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ORAC
29th Mar 2018, 14:55
The devil you say!!

You have to wonder where they get their pontiffs these days. This one night upset a few people......

Pope Francis ‘abolishes hell’, saying souls of unrepentant sinners will simply disappear (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/pope-francis-abolishes-hell-saying-souls-of-unrepentant-sinners-will-simply-disappear-pwlv6l667)

It is been accepted Christian doctrine since the founding of the church, but Pope Francis appears this morning to have abolished Hell.

In a move that will enrage conservative Catholics, the Pontiff told La Repubblica that the souls of unrepentant sinners were not punished in the afterlife, but simply disappeared. “Hell doesn’t exist, the disappearance of the souls of sinners exists,” he told Eugenio Scalfari, a 93-year-old atheist philosopher, during a conversation in the Vatican.

It was the fifth meeting between Pope Francis and Mr Scalfari, the founder of one of Italy’s leading newspapers. Mr Scalfari has retired as editor of the Rome daily, but continues as one of its leading writers.

The previous conversations between the two men have also caused controversy and prompted the Vatican to issue official clarifications......

charliegolf
29th Mar 2018, 15:09
Damn! I've been a good boy- what a waste!

MG23
29th Mar 2018, 15:12
'Is the Pope Catholic?'

Apparently not.

CloudHound
29th Mar 2018, 15:17
Hell yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lomapaseo
29th Mar 2018, 16:37
'Is the Pope Catholic?'

Apparently not.

I had to trick the web site to respond since it said that you no longer exist.

Tankertrashnav
29th Mar 2018, 16:52
0nly 60 odd years since I was taught that if I died in a state of mortal sin (eg I had missed mass because I couldnt be bothered to go) my soul would burn for all eternity. A quick trip to confession, three Hail Marys and all was fine again.

Seems totally bonkers now, but...

who knows? :eek:

Andy_S
29th Mar 2018, 17:00
Pope Francis appears this morning to have abolished Hell.......

As the leader of the worlds biggest criminal organisation, you might argue there was just a slight element of self interest involved.........

BehindBlueEyes
29th Mar 2018, 17:10
Without getting too philosophical, if God created the world and everything in it, he must have created hell and the devil (if you believe in the fairy story) So, isn’t that kind of the Pope saying that God either made an error, told us all a big lie or could technically be done under the trade descriptions act?

Quote from God:

“OK. I overegged Hell a little bit. It doesn’t really exist - I just thought I’d frighten you by telling you stories about a little bloke with a large toasting fork. And it obviously worked, because for 2000 years, generally, you’ve been a teensy weeny bit scared of ending up there haven’t you?”

Pegpilot
29th Mar 2018, 17:25
Reminds me of this old chestnut. An oldie but goodie....

Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."
Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:
"First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:
If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.
So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."
The student, Tim Graham, got the only A.

sitigeltfel
29th Mar 2018, 17:31
If hell doesn't exist, somewhere else will need to be found for Tony Blair.

Krystal n chips
29th Mar 2018, 17:32
Well that's the reputation of one Hieronymus Bosch finished overnight then....

And clearly, his Papal Eminence has never had the pleasure of visiting Leeds or Birmingham, if he thinks Hell doesn't exist.

But, it does beg the theological question....what happens to sinners now and where do they go if Hell has now been abolished given they can't simply disappear ...or has Hell just become too popular as the "must have des. res." and is getting a bit overcrowded to it's time to make it more exclusive again.

Not forgetting this legend also gets debunked .....but not the music which was ahead of it's time....brilliant in every respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2SbRAKVfsA

Rosevidney1
29th Mar 2018, 17:43
And the ancients believed Hell was in being swallowed up by a bog.....
Dunno why the Christians decided to change the location to a fiery furnace of constant torment. Aren't theologians just wonderful?

DaveReidUK
29th Mar 2018, 18:03
So we're left with just high water ...

Ancient Mariner
29th Mar 2018, 18:04
Hell exists, in Norway.
Per

KelvinD
29th Mar 2018, 18:16
Boy! The Herd! That takes me back instantly to a well misspent younger age.
Thanks for that.

Jetex_Jim
29th Mar 2018, 18:16
So, if the Pope is back pedalling on Hell will he also change his views on the sexual act?

By this I refer to the Catholic Churches' position that sexual congress is purely as an act to bring forth new life and is not to be indulged in for mere entertainment purposes.

This is used as the rationalisation for the Churches' position that decrees as sinful: contraception, homosexual sex and (everyone's favourite) masturbation.

Moreover, I'm curious about a related case that the Catholic Church doesn't seems to have an official position on. It seems they've missed a trick and I'd be grateful for some spiritual guidance on the following: Surely sex with a woman beyond her childbearing years must also be categorised a sin?

Clearly it cannot be justified on the grounds of an act to promote reproduction. Isn't it then just an act of pure physical indulgence?

DaveReidUK
29th Mar 2018, 19:17
Surely sex with a woman beyond her childbearing years must also be categorised a sin?

Not necessarily.

I think the official position is still that miracles can happen. :O

rotornut
29th Mar 2018, 19:25
Pope Francis got it wrong: hell does exist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAx-E1LJu_c&spfreload=10

Super VC-10
29th Mar 2018, 19:53
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway

funfly
29th Mar 2018, 22:00
If God created life, then he couldn't have been dead himself, he must have been alive.
So he couldn't actually have created life.

racedo
29th Mar 2018, 22:35
The devil you say!!

You have to wonder where they get their pontiffs these days. This one night upset a few people......

Pope Francis ‘abolishes hell’, saying souls of unrepentant sinners will simply disappear (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/pope-francis-abolishes-hell-saying-souls-of-unrepentant-sinners-will-simply-disappear-pwlv6l667)

It is been accepted Christian doctrine since the founding of the church, but Pope Francis appears this morning to have abolished Hell.

In a move that will enrage conservative Catholics, the Pontiff told La Repubblica that the souls of unrepentant sinners were not punished in the afterlife, but simply disappeared. “Hell doesn’t exist, the disappearance of the souls of sinners exists,” he told Eugenio Scalfari, a 93-year-old atheist philosopher, during a conversation in the Vatican.

It was the fifth meeting between Pope Francis and Mr Scalfari, the founder of one of Italy’s leading newspapers. Mr Scalfari has retired as editor of the Rome daily, but continues as one of its leading writers.

