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kkbuk
22nd Mar 2018, 14:35
The new blue British passport is to be made by a French/Dutch company. The lunatics are running the asylum again.

Highway1
22nd Mar 2018, 14:41
Why? - it was the best deal.

Isn't the whole point of Brexit that we can trade with whoever in the world offers the best deals

ZFT
22nd Mar 2018, 14:44
Why? - it was the best deal.

Isn't the whole point of Brexit that we can trade with whoever in the world offers the best deals

Does anyone really care? The over inflated price will not get reduced because the new supplier is cheaper.

chevvron
22nd Mar 2018, 14:55
I'm applying now literally £72.50p per person 'cos they said on telly this morning the price is going up next tuesday.
I know I won't get a 'proper' blue one but I'll need it before 2019. Maybe they'll exchange it after the real ones come back.

ShyTorque
22nd Mar 2018, 14:59
Don't worry, we can put a tariff on imports...

kkbuk
22nd Mar 2018, 15:07
Why? - it was the best deal.

Isn't the whole point of Brexit that we can trade with whoever in the world offers the best deals
This is not 'getting the best deal' it is exporting jobs. When will Britain get to grips with the fact that not enough is produced in Britain and buying in products and services is a luxury that the country can no longer afford? Civil Servants will say that because Britain is still in The European Union it was necessary to invite tenders from all and sundry but I don't think that the French, for example, would countenance having their passports produced by a foreign company. When it comes to national pride, the French ignore the rules and do as they please, as in the state help for their embattled motor manufacturing industry recently. Once again, Britain will be the laughing-stock of the continent.

treadigraph
22nd Mar 2018, 15:14
My brother used to run a company on the continent that, amongst other things, laminated passports. He said several times that he'd bid for and won contracts to do passports for other EU countries, then there'd be an appeal from within that country and the contract re-awarded to a local firm. Not very chuffed was he...

The Nr Fairy
22nd Mar 2018, 15:20
Not a level playing field when De La Rue can't bid to produce French passports, according to the BBC News article I read.

Highway1
22nd Mar 2018, 15:24
This is not 'getting the best deal' it is exporting jobs. When will Britain get to grips with the fact that not enough is produced in Britain and buying in products and services is a luxury that the country can no longer afford? Civil Servants will say that because Britain is still in The European Union it was necessary to invite tenders from all and sundry but I don't think that the French, for example, would countenance having their passports produced by a foreign company. When it comes to national pride, the French ignore the rules and do as they please, as in the state help for their embattled motor manufacturing industry recently. Once again, Britain will be the laughing-stock of the continent.

But the UK company (De La Rue) produce Passports and identity documents for countries around the globe - its just in this case one of their competitors was cheaper. One of the reasons to get away from the EU is the protectionist mantra that it promotes - we should be open to the world for the best deal.

Highway1
22nd Mar 2018, 15:25
Not a level playing field when De La Rue can't bid to produce French passports, according to the BBC News article I read.

Then that is hurting the French who pay more than they otherwise would.

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 15:47
I can just see the headline: "Passport company with a chip on its shoulder". :O

VP959
22nd Mar 2018, 15:53
It's a good example of the way some countries follow EU rules and some don't. In this case the UK followed the rules, as it is required to until we leave, and the contract was advertised and competed across the whole of the EU, as mandated.

The French ignore EU rules like this, and contract with companies in France for items like this. The French have been cherry-picking EU rules to suit themselves for years, it's just us stupid Brits who insist on following them to the letter.

Saintsman
22nd Mar 2018, 16:13
If you were going to make a purchase and the UK supplier was quite a bit higher than an overseas supplier, would you really purchase the UK one if the quality was similar?

From what I understand, the De La Rue bid was substantially higher.

Besides, I don't recall anyone up in arms saying that they couldn't make passports for foreign countries because they were taking away the locals jobs.

Business works both ways (on a level playing field that is).

kkbuk
22nd Mar 2018, 16:34
Does no-one see the irony in having the much-vaunted 'Blue British Passport' produced in the European Union? Surely the Brexiteers must have something to say about this.

Bee Rexit
22nd Mar 2018, 16:38
Does no-one see the irony in having the much-vaunted 'Blue British Passport' produced in the European Union? Surely the Brexiteers must have something to say about this.
----
No. Next.

Andy_S
22nd Mar 2018, 17:06
Does no-one see the irony in having the much-vaunted 'Blue British Passport' produced in the European Union? Surely the Brexiteers must have something to say about this.

Yes, as a Brexiteer I do see the irony. But as a believer in value for money for the taxpayer I'm OK with it. Assuming, of course, that the successful bidder isn't receiving any form of covert state aid.

I also see another irony, in that we in the UK are constantly being criticised for being 'Bad Europeans' and always wanting special favours and exemptions. And yet, as VP959 observes, we are the ones who loyally stick to the rules.......

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 17:40
Yes, as a Brexiteer I do see the irony. But as a believer in value for money for the taxpayer I'm OK with it. Assuming, of course, that the successful bidder isn't receiving any form of covert state aid.

I also see another irony, in that we in the UK are constantly being criticised for being 'Bad Europeans' and always wanting special favours and exemptions. And yet, as VP959 observes, we are the ones who loyally stick to the rules.......

If only the Brexiteers had lobbied for the UK to stay in the EU and for everyone else to be kicked out ...

