EASA/Brexit

[DunePrune]

Will Brexit have any implications for the UK's participation in EASA?

[RHRP]

In her Brexit speech on 2 March Teresa May said:

“We will also want to explore with the EU, the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those that are critical for the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries: the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), and the European Aviation Safety Agency.
We would, of course, accept that this would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution.”

RHRP

[ExXB]

.. but not having a vote.

[Denti]

As the rulemaking in the EU is done largely by organisations like EASA and the final authority for those is the european court, there will be something of a conflict there as those that want to work with EASA have to fall under that jurisdiction.

[ShotOne]

There’ll be lots of posturing from all sides but the end of the day there will be a deal struck. The cost of there not being one done is simply too high for all parties.

[ATC Watcher]

From EASA web site : n addition to the member states of the European union, the countries part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), i.e. Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, have been granted participation under Article 66 of the Basic Regulation and are members of the Management Board without voting rights.[6] There are also numerous working relationships with other authorities.[7]

Looks like if UK leaves EFTA , they will be treated like the others ,e.g Turkey, you can follow the rules, but not part of the discussions .

[tubby linton]

I just hope that the UK will leave the flawed FTL that were introduced by EASA. They were introduced to appease european cabin crew unions with no regard to the science of fatigue that had been closely studied by the UK for forty years.
The other thing I would like kicked into touch is Eu261.This flawed rule gives an over generous payment regardless of the price paid for a ticket.It woulddn’t take a computer geek to work out which flights are regularly cancelled and then buy tickets cheaply and claim a disproportionate amount as a claim.
As a professional pilot my opinion of EASA and what they have done to protect my safety and my career, is very poor. They certainly do not appear to help the users of the airspace only the employers.

[tubby linton]

I wonder if UK issued EASA licenses will still be valid for work on the Continent?
Air France are recruiting 200 pilots but it is a pre-requisite that you have to be a french national to apply and if you don’t have a relative already working there you will not be offered a job- as told to me by my French co-pilot.
There really is no hope when this level of nepotism and nationalism is standard at a flag carrier.

[ATC Watcher]

you have to be a french national to apply and if you don’t have a relative already working there you will not be offered a job
The first part is against EU rules and is not correct , the second sounds like corruption , and is punishable by law so I doubt seriously the statement of your " French F/0"
What is true is that you have to speak fluently French as in France , the basic regulations are in French and the spoken language inside AF is French. ( the same applies in some other EU countries , like Spain for instance)

[polax52]

As a professional pilot my opinion of EASA and what they have done to protect my safety and my career, is very poor. They certainly do not appear to help the users of the airspace only the employers.

My experience of the UK CAA from times gone by has one been of a bureaucratic nightmare established by unelected Civil Servants. I don't see EASA as being worse. In fact all the arguments put forward by Brexiters regarding their opinions of Brussels just seem to sum up the old CAA to me.

[polax52]

Tubby: I agree with you on the nepotism thing. I have a mexican friend who justifies it by saying that the logical choice to an Airline is to select the children of it's Pilots as they are a known quantity i.e. less of a risk. Obviously it's unacceptable though in a reasonable society.

[tubby linton]

The first part is against EU rules and is not correct , the second sounds like corruption , and is punishable by law so I doubt seriously the statement of your " French F/0"
What is true is that you have to speak fluently French as in France , the basic regulations are in French and the spoken language inside AF is French. ( the same applies in some other EU countries , like Spain for instance)
The proof is that another FO whose father is an AF board member has been recruited with a minimal selection. My FO ,a very pleasant young lady of mixed ancestry but with a French passport is still waiting for an interview. The first FO has handed in his notice and will be leaving for Paris in the next few months.
They both had a similar level of experience.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

In her Brexit speech on 2 March Teresa May said:

“We will also want to explore with the EU, the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies such as those that are critical for the chemicals, medicines and aerospace industries: the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), and the European Aviation Safety Agency.
We would, of course, accept that this would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution.”

Sadly, this is free rainbow coloured flying unicorn cake territory, as she has an overriding red line, which is no subservience to the ECJ. So we're out of EASA. As she said very firmly some time earlier, "#brexit means #brexit".

[polax52]

Sadly, this is free rainbow coloured flying unicorn cake territory, as she has an overriding red line, which is no subservience to the ECJ. So we're out of EASA. As she said very firmly some time earlier, "#brexit means #brexit".

