Perth to London

[Capt Fathom]

First flight Sat 24th!
So who is the brave crew taking on the first service?
Lots of empty seats to ensure they make London, or are Qantas backing themselves with this one?

[1a sound asleep]

Spare crew ready in FRA just in case the oily rag starts to sniff

[Big M]

Plus a spare airframe in Perth before departure - "just in case". I.E 50% of the fleet avail for this departure

[Berealgetreal]

Unreal, good stuff.

[What The]

Game Changer

What a wank

[Ozgrade3]

What The...I'm glad i don't work with you, you sound like you are real fun to be around.

It is a game changer, it is historic. It's as historic as the double sunrise Catalina flights. First scheduled RPT direct flight between the colonies and the motherland.

Soon, Sydney to London. Now that will be an historic occasion.

9 months on HMS Bark Endeavour, is transformed to 22 hrs on VH-XXX.

Human endeavor at it's best, even the most miserable have to acknowledge that.

[PoppaJo]

How are they getting the Economy pax of at the other end? Wheelchairs? Stretchers or something?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Yeah but QF is about 8 years behind with the 787 and they only are getting 8....

[Berealgetreal]

Better late than never. Even makes Perth look like a half decent place to live. Lol, just kidding!

[aviation_enthus]

Well done to QF for trying something different to Europe/UK. If it works, may mean more destinations ex Perth.

However the amount of noise/marketing about ‘game changing’ ‘long flight’ blah blah blah, you’d think Qantas were the only airline flying that distance!!! Plenty of other airlines fly that far or further...

[Qantas 787]

Yes flying OZ to Europe direvt is historic but all the other stuff is.just over the top rubbish. It isnt the worlds longest flight. The fact they have a standby 787 ready to go is laughable....the aircraft has been flying for 3 weeks, it hasnt just arrived.

I wonder how many people are actually paying to be on the flight considering the media, airline execs, corporate comms and others.....

I do feel for the punters stuck in Y

[ruprecht]

It’s a fuel efficient 767.

[Berealgetreal]

Well done to QF for trying something different to Europe/UK. If it works, may mean more destinations ex Perth.

However the amount of noise/marketing about ‘game changing’ ‘long flight’ blah blah blah, you’d think Qantas were the only airline flying that distance!!! Plenty of other airlines fly that far or further...

That’s the Australian way though. Look in the media it’s “worlds best this worlds best that”.

[pax britanica]

I know the Aussie press do go over the top on such Aussie 'firsts' but thats only because they live in a country no one has any interest in.

However it is a signifcant step ona historic route so deserves some coverage.
If its not the longest flight what is -Delhi-NY or DXB to Buenos Aires?

[What The]

Ozgrade 3

I am pretty sure you sound like a few of the greasy pole climbing suckhole wannabe management corridor creepers I work with.

[Boe787]

It is Historic, but the over the top hype has cheapened the event i my opinion.

[Cremeegg]

PER - LHR = 9010 Statute Miles
DXB - EZE = 8498 Statute Miles
AKL - DOH = 9032 Statute Miles which is I believe currently the longest flight by distance until Singapore resume SIN - JFK at 9537 Statute Miles.

Standing by to be corrected

[ANCDU]

I was thinking the coverage was over the top but I unfortunately think the coverage is needed. As an airline we just don’t stand out from the crowd anymore. The generation that used to prefer to fly Qantas because it was Qantas (its national pride, service, network and safety) are disappearing, and the brand means nothing to the newer generations who either look online for a cheaper airfare or who culturally have no ties to an Australian brand.

Qantas needs to reinvent itself to the Australian public, and get back to being a proud progressive airline, not a social commentator. I sincerely hope for the future of our newest recruits that this route and the opportunities it may open up will be a reason for the board to approve more of these desperately needed aircraft and more routes.

[4EvahLearning]

One captain identified at least. I'm not allowed to post URLs yet but Perthnow.com.au has Captain Lisa Norman as PIC of the first flight.

[IsDon]

I know the Aussie press do go over the top on such Aussie 'firsts' but thats only because they live in a country no one has any interest in.


Apart from the huge number of whinging poms who now live here. Please take them back.

[Keg]

Lisa Norman, Jeff Foote, Dave Summergreene, Troy Lane. Info was posted on a Daily Tele article. Behind a paywall but I think I read it via Facebook?

[megan]

Captain Lisa Norman as PICFO named as David Summergreene, obviously others unnamed - augmented crew. Worlds current second longest flight at 14,498km, longest Qatar Doha - Auckland 14,539. Don't you chaps read the papers?

[Keg]

I suspect the route flown will actually be longer than Doha- AKL due to the air routes over the ME/ Europe that QF must fly. Doha- AKL is mostly great circle direct tracking with a bit of weather pattern contour flying thrown in.

Here is the link to the Daily Tele article. (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwif1o3g44PaAhUCKZQKHV3QBbAQFggwMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailytelegraph.com.au%2Ftravel%2Fworld %2Ffirst-direct-qantas-flight-between-australia-and-europe-set-for-takeoff-from-perth-on-saturday%2Fnews-story%2F604aed67614fd2e304cf1ab6a3df1ee8&usg=AOvVaw0znOz8QzQmUCw42JDZrPKi) May need to google it to get by the paywall.

[ExtraShot]

. I sincerely hope for the future of our newest recruits that this route and the opportunities it may open up will be a reason for the board to approve more of these desperately needed aircraft and more routes.

Indeed.

I’m no fan of the current management, but it’s great to see something new and exciting being attempted. That being the case, why not get a bit of a publicity ‘rub’ out of the old genie lamp? If successful, it should lead to other new developments and growth (we hope). That’s one of the big ticket items we all want to see, a growing company that’s popular with the Public again. It would be in many of our best interest for this to succeed.

Good luck to the crew. May you prove the doubters wrong.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Good luck to the crew. May you prove the doubters wrong.
What difference will the crew make? Obviously the flight is achievable, and the aircraft is capable, or it would not be a scheduled service. They are hardly climbing on board with a bible, a bag of spanners and spares, and a bit of hope they make it.

[Rated De]

That’s the Australian way though. Look in the media it’s “worlds best this worlds best that”.Home market myopia is the term.
The aircraft has already 'changed the game' with LN 615 representing Qantas' (not JQ) first.

With advertising spend from Qantas reducing the red ink in the print media, do not be surprised that this is pumped as was the delivery.. Advertising buys a lot of 'reporting'

Those that may actually be interested in the reason for it (Perth London) is that the 'game changing' or was it 'world changing' alliance signed with EK contained the provision that all Qantas aircraft operating to Europe would hub through Dubai.

Fortunately Mr Joyce never got his 10 year alliance, and had to settle for five, otherwise Perth London was the only way a Qantas passenger could avoid the UAE.

If one wants to look at the stroke of genius that Mr Joyce signed:



Qantas Operating revenue did not change at all during the five year alliance from 1 April 2013 (in real terms it declined)
A continued loss of patronage from Qantas flights.


Mr Joyce was always careful to avoid any mention of purported financial benefit from the alliance as there was ZERO (at least for Qantas)

There has been plenty of division in the upper levels of QF management on the EK alliance, sadly whilst Mr Joyce held the big seat, and the alliance as signed persisted, there was little they could do.

This is the reason why the 787 is a bit stretched doing the route; it was the only way out of the restrictive terms that Mr Joyce sentenced Qantas to...

[*Lancer*]

Rated De,

If the QF/EK partnership is so bad, then explain the reasons for it's renewal (with no QF flights to DXB).

While some might scoff at the media frenzy today, not that long ago there were complaints about the lack of attention in the face of a growing Jetstar. The public don't care if the aircraft is years old, nor do the Qantas pilots lucky enough to transfer onto something new. It's about time we had a good Qantas news story, and I certainly hope this new PER-LHR service is the great success needed to encourage more CAPEX and growth for mainline.

[Ken Borough]

Does anyone know why the new service starts on the last day of Northern Winter instead of the first day of the Northern Summer scheduling period?

[ZFT]

How are they getting the Economy pax of at the other end? Wheelchairs? Stretchers or something?

Having experienced 18+ hour sectors in C class, I dread to think. It's not just the seats but the (understandable) attitude of the CC, the inevitable loss of functional toilets and the utter boredom.

These days I will do anything to avoid ULH flights

[Rated De]

If the QF/EK partnership is so bad, then explain the reasons for it's renewal (with no QF flights to DXB).Clearly the framing narrative in September 2012 has now changed: Qantas international is no longer 'terminal'. Having impaired the Qantas fleet in a case of interesting timing, disaster was averted to the tune of $326 million in depreciation. This formed the basis of the 'transformation' the other $597 million courtesy of falling fuel prices.

The possible upside for a continuance of the alliance, given the ACCC's original summation that there would be material but not substantial benefits to the consumer COULD be that this is to continue with an extension. Having surrendered European presence other than the two flights daily to London, the EK 'alliance' bringing likely negligible revenue to Qantas, it would still provide valuable feed into the domestic network, thereby protecting what was always seen by insiders as the jewel; Qantas domestic.

Given statements made to the ACCC for the Alliance's formation (By Qantas) it is now very clear and supported by financial and government data that any tangible economic benefit was captured by Emirates. As was stated earlier, fortunately Mr Joyce didn't get the ten years he wanted.

[*Lancer*]

Rated De,

the EK 'alliance' bringing likely negligible revenue to Qantas, it would still provide valuable feed into the domestic network, thereby protecting what was always seen by insiders as the jewel; Qantas domestic.

So is it "likely negligible revenue", or does it "provide valuable feed into the domestic network"?

As was stated earlier, fortunately Mr Joyce didn't get the ten years he wanted.

The QF-EK partnership has already been approved for another 5 years. I would argue that Qantas wouldn't have bothered if there was no benefit.

[Capn Bloggs]

So is it "likely negligible revenue", or does it "provide valuable feed into the domestic network"?

It is obvious to me that Rated De is referring to the international revenue being negligible.

[Bend alot]

Will this be a "light" flight?


Will there be a large number of females?


Are the selected non payers on short turn around with basic carry on luggage?


Will carry on luggage be strictly weighed by all travellers?


Are there any other paper work savings being employed to be able to add on extra fuel without breaking the max take off paperwork figure?


Anyone care to guess when the high work load in the cockpit will be as far as a pit stop being required or not?

But I do expect this to be a light load with extra gas for the first flight or 2.

[Rated De]

So is it "likely negligible revenue", or does it "provide valuable feed into the domestic network"?The feed may be numbers of passengers, however what is evident is that whatever the Operating Cost reduction from withdrawing from Europe, the corresponding Operating Revenue reduction was at largely the same magnitude. Any code share revenue which Qantas claim 'commercial in confidence' was negligible. The improvement ought have shown up in the Total Revenue, no matter to which revenue line it is assigned. It doesn't

The financial statements are there, you can access them and deflate the Operating Revenue(Total)yourself.

As is all the ACCC documentation, and indeed BITRE data. Qantas lost many hundreds of thousands of passengers abandoning Europe via Hong Kong, Singapore and Bangkok.


The Frequent Flyer business other than a marketing and database for sale requires a tangible International Network. Australian Qantas FF members were not so enthused swapping points for groceries; so Qantas needed to be careful in that the did not signal complete withdrawal from Europe.

[Capn Bloggs]

Looking at Windy.com, apart from just off the coast of WA, there's no wind for most of the way. She'll make it no probs. :ok:

[Keg]

7.4 ton over the top. Will do it easy.

