Is the grass really greener? Perspectives from an escapee.

[CX ex]

After spending nearly 13 years at CX, I can say without hesitation that leaving has been the best thing I have ever done. I would consider myself someone who had it relatively good at CX with regards to my overall experience and "success" with the company. I say "success" with the utmost disdain towards the twisted and dysfunctional ways that company has. All in all I am grateful for my experience there as it has afforded me opportunities that would have likely not been realized considering the state of the industry when I joined. However, it is much easier for me to say now that I am no longer a part of that world.

To those on the fence about leaving

The money is not worth it. Ive taken an enormous pay cut on an already strained budget, but I made it work and its been the best thing for the long term. Your possessions are possessing you!
The sleep IS worth it. There is no amount of money that will make up for the loss of sleep and its associated problems. NTM, the world is much better looking in the daylight (but not some of the hosties)
Flying is FUN again and not FEARED. Big brother is watching yes, but he's not going to take my pay, seat or career because the speed got a bit high.
Control of your life. I cannot describe what a difference this will make.

For those who are thinking about joining.

There is nothing I can say that Trafalgar has not said. Read his posts over, and over again. And then read them some more. There are a few others who also post the utter truth. Be warned.

Like I said, I had it very good. Cat A'd, B scale, offered a WB command. AND I STILL LEFT!!

To the lifers at CX who do the right thing; good luck to you and I hate what the despicable management has done to your careers.

To those who have undermined the good guys; may you rot with the management.

[Adam GoodJob]

Good info and very true.

[Shep69]

Thank you for posting what you did.

'Your possessions are possessing you'

I think that very good and sage advice. For me the key has always been are you happy and grateful at what you are doing and how are you spending your time--which to me is the most precious resource in life. I think people sometimes feel trapped or they are stuck (which isn't true) and I'm glad your new career is working out well.

[Basil]

Looking back to the turn of the century when I was there, very fair comment.
TF I didn't spend my whole civil career there.

[Trafalgar]

CX ex. Thank you for a succinct description of the 'bigger picture'. I have spent my whole career here, and it has turned into the biggest regret of my life. It's hard to accept that a company I have devoted my entire professional career to does not value me, lies to me, threatens me, abuses me through rostering, cheats me with staff travel, steals from me with unpaid bonuses and inadequate pay raises and generally wouldn't care if I was hit by a bus tomorrow. The only satisfaction I get is in the effort I expend in warning the more junior pilots here, or the ones considering coming that there are much better and happier career choices. CX is toxic and they do not deserve the aircrew they have. The worst management in the modern airline business. Twenty plus years of this nonsense has given me the right to speak out. Hopefully, most who read my words will find a happier outcome.

[what do you know]

Today is a sad day for me as I have responded to a job offer. I am one of the 2007 hire and yes Cat A. 11 years in CX and I never thought I was going to leave. Management must be very happy as a lot of senior FO's are looking elsewhere.
Just like CX ex I will make it work financially. I know I will enjoy flying again. All the best chaps.

[Blue Bag Bitch]

Dear South African Airways pilots: please read this.

[stevieboy330]

I left last year after more than 10,
less money,
less P fund,
More tax
No housing,
No education,
No Command.
NO REGRETS, AT ALL, NOT ONE !
I only wish I could have left sooner. & I was B scale on full housing !
The whole place is TOXIC

[quadspeed]

I've left and not looked back.

It was a hard decision to make, all the time I kept hoping things would improve. Throwing it all away and starting again was not a easy.

Once the decision was made and I left this institution behind, a world of frustration, paranoia, anger and resentment was lifted from me.

Blue skies, a family home, an employer who sees me and a natural sleep cycle all welcomed me on the other side of the door.

The best decision I ever made. To correct the worst.

[22N114E]

Perspectives from another escapee.

I resigned twice during my time with CX. The first was from the Check & Training Dept, the other from the company.

Putting pen to paper will most likely do two things for you.

Firstly, you will realise that for the first time in your CX experience, you will have taken control of your destiny. The sense of relief is truly enormous, and will bring a smile to your face.

Secondly, time will not pass quickly enough until your last day.

I have not looked back. The feeling of wellbeing continues to this day, four years on.

[Kitsune]

Having quit some time ago I can back up 22N’s post wholeheartedly: The feeling of utter relief on wheels up out of CLK is hard to put into words. Best thing I ever did in aviation, second best thing was when I joined CX, so proud to have joined what I then considered as one of, if not the best airline in the world...

[zxcfg21]

I'm in the midst of my preparation for signing up for the cadet program but after reading these posts, it's made me think again. What's the situation over on KA? Are they the same in how they treat their staff and contract details?

[stilton]

No expert on Cx, although I do have friends
and family members that have worked for them
in the past and present


I was always curious regarding the system of placing
pilots in ‘categories’ based on perceived ability ?


No other airline I know does this and I wonder
how fairly this has been applied over the years



It seems custom built for abuse if management
can act on bias by limiting career progression

[Trafalgar]

Stilton, everything in this place is custom built for abuse by management.

[Flex88]

Trafalgar is exactly correct, right down to the CX cafeteria in the HQ to the coffee and vending machines..

[DropKnee]

stilton

Yes it is abused. But we have a limp d%#k pilot group who allows itself to be abused.
That is also why they hate bases. This is just a huge lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Arctic Ace]

CX ex. Thank you for a succinct description of the 'bigger picture'. I have spent my whole career here, and it has turned into the biggest regret of my life. It's hard to accept that a company I have devoted my entire professional career to does not value me, lies to me, threatens me, abuses me through rostering, cheats me with staff travel, steals from me with unpaid bonuses and inadequate pay raises and generally wouldn't care if I was hit by a bus tomorrow. The only satisfaction I get is in the effort I expend in warning the more junior pilots here, or the ones considering coming that there are much better and happier career choices. CX is toxic and they do not deserve the aircrew they have. The worst management in the modern airline business. Twenty plus years of this nonsense has given me the right to speak out. Hopefully, most who read my words will find a happier outcome.

