RAF Officers Sword

[anchorhold]

I was thinking of buying an RAF officers sword for my nephew upon his graduation at 'cranditz'. I was wondering if there approved swords or suppliers.

I came across the following supplier in Canada, who seem much less expensive than others.

http://www.militaryheritage.com/royal_air_force_sword.htm

Any thoughts?

[Fareastdriver]

£276.75 to buy and ship plus £38.97 VAT at todays exchange rate: £315.72 + exchange charges.

Seems pretty good to me. Should get change from £350.

[Mogwi]

Doesn't seem to include the knot but that is only c£20 from Mess Dress Ltd. looks like it is about £300 cheaper than in UK!

[anchorhold]

Have I got my figures wrong 149 CAD to GDP is 82 GDP, I must be wrong?

[Pontius Navigator]

AH, a nice thought but would it be money well spent? A sword may be worn by the Sqn standard bearer and maybe a Service weddings. Other times it will just be extra baggage on postings.

[Chugalug2]

Rather endorse PN's point of view, despite the blurb. Knights of the Air? Yer 'avin a larf, aintcher?

[Davef68]

Have I got my figures wrong 149 CAD to GDP is 82 GDP, I must be wrong?

That's the shipping cost.

The sword is CAD 349 + 149 shipping = CAD 498 = £276

To that you have to add VAT plus the import handling fee

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was in the militaria game I heard about this firm who were producing Royal Naval officers' swords at about one third of the cost of the normal Wilkinson item. Seemed great value until you saw one - they were C**P!

If you really do want to buy your nephew a sword (and I tend to go along with P & N on this) I think you may as well splash out on a good one, rather than an inferior product.

I remember thinking about buying myself a Breitling Navitimer when I was about to start nav school, but thought better of it and was mightily glad I did, as I would have looked a real poser sporting one of those as a student nav. I think owning your own sword falls into the same category.

[Easy Street]

I’ve worn a sword precisely twice and both of those times were for private weddings. Hire costs are a pittance from stores at Cranwell or Halton. Standard bearers and commanders at or above group captain rank are about the only people who would wear a sword any more than once in a blue moon; it would be an expensive encumbrance for a mobile young JO. Besides, looking back through the mists of time, graduating from IOT ranks low on the scale of career landmarks. A set of solid gold cuff links (monogrammed, and with a message and/or graduation date inside the box?) goes well with all dress uniforms and evening wear and might be a good alternative idea. A watch would be best given when he is on an aircraft or unit that has a special edition going, which also avoids the risk identified by TTN of being seen as a poser while under training. Just my opinion!

[Pontius Navigator]

A set of solid gold cuff links (monogrammed, and with a message and/or graduation date inside the box?) goes well with all dress uniforms and evening wear and might be a good alternative idea.

Nailed it. I was going to suggest opening up the question and ES has given a brilliant suggestion.


A watch would be best given when he is on an aircraft or unit that has a special edition going, which also avoids the risk identified by TTN of being seen as a poser while under training. Just my opinion!
This assumes he is destined for pilot. Watch wise, a Breitling might be the bees knees (I wanted one 50 years ago) but they are bling and very expensive for some of the rough and tumble of training (no sniggering please). My favourite is a Citizen Titanium Skyhawk, not the radio or satellite models but the earlier model. Affordable, lighter weight, world time zones, a whiz wheel, no battery to change, and mine is more accurate than my radio model as the latter frequently does not get a signal.

Seiko has a similar no battery watch.

Service watches are good, but a battery will die at an awkward moment like OOA and getting them changed is a PITA.

Passing your first OCU is the biggest step as you finally leave the training machine. Actually you are not fully out of training until on the Sqn 6 months or so.

[muppetofthenorth]

Check that he isn't getting one himself in the first place! The suppliers are invited in during your first few weeks and more than a few people buy their own by paying installments throughout their training.

[Fareastdriver]

If he gets a posting to MoD and decides to live in London he might need it.

[Avtur]

The sword is CAD 349 + 149 shipping = CAD 498

Not sure what happens when you order direct from Canada for shipping to the UK, but just be aware that in Canada, the price you see on the tag is not the price you pay...you usually have to add the tax relevant to the Province.

