To CFS or not?

[Lowkey]

A colleague who was at PMA has suggested that CFS is a way of getting experienced co-pilots competitive for promotion earlier. The alternative for an individual is waiting for a Captains slot to become available. Has anyone grounds to violently agree or disagree with this opinion?

[Bassett]

Low Key

PMA always spin that line as they are desparate for QFIs. I personally believe that our co's should do a capts tour first and then decide.

In my experience, those that go to CFS eventually come back to the fleet and find themselves at least a good operational tour behind their mates. Even worse they then get boxed in to an FI job, which means lots of time in the sim these days. As far as the promotion carrot is concerned, it depends if you are a flyer or prospective management. Anyway, most flt cdr jobs require you to have done some kind of capts tour, even if just for the cred.

[sycamore]

Keep the CFS option on the back -burner and play it when you need to get off the hook,when a ground tour is in the wind.Remember ,it`s always ..promises,promises,but,no engagement ring with PMA,no matter how well you might know your desk officer;..unless you want to play with animals and children!!:p

[BEagle]

Until you are an A2, you are not an 'Above the Average' instructor. So how can you be assessed as 'above the average' in the air- and hence attract the attention of promotion boards - whilst you are a B2 or B1 QFI?

That said, my advice would be to put in the maximum effort as a co-piglet. Too many think that they will 'naturally' be awarded captaincy without any particular effort on their behalf, but this is not necessarily the case nowadays. But if they do go to CFS, what are their posting options? A UAS probably - but many of those (particularly in the South) are now staffed by FTRS elders leaving few slots for newcomers.

[EESDL]

Suggest that you 'get some time in' (in the nicest possible way)
Fill your boots full of op hours/experience, plenty going around at the mo!
As already suggested - street cred is a must if you're going to be taken seriously as a Flt Cdr.
Then again, if you're a back-stabbing **** licker, what's the point of wasting your time flying when you could be on the ground currying favour with you ROs:-)
Don't know you so can't comment on your best route.........
PS. Desk Officers are brill and all deserve a medal! (well, they found me a flying tour away from the immediate affects of Pres Bliar's quest for a Nobel Peace Prize)

[RoboAlbert]

Career wise its the worst possible move you could make - well except for s******G the Stn Cdrs dog at happy hour.
Many of us have a letter from our then AoC admitting that a Co's tour followed by a CFS tour damaged our career prospect. Mind you he said not to worry cos it only effected those who where from a multi background and had gone Co to CFS - sadly this included about about 70% of his blokes!
PMA would like QFIs at the moment but stick to your guns and go for that left hand seat.:cool:

[Lowkey]

Thank you for all answers so far. Let me expand a bit more now, same situation but an individual was forced to move from one aircraft type to another due to medical problems. Individual was captain on previous aircraft types (so thank you EESDL the individual has got rather a lot of time in already), do you all still agree with the fact that CFS would not be a suitable path to promotion despite the long waiting list for a left hand seat.

[2 TWU]

Afraid you're wrong Beagle, people do get promoted when B1s or even B2s. When I was a QFI many years ago, I was among the people picked up as a B1. I understand that at Linton right now there is at least one guy (non A2) and possibly another who are in the frame--depends how well you did on your last tour I presume.

[Broken Wings]

From my 23 years experience in the RAF if you want to fly and get a qualification that is recognised around the world then go to CFS and get your A2. If you want to get promoted (particularly in the ME world) stay on the same station as long as possible, get into the LHS, get into the right clique and do stacks of secondary duties.

[Audax]

Going through CFS from a co's tour can be a good thing or a bad thing, it entirely depends on the individual, what he/she has done and is capable of doing. I have to say that the same applies to pilots from any background and ex-co's are just as worthy of promotion or not from/during a QFI tour as any other individual.

Some years ago, I was on the CFS staff (when CFS was Centralised and not a lot of disparrate flights) and saw both sides of the coin. Good guys got on well at whatever FTS/UAS they ended up on, others didn't; that's life.

A cautionary tale, sad but true. At one stage we had a lot of ex-cos from a certain fleet coming through and the majority were not very good. After a while, the Boss and the Flt Cdrs went to talk with the wheels at the appropriate base to find out what was going one. Enentually, in the bar after several beers, one of the station wheels let slip what was happening; co's coming up to the end of their tour were being delibrately being written up as good potential QFIs as they were not in the running for a captaincy after one tour.

[apfds]

As one who went through CFS after a co's tour on V- bombers and then went into civil flying, I found it the best qualification one could ever have for promotion in airlines

[yukan fucov]

..... its an impossible call. The QFI ticket is an invaluable feather in your cap.

