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NutLoose
4th Apr 2018, 14:25
Two scumbags break into a 79 year olds home to rob it, one of them is armed with a screwdriver, they force him into the kitchen a scuffle breaks out, he kills one of them defending himself and now he is remanded in custody facing a murder charge!

Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183)

He wouldn't be facing anything if they hadn't broke into his house and assaulted him in the first place . I would thank him for his community service! well done that man, just a shame the other is still at large.

funfly
4th Apr 2018, 14:34
I can understand that where one person kills another, in whatever circumstances, then there are procedures that have to be attended to and might involve the arrest of the culprit. What I am surprised at is the charge of Murder rather than Manslaughter and the need to retain the man in custody.

I would thank him for his community service! well done that man

I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial. That's mob lynching and belongs in the Southern States of the US 100 years ago.

goudie
4th Apr 2018, 14:40
Definitely something isn’t quite right here. I agree a charge of murder as opposed to manslaughter, seems extreme. Something we don’t know, perhaps?

k3k3
4th Apr 2018, 14:43
He hasn't been charged, he's been arrested on suspicion of murder. He's probably been taken to the police station, and as it was the middle of the night any interviews wouldn't have started until the morning.

VP959
4th Apr 2018, 14:49
As k3k3 says, the police had little choice but to arrest him on suspicion of murder, which is much the same as I speculated in this earlier reply on another thread about this: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411282-uk-politics-hamsterwheel-714.html#post10107067

NutLoose
4th Apr 2018, 14:49
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial. That's mob lynching and belongs in the Southern States of the US 100 years ago.

No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.

VP959
4th Apr 2018, 14:56
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.

The law says you can use reasonable force to try to prevent someone committing a crime, I believe. "reasonable" is the usual test, "in the view of the man on the Clapham omnibus".

In this case a man died following a struggle, that was part of a robbery. It may have been accidental that he got stabbed with his own weapon, it may have been deliberate and he was stabbed with another weapon. One might be considered reasonable, in self-defence, the other may well not be considered reasonable at all, and result in a charge being brought.

Personally, as I wrote on the other thread, I think we should have the right, in law, to protect our own homes, much as some states in the US have such a right in law. At the moment we don't, other than the "apprehend using reasonable force" that seems allowable. Killing someone who is carrying out a robbery most probably isn't reasonable force, unless it happens under certain circumstances, as Tony Martin found out when he shot and killed a burglar.

TURIN
4th Apr 2018, 14:56
Two scumbags break into a 79 year olds home to rob it, one of them is armed with a screwdriver, they force him into the kitchen a scuffle breaks out, he kills one of them defending himself and now he is remanded in custody facing a murder charge!

NUTLOOSE, may I enquire as to where you have ascertained these 'facts'?

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S FACING A MURDER CHARGE?


If someone is found in a house dead then of course there will be arrests. It's procedure to do so. If the 'facts' as you have stated them turnout to be accurate then of course the 78 yr old should be free to go but until the 'facts' are known, this is how things are done.

funfly
4th Apr 2018, 14:58
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.

Totally agree with you.
I regret that I responded that way as there was a thread on here recently about a US man who had shot a burglar and I was disgusted by the response of many posters with the "shoot 'em all, it's what they deserve" attitude.

Andy_S
4th Apr 2018, 15:08
No I am not, what I am saying is if you have an intruder in your property, I believe you should have the right to protect yourself and your property by any reasonable means you seem fit to stop that happening, and as he was being assaulted by two younger intruders, one being armed, he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.

I believe the law does allow reasonable force to be used in defence of your property.

That does mean, though, that there has to be a process to decide if this is indeed what has happened.

It might well be that the CPS decide not to press charges in this case.

ImageGear
4th Apr 2018, 15:32
The problem arises from what is judged to be reasonable force and what were the intentions of the criminals.

The Criminals: If a weapon is carried, it must have been their intention to use it, either to deter any resistance or to eliminate any witness/s to the crime. (If you want to own a gun, be assured that you are comfortable with the outcomes when required to use it.)

The Property Owner: Had no perception that he was about to be burgled. He was not in possession of a defensive weapon at the time of the burglar's entry (assumed).

He was obviously threatened with stabbing. (He did not know whether it was to deter him from resisting or to remove him as a witness, or some other reason of insanity, were they terrorists?

Was he allowed to leave the scene freely and without injury? I suspect not. Consequently, self-defence takes on a whole new meaning.

Not Guilty M'lud.

IG

Wan Wei Luke
4th Apr 2018, 15:55
Quote from the BBC news website:
He said there had been a "definite improvement" on tackling burglaries in the area thanks to an active Neighbourhood Watch scheme.

Certainly has...

Icare9
4th Apr 2018, 16:14
Well, there certainly will be an improvement from now on.
Seems a rather extreme attitude by the Police on the face of it.

Let's just see what criminal record the deceased has, and what the Police will do to protect the man attacked, and local residents.

I can't imagine what terror the chap must have been in, to be manhandled, threatened and woken up in the middle of the night to find two aggressive intruders in his property.

Concours77
4th Apr 2018, 16:17
This may be down to vocabulary. I speak and write merkin. There is a difference between “Murder” and “Homicide”.

Homicide sounds dire. It needn’t be. It means: death at the hands of another.

Even in the US there are constraints against using deadly force, even in defense.

Keep this at the tip of your tongue when asked what happened in your home, and the intruder is shot dead.

“I feared for my life, and shot...”

Mr Mac
4th Apr 2018, 16:37
I remember living in Joburg in the late 70,s with 3 other UK work students, when we got a visit from the local Police who came to see if we were settling in ok, and to make sure were were aware of local crime rate. We were surprised to be asked if we had thought of buying a gun for self defence (he recommended a 9mm) which we had not. Out of interest we asked what the rules where regards discharging the weapon, and were some what surprised at the answer. Basically we were told you have to fire two warning shots before aiming at the person, but the officer then said "Ach dont worry about that, just make sure you fire 3 shots ! " We did not take his advise and survived our tour un-burgled, but I must admit to having had a gun elsewhere when I have worked in Africa for longer spells.

Regards
Mr Mac

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Apr 2018, 16:53
he should therefore not unreasonably be allowed to use whatever force he deems fit to stop that happening without fear of legal recrimination.
However what one is allowed to use is whatever force the law deems fit. And on the face of it this case does sound a little unlikely, so the chances are, as others have said, there are things we don't know yet.

B Fraser
4th Apr 2018, 16:55
I had a similar discussion with a friendly policeman. The advice was to fire three bullets with two of them ending up in the ceiling. It doesn't matter which order they are fired as you have a plausible story that warnings were given before firing the fatal shot.

Tankertrashnav
4th Apr 2018, 16:57
A lot of heat on this thread but I think that in these circumstances the police are only doing what they have to do. The fact that this gentleman has been taken into custody does not mean that he will be charged and as Andy _S says it will be a for the DPP to decide whether to proceed with a prosecution, during which time the chap will almost certainly be on bail.

Personally, if the facts are as have been reported, I would think that it is highly unlikely that he will face any charges. Let's just wait and see before starting to froth at the mouth!

John_Reid
4th Apr 2018, 17:57
I'm sorry to rain on your parade but what do you think this is? Injustice??

Come On get a grip. We can't have a 79 year old hooligan killing people, in the course of trying to protect his disabled wife and himself.. People who are out and about armed with tools of the trade, looking for ways to feed their habit. Well look at the unsociable hours they work.

Isn't the law just marvelous and it protects you all the way? Anyway.

BirdmanBerry
4th Apr 2018, 18:29
I seem to remember the police/CPS will look at what weapon you used and where in the house to see if it was self defence as such, and I read this man was forced into his kitchen so a knife would be readily available.

If on the other hand, he had a knife by his bedside then he may not be so lucky.

Pontius Navigator
4th Apr 2018, 19:09
The last I heard he was still in custody. From his photograph he looks a fit and healthy man. Nevertheless a 40 year age difference must count for something.

As I alluded to before, his experience might be a negative. For instance an ex Soldier or SF would be less susceptible to intimidation and better in control of his reactions. OTOH ST are trained to use two bullets to be sure.

Having used a knife, was it a single blow or multiple blows? Did the second man run or remain a threat? Where was the impact?

goudie
4th Apr 2018, 19:10
As an elderly chap who lives on his own, I often wonder what my reaction would be if confronted by a burglar. If threatened, my instinct would be to lash out and if something useful was close to hand I’d probably try to use it. Sounds easy but none of us knows what we’d really do, the adrenaline takes over and it’s fight or flight! The latter is the safest option, I suppose, if it’s possible.

I used to have a baseball bat in the wardrobe, many years ago. Chatting to a copper, I knew,in my local, I told him. His advice was, don’t strike the intruders head, aim for knees or shoulders!

funfly
4th Apr 2018, 19:23
As an elderly chap who lives on his own, I often wonder what my reaction would be if confronted by a burglar. If threatened, my instinct would be to lash out and if something useful was close to hand I’d probably try to use it. Sounds easy but none of us knows what we’d really do, the adrenaline takes over and it’s fight or flight! The latter is the safest option, I suppose, if it’s possible.

I think you are right, however I would add that if I attacked an intruder for whatever reason, and he ended up dead, I would expect to be interviewed by the police. I would like to think that the death was not intentional on my part, i.e. I did not kill as a punishment but as part of my actions to protect myself and my loved ones.

The claim of one poster here that letting the due course of the law take charge is in some way 'Mamby Pamby' is just not acceptable but seems to reflect the attitudes of many in the Southern States of the US who claim that they will take the laws into their own hands and meet out their own kind of justice.

D SQDRN 97th IOTC
4th Apr 2018, 19:55
Is not the correct test
The force used can be disproportionate (but not grossly disproportionate) so long as in the circumstances it was reasonable

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/high-court-rules-homeowners-can-use-disproportionate-force-against-intruders-a3158101.html

S43 Crime and Courts Act 2013
Use of force in self-defence at place of residence

(1)Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (use of reasonable force for purposes of self-defence etc) is amended as follows.
(2)Before subsection (6) (force not regarded as reasonable if it was disproportionate) insert—
“(5A)In a householder case, the degree of force used by D is not to be regarded as having been reasonable in the circumstances as D believed them to be if it was grossly disproportionate in those circumstances.”