For this reason alone, the original Brexit is impossible. It's not possible to ground our Airline industry because we won't acknowledge the authority of the ECJ. If 43% of the industry is grounded then everything is grounded.

The only way the original Brexit can work would be if the EU capitulates and we do get our cake and eat it. Let's hope for that eh.:ok:

[SpGo]

The proof is that another FO whose father is an AF board member has been recruited with a minimal selection. My FO ,a very pleasant young lady of mixed ancestry but with a French passport is still waiting for an interview. The first FO has handed in his notice and will be leaving for Paris in the next few months.
They both had a similar level of experience.

Not correct!
I fly, on a daily basis, with pilots from the Air France waiting list, they are called for courses in strict order of the list, they all tell the same story about the interview, and have different nationalities. You have to be fluent in French, but you won’t pass the BA recruitment if you are not fluent in English either.

[fab777]

Air France are recruiting 200 pilots but it is a pre-requisite that you have to be a french national to apply and if you don’t have a relative already working there you will not be offered a job- as told to me by my French co-pilot.
There really is no hope when this level of nepotism and nationalism is standard at a flag carrier.

Wrong. Try here, it is really not that hard (provided you can read french, which is not that hard either, I can read english...):

http://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/etre-pilote-de-ligne-air-france

By the way, I just spent most of last week with a british F/O, a very fine gentleman who happens to fly for AF... But I am afraid there will be no more like him joining the airline past 2019. Not by Airfrance's fault, mind you...

[polax52]

Wrong. Try here, it is really not that hard (provided you can read french, which is not that hard either, I can read english...):

ÊTRE PILOTE DE LIGNE A AIR FRANCE | Air France - Corporate (http://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/etre-pilote-de-ligne-air-france)

By the way, I just spent most of last week with a british F/O, a very fine gentleman who happens to fly for AF... But I am afraid there will be no more like him joining the airline past 2019. Not by Airfrance's fault, mind you...

Very Good reply...:ok:

[tubby linton]

I can only post what I was told by a French national who I fly with. Why would they wish to lie?

[tubby linton]

My experience of the UK CAA from times gone by has one been of a bureaucratic nightmare established by unelected Civil Servants. I don't see EASA as being worse. In fact all the arguments put forward by Brexiters regarding their opinions of Brussels just seem to sum up the old CAA to me.
Cap 371 was based on decades of research and scientific study that the CAA listened to and then adapted the rules. I don’t think EASA listen to anybody apart from the airlines. They exemplify everything that is wrong with the EU.

[DaveReidUK]

Wrong. Try here, it is really not that hard (provided you can read french, which is not that hard either, I can read english...):

ÊTRE PILOTE DE LIGNE A AIR FRANCE | Air France - Corporate (http://corporate.airfrance.com/fr/etre-pilote-de-ligne-air-france)

Obviously if AF had a racist/nepotist hiring policy, they would make sure to mention that in their recruitment advertising.

[macdo]

I doubt very much that the CAA has the capability to become a sovereign authority anytime soon. It has become largely a rubber stamp dept. of EASA and doesn't like the idea of having to 'do' legislation. It has become de-skilled, which I suspect is true of many government agencies in the Uk.
As for legacy European flag carriers welcoming alien pilots? You're 'aving a laugh!

[clamchowder]

On sky news a few months back they claimed the UK CAA provides almost 60% of whatever it is EASA does.

[Freehills]

I can only post what I was told by a French national who I fly with. Why would they wish to lie?

To ensure you don't apply and compete with them? Or maybe they themselves are just repeating an urban myth

[Avenger]

Getting back to the original question, why would Brexit effect the working relationship with EASA? Other " European "countries that are not members of the EU have working relationships with EASA.. It does not make any financial sense to re-write the FTLS etc etc, they took years to implement and will take years to change and I doubt the CAA has any stomach for this level of admin when it makes no practical sense...The question of pilot recruitment and language is another issue, why would the French and Germans require EASA english language proficiency!

[Nemrytter]

Air France are recruiting 200 pilots but it is a pre-requisite that you have to be a french national to apply and if you don’t have a relative already working there you will not be offered a job- as told to me by my French co-pilot.One of my mates was just recruited by Air France, he's Swedish. I find it odd that you moan (incorrectly) about EASA FTLs being unscientific, yet fail to do any of your own research about Air France recruitment. Somewhat hypocritical, eh?