[Capn Bloggs]

7.4t?! Might get a letter from the fleet manager (is that s/he's called in QF?)! Oh wait... :)

[TurningFinalRWY36]

flight time from the flight plan?

[Chad Gates]

Flying time is 17:07

[Capt Fathom]

7.4 ton over the top. Will do it easy.
Yeah right, that’s the plan.
Interesting to find out what it turns out to be!
Real world bares no resemblance to the computed world!

[TurningFinalRWY36]

assuming this is a good wind day a bad one would bring the flight time to ~18hrs I guess. 787 should be able to do it assuming it gets its levels etc. Wouldnt catch me in economy for that long though

[Capn Bloggs]

My ears may have been deceiving me, but I'm sure the effo just asked Departures for "Direct Heathrow"!

They got SWAGY instead.

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[mmurray]

I'm waiting for SpaceX BFR. Anywhere to anywhere in less than an hour.

[-JLS-]

I noticed they also flew ZNB over to Perth as QF777 about an hour ahead of the inbound QF9. Would this have been a bit of 'insurance' that the inaugural flight would get out on time?

[cattletruck]

DVT Express.

Sitting down for 17+ hours is quite a challenge (don't forget they've probably also been sitting down for over an hour at the terminal) - will everyone be getting up for a leg stretch?

Besides the issue of the toilets clogging, becoming occupied for long periods of time, running out of water (has happened to us a couple of times on LH), all it will take is some expert to say that sitting down for so long is considered unhealthy and the opportunists among the pax will follow through with law suits for compensation (i.e free trip).

Can't stand LH flights as I get older unless the plane is half empty, but what an expensive luxury that is.

[TURIN]

Shame they will have to circle for an hour at LHR..

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA9/10d05b84

ETA 0306hrs. :rolleyes:

[Capn Bloggs]

Oh, and another thing. Good to actually a see a white rat on a big tail heading west. Stood out like dog's balls in the dark. Might be the LEDs...

[601]

It is a game changer, it is historic. It's as historic as the double sunrise Catalina flights. First scheduled RPT direct flight between the colonies and the motherland.

Won't be a game changer unless it has an App.

[maggot]

Flying time is 17:07

Crikey, shorter than some DFW-SYDs I've done

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Crikey, shorter than some DFW-SYDs I've done
So whats the big deal then haha, ULH is horrific as pax and crew

[AerialPerspective]

Yes flying OZ to Europe direvt is historic but all the other stuff is.just over the top rubbish. It isnt the worlds longest flight. The fact they have a standby 787 ready to go is laughable....the aircraft has been flying for 3 weeks, it hasnt just arrived.

I wonder how many people are actually paying to be on the flight considering the media, airline execs, corporate comms and others.....

I do feel for the punters stuck in Y
... and it being the first service if they didn't have a back up aircraft people like you would be complaining if it didn't depart because there was a maintenance issue... Pan Am had another 747-121 available which they ended up using for the first service.
Yes, others have operated the 787 for years but they haven't operated it from PER to LHR direct.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Because they want to have more than 230 seats :}

[Another Number]

I think the timing of the carefully planned first flight will have the desired effect of heaps of pre-flight headlines of "(Almost) World's Longest Duration" morphing into post-flight "Direct to LHR in under 16 hours!"*



*Unless the giant head of GT adds too much drag.**


**AJ "Too much drag is never a problem..."

[*Lancer*]

Flying incrementally further ULH is nothing new, but I’ve never seen so much negativity about a new route!!

Good on QF, hope it goes well :ok:

[WHBM]

Shame they will have to circle for an hour at LHR..

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA9/10d05b84

ETA 0306hrs. :rolleyes:
Now estimating 0246.


Guess they have taken account of European clocks going forward 1 hour tomorrow morning, but still Heathrow does not allow inbounds before 0430 local (it will be 0330 UTC by then).


Hello Lambourne.

[Guptar]

Route
DCT AVNEX DCT POKIP DCT SWAGY DCT VERIS/M084F360 DCT SAKAB DCT EPGUP DCT 1036S09933E DCT MUTMI N509 ELATI/N0494F360 N640 HE/N0485F380 N640 CL DCT KAT DCT CI/M084F380 P570 KITAL/N0490F380 P570 MIXAM P574 GIVKO/N0484F390 R401 OIIX/N0480F400 M317 ROTAL UP574 SYZ UT430 VUVAG UL333 DASIS/N0485F400 UR660 ERZ UW704 CRM UL746 EVGEG/N0493F400 UL746 ODERO L746 NEPOT L851 DEGET DCT ABETI 4832N01344E/N0485F400 DCT RENKA UL610 LAMLA/N0485F400 UL610 BATTY UL608 SUMUM L608 LOGAN

This is the plan from Flight Aware

Some questions

They have planned M.084 is that slightly slower than normal cruise...maybe LRC? Are they running a very low Cost Index number for this flight.

At -> OIIX/N0485F400.......why knots rather than Mach number

Step climbs of 1000 foot steps seems like they have planned to be closer to optimum alt than the usual bracket technique, so why top out at F400 given the altitude capability of the aircraft. Winds above F400?

How do the flight following programs know the position /speed of aircraft far out to sea, I didn't think ADS-B satellite was running yet.

Interesting to watch this flight, they seem to be very close to the Great Circle track and abeam Singapore (north of coccus) they have picked up about 20-30 kts on the tail if 485 kts is right.

[Loopa12]

Flightradar24 showing ETA 0244. Is that too early for EGLL?
Or is the plan to put the brakes on the further north they get?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

why is the eta coming back so far? too many directs?

[wiggy]

Flightradar24 showing ETA 0244. Is that too early for EGLL?

As has been said aside from one or two niche exceptions the night slot earliest landing into LHR is 0430 local = 0330Z Sunday AM due clocks changing this weekend.

[WHBM]

If their last routing point is LOGAN (alias Clacton) and Heathrow is on westerlies (forecast to change round to this overnight - just) then they should be passing right overhead Chateau WHBM on approach.

Too dark for a photo, but I'll set the alarm.

[Jetsbest]

Now showing 0500BST (10 minutes early) on Flightaware. So far so good...

[Dee Vee]

Such a long flight, they are barely past the UAE, still another 7 hours to go :(

I see they are currently flying over Iran, will that be their normal flight path??

[maggot]

So whats the big deal then haha, ULH is horrific as pax and crew

I dunno, always pretty happy punter on that one, crew mostly too.
Go figure eh

[Fris B. Fairing]

To give some historical perspective to this 17 hour flight, IIRC the wartime Catalinas that operated the Double Sunrise flights did not have single engine performance for the first 16 hours.

[C441]

I see they are currently flying over Iran, will that be their normal flight path??

Probably whilst Iran remains domestically reasonably stable and internationally acceptable.

Expect Perth to more or less overhead Dubai and then the same route 99% of the QF1 & 9 services have been using since the Iraqi airspace closed.

[jetlikespeeds]

To give some historical perspective to this 17 hour flight, IIRC the wartime Catalinas that operated the Double Sunrise flights did not have single engine performance for the first 16 hours.

And they probably didn’t have to worry about offending anyone by calling them a man or woman either!

[Capn Rex Havoc]

EK are over flying Iraq airspace again.

[Capn Bloggs]

DCT AVNEX DCT POKIP DCT SWAGY DCT VERIS/M084F360 DCT SAKAB DCT EPGUP DCT 1036S09933E DCT MUTMI N509 ELATI/N0494F360 N640 HE/N0485F380 N640 CL DCT KAT DCT CI/M084F380 P570 KITAL/N0490F380 P570 MIXAM P574 GIVKO/N0484F390 R401 OIIX/N0480F400 M317 ROTAL UP574 SYZ UT430 VUVAG UL333 DASIS/N0485F400 UR660 ERZ UW704 CRM UL746 EVGEG/N0493F400 UL746 ODERO L746 NEPOT L851 DEGET DCT ABETI 4832N01344E/N0485F400 DCT RENKA UL610 LAMLA/N0485F400 UL610 BATTY UL608 SUMUM L608 LOGAN
Did the effo sign-on 2 hours before the skipper to put all those winds in?? :{

[Jetsbest]

Did the effo sign-on 2 hours before the skipper to put all those winds in?? :{
ACARS wind uplinks for four levels at every waypoint in seconds...😂👍😉

[Contact Approach]

How strict is the 0430L rule? Perhaps they’ve made this an exception?

[TURIN]

Why are some people writing effo? What's wrong with FO?

[Capn Bloggs]

ACARS wind uplinks for four levels at every waypoint in seconds...😂👍😉
Where do I sign up for that?! http://www.smilies.our-local.co.uk/index_files/fingerscrossed2.gif

[Capn Bloggs]

It's 0237 in London now and it'll get there in 2:16, according to FR24. Should be OK for 0430 then...

[TURIN]

I'm waiting for SpaceX BFR. Anywhere to anywhere in less than an hour.

We all thought LHR to SYD would be an eight hour trip by now, post Concorde. I do hope Musk delivers on his promise but I won't hold my breath.

[TURIN]

It's 0237 in London now and it'll get there in 2:16, according to FR24. Should be OK for 0430 then...

Now showing ETA 0352z. Its late. :ouch:

[RealityCzech]

Rated De,

If the QF/EK partnership is so bad, then explain the reasons for it's renewal (with no QF flights to DXB).

While some might scoff at the media frenzy today, not that long ago there were complaints about the lack of attention in the face of a growing Jetstar. The public don't care if the aircraft is years old, nor do the Qantas pilots lucky enough to transfer onto something new. It's about time we had a good Qantas news story, and I certainly hope this new PER-LHR service is the great success needed to encourage more CAPEX and growth for mainline.

You’ve hit the nail on the head there, Lancer. There are people who will complain and criticise no matter what Qantas management does. Any airline - any business - tries to make the most of new events and publicity opportunities. VAH wheel out Branson as often as possible for publicity. I don’t see the usual Qantas criticisers going after them for that

[Potsie Weber]

Watched the boarding hoo-ha live on the news, cooked and ate nice dinner, couple of wines, watched a movie, 8hrs sleep in my bed, shower, gym, lazy breakfast at cafe, mowed the lawn and now having a relaxing coffee on deck. And that flight still has 2hrs to go, I might even get to have lunch before arrival time.

I can only imagine how the crew feels at this time. Yuck!

[Another Number]

Poor AJ!

(Never thought I'd say that)

Will the UK media be going crazy when they arrive?

Damn right!

"Cheating bloody Aussies!" ... thanks Steve! :{

[Dee Vee]

Watched the boarding hoo-ha live on the news, cooked and ate nice dinner, couple of wines, watched a movie, 8hrs sleep in my bed, shower, gym, lazy breakfast at cafe, mowed the lawn and now having a relaxing coffee on deck. And that flight still has 2hrs to go, I might even get to have lunch before arrival time.

I can only imagine how the crew feels at this time. Yuck!

Pity the poor passengers departing Melbourne who actually boarded the first leg over 5.5 hours before it left Perth (after waiting up to 3 hours in the terminal at MEL from checkin!)

[Ken Borough]

Poor AJ!

(Never thought I'd say that)

Will the UK media be going crazy when they arrive?

Damn right!

"Cheating bloody Aussies!" ... thanks Steve!

I wonder if Qantas will terminate its sponsorship of a team led and managed by alleged cheats?