Curious Pax
4th Apr 2018, 20:13
Others will know better than I, but I seem to recall that when a similar event happened a year or 2 back the authorities stated that arresting someone in these circumstances is actually a tool to protect the homeowner as it ensures that they are properly represented by a solicitor when interviewed. This is to try and make sure they don’t say something to the police that forces a charge to be made, when careful answering of any questions ensures that the CPS deciding that no prosecution is justified.

I prefer to live in a society where for all its faults, the police don’t automatically take the word of someone who has killed without investigating further. That doesn’t mean that prosecution is required if it was justified as described earlier in the thread.

katya2607
4th Apr 2018, 21:09
Whilst house sitting in deepest Suffolk. Should the 5 German/Belgian Shepherds downstairs fail to deter the punks, then I was advised by the local plod to shoot below the knee caps! Here in the New Forest I have a spare wooden rolling pin next to the alarm alert. In my previous life I was a dab hand at throwing the javelin.

4mastacker
4th Apr 2018, 21:14
[QUOTE=goudie;10107440].......................I used to have a baseball bat in the wardrobe, many years ago. ............/QUOTE]

A BFO Maglite torch fitted with type D batteries, could be as effective as a baseball bat and one could justify its presence in the bedroom as emergency lighting.

IFMU
4th Apr 2018, 21:20
Sometimes I think the sole purpose of Jet Blast is to convince me to never go to the UK.

funfly
4th Apr 2018, 21:57
IFMU
Maybe you're right

Mac the Knife
4th Apr 2018, 22:00
He probably picked up a kitchen-knife and stabbed the intruder.

Since the intruder only had a screwdriver (and we don't know how long it was) I think that in the current climate he will be very lucky to escape a manslaughter conviction, but with a suspended sentence. Bound-over "...not to do it again...) for five/ten years.

The dead man's criminal record (or not) is irrelevant.

Mac

[How long before we have restrictions on the length of screwdrivers allowed to be sold?]

:cool:

Tankertrashnav
4th Apr 2018, 22:45
IMFU - I should avoid parts of London at the moment (same advice for Philadelphia) . Otherwise the chances of coming to harm for the average citizen in the UK are vanishingly small.

Krystal n chips
5th Apr 2018, 07:17
IMFU - I should avoid parts of London at the moment (same advice for Philadelphia) . Otherwise the chances of coming to harm for the average citizen in the UK are vanishingly small.

As TTN says, if you do visit our green and pleasant shores you have more chance of being clattered by some drunk or irresponsible driver than you do of coming to harm otherwise.



" The last I heard he was still in custody. From his photograph he looks a fit and healthy man. Nevertheless a 40 year age difference must count for something

He does look remarkably fit an healthy doesn't he....and he possibly is....but, it does beg the question as to how contemporary the photo actually is.

Anyway, most of the rags have, obviously, picked up on this story to judge from today's headlines irrespective of the facts, facts can always be considered an inconvenience for some outlets ( and JB ) as to what happened.

MungoP
5th Apr 2018, 07:25
It's obvious that more training is needed for people to ensure that they are better able to protect themselves and their homes from scumbags. That one of these ar£soles should have escaped unharmed is totally unacceptable.

dsc810
5th Apr 2018, 07:49
Anyway, most of the rags have, obviously, picked up on this story to judge from today's headlines irrespective of the facts, facts can always be considered an inconvenience for some outlets ( and JB ) as to what happened.

His advisers/friends are doing an excellent job
Get the details and their side out into the public domain ASAP.
Saturate newspaper coverage
If he is ever charged then discussion has to cease under our court sub-judice rules
So you need max publicity NOW

Make it so it becomes impossible for the filth/CPS to charge him
Make it so everyone in the UK knows the story.
You need to play the police at their own game.
Be quiet and cooperative and you will end up in Jail.

TWT
5th Apr 2018, 08:25
It's no surprise that anyone is arrested when there is a dead body involved. The police have to investigate the circumstances surrounding the death and make a determination based on the evidence.

If the homeowner told them he defended himself with a knife, they have to verify the forensics, check CCTV, etc. They can't just let him go at the scene, and rely solely on his version of events.

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 09:17
His advisers/friends are doing an excellent job
Get the details and their side out into the public domain ASAP.
Saturate newspaper coverage
If he is ever charged then discussion has to cease under our court sub-judice rules
So you need max publicity NOW

Make it so it becomes impossible for the filth/CPS to charge him
Make it so everyone in the UK knows the story.
You need to play the police at their own game.
Be quiet and cooperative and you will end up in Jail.

Given the saturation media coverage of this incident, were he to be charged, where would they find 12 people who know nothing about the case to sit on a jury and give him a fair trial - fair that is from the point of view of the CJS who in bringing the case to trial would be expecting a guilty verdict.

MungoP
5th Apr 2018, 09:24
Two guys come into the house with intent to burglarise it.. discover someone is home. What are we supposed to infer ? That they made a mistake with the address ? That they're there to fix the plumbing ? That they're part of a reality TV show ?
By even being there they've demonstrated that they're a couple of ar£soles who can't be trusted and maybe capable of anything. From the moment that they've entered the house their fate should be in the hands of the house-owner and if he / she feels like blowing them apart with a 12 bore then I'm on the side of the house-owner and.. here's an idea...
DON'T BREAK INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES.

RAT 5
5th Apr 2018, 09:25
Considering the rise in knife crime in UK, and London especially, I wonder how long it will be before one of these 'knifies' picks on the wrong guy and gets the tables turned; only for the 'self-defender' to end up in the dock?
It seems to take 'reality' into fantasy land expecting someone, in the heat of the moment of self-defence of themselves or property, to give sound consideration to "OMG I must not beat 7 bells out of this guy, or even worse stick his own knife in him as he was attempting to do to me."

akindofmagic
5th Apr 2018, 09:42
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial.

It's not about a "penalty". It's all about the right to protect your life and property (based on the victim's perception of the level of danger being presented to both) using any and all force necessary. The law is completely wrong on this: the use of lethal force should simply never be considered "grossly disproportionate" when defending life and/or property inside your home.

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 09:43
Two guys come into the house with intent to burglarise it.. discover someone is home. What are we supposed to infer ? That they made a mistake with the address ? That they're there to fix the plumbing ? That they're part of a reality TV show ?
By even being there they've demonstrated that they're a couple of ar£soles who can't be trusted and maybe capable of anything. From the moment that they've entered the house their fate should be in the hands of the house-owner and if he / she feels like blowing them apart with a 12 bore then I'm on the side of the house-owner and.. here's an idea...
DON'T BREAK INTO PEOPLE'S HOUSES.

That's sending us down the slippery slope towards how Americans view self defence, and how people to blast seven bells out of an intruder with a licenced assault rifle get away pretty much scot free.

I agree that if you chose to enter someone's property, armed with something, in this case a screwdriver which you intend to use to defend yourself whilst in said house uninvited, then if you encounter the owner / occupier you must accept the risk that you may meet some force in order to eject you. The the extent of the force used to eject the offenders, and the message it sends to the public at large that is questionable. For me, firearms is a step to far, a kitchen knife that is to hand, probably proportionate.

But as in all cases, do we believe the media, and how much do we not know / have not been old accurately? That will only come out if and when a case goes to court.

VP959
5th Apr 2018, 09:49
As was predicted earlier, the man hasn't been charged and has been released on police bail whilst they make further enquiries.

That suggests that the police may well believe that he acted in self-defence, or at least within the law as it stands, and that they either don't have enough evidence to detain him for longer or to charge him. It looks very much to me as if the police have dealt with this in the way they should have.

I well remember being arrested, with my mother, by the police two days after my father died. We knew he had died as a consequence of a long and debilitating illness, but his brother didn't believe it, so made a complaint, an accusation that my mother and I had conspired to kill him. As my father was only 43 years old when he died, the police had no choice but to arrest us, interview us and release us later on police bail, pending the outcome of the post mortem. No charges were ever brought, and I have to say that even then (this was in 1972) the police were exceptionally sympathetic, polite and aware that they were dealing with a sensitive case when they interviewed us. Neither of us were distressed by the police actions at all, it was clear they felt uncomfortable about what they had to do. We were both bloody angry at what my uncle had done, and the family rift remained for decades afterwards, and it's only in the last few years, long after my uncle's death, that I'm on reasonable terms with my cousins (who, it turns out, had no idea of the accusations their father had made back then).

MungoP
5th Apr 2018, 10:06
That's sending us down the slippery slope towards how Americans view self defence, and how people to blast seven bells out of an intruder with a licenced assault rifle get away pretty much scot free.

I don't consider that to be 'Down a slippery slope'.. we should adopt it.

I agree that if you chose to enter someone's property, armed with something, in this case a screwdriver which you intend to use to defend yourself whilst in said house uninvited,


I'm amazed at your unique ability to know the mind of the burglar and just why he's carrying a screw-driver... it must be very reassuring to know that one or both of these scum-bags is not about to leap forward and stick the screwdriver into your stomach.

Katamarino
5th Apr 2018, 10:21
I don't consider that to be 'Down a slippery slope'.. we should adopt it.

I'm unsure why anybody here seems to think that the death of one of these burglars is a bad thing? Can anyone present an objective argument as to why we'd be better off with the burglar alive? Not one that relies on "Ooo, somebody dying hurts my emotions!"

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 10:25
I'm unsure why anybody here seems to think that the death of one of these burglars is a bad thing? Can anyone present an objective argument as to why we'd be better off with the burglar alive? Not one that relies on "Ooo, somebody dying hurts my emotions!"

If these sorts of views are prevalent in British society today, then it just reinforces my opinion of just how unpleasant a country we are becoming.

Imagine that a 10 year old kid scrumping apples from your orchard at the bottom of the garden would be subject to a summary death penalty in the same, casual manner.

Katamarino
5th Apr 2018, 10:27
If these sorts of views are prevalent in British society today, then it just reinforces my opinion of just how unpleasant a country we are becoming.

Imagine that a 10 year old kid scrumping apples from your orchard at the bottom of the garden would be subject to a summary death penalty in the same, casual manner.