[Nemrytter]

On sky news a few months back they claimed the UK CAA provides almost 60% of whatever it is EASA does.It was 40% input, and is a UK govt figure. They never (to my knowledge) released their method of calculating that figure.

Article on sky news mentioning this figure is here:
https://news.sky.com/story/govt-to-stay-in-eu-air-safety-body-in-blurring-of-brexit-red-line-11151049

[VinRouge]

Getting back to the original question, why would Brexit effect the working relationship with EASA? Other " European "countries that are not members of the EU have working relationships with EASA.. It does not make any financial sense to re-write the FTLS etc etc, they took years to implement and will take years to change and I doubt the CAA has any stomach for this level of admin when it makes no practical sense...The question of pilot recruitment and language is another issue, why would the French and Germans require EASA english language proficiency!

I suppose the question tghen becomes what impact Brexit have on our influence as a nation over EASA. Cabotage, crew duty, passenger rights... all will be determined if we take this model with no say or sway from the UK. With as Germans and French in control, I can’t see them cutting us deals that will be in our and not their favour.

For example my understanding is EASA FTLs are due their review to see if they need changing this year. I bet we don’t get as much as a crumb at the dinner table when it comes to making hard and fast decisions as to the long term shape and structure.

[macdo]

60% or 40%, it doesn't matter. The point is that the ability to act beyond being an administrator has been diminished.

[BEagle]

From the CAA website:
In response to the FT's article on 19 March ('MPs warn of Brexit damage to UK aerospace'), Andrew Haines said:

“Both the Government and the CAA have been clear that our collective preference is to remain a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) once the UK formerly withdraws from the European Union. The international nature of aviation regulation has improved safety outcomes for passengers, and it is important we retain as much influence as possible in this global system.

In a speech I gave in September 2017, I was clear that I believe the UK should not be planning for a new independent aviation safety system. If continued membership of EASA is unachievable, we should adopt the existing EASA regulatory system, rather than developing a new framework from scratch. This option is available to any third-party country, and is one that, I believe, would provide clarity and certainty for the aviation industry.”


Quite so - better the devil you know!

Returning to a pre-EASA system would inevitably require more people to be employed by the CAA, which is now far smaller than it was 10 years ago. The employment of extra staff would inevitably mean higher costs; as the CAA is not directly funded by HMG, such costs would be met from higher fees for the end user - i.e. industry.

But there are 'Brexit means brexit' political voices such as Gove, Johnson, Fox and Shapps who might not understand the implications of leaving EASA, if their current track record is anything to go by....

[ATC Watcher]

Plus I cannot see large UK based airlines operating mostly in or even inside the EU ( e.g Easyjet) wanting to operate under 2 sets of rules in the future.

[ExXB]

English is one of the official ICAO languages. I suspect there are at least a handful of the other 27, besides FR/DE, that would like to maintain English as an EASA language. Ireland, Malta, Cyprus. The Scandinavians, Finland. Iceland and Benelux as well would likely wish to maintain the status quo.

[Avenger]

Even Turkey is trying to model their FTLs on EASA regulations, probably as they feel this gives the warm and cosy vibes to potential Ex Pats, they even insist of ELP levels, quite the contrast to the Germans and French whom would rather we put the language in a pipe and smoke it!

[DirtyProp]

I think Turkey follows EASA rules to strenghten their case about joining the EU, but of course I could be wrong about that.

Regarding English I don't think it will be dropped, at least not any time soon.
Maybe EASA could instead start dropping those silly measuring units which are a source of great confusion and start using the metric system only.
That would certainly be a welcome improvement....

[ATC Watcher]

Maybe EASA could instead start dropping those silly measuring units which are a source of great confusion and start using the metric system only.

:E. ! Good one !

[ShotOne]

Why should remaining in EASA be "rainbow flying unicorn territory "?? Several non-EU nations have been members for decades. We are already in full compliance with all EASA regulations and happy to keep doing so. Clearly there'll have to be some system for that. This is turning into another classic remoan thread.

[polax52]

Getting back to the original question, why would Brexit effect the working relationship with EASA? Other " European "countries that are not members of the EU have working relationships with EASA.. It does not make any financial sense to re-write the FTLS etc etc, they took years to implement and will take years to change and I doubt the CAA has any stomach for this level of admin when it makes no practical sense...The question of pilot recruitment and language is another issue, why would the French and Germans require EASA english language proficiency!