LowNSlow
22nd Mar 2018, 17:45
The French passports are produced by a state owned company hence they don't have to tender for the production of them. If they had privatised their passport production then they would have to go out for tender. I still agree with VP959 though regarding various EU countries cherry-picking rules....

The daftest thing of all though is that the EU didn't mandate burgundy as the passport colour (Croatia's is dark blue) so, although all the other EU states chose burgundy, the UK passport could have been produced in any colour so it could have been blue from when the old book style cardboard passports were phased out in 1988.

Groundloop
22nd Mar 2018, 17:51
The bottom line of the bid may be lower but, if as a result, De La Rue lay off employes how much does the UK Government lose in Corporation Tax, Income Tax, NI, etc. and have to pay out benefits? Goverments should look at the whole picture - not just concentrate on the apparent up front cost.

Andy H
22nd Mar 2018, 18:01
Never mind folks. EBay sell passport covers in any colour you like. Just buy one in your favourite shade!
Andy H

LowNSlow
22nd Mar 2018, 18:03
Who says De La Rue is going lay off any employees? The Grauniad makes a big deal of the possibility here https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/22/de-la-rue-the-british-money-maker-that-lost-uk-passport-contract but buried in the middle is the statement The biggest concern over the loss of the UK passport contract centres on the company’s printing plant in Gateshead where it employs 600 people, of whom about 100 are thought to work in the passport division. The company has not said these jobs have been put at risk.

They are the world's largest passport maker, currently producing 14 million passports per year https://www.investegate.co.uk/de-la-rue-plc--dlar-/rns/update-on-uk-passport-tender/201803220759455682I/

G0ULI
22nd Mar 2018, 18:38
The colour of the passport is immaterial. What does give cause for concern is that a foreign company is producing British passports and of necessity has access to the security protocols and materials needed to manufacture them. Given that a passport is the most widely accepted identity document in the UK, this development must represent a grievous threat to UK national security.

Then there is the question of personal details of British citizens perhaps being passed to a foreign third party to facilitate production.

Exactly what is going to stop this French company from producing as many "spare" passports as they want, using genuine materials.

My experience of the clothing industry taught me that extra, undocumented copies of high end designs are produced and sold on by skilled cutters who can get that little bit extra from each bolt of material. I suspect any document production process operates in much the same way.

Obviously, various covert agencies around the globe are perfectly capable of manufacturing fake documents that would pass even close inspection, but this is raises the threat of false UK identity documents to a whole new level.

Our national identity documents need to be produced in the UK. It does not matter whether we are in the EU or not. What next? Outsource production of our currency abroad? Might as well outsource our governance. Oh wait...

One Outsider
22nd Mar 2018, 18:49
we are the ones who loyally stick to the rules......

Is that old myth still being peddled ...

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 18:56
Is that old myth still being peddled ...

You mean that we don't stick to the rules either, or that there are other EU members who do, unknown to us ?

Do tell.

One Outsider
22nd Mar 2018, 19:04
If you or Andy really cared, you would have been on the EU Commissions website where you would have seen that the UK have more infringement cases pending than the EU average. You're not at the top when it comes to transposition of EU Directives either.

Highway1
22nd Mar 2018, 19:32
The bottom line of the bid may be lower but, if as a result, De La Rue lay off employes how much does the UK Government lose in Corporation Tax, Income Tax, NI, etc. and have to pay out benefits? Goverments should look at the whole picture - not just concentrate on the apparent up front cost.

And if the government go around paying over the market rate on every contract taxes have to go up and you see businesses laying off staff due to the increased costs.

Fareastdriver
22nd Mar 2018, 19:36
Does anybody know of a petition that you can sign that will reverse this decision?

VP959
22nd Mar 2018, 19:43
Does anybody know of a petition that you can sign that will reverse this decision?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/208170

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 20:14
I'm looking in vain on the Parliament website for the number of signatures required to have a decision reversed. :O

Dan Gerous
22nd Mar 2018, 20:33
Listening to Radio 2 today, the reason the French do their own Passports, is because it is a government department. The Government department that the British Government used to handle this, was privatised years ago. Governments don't have to put their contracts out to tender, privatised companies do. And it isn't going to get any better after Brexit, as it is also a WTO condition. That's the market economy for you.

treadigraph
22nd Mar 2018, 20:37
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/PortalPictures/March2018/2303-MATT-PORTAL-WEB-P1.png?imwidth=300

dook
22nd Mar 2018, 20:47
Once again, Britain will be the laughing-stock of the continent.

Aren't we already ?

ORAC
22nd Mar 2018, 21:47
Considering the number of documents and other books and paperware produced in a year this is minuscule. No jobs will be lost or gained, just a very slight change in profit.

If there is any observation to be made it is that, after Brexit, a cheaper bidder and price might be found in India, the USA or elsewhere outside the EU.

chevvron
22nd Mar 2018, 22:08
Never mind folks. EBay sell passport covers in any colour you like. Just buy one in your favourite shade!
Andy H

Yeah and the immigration officer when you come home either demands you take it out of the cover or wrenches it out themself in an effort to damage it. If you try to use it going through one of the automated machines you have to take it out anyway.

funfly
22nd Mar 2018, 23:41
All this talk about personal privacy when people are content with store-cards that record your every transaction and social media where they share their intimate details, need I go on? Strava will also show where you live.

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 23:47
Strava will also show where you live.