Thanks for the entirely irrelevant comparison, but I'm not sure why you brought it up.

bugged on the right
5th Apr 2018, 10:35
For God's sake Mr Notts, a 10 year old nicking your apples is not inside your locked house in the early hours of the morning armed with a screwdriver that he intends to stick you with if you object. My opinion is that if you are in that position then you have forfeited your rights in society. It is your decision.

akindofmagic
5th Apr 2018, 10:44
If these sorts of views are prevalent in British society today, then it just reinforces my opinion of just how unpleasant a country we are becoming.

I think a majority of people would think it deeply unpleasant that someone can face arrest and a potential murder charge for defending themselves and their property.

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 10:48
For God's sake Mr Notts, a 10 year old nicking your apples is not inside your locked house in the early hours of the morning armed with a screwdriver that he intends to stick you with if you object. My opinion is that if you are in that position then you have forfeited your rights in society. It is your decision.

I'm glad the extreme right wing brigade has some limits.:E

My opinion is similar to your's with regard to someone being in my house armed with a weapon, with intent to use it. Where I diverge is the suggestion earlier in the thread that shooting people is acceptable; I believe it is not, others clearly disagree. Reasonable force is key, and again, as I wrote earlier, if confronted with a screwdriver wielding burglar, if I had a knife to hand I may have been inclined to use it, with the intention of frightening the person in to making a smart exit, not with the intent of killing them.

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 10:50
I think a majority of people would think it deeply unpleasant that someone can face arrest and a potential murder charge for defending themselves and their property.

And after interview, if I read correctly above, released on police bail. The police had little choice, but it looks as though common sense has prevailed in this particular case.

MungoP
5th Apr 2018, 10:54
Strangely enough if someone is killed by a wild animal we have no issue with it being hunted down and killed yet an animal is doing no more than following the instincts it was born with in trying to survive from other predators while managing to get food on a daily basis.
Conversely a human has been gifted with a brain that can analyse between right and wrong and make considered choices so knows exactly what he or she is doing and chooses to do wrong yet the liberal twats fall all over themselves to defend the scum while being more than ready to criticise decent people.
The only thing wrong with the death penalty is that we make too much of it. All that solemnity, curtains parting to show some arse on a table and priests standing by.
Let's first treat the audience to a documentary on exactly how the criminal kidnapped raped and tortured for hours or even days multiple women who must have gone out of their minds wondering what their families and friends were doing unaware of what was happening to them. And then consider the horror of what those families and friends have suffered on learning what the victim endured.
No.. screw the theatricals.. Verdict guilty proven beyond any doubt with modern forensics. Into the back of the van, driven out to the land-fill site and a bullet in the brain.. the scavengers can do the rest.

Curious Pax
5th Apr 2018, 10:57
I think a majority of people would think it deeply unpleasant that someone can face arrest and a potential murder charge for defending themselves and their property.

To play devil’s advocate - how do you know he was defending himself and his property? Should the police just take his word for it and close the case? As mentioned before, arresting someone on suspicion a crime may have been committed is a long way from any charge.

Curious Pax
5th Apr 2018, 11:03
Verdict guilty proven beyond any doubt with modern forensics.

Modern forensics involve human interaction, ergo they are not guaranteed 100% foolproof. On that basis there will be executions of the innocent - maybe only 1 in 10,000, but that’s still 1 too many in my book. I’ve asked this question before, but don’t recall ever getting a straight answer from a death penalty advocate: would you be prepared to be executed, or see one of your children die as a result of a mistaken conviction? If not then why should anyone else?

mikemmb
5th Apr 2018, 11:09
Perhaps there is room for some sort of middle ground here?

What if a burgler who entered a property with the premeditated intent to commit a crime would be deemed as having forfeited "some" of their normal rights.
Clearly lots of head scratching to do in order to implement this but worth a thought?

Different case entirely, but reminds me of a situation where someone contacted their local infants school to tell them they where wasting electricity by leaving the classroom lights on every night. School replied that the low level desks are a trip hazard and they had a duty of care towards any potential burgler!

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 11:15
Different case entirely, but reminds me of a situation where someone contacted their local infants school to tell them they where wasting electricity by leaving the classroom lights on every night. School replied that the low level desks are a trip hazard and they had a duty of care towards any potential burgler!

If head teachers are expected to do risk assessments for these kinds of things it's no wonder they are leaving the teaching profession in droves!

bugged on the right
5th Apr 2018, 11:19
I'm glad the extreme right wing brigade has some limits.:E

My opinion is similar to your's with regard to someone being in my house armed with a weapon, with intent to use it. Where I diverge is the suggestion earlier in the thread that shooting people is acceptable; I believe it is not, others clearly disagree. Reasonable force is key, and again, as I wrote earlier, if confronted with a screwdriver wielding burglar, if I had a knife to hand I may have been inclined to use it, with the intention of frightening the person in to making a smart exit, not with the intent of killing them.

If you infer that I am a right wing extremist because I believe people should take responsibility for what happens to themselves when they offend then I put up my hands.
What I object to though is being described as part of a brigade. I am part of an entire society.

cattletruck
5th Apr 2018, 11:43
Just this Monday, the kids from down the road were looking for their lost dog and cat. After calling out for them they found them both trapped deep inside my 95 y/o nut job neighbour's house.

At the time I was doing some work on my car so witnessed the whole thing unfold.

The young boy was concerned enough that he illegally entered this neighbour's property negotiating junk and thick shrub growth as he walked along the laneway on the side of the house to get to where his pets were trapped. At this stage I heard the backdoor of the house shut, Mr Nut job was home and I assume had probably gone inside to watch from a window rather than help. The kid did his best to coerce his pets out of there but couldn't, so he left and called his dad.

The kid's dad arrived and I asked him to try and push an unattached gate used to block the laneway out a little. He tried but it would budge. He left and came back with a tin of cat food. This worked and he rescued the cat. The young boy later returned on his own and this time managed to somehow rescue the dog.

After things got quite for 30 minutes Mr Nut job came out to see where they had been through his property. The next day, Mr Nut job positions his ghetto blaster blaring full blast along our dividing fence and starts digging up all the growth in the laneway. This continues on and off well past midnight minus the music. The following day I have a look over the fence and notice he is up to something, there are wires, rods and bricks in some kind of arrangement. Is he boobytrapping the laneway?

The young boy that entered his property was innocent and only doing it for the love of his pets. What he didn't know is how unstable this nut job neighbour of mine is who has mental health issues and is in constant trouble with the law.

Glad it didn't turn out for the worse.

Meanwhile, 3 days after the event Mr Nut job is still occupying himself with activity in that laneway.

Stan Woolley
5th Apr 2018, 11:51
Meanwhile, 3 days after the event Mr Nut job is still occupying himself with activity in that laneway.

Surely he must take some time away to post on Jet Blast. ;)

cattletruck
5th Apr 2018, 11:56
Surely he must take some time away to post on Jet Blast.

I wish he would, The pros on JB can soothe any savage.

Lonewolf_50
5th Apr 2018, 12:07
That's sending us down the slippery slope towards how Americans view self defence, and how people to blast seven bells out of an intruder with a licenced assault rifle get away pretty much scot free. It's referred to as the castle doctrine; there is legal precedent for that, so I suggest that you educate yourself rather than foam at the mouth.

ShyTorque
5th Apr 2018, 12:14
Sometimes I think the sole purpose of Jet Blast is to convince me to never go to the UK.

Correct, we want no violent foreigners coming here... ;-)

ATNotts
5th Apr 2018, 12:14
It's referred to as the castle doctrine; there is legal precedent for that, so I suggest that you educate yourself rather than foam at the mouth.

It matters not what it's called, it just doesn't sit comfortably on this side of the Atlantic, and not, I suspect, in some of the more liberal thinking states of the USA. However if it works for the majority in the US that's absolutely fine for you.

Katamarino
5th Apr 2018, 12:19
It matters not what it's called, it just doesn't sit comfortably on this side of the Atlantic, and not, I suspect, in some of the more liberal thinking states of the USA. However if it works for the majority in the US that's absolutely fine for you.

I think the reaction in the papers and elsewhere about this gentleman's arrest show that there's a very large proportion on this side of the Atlantic who'd like to see the law more on the side of the victim than the criminal than is currently the case.

As you say though, it does look like things are going the right way in this case, and the initial reaction was over-hyped.

VP959
5th Apr 2018, 12:30
The bottom line is that if someone is killed by the direct actions of another person, no matter what the circumstances, the police are duty bound to investigate, collect and assess the evidence and to do that they need to arrest the person who committed the act in order to interview them under caution, as much for the protection of the man whose house was burgled as anything else. As soon as someone has been arrested they have a right to legal representation before they are interviewed - they have no such right before they are arrested (although they could choose to instruct a solicitor if they wished).

In this case there were three people who knew what happened, possibly four, the man that was arrested, the man that's now dead, and possibly the other perpetrator and maybe the wife of the man that was arrested.

Of these, the only two the police could interview were the man that was arrested and his wife, who possibly didn't see anything. The dead can't speak and the other burglar ran off and hasn't, AFAIK, been caught yet.

ShyTorque
5th Apr 2018, 12:33
If confronted in the middle of the night (or daytime) by someone wielding anything that might be construed as a weapon, such as a screwdriver, I doubt many would be inclined to get involved in any meaningful sort of polite conversation! Maybe some here have never been in harm's way.

"Excuse me sir, it's three o'clock in the morning - have you come to read the gas meter, mend the tumble drier or are you wielding that weapon for any other particular reason?"

Sounds like some Monty Python sketch.

NutLoose
5th Apr 2018, 14:12
I remember the wise words of an old RAF Rockape, you are required to shout out warnings at any suspected terrorist attacking, but if you shoot him dead, who is to say you didn't and that he ignored them. :O

goudie
5th Apr 2018, 14:12
Even if the killing of someone is within the law, I imagine it must be extremely upsetting for the average person to realise he/she has taken a life, albeit unintentionally...hopefully.

NutLoose
5th Apr 2018, 14:18
Not half as upsetting as lying there in a pool of blood feeling your's ebbing away.