My advice, take what you can at the time. It maynot be perfect timing but at least its your choice. (6mths from now same PMA calls with 'ground-job')

In a perfect world, the Capt tour before QFI is really what we all joined for, but sometimes the dream aint perfect.

Wherever you go you'll enjoy the hell out of it...... if you made the choice.


yukan fucov


..... could be worse, you could fly FJ! :p

[BEagle]

.....and then someone will change the rules and make you a 'QFI' without you having to have passed CFS in the traditional manner! So that they can attempt to persuade you that a posting to Valley isn't too bad as you can pretend that your Qualified Gash Shag status as a 'Tactics Instructor' somehow has similar status to that of a QFI.....

[RoboAlbert]

Well all I can say is that my previous man at PMA said that he felt that a QFI tour after a Co's tour had, and I quote (hence the quotation marks) 'damaged peoples careers' - and he'd written a paper to that effect. I guess he might know. However, I know they are very keen to fill QFI slots at the moment so the advice coming out from PMA may differ now.
I also think it may well be the case that you can't get promoted without being above average as an ac captain so all those High/spec Recs you get as a QFI count for nothing until you've gone back to the front line and worked your way back to an above average assessment (Same deal if you change ac types). Probably knocks you back 3-4 years on average.

All very equitable.:D

[Audax]

BEagle. In the Linton thread you were noted as insulting the Linton QFIs; now in this thread you are rude about half the QFIs at Valley.

What is it with you that you have to have this attitude, these guys are just doing their job and it doesn't really matter what they are called.

I would love to know what gives you the right to say such things about fellow aircrew. Have you been a TI? Have you been a Basic Fast Jet QFI? Have you been a basic QFI? Have you been on the CFS staff? Have you been on a fast jet OCU staff? Where did you spend your time in the fast jet world? etc etc. Everyone is entitled to their own view but please refrain from chucking brickbats at other aircrew. Pray enlighten me on your qualifications to be scathing about other groups of aircrew.

[BEagle]

QFIs teach students how to fly. We used to have a centre of excellence known as the Central Flying School which taught QFIs how to teach pure flying skills.

But then It Was Decided that a new spin was to be placed upon this. No-one wanted to go to Valley as they wouldn't 'get a useful qualification' as a TI - and they didn't want to be what was scathingly termed a 'trimmer'. So Senior People changed the rules.....to get themselves out of a hole. Not my words - but those of senior Qualified FLYING instructors of the CFS Exam Wg.

Incidentally, try teaching people who have NEVER been through ANY aptitude testing......

[FJJP]

Lowkey - need more onfo to give you a sensible answer. Age? 1st tourist? If not, previous experience?

All matter when pondering the problem - it's not only about promotion, but also about future employability.

FJJP

[teeteringhead]

BEags

you should try reroling one more time ..... to rotary! CFS (H) is STILL a centre of excellence, it's all in one place, teaches all 3 services (F&Cs too) to EXACTLY the same syllabus and standards and takes pride in teaching HOW to teach and not WHAT to teach.

Damn' fine parties too ...........................;)

[BEagle]

teeteringhead - you are absolutely right about CFS(H)! Fortunately there are still some standards which seem to have remained inviolate!

The way things are going in HMFC, I'm beginning to check my pins...........

[kippermate]

You don't get a CFS recommend from Ice Station Kilo unless you are a captain. So the co-pilot QFI tick does not become an option!

[Audax]

BEagle.

Your last but one post seems to say, somewhat obscurely, that the apellation QFI should only apply to someone who teaches basic stick and rudder. So, accepting that BFJTS QFIs still fulfill that role, anything beyond that is not taught by a QFI.

So, all Valley, Cranwell, OCU and Sqn QFIs don't qualify for the qfi symbol?

Your point about teaching studes who have not undergone apptitude training will not be lost on UAS QFIs in days gone past; hudreds have done it.

And, I too have been "a senior CFS QFI"

[BEagle]

QFIs - graduates of CFS who teach and examine pure flying. "SHT, LAI, WIGYC" and other incantations are their mantra.

QWIs - graduates of QWI courses who teach and assess weaponeering......and spend endless hours in the cine room trying to prove that you were out of range...'ride up, early pickle' and other strange phraseology are frequently uttered whilst the projector is set to 1 frame per week clack-clack-clack mode.

TIs - help out with additional tactical work. They hold no formal 'qualification', except relevant front line experience. Many will become QWIs when they've earned appropriate recommendation. Until then it's "I've told you how to do it, I've shown you how to do it, I can do it - why can't you" and "Kick the tyres, brief on Guard. Move the shineys, leave the rusties, light the fires. Last one off's a poof" and other 'well 'ard' pseudo instruction......whilst they have a huge hoot enjoying themselves and giving encouragement of the 'see - anyone can do it' kind to the students! Who in turn think that they're great mates as they don't beast them to death with GH or Cine duals....