The previous conversations between the two men have also caused controversy and prompted the Vatican to issue official clarifications......

Pope having a conversation with someone and it is not the position of the Catholic church.

Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine when speaking Ex Cathedra........... this was a conversation, nothing else.

cargosales
29th Mar 2018, 23:16
Hell definitely exists. I know this because ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91DSNL1BEeY

RedhillPhil
29th Mar 2018, 23:43
Boy! The Herd! That takes me back instantly to a well misspent younger age.
Thanks for that.


Seconded :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
29th Mar 2018, 23:43
If God created life, then he couldn't have been dead himself, he must have been alive.
So he couldn't actually have created life.
Ah, but, one (in fact the one and only) argument that the college God Squad convinced me of as a student was that if god created the universe, this included god creating logic, and there's no particular reason why he/she/it should have felt themselves bound to follow it.

Hussar 54
29th Mar 2018, 23:56
I know we don't have any proof whether Heaven exists or not.

But even if it does, I'm not too sure that I want to end up there - insects don't have the same moral requirements as we apparently need to be allowed enter, so it's probably going to be full of flies and mosquitos....A bit like Lagos, really, and been there, done that, and not again, Thanks....

annakm
30th Mar 2018, 00:14
https://youtu.be/en1uwIzI3SE

IFMU
30th Mar 2018, 01:45
I've taken holiday in Hell.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan
It was nice.

jolihokistix
30th Mar 2018, 04:08
We are missing the elephant in the room.

Hell only exists as the opposite to Heaven. You cannot have one without the other. Like darkness and light, metaphorically of course. If you abolish one, then 'poof'... both disappear.

Besides, all the occupants of the Muslim Quarter (in both Heaven and Hell) will surely have something to say on this subject.

Ascend Charlie
30th Mar 2018, 05:12
Well, hell was just a relatively new concept in the late BC/early christian days.

The Hinnom Valley of Jerusalem was where babies were sacrificed to Moloch and Ball, and later on it just became the place to dump rubbish and even dead bodies of executed criminals. It was usually burning, and gave a good image of a fiery hell. Hinnom became Ge-Hinnom, and in Greek became the source of our word hell.

The rest of the myth was created to do the job of keeping morals upright and priests in ceremonial wine. Celibacy was another way of enforcing the rule, but not all of the hierarchy followed it.

jolihokistix
30th Mar 2018, 05:56
What, did the Buddhist hell come from there too?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_(Buddhism)

Fark'n'ell
30th Mar 2018, 06:56
Pope Says Hell Doesn't Exist


Bugger,I won't get to find out what it's like,

B Fraser
30th Mar 2018, 07:03
If Hell doesn't exist then where do all the interesting people go when they snuff it ?

John Marsh
30th Mar 2018, 08:14
If God created life, then he couldn't have been dead himself, he must have been alive.
So he couldn't actually have created life.

Here's the model which I personally find (sort of) reasonable: all within Creation is eternal. There was no 'beginning' and there shall be no 'end'.

Indeed, there's no 'was' or 'shall be' at all. The linear time of past, present and future with which we are familiar is a product of the way in which we perceive and thus experience.

Everything just is. All events, all situations, all possibilities, everywhere and 'everywhen'. We move our perception along 'strings' of discrete parallel realities, to create our experience of linear time.

I wonder how reasonable the Pontiff finds his own model of reality? Is it identical to the one he publicly proclaims?

Mr Optimistic
30th Mar 2018, 09:06
If God can't die he can't be alive.

ATNotts
30th Mar 2018, 09:17
Obviously, if he really does believe that then he can't possibly have stood in the immigration queue at Miami Airport!

Krystal n chips
30th Mar 2018, 09:33
Obviously, if he really does believe that then he can't possibly have stood in the immigration queue at Miami Airport!

And not forgetting the "delights" of sitting in a queue on the M5/M6 for a few hours, plus the latest "inspired planning ", the closure of one lane on the A52 in Derby, this bringing gridlock down Nottingham Road and around Pentagon Island....

Uncle Fred
30th Mar 2018, 09:59
He obviously has not been to Slough as of late.

Fareastdriver
30th Mar 2018, 10:08
I was hoping to go to Hell and get a job as a whipper-in.

ORAC
30th Mar 2018, 10:11
Racedo, reference the pontiff not speaking “Ex Cathedra”.

I believe that is accepted and acknowledged by the final sentence that, “The previous conversations between the two men have also caused controversy and prompted the Vatican to issue official clarifications......”

Nevertheless, it is controversial that he holds, and would expound to a journalist, such an opinion.

If he ever expresses the opinion that God might not exist he might find himself accepted in open arms by the CoE.....

funfly
30th Mar 2018, 12:09
John, I have always had the view that the past doesn’t exist as you say it is a concept.
Indeed the past lies only in peoples memories and these memories differ from person to person resulting in a multitudes of ‘pasts’.
I would expand that to reminding everyone that their view of the world around them is one that has passes through receptors and has been interpreted by their brains. Intesting cases recently highlighted where the eyes have deteriorated and people see realistic images placed by the brain of things that are actually not there but inserted by the brain to fill in lack of evidence.
As has been said before, none of us has any proof that anything really exists outside of our own conciousness.
Wow thats a bit deep, time for a nap.

charliegolf
30th Mar 2018, 12:12
Pope having a conversation with someone and it is not the position of the Catholic church.

Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine when speaking Ex Cathedra........... this was a conversation, nothing else.

Apart from the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and the doctrine of infallibility itself (First Vatican Council, 1850 ish), I can't think of another example where infallibility has been invoked.

CG

racedo
30th Mar 2018, 12:38
Racedo, reference the pontiff not speaking “Ex Cathedra”.

I believe that is accepted and acknowledged by the final sentence that, “The previous conversations between the two men have also caused controversy and prompted the Vatican to issue official clarifications......”

Nevertheless, it is controversial that he holds, and would expound to a journalist, such an opinion.

If he ever expresses the opinion that God might not exist he might find himself accepted in open arms by the CoE.....

As a cradle to grave Catholic because that is what i will be, I love when a current Pope makes a statement and all of those who have little regard for Catholicisim (or any religion) suddenly awake and see it as proof of something.
People can take whatever personal viewpoint you wish, matter not a jot to myself or others.

As to concept of Hell, does exist I have zero doubt of that, but will be different for those heading that way.