Only if you are stupid enough to turn it on/off at your front door, instead of half a mile down the road.

G-CPTN
23rd Mar 2018, 00:44
Where are the current (UK) passports printed?

LowNSlow
23rd Mar 2018, 01:25
GOULI spot on!

G-CPTN - UK

ATNotts
23rd Mar 2018, 09:29
Made my day yesterday when I heard this.

So now, if you want a "British" passport, you'll need a "European" burgundy one, if you want a "European" (produced) one get a new "British" blue one!!!

The irony is wonderful.

ORAC
23rd Mar 2018, 09:35
gouli and LnS.

The passports supplied are blanks. Personal data on the bio-data page and encrypted data on the bio-chip is only added at the passport office or overseas embassy/consulate when issued and added t9 the national database.

As it is the company has stated that its UK factories in Hayward and Fareham are to be equipped with new facilities to produce the passports with the creation of 70 new jobs.

Andy_S
23rd Mar 2018, 10:20
As it is the company has stated that its UK factories in Hayward and Fareham are to be equipped with new facilities to produce the passports with the creation of 70 new jobs.

So not only did we get the best price for the passport contract. It will also support British jobs.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.........

RAT 5
23rd Mar 2018, 12:14
A few years ago, living outside UK, I had to apply for a renewal via a company in Paris. All EU ex-pats had to do the same. It was possible, if visiting UK, to go to a thinly spread passport office, wait 3 days, and have one issued there. You had to lucky to be near one of these dying breed.
So instead I had to apply via Paris. The application was processed and the passport was printed & dispatched from UK. The cost was 50% higher than within UK. I queried this with HMRC and was told it was due to the costs of the French office and was outside the control of HMRC. I was furious, but helpless, and to make matters worse they made a mistake and short-changed me by 6 months.

pax britanica
23rd Mar 2018, 12:17
As has been the case all along the Mail peddles complete falsehoods about any stroy remotely related tot he EU.

As for helping British jobs its a bit late for that after succesive governments have allowed even encouraged almost all manufacturing to go abroad in the name of the 'best deal' or market forces.

What we are left with is bits and pieces that do not support large scale employment and even where we do have something of a reasonable size, Airbus, Nissan, Honda they are all foreign owned.

As for the Passport issue itself as has been pointed out we could always have kept the blue version (no doubt the Mail would have preferred cardboard ). sdo we want our passports to look like American ones cos that guarantees you getting killed if you are kidnapped by terrorists.

And as for the Mail their ehadlines in the past years including todays make Pravda look like the FT or Sporting Life for accuracy (both publications where spin isnt acceptable) and the tone of their stories is Joseph Goebells at his best, but then as has been point ed out before the Mail back in the day but with the same ownership was a big fan of Herr Goebells and his Fuehrer wasn't it

Andy_S
23rd Mar 2018, 12:31
.....and even where we do have something of a reasonable size, Airbus, Nissan, Honda they are all foreign owned.

For someone decrying Daily Mail readers, you sound a lot like one.

pax britanica
23rd Mar 2018, 12:39
I am not sure how you work that out , I dont decry Daily Mail readers as much as the Daily Mail itself. The Mail succesfully follows a policy of a lot of entertaining and often worthwhile stories and content including good sports and travel but then spouts its poisonous rhetoric on politics .a nasty combination. I cant really see why I in anyway resemble someone who is a fan of the Mail tho as I have been accused of being a Guardian or Indi reader on here as though that were an offence too

Andy_S
23rd Mar 2018, 12:46
I am not sure how you work that out , I dont decry Daily Mail readers as much as the Daily Mail itself.

I would have thought that they were two sides of the same coin, but fair enough. And I don't particularly like the DM's politics either (but they know their audience).

But does it really matter if an employer is foreign owned? As long as they provide jobs and livelihoods.

pax britanica
23rd Mar 2018, 17:28
Andy
Your point is correct in that it doesnt matter if a company is foreign owned so long as.... and there is the catch because companies when they retrench tend to get rid of the foreign bits first . Also as has been shown with Brexit the Japanese car makers in Uk will just close up shop if they cannot sell cars into the EU that are made in Uk and both have put huge pressure on UKGov to help them through any transition issues because they are aware that they have the government up against the wall if they threaten to leave.

So you are right in a general way but in difficult circumstances then being home owned does matter.

Why there is this fuss over passports I cannot imagine as the French, Germans and Spanish seem to own almost the entire infrastructure of the UK anyway; through companies that employ tens of thousands whereas De la Rue employ just 100 people in their passport division . But the Daily Mail have never cared a jot for British workers anyway only about their own evil agenda.

In addition DLR produce passports for lots of other countries so they ca hardly complain that outsourcing passport printing isnt a legitimate business decision can they

KelvinD
23rd Mar 2018, 17:43
Guess where your UK driving licence is produced: Fareham by the same company that just won the contract for the passports!
I agree with all Pax brit says re the Daily Mail. In the 1960s I noticed my father was regularly bringing home the Mail and I asked him why. He said he had no time for the Mail but, along with the Telegraph, they had the best crosswords.
I followed his example and found they were indeed the best crosswords. In the mid 60s, I was on a course to get an Army Class 1 maths ticket. The course was self taught with an Education Corps officer present to help where needed. I spent a lot of my time doing the crosswords until one day, I realised the officer was standing just behind my left shoulder. Eventually, he pulled up a chair and said "I have been watching you for the last week...." and I thought I was for the high jump. Instead, he sat down and said he could never get the Mail crossword so would I please show him how it was done!