[Basil]

I'd agree with the foregoing.
Only wore a sword at weddings and when practising to be coffin guard and they were supplied on loan by MoD Air.

[NutLoose]

There was one for sale on here in the last month or so, but I cannot find the link.

[Fareastdriver]

you usually have to add the tax relevant to the Province

Not if it's being exported directly by the manufacturer.

[jolihokistix]

Like the traditional British bayonet, it is always good to have something to fall back on.

[Basil]

Like the traditional British bayonet, it is always good to have something to fall back on.
Recollect colleague doing just that - well, actually, forward on, thereby becoming the proud owner of a handsome 'duelling scar' across the forehead :ok:

Just remembered a rather less amusing incident of a 'mock' sword fight in the OM which resulted in life-changing injury.

[pr00ne]

jolihokistix,

What kind of weddings do you go to!?

[DeepestSouth]

In 20 years service I flourished a sword only 3 times after training, all on parades, so I'd wholly endorse the cufflinks suggestion. The pair my parents gave me and which I wore on passing out parade at Cranwell are some of my most prized possessions and were/are worn very regularly in both RAF and civilian life. That said, when I retired from the Service my wife gave me a fabulous momento - a George V pattern RAF sword which hangs on my study wall and is a constant and very welcome reminder.

[Fareastdriver]

Was it Harold Wilson that took away the right for officers and gentlemen to able to carry a sword at any time?

[pr00ne]

Fareastdriver,

Prevention of Crimes Act 1953, a little before Harold’s time.

[Brookmans Park]

A word of warning. The backup battery died in my eco-drive titanium at about10 years old. I sent it back but Citizen were no longer supporting the model,so now I own a piece of expensive scrap metal

[NutLoose]

A word of warning. The backup battery died in my eco-drive titanium at about10 years old. I sent it back but Citizen were no longer supporting the model,so now I own a piece of expensive scrap metal

You think that's bad, I know of a 10 year old Cirrus aircraft that developed a fault on the EFIS panel and the manufacturer no longer supports them, but has put the owner in contact with a company that maybe be able to help, this is more or less every instrument in the cockpit on these screens, so much for replacing steam driven instruments that you can get repaired still 40 years later.


.

[Basil]

You think that's bad, I know of a 10 year old Cirrus aircraft that developed a fault on the EFIS panel and the manufacturer no longer supports them, but has put the owner in contact with a company that maybe be able to help, this is more or less every instrument in the cockpit on these screens, so much for replacing steam driven instruments that you can get repaired still 40 years later.
.
Would it cost less to (fall on his sword ;) and) install a whole new instrumentation suite?

[Pontius Navigator]

BP, unlucky. Mine was made in Aug 2001. I did a rate check against my wireless model. The wireless model was 22 seconds fast before it was manually updated to the European transmitter. The non-radio model is just 9 seconds fast over well over a year.

Mrs PN's wristwatch is 13 years old.

[Dan Winterland]

I used to do a lot of ceremonial duties - the RAF lent me a Sword for those. Complete waste of money buying one.

[Pontius Navigator]

Apart from it being awkward to move on postings, and insurance, where would you put it?

In your office? Junior officer aircrew don't have offices. In your room in the mess? Maybe.
In the toilet in off-base accommodation? Probabky , but you risk a Princess Beatrix moment during pissups.

[Basil]

you risk a Princess Beatrix moment during pissups
Or worse.
There are conflicting stories about what actually happened on the Sheeran occasion.

[Wander00]

And how many swords were "lost" in the HQRAFSC fire at Brampton......

[Haraka]

And how many swords were "lost" in the HQRAFSC fire at Brampton......
Not as many as went down on"The Atlantic Conveyor" If I could hazard a guess...
That fire coincided with a JARIC OM guest night. In true RAF spirit the guys weighed in ........and filmed it all.

[ORAC]

That fire coincided with a JARIC OM guest night. In true RAF spirit the guys weighed in ........and filmed it all. Professional instinct....

[Tankertrashnav]

Issue hats for officers? I'm shocked :*

Get down to Bates or Herbie Johnson for a proper hat!