I have read of a couple of different people who passed to the other side in near death experience who came back and realisd life needed to change.
One described it as like a mountain of people in front of you all clambouring in and out of the people above and around you as you wanted to get to the top but in reality never moved as those joining pulled people down.............. think there is a painting which describes it somewhere.
Second was walls of corridors where hands grabbing you as you going along to drag you into various rooms / areas where hot, smoke and fire all around.

Do I think people will go there ? .................. answer is yes.
Those who killed, murdered, profited from mayhem, engaged in slaughter or were the instigators of it, stole from the poor, abused people etc.

It is the evil that lives in your heart that will bring you to hell. Going into a Church / Prayer room / Mosque / Temple etc etc and proclaiming to love God while going back out and doing exactly what you were doing all week is written about in the Bible.................. No different from the Politicians who proclaim they found God and then going in on Monday and ordering air strikes on civilians or selling arms to regimes who will do the same.

Most people are good.

(and it is Good Friday where Jesus died for Man sins)

racedo
30th Mar 2018, 12:58
Apart from the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and the doctrine of infallibility itself (First Vatican Council, 1850 ish), I can't think of another example where infallibility has been invoked.

CG

Reading the media and apparently it is every day :rolleyes:

I imagine at pearly gates you will have someone saying "I gave you life and the Free Will to use it as you wish, what have you done with it".

The ones who say well I never did this and always did this and never used their life I think will be just as likely to go to hell as those who killed and murdered and abused.
Bit like the bit in the bible where people given talents and some did nothing with the.

The ones who made mistakes in life and then spent their life making up for it and truly repenting I think have a better chance.

On judgement day I figure when they open the Ledger there will be all the mistakes I have made in life, hopefully there will be enough on the other side.

In eastern europe recently and at a McDonalds queing, it was minus 10 plus during day, man behind look dishevelled and while it was registering he likely homeless and cold but lack of sleep on my part stopped straight thinking.

Couple sitting down and lady came up and handed him her warm jacket as they leaving...................
Doesn't matter what he does with it or she had more at home or weather gets better............

John Marsh
30th Mar 2018, 16:31
racedo:
Most people are good.Excellent point.:D:D I have been in the position of needing, and receiving, the kindness of strangers. There is much more goodness around than a glance through the news suggests.

Krystal n chips
30th Mar 2018, 17:33
As Hell no longer exists, along with the residents, this lot may become redundant very shortly ....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/30/vatican-to-hold-exorcist-training-course-after-rise-in-possessions-exorcism-priests

lomapaseo
30th Mar 2018, 18:28
As Hell no longer exists, along with the residents, this lot may become redundant very shortly ....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...orcism-priests

will that procedure also work on wives?

vapilot2004
30th Mar 2018, 20:53
One described it as like a mountain of people in front of you all clambouring in and out of the people above and around you as you wanted to get to the top but in reality never moved as those joining pulled people down

Sounds a lot like a typical multi-national conglomerate.

ian_bird
31st Mar 2018, 14:27
I'm not going to Hell.

Satan's got a restraining order out on me.

funfly
31st Mar 2018, 22:21
(and it is Good Friday where Jesus died for Man sins)
With a great deal of respect for any believers, I do have a problem with that statement.
I understand that little babies are still 'christened' to help remove the 'sin' that they are born with, that seems to mean that the original sin that mankind carries wasn't removed when Jesus died on the cross.
My first wife went to church (of England) just after she delivered my children to be 'churched' thereby, she told me, removing the sin of conception. I never got to grips with any of this.
However, I do concede that religion of any form has the ability to socially control people in a way that no government has.
FF

racedo
31st Mar 2018, 23:40
With a great deal of respect for any believers, I do have a problem with that statement.
I understand that little babies are still 'christened' to help remove the 'sin' that they are born with, that seems to mean that the original sin that mankind carries wasn't removed when Jesus died on the cross.
My first wife went to church (of England) just after she delivered my children to be 'churched' thereby, she told me, removing the sin of conception. I never got to grips with any of this.
However, I do concede that religion of any form has the ability to socially control people in a way that no government has.
FF

"Socially control "............ get real.

I sat at Good Friday services with i reckon at least 40 other Nationalities (minimum) yesterday and there were less than 300 people in the church.

We weren't socially controlled by anybody................. people were there by Free Will.

That is what gets Anthiests and Agnostics that somehow because people "CHOOSE" something which they hate then the people are somehow wrong.

Ascend Charlie
1st Apr 2018, 00:24
"Socially control "............ get real.

Racedo, if your government made laws that said you must not eat meat on Friday, you must never eat pork, you cannot drive a car or light a fire on some other day, and you are not allowed to use contraceptives, the populace would be outraged.

But if the pope or the rabbi says it, the followers obey.

Social control by any other word...

meadowrun
1st Apr 2018, 00:28
The leaders of an organization founded to control a mythical grouping of primitive, poorly educated, mostly illiterate, hand-me-down, word-of-mouth tales and the believers of such have pronounced there is a correction to the dogma promoted for two thousand years.
A new bible2.138 will be released soon incorporating these software changes re: hell and the previously twirled about face on aliens.


A Ponzi scheme like no other.
Happy Friday.

MG23
1st Apr 2018, 00:32
But if the pope or the rabbi says it, the followers obey.

I only know a handful of Catholics, but none of them take much notice of what this fake Pope says. Most of them seem quite embarrassed by him, to be honest.

Didn't Nostrodamus or someone predict centuries ago that this one would be the last Pope?

funfly
1st Apr 2018, 01:11
Racedo,
As someone who has posted many comments that I absolutely agree with, I apologise if I have given you any offence. Age has not given me wisdom.

There are things that I don't believe in and matters that I don't understand, this does not mean that I disrespect anyone who does believe or who does understand.

Without suggesting any disrespect for any religion, I still claim that a religion has a stronger social sway than the State. It is fundamental that a believer will be more receptive to instructions coming from God than getting the same instructions from the State.

Please don't be too dismissive of Atheists, many have researched the subject well and have simply arrived at a differing perception than those who subscribe to religious beliefs. We should not present a challenge to you but offer an opportunity to both to examine and further understand religious following.

FF

MG23
1st Apr 2018, 01:27
I still claim that a religion has a stronger social sway than the State.

If true, the modern West wouldn't be atheist.