I left several years ago after a many years there.
It was and still remains a sad excuse for an airline

[Klimax]

Left CX on the 5th Jan 2009. 4.5 years after joining. We were 6 Sandwich Officers in Adelaide class. 2 left within the first two years, 2 of us left slightly later. Two are still with the company. I still have friends there and nobody is truly happy and never were. It's just an existence... However Ladies and Gents, just know that all of a sudden you'll (hopefully) turn 60 and retire and then it's all to late to change. You got to make the right decisions while you can - and don't ever be afraid of letting go of Cathay! It's NOT a great place to be - and for anyone who once had the love for flying - go!

[Vtwin]

stilton

CX has taken a department that usually serves a simple yet vitally important utilitarian role at most normal airlines and has managed to weaponize and politicize it. At CX "training" is rarely training at all, as enough that can't fly here train, and those that can't train, check. In this regard it is truly a 'you are up there because we are down here airline.' This integral function normally intended for your benefit elsewhere, is often used for their own nefarious reasons ranging from the desperate need for ego enhancement to retribution. There are and have been many exceptions, those that are okay with themselves and want you to succeed, but a disproportionate amount of ready and willing gold plated arses as compared to most companies have always inhabited this department at CX. The damage and destruction done to many careers over the years for frivolous and petty reasons could fill a book. Their antics are one of the most commonly discussed topics enroute.

[Ghost_Rider737]

Don't worry folks, I don't think any pilots from SAA will be joining CX. Extremely low turn out at the road show

[Captain Dart]

Thanks GR, I’m not surprised; far better options out there for experienced crew.

CX will have to look for pilots at the bottom of the barrel again.

[Flex88]

Whaaaaat ??

I thought they were getting the pick of the crop from the Ballerina school.
I can just hear the singing in the cockpit "Hold me Closer Tiny Dancer"

Tic Toc, Tic Toc....

[TheGreenDragon]

Don't worry folks, I don't think any pilots from SAA will be joining CX. Extremely low turn out at the road show

Nope, 'cos the majority were at the Cathay Dragon interviews.
Over 60 interviewed, thats what I hear from a certain KA People Manager in a slip of the tongue, after a few drinks of cx hospitality :D

[mngmt mole]

Just love the letter to the SO’s from PC. A rather obvious dissembling that attempts to convince the SO’s that they won’t be spending up to 6 years in that position. Just look at the numbers quoted: JFO upgrades this year – 10. JFO upgrades next year – 208. Who can possibly believe that? There is almost no chance of them increasing upgrades from 10-208 in just a year, as not only are they not getting new trainers, many of the current ones are resigning month on month. The company is desperate to keep people from resigning, but has managed to get the company to a place where there is no hope of a proper career for anyone who stays (fewer and fewer such people by the month). Note: they have to admit 10 this year as it is easily verifiable. For next year, and any year thereafter, they can make up whatever number they believe will keep people happy. (note: PC states that his numbers are dependent on the training ban being removed, highly unlikely based on the company's intransigence).

The letter goes on to emphasise the point that they can’t get much done with the Training Ban. Thanks PC for confirming that our strategy is having a big effect. The pilots of the airline realize that there can be NO softening of the ban until there have been dramatic improvements to our pay and conditions. We are all committed to waiting this out until this company starts treating ALL it's pilots with respect, and institutes major improvements to our conditions.

The discussion also speaks in detail about DEFO’s, and the fact that they are having trouble getting people to attend interviews, more less actually accept the job. The reason for that is that the word is out. The Internet has allowed the truth of CX’s appalling treatment of its pilots to be disseminated worldwide. Not only has that treatment caused the “Great Exodus” to begin, but it has also prevented many other pilots from causing themselves and their families’ unnecessary and avoidable grief by making the mistake of joining. Even the few DEFO’s that have joined are already making plans to leave (ask me how I know!).

PC, you say there will be a “steady reduction in time to upgrade”, when it is obviously apparent that with the increase in 2 SO flights, DEFO’s, the enhancement of the training ban and the company actually cutting flights and the number of aircraft (getting rid of 10 777ER’s), there will actually be an increase in time as SO for many years to come. A simple look at the seniority numbers show that for most of the SO’s who foolishly stay, they will cripple their careers with years as a SO without being able to log hours, or improving their skills by actually flying an aircraft.

SO's, CX is using you as “cannon fodder” to put warm bodies in the seats so that the flights can operate legally. They don’t care about you, your careers, your families needs or your long-term best interests. They only care about you not resigning, and will do or say anything to facilitate that for as long as they can.

Since 2010, CX has decided that the career aspirations of their pilots don’t matter. They seem to think you will willingly live in HK in a shoebox (overpriced, so you waste money on that instead of paying for a home back in your own country), with wife and kids. They care not that you can barely afford to educate those same children, that you will have a completely inadequate retirement, pathetic travel benefits, and then, when you retire, they will demonstrate contempt and disdain for all your years of effort. Don’t make the mistake of crippling your true career potential. CX has already proved they are not worthy of your commitment.

[Numero Crunchero]

It's interesting that there is no mention in the letter of resolving the training ban....only that it will be mitigated. That doesn't suggest the author/company is actually interested in resolving the issues!

I believe your assertions on upgrade rate are correct. However PC is correct on one statement - yes time to upgrade will steadily reduce from the current rate. But that's because the current rate is 10 per year - so if we do 11 next year, that is a reduction from 50 years to upgrade to 45 - then if it is 12 in 2020 that will further reduce from 45 years to just over 40years. :O

[Babbalito]

http://m.scmp.com/property/hong-kong-china/article/2142488/how-small-can-hong-kongs-apartments-be-builder-aiming?amp=1

Not that you will be able to afford it!

[arse]

It's interesting that there is no mention in the letter of resolving the training ban....only that it will be MITIGATED. That doesn't suggest the author/company is actually interested in resolving the issues!

That word certainly did stand out.

It would also be worth noting that any resolution to the TB, would surely see our company put measures in place to try and prevent that tool from ever being effectively used again. Not sure what that would be? Maybe over-staffing the T & C positions and only paying "train by the hour"? I'd like to see the reaction to that proposal. If the issues are eventually resolved and the TB lifted, it better be worth giving up the main leverage the pilots have.

[Buttie Box]

As an ex CX guy, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth. I was terminated 17 days before my 10th anniversary with the airline. My health started to give out 2 years before and after several failed attempts at returns to work, it wasn't happening. I understand CX's decision and have no objections to their reason.