MungoP
5th Apr 2018, 14:50
Fact is as far as I'm concerned when someone decides to bring misery and pain to an innocent person then their lives don't matter and if they find themselves lying on the kitchen floor watching their lifeblood ebbing away then they'll have learned not to do it again.

finfly1
5th Apr 2018, 15:38
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial. That's mob lynching and belongs in the Southern States of the US 100 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Equating a life and death struggle of an aged individual in his own home with mob lynching is not only an opinion vs a fact, but, imo it is an absolutely unsupportable opinion.

goudie
5th Apr 2018, 15:41
You’re assuming that the burglar intended to kill the chap. We’ll never know.
Anyway, however tough you wish to sound, killing someone, under these circumstances, would have a rather traumatic effect on most normal people IMHO.

VP959
5th Apr 2018, 15:51
One problem is that if you're attacked by someone with a weapon (purportedly a screwdriver in this case) and you counter attack to defend yourself with a knife (which is what has been suggested in reporting) you have no way of knowing how serious the injury you inflict with the knife may be. Stick a knife pretty much anywhere in the main part of someone's body and there is a fair chance you're gong to cause a fatal injury.

If what we've been told is true, then it seems reasonable to me to counter an attack with a screwdriver with a knife - both could inflict similar serious injury. The law allows disproportionate force to be used in a case like this, where the person being attacked is acting in the heat of the moment. As above, I doubt that anyone rests easily having taken a life, even under circumstances like this.

Tankertrashnav
5th Apr 2018, 16:42
The guy is now out on bail. The sequence of events - arrest, detention, interview and then release on bail was always going to be what was going to happen. Does anyone seriously maintain that confronted with a near corpse on the pavement the police were ever going to tell the householder to go back to bed and sleep well? If so they are living in a fantasy world.

It all seems to be going to plan so far.

akindofmagic
5th Apr 2018, 17:30
I am sure that you are not suggesting that the penalty for burglary is death without a trial.

I'd personally be comfortable with the death penalty being an option for burglary. It is one of the most disgusting, cowardly crimes, and can cause serious mental anguish to the victims. I would concede that the scumbags (if caught alive) are entitled to a fair trial before they are hanged.

Pontius Navigator
5th Apr 2018, 17:48
If I became aware of an intruder climbing my stairs, and I was in a position to react, I would strike them as hard as I could with what ever came to hand. End of . . .

gruntie
5th Apr 2018, 19:07
The deceased burglar’s cousin was just interviewed on the BBC news, having just delivered a bunch of flowers to the site. As expected, she said what a ‘lovely bloke’ he was and it was outrageous that he’d snuffed it. God help us.

Icare9
5th Apr 2018, 19:11
I'm with PN on this - Anyone in my home uninvited whatever time of day, but especially at night deserves everything I can hit them with.
Working in London and travelling home in the dark, I always resolved that if I was accosted/mugged etc then I would ensure that at least one was injured, hopefully sufficiently to need treatment leading to the tracing of his accomplices, or at least to think twice about his choice of occupation.

Now I'm retired, with a wife in poor health, I can relate precisely to this event and I'd be annoyed if the police took me away from my distressed wife and leaving her wondering what had happened.

Trespass on my property at YOUR own risk - I'll belt you first and ask questions when you come round, trussed and oven ready......... then I'll perhaps call the police, if you leak blood on my carpet.

goudie
5th Apr 2018, 19:20
Even if the intruder(s) or mugger(s) is/are 18 stone 6+footers...!
‘Having a go’ could be detrimental to your health, however justified.

Pontius Navigator
5th Apr 2018, 19:28
Even if the intruder(s) or mugger(s) is/are 18 stone 6+footers...!
‘Having a go’ could be detrimental to your health, however justified.

And therein lies the problem that saw millions sent to the gas chambers.

If that 18 stoner said relax, just give me your valuables, then I might just do that. If, OTOH it was obvious that he was going to deliver violence on me then at least I would try and get at least one blow in.

goudie
5th Apr 2018, 19:50
Rather an extreme comparison PN but I admire your courage.

Some 20yrs ago I was attacked in a nearby town by a bloke, who’s drive I had used momentarily to reverse in, in a very narrow street. As I got out of my car 100yds away he came up and punched me in the face, several times, knocking me down, saying “don’t come on my property again” He then walked off. He was 40something and much bigger than I was. I was too dazed to retaliate anyway.
I reported it to the local police and when I told them where he lived they looked at each other and one said, “good job you didn’t retaliate sir, he’d probably have inflicted serious injury on you, he’s the local nutter!” I didn’t press charges though they did have a word with him.
,

Mac the Knife
5th Apr 2018, 20:28
"Stick a knife pretty much anywhere in the main part of someone's body and there is a fair chance you're going to cause a fatal injury."

Not so. Most of the chaps here who are stabbed "…in the main part of [their] body…" (and we have a lot more than you do) survive (with a little surgical help) and walk out till the next time.

Eventually of course, they run out of luck…just like Mr. Vincent.

Mac

:cool:

They do still have some sort of surgeons in the UK I believe?

Doors to Automatic
5th Apr 2018, 22:33
Absolutely outrageous that this victim of crime was arrested. I don't think there is anything in this world (except for maybe Corbyn/ Chakrabhati etc) that makes me angrier.

Tankertrashnav
5th Apr 2018, 22:50
I heard the interview or the deceased burglar's cousin. As you say he was a wonderful bloke, loved his mum,kind to animals and would do anything for anyone

Including break into an old bloke's house and attack him with a screwdriver.

When pressed she did admit that he was "troubled".

Calm down Doors to Automatic. He's been taken into custody for less than 24 hours, he's had a chance to see a solicitor and get his story on record using legal advice. He hasn't been charged with anything, and I'll bet a pound to a squashed sausage that he wont be. Probably even got a couple of free meals!

Gertrude the Wombat
5th Apr 2018, 22:53
Calm down Doors to Automatic. He's been taken into custody for less than 24 hours, he's had a chance to see a solicitor and get his story on record using legal advice. He hasn't been charged with anything, and I'll bet a pound to a squashed sausage that he wont be. Probably even got a couple of free meals!
And somewhere free to sleep, if the house was still a crime scene and the alternative was a hotel.

tdracer
5th Apr 2018, 23:10
Is the definition of 'arrested' different on your side of the pond? Because over here it implies the person is suspected of committing a crime and charges are pending. If they were simply taken in to give a statement and answer questions about what happened, it would be reported more along the line of 'was detained for questioning'.
BTW, if someone breaks into my house and doesn't immediately leave when it becomes apparent the dwelling is occupied, I'm going to assume they are armed and intend harm to me and/or my family. At that point I'm willing to use whatever means are available for defense - up to and including lethal force - until they are no longer a threat. That can either mean they depart the premises, or they are no longer capable of presenting a threat - that choice is up to them...

Katamarino
6th Apr 2018, 04:14
I didn’t press charges though they did have a word with him.
,

Why on earth would you not want him charged? That just leaves him free to do it again to the next person.

Krystal n chips
6th Apr 2018, 05:53
Absolutely outrageous that this victim of crime was arrested. I don't think there is anything in this world (except for maybe Corbyn/ Chakrabhati etc) that makes me angrier.

And welcome to the continuation of that well known JB favourite.....the legal system for beginners.

Scenario....police called to burglary, police find body of alleged burglar, police close case there and then and go back to station, write brief report " called to burglary, arr. to find alleged burglar dead, speak to house occupant who said he broke into occupants home. no further action required " .

Fortunately, back in the real world, the legal system isn't quite as simplistic as the JB version,

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/05/man-78-bailed-over-fatal-stabbing-of-suspected-burglar

And a special mention of being arrested to add to the infinite list.

Pontius Navigator
6th Apr 2018, 06:04
Tdracer, over here 'helping the police with their enquiries ' used to be the code for 'we know he dun it just trying to get in to cough it up '

As said above, if arrested you are entire to have a solicitor appointed. If not arrested you need to get your own.

4mastacker
6th Apr 2018, 06:45
PN,

Switch off your predictive text! :ok:

KelvinD
6th Apr 2018, 07:14
TDracer: There are a couple of advantages to the arrested person by being arrested:
Once arrested, a clock starts and the police have 24 hours to charge or release you.
Every interview will be conducted under caution (a bit like Miranda)
You have the right to call a lawyer and the police have to wait until you have seen your lawyer before starting the interview.
Your interview(s) will be recorded, removing the old time copper's trait of slightly skewing the language used when writing up a paper version of the interview.
Alternatives available, depending on the circumstances, include taking a written statement at the scene, asking you to come with them to the police station to give a statement and then, if the police are not happy, they can arrest you and take you off to the nick.
I don't have any more idea of what actually happened than anyone else on this forum but one thing has struck me: all this hype about the burglar having a screwdriver as a weapon won't last 5 minutes once the investigation gets seriously under way. A screwdriver is the burglar's tool of choice for gaining entry. A good lawyer will argue that and the issue of "having a weapon" will fall away.

Pontius Navigator
6th Apr 2018, 07:18
Kelvin, true to a point. How was he holding it?

sitigeltfel
6th Apr 2018, 07:27
I don't have any more idea of what actually happened than anyone else on this forum but one thing has struck me: all this hype about the burglar having a screwdriver as a weapon won't last 5 minutes once the investigation gets seriously under way. A screwdriver is the burglar's tool of choice for gaining entry. A good lawyer will argue that and the issue of "having a weapon" will fall away.

Try arguing with the goon at airport security that the screwdriver in your hand baggage isn't a weapon, then tell us how you get on!

:rolleyes:

Toadstool
6th Apr 2018, 07:55
Try arguing with the goon at airport security that the screwdriver in your hand baggage isn't a weapon, then tell us how you get on!

:rolleyes:

I'd suggest that you'd have a better chance of arguing away a screwdriver than a sharp blade.

It's quite simple really. An apology followed by confiscation. It would be slightly more awkward with a blade.

Sallyann1234
6th Apr 2018, 08:50
It seems to be assumed in some quarters that the police must have handcuffed the poor guy, shoved him into a car without the 'mind your head', and then threw him down the stairs into a cell.
It's far more likely that the police, having seen exactly what had happened, were very sympathetic to him and his wife and apologised to them that there was a legal procedure that had to be followed. Why would they not treat him with great respect?

Tankertrashnav
6th Apr 2018, 08:57
And welcome to the continuation of that well known JB favourite.....the legal system for beginners.