I'd say what you're missing is that Statism is just another religion. As is modern atheism.

meadowrun
1st Apr 2018, 04:30
religion has a stronger social sway than the State
This is probably true among the more ignorant (ill/un-educated.
Religion needs ignorance among the masses to work.
The princlples of Slavery and the management of it can mostly be applied to organized religions, while letting the slaves believe they have free will.
And I will disagree that atheism and agnosticism are "religions".
I've never seen one atheists meeting hall ever, and I've never been to one single meeting of any type with atheists and have not one desire to do that.
Taking that decision is real "free-will".


If organized religions were really true to their teachings - you would not find one scrap of gold, one jewel, one richly embroidered robe or one Mercedes
in the hands of the religious organizations. It would have all been used to help.

MG23
1st Apr 2018, 05:16
I've never seen one atheists meeting hall ever, and I've never been to one single meeting of any type with atheists and have not one desire to do that.

Good for you. But utterly irrelevant.

Individual 'I don't believe in God' atheists are one thing. But the 'I believe in Dawkins, not God. Smite the unbelievers!' Atheist Militant mob I run across on the Internet are just another religion.

As is the left's worship of 'Equality' and the Glorious People's State.

People want something to believe in, and when the left destroyed the church, it was so they could take its place. They only real difference is that they proclaim that we'll have Heaven here on Earth instead of after death, if only we all bow down and worship The Great Leader.

meadowrun
1st Apr 2018, 05:29
Never even thought of looking on the net for atheist groups. What a hoot! Sheep.
Never been much of a joiner of anything. Sort of joined PPRuNe, I guess.
We are planning a trip to Mars.
We still believe in spoken word hand-me-downs (manipulated by religious "authorities" as necessary to keep things under control and further their importance) from our peasant forefathers who in their ignorance (not blaming) were vastly superstitious about the manifestations of the processes of the natural world.
Striving for the stars with a ball and chain firmly attached.

Krystal n chips
1st Apr 2018, 05:32
We seem to have diversified a bit from the original topic....which is possibly a good thing because filling the gap between Hull and Halifax would be a bit difficult with somewhere else in Yorkshire beginning with "H".....although Huddersfield would be a close contender.

Anyway, here's one of the more, erm, insightful religious perspectives.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d2HWftSQY

Ascend Charlie
1st Apr 2018, 06:54
You got some subtitles for that, KNC?

Krystal n chips
1st Apr 2018, 08:32
You got some subtitles for that, KNC?

Being English, albeit with a distinct empathy towards and enjoyment of Scotland and the population, I would suggest you ask this question to our Scottish contributors .

However, if it helps, I understand the lyrics related to that famed sporting rivalry and etiquette, open mindedness, along with the sartorial images, between Rangers and Celtic football supporters. ;)

sitigeltfel
1st Apr 2018, 08:35
Hell doesn't exist?

The Pope should try visiting Cumbernauld!

racedo
1st Apr 2018, 12:24
Racedo, if your government made laws that said you must not eat meat on Friday, you must never eat pork, you cannot drive a car or light a fire on some other day, and you are not allowed to use contraceptives, the populace would be outraged.

But if the pope or the rabbi says it, the followers obey.

Social control by any other word...

You know one of the biggest things I have heard throughtout my life from various priests is the concept that God gave man Free Will.

The cannot eat Pork came about because Pork was unclean, couldn't be stored beyond a day or so and was responsible for mass outbreaks of poisoning where the 3 Abrahamic religions come from.

racedo
1st Apr 2018, 12:30
Racedo,
As someone who has posted many comments that I absolutely agree with, I apologise if I have given you any offence. Age has not given me wisdom.

FF

I can only take offence, you cannot give offence..................... and I haven't. Appreciate your point.

Majority of Atheists / Agnostics have come across have little understanding of what it is, most come from a position of a distaste / hatred of religion.

racedo
1st Apr 2018, 12:33
If true, the modern West wouldn't be atheist.

I'd say what you're missing is that Statism is just another religion. As is modern atheism.

The modern religion is consumerism where you can do as you want albeit with various branches i.e. Apple / Facebook etc etc.
People get told that holding onto values is wrong as business will tell you what values are important.

racedo
1st Apr 2018, 12:39
People want something to believe in, and when the left destroyed the church, it was so they could take its place. They only real difference is that they proclaim that we'll have Heaven here on Earth instead of after death, if only we all bow down and worship The Great Leader.

Don't see anything to disagree with................... Nazi's attempted to do this but they were not the first.

The blaming of the left for destruction is only part of the story, the right attempt to take religion and subsume it as part of the state using biblical tracts as justification.

One only has to look at how 10 Commandments get enshrined into law and statues put up to them. The pious right is even worse than the left in their hypocrisy.

Crownstay01
1st Apr 2018, 12:58
I'd say what you're missing is that Statism is just another religion. As is modern atheism.

Yeah, nah. Atheism is only the observation that there is not, and never has been, any evidence for the existence of god(s).

troppo
1st Apr 2018, 13:11
Sounds like he is selling salvation to all the pedos and molesters from his very church. Wouldn't want them burning in hell for all eternity now would we.

Religion - an experience with a money back guarantee if you don't like your chosen 'heaven' upon arrival

The Holy Bible - greatest piece of fiction/fantasy ever written, narrowly beating the Harry Potter series

Buster15
1st Apr 2018, 13:39
Hell or Heaven, they are both figments of peoples imagination.
Knowledge has always been power and IMHO religion was essentially just that; a method of controlling other people.
Modern science is in the process of revealing when and how our Universe burst into life.
As to WHY, that will remain subjective assuming you don't believe in God...

funfly
1st Apr 2018, 13:55
The Holy Bible - greatest piece of fiction/fantasy ever written.
The old testament is simply a collection of stories by some wise men in their day in order to explain to their 'flock' what life is all about. Some of the stories are wise, some are weird (Lot?) but in many cases, events that they didn't have the answer to have been attributed to God. The conclusions that they came to they attributed to being influenced by 'the word of God' - seems fair enough to me. New Testament, most of it was written hundreds of years after the event and heavily manipulated by the church at the time.
To read it and understand what the writers were trying to say seems sensible to me, to believe every word literally seems a bit unenlightened. However if doing this brings some sort of meaning to the lives of people who do this, so be it. Humans all over the world have shown a need to believe in some sort of 'superbeing' to explain anything that they do not understand.
One of the biggest hang-ups Christians have is this obsession with 'Sin', To me it's a pity as there could be a lot more constructive things that their religions could propagate. How it is important to baptise a new born baby to prevent it going to Limbo if it dies unbaptised is beyond my understanding, how you can justify circumcising a young baby, girl or boy, with no medical reason is beyond me, how you can justify killing people simply because they don't subscribe to the same religion is beyond me.
Am I wrong and are those religious people out there right?
Is it only the religion that someone belongs to that is right and all the others wrong?

goudie
1st Apr 2018, 14:01
Sounds just like politics to me.