[mostlytossas]

I can only imagine the state of the WC's for the last few hours of the flight.

[Contact Approach]

I can’t imagine operating a flight for that amount of time. The crew must be frazzled.

[Popgun]

I can only imagine the state of the WC's for the last few hours of the flight.

I dare say there would have been significant pressure exerted for this inaugural flight to have everything in that department maintained to surgical theatre levels of hygiene for the entire 17 hours.

I have no doubt it will become an issue down the track once all the hoopla has died down and the level of scrutiny reduces.

Perhaps the Qantas Angels could whip up a campaign to get the loos stocked with PooPourri?!? LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLnhuzh9uY

PG :}

[RENURPP]

Poo Pourri won’t work in a long drop dunny (no water). 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩

[Another Number]

I wonder if Qantas will terminate its sponsorship of a team led and managed by alleged cheats?

They've admitted it! No alleged about it.

Interestingly, while the Aussies are wearing the flying kangaroo, the umpires "Fly Emirates".:D

[PoppaJo]

Should be on the ground in 25 mins. First arrival of the day.

[Contact Approach]

The descent has begun!

[The Sleeping Pax]

Should be on the ground in 25 mins. First arrival of the day. Hope they remembered that the Europeans put the clocks forward one hour overnight.

[Capt Fathom]

a team led and managed by alleged cheats?
That is no way to talk about Qantas Management! :E

[Fliegenmong]

Hmmm....17 hours QF Y class..(plus east coast connection maybe) ...you will not have slept..and now what? ....stay up all day?...what do you do until hotel check-in....yeah....no thanks...

[Another Number]

Job done.


And well done to all who deserve it! :D:ok:





(Now we cross back to Sydney for resumption of usual programming...)

[chickoroll]

17hrs and 3 minutes, I bet all the crew are shagged.

What is the rest period? Anyone in the know

[sdelarminat]

I think it has more to do with the milestone of connecting Australia to the UK non-stop.

There were several milestones in commercial aviation history, like the first Pacific crossing below the Antarctic circle, or the first non-stop East-West crossing of the US, etc etc. We know the time and distance is not the real issue, it's the simbolic significance of what has just ocurred.

...Now, I bet the pax and crew must be barely alive.

[sdelarminat]

17hrs and 3 minutes, I bet all the crew are shagged.

What is the rest period? Anyone in the know

150 crew and 150 pax?

[puff]

Even closer to home - UA101 HOU-SYD last week was 17hr 52min, also in their game changer 787-9 :)

[rjtjrt]

Is that all? United's 787-9 does LAX - SIN with 17 hours 45 minutes block time and have been doing it daily since the last 6 months. It's really no big deal. Pax are happy, the toilets are clean, people arrive in good shape to start the morning in Singapore. Really don't know what the fuss is all about. :rolleyes:

It is not about the flight statistics.
For some Australians it is an iconic travel connection. Fewer now feel this but many older Australians still have an historic connection to UK.
There is a book many of us were required to read at school - The Tyranny of Distance by Geoffrey Blainey.

[mmmbop]

Is that all? United's 787-9 does LAX - SIN with 17 hours 45 minutes block time and have been doing it daily since the last 6 months. It's really no big deal. Pax are happy, the toilets are clean, people arrive in good shape to start the morning in Singapore. Really don't know what the fuss is all about. :rolleyes:


Yeah, that North Pacific airspace throws in some real challenges with the density of aircraft trying to get FLs..............:rolleyes:

[ruprecht]

It is not about the flight statistics.
For some Australians it is an iconic travel connection. Fewer now feel this but many older Australians still have an historic connection to UK.

And Qantas is helping them out by halving the number of seats from Melbourne to London. :rolleyes:

Rumour is 2 A380s back in London by the end of the year.

[rjtjrt]

And Qantas is helping them out by halving the number of seats from Melbourne to London. :rolleyes:

Rumour is 2 A380s back in London by the end of the year.

Yes, and QANTAS under current management and Board have destroyed the iconic status this airline was once regarded by the Australian people.
Now sadly just another airline.

(Yes, I seem to like the word iconic!).

[4EvahLearning]

we know the crew who flew it there, who will fly it back and how many hours before the original crew flies again?

[4EvahLearning]

a passenger review from "Y". (still not allowed to posts url's)
h t t p s://www.perthnow.com.au/travel/perth-london-direct-qantas-flight-on-board-the-maiden-flight-ng-b88785243z

[donpizmeov]

Well done QF.

[Fliegenmong]

Ha ha....17hrs in QF economy and an article released so soon??......methinks perhaps written before it even left PER! ... :hmm:

Suspect Peter Beattie has a closing ceremony speech already written as well...no doubt "Best Commonwealth Games ever" will feature in it?? :hmm:

[ruprecht]

Ha ha....17hrs in QF economy and an article released so soon??......methinks perhaps written before it even left PER! ... :hmm:

I’m sure she had time to write it on the way.

[bekolblockage]

Does anyone know why the new service starts on the last day of Northern Winter instead of the first day of the Northern Summer scheduling period?

I suspect it’s the revised arrival slot at LHR on the first day of the Summer sched that drove it, not the Dep slot out of Perth the day before.

[Berealgetreal]

Get stuff.

Any word on what they might do out of SYD or MEL? Any direct to EU?

[Guptar]

Whinging about 17 hrs in economy. Back in the past, I'd travel to the UK 3 times a year to visit family. Work a full day in the office, jump on the burner in Sydney, land at LHR, jump in a hire car and drive to Newcastle in time or family dinner then clubbing in South Shields. The next morning was interesting, working out whos bed I was in and where the heck I was. Sigh, .........those were the days.

[Heathrow Harry]

Wonder what it smelt like on arrival??????????

[compressor stall]

Probably the same as the other flights that are as long or longer run by other airlines using similar aircraft .

[cessnapete]

Aircraft interior was fine. Routine flight for which the aircraft was designed. It seems to have escaped QF PR that scores of B787 have been in service with many airlines for some years, and a few flying similar sectors!

[Hudson Hawk]

Can anyone confirm the crew rest config for the QF 787? Is it the 1 seat, 2 bunk module which I believe is the standard option for the tech crew? Curious to know if they blocked another seat in the cabin for upright rest and which class of seat they used. I’ve been told that the 787 crew rest doesn’t meet ULH requirements (class 1 v 2 standards??) Cheers HH

[b1lanc]

Wonder what it smelt like on arrival??????????
Second sentence in this article sums that up.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/5894968/qantas-airlines-direct-flights-london-perth-australia-economy-class/

[Captain Nomad]

...and maybe this bit...

Like an archaeologist prizing open the sealed tomb of some long-dead Pharaoh, airport ground crew are often hit in the face by a primeval gust of rancid air when the plane door swings open following a long haul flight.

After nearly 18 hours, I’d imagine ours was enough to knock a couple of Heathrow’s bravest clean out.


:}

Bring on the Boom airliners of the future...

[esreverlluf]

Reminds me of this quote from Craig Nelson's "Rocket Men";

"The bravest man in the Apollo program was the Navy frogman who had to open the hatch of the recovered capsule after three guys had been shoehorned into it for a week."

[maggot]

Yeah well, ****. Qf has never done much Asia to London
Never over the Himalayas, Afghanistan, Iran, and all the other stans
crikey
:hmm:

[Ken Borough]

Maggot needs to be able to indicate 'heavy sarcasm' in his post. Where's the smilie?

[maggot]

Maggot needs to be able to indicate 'heavy sarcasm' in his post. Where's the smilie?

Haha better?
I thought it was dripping enough

[Ken Borough]

Some of the muppets will believe you! Many also forget that Qantas pioneered the art of long range flying and should read up on the flights of the double sunrise with Cats in WW2.

[ozziekiwi]

Bummer - can't see QF10 on FR24 but can see it on Flightaware - not that long to go now. Sometimes they drop off FR24 for no apparent reason ??

Cheers

[ozziekiwi]

Bummer - can't see QF10 on FR24 but can see it on Flightaware - not that long to go now. Sometimes they drop off FR24 for no apparent reason ??

Cheers

Ok it's just reappeared on FR24

Cheers

[donpizmeov]

There are some very precious little dears on this forum. The more new flights QF start the better it is for all of Australian aviation. More jobs, and they are needed.
To fly to the UK direct from one of the most isolated continents is a great achievement. Yes it would have been great if it was done years ago rather than spending all resources growing an LLC, but it has happened now. Let's hope there are lots more.

[WHBM]

There are some very precious little dears on this forum. The more new flights QF start the better it is for all of Australian aviation.
A fine sentiment, but if I am not mistaken this flight takes the place of a previous Qantas A380 into London (which is where the Heathrow slot comes from). Until now there were two A380s daily, both operating via Dubai. Now there is one such A380 and this one B787 via Perth. As the 787 is, roughly, half an A380, that's about a 25% reduction in Qantas availability, cabin crew opportunities, etc, to London.

[donpizmeov]

Was the other 380 grounded? Or was it, and crew sent somewhere else?

[ruprecht]

Was the other 380 grounded? Or was it, and crew sent somewhere else?

It now does MEL-SIN-MEL.

[procede]

I think this route is more a PR stunt than anything else. Add a stop in Dubai and you lose 1-2 hours, can double the payload, reduce the crew cost by half and take at least 25% off the fuel cost. Most people do not want to pay more than $100 extra to save an hour...

[Fris B. Fairing]

I think this route is more a PR stunt than anything else. Add a stop in Dubai and you lose 1-2 hours, can double the payload, reduce the crew cost by half and take at least 25% off the fuel cost. Most people do not want to pay more than $100 extra to save an hour...

Yes but they may be prepared to pay extra to avoid being exposed to another airport with all its agencies and their potential for spoiling one's day.

[clark y]

If travelling from east coast Oz, is the total time any longer with a transit in Dubai, Singapore, Bangkok etc?

[procede]

Yes but they may be prepared to pay extra to avoid being exposed to another airport with all its agencies and their potential for spoiling one's day.

We're talking Dubai here, not LaGuardia.

[WHBM]

It now does MEL-SIN-MEL.
Singapore return daily requires 1 aircraft. The London return daily A380 flight now discontinued required 2.5 aircraft.

Alan Joyce stated that Sydney nonstop would be achieved in 2022. Is that going to replace the other A380 flight with a 787 ?

[Fliegenmong]

Getting the other side now...lol

https://www.news-mail.com.au/news/sore-bums-and-boredom-what-that-qantas-flight-was-/3371093/

Mrs Fliegs & I now head to europe on AY with a CX code share and HKG stop.....have had to only once been made to fly QF since 'The Grounding'.....will not fly with them since the grounding if at all possible...never entertained heading through the ME....Sin or Hkg are so better placed...and jetstar is a simple 'no'...been there done it....won't do it again...ditto Scoot etc...

17 hrs in QF Economy??? 17 hrs in the dark??...Yeah...no thanks...I really enjoy that AY mid morning departure....it's novel....and arrives at a great time...

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

[/I]If travelling from east coast Oz, is the total time any longer with a transit in Dubai, Singapore, Bangkok etc?
Ex BNE it can be much of a muchness (but more options eg 22.5 SQ, 23.5 hrs EY, 24.5 EK vs 26.5 QF via PER). The stop is in the middle third, rather than at the end of 1st fifth.

[Bravohotel]

Without reading all the posts can anyone tell me what are the flight crew numbers on this flight PER-LHR ie Captains and FOs just interested regarding duty time on/off my mate tells me the Airline he works for is it 18 hours max from report to finish duty.

[busdriver007]

Without reading all the posts can anyone tell me what are the flight crew numbers on this flight PER-LHR ie Captains and FOs just interested regarding duty time on/off my mate tells me the Airline he works for is it 18 hours max from report to finish duty.

World's Best Practice would be two Captains and two First Officers on ULR ops but Qantas do it cheaper with one Captain, one First Officer and two Second Officers. The Agreement can be up to 19.50 and the CASA(Australian Regulator) has set a limit is 20 Hours. No room for any delay. I think this operation will last maximum 6 months and added services will be put on Hong Kong and/or Singapore.

[Rated De]

No room for any delay. I think this operation will last maximum 6 months and added services will be put on Hong Kong and/or Singapore.As we quietly postulated on another thread, wait until a Northern winter sees the aircraft supposedly entering a hold at LAM, BNN due a TEMPO.

The aircraft will not be able to, and already have diverted to who knows where as the crew hit the hard limit of 20 hours. Just how Qantas positions a crew and WHEN is a very interesting permutation.

Unfortunately for Qantas, CASA didn't grant a further exemption...

For the slot to be maintained Qantas will slide it to a token 'three times a week' sort of service, before quietly dropping it all together with the QF9 routing through Singapore.

Alan's random walk complete, from 400 JQ aircraft by 2020, Red Q, 'terminal declines and transformations', a game changing hub in DXB, only to abandon it five years later and head back through Singapore. Pure genius.


Oh and they still need a new fleet

[rog747]

As we quietly postulated on another thread, wait until a Northern winter sees the aircraft supposedly entering a hold at LAM, BNN due a TEMPO.

The aircraft will not be able to, and already have diverted to who knows where as the crew hit the hard limit of 20 hours. Just how Qantas positions a crew and WHEN is a very interesting permutation.

Unfortunately for Qantas, CASA didn't grant a further exemption...

For the slot to be maintained Qantas will slide it to a token 'three times a week' sort of service, before quietly dropping it all together with the QF9 routing through Singapore.

Alan's random walk complete, from 400 JQ aircraft by 2020, Red Q, 'terminal declines and transformations', a game changing hub in DXB, only to abandon it five years later and head back through Singapore. Pure genius.


Oh and they still need a new fleet

interesting and will QF go back to routing to UK in addition via SIN also go via BKK again or compete with BA (and MH) and a route via KUL???

[Half Baked]

Geez you lot are hard to please.

Record profits, new metal/carbon, new routes, shed loads of recruiting and training, promotions left right and centre etc etc...............

I really would hate to see it if things were going pear-shaped!

[Rated De]

interesting and will QF go back to routing to UK in addition via SIN also go via BKK again or compete with BA (and MH) and a route via KUL??? There was a very directed switch from Qantas to JQ, perhaps part of ideology and labour unit cost considerations, circumventing the legislatove restriction. We simply do not know. The problem with a low fare airline is that yield is difficult to find. One need only look at the ASK flown by JQ (48% of Qantas) yet they only generate 22% of the Revenue Qantas can generate. It is a high volume, low yield business and whilst having a role, not sure it was the solution to all ills.



Qantas lost a lot of ground as aircraft poured into JQ. Qantas lost around 400,000 passengers from their aircraft as the cut services into Europe and code shared with EK
There is little to no code share revenue observable in the statutory accounts. (Group revenue declines in real terms)
The alliance secured Qantas very little and already weakened, they were lucky the ACCC only gave them 5 years, instead of the 10 Mr Joyce wanted.

It is probable all Qantas European flights had to hub through Dubai for the duration of the 'alliance': the UAE is very sensitive to revenue capture from passengers and staff (ask the pilots about trying to live out of Dubai).
It is plausible that Perth to London was not covered by the alliance and therefore a way around it?

We are well aware of huge conflict at senior management level about the 'alliance' and lack of tangible benefit for Qantas. (it couldn't end soon enough)


Logistically the route is thin and suffers from real operational constraints, both from regulatory and meteorological perspectives. The aircraft can physically do it at least it APPEARS to, however the people operating it are very constrained. A planned TOD of 19.50 leaves no room. European weather being what it is EGLL may require a few early diversions, standby crew positioning and where they are positioned adds more variables.

Our hunch is that, given the flight wasn't oversold and some passengers appeared transferred from the existing service through Dubai, it may well quietly be curtailed, a bit like the AOC being split and the many millions spent before abandoning that 'idea'


Mr Joyce for all his favourable press, high remuneration and self promotion, does not seem in the cold light of day to execute well. This could be viewed as poor strategic modelling and a hierarchical management structure. Complex systems need broad inputs and route selection with a new aircraft is a big puzzle.

Mr Joyce's tenure shows examples of poor execution that may indicate poor strategic governance.

JQ HK comes to mind , whereby the plan as submitted did not comply with the Principal Place of Business rules. Very poor that an airline didn't know the rules, inexcusable really. A hasty re-write and a big cheque to Stanley Ho, with an introduction form Mr Packer conceivably, was still not successful. Red Q, lacked similar strategic thought. First Malaysia, then Singapore, then quietly dropped. A quick investigation of AOC applications at the time shows that these were made coincidentally around the same time as the announcement.


Perhaps this service results from a poorly structured model too. Poor strategic thinking, announcing and running a route that may well from a reliability (weather and crew limits) perspective may not be achievable sufficiently frequently to generate the Operating Revenue and patronage.

We would not be surprised to see a QF9 service via Singapore in the Northern Winter.

[Capt Fathom]

I really would hate to see it if things were going pear-shaped!
If the truth be known, I think it is.

[Fliegenmong]

interesting and will QF go back to routing to UK in addition via SIN also go via BKK again or compete with BA (and MH) and a route via KUL???

Dunno...& Don't care....There's been better ways for a good number of years now....with airlines that are as equally as safe, & far less disrespectful to their clients

Speaking as someone who has had a 30 yr association from TAA through the original Australian and onto QF ... & I'm not the only one I know who shuns the Rat nowadays...

Don't get me wrong...I've had some awesome times with QF...AND I'm an Australian....but since GD....Since AJ tried to tell us that he 'just got up one morning'...all was lost....

You're probably right re the Northern winter and the route being quietly dropped to return through SIN..GT likely won't report it! Ha ha..

[Capt Fathom]

GT has been very quiet lately!

[TBM-Legend]

Pommie [LON base] F/A's on first "Australian" direct service too...

Didn't see that in the news.

[Rated De]

GT has been very quiet lately!

Maybe he had to travel in Y class and is still being treated in hospital :E

[Capn Bloggs]

By Geoffrey Thomas...

The West Australian, Monday, 26 Mar 2018.

We didn’t feel a thing

On the first commercial Concorde flight as it passed through the sound barrier, a passenger sitting next to one of the chief designers said, “I didn’t feel a thing” .

The designer replied, “That was the hard part” .

And so it was on the first Qantas 787 nonstop flight from Perth to London — two years of hard work so that passengers didn’t feel a thing.

It was effortless because of the enormous effort expended by Qantas, Boeing, engine maker General Electric, Perth Airport and Border Force.

And that effort was on show at Perth Airport on Saturday evening, because it seemed every Qantas staff member was working, whether rostered or not. As QF9 taxied away from the terminal, airport staff and visitors at every vantage point waved us farewell.

The tyranny of distance was finally defeated — easily.

The food, wine and champagne flowed and across the plane it was a thumbs up on the culinary scorecard.

According to Lisa Norman, Qantas’ 787 chief pilot and in command of the flight, it was “leading the pack” of Europe-bound flights from Asia and what is more, we were flying higher at more than 12,000m, giving us clear air ahead in what is some of the world’s most congested airspace.

The landing, to rousing cheers, was superb.

We have made history.


And from journo Natalie Richards in Economy Class (another article in The West)...


Comforts ease squeeze
The headrest is too high, or not high enough, my neck feels like it’s been kicked by a donkey’s hind legs and I’ve lost all feeling in my right leg.

The much-hyped Dreamliner this may be, but let’s get one thing clear, this is a long-haul flight and, as with all long-haul flights, there are places you’d much rather be — bed for a start.

That said, these complaints are universal. But, if you’re sitting at the back of the bus, Qantas’ spanking new Dreamliner is about as good as it’s going to get.

They’ve thought of everything here — there’s a stand for your iPad, plug sockets and USBs. On a flight that takes off a few hours before bedtime, sleep was going to be critical to prevent cattle class from descending into a scene from the Muppets.

The cabin lights gently faded to a red glow after dinner and the temperature dropped, which was our cue to try to catch a bit of shut-eye .

The legroom, however, was a common niggle. The second the seats went back, we were squished in centimetres of space.

As we hit the tarmac at Heathrow, there was a loud round of applause at the back of the plane and not only because the inaugural flight had made it in one stab (let’s be honest, we were all a tad nervous).

It was over, far quicker than we expected.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Oi dinna feel a 'thing' eiver......

Oi wasn'e even dere......

cheeerrrsss...

(Hic)

[betterfromabove]

Does the QF 787 have the Y class row with window-seat-with-no-window that the EY machines possess?

12 hours jammed in a corner after expecting a view on the outside world is bad enough.....but 17....

And the nannying window-shading, even if you do have a window?

[WHBM]

Does the QF 787 have the Y class row with window-seat-with-no-window that the EY machines possess?I suspect it does because one of the journalists wrote that he got it !!!

Long been a Boeing feature, to regard windows as optional for certain rows just mid-cabin, apparently to route service ducts behind. Other manufacturers seem able to do without such an approach.

[busdriver007]

Geoffrey Thomas insisted and was given 5K. What the hell was Anthony Albanese doing on the flight? Reward for keeping quiet during Senate Enquiries or just in anticipation of a Labor Government?

[romeocharlie]

Pommie [LON base] F/A's on first "Australian" direct service too...

Didn't see that in the news.

Probably because the only real publicity QF have received in the last week has been Steve Smith wearing a hat with the roo on it.

[Rated De]

What the hell was Anthony Albanese doing on the flight? Reward for keeping quiet during Senate Enquiries or just in anticipation of a Labor Government? Mr Albanese was also present on the first flight to Dubai. Sources suggest he left an impression.

'Regulatory capture' is an interesting process Qantas have their invite only Chairman's lounge, junkets to Seattle, where the aircraft was full of 'journalists' where the champagne and caviar flowed. Scant mention of the fact that there were 600 odd 787 already operating, some on the Pacific...

As Media Watch correctly asserted, critical commentary is few and far between

https://www.facebook.com/ABCMediaWatch/videos/1864431040298033/


Riding the first Qantas Dreamliner: Seattle, Honolulu and finally Sydney | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/opinion/columns/from-seattle-to-honolulu-to-sydney-on-the-first-qantas-dreamliner-20171020-gz4v06)


Yet Mr Joyce stands there with a straight face calling out the Australian cricket team for corruption (cheating) when their own business practice is at best soft corruption. Wonder why no one challenges it in the mainstream? Ask Jo Easton at the AFR..

[stormfury]

Qantas Airways Ltd. is evaluating direct flights from Australia to Chicago as the next step in its plan to add more ultra-long-haul destinations using an expanding fleet of Boeing Co. 787 jetliners.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-27/qantas-eyes-chicago-direct-as-next-step-in-ultra-long-haul-push

It’ll be interesting to see how this compares when SIA commence their 350ULR to NYC later in the year.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

SIA-NYC will be further

[stormfury]

SIA-NYC will be further

It certainly will. Apologies, I didn't mean copare distance wise but as a service. My understanding is that SIA will only have two classes (no economy).