Shortly after I joined CX from the military, 49 pilots were fired to scare the rest of us in to line. Having worked so hard to fly the aircraft of my dreams and one of the best airlines in the world, I didn't realise how much it had affected me. The fear of loss stayed with me for many years.

Around 5 years into my CX career, I regained my UK ATPL and it was at this point that I should have left. Flight deck chat was invariably about Ts and Cs and who had left to fly for whom. There was an excitement around the latter as if a fellow colleague had escaped from a prison camp.

As a based FO doing 3 HK trips a month, the commute was difficult at times and my sleep began to suffer. We gave up 5-4-3. I began having "micro days" where I'd sleep for 2 hours then be awake for 6.

I clung on, ignoring my health, and passed command assessment on my second attempt. The first was with a dinosaur BM who grilled me for 90 minutes on the obsolete Vol 4 - we'd moved on to FCOMs - with encouraging phrases like, "You've just killed 400 people." I had a chat with the fleet head of training who replied, "We really must find out what goes in in these assessments." We could debate the "training" system at length.

Finally, my health gave out and I left aviation.

Friends, for what it's worth, my opinion was and is that CX is gradually being turned into a local airline in preparation for 2047. There's no longer as much of a requirement for ex-pats as there used to be and the erosion of Ts & Cs will continue. At the risk of being branded a racist, the SE Asian mentality is not compatible with some other cultures. Yes, you can operate within it but HK is all about making money. Do not and do not think you can interfere with the process. From random firings through failing SOs' upgrades to illegal basing operations, the proof is there.

I'm in the process of returning to aviation but the journey is already around 28 months and difficult at times. Monetarily, I've "lost" over £1M in earnings but I don't give it a minute's thought. I sleep, I dream and still love that point where someone says "rotate" and we slip the surly bonds once more.

New pilots at the flying club will invariably engage me in a what-should-I-do conversation and my reply to each of them is the same: follow your dreams. If you want to fly short or long haul, it's up to you. I had always wanted to fly 747s and I did it: tick VG.

I'm now at several crossroads at the same time in my life and feel rather like Tom Hank's Fed-Ex guy at the end of the film. My only regret is that I didn't leave CX sooner.

[wongsuzie]

'Preparing for 2047'.This is something at the back of my mind too.

As an aside all property leases will revert to China at 2047.Think about that.

[Private jet]

HK is all about making money.
Of course it is. It's always been a "pirate's play den" from day 1. Dreadful place, if you go to work there you deserve all you get. The thing is that the "pirates" don't need to charm the pilots anymore. Supply outstrips demand and will continue to do so because people have realised that flying an aircraft is not mega difficult & better than working in an office, a factory or planting a paddy field. The old timers got lucky, right place right time, but that was then.We all live in our own era and you'll never change it. Sorry to sound so pessimistic but I like to tell it how it is.

[mngmt mole]

Private Jet. ..."supply outstrips demand"... hahaha, what planet are you on? You obviously haven't seen the sudden and accelerating deterioration of major airlines pilot staffing. Only in the world of a "wannabe" could someone make such an ill-informed statement in the present day. And from someone who is an insider, "that is the way it is".

[Flex88]

Yup, it's becoming the same everywhere. Talking to those I know, signing bonuses are beginning to be discussed in the shadows for now however not for long. US counterparts already paying...

How the high-flying job of a pilot lost its glamour | CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-shortage-super-t-atac-wellington-waterloo-1.4471354)

[Private jet]

Only in the world of a "wannabe" could someone make such an ill-informed statement in the present day. And from someone who is an insider, "that is the way it is".

With respect, you're really barking up the wrong tree there sunshine.
As long as any employer can put one bum on one vacated seat then there will never be a shortage, thats what I was alluding to in my rather non eloquent way.
I guess the only other point I thought I would make is that those who migrate wherever in the world to fulfill their career ambitions can't really complain about the system they willfully accept and continue to accept. If you're not happy, go somewhere where you will be happier. I'm really not sure what you guys have to negotiate with? If you think a bunch of Caucasians are going to outsmart the Chinese in their own back yard then you're hopelessly optimistic at best. Anyway, I really have no vested interest in your little Asian bunfight so I'm sorry I even bothered to comment. I'll stick to my own patch in future. All the best.

[cxorcist]

Comments like these highlight just how stupid many pilots are and why we have such an uphill battle against Management. We have to fight these morons as well as the actual enemy.

Stick to your private jet please. We don’t need more of you in our profession.

[Apple Tree Yard]

KC's title is "Talent Acquisition Manager" ! It's crap like that that convinces me that this company has no future.

[AQIS Boigu]

FYI

Mrs Kelly Crawford left CX is now with Qantas recruitment.

What does that tell you?

[mngmt mole]

It tells me Qantas is going to streamline the hiring of CX pilots

[Flex88]

That sir is called Serendipity :)

[Shutterbug]

FYI Mrs Kelly Crawford left CX is now with Qantas recruitment. What does that tell you?

And Kelly's replacement has a background in hotels and did a stint at Emirates. What does that tell you? Emirates hired a bell boy recruiter to scout pilots, but it must have worked for her, because now she's recruiting bell boys for CX cockpits.

You can only wish you were flying with ballerinas. You'll be flying with bell boys shortly. Be sure to leave a tip at the end of your flight.

[Ahaganf15]

I personally know several former CX'ers now working at FedEx and Delta. Reach out to them if you know them about the current state of hiring in the US. If you are eligible for employment there, my experience has been your flying skills and work ethic honed at CX will be welcomed and well respected at US carriers.

I have enjoyed your product as a customer, but seeing the erosion of benefits and respect for the men and women who make it happen is depressing. I trust my family in your hands regularly, and respect the hell out of the effort you guys put into your training and work. I enjoy living here in Hong Kong, but unlike many of you I can leave without a loss of pay or seniority. I feel more like a tourist or long term visitor than a resident, and that makes the 2047 countdown and some of the day to day tribulations easier to take, because I know when it reaches my threshold I am out of here. Whether its the HKR closing the DB marina, another move to silence local politicians, or a new construction like the Lantau metropolis project going in despite the objections of the locals, there is a pattern to why things seem to happen here. It is "**** you--that's why!..." I don't harbor any illusions about the impending loss of civil liberties and the push by China to simply make HK another one of its cities. I have spent enough time in Guangzhou and Shanghai to know that while those cities have their charms, they will never be a place I want to call home.