John Marsh
1st Apr 2018, 14:11
Do you think that humanity would ever get to a place where they felt they did not have to get help from an outside source? Do you think there ever will come a day where houses of worship are simply antique buildings? It seems to be a stretch of the imagination until you think of this. What does evolution of consciousness mean to you? It's not going to be something that is forced upon humanity. Rather, it is something that humanity is going to see for themselves over time. It is going to be logical and make sense through a slowly evolving consciousness. Over time, humanity will begin to understand what the masters really meant and start practicing what they said. For eons, Humans have been told that the most sacred things that exist are inside every single Human Being. "Made in his image" means made in the image of love and, in that, humanity would start to realize that the image God the creator has always been inside. Therefore, Humans can access God, spirit, ancestors instantly, through processes that are built-in.New Age source. (http://www.kryon.com/CHAN2018/k_channel18_anchorage.html):eek:

racedo
1st Apr 2018, 14:54
New Age source. (http://www.kryon.com/CHAN2018/k_channel18_anchorage.html):eek:

Strange they all wants lots of money to attend their "events"................

oldchina
1st Apr 2018, 15:06
I've never met anyone who gives a sh!t about what the church thinks

fitliker
1st Apr 2018, 15:08
I would have thought that a Jesuit educated Priest would have been familiar with the Credo statement of faith used by the Holy Roman Catholics, Where Jesus spends three days in hell .
Just more fake news by one of the anti-Catholic communist reporters that have sold their souls to an ideology that has not evolved since it was written by a kept man. A man who relied on a rich patron to create a destabilising theory of economics .
That said : If the Priest had stuck to speaking only the Gospel and the teachings of Christ and left What is Caesars to Caesar .He would not stumble into the minefield of stupid politics.

mickjoebill
1st Apr 2018, 15:12
As a cradle to grave Catholic


As to concept of Hell, does exist I have zero doubt of that..

I have read of a couple of different people who passed to the other side in near death experience ...
One described it as like a mountain of people in front of you all clambouring in and out of the people above and around you as you wanted to get to the top but in reality never moved as those joining pulled people down..............
Second was walls of corridors where hands grabbing you as you going along to drag you into various rooms / areas where hot, smoke and fire all around.



Only recently scientists have monitored the brain activity of the dying and perhaps, will give us reason to the ‘orrible visions described above.

As our brain dies the electrical reactions create the same pattern as when we are morose and depressed.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html
Mjb

John Marsh
1st Apr 2018, 15:29
Strange they all wants lots of money to attend their "events"................

Not necessarily. The Deceiver's Disciples are well rewarded. (In this life, anyway).:E

Discorde
1st Apr 2018, 18:31
This religious stuff is very confusing to a young lad, as narrated here.

Turbine D
1st Apr 2018, 21:24
This "Heaven" and "Hell" discussion is quite interesting, but I think going back deeper in history is needed. The Old Testament of the Bible is fairly well documented as being the history of the Jewish sect, their traverses, their wars and their religious beliefs. Jesus was born a Jew and if it were not for this fact and what followed, there probably would be no Christianity as a religion.

In the OT, the word "Hell" is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol. Its primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead. It is never used by Moses or the Prophets in the sense of a place of torment after death. Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but a grave only, or the place of death. The word "Heaven" isn't used as a rewarding place to be in the afterlife, rather it is only the abode of God.

Somewhere after Jesus' death and the birth of Christianity and in some of the NT books appeared the two words translated into English, "Heaven" or "Hell" to describe the afterlife, good or bad. They also appear then in Christian translations of the OT. There are no books in the OT that tackle the afterlife positioning except for being dead in a grave somewhere.

So maybe the Pope is correct about "Hell", and he just hasn't gotten around to addressing "Heaven" yet...

Ascend Charlie
1st Apr 2018, 23:48
When you sit down to read a book or watch a film, you activate the "Suspension of Disbelief" button, and anything that happens in the book or on the screen is accepted as being real, for the duration of the book/film.

Same with the bible, a nice story, but remember to come back to reality when you close the book.

Tankertrashnav
2nd Apr 2018, 11:05
I've never met anyone who gives a sh!t about what the church thinks

Really? What a sheltered life you have led!

Andy_S
2nd Apr 2018, 12:23
The Holy Bible - greatest piece of fiction/fantasy ever written, narrowly beating the Harry Potter series

Well, it's certainly been corrupted and edited by men who lived many years after Jesus to suit their own ends.

I'm not an atheist, but I have little time for organised religion which strikes me as, at best, a bogus concept, at worst a way to exert control over the masses.

John Marsh
2nd Apr 2018, 13:21
When you sit down to read a book or watch a film, you activate the "Suspension of Disbelief" button, and anything that happens in the book or on the screen is accepted as being real, for the duration of the book/film.

Same with the bible, a nice story, but remember to come back to reality when you close the book.

A good analogy and excellent advice!:D

In a similar vein, I would suggest: believe as you wish, but do not mistake beliefs for absolutes.

I feel a mixture of pity and annoyance when I hear adults proclaim that Biblical material is incontrovertible truth. I understand that they have, essentially, been 'brainwashed by a book'. With the probable assistance of clergy and family.

Take a look at the state of the world. How much of the misery and conflict is caused by believers, of whatever stripe, mistaking their beliefs for truths?

Identifying beliefs and accepting them as such allows for much more flexibility in dealings with those who do not share them. There is then no need to force one's 'truth' upon anyone.

Of course, identifying one's beliefs as such entails relinquishing the sense of certainty and security which is the payoff from holding tightly to 'truths'.

Can we evolve to the point of emotional security where we can let go of falsely-identified 'truths'?

Tankertrashnav
2nd Apr 2018, 18:30
I think there is one sentence somewhere in the Bible which has led to the Jehovah's Witnesses being implacably opposed to blood transfusions. Mrs TTN as a midwife had to witness a woman who had just given birth to twins die because she refused a transfusion in spite of being told the inevitable consequence. Her husband, now a single father of two new-born babies told her Jehovah's Witness relatives and friends that he would never forgive them or let any of them within a hundred miles of his children.