[AerialPerspective]

Geoffrey Thomas insisted and was given 5K. What the hell was Anthony Albanese doing on the flight? Reward for keeping quiet during Senate Enquiries or just in anticipation of a Labor Government?
Because he's the Shadow Minister for Transport I would think and yes, let's face it, he WILL be Minister for Transport, it's just a question of when and how big the landslide ends up being.

[Guptar]

Does anyone know what the fuel on board was when they parked at London, and Perth. Just curious as to the fuel burn.

[Capt Fathom]

Does anyone know what the fuel on board was when they parked at London, and PerthJet A1. Same as when they left! :}

[Roj approved]

the rumour is the flight plan had them arriving with 8T FOB, that's about 1.5hrs of fuel at Landing weight.

[Keg]

No rumour. They were planned over the top with 8. (Maybe 7.9... last week so I can’t remember anymore!) That’s at least 1.5 hours over min reserves of 30 min so closer to 120 minutes over the top. Given the low fuel flow of the 787 and the lower ZFW of these flight I suspect 8.0 is probably closer to 135- 140 minutes. No idea what they were on blox with.

Interestingly the flight a couple of days ago was planned at 17:35 flight time. Originally had 4.4T over the top. They had space to load additional fuel (which they did). Would have ended up closer to 6.0- 6.5 over the top.

[Roj approved]

Keg,
The 787's are good on fuel, but there is no way 8T is ever going to be more than 120mins of fuel.

But, its good to see they can get there with 60 holding plus reserves if the have favourable winds.

in reality, the PER-LHR is not as fuel critical in the final stages as the LHR-PER will be. Lots of options in Europe, approaching PER, not so much. without a big tailwind, 8T won't get you to ADL

[downdata]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-27/qantas-eyes-chicago-direct-as-next-step-in-ultra-long-haul-push

It’ll be interesting to see how this compares when SIA commence their 350ULR to NYC later in the year.

While QF is still “evaluating”, NZ already stole their thunder by annoucing AU direct to ORD via AKL. Now why would anyone want to transit at BNE instead of AKL

[Ushuaia]

.... Lots of options in Europe....

True. But the limiting factor then will be the 20 hr TOD hard limit. Anyone who has lobbed into the continent short of LHR knows that it's difficult to gas-n-go quickly; mainly it's a slot thing back into the LHR system, from my experience.

Oh that's right, just get the duty limit changed:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/cargo-class-qantas-ceo-reveals-out-there-options-for-super-long-haul-flights-20180327-p4z6l2.html

"Mr Joyce also said aviation regulators would have to change rules restricting how long pilots can fly for the long-haul routes to work."

[maggot]

Keg,
The 787's are good on fuel, but there is no way 8T is ever going to be more than 120mins of fuel.

But, its good to see they can get there with 60 holding plus reserves if the have favourable winds.

in reality, the PER-LHR is not as fuel critical in the final stages as the LHR-PER will be. Lots of options in Europe, approaching PER, not so much. without a big tailwind, 8T won't get you to ADL
Southbound is the short one

[Keg]

Just looked at today's plan for MEL-PER. 8T is 120 minutes. Thought it may have been more but there you go.

When I looked at the LHR- PER sector a few days back they were carrying a full load of 230+ pax and arriving in PER with about 5.5T. They still had a few ton below MTOW so could probably have put a bit more gas in it. Still, 8T over the top of PER doesn't give you too many funk holes if there are TS around. At least there's normally not much chance of FG in PER in the middle of the arvo!

[stormfury]

Oh that's right, just get the duty limit changed:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/cargo-class-qantas-ceo-reveals-out-there-options-for-super-long-haul-flights-20180327-p4z6l2.html

"Mr Joyce also said aviation regulators would have to change rules restricting how long pilots can fly for the long-haul routes to work."

Or he could look at how they’re crewed and recruit-train-retain the right mix of multiple crews within the current duty limits. Oh hang on, that would cost more and would probably eat into his bonus.

[Roj approved]

Thanks Maggot,

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Re. fuel remaining overhead EGLL of 8+, what's the problem, that would probably get you to EGKK or EGSS as a full alternate with the B787, based on my B767 time.
Arriving over EGLL with less than 10 in a B747-400 is not unknown, and with an alternate criteria of around 400/1600 (for many airlines even less) it can be quite inclement weather before an alternate in required, but that all depends on your UK CAA Ops. Spec. for your operation.
Contrary to "popular belief" not all airlines carry alternates for all flights, even in Europe.
Tootle pip!!

[rjtjrt]

Is Cocos Island a plannable/useable enroute diversion?

[BuzzBox]

I appreciate you wouldn't want to go there, but are you QF guys/gals able to plan Learmonth if Perth needs an alternate at the planning stage? We're not allowed to plan Learmonth, but we can use it if we run out of options after we launch (eg unforecast fog).

[maggot]

Thanks Maggot,

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

Yep, well south
And yep they probably won't be carrying any alternates, just a standard qf DPA.
As keg said, not too much of a fog risk at 2pm, maybe occasionally TS and they can eek out a tempo for that no problem.
How's cundernin looking LOL

[Keg]

Yep. We can plan Learmonth as an alternate and/or use it for ETOPS and all DP points.

[BuzzBox]

Thanks Keg - we can't plan to use it as a destination alternate or ETOPS ERA due to the lack of RFF.

[ExtraShot]

I am aware southbound, LHR-PER is shorter, but the list of suitable alternates in the Indian Ocean is a lot shorter too, if you are chasing the Westerly they will be south of Sri Lanka, 180 mins from Jakarta then its Port Headland and PER. Then even if you have 10T-12T on arrival PER, You won't make ADL, and really, who wants to go to Learmonth or Kalgoorlie?

Ushuaia,
PER-LHR, sure, duty time will be restrictive, but i'd rather be in a hotel in Frankfurt/Rome/ than the airport terminal at Learmonth/Kalgoorlie/Port Headland and running out of duty.

Add in Karratha to that list also...

It’s unlikely hotels would be needed, other than in exceptional circumstances.

Barring other delays out of the departure end, there should be plenty of duty remaining for a gas and go stop if needed, all those ports should be capable of it at that time of day. There should also be standby crew in Perth to pax one of the many qanta... erm network a320 services :E to pick it up should that be needed. Or have one of those idle a320s ;) come and get the passengers. (Not ideal but not a game changer-stopper).

Adelaide fuel is something like 14t overhead Perth, btw.

[SIUYA]

Or have one of those idle a320s come and get the passengers. (Not ideal but not a game changer-stopper).

Really? :rolleyes:

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board [quote] one of those idle a320s

FFS :ugh:

A 9 out of 10 effort for the exploding Havana Cigar award on that one ES. :ok:

[ExtraShot]

Really? :rolleyes:

How's that going to work with a 787-load of passengers, not to mention the usual customs and immigration crap they'd all need to go through before QF or whoever tried to get them all on board [quote] one of those idle a320s

FFS :ugh:

A 9 out of 10 effort for the exploding Havana Cigar award on that one ES. :ok:

So send two... there’s gonna be, what, 12 of them?!

Urgh, what’s the point. It was tongue in cheek mate. Enjoy your exploding cigar smartarse.

[AerialPerspective]

Jet A1. Same as when they left! :}
Hehe... very good... like the alleged story of the old lady in Melbourne asking a tramways employee "Sonny, how long will the next tram be please???"

"Sixty-three feet madam"

[missy]

Concerns were raised by passengers off the first 17-hour flights last weekend around comfort levels – especially in economy. Comments have led Joyce to say that the company is hunting for “out-there ideas” to “really change air travel for the future”.

Qantas had a choice for a 2/4/2 configuration but chose 3/3/3. Everybody knows 2/4/2 is better as you are only one seat from a (wider) aisle.

[wiggy]

Re. fuel remaining overhead EGLL of 8+, what's the problem, that would probably get you to EGKK or EGSS as a full alternate with the B787, based on my B767 time.

Agreed, not sure why 8T is remarkable. We (local T7 operator) regularly plan on landing at EGLL with under 7 tonnes...that gives the option of EGKK from the go around, getting there with 30 min reserve...8T overhead LAM (the north east LHR hold) would give EGKK and EGSS as options.

[Dee Vee]

Qantas had a choice for a 2/4/2 configuration but chose 3/3/3. Everybody knows 2/4/2 is better as you are only one seat from a (wider) aisle.

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

[Popgun]

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

Of course passengers prefer wider seats. But are they prepared to PAY EXTRA for more space?

In economy, it would probably seem that MOST passengers are not.

PG

[73to91]

Passengers would prefer wider seats, than wider aisles, obviously Qantas prefers sardines.

Well here is a review:
https://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/qf10-london-perth-economy-review/

The major criticism is the Economy seat. The seats are simply not wide enough for an average-sized adult to sit comfortably for 17 hours.

The seat is too narrow. Whilst I am tall, I am not particularly large. I was sitting next to someone who was also not ‘oversized’. We could not sit flat against the seat back side by side as our shoulders wanted to fill the same space. I spent the entire flight sitting at a slight angle so I wasn’t leaning into the aisle. Speaking of the aisle, I was bumped continuously during the flight, even though I was within the confines of my seat.

With 32 inches of seat pitch, the Qantas Dreamliner Economy seats do have more legroom than most Economy seats. But they’re also narrower than most Economy seats at just 17 inches wide. It’s true that most operators of the Dreamliner have opted for the same configuration with 9 seats per row instead of 8. (Japan Airlines is a notable exception.) But most airlines are not using these planes to fly non-stop from Australia to Europe.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I reckon I'm about average, and I'm just over 18 inches from outside shoulder to outside shoulder. With nowhere to go side to side, me in a middle seat is going to be force me on either side of me to lean slightly to the window side and aisle side to avoid touching me. Doesn't sound too comfy for 17 hours (except for me in the middle :O). If either of the me's on the outside refuses to budge, then the other me's are going to be really uncomfy.

[Dee Vee]

Well here is a review:
https://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/qf10-london-perth-economy-review/

I am sorry Qantas, but the seat on the 787 is too narrow. You have made a mistake going 9 across. You would have been better off having them wider (8 across) so losing a column of 20 seats but closer together (pitch) and gaining a row of 8. So a net loss of 12 seats for a much better ride.

I flew the A380 the day before with greater width and smaller pitch. It was much more comfortable.

I won’t be flying QF longhaul Y in a 787 again. I am actually not looking forward to my MEL-PER flight next month. (But I do have the F lounge to help!) And I wouldn’t recommend anyone else does, either.



I'm certainly not big, I would consider myself average or smaller, and I just measured myself arm to arm (which is actually wider than shoulder to shoulder), and I haven't found a way to remove my arms when I try and sit in an aircraft seat just yet.

20" arm to arm.

These economy seats are a major fail, I can see many arguments about armrests coming up!

[IsDon]

I’ve got an idea to keep the whiners happy about not enough room in economy class.

Why don’t we just convert the aircraft to business class only? Say 80 seats? Plenty of room for everyone. Even a special nook for storing your best going out thongs. Then charge the standard economy fare for each seat. Every flight would be booked solid. Unfortunately the airline would be broke inside six months but that’s ok. Well just go to the next airline that gives us unsustainable room for our economy ticket.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

The aeroplane is 9 abreast in economy for a reason. BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR!