That's what used to happen. His verbis dictis autem, O audax (said he in the vocative), tell me why things needed to change?

[Firestreak]

Ah, the BEagle has landed, one small step etc etc.

Bit like Dr Who really, hurtles over the horizon on the magic soapbox and then takes on all the nasties, in this case the TIs and QWIs after having had a go at the QFIs. Why try to demean the role of theses guys, did you suffer at their hands during your flirtation with fast jets?

[BEagle]

Not at all, mate. The staff at the time I went through TWU were really good guys. But the QFIs did the QFI-ing, the QWIs did the QWI-ing and the TIs did the rest. No-one pretended they were a 'Q' anything unless they were!

Some refused to be termed 'QWI' - prefering instead their original titles such as PAI, IWI etc.

And if we got a hard time, it was only when we needed it! From which we all gained plenty.

But for a real bunch of big-headed bigots who frankly hated their students, you had to look no further than a certain bomber OCU near Bury St Edmunds in the mid 70s.................

[Flatus Veteranus]

BEagle

Was "Fangs" the staish at your bomber OCU near Bury? Was he your nemesis? If so, my entire sympathy. He screwed many a good lad! He was my boss in a staff job and luckily my face fitted - pure luck. He used to make his mind up in a few minutes' initial interview; and if you did not impress you were irretrievably in the dwang.

[BEagle]

Initials were JN. At our course arrival chat he stomped into the building in an immersion suit and scowled at us. "Most of you won't pass this course" were his first few words........

Rumour hath it that, not many years later (in fact only a few more than 9 after a bomber det. to Red Flag), an American woman turned up at his quarter. "I think this is yours" she said - indicating the squealing brat she had in tow.

Never heard what happened to the nasty bug.ger after that!

[2 TWU]

But BEagle, you still haven't explained why you feel the need to knock other aircrew and their roles: no one else on these threads acts like this. Heaven knows we've all suffered over the years from being messed around by the truckie system but no one feels the need to carp on about it.

As for QWIs & TIs, I suspect I've spent a lot more time at the TWUs than youself and people always used the title of their qualification and generally were proud to do so. There are of course other TIs in the system than just the TWU instructors, have you seen that some of these are more than happy to wear a badge proclaiming their qualification?

[BEagle]

Not knocking any other aircrew, chum. Some teasing banter now and again, perhaps.... But nothing directly derogatory aimed at brother aircrew - if anything was perceived as such, then sorry - not intended. Unless you're one of those ex-bomber OCU ba$tards about whom I wrote!

Oops, sorry. Should have said brother/sister aircrew. As well as those who aren't sure - or don't care.....

[Tartan Stazi]

:eek:

Being Rear seat qual (P Con) on the Fin and doing 3 weeks CFS groundschool followed by 3 check rides gets you B2 QFI now. Being a QWI + the above makes you an automatic B1 !!

[BEagle]

TS - why has this come about? Surely there must be sufficient CFS graduates in your fleet to meet OCU requirements?

Other fleets have 'FIs'- those who have been appointed to flying instructional duties without having been to CFS. This is only done if there aren't enough ex-something else QFIs to fill the post - so why not just refer to your Tornado instructors as FIs?

As for 'autonatic B1'.........

Incidentally, nothing to do with this but beware of describing yourself as something you are not. Some years ago a pilot was an ex-QFI and had also been graded as Above the Average in his ACR. He therefore elected to describe himself to the CAA as an A2 QFI. They checked - and found the truth. He was then reminded about the small print and the fact that he could face a large fine and even imprisonment......fortunately for him as he was still in the mob a thermonuclear bollocking was all he received!

[Tartan Stazi]

B Eagle

Sadly we are short of QFIs, very few FJ pilots are returning from valley, it seems to be a gateway to the outside world.

As for your second point, I certainly have never claimed to be a QFI, but am a QWI.:D

[EESDL]

Low Key
Like FJJP says, give us more info then we may, perhaps, DAB lager allowing, offer some pertinent advice rather than the all encompassing bo77acks that is often read!

It's common knowledge that changing roles damages your chances (regardless of experience etc). Kept my head down during my last 2 tours but witnessed such in-breeding and crass promotions (colleagues will know which ones I mean!) that a move was not soon enough as I find it difficult to take such superiors seriously!
Unfortunately, with all the PFI'ing and 'out-sourcing', the choice is rather restricted.
In that light, CFS was a damn fine choice and am really looking forward to it.........especially if British Wast-a-space get the training PFI and need tandem-seat-turbo-prop instructors!!!