Pontius Navigator
23rd Mar 2018, 19:34
And if the government go around paying over the market rate on every contract taxes have to go up and you see businesses laying off staff due to the increased costs.
There is a difference between goods bought in UK and goods bought with foreign currency.

In the former case 20% of labour costs are immediately returned to the Treasury with a further slice in NI. Then a further 20% in VAT. In the latter there are exchange rate losses and a total loss of expenditure. simplified I know but illustrates the point.

Highway1
23rd Mar 2018, 21:34
Andy
Your point is correct in that it doesnt matter if a company is foreign owned so long as.... and there is the catch because companies when they retrench tend to get rid of the foreign bits first . Also as has been shown with Brexit the Japanese car makers in Uk will just close up shop if they cannot sell cars into the EU that are made in Uk and both have put huge pressure on UKGov to help them through any transition issues because they are aware that they have the government up against the wall if they threaten to leave.

So you are right in a general way but in difficult circumstances then being home owned does matter.



We had a home owned car industry - it was a disaster :confused:

Highway1
23rd Mar 2018, 21:35
There is a difference between goods bought in UK and goods bought with foreign currency.

In the former case 20% of labour costs are immediately returned to the Treasury with a further slice in NI. Then a further 20% in VAT. In the latter there are exchange rate losses and a total loss of expenditure. simplified I know but illustrates the point.


The contract is in Sterling - the French company shoulders the FX risk.

pax britanica
23rd Mar 2018, 22:31
We had a home grown car industry that was disastrously managed, it had serious union problems but no more than say Germany or Sweden and much less than France and Italy where the unions of the 60s were properr red fanged Commie versions.

As always the problem in Uk is the City who cannot see further than their next bonus and wont invest in anything that doesnt pay back in 2 years. of course nothing on that scale does.

I do not doubt that there were every serious issues with unions but other Euro countries managed to survive them .

So was it really a disaster or was it just muddle and mis management -we also had an aircraft and ship building industry and all that is left of any is RR and Bombardier Belfast. Airbus Industrie (UK) isnt British since BAe systems another example of awful management decided to sell it so they could concentrate on nuclear subs anti personnel mines and the like .

And when the Yanks put all of the Belfast operation had risk who had the muscle to put them back in the box-well that wd be the EU , we could never have managed that as 'Global Britain'

MG23
24th Mar 2018, 00:14
We had a home grown car industry that was disastrously managed, it had serious union problems but no more than say Germany or Sweden and much less than France and Italy where the unions of the 60s were properr red fanged Commie versions.

The problem is that most British cars of the union era were plain awful. Even the ones that should have been fun were notoriously unreliable.

I remember reading an article by someone who worked on a British TV show in the 70s, and they said British Leyland lent them various cars for the show, but they ended up barely using them because they didn't have the time to fix them when they broke down.

Particularly when the TV unions knocked off work precisely at 5pm.

Even though I always fancied a TR7 as a kid, I'd much rather own a 1970s Italian or German car than just about any mass-market 1970s British car (and have done so).

Highway1
24th Mar 2018, 00:34
We had a home grown car industry that was disastrously managed, it had serious union problems but no more than say Germany or Sweden and much less than France and Italy where the unions of the 60s were properr red fanged Commie versions.

As always the problem in Uk is the City who cannot see further than their next bonus and wont invest in anything that doesnt pay back in 2 years. of course nothing on that scale does.


LOL - you cant blame the City of not wanting to invest in British Industry when the Government taxes you 98% on investment income and 83% on other income.

Would you have invested your own money under those circumstances?

G0ULI
24th Mar 2018, 00:47
The petition to ask the government to reconsider awarding the passport production contract abroad has now reached over 14,500 signatures. The government is now obliged to issue a response.

The second threshold to trigger a parliamentary debate is 100,000 signatures and the petition is scheduled to remain open until September.

There seems a reasonable likelyhood that the second figure will be reached.

Whether that will be sufficient to shock some common sense into those responsible for this fiasco remains to be seen.

ExXB
24th Mar 2018, 14:48
Fancy that, a petition to have the government spend £100-120 million more than necessary.

To compensate, I suppose they could just raise the fees .... again.

Highway1
24th Mar 2018, 14:53
I wonder if that petition says that the Government should raise taxes to support this idea that they should pay more than the market price for products.. somehow I think the level of support would shrink somewhat..

wiggy
24th Mar 2018, 16:30
I wonder if that petition says that the Government should raise taxes to support this idea that they should pay more than the market price for products.. somehow I think the level of support would shrink somewhat..

Not if some of the pundits who used to frequent another thread are to be believed ....in that place there was an often loudly expressed belief that the remainers were the only ones motivated by their “pocket book” (sic).

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Mar 2018, 16:45
It has been pointed out that De La Rue print passports for lots of countries, so if you go round campaigning for passports to be made only in their own country you're hardly helping them are you ...

Kelly Hopper
24th Mar 2018, 20:19
Nobody, in the media or indeed on this thread seems to have yet grasped the irony in the name of the original (British?) company "De La Rue!"

Pontius Navigator
24th Mar 2018, 20:30
The contract is in Sterling - the French company shoulders the FX risk.
You miss the point. True any FX risk will lie with the French company, who will have loaded the contract.