After that incident my polite refusals to let them through my door changed when they called with their copies of Watchtower . Now they are met with "bugger off or I will set my German Shepherd on you".

There is a lot of good stuff in the Bible (love thy neighbour etc) but there is also an awful lot of tosh. Mind you, I once read that we are not allowed to eat rock badgers, and I have refrained from eating them ever since!

racedo
2nd Apr 2018, 21:28
I think there is one sentence somewhere in the Bible which has led to the Jehovah's Witnesses being implacably opposed to blood transfusions. Mrs TTN as a midwife had to witness a woman who had just given birth to twins die because she refused a transfusion in spite of being told the inevitable consequence. Her husband, now a single father of two new-born babies told her Jehovah's Witness relatives and friends that he would never forgive them or let any of them within a hundred miles of his children.

After that incident my polite refusals to let them through my door changed when they called with their copies of Watchtower . Now they are met with "bugger off or I will set my German Shepherd on you".

There is a lot of good stuff in the Bible (love thy neighbour etc) but there is also an awful lot of tosh. Mind you, I once read that we are not allowed to eat rock badgers, and I have refrained from eating them ever since!

Think this happened a couple of times in Ireland in relation to Children so they just applied to make Childen a Ward of Court.

Slow Biker
2nd Apr 2018, 22:28
Look, the Pope IS infallible. I know because, as a nine year old, I was taught that at school by Sister Benedict. If one didn't listen the sharp edge of a ruler was applied to one's knuckles with machine gun speed. So it was best to agree.

Discorde
3rd Apr 2018, 11:32
Look, the Pope IS infallible. I know because, as a nine year old, I was taught that at school by Sister Benedict. If one didn't listen the sharp edge of a ruler was applied to one's knuckles with machine gun speed. So it was best to agree.

The most miserable year of my life (at the age of 7 after my parents acrimoniously divorced) was as a boarder at a Catholic school (St Mary of the Angels, Burgess Hill, Sussex) staffed by nuns. We were brainwashed with religious dogma first lesson every morning, including having to learn the catechism by heart. Discipline was harsh and sometimes verged on cruelty. Many years later I happened to be in the area and decided I would pay a visit to the school to tell the incumbent head teacher exactly what I thought of the repressive regime I and the other children had suffered. I found out that the building had been demolished in the 1960s and replaced with a block of flats. I felt somehow liberated by this discovery, as if a weight had been lifted from my shoulders.

meadowrun
3rd Apr 2018, 11:35
Funny how qualifying as a nun or brother also qualifies them as teachers.


Do any church organizations hold any ISO9000 series certifications?

Lonewolf_50
3rd Apr 2018, 16:18
That said : If the Priest had stuck to speaking only the Gospel and the teachings of Christ and left What is Caesars to Caesar .He would not stumble into the minefield of stupid politics.
Yeah, but this Pope is trying to be a hip and cool 70+ year old ... I am reminded of what the Sundance Kid said to Butch Cassidy (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1003318_butch_cassidy_and_the_sundance_kid?): "You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at."

@TurbineD

In the bosom of Abraham, Luke 16: 19-25.
The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (See also John 5:39-47)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

This is one of the episodes of Jesus providing a teaching. Looks like Heaven and Hell, right there. Not sure what the Pope was talking about, nor what the various press/journos are on about. Since he was not speaking ex cathedra, the headline and claim that the Pope abolished hell is utterly false. (Also from the point of view of logic: if there is a hell (per Catholic belief and teaching) he hasn't the power to abolish it; if there isn't a hell (from a variety of other view points) there is nothing to abolish).
It is been accepted Christian doctrine since the founding of the church, but Pope Francis appears this morning to have abolished Hell. {That right there is a load of crap}
In a move that will enrage conservative Catholics, the Pontiff told La Repubblica that the souls of unrepentant sinners were not punished in the afterlife, but simply disappeared. {The Pope appears unfamiliar with the teachings of Mother Church}
“Hell doesn’t exist, the disappearance of the souls of sinners exists,” he told Eugenio Scalfari, a 93-year-old atheist philosopher, during a conversation in the Vatican. {Contradicts the teaching of both the Magisterium, and Scripture, see above}
It was the fifth meeting between Pope Francis and Mr Scalfari, the founder of one of Italy’s leading newspapers. Mr Scalfari has retired as editor of the Rome daily, but continues as one of its leading writers.
The previous conversations between the two men have also caused controversy What is taught by the Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM)is that souls, after particular judgment, will either head to heaven (with most getting a pit stop in Purgatory) or will by their own choice be separated from God eternally: that is, by Catholic Definition, Hell (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM).

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance": References for the above passage in the Catechism:
Lumen Gentium, 48 # 3; Matthew 22:13; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 25:13, 26, 30, 31, 46; Council of Orange II (529); Council of Trent (1547):1567; 2 Pet 3:9.

No idea what Pope Francis is yammering on about, and not for the first time.

racedo
3rd Apr 2018, 19:56
Funny how qualifying as a nun or brother also qualifies them as teachers.


Do any church organizations hold any ISO9000 series certifications?


Nope it does not as most Nuns / Brothers were never teachers.

Lonewolf_50
3rd Apr 2018, 23:37
Funny how qualifying as a nun or brother also qualifies them as teachers.
Do any church organizations hold any ISO9000 series certifications? Can you cite the documentation that supports this assertion? (your first sentence). It's the first I've heard of that, though some nuns were teachers. (My wife spent a few years in catholic school, and still has an aversion to nuns ...)

Teevee
4th Apr 2018, 10:44
Talk about laugh!!! I just can't stop! I mean all these 'educated' people deriding the 'uneducated' for believing 'anything' are doing exactly the same! The title thread is a bit of a joke anyway 'Official - Pope says Hell doesn't exist'!!! Oh yeah! Right! It'd be more accurate if it said "Official (sort of!) Somebody says that Pope says Hell doesn't exist!" In informed circles the story has been pretty much debunked anyway even though swallowed hook line and sinker by the 'educated' and you only have to read quite a few of the Pope's truly official pronouncements to see that he does believe in the existence of Hell!

John Marsh
4th Apr 2018, 10:53
Which shall it be?