[Old-Duffer]

Unfortunately TTN, a Bates hat is not a Bates hat as you and I remember them, as I discovered to my cost and annoyance.

The Bates name was sold and the Bates original was not retained by the purchaser but an inferior style offered as a Bates hat.

Now that all kit comes from 'stores' the No: 1 trousers don't have belt loops nor a back pocket, the hat is horrid to behold and most of the other stuff is cheap and second rate.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

belt loops nor a back pocket,

Old Duffer

Belt loops! Back pockets, good lord man, when did they change the sealed pattern.

High waist and button for braces AND the fly. As for a back pocket, what on earth for? I never even undid the jacket buttons or stuffed anything in the trouser pockets.

[FantomZorbin]

FZjr decided that there was mileage left in my old '50 Mission' hat so used it. OC Admin espied it and enquired where he "got that thing" in less than dulcet tones.

FZjr: It was my father's, sir
OC Admin: Oh!, that's alright then.

The subject was never raised again.

[Tankertrashnav]

Sorry to hear that O-D. All part of the steady degeneration of standards as time goes by I suppose.

I collect military buttons and they tell a tale. In my naval section I have a run of admirals' buttons from early Victorian times to the present day. The early Victorian button is quite superb, the example from WW2 is not bad but the present day one is frankly cheap and nasty.

Sounds like RAF officers' uniforms are going down the same path.

[binbrook]

The rot started a long time ago with the introduction of anodised aluminium buttons.

[goudie]

We all thought the anodised buttons were great at first but then realised how crappy they really were and the cap badges.

[Union Jack]

A lot of people come out of Cranwell with stary eyes.

Now that I come to think of it, some of the ones I have met seem to have stayed that way.....:ok:

Jack

[Tankertrashnav]

Goudie when I was in the militaria business I was regularly asked for brass queen's crown RAF cap badges by serving personnel who wanted to replace the horrible anodised version they had been issued with. They sold at a premium over the earlier king's crown version, which were much more plentiful.

[Melchett01]

Unfortunately TTN, a Bates hat is not a Bates hat as you and I remember them, as I discovered to my cost and annoyance.

The Bates name was sold and the Bates original was not retained by the purchaser but an inferior style offered as a Bates hat.

Now that all kit comes from 'stores' the No: 1 trousers don't have belt loops nor a back pocket, the hat is horrid to behold and most of the other stuff is cheap and second rate.

Old Duffer

Spot on about stores issue. The No 2 blues are shockingly bad. The shirts both fade and the material wears rapidly; start with a shirt and 6 months later you’ve got something that looks more like material used for a negligee. As for the trousers, they have a care label that says wash, but actually put them in the washer and very quickly fine threads start to appear that give the impression of a dog having slept on them.

But back to the OP, I used a bayonet on Ops more than I’ve ever used a ceremonial sword - weddings only. Most swords I know are case mounted or hung on study walls etc, slightly bulky as a JO being moved around every 5 minutes. Another suggestion might be a good quality ink pen which has the potential for daily use and should last a long time if you don’t have a habit of losing them.

[The Oberon]

Goudie when I was in the militaria business I was regularly asked for brass queen's crown RAF cap badges by serving personnel who wanted to replace the horrible anodised version they had been issued with. They sold at a premium over the earlier king's crown version, which were much more plentiful.

In the 60s, in addition to a faded, well moulded beret, a well buffed kings badge was a prized possession. Still had mine on demob in 84

[Basil]

My old messkit little buttons are on my blazer cuffs and my MN buttons on the front.
I aim for the 'louche look' and don't polish them. :yuk:

[Pontius Navigator]

Another suggestion might be a good quality ink pen which has the potential for daily use and should last a long time if you don’t have a habit of losing them.

Another first class idea. I have 3. A Parker 51 I bought my old man, another I bought for my aunt and a Gold Parker 61 I bought for myself. Much better than any old ball point.

[Herod]

A Parker 51

The well known P51, used for "padding" civilian logbooks prior to interviews.