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.

Like it or not the main driver for economy passengers is price. When Dazza and Shazza book their tickets the first thing they look at is the cost of the ticket. Once they’ve decided on the airline, based purely on cost, they then they whinge that they’re not served caviar and Veuve Clicquot on boarding.

The airline must make a profit. If it doesn’t it won’t be around for long. To make a profit a certain number of bums must be in seats. Charge too much, because you have 8 abreast seating in economy, and that the only way you can make a profit, then Dazza and Shazza will just fly with someone else. That someone else is likely to have 9 abreast seating. Guess what? They’ll still whinge about their seat being to small.

Seriously, some people should just stick to the bus.

[601]

he WILL be Minister for Transport,
Aiming a bit low? That would assume that Shorten is still there. Only way Albo will make a Minister again will be as Leader and then he will be PM.

And that is about as firm as 2/4/2 seating coming to your local QF B787.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

With an attitude like that it is little wonder that I have not flown Qantas international since 1980.

[Dee Vee]

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.


There are many options, including SIA or EK with up to 19 inches in economy and WIFI too!

[Bend alot]

I’ve got an idea to keep the whiners happy about not enough room in economy class.

Why don’t we just convert the aircraft to business class only? Say 80 seats? Plenty of room for everyone. Even a special nook for storing your best going out thongs. Then charge the standard economy fare for each seat. Every flight would be booked solid. Unfortunately the airline would be broke inside six months but that’s ok. Well just go to the next airline that gives us unsustainable room for our economy ticket.

Wake up you fu(king morons!

The aeroplane is 9 abreast in economy for a reason. BECAUSE THATS ALL YOU ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR!

There’s an option if you’re not happy. It’s called premium economy.

Like it or not the main driver for economy passengers is price. When Dazza and Shazza book their tickets the first thing they look at is the cost of the ticket. Once they’ve decided on the airline, based purely on cost, they then they whinge that they’re not served caviar and Veuve Clicquot on boarding.

The airline must make a profit. If it doesn’t it won’t be around for long. To make a profit a certain number of bums must be in seats. Charge too much, because you have 8 abreast seating in economy, and that the only way you can make a profit, then Dazza and Shazza will just fly with someone else. That someone else is likely to have 9 abreast seating. Guess what? They’ll still whinge about their seat being to small.

Seriously, some people should just stick to the bus.


Dazza and Shazza based on your model would pay $1,181 for a flight with Emirates not the flight with Qantas for $1342.


On a 777 (one sector) and A380.

[Dee Vee]

Dazza and Shazza based on your model would pay $1,181 for a flight with Emirates.

or even less. Given Qantas seem to have taken the Jetstar seating and feature options for their B787's, they might be pushing the proverbial up hill

https://i.imgur.com/O8Q18Cd.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/O8Q18Cd.jpg)

[chuboy]

EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width. Except as I recall the pitch is less than that of Qantas to boot. EY is no better.

SQ is obviously the one to beat for economy comfort and it shows, their product is so good they have shot themselves in the foot because half their fleet is specced with a Premium Economy cabin that they struggle to fill, no one is willing to pay the asking price so what do you do? Discount the seats and give your economy pricing the appearance of being overpriced in comparison?

SQs 787 has 9-across in Y as well by the way. And it will be the aircraft flying punters from Perth in competition with QF.

I did read a rumour that AJ contemplated fitting 8-across in Y, but it was shelved because it would have made the 789 uncompetitive on the other routes it will fly.

Never forget the pax with champagne tastes and champagne budgets are drinking said champagne in the pointy end! Look after them first. 95% of the ones in Y will pick another airline next time unless you are the cheapest option again.

[Rated De]

or even less. Given Qantas seem to have taken the Jetstar seating and feature options for their B787's, they might be pushing the proverbial up hillQantas have created a great deal of own brand damage. Studies suggest over $1 billion of lost value when considering the grounding, lockout and trash talking. Combined with the abandonment of European flying, probably a conservative number. . Kind of silly really.

Notwithstanding intentions, the problem for Low Far Airlines is they catch themselves in the 'price paradox': They can stimulate demand with 'market leading prices'. The problem is that all they capture are demand elastic travellers. (travellers who pick the best price of the day, no loyalty other than price) In fact their whole model weakness is demand elasticity. They struggle to build a value premium, which in turn builds yield. It is brand value that ensures sales can capture this price premium.

Having lost nearly 400,000 passengers from their own aircraft in the First year of the EK alliance and gutting their International netowrk (as well as the damage to brand), outside the home market Qantas finds it difficult to build that yield premium: There are simply too many other brands with value, with fuel efficient fleets that Qantas clearly lacks, their CASK is much lower across a stage length. This gives them a significant advantage diluting quickly any yield premium Qantas once commanded. Fuel costs are a big part of the problem. Lacking the fleet the prime problem.

Qantas has effectively stifled itself in poor strategic modelling, woeful execution and an internal obsession with fulfilling the CEO and Chairman's goals. Dominating unions, suppressing market forces with respect to labour unit cost has the focus internal. There is little outward looking strategy and when they have, they are confronted with competitors that moved on a long time ago.

[Dee Vee]

EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width.

Many people would choose an EK A380 flight and get the 19" seat width (and WIFI), e.g. EK421/EK29/EK1 etc.

[IsDon]

Thank you everyone for proving my point so convincingly. Price, and only price, is the driver for economy class.

Why not all roll the dice and fly Garuda, or Korean, may not make it, but at least it was cheap.

[1a sound asleep]

Garuda, or Korean? You may be shocked how really good they are in 2018.

[Rated De]

Why not all roll the dice and fly Garuda, or Korean, may not make it, but at least it was cheap.Don, do agree with your point, but you may be surpised how much the industry moved on whilst Qantas went to war with itself (staff)

The problem with Qantas is very much self induced.
The modern airline 'manager' comes from a very broad discipline of 'management'. To make these MBA style course widely accepted, the underlying tone, driven to a degree by the prevalence of accounting subjects is that COST is the one thing that management can easily focus on. So in they come, with the MBA and drive cost down, it is easily identifiable, oftentimes is human (labour) and for managers without real industry insight it becomes a norm; find a cost, reduce it. For what it is worth, we suspect that Qantas is readying itself for the next proxy war with staff; pilots.

The Low Fare Airline really was the accountant driven business. Forgive me if I am wrong but haven't all JQ CEO's been accountants?

The consumer bombarded with the same messages on price, expects (from a consumer point of view) the same 'value' at lesser price. We all demand cheap Chinese goods then complain when there are no real jobs left! ( I digress)

The problem with this is logically it cannot proceed below a given level (fixed cost) so by the time the 'management' re-orientate to growing revenue again (value) it is often too late.

This is the modern corporate cycle. Airlines with their high fixed cost are not necessarily well suited to this approach. Sadly though the 'management' class all read the same textbook.

Real good airline management keeps control of unit costs but equally focuses on driving revenue growth and building a brand value.

[Bend alot]

If you look at those prices posted I would probably take the second one.


The first was a glance at the prices down to about 8th.
Then was a look at airlines - that scrubbed a few.
Then it was flight duration.


I would then look into probably next aircraft type - A380 wins every time, then I rather a Boeing 747 followed by a 777.


Flight arrival and departure times do have an influence.


Any required stopover in Singapore would be a plus.

[Bend alot]

I just did a check for my next block of days off Perth to London 20-30 April (was and are flexible).


Singapore Airlines won.


Depart 22 April [Sun] at 14:05 on a B777 (nice time) arrive SIN 19:35 with about a 4 hour break. A bit of a stretch see what's on show in the terminals and beer in the Cactus Bar maybe a snack.


Board the A380 for London at 23.30 after a round of snacks and a beer or two, there is a chance of some sleep on this craft and the airline economy standard. Arrive London at a reasonable 6:00 in the morning [Mon].


Now for the return - Depart 22:05 on the 30th [Mon] on the A380 again after a snack and a couple of drinks there is a chance of some sleep early on when it is dark. You will arrive at SIN at 16:10 on the 1st of May [Tue], I chose the longest layover that was actually the cheapest (free) but would have anyway. This is a 13 and a half hour layover in Singapore.


I booked a $139 room at the Transit Hotel in T2 for 12 hrs inc breakfast.


So on arrival at Singapore it will be to check-in and grab a shower and change of clothes. Then a beer around the pool and go get a meal at one of the many outlets. Depending on how the previous flight went I can decide on getting 6 to a good 10 hors of sleep in the room.


Get up have breakfast (included) and head off for boarding the 777 for a 7:40 departure 2nd May [Wed] arriving about lunch time the same day in Perth.


Cost $1,163.73 + $139 room


Pretty sure I could pay for the beers in Singapore with the savings from the direct flight cost & turn up for work on Thursday.

[*Lancer*]

Of course PER LHR isn’t for everyone and of course there are plenty of options. Qantas only needs a few hundred per day, not the whole Australia Europe market.

Have a great trip :ok:

[PoppaJo]

Most comfortable economy class to London would be SIA A380 upper deck. There is a small economy cabin located at the rear of the business cabin which is very quiet.

Not much further behind would be the Qatar or Etihad A380s all the way through. Product is brilliant and service mostly top notch.

I have not flown Qantas internationally in 30 years and have no intention of doing so. If they bring their A380s up to QR/EY standard then I’ll give them a run.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I see IsDon has displayed his compassionate and considerate concern for his customers again. I bet I know which seats the crew rest won't be.
From the Qantas web site:
The experience:
Providing optimal comfort and space for every passenger is at the core of the Qantas Dreamliner design which features 236 seats - less than most other aircraft of its type.

The aircraft is fitted with state-of-the-art technology to reduce turbulence, improve noise quality and reduced aircraft vibrations for a smoother flight. Every seat has been designed to offer the ultimate comfort for long-haul flyers. My bolding.
Actually, apart from a slightly longer pitch, they've done SFA about and just jammed the standard 9 abreast in. However, they've marketed that they've revolutionized LH travel with the "game-changer". You may as well fly Jetstar, but you are paying more for the QF experience. Even Vietnam Airlines Y seats are 18" wide in their 789's.

[PoppaJo]

There are very few carriers left offering acceptable economy standards on the 777 and 787. In this part of the world, Virgin/Singapore/Cathay has 3-3-3 in its 777, and Japan Airlines are 2-4-2 in their 787.

The upcoming 777x is wider than the current model which will probably mean a 11 across configuration.

[Enos]

The upcoming 777x is wider than the current model which will probably mean a 11 across configuration.


No it's Not.

Unless you're talking about its wingspan.

[WHBM]

No it's Not.

Unless you're talking about its wingspan.
We believe it is, and although the fuselage diameter stays the same, the internal dimension is being increased by about 8" by the use of thinner insulation material for cabin walls.

Given the regular statements that airlines have no concern for any feature that increases passenger seat comfort, the only reason for this can be to insert another seat. The 787 was not announced as changing from 8 across to 9 across until the point it entered service.

The 777 is already one of the noisiest aircraft around inside the cabin, and the thinner insulation can do nothing to improve that - in fact presumably the converse.