A perfect, omnipotent God which always creates precisely in accordance with Its nature.
...Thus, no wrong uns, no bad, no evil, no Hell in which to incarcerate wrong uns.

A conflicted God which proclaims Its perfection and omnipotence, yet creates wrong uns a-plenty and a latent Satan to boot! This God just loves us to bits, yet It hates many of us utterly.

A wicked tormentor God which proclaims Its kindness whilst spewing out hateful creations and their victims with joyous abandon.

A Creator which encompasses all. All creations, all situations. There is nothing outside of Creation. Not even 'Hell' or 'The Devil'.
This Creator creates without limitations. It creates as a form of exploration of possibilities.
It shuns not the likes of Hitler, Brady and Vlad The Impaler. Just as It shuns not the Dalai Lama, Sir Cliff Richard* and the kind lady pensioner who always buys a Big Issue.

This last God somewhat resembles the first suggestion. Can we handle the lack of bias It displays?

Is mankind making good progress towards examining its own contributions to Earthly strife? Instead of blaming them on a well-meaning but partially deaf and myopic God, or a scheming Devil?

Just how many of our own characteristics have been applied to 'God' and 'Satan' over the centuries?

*Yes I know, that's stretching it a bit!

Lonewolf_50
4th Apr 2018, 13:58
@John Marsh: if you don't actually know Christian teaching and theology, but instead set up various caricatures of it to lampoon, I'd suggest that rather than trying to be clever you take a little time to learn the theology that you are mocking. (There are a variety of very good sources of theology on line, be it Reformed, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, the Westminster Confession, and others if you take a little time to search).

pulse1
4th Apr 2018, 14:21
John Marsh, if you can't be bothered to follow Lonewolf's suggestion, perhaps you can listen to Jordan Peterson's ideas about God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-wWBGo6a2w

Even if you don't agree with him it should make you, and maybe others on here, realise the futility of expressing glib ideas about the transcendent areas of life, including God.

Ascend Charlie
5th Apr 2018, 07:57
The whole creation bit is simply a nice story, to give a "reason" for something for which we have no explanation.

Let's run a scenario:

Scene 1: Garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve, both naked and unashamed (and without a navel). And pig-ignorant, because they were ordered not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
Option 1:

They die of starvation, because they have no knowledge of what to eat.

Option 2:

They find things to eat, but eventually grow old and die, without reproducing, because they have no knowledge of sex.

Option 3:

They manage to discover what sex is about, but are terrified when a bleeding critter emerges from Eve, and kill it.

Scene 2:
Garden of Eden, later.
Option 1:
Big G wondering where it all went wrong. Decides to scrap the whole thing and have a nap.

Option 2:
Big g admits, yeah, it was never going to go that way, Adam and Eve were always intended to ignore the Rules and chew on the apple. The Garden was only ever a short-term option, and the two had to leave for farther places and incestuously reproduce to populate the world. Despite only having two sons, one of which made an exit, stage left.

Scene 3:
Big G decides to kill everybody on earth, because he really doesn't like them. Except for Noah and his family, who are again left to incestuously re-populate the earth.

Scene 4:
He STILL doesn't like the people, so he sends plagues and misfortunes on the ugly ones. Then he sends a son to save the world, but the world doesn't like him and he departs stage left. And that supposedly saves everybody who Believes the book, which turns out to be a best-seller.

G-CPTN
5th Apr 2018, 09:18
The whole creation bit is simply a nice story, to give a "reason" for something for which we have no explanation.

Leaving aside any religious involvement, how would a baby feed itself if it was the first human on Earth?

Where would a baby come from if there were no adults?

Chicken and egg argument.

There's something that doesn't add up - even if they were aliens from another planet.

Tankertrashnav
5th Apr 2018, 10:05
Think this happened a couple of times in Ireland in relation to Children so they just applied to make Childen a Ward of Court

Indeed racedo , and the same thing happens in the UK. Mrs TTN was involved in a couple of cases like this during her time as a midwife. However in this case it was the mother who needed the transfusion and she could not be forced to have a transfusion, in law such an action would have laid the medical staff open to assault charges. In the case of minors they have no such restriction and normally act without delay, more commonly when the baby is feared to be at risk of abuse or neglect when it returns home.

Crownstay01
5th Apr 2018, 10:34
@John Marsh: if you don't actually know Christian teaching and theology, but instead set up various caricatures of it to lampoon, I'd suggest that rather than trying to be clever you take a little time to learn the theology that you are mocking.

What is theology? If you took the word at face value you'd assume it was the study of gods. But that isn't what theologians do, is it? They're only concerned with how to derive doctrine and dogma from religious texts.

With any serious area of study, you actually have to have something to study first. Biologists study biology, chemists study chemistry, physicists study physics, and so on. But theologians are working in a field suffering from a compete lack of hard observational data.

Crownstay01
5th Apr 2018, 10:39
...it should make you, and maybe others on here, realise the futility of expressing glib ideas about the transcendent areas of life, including God.

Transcendent = made-up, non-existent, woo. What's futile is pretending that these things have any independent existence outside your own imagination.

John Marsh
5th Apr 2018, 12:03
@John Marsh: if you don't actually know Christian teaching and theology, but instead set up various caricatures of it to lampoon, I'd suggest that rather than trying to be clever you take a little time to learn the theology that you are mocking. (There are a variety of very good sources of theology on line, be it Reformed, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, the Westminster Confession, and others if you take a little time to search).

pulse1:
John Marsh, if you can't be bothered to follow Lonewolf's suggestion, perhaps you can listen to Jordan Peterson's ideas about God.
Even if you don't agree with him it should make you, and maybe others on here, realise the futility of expressing glib ideas about the transcendent areas of life, including God.I assure you, I am not trying to be clever or to mock. I continue along my path of trying to make sense of life and my/our place in it.

Many years ago, I did go through a religious (C of E) phase. I find that I can no longer accept the Christian model. This is not to say I reject the idea of a Creator God, or indeed the Jesus personality. I simply cannot believe as Christians believe.

Rosevidney1
5th Apr 2018, 12:17
The one book on Christianity I can recommend unreservedly is Jesus the Man by Barbara Thiering. She had worked on the Dead Sea scroll for years before committing her findings to the book which I consider to be at the highest level of scholarship. The work will upset many Christians but it explains so much of the very early days.