Have to say this is one of those rare occasions when I have to agree with K & C. There's been enough hot air on here to keep a balloon airborne for days.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Apr 2018, 09:03
Is the definition of 'arrested' different on your side of the pond? Because over here it implies the person is suspected of committing a crime and charges are pending. If they were simply taken in to give a statement and answer questions about what happened, it would be reported more along the line of 'was detained for questioning'.
Over here if you're not arrested you're free to go, so you're not "detained". The intermediate state does exist, along the lines of "would you like to voluntarily accompany me to the police station and make a statement? - by the way, if the answer is no, then I'll arrest you".

Sir Niall Dementia
6th Apr 2018, 09:17
Apparently the little darling who died was a wonderful chap, kind to everyone, loved fluffy kittens

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/05/burglar-killed-pensioners-home-wanted-previous-robbery/

So unfair the nasty little scumbag is dead, the pensioner must be the embodiement of evil to have taken the action he did.

I give thanks for what Richard Osborne-Brooks did. In protecting himself and his wife he has done us all a favour. The only reason he should be in a court room is to hear the Coroner thank him.

SND

radeng
6th Apr 2018, 10:07
Mac said:

They do still have some sort of surgeons in the UK I believe?

Yes, but you have to rely on the A & E department not being overloaded with other cases..........which is frequently not the case.

Screwdriver not a weapon? You should have seen the ones I made at college in 1964 - 1/8 inch diameter hardened silver steel shank, tempered tip, wooden handle and very sharp. Pretty much a stiletto.....that was the one for 8BA screws... those for 6, 4, 2 and 0 BA were bigger, and could well be used to stab people.

akindofmagic
6th Apr 2018, 10:58
A screwdriver is the burglar's tool of choice for gaining entry. A good lawyer will argue that and the issue of "having a weapon" will fall away.

It's not relevant whether it was intended to be used as a weapon or not. What's relevant is the householder's state of mind at the time of the incident, whether he could have reasonably believed that he was in danger (and it seems pretty obvious that confronted in your home by a screwdriver-wielding burglar would meet that test), and with all of that in mind whether or not the force used was "grossly disproportionate". I suspect (hope) that the CPS will come to the conclusion that no offence was committed. To avoid this sort of farcical situation arising in the future however, clearly the law needs to change to permit an absolute right to use up to and including lethal force to defend yourself and your property.

As an aside, in the US, the accomplice would, when caught, be facing a charge of felony murder and the death penalty in some states. I'm not the biggest fan of America, but they do some things correctly.

Impress to inflate
6th Apr 2018, 11:19
As for me, I'm up for buying the old boy a pint and a pat on the shoulder, well doe old boy, you have done Kent and SE London a favour. Robbing pensioners out of £448,000 pounds as well as a string of break and entry, what a top bloke ?

Curious Pax
6th Apr 2018, 12:22
To avoid this sort of farcical situation arising in the future however, clearly the law needs to change to permit an absolute right to use up to and including lethal force to defend yourself and your property.


Why does the law need to change? When someone is found dead in unexplained circumstances the police rightly have a duty to investigate. As has been explained several times, despite the connotations in the minds of some, arresting someone who was involved is actually in their favour. Although there are more limits than in the US, killing a burglar in your own home isn’t necessarily a criminal offence.

akindofmagic
6th Apr 2018, 12:49
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.

Curious Pax
6th Apr 2018, 13:05
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.

And has been mentioned several times, why would you take the word of the homeowner without investigating? As an example, police are called to a dead 25 year old. Homeowner is a 50 year old holding a bloody knife, and there is no dispute that he killed him. Do the police:
A) accept homeowner’s word that it was a burglar, get the body removed and give homeowner the number of a good cleaning company
B) investigate properly to find out what actually happened?

You might say A, but what if B found that the ‘burglar’ was actually someone who got Mr Homeowner’s 16 year old daughter pregnant on a one night stand. Homeowner got him round on the pretext of discussing the situation, but once he was inside buried the carving knife in him?

Must be frustrating that real life is rarely black and white!

Sallyann1234
6th Apr 2018, 13:29
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges.
I doubt that very much. His lawyer will have assured him that once the proper legal formalities are completed he will be free of any charge.

funfly
6th Apr 2018, 15:06
The usual two types of poster in this thread;
"Shoot and kill the bastards they all deserve it and with them dead the community will be that much better off"
and...
"Let the laws of a civilised society take care of the matter"
It's a bit like the Brexit discussion, none will listen to the other.
The first are the 'tough guys' of society, "can take care of myself and my family thank you very much, don't pay much attention to your mamby pamby laws" - personally, I don't very much like this sort of person.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Apr 2018, 16:41
The point is that the poor chap who is the victim here is facing an extremely stressful, anxious wait to find out if he will face charges. An explicit provision in law allowing for an absolute right to use lethal force to protect your home (with no caveats regarding proportionality or reasonableness) would prevent such a situation arising. An intruder in someone’s home should be assumed to have forfeited any and all human rights.
Yeah right. A gatecrasher at a party? Who is tolerated for the first few hours, until they become drunk and (non-violently) noisy, and is then dis-not-invited so becomes an "intruder"?

Rosevidney1
6th Apr 2018, 17:14
funfly wrote: The first are the 'tough guys' of society, "can take care of myself and my family thank you very much, don't pay much attention to your mamby pamby laws" - personally, I don't very much like this sort of person.

Should we assume that you prefer the CAN'T take care of myself OR my family type?
Colour me bemused......

cargosales
6th Apr 2018, 17:29
BBC reporting that this gentleman will face 'No Further Action' = police have done their duty and investigated, as they are obliged to do, but see no reason to take things further.

wiggy
6th Apr 2018, 17:33
Yes, just seen it...hopefully that decision will satisfy most if not all previous posters.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Apr 2018, 17:45
BBC reporting that this gentleman will face 'No Further Action' = police have done their duty and investigated, as they are obliged to do, but see no reason to take things further.
Ie, business as usual, exactly as expected, move along please, nothing to see here.

angels
6th Apr 2018, 18:05
Ie, business as usual, exactly as expected, move along please, nothing to see here.

+1 is too short. But, +1

Viper 7
6th Apr 2018, 18:21
Yeah right. A gatecrasher at a party? Who is tolerated for the first few hours, until they become drunk and (non-violently) noisy, and is then dis-not-invited so becomes an "intruder"?



Essentially, yes. When he is asked politely to leave and refuses to do so, the law should (and does, here) permit you to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to remove him from your property.


This is not the same as finding someone in your home uninvited, holding what you perceive as a weapon with intent that you can quite sensibly assume is contrary to your continued good health. "It was dark, he had a weapon and I feared for my life"


Some states in the US have "castle" or "no duty to retreat" laws that grant folks the right to defend their lives and property. I have to say, I think they are on the right track and I wish sometimes we had similar legislation here in Canada because I think, and most reasonable people would agree that it better reflects the spirit of common law. Consider that for a second, but be careful to separate these rights from the American 2nd amendment argument.


It is always about intent. I intend to live my life in peace and safety in my home, working to provide the means to do so and giving what I can to help other achieve the same. There are criminals who intend to violate this scene and take what I have achieved rather than work for it themselves.


Our problem is that we are not building a society that unequivocally nurtures the first and mercilessly hammers the second.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Apr 2018, 18:51
Essentially, yes. When he is asked politely to leave and refuses to do so, the law should (and does, here) permit you to use whatever force is reasonably necessary to remove him from your property.
Indeed, and I've done so, and that's fine. But I don't want a law which says I'm entitled to shoot him dead for refusing (or being too drunk) to leave.

Once Upon A Time there was this drunk gatecrasher asleep in our bath. We could have picked him up and chucked him out of the house, but it was bloody freezing and he'd have been found dead in the morning. So we called the cops, just to ask for advice.

Cops turned up, took one look at him, "we're not having that in our car", called a van (we were all of half a mile from the cop shop so this didn't take very long). Policemen picked him up, carried him out of the house, put him down on the pavement, and walked away a few yards.

Then they turned round, and said "oh look what we've found someone drunk and incapable in a public place, better arrest him". Took him to the police station, kept him overnight (in the warm, and regularly checked for his safety), gave him breakfast, charged him, fined £30 when he appeared in court a couple of days later (this was a long time ago, think several hundred now). And the guy came round to see us to apologise for having been a pain.

That's the way to do it. Right to kill intruders, no questions asked? FFS.

Tankertrashnav
6th Apr 2018, 19:12
He hasn't been charged with anything, and I'll bet a pound to a squashed sausage that he wont be.

My post #95 - I always knew that quid was safe. I wont miss the squashed sausage either.

RatherBeFlying
6th Apr 2018, 19:35
You can do serious injury with a substantial screwdriver. My favorite would be my Stanley heavy duty quick return. Lots of length and heft.

But the best improvised small weapon is a hammer.

Pontius Navigator
6th Apr 2018, 19:42
And poor Mr Vincent, led astray by his family. Oh, and an ex-professional boxer a gentle giant

Argonautical
6th Apr 2018, 20:23
It has been announced that no charges are being brought against the homeowner. The burglar belonged to a criminal family and I hope they don't take any reprisals against the old guy.

Fareastdriver
6th Apr 2018, 20:34
With his form I don't think that they will try.

Doors to Automatic
6th Apr 2018, 20:47
Thank god that since the Tories toughened up the law in favour of householders, most of these cases end in no further action. I am especially happy that it has happened in this case.

My issue is that this poor chap was incarcerated for 24 hours having just been the victim of a violent attack in his own home in the middle of the night by two criminals a lot younger than him.

Anyone who thinks this is acceptable in a civilised society has a screw loose.

I am not for a minute saying that either grossly disproportionate force is acceptable (such as for example a beating in the gatecrasher example given) nor am I saying that Police shouldn't conduct a full investigation.

But it should not be beyond the wit of investigators to establish within say 1-2 hours of arriving what happened and if there is anything which doesn't quite add up.

G-CPTN
6th Apr 2018, 20:54
I guess that one reason for arresting the householder and removing them from the premises is to obviate the possibility of adjusting the crime scene before it has been thoroughly examined by SOCO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scenes_of_crime_officer).