We all have our own inertia, and I understand why many of you with years here are reluctant to leave. For some of you--its still "home" or "...a solid job...". What I will say is that if I can help any of you network with US carriers or assist in any way, I'm glad to do so. At least in our corner of aviation, things have been looking up and improving the last decade. Nobody wants to start over, but ask your contacts what they are making in year two at FedEx or Delta and at least for some you it might be an option worth considering. I can also say that the US supplemental carriers (Kalitta, Altas, Polar, etc) have been desperate for pilots and while their benefits won't make the elite jobs they are a solid place to go and make the transition.

In full disclosure, I run an interview prep service, primarily focused on US carriers although we've helped people prepare for interviews at CX, Emirates, Virgin, and some other places. That is NOT why I am posting. I'm not here to sell services--I'm here to help you network if it helps. Networking is free.

Again--if anyone wants to chat over a beer on South Lantau or in Central, I'm glad to offer what I can and help you expand your network. The best way to make a change at CX is for some of you to leave. Good luck to all of you....

[CXKA]

I left CX 6 months ago for a LH FO role with my national carrier and it has been the best decision I made. Yes you get a few less days off and money is down but the atmosphere is much more relaxed, training was a breath of fresh air and the routes are fantastic. Had a good time at CX due to the friends I made there but am happy to be out. Best of luck to all
looking to leave and hopefully the AOA can do something about COS18 shambles!

[Dragon Pacific]

Congratulations CXKA. I think the majority of pilots here are rejects from their national airline, Qantas, BA etc who either failed on application or for whom the timing wasn’t right. We were at least consoled by CX being considered a first tier airline where you could hold your head up and say that you had made the grade and were adequately compensated. Many of us have made a few millions to take home in the process.
CoS18 now makes this an employment shelter of last resort with no consolation prize. It is now only good for getting a type rating and a bit of experience then off.

[letsfly75]

After 10+ years I’m escaping. I’ll miss some things but I highly doubt I’ll ever regret it.

[positionalpor]

2 CN’s resigned in the last week, one more to follow shorty. Also 3 FO with 10+ years seniority out in the last 3 weeks. Not sure what the third floor is planning to do about it

[cxorcist]

They’ll do nothing. The poor morale and deteriorating conditions are predominantly from the 9th floor, not the 3rd (exception for MICM which is gross mismanagement). The 3rd floor can only watch while Rome burns.

[Chadflies]

Here is my greener perspective form over here in Canada.. not meant to be a gripe, I truly love flying. I’m trying to compare to see if CX is a better path for me.

My previous job was flying the summer season on a light twin, doing fire mapping and low lever LIDAR work. My working conditions were such that I had no days off and was on the road for 6 months straight. My legal “days off” we’re weather days that we couldn’t fly. My flying days were 14hrs a day everyday that weather permitted, and expected to fly every day that I could. My salary was $2800 a month for the summer, and then laid off for the winter.

Now I’m at a regional carrier, who’s name I will not mention for obvious reasons. I fly 80hrs min a month minimum, average 6 legs a day, and make slightly less. I am scheduled to fly 18 days a month off, unless overtime is available. If I make captain I will make roughly 80k a year.

I’m trying to look objectively here and here’s what I see.. At Cathay I will make substantially more, and fly a lot less days.

Living in a major Canadian city, is not cheap I pay $1600 a month for 800sq ft pad nowhere near the airport I work out of. It’s a 2 hour drive in rush hour for me. Granted Hong Kong is more expensive.. so let’s call the increase in pay as a SO a wash for the cost of living.

I used to do long haul flying for a short time as a flight attendant and know all about the jet lag, and sleep cycle disruption. However, the long days I fly and the short rest in between leaves me just as exhausted. It’s a different kind of tired granted.. but I’m going to call that a wash as well.

Living in Hong Kong vs. Canada.. Canada is a great nation I love my country.. I also love experiencing new countries and parts of the world. It’s part of why I love to fly. The temperature for me in Canada today is -35C.. the warmer days hover around -10 at best. What I call winter, that being snow on the ground and temps below 0C is roughly 7 months long. Summers are epic mind you, they’re just fleetingly short. Living somewhere different, especially on days like today, sounds fantastic.

Looking at it longer term, I’ll upgrade.. make more money.. eventually get a base outside of HK.. (anyone know how long of a wait that currently is?) who knows, Australia sounds like a pretty swell place to live. On top of which I’ll get experience on large Jets that puts me in the market for countless other carriers that are just getting more and more hungry for pilots.

Is there anything I’m missing here? Or should consider? Do you CX guys and gals out there think things will improve in time or get worse?

TT 1200hrs frozen ATPL

[cxorcist]

Well, you’re looking at being an SO with NO stick time for 5 years. You said you love to fly. You’re looking at another 10+ as an FO, so 15+ to captain. Oh, and you will NEVER get a base! Those are meant for senior (expensive) pilots on expat benefits. You’ll be nicely cheap, very poor, and perfectly located in HK for life...

[Chadflies]

Hummm interesting cxorcist, thanks for that. My buddy is interviewing with them next month and was told 2yrs as SO, and bases would be an option after a year or two as an FO

[cxorcist]

Those are utter lies, no other word for them. Recruitment will say anything to get decent pilots to apply. They are very desperate, and it’s only getting worse. Captain upgrade time is currently over 12 years and going up rapidly. JFO upgrades are running at 4 years and also going up. I think CX will probably have no choice but to contract. There are lots of rumors about more leased aircraft being returned, although the Management try to keep a lid on this. Pilot morale is in the toilet, and a new TA was just voted down by nearly 80% of the HKAOA membership. This Company, despite operating in a healthy market, is really struggling. They are on the tail end of losing well over $3B US in fuel hedges in the last 4 years. Now they want their employees to help pay for that. Pilots are not buying, well most of us anyways. You’re better off flying RJs and then getting a real job with AC or Westjet.[/left]

[Frogman1484]

Cxocist is correct...it’s a lie! There have been no bases for almost 10 years. They promised to look at opening the bases again if we accepted the last TA. They were promising 10...yes only 10 captain bases in Australia. I’ve been here for more than 20 years and I have zero chance of getting on a base. You will also not get one in your time at CX. Don’t believe what recruitment is promising you, especially on COS 18, which is a vastly inferior contract compared to the current one.