You're missing the point. It is a Brexit red line that the ECJ will have no judicial say over anything British. EASA use the ECJ. For British airlines to continue operating in Europe post December 2020 either Britain has to capitulate or Europe has to Capitulate. If Europe capitulates then it's the cake and eat it scenario.

I understand that at some point in the future bi-lateral agreements will be negotiated but we don't know how restrictive that will be. Certainly there will be a campaign by Lufthansa and Air France to prevent a good deal for British Airlines.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I am looking forward to seeing what will happen. :E
If I catch correctly, most of British people believe that they could exercise all privileges in club without paying admission.
Please enlightened us how you will achieve:
-Unrestricted market access
-no regulation issues( i.e use all current regulation with open possibility to take part in creating new ones
-mutual recognitions of licences
- Open labour market
.....
Without settling down final authority for disputes and pay adequate fees.

How????

[polax52]

I am looking forward to seeing what will happen. :E
If I catch correctly, most of British people believe that they could exercise all privileges in club without paying admission.
Please enlightened us how you will achieve:
-Unrestricted market access
-no regulation issues( i.e use all current regulation with open possibility to take part in creating new ones
-mutual recognitions of licences
- Open labour market
.....
Without settling down final authority for disputes and pay adequate fees.

How????

It's obvious, Boris said it "we'll have our cake and eat it".:confused:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Why should remaining in EASA be "rainbow flying unicorn territory "??
Because I thought that any disputes over EASA would at the end of the day, all else having failed, be decided by the ECJ, which is one of our red lines? So no ECJ means no EASA?

[Global_Global]

Cap 371 was based on decades of research and scientific study that the CAA listened to and then adapted the rules. I don’t think EASA listen to anybody apart from the airlines. They exemplify everything that is wrong with the EU. Haha shows that you have no clue... The Rulemaking Work Groups of industry professionals (including your beloved CAA!) make the initial rules, the NPA process allows all parties and stakeholders to respond instead of a single stupid UK CAA guy with his pet project that pushes his own ideas through, the need to have scientific data and consensus... All the things that the OLD CAA didn't have! Actually the new CAA guys and girls are well regarded in Cologne as they appreciate that it is a team effort.

It is the OLD CAA guys that seem to prefer personal "observations" over scientific data: we always did it like that so hence it is good....

Are they there yet? Nope, will they ever be there? Well there is moaning about any authority so I don't expect miracles but they are at least trying!

EASA showcases everything that Europe CAN do if we work together and give it time!

[tubby linton]

Haha shows that you have no clue... The Rulemaking Work Groups of industry professionals (including your beloved CAA!) make the initial rules, the NPA process allows all parties and stakeholders to respond instead of a single stupid UK CAA guy with his pet project that pushes his own ideas through, the need to have scientific data and consensus... All the things that the OLD CAA didn't have! Actually the new CAA guys and girls are well regarded in Cologne as they appreciate that it is a team effort.

It is the OLD CAA guys that seem to prefer personal "observations" over scientific data: we always did it like that so hence it is good....

Are they there yet? Nope, will they ever be there? Well there is moaning about any authority so I don't expect miracles but they are at least trying!

EASA showcases everything that Europe CAN do if we work together and give it time!
I will send your positivity about Easa FTL to some academics I know who think the scheme is fundamentally flawed and dangerous. I need to find a joke for them for April the 1st.

[DunePrune]

I started this thread because I was wondering whether my UK issued EASA valid for life ATPL would remain so.


Any thoughts?

[EGPFlyer]

I started this thread because I was wondering whether my UK issued EASA valid for life ATPL would remain so.


Any thoughts?

Don’t see why not... you don’t have to be resident in, or a citizen of an EASA country to have an EASA licence. The question may should be, will you need a separate UK one?

[hunterboy]

Am I reading some of the posters correctly? They believe the EASA FTL’s are an improvement on CAP 371? They obviously don’t fly 85+ hour CAPs every month. They may work for a machine in terms of “ duty cycles”, but for a human being they are awful.

[Trim Stab]

The first part is against EU rules and is not correct , the second sounds like corruption , and is punishable by law so I doubt seriously the statement of your " French F/0"
What is true is that you have to speak fluently French as in France , the basic regulations are in French and the spoken language inside AF is French. ( the same applies in some other EU countries , like Spain for instance)


That statement is most definitely not true. It would be illegal under EU law. You do, however, have to have a very high proficiency in French language to pass the entry exams. I know of French nationals who have failed the French exam...