Tankertrashnav
6th Apr 2018, 21:13
Sorry Doors to Automatic I'm going to have to admit to a screw loose in that case. Given how slowly the law usually works, I reckon less than 24 hours is pretty good. I note your use of the emotive word "incarcerated" which while technically correct implies something a lot less pleasant than what I suspect happened. I'm guessing this involved ultra polite treatment, as comfy a bed as they could manage as well as meals and as many cups of tea as he wanted

Doubt if they stretched to a Guinness though!

Doors to Automatic
6th Apr 2018, 22:44
G-CPTN - they can still remove them from the premises, forbid to go back, confiscate passport etc just don't treat them in the same way you would, for example, a rapist who has just been caught.

tdracer
6th Apr 2018, 22:50
As an aside, in the US, the accomplice would, when caught, be facing a charge of felony murder and the death penalty in some states. I'm not the biggest fan of America, but they do some things correctly.
More accurately, if during the commission of a felony (which would include 'breaking and entering') someone dies, it can be considered to be first degree (i.e. premeditated) murder even if there was no intent to actually kill someone.
Prosecutors have a great deal of discretion as to when this is actually used. While it could theoretically be applied to the accomplice in this case, it probably wouldn't (and if it was it would be very difficult to get a conviction).

mfaff
7th Apr 2018, 06:25
Doubt if they stretched to a Guinness though!

You never know... I recall that on the one occasion I was asked by the UK Police to return with them to their main station I was surprised that my conversation with the Officer was over a pint of Guinness in their 'mess/ bar'...

Sadly I was only able to finish half it before 'my' car back home was ready and waiting for me....

I"m guessing that a 'guest' at such a station may receive a wide variety of different 'accommodations'

Icare9
7th Apr 2018, 06:28
Pity the Vincent clan can't be charged with oxygen theft and put away.
Seems a thoroughly unpleasant bunch - even though he was "a lovely chap" .....

What did his accomplice say before he fled the scene?
"Oi, Vincent - van gone"

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Apr 2018, 07:51
More accurately, if during the commission of a felony (which would include 'breaking and entering') someone dies, it can be considered to be first degree (i.e. premeditated) murder even if there was no intent to actually kill someone.
Prosecutors have a great deal of discretion as to when this is actually used. While it could theoretically be applied to the accomplice in this case, it probably wouldn't (and if it was it would be very difficult to get a conviction).
I have a recollection of a charge of "causing death whilst doing something illegal" (not the exact wording!) being made against a tractor driver pulling an illegal load with a neck high tow wire which killed a motorcyclist when he went into it. The court decided this was all too difficult and didn't convict.

Sallyann1234
7th Apr 2018, 08:20
Sorry Doors to Automatic I'm going to have to admit to a screw loose in that case. Given how slowly the law usually works, I reckon less than 24 hours is pretty good. I note your use of the emotive word "incarcerated" which while technically correct implies something a lot less pleasant than what I suspect happened. I'm guessing this involved ultra polite treatment, as comfy a bed as they could manage as well as meals and as many cups of tea as he wanted

Doubt if they stretched to a Guinness though!
Absolutely. Since the local police could see exactly what had happened and who was involved, they would have treated him with respect as the hero that he was.
He has permanently removed from the streets someone that they had not been able to lock up themselves.

Also, bear in mind that this gang of criminals is very familiar with the laws on arrest and related police procedure, and would have no hesitation in engaging their usual friendly lawyer if everything was not followed to the letter.

radeng
7th Apr 2018, 14:21
I may be accused of being unfeeling, but I feel Gaffer Gamgee's words at the end of 'Lord of the Rings' (the book, not the film) apply.

"All's well that ends better."

Pontius Navigator
7th Apr 2018, 14:39
I bet the police know who the 3rd Man is. Vincent probably had a regular mate who now is probably sweating and lying low.

Shack37
7th Apr 2018, 21:07
Origially posted by PN
I bet the police know who the 3rd Man is. Vincent probably had a regular mate who now is probably sweating and lying low


A family member perhaps? If so even the family may be after him for leaving that "lovely man" dying in the Street.

GLIDER 90
8th Apr 2018, 13:03
Ship all the Vincents & the other Low Life Scum & Gangs out of the UK to Guantanamo Bay & let them rot!!!!! , or could we do a deal with North Korea?

under_exposed
8th Apr 2018, 13:08
Ship all the Vincents & the other Low Life Scum & Gangs out of the UK to Guantanamo Bay & let them rot!!!!! , or could we do a deal with North Korea?
Why bother with North Korea if you are going to turn the UK into a similar regime?

GLIDER 90
8th Apr 2018, 17:19
Why bother with North Korea if you are going to turn the UK into a similar regime?

Is it April the 1st !!!!!!!!!!!!!

akindofmagic
9th Apr 2018, 08:42
While it could theoretically be applied to the accomplice in this case, it probably wouldn't (and if it was it would be very difficult to get a conviction).

Just to point out that it's actually extremely easy to get a conviction for felony murder. There are myriad examples (this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43673331) being one recent example).

NutLoose
9th Apr 2018, 13:47
Released without charge, no further action to be taken :)

Pensioner, 78, accused of stabbing burglary suspect released with no further action | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/06/pensioner-78-accused-fatally-stabbing-burglary-suspect-released-no-action-7447374/)

goudie
10th Apr 2018, 07:38
In a rather sickening twist friends and family are placing flowers outside the house where Vincent was killed. The house has been boarded up and abandoned by Oborne, who has gone into hiding, in fear of his life, after threats.

Sallyann1234
10th Apr 2018, 09:04
In a rather sickening twist friends and family are placing flowers outside the house where Vincent was killed. The house has been boarded up and abandoned by Oborne, who has gone into hiding, in fear of his life, after threats.
And of course given plenty of publicity by low-grade newspapers. The same papers that screamed so loudly when the police followed the correct investigation procedure after the death of the thief.
I trust that the local council will remove the rubbish promptly.

NutLoose
10th Apr 2018, 11:32
Someone has took them all down bar the kids one.

Mr Vincent's cousin Phoebe Smith, 34, said whoever had torn down the flowers "should be ashamed of themselves".
"It's terrible, they don't understand that it's somebody's child. They're a memory of a son and a friend," she added.
She said Mr Vincent's family, understood to be from the travelling community, should be "allowed to lay flowers for Henry".
Many residents in Hither Green have interpreted the large tribute to Mr Vincent, which has now been cut down, as an aggressive act.
One neighbour said they saw a car circling the block while the tribute was being erected, which they believe was an attempt to intimidate locals.
If intimidation was the aim, it appears to have worked. Most neighbours are reluctant to talk publicly, for fear of being drawn into a dispute that may not be over.
While those living on South Park Crescent have all been quick to offer condolences to Mr Vincent, they argue his is not the only life that has been ruined.


Tributes to Hither Green 'burglar' Henry Vincent torn down - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526)

VP959
10th Apr 2018, 11:36
In a rather sickening twist friends and family are placing flowers outside the house where Vincent was killed. The house has been boarded up and abandoned by Oborne, who has gone into hiding, in fear of his life, after threats.

Latest is that someone has ripped all these flowers etc down: Tributes to Hither Green 'burglar' Henry Vincent torn down - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526)

Quite why people should be allowed to deface someone else's property like this I don't know. I have some sympathy for memorials on the road side to people that have died in road accidents, primarily because they may well make some drivers realise that they too are mortal, and could end up being commemorated by a bunch of flowers on the roadside.

The size of the "memorial" for this burglar who was accidentally killed whilst in the commission of a serious crime seems way OTT to me, though. All they need to do now is sweep the mess off the pavement:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/E9EF/production/_100778895_046077043.jpg

NutLoose
10th Apr 2018, 11:44
Not wanting to cast aspersions but that speaks volumes as to the amount etc

Mr Vincent's family, understood to be from the travelling community

sitigeltfel
10th Apr 2018, 12:29
And of course given plenty of publicity by low-grade newspapers.

That the story is also in the Guardian adds weight to your comment.

BehindBlueEyes
10th Apr 2018, 12:34
What is disturbing is that so many of the locals appear intimidated by these travellers. A pity the money wasted on that tat attached to the fence wasn’t dontated to the elderly victims of this charmer - that would have gone a long way to building bridges and restoring community relations. They’re always bleating that they’re misunderstood by society.

I suppose it’s all part of the culture they’re so proud of; along with light up wedding dresses, ensuring their womenfolk are kept uneducated, tarmacing drives for £10k, wife beating, theft etc etc.

Bee Rexit
10th Apr 2018, 15:46
Flowers have been put up again earlier today only to be taken down again by another chap this afternoon, in full view of the press. Very brave guy!

BehindBlueEyes
11th Apr 2018, 17:07
Hither Green burglar stabbing: Mounted police patrol area - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43722948)

akindofmagic
12th Apr 2018, 17:34
Hither Green: Intimidation plea in Henry Vincent death dispute - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43736227)

People laying flowers in tribute to a suspected burglar who was fatally stabbed should not feel intimidated, a senior Met Police officer says.

The lunatics are truly running the asylum.

sitigeltfel
13th Apr 2018, 07:01
How would the police/politicians feel if a shrine to the Westminster bridge attacker was set up outside Big Ben by his Jihadi supporters?

It wouldn't last ten minutes!

Krystal n chips
13th Apr 2018, 07:21
How would the police/politicians feel if a shrine to the Westminster bridge attacker was set up outside Big Ben by his Jihadi supporters?

It wouldn't last ten minutes!

Siti old boy !

Chilleth !....the Mail is thundering forth with a suitably front page condemnation to keep the BP of its readership coursing at pace through their veins and arteries.....

Newspaper headlines: May 'gets backing' for Syria action - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-43747832)

Blacksheep
13th Apr 2018, 12:30
...suspected burglar...Suspected? He was injured while inside an elderly couple's house. The elderly man was attacked and beaten (his face was black and blue in the images seen) - in his own home. The elderly man fatally injured the intruder in the course of defending himself during the violent struggle - in his own kitchen.

...and the intruder is considered to be only a SUSPECTED burglar? He was a burglar, pure and simple. A dangerously violent one at that.

annakm
13th Apr 2018, 13:45
The burglar also went armed so presumably he went with the intent of at least intimidating, if not using it. Just his bad luck that the tables were turned, ironically by what he and his cohort thought were a soft target.