[unitedabx]

Listen to the advice being given. If your mate attended or is about to attend an interview ask for these basing and time to upgrade promises in writing. Of course you will not get this and more to the point if you/he did then thosespromises would be broken during your training. This company lies and lies and lies then intimidates and bullies. Over the weekend 80% of the unionised pilots voted to reject a new contract. The company which the previous day had promised respect towards the pilot group going forward immediately put out a press release attacking the pilot body. If you like flying get a flying job. CX doesn't offer that.

[Chadflies]

Thanks Unitedabx and Cxorcist,

Sounds quote toxic to work there.. I appreciate the inside viewpoints as outside you get quite the rosy picture.

well I shouldn’t go so far as to say that.. looking at the boards, I can’t find very many positive comments about Cathay.

How is it.. with a global shortage of pilots.. companies still treat a diminishing resource so poorly? One would assume, attracting the dwindling talent available would be top priority. I know some carriers are waking up to this.. but so many aren’t?

Further, why would CX lie about bases out of HK? If they want to attract ppl, wouldn’t it make sense for them to offer those bases? Not only for employee satisfaction, but cost?

If pilots can live outside of HK.. it’s more affordable for them.. and CX wouldn’t have to pay a accommodation stipend.

Bit it I digress.. I must be crazy to think of things in simply logical terms

[Frogman1484]

Chadflies,

For years, they have been telling us it is cheaper to keep everyone in Hong Kong and not on the bases. You just have to do some simple math to figure out that the savings are huge by putting everyone on the base. Last year Jepperson recommended that they put 800 pilots on bases and that it will save them a boatload of cash. The biggest reason they do not want to let the majority of us go and live in our home countries is that they will then have to abide by first world labour laws and by doing that, they will lose control of their crews! Swire, who manages CX, thrive on division and control. They will contest the smallest of cases in court rather than giving something to a staff group for free. A real petty example of this is that the cabin crew had to go to court and fight with them, just so that they could choose to wear long pants rather than skirts during the flight. They also fought the retirement age case in the human's right court in New Zealand, to the cost of thousands of dollars, knowing that they were going to lose. This case would have only benefited about 30 pilots at most, but they fought it. The cabin crew also had to give concessions to them, so that they could extend their retirement age to 60! Where anywhere else in the world, it is illegal to age discriminate. The Paris base closure is another example, but I will not bore you with the details. look if you want to come here, do so, but be aware that you will not be getting a base. You will be earning significantly less than they promised you, as the hourly threshold you have to reach is very high. For an example, on the Airbus, you will have to fly 840 hours per year just to make your basic salary. I've been on the Airbus for 19 years plus and I have never hit that target. At best I have had 780 hours in a year, and I probably only go sick for 5-7 days a year. You will never make a cent in over time even when flying 100 hours a month, as they control the hours and are free to work stack you before or after you leave. Your HKPA, or "housing allowance, will not be sufficient for you to live in a spacious apartment..never. It is not indexed to the housing market, and it goes for years without being increased. When they do increase it, they will expect you to offer something in return in the form of more productivity. In a nutshell, this is what you will be signing up for, not what they promise you at your interview.

[Oasis]

and bases would be an option after a year or two as an FO
That is such horse****, I can’t believe they are telling him that.
They must be so desperate to be lying to that extent.

[bell1st]

I'm not surprised at all at what they are telling the recruits. No one would come if they told the truth!

[cxorcist]

Isn’t that the truth? CX is in shambles.

You should have seen the Jellyfish slink around yesterday. Talk about a fish out of water, looks like he’s about to get sacked. I sure hope he stays. I think he genuinely wants to repair the relationship with the pilots, but that might be impossible given the cannibals he works for on the 9th floor. He’s like a car salesman stuck between his bosses and a determined buyer, not much he can do when neither side will budge. So he’s out hunting for new suckers to join on POS18. I can’t say that I blame him, which is why our job is to educate these guys and gals about the extreme shortcomings of the offer.

[unitedabx]

I say again. Ask for these promises in writing. You'll not get them and then ask them why not ? You won't get the job offer because they don't want thinking pilots they want compliant under 25's with nowhere else to go.

[quadspeed]

It's utterly pathetic to ask lowtimers to fight your battles for you.

A 20-something with wet ink on his license will take a job with Cathay regardless of the conditions. I did many, many years of flying with basicly no renumination. I propably made less money in total during my first 3000 hours than these kids make in their first year. Fly the jets, get the ratings, and you've still got 30 years to figure out lifestyle and retirement. Most of us have been there.

Whatever sh1tstorm is currently brewing, its all on the current pilots who didn't stomach fighting B-scale, nor C, nor D, nor this. Get over yourselves and come to terms with the 3-month contract you've signed. This is not Australia, not New-Zealand and certainly not the US wherer prostitution for flight-hours has been the standard for decades. This is Hong Kong where you offer your services to a cynical employer on a rolling 3-month contract. Making a deal with the devil certainly clings silver in the coffer, but don't come complaining when he comes to claim what's due.

Based on tens of thousands of comments on these forums, I'm sure any potential new-hire knows exactly what he's getting into. And if he's fine with that, then all the better for everybody. Current pilots should keep their mouths shut, as they lost this fight a long, long time ago.

[tmtxpress]

Living in a major Canadian city, is not cheap I pay $1600 a month for 800sq ft pad nowhere near the airport I work out of. It’s a 2 hour drive in rush hour for me. Granted Hong Kong is more expensive.. so let’s call the increase in pay as a SO a wash for the cost of living.