"He's got lots of P51 time"

[olympus]

When I was commissioned (back in the sixties) into the Army I was given (gifted) a GvR infantry officer's sword of the correct pattern, made by Wilkinson & Co. 'Great' thought I, 'I'm now kitted up for all the ceremonials I'll be going on'.

Whilst there were quite a number of parades, colour presentations etc (the last one I can remember was the naming of a British Rail diesel loco after the Regiment, where I was parade 2 i/c) I don't actually remember using my own sword. The sword of choice belonged to a company commander in the battalion who lent it out on a regular basis as it was about half the weight of the ones we junior officers had and this made a big difference if you were faced with a long day in the sun!

My sword now hangs on a beam in my cottage where it quietly gathers dust. I've just taken it down to confirm its vintage and it's very dusty!

Regarding hats, the regimental approved supplier was Herbert Johnson of Bond Street (I think). Bates caps were sometimes worn by the more impecunious but these were frowned on. Moss Bros hats were beyond the pale! My SD hat was from HJ but my No 1 Dress was from Moss Bros. Well it was rarely worn... Sold them both on eBay a couple of years ago; got about £30 for the pair (they were about fifty years old and very battered).

[NutLoose]

Pen wise how about a Spitfire one


https://www.historicgifts.co.uk/fs-spitfire.php

[Basil]

. . . .

Regarding hats, the regimental approved supplier was Herbert Johnson of Bond Street (I think). Bates caps were sometimes worn by the more impecunious but these were frowned on. Moss Bros hats were beyond the pale! My SD hat was from HJ but my No 1 Dress was from Moss Bros. Well it was rarely worn... Sold them both on eBay a couple of years ago; got about £30 for the pair (they were about fifty years old and very battered).
Hmm, wonder where Alkit fits into the hierarchy of hats ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

I started thinking about sword drill. I once had to learn the sword drill for "rest on your arms reversed" for a funeral. Quite an impressive bit of drill, all done in slow time, culminating in the head lowered to a bow. Whole thing took about 20 seconds as I recall.

[goudie]

When Courts Martial were/are held on HMS Victory, whoever was carrying the sword (usually a MAA) would jab it in to the beam above, to take the weight!

[Basil]

I started thinking about sword drill. I once had to learn the sword drill for "rest on your arms reversed" for a funeral. Quite an impressive bit of drill, all done in slow time, culminating in the head lowered to a bow. Whole thing took about 20 seconds as I recall.
"rest on your arms reversed" Ah, yes, that's what it was called.
Benson, perchance?

[NutLoose]

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/mitchells/catalogue-id-srmit10048/lot-9e61a7d3-b37a-43f9-bff4-a99800f3bb1b

just in case someone still wants one.

[FlightlessParrot]

Another first class idea. I have 3. A Parker 51 I bought my old man, another I bought for my aunt and a Gold Parker 61 I bought for myself. Much better than any old ball point.
Butting in, a Parker 51 would be a good idea. Fountain pens and aviation don’t always mix, as the combination of pressure change and vibration has ruined many a shirt. The 51 is as resistant to this as any. The 61 is also excellent, but they’re not as tough (later plastic). 51 is a second-hand item only, and needs to be filled from a bottle. If you want new, a pen using standard international cartridges would be good. For a new bottle-filled pen, Pelikan are handsome, well made, practical, and not as posy as the functionally inferior Montblanc.

[MPN11]

On Graduation, a family friend who was also attending presented me with a suitably engraved Ronson lighter. Now THAT got more use than any pen, sword or SD hat. :]

In fact, I’ll go and get it now, and refill it with Zippo lighter fuel for a nostalgic test run.

EDIT: bu§§er, it’s gas, and even with a new flint won’t generate a spark. Ho-hum, it was 1965. Back to my trusty Zippo!

[NutLoose]

Engraved with?

"If you crash it, burn the evidence"

:p

[MPN11]

Engraved with?

"If you crash it, burn the evidence"

:p
Initials and commissioning date. ;)

Neat bit of copperplate writing in a rather small space!

[Courtney Mil]

Wilkington swords stopped trading in about 2005. A German company bought all their equipment and took on the job. They are called WKC and their products are great quality - they will even engrave your son's name on the blade.