My point is that for an internal contract near 100% of the money involved will remain in country. Through direct and indirect taxes near 40% will be returned directly to the exchequer. Secondary spending will see even more returned .

ExXB
25th Mar 2018, 10:38
What percentage is £100 million of the total contract?

DaveReidUK
25th Mar 2018, 11:16
Nobody, in the media or indeed on this thread seems to have yet grasped the irony in the name of the original (British?) company "De La Rue!"

By rights, they ought to be streets ahead in any contract negotiation.

Krystal n chips
25th Mar 2018, 11:17
Just checked and current passport expires July 24

Which means, it will be unlikely I will have to suffer the dubious privilege of renewing and carrying one ...the Burgundy colour is fine by me.

419
25th Mar 2018, 12:40
Which means, it will be unlikely I will have to suffer the dubious privilege of renewing and carrying one ...the Burgundy colour is fine by me.

Same here.
My passports are kept in passport holders and the only time they are taken out is when I have to hand them to immigration or airline check in staff so the colour of the bits of card on the outside is totally irrelevant to me.

PDR1
25th Mar 2018, 13:53
Just checked and current passport expires July 24

Which means, it will be unlikely I will have to suffer the dubious privilege of renewing and carrying one ...the Burgundy colour is fine by me.

Oh my dear fellow - you only have 4 months to live? My deepest sympathies!

What was it that got you in the end - fags, booze or loose women?

PDR

Fareastdriver
25th Mar 2018, 14:26
The petition to ask the government to reconsider awarding the passport production contract abroad has now reached over 14,500 signatures.

Now over 25000.

Highway1
25th Mar 2018, 14:39
Just watched the rather bizarre interview with Keir Starmer on ITV. We now live in a strange parallel universe where outspoken supporters of EU membership are now saying that we shouldn't follow EU rules and we shouldn't trade with them.... :p

He (Starmer) called on Theresa May and Home Secretary Amber Rudd to visit the factory 'explain to a dedicated workforce why they think this is a sensible decision, to offshore the manufacture of a British icon'.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Mar 2018, 14:51
Oh my dear fellow - you only have 4 months to live? My deepest sympathies!
I interpreted him as meaning that we will have rejoined before he has to renew again in ten years' time.

ORAC
25th Mar 2018, 14:57
And for those that will make a fuss about whatever deal we do concerning fishing in British waters; it will make little, if any, difference.......

Foreigners to net UK fish after Brexit (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/foreigners-to-net-uk-fish-after-brexit-hpf6njhvt)

Britain’s fish will still belong to Europe after Brexit — because Spain, Holland and Iceland have bought up nearly 90% of the entire fishing quota of Wales and more than half the quota assigned to England. Foreign owners of the fishing rights have also set up UK businesses to hold the quota, making meaningful change unlikely after the country leaves the EU.

The revelation is in fishery statistics from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), run by Michael Gove......

Defra’s data reveals that Spanish firms have bought permanent control of 88% of the fish quota for Wales, including whiting, hake, pollock and sole. The quota is used mainly by one vessel, the Armaven Uno, belonging to Armaven (UK), a company whose owners live in Spain. This weekend the 104ft vessel was heading back to the Irish Sea after apparently dropping off a cargo of fish and refuelling in Vigo, Spain.....

A spokesman for Lesley Griffiths, the Welsh environment secretary, said: “Welsh vessel owners — as did Scottish and English — have legitimately sold their boats and quota allocations to UK companies with owners in other EU states.”......

Much of England’s quota has already gone that way. Spanish vessels now control most of the quota from the Bristol Channel to the Scottish border, including vessels operating from the Lancashire port of Fleetwood such as the O Genita and Coyo Tercero, owned by the Vidal family of La Coruña.

On the east coast, Dutch and Icelandic fishing companies dominate. They have created a complex web of firms to own and exploit UK fishing quotas. One ship, the Cornelis Vrolijk, operating from Hull, owns a fifth of England’s entire quota. The ship belongs to the North Atlantic Fishing Company based in Caterham, Surrey, but that firm, which made more than £5.5m profit in 2016, is Dutch and the vessel lands its 35,000 tons of annual catches in Holland.....

Thomas Appleby, a law lecturer at the University of the West of England, said: “England and Wales have mismanaged their fishing quota and Brexit will do nothing to put it right.”

..............................

Just in case you thought Scotland was better off....

EU 'pirates' net our fish: Quotas worth up to £65m are surrendered to trawlers (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679029/EU-pirates-net-our-fish-Quotas-worth-65m-surrendered-trawlers-EU)

THE Scottish Government is handing out British fishing quotas worth millions of pounds to Spanish and Dutch-owned trawlers.

“.......North of the Border, the Marine Scotland quango has given more than 88,000 FQA units to 21 licence holders who are based in either Spain or Holland......

The largest quota belongs to skipper Manuel Otero Eijo, of La Coruna, whose UK-registered trawler Brosme has 14,514 FQA units under two separate licences...... Other valuable quotas belong to Juan Celso Parado, of La Coruna, owner of the Ayr Queen, and Eugenio Regal-Pino, of Lugo, owner of the Brisca trawler..... Two more quotas, for the Inverdale and the Cabo Ortegal trawlers, are co-owned by a La Coruna man named Emilio Arestin Rivas - who describes himself as an "entrepreneur" in documents filed with Companies House.