You mentioned 800sq ft - may I ask if that was meant to stress how small the pad is? In Hong Kong, families rarely live in a flat as big as 800 sq ft. If you want something this size in Tung Chung, which is right next to the airport, it is CAD 3600 per month minimum. Half an hour on the bus from there to the briefing room, but on your days off what are you going to do? Takes you one hour on the metro to get into town. Since CX SOs only do long haul flights they fly very little per month, and you are coming for the lifestyle, perhaps you would like to consider living a bit downtown? I will name a few places along the edge of downtown i.e. 15 mins away on the metro, namely Olympic, Kennedy Town, Happy Valley. You are looking at CAD 7000-8000 per month for these ones.

A while ago there was an urban myth some of the CX SOs live in Hokkaido, Japan and used staff travel to commute to Hong Kong for work because "that was the only affordable dignified accommodation option for their salary".

[avi8safely]

Hello there,
I've been reading this thread for a while and found out that most people here are from western countries. So I found it difficult to compare my company to CX.
I'd much appreciate if anyone can tell if things are better or worse at CX than my current situation.
I'm a 737 fo with 1800 hours tt of which 1500 hours on type, making 5,500-6,000 usd per month including every allowance, per-diem, etc and my wife is an office worker making 3,500 usd, so total monthly income 9-9.5k for my family.
We have two kids and live typical middle class life in a 650 sq ft apartment and save 3,000 usd.
Flying-wise, I fly 65 hours, 10 day offs, 8-9 nights layovers on monthly average.
I'm not american, australian, nor european so working in western world is not my option.
What I'm looking for if I work at CX are better crm, bigger jet, long haul experience, more time with family and my kids going to international school.
Would I better be CX or stay here?

[cxorcist]

I would stay, assuming you can upgrade in due time. You certainly won’t be saving $3000usd / month in HK. Your place in HK will likely be smaller and/or lower quality. Schools will really set you back in HK. You will probably lose much of your savings to the debentures just getting them into internationals. Your wife will probably have a hard time replacing her income unless she has skills beyond that of a normal office worker. The culture in HK is not desirable for most, especially without excess income, but some do seem to genuinely enjoy it.

[anxiao]

Avi8safely, many posters here are honestly trying to give you the true story of what life is like in HKG on a CX salary
I’ll add my knowledge to help your decision.

I doubt whether any pilot with less that 5 years in CX is saving 3000 US per month. They get by, but there is often more month at the end of the money.

I rent a 580 sq ft 2 bedroom flat in Discovery bay, a half hour busride from the airport. For production living it is not bad. UK would class it as B2/C1 social. Safe, kids run around at night, surrounded by green hills and the sea. I pay close to 2500USD for this on the 6th floor of a 24 story block. I have no kids, and would not like to bring up two kids in the space- but HK people do it in much less space. The schooling is good and a short bus ride away but expensive by world standards. Having no kids I can only go on what my neighbours tell me. But a non pilot neighbour taking home 10,000 USD with two kids in the Discovery bay school confides that they are often in debt and are stressed because of this.

For your wife, an office manager may make 2,000 USD per month but it is very competitive to get that sum. A friend employs an admin clerk for 1500USD per month. The lady still lives with her parents as she cannot afford to rent anywhere in hk on that market salary.

HK is a great city for a couple of years when single and carefree. It is very difficult to provide for a family, make savings and live a decent life on the remuneration that CX offers. It is a McJob until you find a career.

As quoted on another forum, what is the difference between a (CX) pilot and a 12in pizza? You can feed a family of 4 with a 12 inch pizza.

Hard but true!

[abaderrr]

quadspeed

Very well said.

[Arfur Dent]

That's it in a nutshell. Use Cathay just like they will use you. CX is not a career, it's a stepping stone to a proper job. Take the abuse and the mean spirited everything then move on.

[Foxdeux]

Maybe for DFO, but if you come in as a SO your hours are worthless. By the time you become a FO you would have wasted a few years and to jump ship to another airline, you’d start at the bottom of seniority. CX is fully aware of this, they know once you sign up as a SO you’re stuck with them.

[cxorcist]

This is an excellent point and should be taken as a warning to those considering it. Imo, it’s far better to cut your teeth anywhere else... GA, corporate, bush flying, regional, military. Any of these will enhance your actual flying skills that may someday save your life.

[a334]

Hello all

Based on what i've been able to find out, an SO at CX isn't actually type rated, and the hours you log can only be counted as P2X time...

What on earth is P2X time in the rest of the world? From what i've read P2X time is something only found in HK logbooks made specifically for companies like CX.

I am currently sitting at 270 hours and i'm waiting to receive interview dates for the direct entry SO position. I am trying to wrap my head around why exactly SO P2X time is completely useless. Does it not count towards your total time at least? So let's say I hypothetically fly 700 hours in my first year as an SO and that's all P2X time, how would I log that in my Canadian logbook? Would I not technically have 970 hours total time at the end of the first year?

I would imagine that an SO that has logged say 2000 hours P2X time must have some sort of use with those hours elsewhere in the world, or does no one in the world recognize P2X time and that's why it's useless?

[Slasher1]

YGBSM.

You know, I often see folks get flamed on this section and think poorly of the flamers.

But you can't fix stupid.

You are on the "grass is really greener" thread from escapees. Yet are trying to somehow rationalize poking your nose into the same hornets' nest that so many others have (with a great deal more experience in aviation and life), escaped, and told their tale such that others might not fall off the same cliff. By people who've dumped a great deal of seniority and sometimes life to get out and finally be happy. And many are.

Have a look through the other threads and try to glean a glimpse of happiness with anything work-related. And maybe consider abandoning the "if I stick my hand into the boiling water perhaps I won't get burned THIS time" mentality.

[controlledrest]

In HKG SO log P2X time for only when they are in the seat (even though the company expects those watching from the back seats to be involved in the operation and monitoring).

I recommend you ask your local aviation authority how the view P2X time and what time you can log in your non-HKG logbook - many countries log total flight time, not just seat time.

Some airlines now accept P2X time as valid time when interviewing (supply and demand) - ask the real airlines you may wish to work at how they view P2X time.

You don't want to under log your time. CX can be useful for gaining some SIM experience and even some P2X time prior to getting the job you really want.