WKC Royal Air Force Sword (http://www.wkc-rmasswords.com/royal-air-force-sword)

[Rosevidney1]

Nutloose, I've just had a look at your link to the sword. I can hardly believe almost 30% will be added to the winning bid.
On second thoughts I can...….. :-(
What a rip-off!

[Tankertrashnav]

Not only that Rosevidney, but an absentee bidder will also be liable to the excessive postal charges which all the major auctioneers now apply, as they use the services of outside carriers to pack and deliver their items. I doubt if the buyer would get away with less then £30 in this instance

[Four Types]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/863x646/sword_b6013c015a25f9990488b828c18b2d987b129423.jpg
If you are still interested in an RAF Sword I offer this. A miniature sword. This is 30 cm (12 inches) long and can be inscribed. It comes from

Award Productions
PO box 300
Shrewsbury
SY5 6WP

01952 510053

www.awardmedals.com

[Whenurhappy]

I recently sold a KG V cypher RAF sword to someone about to leave the service - he wanted something tangible as a memento. I have retained a more recent one (1976) and have worn it about 6 times. But that's not the point. It is a fine piece of craftsmanship; looks great beside the fireplace in the study and is an enduring symbol of the RAF; It will definitely outlive me and go to my son. The only problem I have ever had with baggage was when I was posted to an Embassy, as the sword had to go as diplomatic baggage. I had a case made of mahogany salvaged from several messes - including Bentley Priory - and stenciled on it are the impressive words: "On Her Britannic Majesty's Service - Her Britannic Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs", and with a large, circular brass padlock. Definitely a keeper.

Oh, a sword seems to be quite a popular thing to buy a graduating officer these days - Pooley's have done a great marketing job; anyway, the pool swords used for weddings etc are in a dreadful states and the belts etc are (or, at least, were) falling to pieces.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I know they don't get used much these days (think I've only had cause to wear one on parade about half a dozen times) but I'm considering getting an RAF Officers sword as a momento of my time in the RAF and something to hand down to the kids in years to come. Does anyone have any thoughts on which company provide the best product now that Wilkinson are no longer? Pooleys and WKC both claim to have some of the original Wilkinson tooling (believe the former have their blades made in India and the latter made in their factory in Germany where they made Wilkinsonss blades for them when they were still in business). Crown also make an RAF pattern sword and have come kinda link to Wilkinson.

Any thoughts on what the better supplier is?

[Asturias56]

I think there was an earlier thread on this - in fact if you use the SEARCH function on the top bar you'll find quite e few on the same subject.

[oxenos]

Or you could settle for a pick axe handle - much cheaper.

[Ian W]

Or you could settle for a pick axe handle - much cheaper.

I think that you will find that the broomstick is current NATO Standard (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11420627/German-army-used-broomsticks-instead-of-guns-during-training.html) :rolleyes:

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I did indeed do a search but unfortunately the posts I found were from a little while ago and things have changed recently in the sword world with the likes of Crisp and Son closing. I also found the thread which mine has now been attached to, but that seemed to quickly move to discussing NOT buying a sword, which doesn't particularly help me! Still grateful for any views on the merits of Pooleys vs Crown vs WKC vs anyone else out there that makes them!

[Tea White Zero]

Pooleys are very good. They have the majority of Wilkinsons tooling and back catalogue etc. Their facilities are at shoreham and the guys very friendly and skilled in what they do. they also are the supplier to RAF Cranwell these days.

If you are lucky enough to meet 'old man Pooley' he is a lovely chap very enthusiastic and keen to show off his empire and the sword museum etc.

TWZ

[BluSdUp]

I like the idea of a sword as a gift, but as I am a practical man and have used and abused the laplander knife ( same kniv) I got myself at 17, for years of hiking and Home Guard duty.
It is very practical, mind You to short for fencing!
A 110£ large knife worn by any reindeer herder and most NATO soldiers after winter exercise in Norway.
That, and gold cuff-links could be an option?

Or a German made RAF sword!
( Wonder what Bomber Harris would have recommend,,,!!??

Peace
CptB