As to the comments about the fact that it’s disgraceful that his children’s tribute has been removed - was he such a lovable family man that he thought nothing about the fear and hurt he caused his elderly victims?

VP959
13th Apr 2018, 14:16
Technically, Vincent will remain a suspect, and will never be convicted for this burglary, as he is now dead.

I've no doubt that, had he lived, he would be convicted, but the fact is that he hasn't, so is innocent of this crime, as far as the law is concerned.

Yes, it's bloody atrocious that his family have chosen to put floral tributes up opposite where he died. Yes, it's outrageous that the elderly victim of this attempted burglary has felt it necessary to leave his home and have it boarded up, for fear of reprisals by friends or family of Vincent, but our laws apply equally to all.

My personal view is that there are probably regulations or some such that could be used to have those floral tributes removed, and that removing them should be undertaken as a matter of course under the circumstances, but I suspect that it's not a police matter, it's probably something that falls under a local authority regulation or byelaw.

Sallyann1234
13th Apr 2018, 17:12
Littering is an offence is it not? That ought to cover the leaving of balloons and flowers in the street. Or does the fact that the fence is someone's private property make a difference?

ATNotts
13th Apr 2018, 17:26
Littering is an offence is it not? That ought to cover the leaving of balloons and flowers in the street. Or does the fact that the fence is someone's private property make a difference?

It was last time I looked! I suppose that as it's on private property the property owner would probably have to sue in the civil courts on some sort of basis like criminal damage, but since the scumbag, and presumably his relatives are alleged to be travellers, serving papers may prove hard to do.

BehindBlueEyes
13th Apr 2018, 18:21
Tbh, and I’ll probably get the wrath of KnC for this comment, if my relative(s) had a reputation as notorious as this chap who met his end committing a potentially violent crime, I would probably be feeling pretty ashamed of his behaviour, licking my wounds and doing my grieving more privately and discreetly. There is something very triumphalist about these tributes; the travelling community seem to be regarding his death as some kind of occupational hazard or as a result of an industrial injury!

G-CPTN
13th Apr 2018, 18:32
if my relative(s) had a reputation as notorious as this chap who met his end committing a potentially violent crime, I would probably be feeling pretty ashamed of his behaviour, licking my wounds and doing my grieving more privately and discreetly. There is something very triumphalist about these tributes; the travelling community seem to be regarding his death as some kind of occupational hazard or as a result of an industrial injury!
Different standards.
The Travelling Community seem to revel in unlawful behaviour - and get way with it.

They also seem to celebrate the death of any member of their community - with extravagant funerals and memorials.

Sallyann1234
13th Apr 2018, 19:03
You may be sure that this funeral will be spectacular - and cost the community a fortune for policing.

Tankertrashnav
13th Apr 2018, 23:08
I hereby challenge any "traveller" to come out and prove that their income is earned by honest means, and does not involve theft, fraud, "modern slavery" (i.e. slavery) or any other illegal method.

As a sequel to "my Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" and similar programmes, I look forward to seeing "My Big Fat Gypsy Tax Return".

I'm not holding my breath. :*

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Apr 2018, 08:18
I hereby challenge any "traveller" to come out and prove that their income is earned by honest means
The only one I'm aware of ever having employed earned their income by honest means.

G-CPTN
14th Apr 2018, 09:57
Stabbed burglar 'to have £100,000 funeral which will pass pensioner's home' (http://metro.co.uk/2018/04/14/stabbed-burglar-100000-funeral-procession-will-pass-pensioners-home-7466409/).

pilotmike
14th Apr 2018, 12:08
I have always tried to give 'travellers' the benefit of the doubt, generally not having had any direct contact with them upon which to base an informed opinion.

However, these widely reported actions after this burglary incident make it very easy for myself and others to make up our minds.

They really are doing themselves no favours, and are giving everyone good reason to see them and treat them as a mafia of dangerous criminals, and nasty ones at that, with zero compassion or consideration for others.

Disgusting behaviour. This really doesn't belong in a civilised society.

Planemike
14th Apr 2018, 12:11
pilotmike............ A reasonable analysis, in my opinion...

VP959
14th Apr 2018, 12:19
The problem is that "travellers" are not a cohesive group, who all share the same way of life, beliefs, adherence to the law, etc. The term now covers every nomadic group from those leftover from the hippy era, through people who are honest and trustworthy, but choose to live a nomadic lifestyle, to groups that are really just nomadic criminals.

The latter hit the headlines, but I've met some in the past who were as honest and trustworthy as anyone else, but sadly they all get put into the same category by the media.

In this case I don't think there's any significant doubt that Vincent was a criminal at all, and it may well be that many of his friends and family have been engaged in criminal activity too.

Given that Vincent was in the process of trying to rob a 78 year old couple at the time of his demise, one has to wonder where the reported £100k for the funeral is coming from. My guess is that the media are exaggerating the figure, but even so it looks like an expensive funeral. To parade past the scene of the Vincent's final crime is bang out of order, and in my view should be prevented.

Sallyann1234
14th Apr 2018, 12:26
If the police don't facilitate their parade past the scene of the attempted crime, I will eat my Aintree hat.

VP959
14th Apr 2018, 12:39
If the police don't facilitate their parade past the scene of the attempted crime, I will eat my Aintree hat.

I'm sure you're right, as I doubt there is any effective legislation that could be used to stop it.

Perhaps if there was a risk of a violent confrontation if they choose to take this route then the police might be able to step in, but even then I'm not at all sure that they would be able to do anything more than protect the funeral cortège.

treadigraph
14th Apr 2018, 12:42
If they did do it then the locals should stand outside their houses with their backs turned.

Sally, gonna post a pic of your hat? :)

sitigeltfel
14th Apr 2018, 12:43
At the end of May, gypsies across Europe take a pilgrimage to Saintes Maries de la Mer (http://www.avignon-et-provence.com/en/traditions/gypsys-pilgrimage-saintes-maries-de-mer) in the Camargue. The traditional ones seem to cause no problems but the "travellers" from the UK and Ireland are a different kettle of fish.
They stop off in villages around here on their way South and leave the usual trail of filth and detritus when they depart. Restaurants are now wary of taking large bookings from them as they have a reputation of scoffing and scarpering before the bill arrives.
Funnily enough, they seem to behave when they get to the pilgrimage, maybe the more traditional ones keep them in check and won't tolerate them shitting on their own doorstep.

BehindBlueEyes
14th Apr 2018, 14:08
So, the residents have been asked by the police to be respectful of the floral tributes?

Presumably, they will also be asking the travelling community to be as equally respectful and not pass via the scene?

Icare9
14th Apr 2018, 19:46
There's only one reason to pass the house, and that is simply intimidation.
The Police should state unequivocally that this will not be permitted.
A route from his caravan (well, he was a traveller, wasn't he?) to grave doesn't need to pass close to the house which he burgled.

If the Police don't do that, they have lost control of the streets and public respect

G-CPTN
14th Apr 2018, 20:08
Many Travellers establish communities based on caravans, but with 'permanent' chalets based on residential caravans designed in such a way to circumvent planning regulations.
See Dale Farm Essex.

sitigeltfel
16th Apr 2018, 07:59
Many Travellers establish communities based on caravans, but with 'permanent' chalets based on residential caravans designed in such a way to circumvent planning regulations.
See Dale Farm Essex.

There is an official settlement close to here in L'Isle sur la Sorgue.
The authorities thoughtfully located it on the edge of town, right next to the Gendarmerie! :E

sitigeltfel
16th Apr 2018, 08:01
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c982929bbad50fa25af45f8ef29b02a413f905739fa8727ec811cbfe51f7 65d2.jpg?w=600&h=512

M.Mouse
16th Apr 2018, 21:54
They really are doing themselves no favours, and are giving everyone good reason to see them and treat them as a mafia of dangerous criminals, and nasty ones at that, with zero compassion or consideration for others.

True Romany Gypsies I remember from childhood lived in traditional wooden caravans and, if my memories are correct, were decent enough people.

Now, as VP959 alludes to, we have a large population of 'travellers' made up of numerous groups. The 'travellers' I have any knowledge of have no morals, rob, cheat and lie. They pay no taxes and leave filth wherever they stop. The Police are often afraid to enter a traveller site for fear of violence and intimidation.

The last encounter by one of my friends was when a pair of 'travellers' drove into his yard, loaded his pressure washer into their van and drove off before anybody realised what was happening. I was present when a similar vehicle drove in to his yard for no apparent reason and drove off when challenged. They were casing the joint in my view.

They are scum.

flash8
16th Apr 2018, 21:59
They are scum.

I was in Bucharest a few years ago and got into a chat with the girl at the Hotel reception on Romania... as soon as I mentioned "Gypsies" she let loose such invective I was quite surprised for such a small cute girl... the long and short being that most Romanians hate them, and hate being abroad when she said as soon as she mentions she is Romanian people respond with ahhh... Gypsies :)

cargosales
17th Apr 2018, 00:15
True Romany Gypsies I remember from childhood lived in traditional wooden caravans and, if my memories are correct, were decent enough people.

Now, as VP959 alludes to, we have a large population of 'travellers' made up of numerous groups. The 'travellers' I have any knowledge of have no morals, rob, cheat and lie. They pay no taxes and leave filth wherever they stop. The Police are often afraid to enter a traveller site for fear of violence and intimidation.

The last encounter by one of my friends was when a pair of 'travellers' drove into his yard, loaded his pressure washer into their van and drove off before anybody realised what was happening. I was present when a similar vehicle drove in to his yard for no apparent reason and drove off when challenged. They were casing the joint in my view.

They are scum.

Agreed on all counts ..

There are true 'gypsies / travellers' who do no-one anyone any real harm (except in the pocket for those daft enough to pay £10k for that new drive)..

And then there are the Pikeys, or as the police where I used to live called them, Likeys. = Do as you like-ies because they would use intimidation, violence and a host of other things knowing that the police could do nothing about it because these scum knew the law better that Plod themselves. There is only one rule they understand and that's aggression :(

It was a shame then that the local council decided to locate a 'traveller camp' just down the road from a village pub I used to frequent. And so they used to come in / tried to come even after they were barred in order to cause trouble. One of them 'took on' a young gentle local lad who wouldn't say boo to a goose. But ended up getting hammered by this young lad in a 'one-to-one... So they came back mob-handed looking for revenge :yuk:

A shame because there was a gentleman who used to come in occasionally for a Guiness or three and was perfectly pleasant to have a chat too, as long as you could talk about Ireland or horses. Or, if ignorant, express an interest and ask what was good about them... And he was welcome in the pub because he was genuinely a nice guy who would stand his rounds and happily chat to the other locals.