[a334]

Thank you for the info, much appreciated

[main_dog]

a334

You’ve basically answered your own question already, those hours are essentially useless and many/most airlines would not count them towards their hiring requirements (although sometimes a few desperate ones will accept some P2X/ cruise relief hours at, say, 1/3 the hours logged). Like controlledrest says, do your due diligence and canvass potential employers you like for whether they take this type of time into account. Consider that while some airlines may presently accept some P2X time due to the current worldwide need for pilots, this may no longer be the case a few years down the line.

With CX going two S/O operations on longhaul (thus fewer F/Os needed) you can expect 5+ years as an S/O accruing this fairly useless time.That said, if you’re very young and have time on your side, you will then slide into the right seat of a wide body airliner, and within 7-8 years of joining, start accumulating some valid experience for an employer elsewhere. But in view of the dire new POS18 “contract” I would still suggest other alternatives if available. You never know what the hiring situation will be in 8 years: if it’s the middle of a downturn you might find yourself stuck here for much longer than expected and suddenly find yourself trapped here by seniority.

[a334]

I did find some info regarding cruise relief time in Canada, and based on what the advisory circular states, cruise relief time counts in full, however the way it's explained seems a little murky. I wanted to ask here for those who have direct experience in logging P2X time. I will see if I can find someone at the regulations office who can maybe give me an answer, but at the same time what the regulators say may not matter to an airline all that much so I would have to see if I could find a way to talk directly to someone at a major airline

Anyways thank you as well for your help

[cxorcist]

a334

It’s pretty simple really. Get a real job in which you actually fly the aircraft. Handing whatever skills you have now to CX and autopilots where they can only be destroyed is worst thing you can do. Don’t fool yourself... the money isn’t there, the flying experience isn’t there for many years, and you certainly won’t be getting a base in Canada or elsewhere anytime soon, if ever. HK is very undesirable on low pay. It’s truly a no brainer, but if you’re like every other dumb kid on these forums, you won’t listen, so I’m just wasting my time, again.

[Slasher1]

I think that's what is both frustrating and comical about the situation at the same time. I did ALOT of dumb things as a kid, but can't remember being this willing to elaborately rationalize doing something really really dumb against just about everyones' better advice.

I get the image of an old timer looking at a kid with a can of gasoline he's about to use to start a bonfire. He carefully explains how gasoline more explodes than burns when you light it, and that the kid is about to hurt himself. He even leads him over to some kerosene to use instead (or maybe even diesel). The old timer goes as far as to show the kid scars on his hands and arms from when HE tried to light a bonfire with gasoline -- not having the benefit at the time of someone being there with experience and genuine concern.

But nothing he says or alternatives he suggests has any impact. The kid pours the gasoline on the wood, lights a match, a huge WHOOOOOOOOMP, and you get to read about him in the news.

[a334]

cxorcist

I didn't say I was going to CX, I was looking for some clarification on P2X time. Thanks

[CxEx2]

Back to the original point of this whole thread. I used to work at this airline as an s/o and have left. Like someone else has posted previously the grass
is more or less the same but the main thing is I’m living where I want to be and have a good lifestyle and actually enjoy the challenges of flying in a window seat again.

When I say that the grass is more or less the same I am saying that there’s always going to be people complaining about rosters and time off ect. But it’s nice to be in the flight deck talking about normal things as opposed to how awful the company is ect.

Regarding the p2x time I was surprised how much the airline I am now at regarded the so time and it
will count, if you like for company requirements for command ect however in terms or the relevant authority I am not sure they will “count” these hours toward ATPLl or maybe they will count half of it.

Regarding logging I logged the time in my home logbook as block to block and specified that it was SO time.

Finally to anyone considering moving on, I definitely do not regret my decision to move on and am thoroughly enjoying life in my home country.

[bm330]

a334 Be careful with the regs when you talk about Cruise Relief time. Relief pilots at AC are fully type rated - P1, not the make believe P2X that Cathay uses. The fact that other Airlines understand what a CX SO does helps with the interview but will not give you hours for your licence.

Unless you are Passport blocked or otherwise unemployable, Cathay on COS18 is a mistake.

[MrAndy]

Relief pilots at AC get an unrestricted rating, but they do not have the same P1/P2/P2X system as they do in Hong Kong. Their ratings used to be cruise restricted, until pilots started worrying about their employability during an economic downturn. Cruise relief time is still cruise relief time, and they are logged as "co-pilot" without credit for takeoffs and landings. The Hong Kong P2X is a restricted rating for the cruise, which is essentially what their RPs used to have.

[controlledrest]

I did find some info regarding cruise relief time in Canada, and based on what the advisory circular states, cruise relief time counts in full, however the way it's explained seems a little murky. I wanted to ask here for those who have direct experience in logging P2X time. I will see if I can find someone at the regulations office who can maybe give me an answer, but at the same time what the regulators say may not matter to an airline all that much so I would have to see if I could find a way to talk directly to someone at a major airline

Anyways thank you as well for your help

I suggest you contact regulators via email, you want a written response to support how you log your time in case it is ever questioned. You don't know where you might end up. Different regulators have different ideas. When I came to CX I had to have a little from my home country as to why I needed an ATPL for the flying I had been doing so that the dick heads at HKG CAD would accept my command time.

[FRYVA]

Re: P2X

Take this for what it’s worth from an anonymous person on the internet who has been there.

Once you have 1000hrs+ as a (preferably) type rated FO nobody, and I do mean nobody these days, cares about the rest of your logbook and how it is made up. At that 1000hr FO point your P2X hours then could well be F18 hours as far as airline recruiters are concerned. Until you get to that point your P2X hours are worth very little unless your airline of choice is absolutely desperate and it really just puts you in the same pool as the low houred non-TR guy. I know of one guy who joined a UK major on a big jet on the back of P2X only and the old Head of Training at said airline has since confirmed they wont entertain that idea again and he basically ended up doing a full rating on something else.

If you’re 21 and fancy HK for a few years I still maintain it’s a great start to your career. It is a lot of fun at the start. The second you start thinking of settling down, bang out immediately. CX is an utterly toxic place to work and it can’t be done on what they currently offer.