There are some non-French AF pilots, but not many.

[BizJetJock]

I believe that the point about the ECJ jurisdiction has already been covered by several policy statements from the government, and it seems they are taking a pretty practical approach.
The ECJ may be the final arbiter within EASA or any other agency, but since we would always, as a non-EU country, have the option of withdrawing from EASA they therefore don't have final say over the UK. Thus the "red line" has not been crossed.

[polax52]

I believe that the point about the ECJ jurisdiction has already been covered by several policy statements from the government, and it seems they are taking a pretty practical approach.
The ECJ may be the final arbiter within EASA or any other agency, but since we would always, as a non-EU country, have the option of withdrawing from EASA they therefore don't have final say over the UK. Thus the "red line" has not been crossed.

Yes you're right, there's been a shift from "Red lines" to "Negotiable demands".

[Global_Global]

I will send your positivity about Easa FTL to some academics I know who think the scheme is fundamentally flawed and dangerous. I need to find a joke for them for April the 1stPlease let the people at the DLR in Germany, NLR in the Netherlands and ENAC in France among others share your "experience" as they are apparently not academic enough for your pals at the al knowing CAA...

The good thing about the EASA process for UK CAA in the last few years was actually that they got of their "we know all as we are the CAA" high horse and had to prove a lot of their subjective thoughts to their European counter parts... Now that was a painful process for all authorities including yours but the result is an agency build on competency rather than on "we have done it always like that"

Perfect? No.. Better than the old CAA? Yes!!

[tubby linton]

Global global, if your friends were academic enough we wouldn’t have the disaster of EASA FTL as they would have seen the fundamental flaws.The ECA quote that a number of EU states didn’t even have a set of FTL regulations until recently, the UK CAA having led the way in this field for decades.
A lot of clever people wanted to discuss the fatigue problems of EASA FTL
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/wake-up-call-for-pilot-fatigue/
Isn’t it strange to you that a country that had a fatal accident caused by fatigue is going in the opposite direction to your beloved EASA. ?

[ATC Watcher]

Trim Stab : That statement is most definitely not true. It would be illegal under EU law.
What would be illegal under EU ?
Do you mean the French regulations , i.e legal system , to be only in French ? I am afraid it is , and by law ( Loi Toubon ) and btw all the internal communication within the airline is only in French.
Same in Spain , I was recently part of a group having a conversation with the CEO of Vueling who tried unsuccessfully to have English as the legal language in his airline, but failed as any company registered in Spain, must use Spanish as its internal company language also by law.

[Out Of Trim]

What is the French for stall again?

stalle stalle stalle

J'ai un peu de mal à comprendre. :confused:

[FiveGirlKit]

I started this thread because I was wondering whether my UK issued EASA valid for life ATPL would remain so.


Any thoughts?



I see it like this: unless there is an aviation deal of some sort to keep the UK in the EASA system, all certificates/approvals/licenses issued by the UK CAA will loose mutual recognition in the EASA system on the day of BREXIT.


Why? Because as soon as a State leaves a controlled system, it can not be controlled and thus could/may/will deviate from the controlled system by applying its own interpretation of the rules/own standards/own oversight methods. Without a deal on aviation, the control of that State has gone and so the certificates issued by that State can only be derecognised by the controlled system - aka, UK issued licenses will not be considered approved in the EASA system.


Without a deal, and if you want to use your license in EASA-land (working for an EU operator), probably the way forward is to get a license from an EASA State.


Let's hope for a deal on aviation....

[DunePrune]

If the UK CAA was the initial issuer of the EASA license, it would hopefully be prepared to issue a UK one in it's place.

[DunePrune]

Or if it was not, observe the present state of reciprocity to do the same prior to BREXIT.

[ATC Watcher]

BUT : if you have one , you can always keep it providing you do your renewals with EASA approved Instructors/ Examiners I suppose. Same as if you have an FAA licence today.
The nationality of the licence holder has nothing to do with the country of issue. .