Three Dutch fishermen from the small fishing town of Urk, on the IJsselmeer north of Amsterdam, also have licences from Marine Scotland. They are Albert and Louwe De Boer, owners of the trawlers Enterprise and Annegina, and Johannes Romkes, owner of the Quo Vadis boat.....

Other Scottish trawlers in Spanish hands have thousands of FQA units allocated by the Marine Management Organisation, the fisheries administration south of the Border. They include the O Genita, registered to a company called Sealskill Ltd at Troon Harbour in Ayrshire and owned by the notorious Vidal family of Spanish fishing barons.....

Highway1
25th Mar 2018, 15:43
ORAC - dont think that has much to do with passports but the present quota system is part of the CFP and as we are leaving the CFP then any quotas under that scheme will be somewhat invalid. ;)

SWBKCB
25th Mar 2018, 17:28
Foreign owners of the fishing rights have also set up UK businesses to hold the quota, making meaningful change unlikely after the country leaves the EU.

A bit like easyJet setting up in Austria?

pax britanica
25th Mar 2018, 18:16
So after we leave the Eu everything will be exactly the same as before when we were in it.

EU countries or companies have bought all our infrastructure

They wont help us with immigration so it will be worse than before

Our over lobbied and dubiously competent or honest parliament will be unable to make any meaningful changes because practicalities of living right next to the EU make it next to impossible and we dont have any money to set up separate regulatory bodies.

We will be taken advantage of trade wise by every prospective partner either because it is obvious we are desperate and dont export anything of real value.

Any trade deals better than the Eu will be met with EU telling country X its us 450M or them 60m -choose

The fishing and passports fiascos are the tip of the iceberg , in one case utter stupidity, the work will be done in UK either way and the 'British'company who the mail etc think should get is called De La Rue !!

The fishing is the usual UK government ineptness in protecting anything, we wont leave the CFP except in name because as has been stated all the boats and associated quotas are EU owned already .

But we will be in control of our own affairs , won't we - handing control to Boris and Rees-Mogg to re create feudal England

Highway1
25th Mar 2018, 19:01
The fishing is the usual UK government ineptness in protecting anything, we wont leave the CFP except in name because as has been stated all the boats and associated quotas are EU owned already .


How can you have a quota on common EU property if we are no longer in the EU? ;)

ricardian
26th Mar 2018, 19:45
Here is one of the first passports produced by the French factory

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29572757_2024125997838230_1111523491552665262_n.jpg?oh=ca2bb 568428f8aab5e7efa5e657dccf4&oe=5B422674

flash8
26th Mar 2018, 21:15
Ye gods, I cannot wait to have that bluey... not.

This whole thing is pathetic. Is that what the nation has been reduced to? Bloody passport colours.

HMS GB is sinking fast.

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Mar 2018, 21:25
HMS GB is sinking fast.
Yes, we know that, it's called #brexit.




*** *** *** BUT *** *** ***




Look at the benefits! BLUE PASSPORTS!!!

Highway1
27th Mar 2018, 00:32
Good old Dianne Abbott making a fool of herself yet again. She complains about the new contract not going to a UK company but it was the last Labour Government who changed the rules that allowed the contract to go abroad and currently 20% of passports are already made out side the UK..

She is a national treasure.. :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXOXxxnEurs

flash8
27th Mar 2018, 00:52
She is a national treasure..

And she well may be next Home Secretary... :ok:

Jetex_Jim
27th Mar 2018, 04:44
https://twitter.com/gerrylynch/status/918422922913607685

Highway1
27th Mar 2018, 14:27
yeah, because no country can survive outside of the EU...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d4/1a/cd/d41acd27aebc836c58f38dee72ca17ea.jpg

Jetex_Jim
27th Mar 2018, 20:34
If survival is enough for you best of luck with the shopping trolley and the rat traps.

treadigraph
27th Mar 2018, 20:45
I've caught three mice already this week, spuds are growing OK...

Rail Engineer
27th Mar 2018, 22:16
Since when has irony every stopped Labour from jumping onto a convenient bandwagon ????

LowNSlow
28th Mar 2018, 18:28
Kelly Hopper De La Rue is a British company formed in 1821 by Mr De La Rue when he arrived in the UK from Guensey.

ShotOne
3rd Apr 2018, 09:03
I’ve no problem with buying stuff from wherever it’s best value but had to laugh at the bit about our having to “follow EU procurement rules” Yes, just like French and German police sometimes buy British cars...

Nemrytter
3rd Apr 2018, 09:07
If people actually read about the rules are rather than reading what the Daily Heil tells them the rules are then we might have a chance of getting somewhere. I despair for the standard of critical thinking in the UK, it's like watching a bunch of chimps trying to do a crossword.

Highway1
3rd Apr 2018, 13:54
I’ve no problem with buying stuff from wherever it’s best value but had to laugh at the bit about our having to “follow EU procurement rules” Yes, just like French and German police sometimes buy British cars...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/b4/cd/8fb4cdc9b4eed3216f5f3ed0d80b03af.png

PC767
3rd Apr 2018, 14:20
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/b4/cd/8fb4cdc9b4eed3216f5f3ed0d80b03af.png

That’s now an Indian vehicle though I think it might have been German (BMW owned) when it was built. Or it could have been American (Ford). I’ve lost track.