Only thing was this chap was the King of the ******** [location redacted] Gypsies (i.e. the proper lot) So when these Likeys came back en-masse looking for this young lad with threats to do awful things to him, this man became somewhat annoyed that the karma of his local drinking hole was being so badly disturbed.

It transpired that a group of gentlemen from ******** were despatched to visit the Likey camp and 'have a quiet word' with those concerned :E They were never seen in the pub again :ok:

Totally true

CS

Ex Cargo Clown
17th Apr 2018, 04:59
I have a slight vested interest in this as my girlfriend is Romani and their community absolutely despise the UK and Irish "travellers" as they get tarred with the same brush.

As for this funeral fiasco surely the police can stop it to prevent a breach of the peace

treadigraph
17th Apr 2018, 06:09
Hither Green: Relatives mark dead burglar's birthday - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43774803)

NutLoose
18th Apr 2018, 13:00
It appears it is catching on, there is another one regretting his actions.

Dunstable gran shoots intruder with crossbow nicknamed 'Manstopper' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5627623/Dunstable-gran-shoots-intruder-crossbow-nicknamed-Manstopper.html?mrn_rm=als1)

Sallyann1234
19th Apr 2018, 17:30
https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2018/04/13/council-to-demolish-victims-home-to-erect-memorial-garden-for-murdered-burglar/

chevvron
19th Apr 2018, 17:36
Irish 'travellers' only come to the UK because they are banned from setting up their 'temporary' camps in Ireland, many having permanent homes in Ireland. If the Irish government can enact such a law without falling foul of 'Uman Rights, why can't we?

Shack37
19th Apr 2018, 21:15
I may have missed it if it´s been posted, has a date been set for this funeral?

Bee Rexit
20th Apr 2018, 15:11
I may have missed it if it´s been posted, has a date been set for this funeral?

May the 3rd. Apparently they are still taking the cortège past the house where he was killed.

VP959
20th Apr 2018, 15:39
May the 3rd. Apparently they are still taking the cortège past the house where he was killed.

I wonder what this will cost the taxpayer?

I would guess that there will be a fairly large turnout by both the "traveller community", plus local, and not so local, people who support the right of a homeowner to defend themselves when their home is broken into and they feel threatened.

No doubt there will be a hefty police presence to try and keep the two sides apart.

Sallyann1234
20th Apr 2018, 20:34
I wonder what this will cost the taxpayer?

I would guess that there will be a fairly large turnout by both the "traveller community", plus local, and not so local, people who support the right of a homeowner to defend themselves when their home is broken into and they feel threatened.

No doubt there will be a hefty police presence to try and keep the two sides apart.
As I said in #154.
It will cost the local ratepayers at least as much as the 'travellers'.

gruntie
21st Apr 2018, 06:32
The other suspect has been arrested.

Kent arrest in Hither Green fatal burglary probe - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43846203)

Icare9
21st Apr 2018, 09:23
This is bringing the genuine "traveller" community into so much disrespect that I fear from now on, all such will be regarded with the utmost suspicion.
I hope therefore that they will ensure that the Vincent's DON'T make such a spectacle as to rouse the ire of Middle England by ensuring they tone down their 3 day shin dig and that the cortege does not pass near the home that he broke into.

It's now up to the traveller community to show where their allegiance lies - on the side of right, or of wrong. Stop the Vincent's idiotic glamming of a crook.

BehindBlueEyes
29th Apr 2018, 22:18
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roof-con-by-relatives-of-dead-burglar-rs5xdh9hj

They just can’t bloody stop can they?

G-CPTN
3rd May 2018, 16:46
The funeral. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43992691)

More here (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/954727/henry-vincent-funeral-hither-green-burglar-police).

G-CPTN
3rd May 2018, 17:00
The wake is likely to be held here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5675037/Henry-Vincents-father-living-1-7m-home.html).

BehindBlueEyes
3rd May 2018, 17:34
The funeral. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43992691)

More here (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/954727/henry-vincent-funeral-hither-green-burglar-police).

So, how many of you Ppruners go to a funeral armed with bricks and eggs? Or, is it a traveller tradition?

VP959
3rd May 2018, 18:13
So, how many of you Ppruners go to a funeral armed with bricks and eggs? Or, is it a traveller tradition?


I think the thing that annoys me more than anything else is how the criminal travellers seem to be virtually immune from serious police investigation. If only a part of that story about the Vincents "buying" that farmhouse are true, then there would seem to be some serious questions to answer. Ignoring the probability that the owner was an elderly man who may well have been susceptible to being "influenced", something that the Vincents seem to excel at from their past convictions, how did they manage to buy that house via five separate £65,000 transactions?

My guess is that this was a way to stay "under the radar" from various bits of legislation, including Stamp Duty and perhaps money laundering regulations, but even accepting that the media have deliberately over-inflated the value of the property (by a factor of around two at a guess) it still looks mighty suspicious.

One of the major issues seem to be that these criminal gangs seem to be impenetrable as far as conventional policing is concerned. They intimidate anyone who might aid a prosecution by giving evidence, seem free to walk the streets (even at a funeral) carrying what would be classed as offensive items if they were demonstrators, and yet seem untouchable by any law that we create to try and rein in their criminality.

The flip side is that there are a lot of genuinely peaceful, law abiding, travelling folk, who earn an honest living and cause no trouble to anyone, who must be sick and tired of being associated with this criminal element,

BehindBlueEyes
3rd May 2018, 18:55
I think the thing that annoys me more than anything else is how the criminal travellers seem to be virtually immune from serious police investigation. If only a part of that story about the Vincents "buying" that farmhouse are true, then there would seem to be some serious questions to answer. Ignoring the probability that the owner was an elderly man who may well have been susceptible to being "influenced", something that the Vincents seem to excel at from their past convictions, how did they manage to buy that house via five separate £65,000 transactions?

My guess is that this was a way to stay "under the radar" from various bits of legislation, including Stamp Duty and perhaps money laundering regulations, but even accepting that the media have deliberately over-inflated the value of the property (by a factor of around two at a guess) it still looks mighty suspicious.

One of the major issues seem to be that these criminal gangs seem to be impenetrable as far as conventional policing is concerned. They intimidate anyone who might aid a prosecution by giving evidence, seem free to walk the streets (even at a funeral) carrying what would be classed as offensive items if they were demonstrators, and yet seem untouchable by any law that we create to try and rein in their criminality.

The flip side is that there are a lot of genuinely peaceful, law abiding, travelling folk, who earn an honest living and cause no trouble to anyone, who must be sick and tired of being associated with this criminal element,

i think you’ve hit the nail on the head V959. I think a lot of the anti traveller feeling stems from this. Because they technically have no roots ie bricks and mortar, registered employment or any sort of paper trail, they are unaccountable and it is virtually impossible to bring to them book over any criminal activity. Therefore, law enforcement is either powerless or unwilling to pursue any action. It’s easier just to contain a situation as it arises or caution ‘the gorgers’ (as we are called by travellers) not to inflame feeling.

In the last few years, there has been more and more of these pony and racing traps being thrashed around on the local roads where I live. On occasion, the gypsies doing it have set up unofficial roadblocks to prevent legitimate road users going about their business. When I’ve reported it, I’ve received an incident number but nothing appeared to have been done. This community unfortunately and unfairly seems to feel it is untouchable - and they wonder why there is such hostility to their lifestyle?

Your point about the genuine travelling folk is also very valid - I think we can all recall, years ago, the individuals who chose to lead a semi nomadic life, following seasonal work and living on the open road. No one seemed to mind if they set up camp temporarily as when they moved on, the turf where their fire had been was put back, no rubbish was left and the countryside respected. Last summer, 24 caravans descended on our local park, together with accompanying 4 wheel drives, Mercedes etc. They were moved on(2 miles down the road) but the clean up from 48 hours was revolting. The hedges were full of discarded household stuff and even worse - human excrement that should have been buried.

Lascaille
3rd May 2018, 19:16
One of the major issues seem to be that these criminal gangs seem to be impenetrable as far as conventional policing is concerned.

That's the downside of the 'policing by consent' police manpower and force allocation model. If your community doesn't consent to being policed...

funfly
3rd May 2018, 21:05
Crime in the area has been low today.

sitigeltfel
4th May 2018, 06:02
After the funeral, church authorities are checking the lead on the roof.

Mr Optimistic
4th May 2018, 09:50
Shouldn't the country have a policy for integration ? Seems sad that these people of are excluded from our society such that they are forced to live in enclaves, and for some, frequently leave an area at some speed.

VP959
4th May 2018, 10:00
Shouldn't the country have a policy for integration ? Seems sad that these people of are excluded from our society such that they are forced to live in enclaves, and for some, frequently leave an area at some speed.

Like some other groups, these people choose to exclude themselves, it isn't imposed on them at all. The criminal element amongst travellers use their mobility as a key way of not getting caught - by moving around they make it a great deal more challenging for the police to act against them. Given that the criminal traveller community often seem to specialise in crimes where they rip people off, often those who are vulnerable, with everything from dodgy building and roofing work to using knocked off materials to do jobs like laying drives, they need to move around before their faces get known locally.

Icare9
4th May 2018, 17:18
There used to be Gypsy Kings that controlled traveller activities.
There absence is going to cause the traveller community to be regarded as suspicious whatever they do.

The manor house where the Vincent clan and associates have their lair was only discovered as that was where Billy Jeeves his partner in crime was arrested.
So where's the charge of perverting the course of justice by harbouring a wanted man?

Policing the travelling fraternity needs to be far more robust to bring respect back to both the police AND the majority of travellers.

funfly
4th May 2018, 20:17
Mr. Optimistic,
Lovely comment, pity some will not understand that your lounge is firmly in your cheek.

Ascend Charlie
5th May 2018, 06:28
your lounge is firmly in your cheek.

dint you mate predictive test?

hiflymk3
5th May 2018, 08:37
I dread to think where Mr. O's bathroom is. :eek: