New air carrier from Wales

[WHBM]

The Welsh National political party says that they are aiming to have a Welsh national airline

Plaid Cymru would establish a Wales national carrier with direct connections to the Americas and mainland Europe

Plaid Cymru 'would hold Wales independence referendum' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-43520301)


Has their April 1 press release got out a week early ?

[macdo]

LoL, they have already had a few which went down the toilet. Just another way to waste taxpayers money. The Mona-Cardiff service was really looked just like a private service for Welsh Assembly members. CWL is as rubbish as it ever was, with even fewer staff these days. The one chance they had for success was to develop the old British Steel site at Newport into a satellite for Heathrow, with a high speed rail link to London. But that would have taken some b@als, which as we all know, UK politicians lack!

[Mike Flynn]

I am just wondering where a Welsh national airline would fly to?

The original was Cambrian Airlines which was taken over by BA and folded 40 years ago.

Tony Clemmo and Brian Proctor tried running a Welsh airline called Airways Cymru and that went bankrupt in the 1980's.

More recently there were attempts to operate an airline out of Swansea that also folded.

As for suggestions that an airport could have been built at Llanwern that is poppycock.

The most sensible place for an airport serving Wales and the West was Filton but the Welsh politicians would never have allowed that.

[Cynical Sid]

If they base it in the west of Anglesey, they could call it FlyLlanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoc h.

[WHBM]

There's apparently a longstanding community of Welsh-speaking onetime expats in Patagonia, so a daily widebody from Cardiff to Buenos Aires must be on the list (some schoolteachers there are funded by the Welsh Government).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonian_Welsh

[PDXCWL45]

LoL, they have already had a few which went down the toilet. Just another way to waste taxpayers money. The Mona-Cardiff service was really looked just like a private service for Welsh Assembly members. CWL is as rubbish as it ever was, with even fewer staff these days. The one chance they had for success was to develop the old British Steel site at Newport into a satellite for Heathrow, with a high speed rail link to London. But that would have taken some b@als, which as we all know, UK politicians lack!
You obviously haven't been there lately!

[PDXCWL45]

The most sensible place for an airport serving Wales and the West was Filton but the Welsh politicians would never have allowed that.
Maybe because it's in England!
It'll never happen it's just some belief by some nationalists that nationhood requires a state carrier like in Ireland. Flybe are doing a good job at Cardiff airport providing connections Wales has never had and are essentially filling any role a national carrier would.

[davidjohnson6]

If Carlisle is worthy of scheduled flights then presumably the same applies to Swansea as well...

I'll get my coat...

[daz211]

Well valley could do with another route poss London inside of just the 2 daily Cardiff flights

[tibbs87]

Could be an interesting prospect, I mean Aberporth could generate good traffic to Cardiff and elsewhere because of its proximity to Aberystwyth & the University, plus the West of Wales :)

[SWBKCB]

Having recently taken the train to Aberystwyth, can't see the demand for any airline service!

[CabinCrewe]

Bring back Airways Cymru!

[rog747]

Bring back Airways Cymru!

Airways International Cymru
yes but with some decent aircraft that did not go AOG if you looked at them :rolleyes:

good old IEA (Mr Asprou, Aspro Holidays) was a grand outfit - but got gobbled up by Airtours - they were doing well so no surprise MR A and his sons took the dosh

back in the old days Court Line & Clarkson's had Cardiff and Bristol sewn up for IT's

also with Cambrian (flyin for Bob at Hourmont Travel)

[GROUNDHOG]

Slightly off topic but can I remind everyone that the most recent incarnation of Air Wales DIDN'T FOLD. It ceased operating at the owners choice.

As to a new airline I would say establish the need first?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Not only did Airways International Cymru, aka 'Air Crummy", fold but Tony Clemo got banged up for tax evation, from the ashes of Air Crummy rose Amber Air which PDQ got taken over by Paramount which soon thereafter itself folded after one or more directors absconded with more than a few bucket loads of dosh ... We're doing quite well so far :)

Air Crummy has an in-house tour operator Red Dragon Travel, thereafter there was Inter European that had Aspro Holidays, I'm out of touch but are there any modern day Welsh tour operators of a size to finance an in-house airline.

Of course Wales is an ideal place to register/base an airline, or indeed any other business, because it'll get government subsidies, that'll be why Bruce started Cardiff Aviation, back in the 80's Desmond Norman was building crop sprayers on the flying club side of CWL, why do you think BA have such a maintenance facility there even if the then airport boss did lose his job over it, but as for dedicated aircraft for more than once or twice a week transatlantics ... Well dream on!

As has previously been said had Air Wales stuck with Do228's they might still be going, they'd certainly be operating the Valley route, and UK is missing a that size of aircraft operator, airports such as BLK, IOM, LDY, indeed CAX to name but a few could do with such a size of aircraft to operate niche routes and where better to get financial subsidies basing it than in Wales.

[bycrewlgw]

Plaid can say whatever it wants. Not like it’s going to get into government anytime soon (although I used to vote for them in my younger days). You could put a donkey with a red rosette for election and it would be voted in.

Where would the airline operate? Can’t see them going head to head with any established carriers? The business destinations Brussels, Zurich etc have tried and failed. Can only think of potential sun routes which would work but do we need a national airline to operate these? Don’t think so. Would love to be proved wrong.

[racedo]

It'll never happen it's just some belief by some nationalists that nationhood requires a state carrier like in Ireland.

Which state carrier would that be in Ireland then ?

[PDXCWL45]

Which state carrier would that be in Ireland then ?

Aer Lingus is the national carrier of Ireland. Though it isn't state owned anymore.

[racedo]

Aer Lingus is the national carrier of Ireland. Though it isn't state owned anymore.

Nope Aer Lingus isn't the National Carrier and hasn't been since it was privatised.

[PDXCWL45]

Nope Aer Lingus isn't the National Carrier and hasn't been since it was privatised.

Considering Aer Lingus only flies from the island of Ireland and has a very Irish name it's the national carrier of Ireland or the flag carrier of Ireland. If you go and read literature about Welsh independence the Republic of Ireland is held up as an example a lot. Reality is Wales is different and a flag carrier won't work but it won't stop some people dreaming.

[GLAEDI]

I’d say Ryanair is the only major Irish ☘️ Airline company as Aer Lingus is owned by Spanish IAG.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Can you guys get over the thread drift please and get back on to subject matter?

[SWBKCB]

Can you guys get over the thread drift please and get back on to subject matter?

Is there one?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Is there one?

Yes, Fleetwood Mac sang about it ... "Dreams" :)

[Heathrow Harry]

"valley could do with another route poss London"

68000 people on Anglesey and hardly a banker amongst them - I don't think so........

[PDXCWL45]

"valley could do with another route poss London"

68000 people on Anglesey and hardly a banker amongst them - I don't think so........
Between Gwynedd, Conwy and Ynys Mon there is a population of about 300,000 people. The area is also a popular area for tourism. Only limitation VLY has is it's opening hour's of 8 am to 6 pm and each flight can only carry a max of 19 people due to terminal restrictions.

[daz211]

"valley could do with another route poss London"

68000 people on Anglesey and hardly a banker amongst them - I don't think so........

What’s bankers got to do with anything? Anglesey has a massive tourist market and it’s a good 2 hrs drive to Manchester airport a London route would do well not only as a destination but for onward flights.

[SWBKCB]

Anglesey has a massive tourist market

Really????

[rog747]

an op from valley is like an op from lands end or st marys - max 19 seats -
so not governed by any no security nonsense - bliss for passengers but we are talking only twin otter size or dornier 228 sort of thing

[daz211]

Yes were you not aware of it ? It has some of the country’s best beaches with Cristal clear water and has its own micro climate people visit from all over the world I have regular guests in my holiday cottage from China and from over the pond the island is at the foot of of a national park with lots of new attentions zip world and cave trampolining to name a few

[rog747]

Yes were you not aware of it ? It has some of the country’s best beaches with Cristal clear water and has its own micro climate people visit from all over the world I have regular guests in my holiday cottage from China and from over the pond the island is at the foot of of a national park with lots of new attentions zip world and cave trampolining to name a few

shame anglesey does not have the same tourism input and profile as say the scillies - anglesey and the surrounds are beautiful

the airline into ISC does amazingly well op'g from LEQ EXT and NQY

valley would be ideal for a similar set up to get folk in

[SWBKCB]

I have family on the island and have visited many times - its the word "massive" I was querying,

[Heathrow Harry]

I guess most tourists are from N W England

It's certainly unlikely to be able to support any serious airline when you see how other spots struggle

[daz211]

I have family on the island and have visited many times - its the word "massive" I was querying,

It’s massive when taken into comparison with the size of the island I can achieve 42 weeks of the year in rental for my 3 bed cottage and there is loads of cottages and camping places lots of luxurious sites with cabins etc.

[SWBKCB]

What about massive in terms of supporting regular air services? Would the Cardiff service survive if it wasn't for the Government travel element?

[PDXCWL45]

2 daily flights to London with J41s should be no problem. Heathrow would be the prefered airport but I'll guess VLY would settle for Gatwick.

[SWBKCB]

Meanwhile, back in the real world... :ugh:

[PDXCWL45]

Meanwhile, back in the real world... :ugh:

Ok then maybe Stansted!

[caaardiff]

2 daily flights to London with J41s should be no problem. Heathrow would be the prefered airport but I'll guess VLY would settle for Gatwick.

Jerry, the economics of a flight to London would really not be viable.
Given the fees that would need to be paid and there is the option of a direct train from Holyhead with Virgin to Euston taking less than 4 hours, there is no justification of it being needed. Also who would need to use it? If it's to LCY is there that much business between North West Wales and London? If LHR, isn't MAN a viable alternative option?

Where's the justification that this needs to be subsidised like CWL-VLY? If it can't be justified then the fares would outstrip the demand straight away.

Also can't see LHR or LGW wanting to give up slots for a J41 either!

[daz211]

Meanwhile, back in the real world... :ugh:

What’s the real world does it just consist of large airlines and airports
I remember all the fuss about SEN and more recently CAX which I know will be a success there is no reason why Small/medium sized aircraft could not work from STN SEN LTN or even LGW.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t see it happening and if it did it would be way down on the list for a new route from any airline but it could work.

[rog747]

i see J41 a/c mentioned but i thought valley can only handle a/c up to load 19 pax

same as ISC and lands end

[PDXCWL45]

ahem cough

pub talk jetstreams - they are too big and more importantly they carry 29 pax

Valley can only handle and permit a/c up to load 19 pax (same as ISC and lands end)

keep up with the programme chaps and ladies

Eastern Airways uses a J41 on the CWL-VLY route but they are capped at 19 seats.
In the end it would be great for VLY and North West Wales to get a London route especially to help with inbound tourism but the chances of it happening unless it's a PSO is practically zero.

[rog747]

Eastern Airways uses a J41 on the CWL-VLY route but they are capped at 19 seats.
In the end it would be great for VLY and North West Wales to get a London route especially to help with inbound tourism but the chances of it happening unless it's a PSO is practically zero.

ah yes i see the capped at 19 seats - thanks

really then its a twin otter job would be ideal

but the distances to travel in one of those more than an hour or so are rather
unappealing to many pax -
Ext-ISC is 135 miles and takes just under an hour and SOU to ISC takes almost 2 hours and often stops at EXT

[A320.b744]

2 daily flights to London with J41s should be no problem. Heathrow would be the prefered airport but I'll guess VLY would settle for Gatwick.

The only London airport that could even be considered for such a route would be Southend, and even that's never going to happen. Operating to LTN or STN, never mind slot restrained LHR, LGW and LCY, could never be feasible given the small aircraft size and would be a complete failure, even with heavy government subsidies.

[davidjohnson6]

I think it's perhaps useful if we all remind ourselves that several years ago Gatwick changed its pricing policy so that small aircraft ended up paying almost the same per aircraft (not per pax) as a 150 seat A320 / B737. The result was that Flybe with 78 seat Dash 8 aircraft saw the airport charge per pax becoming unsustainable when considered against what price pax were willing to pay for tickets. Flybe appealed to the CAA but lost.

The move by Gatwick was likely an attempt to force small aircraft out - the airport at the time had a policy of aiming to increase the average number of pax per aircraft movement.

I imagine Stansted would adopt a similiar pricing policy if anyone tried putting 19 seaters into STN over the summer period. Luton has recently begun making life more difficult for private jets in favour of A320 / B737 aircraft. Slots at Heathrow will be far too expensive for 19 seaters and City is closed for 24 hours at the weekend.

Unless someone can come up with a big chunk of Govt subsidy (like Dundee) or get major political support in Westminster, the only viable London airport for Anglesey is (as stated above) Southend.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Forget the Twin Otter except on routes where it's STOL capabilities are essential, it is slow, fixed undercarriage, unpressuised, noisy and not a pleasant experience.

As for suggestions of a J41 but with a restricted load, great, paying Eiurocontrol, fuel, landing/navigation fees etc. for some 10+ seats that shall forever remain empty, not a good business plan if the objective is to make money.

The Do228 on the other hand, PDQ, pressurised and retractable gear.

[840]

This thread moved from 'direct connections to the Americas and mainland Europe' to a few extra seats from Anglesey very quickly. This may say something about the potential for such an airline.

[Harry Wayfarers]

This thread moved from 'direct connections to the Americas and mainland Europe' to a few extra seats from Anglesey very quickly. This may say something about the potential for such an airline.

Call me old-fashioned but last time I checked Angelsey was in Wales, the OP didn't specify CWL, Hawarden, Canaefon, Aberporth, Swansea nor any of the others that I can't be bothered to recall the identities of.

[Mike Flynn]

The only way a national airline could work for Wales is a Gulfstream or Learjet, there just isn't the demand. Its easier for the people in South Wales to catch a GWR train to Reading and get the coach, or Paddington and take Heathrow Express/Connect.

Spot on there airsouthwest.

The facts are that north and south Wales is divided by a sparsely populated centre.

The area from Anglesey to Deeside is well served by the A55 Expressway which connects nicely with Liverpool and Manchester airports.

South Wales has the M4 which serves all the highly populated area up to Carmarthenshire with rapid connections to CWL,Bristol,Heathrow and Birmingham.

I cannot see who a Welsh airline would serve.

The Cardiff to Valley flights have been highly supported by public money and the passengers mostly Welsh politicians and BBC / S4C media folk who claim the cost back on expenses.


In the days of Airways Cymru and Inter European these were charter companies built off the back of Red Dragon Travel and Aspro Holidays bookings.

A lot of my GA friends from Rhoose went on to fly for Tony Clemmo and Air Inter European.

With the likes of Ryanair and most travellers now favouring direct internet booking the chances of another airline emerging in Wales is remote.

[WHBM]

In the days of Airways Cymru and Inter European these were charter companies built off the back of Red Dragon Travel and Aspro Holidays bookings.
I think you will find that these onetime charter carriers, although seemingly based at Cardiff, in fact got the bulk of their operations flying the likes of Birmingham to Malaga etc, or doing subcharters for European operators. I never actually saw them at Cardiff, but did at Manchester and Palma.

[Mike Flynn]

We did see them at Cardiff although as you correctly say they got the bulk of their work outside Wales.

Indeed my friends working for Air Inter European helped to break the Australian pilots strike when I lived downunder in 1989.Aspro were so lucky they had new aircraft unlike the problems that Airways Cymru encountered.

[bycrewlgw]

I love the comments it’ll never work etc. Of course it would. It would however canabalise the existing network from Cardiff and would operate feeders from the north. Wouldn’t be great for competition but there is a market for air travel from Wales.

[Harry Wayfarers]

We did see them at Cardiff although as you correctly say they got the bulk of their work outside Wales.

Indeed my friends working for Air Inter European helped to break the Australian pilots strike when I lived downunder in 1989.Aspro were so lucky they had new aircraft unlike the problems that Airways Cymru encountered.

In fact during IEA's first season with a solitary B737-200 it was pretty much all CWL work.

2nd season with 2 x B737-300's one based at CWL, one at BRS.

3rd season Monarch's G-MONP joined the fleet, recall BFS & MAN and perhaps LTN coming in to the equation

Then 4th B737-300 G-IEAA came along just as the Aussie domestic pilots downed tools, that was it, one and then a 2nd aircraft, and your truly to manage the operation, off to Oz initially based in MEL before our then permanent base of ADL, 40 degrees in the shade over new year was so bad we demanded danger money :)

Then the first B757 came along, thereafter ex Air Europe moved in and A320's became the thing, of course IEA expanded outside of Wales because an airline cannot expand from one solitary regional airport.

Let it not be missed that the Asprou family were/are Greek Cypriots, Cypus and then Greece were their primary markets and I recall Cypriot operations thru GLA and NCL to name but two.

The rest is history.

[Andy_S]

......there is a market for air travel from Wales.

But why does it need a 'Welsh' airline to satisfy it?

[Harry Wayfarers]

But why does it need a 'Welsh' airline to satisfy it?

Because it shall receive government hand-outs much the same as CWL airport does ... It's all about national pride!

[WHBM]

I've never understood why the north-south link operates to middle-of-nowhere Valley, far from the population centres. I'm sure Airbus at Hawarden could be persuaded to accommodate them, which would make it a worthwhile service, and serve the most populous town in North Wales, which is Wrexham, as well as being more convenient for the other coastal towns.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I've never understood why the north-south link operates to middle-of-nowhere Valley, far from the population centres. I'm sure Airbus at Hawarden could be persuaded to accommodate them, which would make it a worthwhile service, and serve the most populous town in North Wales, which is Wrexham, as well as being more convenient for the other coastal towns.

Because there is a senior politician who lives in Holyhead and has an office in Cardiff ... Get it? :)

[Newforest2]

GlenKinAir?

[Mike Flynn]

Because there is a senior politician who lives in Holyhead and has an office in Cardiff ... Get it? :)

Not quite true.

BBC Wales and and a lot of independant Welsh language tv production companies supplying S4C have a major presence in Gwynedd.

They along with Welsh politicians make up most of the numbers who want an air service between Valley and Cardiff.

It certainly has been a political route just like the free Traws Cymru bus which travels mid Wales empty.

Funding for the air route over the years has come from the EEC.

[Heathrow Harry]

TBH most people in the north rarely go south and vice versa

practically the N coast is a dormitory commuter land of Liverpool and Chester and Cardiff is part of a Cardiff/Gloucester/Cheltenham/Bristol/ Bath economic area

The politicians can talk all they like about a Welsh nation but practically it's two areas separated by a great empty zone

[GLAEDI]

In all honesty, why is there a clamber for a national airline. In Scotland we have one that’s specifically for the geography of Scotland ie Loganair but if you ask Joe Public they’ll be pushed to name it, I definitely wouldn’t call it a flag carrier. If demand for flights from Wales was there the European carriers would come. The U.K. (the GB bit) can for air travel divided in to top, middle and bottom. EDI & GLA basically serve the North ie Scotland down to Carlisle & Newcastle in the South, MAN & BHX pick up the middle and BRS & the London Airports the south. Smaller airports have their own markets ie ABZ, NCL EMA, CWL and the like.

There’s really no flag carriers in U.K. in the traditional sense of LH, KL, AF or in ME3.

The 4 main British companies are Jet2.com, Thomas Cook, Flybe & Easyjet none can be classed as flag carriers.

BA is Spanish (IAG)
FR is Eire
VS is US/NLD/FRA/GBR owned
TUI is DEU

So that leaves the small regional carries like Loganair & Eastern. What really does Wales get out of a state owned airline apart from its taxpayers paying higher taxes to pay for a tailfin on a empty plane??

You’re talking about a flight from Valley to London for tourists. That’s as pointless as a flight from London to Isle of Skye which has a greater tourism sector than Anglesey. It’s also further away from its two closet airports in GLA & INV but its tourist trade is booming because like Anglesey people will fly into nearest international airport and hire a car (and it’ll still be cheaper than flying direct).

There’s better money taxpayers money needs to be spent on in Wales, NHS, roads, schools & the like. Not 737s and A320s flying to Malaga with a Welsh dragon on its tail.

[PDXCWL45]

To be honest I fail to even see how Flybe make a money having a hub at Cardiff, it made sense when it was ASW with flights to Newquay and Plymouth which take hours by car or train.
Well I've heard they are very happy with their Cardiff base and publicly mentioned they are looking at basing a 4th aircraft in 2019.

[MerchantVenturer]

airsouthwest

Welsh government loans to airport 'could breach rules' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-34188588)

This BBC report of September 2015 gives a good idea of the relationship between the Welsh Government and Flybe. Look at para 7 in particular.

The arrangement seems to suit both Flybe and the Welsh Government which might explain why both are satisfied.

[PDXCWL45]

Makes more sense now, so basically without a little helping hand those routes wouldn't make a profit either.

Only Flybe and the airport would know that.
The Flybe base has given Wales though direct connections to cities and countries Wales has never had before which not only helps with economic connections but inbound tourism. It's given the airport the boost in passenger numbers that not only has led to jobs being created but investment into the airport itself. It's also led to Wales attracting Qatar Airways and the TUI expansion because of the confidence it's created. Which is all good for Wales as a country.

[MerchantVenturer]

Makes more sense now, so basically without a little helping hand those routes wouldn't make a profit either.
I was pointing out that the Welsh Government initially at least did assist Flybe significantly. If this has led to or is leading to an eventual sustainable Flybe operation, especially one that will help to add value to the airport as an asset, then the WG can argue that it was money well spent. PDXCWL45 has pointed out the advantages to the Welsh economy that a viable and growing CWL brings.

How close it came to illegal state aid could only be decided by a EC/CMA enquiry. In the absence of one it must be presumed the WG provided satisfactory assurances that the aid was lawful.

On the subject of a national airline for Wales, a few years ago there was vague talk about intra-Wales routes in addition to the current PSO route. Unless the WG came up with a large amount of money to fund such a venture it isn't likely to be viable whichever airline operated it.

[PDXCWL45]

Very true, could this have been done if Wales had a national airline though?

If the Welsh government had set up their own airline instead of striking a deal with Flybe then maybe not as they wouldn't have the connections or partnerships that they have and would be under a hell of a lot of pressure to launch long haul routes as well.

[Heathrow Harry]

And it would be a sitting target for the media and the opposition... regular losses a certainty

[Harry Wayfarers]

The most recent 'Welsh' airline closed down because it over expanded itself going from Do228's to ATR42's, Wales wasn't even able to sustain a local scheduled service ATR42 operator and now some dreamer(s) imagine a 'Welsh' airline operating regular transatlantic's that no other UK operator has been bold enough to consider viable, but then they envisage operating to European cities also so now they're planning a mixed fleet of a long haul jet or few and some short range turboprops or pocket rockets.


Air Wales couldn't even make an ATR42 operation work but had they stuck with Do228's they might still be going now and what it might take is for another Do228 operator to take the place of Air Wales, to learn from their mistakes.


It has already been mentioned that 'Welsh' airlines have expanded their businesses outside of Wales, of course they have, with Wales only having one commercially viable airport what else should be expected?


Another airline to try close European city schedules from/to CWL was Manx Regional with Jetstreams back in the 90's, they failed miserably, I actually took a day trip to BRU with them one day, a few passengers on the outward with myself the only passenger on the return.


But base an airline in Wales, employ a workforce in Wales, take the government subsidies, but branch it out, there are niche routes begging to be served out there by aomething like a Do228 operator, the CWL/VLY/CWL route for one, back in the 90's Air Kilroe commenced a MAN/CWL/MAN route with a J31, people were laughing but the passenger loads were good, probably for connections in/out of MAN, the IOM ticket seller apparently made a successful route with IOM/GLO/IOM, IOM/BLK/IOM is another route currently being neglected, IOM could also do with a morning & evening puddle jumper service to/from BHD, Waterford needs such a size of aircraft operation, perhaps WAT/BHX/WAT, maybe a niche route or two to be had out of LDY and the list probably goes on.

[840]

To what extent was it working as a Do228 service?

I remember it was originally based in Pembrey, then they moved to Swansea. Then they switched to ATR operation and added Cardiff to Swansea, then Swansea was closed. All this happened in 6 years and suggests a somewhat fluid business plan.

I think the real issue here is that there are effectively multiple airlines being discussed. One is an operation with Do228s or similar, serving some of the smaller airfields around Wales. Another is effectively a revival or the old Air Wales, linking Cardiff with relatively nearby destinations in Europe. The last is a more grandiose plan for long haul and longer European links from Cardiff.

The issue is that any start-up airline needs to concentrate on one of these only and can consider adding the other parts over a much longer period as it grows.

But it's hard to see where to start. The smallest operation is the least capita intensive and at least serves markets where nobody is likely to try to compete and kill the service, but it's undeniable that the most, possibly only, viable market is London where the costs of landing such a small aircraft are extortionate.

[Harry Wayfarers]

But it's hard to see where to start. The smallest operation is the least capita intensive and at least serves markets where nobody is likely to try to compete and kill the service, but it's undeniable that the most, possibly only, viable market is London where the costs of landing such a small aircraft are extortionate

Don't need London, KLM have long since been offering international connections via AMS from CWL, a CWL/MAN/CWL service would enhance that, LTN is circa 45 minutes from a London terminus, SEN circa 60 minutes, BHX is only 75 minutes and significantly closer to Ireland for lshorter flight times to and from.

[840]

But any service would need to survive largely on point to point travel. Is there enough demand even for Cardiff for that? I would actually have thought the second most viable destination may be Dublin, as it's usually one of the 2 or 3 most popular cities from UK airports, is a short hop and is separated by sea, so it doesn't have competing rail services; plus it's a good place for onward travel for those who want it.

[Heathrow Harry]

The op was about Valley... not extra flights from Cardiff

I dont think anyone sees a viable service other than a glorified air taxi to Valley

[Letsflycwl]

Both DUB, ORK & JER were the most popular routes for Air Wales, I think the other routes drained the money from the company, LPL, ABZ, PLH all had shocking loads and the schedule was a nightmare.

The ATR42 was a good choice for DUB, ORK & JER as they also used it for the odd charter flight too during quieter down times.

A fleet of 5 ATR was a big jump, had they just concentrated on the routes with demand and a smaller fleet who knows they may still be around today

[Harry Wayfarers]

The op was about Valley... not extra flights from Cardiff

I dont think anyone sees a viable service other than a glorified air taxi to Valley

The OP was for a new Welsh airline, not airport!

[MerchantVenturer]

Air Wales operated some routes from CWL on behalf of bmibaby. Prestwick was one and I think Belfast Int, Cork and Jersey might have been others.

baby used its own aircraft on some of these routes initially before switching them to Air Wales to operate for them. Prestwick was certainly one. baby itself had originally flown CWL-GLA but then moved the Scottish end to PIK which Air Wales operated for them.

[GROUNDHOG]

As one of the two people that wrote the original Air Wales business plan and found the finance to back it I can assure you it was no more fluid than any other business plan. A plan is a plan and any company will evolve based on that plan but rarely without the plan changing.

Harry Wayfarers is absolute right IMHO, had Air Wales stuck with the original Do228 until the load factors were higher and not insisted the fares had to be similar to low cost carriers the airline may well have still been in business.

Bigger isn't more profitable, I wanted to base the operation on Skybus with a whole different marketing strategy but was overruled.... so sadly I left!

I may have been right or I may have been wrong but the one thing about Air Wales is the owner was the most honourable gentleman you could ever wish to meet and the whole team a joy to work with.

Maybe another niche carrier could "work" as is the modern term but a national airline based on European and Transatlantic routes for me anyway is a non starter.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Whatever happened to flyforbeans? :)

[GROUNDHOG]

Something to do with toast Harry!:eek:

[PDXCWL45]

I believe that the Welsh government has the goal of getting transatlantic routes whether it'll happen is another question but guarenteed it won't be operated by a national airline for Wales.

[Unixman]

Welsh Government announced today that they are withdrawing funding for the Ynys Mon - Cardiff service with the loss of 7 jobs.

https://gov.wales/written-statement-future-ynys-mon-cardiff-public-service-obligation-pso-air-service?fbclid=IwAR1K6IV4xRd-Hmo58hyfMoAvfakUltQycjNQLNGAXGM6R3MAZV9WSJQh7TA

[Noxegon]

Back in the day I took an Air Wales flight from Dublin to Cardiff.

I booked it about seven or eight hours before departure, and I was the only person on the flight.

[WHBM]

I believe the flight from Valley, in Anglesey, to Cardiff, was arranged wholly around the desires of one Welsh Assembly member.

It would obviously have been far better run from Broughton, which is (just fractionally) in Wales, and close to the largest town in North Wales, which is Wrexham, rather than out on a far limb. It would even have had more catchment area if run out of Caernarvon airport.

Quite how it took 10 employees at the RAF base at Valley to handle the few scheduled services is a further question. What was the average load factor on the Eastern J41 ?

[Saabandthecity]

I believe the flight from Valley, in Anglesey, to Cardiff, was arranged wholly around the desires of one Welsh Assembly member.

It would obviously have been far better run from Broughton, which is (just fractionally) in Wales, and close to the largest town in North Wales, which is Wrexham, rather than out on a far limb. It would even have had more catchment area if run out of Caernarvon airport.

Quite how it took 10 employees at the RAF base at Valley to handle the few scheduled services is a further question. What was the average load factor on the Eastern J41 ?

Load factors were nigh on 100% on each flight. Baring in mind the flight was limited to 19 seats and a max take off weight of 10 ton. JG had initially been reconfigured to 19 seats to negate the need of a cabin crew member, however, this caused issues with fleet rotation and so was reverted back to standard 29 seats.

The problem for the flight was that the public were paying just £19 one way and the Welsh assembly paying the rest. Meaning the flight would never be commercially viable without total subsidy.