Lonewolf_50
5th Apr 2018, 13:11
John, since Christians (when one includes all flavors) differ on some of the particulars of belief (and sometimes with great energy and vehemence) "not believing as Christians believe" is a phrase that lacks substance. That said, we each believe what we will, in our heart of hearts, so best wishes to you in all things.

(One of my favorite bun fights is the so called Filioque controversy between the Greek Orthodox and the Catholic confessions, a disagreement apparently stemming from some idiomatic and/or grammatical problems in transition from Greek to Latin over a thousand years ago. It is still a source of division between those two long standing churches ... and when I see the distinction through another translation into English, I am led to ask: "Really? You're still arguing about that?" )

John Marsh
5th Apr 2018, 17:07
John, since Christians (when one includes all flavors) differ on some of the particulars of belief (and sometimes with great energy and vehemence) "not believing as Christians believe" is a phrase that lacks substance. That said, we each believe what we will, in our heart of hearts, so best wishes to you in all things.

(One of my favorite bun fights is the so called Filioque controversy between the Greek Orthodox and the Catholic confessions, a disagreement apparently stemming from some idiomatic and/or grammatical problems in transition from Greek to Latin over a thousand years ago. It is still a source of division between those two long standing churches ... and when I see the distinction through another translation into English, I am led to ask: "Really? You're still arguing about that?" )
The elements I cannot accept include: an omnipotent and perfect God which creates that which It rejects.

A supposedly enlightened and enlightening Jesus who declares that He is the only way to Heaven/salvation. What about other religions? What about the billions of kind folk who follow no religion?

The idea of doing good deeds in expectation of rewards in Heaven. That is self-interest, which can lead to smugness and judgment of others.

I don't know if I have been exposed to a particular 'niche' of Christian belief, whose adherents 'differ on some of the particulars of belief', which has engendered my rejection of the Christian religion.

Your point about disagreements within Christianity is well made. Of course, it also applies to religion in general.

pulse1
5th Apr 2018, 17:49
John

"A supposedly enlightened and enlightening Jesus who declares that He is the only way to Heaven/salvation."

This is the sort of issue which Jordan Peterson, linked in my previous post, is so helpful. He starts with statements like this one with the question, "what does this mean?" It could mean, for example, that the only way we can be lifted from the limitations put on our lives by our conscious and unconscious minds is by accepting the basic principles taught by Christ. I personally believe that, if someone worked that out for themselves, quite possible, then they have discovered the "only way to Heaven/salvation" as you put it. They may never have heard of Christ (but if they then did so, they would recognise him immediately). Peterson fits the Biblical stories into the evolutionary process since man developed from monkeys. he offers a new and exiting perception of what religion means.

Ascend Charlie
5th Apr 2018, 23:08
The Old Testament, all the Abrahamic stuff, is fairly common to the Jews and the Muslims.

JC comes along, he is a jew. Son of Big G, head of the whole show. But JC's followers depart from the original faith, contravening Daddy, to change the sabbath from Friday to Sunday and to try that delicious roast pork they had heard about.

These followers then proclaim that their way is the only way to get to heaven. As do the followers of the arab chap 600 years later.

Was Big G disappointed in his son, for tearing up what he had created, and saying that everybody else is wrong?

IS everybody wrong, including the devout followers? The poor little indigenies in a bark shelter offering sacrifices to the god of water/crops/fertility have never had the chance to read that delightful little book. Are they not worth "saving"?

John Marsh
6th Apr 2018, 11:10
John

"A supposedly enlightened and enlightening Jesus who declares that He is the only way to Heaven/salvation."

This is the sort of issue which Jordan Peterson, linked in my previous post, is so helpful. He starts with statements like this one with the question, "what does this mean?" It could mean, for example, that the only way we can be lifted from the limitations put on our lives by our conscious and unconscious minds is by accepting the basic principles taught by Christ. I personally believe that, if someone worked that out for themselves, quite possible, then they have discovered the "only way to Heaven/salvation" as you put it. They may never have heard of Christ (but if they then did so, they would recognise him immediately). Peterson fits the Biblical stories into the evolutionary process since man developed from monkeys. he offers a new and exiting perception of what religion means.

That's an interesting way you have framed the issue.

I have been exploring the broad issue of expanding awareness of self beyond the limitations of the conscious mind. I am reading 'Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul', by Jane Roberts. This is channeled material - purportedly received by Ms Roberts from a discarnate entity.

I do find I can give this material and its like some 'head space'. I term it 'unofficial information' and take it with a pinch of salt.

Perhaps the original offerings of help and enlightenment from Jesus (and others?) have been seized by religious authorities and thus distorted.

Fishtailed
7th Apr 2018, 01:00
At primary school we were told that only us, catholics, went to heaven. I remember my dad, as we had our sunday egg and bacon after church, looking out the window as the C of E lot were going to the church next door to our house, telling us- "there they go, thinking their saved" I now understand he was being sarcastic! He wasn't brainwashed, but I didn't realise until much later in life.

charliegolf
7th Apr 2018, 12:26
At primary school we were told that only us, catholics, went to heaven. I remember my dad, as we had our sunday egg and bacon after church, looking out the window as the C of E lot were going to the church next door to our house, telling us- "there they go, thinking their saved" I now understand he was being sarcastic! He wasn't brainwashed, but I didn't realise until much later in life.

Hence the old joke about the C of E man who went to heaven. As he was being shown around by St Pete, they pass along a high wall with the sound of much levity coming from beyond. "What's all the fun?" he asks. "Oh", says St Pete, "That's the Catholics, they think they're the only ones here!"

CG

Lonewolf_50
11th Apr 2018, 20:12
What is theology? You are invited to educate yourself.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theology

At primary school we were told that only us, catholics, went to heaven. I remember my dad, as we had our sunday egg and bacon after church, looking out the window as the C of E lot were going to the church next door to our house, telling us- "there they go, thinking their saved" I now understand he was being sarcastic! He wasn't brainwashed, but I didn't realise until much later in life. While I think that the Church has never actually rescinded the position of "There is no salvation outside of the church" that was ruled at the Council of Trent, the byproduct of Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, particularly section 16, leaves open the hope of salvation for those without ... which some old School Catholics were pretty upset about and still are.

@CharlieGolf
*double grin*

Crownstay01
9th May 2018, 16:42
You are invited to educate yourself.

Uneccessary. The definition you linked reflects my previous comment.

1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world.

As I noted previously, theologians are working in a field suffering from a compete lack of hard observational data.