[1066]

EASA FTLs
When these were under consideration by the EASA they were tasked, I’m guessing by the European Commission, with examining the available scientific data. The most recent scientific data had been produced by NASA, which long after the Bader Committee, came to very similar conclusions and the NASA conclusions were used to amend the FAA FTLs.
I am not aware that the NASA work was ever considered by EASA. If it was considered it seems to have been ignored when the EASA FTLs were proposed.,
When these new regulations came before the European Parliament for their approval, the European Parliament aviation sub committee recommended that the European Parliament should not approve these proposed FTLs but the European Parliament voted in favour. Why? What was the point of having a specialist committee examine the proposed FTLs and then ignore their recommendation!
I wrote to all my MEPs. Many of those that bothered to reply agreed that the proposals were wrong but they had to vote in favour because they had to vote with the block of MEPs with whom they were aligned.
The CAA were not perfect but neither was the EASA and the European Parliament in the production of these FTLs.
1066

[wiggy]

the European Parliament aviation sub committee recommended that the European Parliament should not approve these proposed FTLs but the European Parliament voted in favour. Why? What was the point of having a specialist committee examine the proposed FTLs and then ignore their recommendation!

According to some of those involved a lot of it was down to who had the greater lobbying power ... the workforce unions or the airlines.....

[ExXB]

the European Parliament aviation sub committee recommended that the European Parliament should not approve these proposed FTLs but the European Parliament voted in favour. Why? What was the point of having a specialist committee examine the proposed FTLs and then ignore their recommendation!I would be more concerned if the Parliament simply rubber stamped recommendations of committees and sub-committees. As irritating as this can be to outside observers, it is normal parliamentary procedure.

[Flocks]

Let s be honnest, to have done it (and I m young), now when I see an advert stating "roster : I. Accordance with European FTL"
I just don't took further.

I know it was better for some countries in Europe and it is still better then some Asiatic countries or other ... But it is still ****.

It is why, all "good" airline have a schedule agreement more restrictif than FTL.

It is the case in my airline

[BARKINGMAD]

Even if Maybot, Davis, Fox, Johnson et al manage to wrangle a deal whereby the UK is allowed to set it's own FTLs, do you all really believe for 1 minute that the UK airline bosses would roll over and say "good, back to CAP371!"? It matters little what laws our legislators pass, proof is the current gender pay difference machinations over a law passed decades ago but ignored by companies subject to UK law.

EASA has been a boon to the companies' rostering practices, sweating more work out of the assets and allowing less rest thereby making the profit figures look good. They are NOT going to accept from the CAA (who they?) nor the UK Parliament, a move back to more employee friendly practices so please wake up, smell the coffee and realise you're now in a worse place than before EASA reared it's Greek Mythology Hydra-like head.

Drifting sideways, if EU stops UK flying over/into their airspace, what proposals do they have when UK airspace is closed off to the newly found "enemy" in retaliation? A scan of FR24 any morning/evening will demonstrate the problem nicely when direct routes from/to North Atlantic airspace and EU no longer exist. Of course what remains of the century-old RAF will have difficulty in finding Typhoons & Tankers to police the patch, but that's for another thread.

Regarding the OP's concerns, I would have thought there are so many of "their" pilot flying for "us" and vice versa that the entire Western European aviation scene would collapse into chaos and stagnation. Once again, BIG CORP, who really decide what happens and instructs most governments as to what laws to draft and pass, will step in and intervene to ensure their financial interests are as undamaged as possible.

Those pesky peasants who buy and use their products and services should never have been allowed this semblance of democracy, it just gets in the way of smooth business expansion. :(

[Elephant and Castle]

No one is saying that UK aircraft would not be able to overfly European airspace. What they are saying is that UK aircraft will not be able to do domestic EU traffic or Eu-rest of the world traffic. Similarly EU airlines will not be able to do UK domestic traffic. Additionally all EU airlines need to be owned AND controlled by Eu nationals (easyjet? IAG?...) and Uk airlines will need to be UK owned AND controlled to take part in a new UK/US bilateral agreement (BA? Virgin?....)

[VinRouge]

cant think of many airlines with a greater than 50% uk market share these days, Jet2?Thompson, owned by ze germans. City Flyer, ba, owned by IAG. vs mainly owned by delta although air france also have a big bite.

Jet 2 and flybe, stobart, are possibly the only ones i can think of.

[Bowmore]

EASA has member states like Croatia, Liechtenstein, Iceland, Switzerland and Norway. None of them is member of EU. Just saying.