[letsfly75]

I had a pretty great gig with CX. I was based in America. My schedule was reasonable. I flew with pretty cool people. My paycheck was nice. What I didn’t have was confidence in my future. Things at CX we’re on a pretty steep slide and I decided it was prudent to jump off. I took a huge pay cut to join Fedex. That being said I believe I’ll make up that cut in three years. Also, I’ll be flying for an American carrier with proper work rules. Imagine that! I’ve been gone five months now and I’ve never regretted my decision to leave cx one second. My only regret is that I didn’t escape sooner.

[Mendi Matt]

Thanks for posting. I guess things have changed a lot since most of these posts, given the unprecedented toll Covid-19 and it's global travel/lockdown/quarantine effects are having on the world's airlines. Some of those who have gone from being relatively senior in one airline, to move on to greener pastures and start at the bottom of 'the list' again, will now be out of work. Very sad times indeed.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Maybe time to un-stick this thread.

[Coronavirus]

pretty sure everyone who left for that tasty green grass is unemployed.
Unstick the thread +1

[RusCo]

I left CX after 15 years am at SWA and am not getting furloughed. Not a chance. If I were at CX things would be looking pretty bleak. Thank God I left CX and Hong Kong.

[cxorcist]

Right! Good for you, and thank you for setting the record straight. I’m don’t think a single major airline pilot in the US has yet to be furloughed. AA is only the only one potentially furloughing pilots next month...

[CRWCRW]

UN-STICK.........

[RusCo]

All you CX lovers are going to be unemployed soon enough. Unstick since there will be no more CX.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Seems like you left with an axe to grind..

I don't have any emotional attachment to my employer, just a job really.Happy to hear you found a better place, no hard feelings or envy. I actually would like to leave as well.

Maybe ask yourself though why you are so much happier? My impression is that the most prominent reason to leave is simply the desire to live at home or the threat of having to move to Hong Kong for a command. Imagine CX would offer the same conditions ( money and tax of HK, patterns of a local airline, etc) plus a base in your home town. Would it be such a bad place to work for?

My impression is you project your frustration on CX. The safety argument is not for real, the training and checking is bearable, the working times and long haul crew compositions are overall above average.

It all boils down to living in Hong Kong and working with colleagues from a different cultural background. It is hard for a guy like Cxorcist to sit 10 hours next to a Chinese or European who don't share nor respect his political views, don't care about his military career etc, and I don't mean to ridicule that. Social acceptance and company with people of your own tribe is an innate desire for all of us. Living as an expat can be terrible, no doubt.It is no fun to work and live with people who regard you as a primitive redneck, neither is the prospect of flying with what one regards as "marxist snowflakes".

But none of these problems are the responsibility of CX. It is not their fault they are based in HK, of course employ people from all parts of the world, face political problems, pollution,real estate craziness, uncertainty, riots etc.

I think it would be helpful for to identify and finally acknowledge the prominent factor of Hong Kong in that game, it could help you to find peace.

[Rie]

I have written in MY previous posts that I have already applied to FedEx, UPS, Delta and United, (just added US Airways to the list). I have also taken the kids out of school in Hong Kong., they will be starting school in january at home. My 750,000 dollar shoe box is for sale. So, yes, I am doing something about it.

As far as the seniority trap...there is no seniority at cx, what there are are golden handcuffs. But what few fail to realize is yes one makes a good amount of money, 10 year SFO, plus housing plus schooling and that all adds up to more than any Captain at the above airlines, HOWEVER...Hong Kong, as you all know, is extremely expensive so any money made is spent.

So yes...I am leaving. I have no bad feelings for CX, I enjoy flying the routes, I enjoy flying with the great guys and gals..I just can no longer take living in Hong Kong.

If only the bases had opened, but waiting 3 plus years for a so called announcement is enough. I am not getting any younger...and the carrot is not getting any closer...

Seems like RusCo didn't have the attitude to move on back then. Thankfully Southwest took him onboard and sent him home. Go away troll. Your life in HK is long gone so probably for the best to stop grinding your axe.

[CX ex]

Never ceases to amaze me how a person can justify how grand it is to be a slave to such a company because they fly a widebody for a company in a once exotic, now ordinary, city in the Far East.

Ironically it’s been mostly the Americans who have left the British (Chinese) company in pursuit of a better life instead of staying in hopes of false promises and ever declining conditions promised by the managers playing musical chairs.

At least we will die on our feet instead of live on our knees.

[Piet Lood]

Lot of (bragging) words.
Could have just said:
”I’m allright Jack. And I don’t care what happens with the aviation industry after I’m gone”.
By the way: FULL schooling? Or just 75%?
Details are important, especially when you’re talking about HKD200,000 school bills.

[airdualbleedfault]

Leaving HK had nothing to do with the Airline, the people I flew with, any yearning to fly with my own "tribe" etc etc. It was plain and simple for me, HK is a polluted craphole and I wasn't willing to poison my family (and myself) for a few extra bucks. That's not my opinion, it's fact that you are living in one of the most polluted cities in the world for a few extra bucks. Then of course there's the population density, the tiny flats, the expenses etc etc, but that is just my opinion, some might like living in each others pockets

[RusCo]

Sucks to be at CX, eh?

Cos 20 was bound to happen the vid just accelerated it.

Been gone 6 years and don't mis a thing about it. The grass IS greener, no doubt.

Later to all you conformists. Good luck surviving on that pay.

[CX ex]

Very sorry to hear what’s going on over there. It’s a sad state of affairs indeed for the industry. I wish everyone well and especially those who have dedicated and sacrificed so many years for CX. I have some great memories of Hong Kong and many mis-adventures during my time there

[JulyBlue]

Looking back to those years in CX I am now confident to say that these were by far the worst in my career. Words cannot describe the pain and desperation the prince of darkness and his bunch of terrible people have done to my wife and myself. It took me many years to recover from the climate of fear that was prevalent in this airline. Some trainers used their head start of having done the type rating a few years before to intimidate me to compensate for their inferiority complex instead of training to confidence. I quite liked Hong Kong and its people but I despise this kind of company culture. If justice had been done, those responsible would be in jail.

I have done the right move at the right time, now flying through COVID uninterrupted and at full salary. If I stay healthy, I will retire from my last landing reaching the age limit without a single day of unemployment.

To the protagonists and to the people who kept their mouth shut: I was down, but I was not out.