Highway1
3rd Apr 2018, 14:34
Well by that argument this is an Italian car..

http://americancarcompany.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Dodge-Ram-1500_12.jpg

It is actually built in Mexico.. ;)

ORAC
18th Apr 2018, 11:26
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/de-la-rue-abandons-passport-appeal-and-warns-on-profit-cmjhn2frk

De La Rue abandons passport appeal and warns on profit

The British banknote and passport publisher De La Rue has abandoned its appeal against the government’s decision to award the UK passports contract to an overseas rival. It has also issued a profit warning, hitting its share price.

De La Rue said that having considered all its options it had decided not to challenge the provisional decision of Her Majesty’s Passport Office to grant the contract to Gemalto, a French-Dutch rival. It said it would “continue to fulfil its existing contract and assist with transition to the new supplier and is therefore expecting no impact on the group’s performance in the next 18 months”.......

Icare9
18th Apr 2018, 11:56
Pity, thought they'd have stood a good chance with the arguments they put forward to retain the contract.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Apr 2018, 12:23
Pity, thought they'd have stood a good chance with the arguments they put forward to retain the contract.
Their lawyers thought otherwise.

Andy_S
18th Apr 2018, 12:31
Pity, thought they'd have stood a good chance with the arguments they put forward to retain the contract.

Why?

On the assumption that the bids were assessed fairly and the lowest priced compliant bid was selected, I really can't see that De La Rue's legal action had much chance of success.

Planemike
18th Apr 2018, 13:53
Pity............!! British passports should be produced by a BRITISH company, if there is one capable of carrying out the work. De la Rue have done the job so let them carry on...

Andy_S
18th Apr 2018, 13:57
De la Rue have done the job so let them carry on...

What? At ANY cost??

Planemike
18th Apr 2018, 14:14
What? At ANY cost??


Yes............. Should point out the Government has just raised the price of passports.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Apr 2018, 19:45
Yes............. Should point out the Government has just raised the price of passports.
If they were real Tories they'd believe in the free market, and let us buy passports from whoever offered the best deal, and not require us to buy them from the government at a fixed price.

old,not bold
18th Apr 2018, 21:16
De La Rue thought they would be awarded the contract regardless of price, as the "traditional" supplier, and therefore over-priced it exactly as they have always done, not deliberately, just not bothering to sharpen their pencils to produce a competitive quote. They have learned the price of complacency the hard way.

It should have been so easy. Quote a high price, get the job regardless just like all the other times, bonuses all round for the Directors, have another drink, old boy.

I have no sympathy, as you can tell.

racedo
18th Apr 2018, 21:37
De La Rue thought they would be awarded the contract regardless of price, as the "traditional" supplier, and therefore over-priced it exactly as they have always done, not deliberately, just not bothering to sharpen their pencils to produce a competitive quote. They have learned the price of complacency the hard way.

It should have been so easy. Quote a high price, get the job regardless just like all the other times, bonuses all round for the Directors, have another drink, old boy.

I have no sympathy, as you can tell.

Ultimately thats what it came down to and Mail's campaign has fallen flat on it ass as De La Rue didn't challenge decision.

old,not bold
19th Apr 2018, 11:37
If you look up the Board for De La Rue, you have a selection of networkers; reading between the lines at least 2 of them have presided over corporate disasters such as Carillion and Microfocus. Other have been management consultants/beancounters** with organisations with form in the field of incompetence such as Deloittes. One of the De La Rue non-execs is, apparently, "Director of people and legal and is a member of the executive board, corporate security board and pensions strategy board" at British Airways, roles that she has few obvious qualifications for, but presumably she finds time for a jolly good lunch every now and again with the rest of the De La Rue board while saying "Yes" when instructed to do so by the Chairman.

** "management consultants/beancounters"; people who couldn't manage a p*****p in a brewery, probably have an MBA, and are frightfully good with spreadsheets as they drive companies into bankruptcy while taking out the cash in fees.

Mr Mac
19th Apr 2018, 13:00
Old not bold
But they have an MBA don,t you know !!!!!

Totally agree with your post.

Regards
Mr Mac

angels
19th Apr 2018, 20:01
Pity............!! British passports should be produced by a BRITISH company, if there is one capable of carrying out the work. De la Rue have done the job so let them carry on...

De La Rue prints passports for 39 other countries (according to today's Times). Looks like they got the tenders right for them.

old,not bold has summed it up very nicely. De La Rue basically priced too high and were correctly rejected. Do you seriously want to be taken to the cleaners by these people?

Fishtailed
20th Apr 2018, 00:29
I have a "Free state of California" passport issued in 1980, and it's blue. ( not tried to use it yet though!)

Fareastdriver
20th Apr 2018, 08:48
De La Rue probably thought that with the 'Brexit' atmosphere they would most certainly get the contract and they could charge what they liked.

eal401
20th Apr 2018, 09:46
De La Rue probably thought that with the 'Brexit' atmosphere they would most certainly get the contract and they could charge what they liked.

Bingo - you got it in one. And they had already started to let staff members from the UK passport project go before they announced they were dropping the appeal.

Sadly it seems that their CEO isn't planning to step down - despite the fact that he should be first in line to do so having progressively stripped the company of its capabilities over the last couple of years - e.g. selling off the Overton paper mill. It'll be the second company/major business unit he has set on the path to near destruction in the last few years. How business media/finance analysts turn a blind eye to it is beyond me.