[GKOC41]

Going back to CAP371 please no. What about the factoring of FDP for 2 crew sectors over 7 hours (let's bring back flight engineers). O and the acclimatisation rules where you immediately non acclimatise if over 3 hours TZ when the science in EASA says you gradually adapt. And the early / late / night rules which cause poor rostering patterns when the science says its better to stay in the pattern.
And a crew reporting at 0550LT on CAP371 3 sectors get a 09:30 allowable FDP whereas EASA 12.15 (which was similar to Sub Part Q which was in Europe for god knows how long so all Euro Airlines crews managed before)
And then let's remember EASA has FRMS which then obliges crew members to look at commuting that area which under CAP371 wasn't considered as the last edition was what 2004?
I'm sure the Directors at Thomson / Thomas Cook / DHL Air would love to go back to CAP371 so they could be (safely) out performed by their Euro counterparts.

Yep for sure EASA FTL could do with a few tweaks but please not CAP371 - Douglas Bader is long gone

[DaveReidUK]

EASA has member states like Croatia, Liechtenstein, Iceland, Switzerland and Norway.

No, it doesn't.

Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are, in EASA-speak, three of the 34 "Countries with whom EASA has a Working Arrangement". That will likely be the destiny of the UK.

There are no references at all to Croatia or Liechtenstein on the EASA website.

Countries with whom EASA has a Working Arrangement (https://www.easa.europa.eu/country-category/countries-whom-easa-has-working-arrangement)

[4468]

And a crew reporting at 0550LT on CAP371 3 sectors get a 09:30 allowable FDP whereas EASA 12.15 (which was similar to Sub Part Q which was in Europe for god knows how long so all Euro Airlines crews managed before)
Just a point of information.

As you move eastwards, local time becomes earlier on your body clock. That’s particularly significant for those states on the most western limits of EASA land. Here’s an example:

There is a BA flight leaving HEL at 0745LT every morning. It’s crew arrived in their hotel some time the night before. Their duty period officially started one hour before departure, at 0645LT. However, they are picked up at 0620LT. In order to achieve that, they will wake at around 0550LT. (If they’ve been able to sleep?)

However, HEL is UK time + 2 hours. So 0550LT is actually 0350 on their body clock. If they ‘only’ fly 3 sectors, they can officially still be on duty 12:30 after their on duty time!

So they woke at 0350 on their body clock, at the worst possible time to be awake, and they can still be on duty at 1715 on their body clock. Having flown in to LHR, then who knows, maybe ATH and back. Even in the depths of winter!

That to me looks very stupid! CAP 371 looks far more sensible, when allowing for the difference between LT and body clock time!

HEL is not the only place this happens, and of course LT could actually be even further away from body clock time, and still not be considered!!

All perfectly legal under EASA.

[rudestuff]

No, it doesn't.

Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are, in EASA-speak, three of the 34 "Countries with whom EASA has a Working Arrangement". That will likely be the destiny of the UK.

There are no references at all to Croatia or Liechtenstein on the EASA website.

Countries with whom EASA has a Working Arrangement (https://www.easa.europa.eu/country-category/countries-whom-easa-has-working-arrangement)

The link you provided is for the EASA website - which clearly lists all of the above mentioned countries as members.

[Sepp]

As rudestuff says, this page:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/international-cooperation/easa-by-country

shows the relationship(s) EASA has with each state, and lists Iceland, Switzerland, Norway, Croatia and Liechtenstein as Member countries.

[RexBanner]

do you all really believe for 1 minute that the UK airline bosses would roll over and say "good, back to CAP371!"....EASA has been a boon to the companies' rostering practices, sweating more work out of the assets and allowing less rest

Not true on Long Haul I’m afraid where the inability for the company to roster duties back to back and requirement for a set number of local nights” prior to commencing another duty has led to a greater manpower requirement not a lesser one.

[ExXB]

There are no references at all to Croatia or Liechtenstein on the EASA website.Liechtenstein doesn’t have an airport. The Swiss look after the few helicopters that fly there.

[IB737ZG]

Sorry but Croatia is EU member from 2013

[stoneangel]

Air France are recruiting 200 pilots but it is a pre-requisite that you have to be a french national to apply and if you don’t have a relative already working there you will not be offered a job- as told to me by my French co-pilot.
There really is no hope when this level of nepotism and nationalism is standard at a flag carrier.

wrong
but eh you're funny : to work at BA you need to get a level 6 in english. Who can apply there except british ?
no need to be french, many belgians fly at AF. Just need to speak french.

a french...