[Stampe]

Has anyone seen typical load sheet figures for this route I,d be very interested in seeing typical zero fuel weight ,fuel carried and actual fuel burns in both directions in average wind conditions.In 1996 my then employer operated a charter series from LGW to PER with just one fuel stop at AUH using 763 aircraft payload restricted with I think about 30 of 328 all economy seats unsold.I only operated it once 11.0 hours AUH to PER and 10.30 PER to AUH.I remember we had to carry remote holding fuel to PER as the nearby military field was not available to us as alternate.The route did not last long as the scheduled operators lowered their fares in unison whilst the route operated and yields were unviable.Those figures would be very interesting.Regards Stampe

[JPJP]

EK 777s have 10-abreast making them just as bad as the 787 Y-seat width. Except as I recall the pitch is less than that of Qantas to boot. EY is no better.

SQ is obviously the one to beat for economy comfort and it shows, their product is so good they have shot themselves in the foot because half their fleet is specced with a Premium Economy cabin that they struggle to fill, no one is willing to pay the asking price so what do you do? Discount the seats and give your economy pricing the appearance of being overpriced in comparison?

SQs 787 has 9-across in Y as well by the way. And it will be the aircraft flying punters from Perth in competition with QF.

I did read a rumour that AJ contemplated fitting 8-across in Y, but it was shelved because it would have made the 789 uncompetitive on the other routes it will fly.

Never forget the pax with champagne tastes and champagne budgets are drinking said champagne in the pointy end! Look after them first. 95% of the ones in Y will pick another airline next time unless you are the cheapest option again.

Seat Guru Shows SQ 787 Economy as a 19 inch seat width, and 32 inch pitch. In the pricing example above, they are $50.00 more expensive than Alans Tube of Torture. Virgin Australia has an 18 inch seat width.

One of the motivating factors to work hard, is to be able to afford a business class or Premium Economy (at worst) seat. Because, if I have to sit in an economy seat for 20 hours, I’m gonna fkin lose it :} Virgin Australia's trans pacific business class is excellent. United, not so much.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Singapore_Air/fleetinfo.php

[Dee Vee]

The 777 is already one of the noisiest aircraft around inside the cabin, and the thinner insulation can do nothing to improve that - in fact presumably the converse.

This has been my experience as well, the only one noisier is the B747.

[Keg]

Stampe, ZFWs for PER- LHR have been in the vicinity of 150- 153. Fuel uplift has been in vicinity of 97-100 T depending on the day, payload, etc. Planned to arrive with about 7.0T but I don’t have any access to actual fuel on arrival.

[maggot]

Think of the kilograms to be saved with a SE taxi in

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Stampe, ZFWs for PER- LHR have been in the vicinity of 150- 153. Fuel uplift has been in vicinity of 97-100 T depending on the day, payload, etc. Planned to arrive with about 7.0T but I don’t have any access to actual fuel on arrival.

what is the OEW? ~130T?

[Bend alot]

Any info on the passenger numbers in the 3 classes on these flights since the media one?

[ExtraShot]

Any info on the passenger numbers in the 3 classes on these flights since the media one?

Joyce mentioned forward bookings in the region of 90% load factor. Seems to be accurate so far.

[Stampe]

Keg thank you for those figures.I,ll work on a ramp fuel of 100t so assume a burn of roughly 93t.I,ve always been interested in ultra long haul flying and it’s planning.Spent most of my career on the 75/767 but decided to avoid the 78 in the last few years before retirement not liking the way it was introduced and the lifestyle it created.The type seems finally to have settled down in terms of reliability but is very heavy in terms of empty weight although it’s wing is amazingly efficient in the cruise very miserly fuel burns over long distances!Regards Stampe,

[Bend alot]

Joyce mentioned forward bookings in the region of 90% load factor. Seems to be accurate so far.


If it is an even 90% across the 3 classes that's good, but you would not like it to be 20 short in the front seats.

[parabellum]

Long been a Boeing feature, to regard windows as optional for certain rows just mid-cabin, apparently to route service ducts behind. Other manufacturers seem able to do without such an approach.


Boeing build the aeroplanes but the customers decide on their required seat config, toilet and galley placing etc. Whether you get a window or not is down to the airline.

[WHBM]

Boeing build the aeroplanes but the customers decide on their required seat config, toilet and galley placing etc. Whether you get a window or not is down to the airline.
That's a bit of a cop-out. It's quite apparent, comparing external views of Boeing and Airbus fuselages, that Boeing are quite happy to have blank cabin walls at points where one might typically expect seating, an aspect which Airbus manage to avoid.

And regarding toilet-galley placing, although flexible that is driven by airframe provision for plumbing connections, tank location, etc.

[Icarus2001]

Other manufacturers seem able to do without such an approach

Nice try at Boeing bashing. I was on an Airbus 330 last week, row 14 had no windows either side, in line with pax seats, just in front of a bulkhead and door. It happens.

[73to91]

Alans Tube of Torture
thanks JPJP

[betterfromabove]

I'm still amazed that you can buy / select a "Window" seat that ends up not having one.....

12 hours on a full flight PER-AUH was bad enough. 17 hours PER-LHR, amongst all the other claustrophobia-inducing factors in the QF 787 Y sounds like true hell.

Classic example of those doing the marketing never having to experience what certain customers have to.....

PS. It's the horrible extension of the nannying dimmed windows the aircraft has.

[73to91]

Meanwhile, the 787-10 has completed it's first delivery to SQ.

A question or two for you guys who fly these aircraft:
Wouldn't the 747-8 have been a better option for QF to get to Europe non-stop?

It's made of carbon composites, advanced aluminium alloys, has a range of 14,816km and can seat over 400. Or is it still a thirsty machine?

Looking at the Boeing specs:
787-8 - Range 7,355 nmi (13,620 km) Seats 242 Seatguru has JQ with 21 J & 314 Y
787-9 - Range 7,635 nmi (14,140 km) Seats 292 Seatguru has QF 10 today with 42J 28W & 166Y
787-10 Range 6,430 nmi (11,910 km) Seats 330
747-8 - Range 8,000 nm (14,816 km) Seats 410

[Rated De]

It's made of carbon composites, advanced aluminium alloys, has a range of 14,816km and can seat over 400. Or is it still a thirsty machine?

It is the fuel cost.

The fuel included CASK is the real killer.
Fuel is around 30% of the Operating Cost. Even if you lose a few seats effectively halving the fuel burn over a similar stage length that makes the modern big twin purchase decision 'child's play'

Unless you are Qantas where you bet that fuel stay low. Given that the fall in fuel prices was $597 million of Qantas' amazing 'transformation' profit in FY15, a rise in fuel prices could undo 'the amazing turnaround'. So they fumble around with a total 8 787-9 and hope the media keep taking junkets with them and fail to notice there were over 600 flying (Even JQ have 11 788) before Qantas had one!

Qantas need a new fleet

[parabellum]

Given the size of the population of South Australia that are of German descent I would have thought an Adelaide to Frankfurt or Munich service would be a good commercial opportunity for the B787.

[blow.n.gasket]

73to91
Wouldn't the 747-8 have been a better option for QF to get to Europe non-stop?



Rated De
The fuel included CASK is the real killer.
Fuel is around 30% of the Operating Cost. Even if you lose a few seats effectively halving the fuel burn over a similar stage length that makes the modern big twin purchase decision 'child's play'

Unless you are Qantas where you bet that fuel stay low. Given that the fall in fuel prices was $597 million of Qantas' amazing 'transformation' profit in FY15, a rise in fuel prices could undo 'the amazing turnaround'. So they fumble around with a total 8 787-9 and hope the media keep taking junkets with them and fail to notice there were over 600 flying (Even JQ have 11 788) before Qantas had one!

Qantas need a new fleet

Problem solved , problems that havn’t even been addressed yet.
2nd segment limits out of SCL & JNB with twin engined aircraft.
Polar operations below 70* south with twin engined aircraft ?
Solution B747-8 with 747 ER tankage.
Would this fulfill “ Operation Sunrise “ range requirements ?
Could a 777-8 with Aux fuel tankage match ?
Can the 777 envisionaged fulfill second segment limits on the SCL & JNB legs ?

[ExtraShot]

If it is an even 90% across the 3 classes that's good, but you would not like it to be 20 short in the front seats

Certainly not, but it Seems it’s been higher than 90% up front... looking popular with both ‘up front’ classes. :ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

No one will order a 747 in passenger configuration going forward for the reasons given by Rated

Only 47 -8I bought so far and no order for 18 months+

The big twins will get more economic not less and the 747 will be only built as a freighter - but it's had a 45 year run so not to shabby really

[WHBM]

Certainly not, but it Seems it’s been higher than 90% up front... looking popular with both ‘up front’ classes.
This would come as a mystery to US carriers, for whom the C accommodation is only there for those paying Y fares who are at the upper tiers of their frequent flyer scheme, and F is there for those few paying C class fares/any politicians to influence, who are then bumped further forward from C to cater for the first group.

[Dee Vee]

Wouldn't the 747-8 have been a better option for QF to get to Europe non-stop?

The 747's are old, noisy, have bad pressure and humidity levels and of course no WIFI. I will never fly one of these by choice.

I have on a number of occasions chosen a different airline, so I can fly on a modern, quiet, low altitude pressurised and humidified, WIFI enabled aircraft.

[Capt Fathom]

I have on a number of occasions chosen a different airline, so I can fly on a modern, quiet, low altitude pressurised and humidified, WIFI enabled aircraft
So you are limited to the 787 only. Don’t know that wifi is that common?

[Dee Vee]

So you are limited to the 787 only. Don’t know that wifi is that common?

the A380 is my choice whenever possible, if you look at the airfare screenshot I posted earlier, you'll see almost every other aniline except Qantas offers WIFI to LHR (and many other destinations too).

[blow.n.gasket]

Dee Vee
you'll see almost every other aniline except Qantas offers WIFI to LHR (and many other destinations too).

That’s because all those other airlines don’t have a massive executive bonus scheme dragging them down like Qantas’ management inspired millstones do !
Money that could be better spent on things like wifi and modern aircraft !

[IsDon]

the A380 is my choice whenever possible, if you look at the airfare screenshot I posted earlier, you'll see almost every other aniline except Qantas offers WIFI to LHR (and many other destinations too).

Qantas will have WiFi in long haul shortly. It’s being rolled out domestically and it works very well. It uses the NBN satellites and is about the fastest airborne WiFi you’ll see anywhere. No problems streaming HD Netflix.

My experiences with WiFi offered by other carriers has been so slow it’s really not even with considering. Ok for checking emails and web browsing but totally useless for streaming.

This is why Qantas haven’t yet jumped into WiFi internationally yet. The current offering is just not good enough. Domestically the geostationary NBN satellites provide the desired speed but there isn’t an internationally equivalent option as yet.

[Capn Bloggs]

It uses the NBN satellites and is about the fastest airborne WiFi you’ll see anywhere. No problems streaming HD Netflix.
The cow-cockies will be happy about that.

[Dee Vee]

WiFi offered by other carriers has been so slow it’s really not even with considering. Ok for checking emails and web browsing but totally useless for streaming

Emails and browsing and social media is what most people use it for, and it is perfect for that, I've never encountered any problems.

Aircraft WIFI isn't designed for streaming, and to use that (or wanting to be "offline") as excuses for not having it is to be frank, insulting people's intelligence. If you want to stream Netflix, then download it before you leave and play it offline, if you want to be "offline" turn off your phone.

[SRFred]

The cow-cockies will be happy about that.


Given that the "cow-cockies" have to handle a thing called nbn's fair use policy which seems to be per receiver based I wonder how they are handling the potential usage from a lot of people on a single receiver.