Training Risky
20th Apr 2018, 10:25
I just don't get how awarding the contract to a foreign company who bid the lowest, (presumed that Gemalto will pay no corporation tax in UK, the bulk of this money will go to French/Dutch shops) is preferable to awarding to De La Rue who may have bid higher, but will be taxed to the hilt by our punitive tax system, ensuring that proportionately more corporation tax and income tax and VAT will flow back into the UK?

Is it just me?

Sallyann1234
20th Apr 2018, 10:40
https://twitter.com/Villavelius/status/919240192371945473

Andy_S
20th Apr 2018, 10:51
I just don't get how awarding the contract to a foreign company who bid the lowest, (presumed that Gemalto will pay no corporation tax in UK, the bulk of this money will go to French/Dutch shops) is preferable to awarding to De La Rue who may have bid higher, but will be taxed to the hilt by our punitive tax system, ensuring that proportionately more corporation tax and income tax and VAT will flow back into the UK?

You are aware that although Gemalto are French / Dutch, they will use British factories to produce the passports?

Planemike
20th Apr 2018, 13:26
I just don't get how awarding the contract to a foreign company who bid the lowest, (presumed that Gemalto will pay no corporation tax in UK, the bulk of this money will go to French/Dutch shops) is preferable to awarding to De La Rue who may have bid higher, but will be taxed to the hilt by our punitive tax system, ensuring that proportionately more corporation tax and income tax and VAT will flow back into the UK?

Is it just me?


No, I too feel de la Rue, a British company, should have been awarded the contract to produce British passports.

eal401
20th Apr 2018, 14:07
I just don't get how awarding the contract to a foreign company who bid the lowest, (presumed that Gemalto will pay no corporation tax in UK, the bulk of this money will go to French/Dutch shops) is preferable to awarding to De La Rue who may have bid higher, but will be taxed to the hilt by our punitive tax system, ensuring that proportionately more corporation tax and income tax and VAT will flow back into the UK?

Is it just me?

Perhaps you can show us a fully costed comparison? The Gemalto bid was £120m less than De La Rue (and will use facilities and workers in the UK) - how much corporation tax/VAT/PAYE would awarding De La Rue the contract have earned the Treasury? Remember - corporation tax is levied on profits, not the contract value.

eal401
20th Apr 2018, 14:09
No, I too feel de la Rue, a British company, should have been awarded the contract to produce British passports.

So, by that "logic" all the contracts they currently have to produce passports and currency for non-British countries - i.e. most of their business - should immediately be terminated.

Training Risky
20th Apr 2018, 14:24
So, by that "logic" all the contracts they currently have to produce passports and currency for non-British countries - i.e. most of their business - should immediately be terminated.

No - because they are doing good business for the UK. If smaller countries can't produce their own passports and outsource to De La Rue because they don't have the infrastructure - that's tough for Botswana & Maldives and good for the UK!

It's great that Gemalto will allow some of the money from the contract to be invested in factories/wage packets in the UK - that's very generous of them and I feel honoured...

But when it comes to awarding a high-profile contract with national security implications - we should have done what the French do and ignore EU bidding rules. FFS we will be out of this mess in a year and the EU will be in our rear-view.

Heathrow Harry
20th Apr 2018, 14:32
DLR make a lot of money (literally) printing all sorts of documents and cash for people all over the world - the Newcastle Airport thread often records the regular Airbus from there to Kuwait loaded with notes...........

Sallyann1234
20th Apr 2018, 14:37
But when it comes to awarding a high-profile contract with national security implications - we should have done what the French do and ignore EU bidding rules. FFS we will be out of this mess in a year and the EU will be in our rear-view.
What national security implications?
Gemalto will only produce blank passports, just as de la Rue do now.

Training Risky
20th Apr 2018, 14:47
The whole supply chain for UK passports is currently in the UK, from paper to the printed book with its personalisation and security features. You mess with that, there's a chance (however small) for foreign intelligence service tampering.

The French are very good at using state aid to prop up their companies and undercut other bidders, and that's what they have done here.

Andy_S
20th Apr 2018, 14:51
What national security implications?
Gemalto will only produce blank passports, just as de la Rue do now.

And they will also be contractually obliged to offer the same level of security as De la Rue.

Why should the fact that they are French / Dutch make their processes and premises any less secure than a British company?

The French are very good at using state aid to prop up their companies and undercut other bidders, and that's what they have done here.

Really? I assume you have some evidence for that......

ATNotts
20th Apr 2018, 14:51
The whole supply chain for UK passports is currently in the UK, from paper to the printed book with its personalisation and security features. You mess with that, there's a chance (however small) for foreign intelligence service tampering.

The French are very good at using state aid to prop up their companies and undercut other bidders, and that's what they have done here.

British companies, and those from other nations too, are also very good at taking existing customers for granted, and believing that familiarity and a lack of willingness to change supplier allows them to make a bit more from the job when the tender comes up.

In a minute scale, this is why I have to change my energy supplier and insurance companies every couple of years.

On a larger scale it's how come the big logistics companies regularly lose contracts with the major car manufacturers for distribution centre operations.

funfly
20th Apr 2018, 17:17
Of course the campaign for "British passports must be made in Britain" is run by the Daily Mail - owned by a multi millionaire who is resident in............er France.