Sky Muster has some "nice" features like it drops out with a bit of moisture in the air. More of an issue at ground level than at cruise levels but it is not as stable as some of the other commercial satellite services like the Optus birds.

[ZFT]

Emails and browsing and social media is what most people use it for, and it is perfect for that, I've never encountered any problems.

Aircraft WIFI isn't designed for streaming, and to use that (or wanting to be "offline") as excuses for not having it is to be frank, insulting people's intelligence. If you want to stream Netflix, then download it before you leave and play it offline, if you want to be "offline" turn off your phone.

Not having WiFi is to me an advantage as I'm left alone for a change!

[pilotchute]

I was using wifi on a trip to London via the ME in 2014!

What are Qantas waiting for exactly?

[QuarterInchSocket]

Q has a lot to make up for when it comes to international product offerings including but not limited to wifi. It’s pretty embarrassing what q dishes out to its customers relative to other airlines. Domestically though, it’s a proper and good service.

Comments not in haste, just want the best for q and it’s customers and at the moment... I reckon it’s lagging on the international front.

[wheels_down]

It would be great if Virgin had a bit more momentum and could expand its International network. One thing Virgin has done right is it’s widebody configuration. All 777s and A330s are the same, there is no second guessing which product rolls up at the gate. Virgin has one inflight config across the Pacific and Honkers. I’ve lost count how many varieties of configurations QF offer across the Pacific.

[Rated De]

was using wifi on a trip to London via the ME in 2014!

What are Qantas waiting for exactly? It is plausible that the use of Wifi is not widespread enough for Qantas to use the word 'game-changing.' When they finally roll it out will equate to the other carriers pioneering a new technology. :E

As with the 787 the first aircraft Qantas received had a LN 615. Fortunately the 'journalists' on their Seattle junket to pick the thing up from Boeing, were luckily given their press releases by Olivia and her darling husband, luckily no one checked! Soft corruption is a well used 'business expense' at Coward street!

Seriously though, all energy within the group under the tenure of the little Napoleon has been focused on JQ.

Growing from 36 aircraft it now has 122. Sadly although the parent has less aircraft JQ can only scrape in 25% of the revenue the Qantas 'brand' brings.

Qantas need a new fleet and a Board.

[Bend alot]

Rated De,


I would suggest that Qantas have a few extra aircraft than JQ but a much greater seating capacity to earn a higher revenue. (Would be interesting to know the total seats of both - think Q have some freighters on the books??)


JQ by all reports has lower staff costs and a much newer (fuel efficient) fleet. These two factors being biggest costs to companies.


So in some cases it is good to only get 25% of revenue - just depends how much marble you like in your cut of beef.

That said I doubt very many JQ flights into Canberra, but lots of revenue for Qantas.

[Rated De]

We think you will find that the JQ fleet is bigger. Even bigger than when we last checked.

JQ by all reports has lower staff costs and a much newer (fuel efficient) fleet. These two factors being biggest costs to companies.

JQ most certainly have a more fuel efficient fleet.

Fuel costs and labour costs count for 65% of an airline's operating cost.

So in some cases it is good to only get 25% of revenue - just depends how much marble you like in your cut of beef.That is an interesting position. JQ fly 48% of the ASK of Qantas aircraft yet can only generate 22% of the Operating Revenue. This is indicative that JQ is scale inefficient.
Given the Qantas refuse to dis-aggregate the JQ segment it is impossible to actually discern whether either segment is profitable. Further the use of associate entities, equity accounted is one thing, the capital structures of the offshore entities are opaque. Their actual 'value' is at best neutral. It is highly likely that their (JQ) 'international' segment is not profitable. Mr Buchanan argued against any further international expansion at JQ, he was sent on gardening leave.

The preparation of the aggregate (Consolidated) accounts make it impossible to actually see how many staff JQ have. It is entirely 'legal' for Qantas to lend staff (paid for by Qantas)/Services to JQ/ Headcount to JQ (Mr Joyce admitted this in a Senate inquiry, without detailing the frequency of this) that alters/reduces the unit labour cost. If an 'invoice' is ever generated its payment may or may not be reflected in intersegment accounts. They will be shown in the internal management accounts, but are lost when accounts are aggregated as it makes the presentation far simpler.

Therefore labour cost to JQ is likely to be lower than the parent as services and headcount are assigned to the Qantas cost centres but actually provide labour and service to JQ. We stress this is not illegal but is disingenuous.

What is surprising is that Mr Joyce wants to re-equip JQ which, as you correctly stated has the much newer fleet. It would be strategically sensible to ensure that management lower the fuel included CASK and improve the Operating Profit margin whilst the cost of capital is cheap and there remains a cash flow surplus. The Qantas RASK/CASK margin is far better than JQ, even allowing for lower labour unit cost over a given stage length. The A380 decision was not Mr Joyce's, every aircraft decision since then is. (Point: Not a single Qantas aircraft order)

Qantas need a new fleet.

[Bend alot]

I thought Qantas still had 2 x 787 on order?

Yes you seem to understand the slide of hand well.

What do Qantas "use JQ or JQ use Qantas" as in states for crew?

[nomorecatering]

Who needs a window, PER-LHR is at night, nothing to look at.

I've heared from several sources that the oil price may never rise again due to the falling demand that will come from the mass adoption of electric vehicles.

Could this be the savior of the 747-8. Is there any possibility of a 4 row fuselage stretch. I know the PIP programmes for the engines are on their way, or maybe delivered, but is there anything left in terms of improvements in the future. How far behind in terms of SFC are they compared to the 777x engines.

[Bend alot]

Oil will always rise and fall, but extraction technology has sort of put a cap on OPEC's say in the oil price.


Currently $60 bucks and ever man and dog will flood the market, $50 keeps the reliable feed and $40 is the ones that must.


The Quads need to be twins in cruise, Far more easy to do with a Tri.

[Rated De]

I've heared from several sources that the oil price may never rise again due to the falling demand that will come from the mass adoption of electric vehicles.There are a number of issues with the fantasy of electric vehicles, least of all the generation of electricity which predominantly is generated using either fossil fuel (coal) or nuclear. The energy budget to build and run electric vehicles is a little more intensive than Mr Musk spruiks.

If one speaks to geologists or indeed 'oil people' their consensus is that it is in decline. The IEA has a plethora of public data and the 'convertible' reserves known in the world. Sadly the discoveries have not kept up with the consumption for decades, with annual consumption rising 1.3%. Discoveries have not kept up. The Permian basin and Bakken fields in the USA and the Ghawar field in Saudi Arabia are in decline and those who understand the geology realise that the shale industry creates enormous problems refining; it usually requires blending with heavier oils as it is thin. The refineries can't refine it without it being blended. There are no easy ways out of it!

Manufacturers and engineers are working on many ideas to reduce reliance on fossil fuels. Unfortunately, the hope of all electric cars is a little way off, if the issues of electricity generation and indeed rare earth metals (required for battery) scarcity can be solved.

Thus whilst Mr Joyce may well hope that fuel prices stay low, it would be prudent use of shareholder capital to re-equip Qantas with at least equal number of twin engined aircraft thereby lowering their fuel included CASK, growing Operating Margin and reducing emissions.

Whilst it is overdue that capital be directed at Qantas and having lost a lot of ground are doing something new (hence the title of this thread) it still seems irresponsible to waste shareholder funds on share buy backs.

Qantas need a new fleet.

[nomorecatering]

One of the sources I was talking to was an engineer from Mercedes Benz. Even Mercedes are predicting the take-up of electric vehicles to be huge and are forecasting a decline in oil consumption. Interestingly he and others also said that algae-oil, that is, making crude oil from algae in a pressure cooker will eventually make extracting crude oil from the ground un-economic. But that's not going to stem the rise of electric cars & trucks. Audi have even made diesel from water & CO2.

My main question is will the stable oil prices give a new life to the quads.

[maggot]

One of the sources I was talking to was an engineer from Mercedes Benz. Even Mercedes are predicting the take-up of electric vehicles to be huge and are forecasting a decline in oil consumption.


Yeah I bet he is, with the scandis and probably all of EU going to move to ban ICE cars by 2030

How much that will rub off the world, who knows but it will certainly drive the technology which will spill over to other markets at least.

[Rated De]

One of the sources I was talking to was an engineer from Mercedes Benz. Even Mercedes are predicting the take-up of electric vehicles to be huge and are forecasting a decline in oil consumptionNaturally he is. The engineering may well work, but securing the rare earth metals is a problem. Leaving power generation to someone else a classic 'externality'. Elon Musk does the same thing. Any analysis of TSLA's cash position shows that there is a large gap between talk and success.


My main question is will the stable oil prices give a new life to the quads.Your question has two answers. Yes it gives life to existing four engine aircraft. A depreciated mid life 747 with low fuel prices can and does make a good return. The second part of the answer requires an analysis of the WTI futures. There appears a little 'backwardation', however analysis from the manufacturers is predicated on higher oil or a contango situation, wherein the four engine aircraft (dependent upon age) as prices rise become progressively less viable.

With these scenarios it is our opinion that four engine production lines will slow and cease.

Perhaps an indicator of the 'value' of the four engine aircraft was the Etihad loss of $1.9 billion. There were write downs of fleet totaling $1 billion and some of their 'investments' but effectively the bigger aircraft were reduced to a near zero book value reflecting the realisable value in the second hand market. Inter woven here though is the politics and management culture in the Middle East.

Having said all that, if your brand can generate a good RASK and you can lower your fuel included CASK only the foolish would not choose to grow Operating Margins by spending a lot less on fuel by equipping the fleet with long range twins. Which is why most airlines have already do so.

Qantas need a new fleet

[AerialPerspective]

No one will order a 747 in passenger configuration going forward for the reasons given by Rated

Only 47 -8I bought so far and no order for 18 months+

The big twins will get more economic not less and the 747 will be only built as a freighter - but it's had a 45 year run so not to shabby really
Why is it necessary to say 'going forward'... surely they wouldn't order it going backward???

[AerialPerspective]

No one will order a 747 in passenger configuration going forward for the reasons given by Rated

Only 47 -8I bought so far and no order for 18 months+

The big twins will get more economic not less and the 747 will be only built as a freighter - but it's had a 45 year run so not to shabby really
... and it first flew in 1969 commercially so it's actually 49 years, just months away from 50.

[AerialPerspective]

The 747's are old, noisy, have bad pressure and humidity levels and of course no WIFI. I will never fly one of these by choice.

I have on a number of occasions chosen a different airline, so I can fly on a modern, quiet, low altitude pressurised and humidified, WIFI enabled aircraft.
The 747-8 is not 'old'. You can't judge it by a 747-100.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Why is it necessary to say 'going forward'... surely they wouldn't order it going backward???

Noticed how any time you see the words “going forward” (as used in fashionable management-speak, rather than to indicate a direction of travel), you can delete them without changing the meaning of the sentence at all?

[Rated De]

Noticed how any time you see the words “going forward” (as used in fashionable management-speak, rather than to indicate a direction of travel), you can delete them without changing the meaning of the sentence at all?

It may help to fill in this card next time one is exposed to this crap (you may need a few cards, the BS flies thick in Corporate world)

https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flagshipconsulting.co.uk%2Fw p-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2FPicture2.jpg&sp=2b3fda9fd9aec89450b4d122e91e4845

[Roj approved]

These guys do a good line in buzz words, it is kinda how I imagine all offices run

https://youtu.be/-TBPomZrtWg