Engine failure on take off roll, RTO then ....

[Pin Head]

Hi

Assuming no fire indication, heard many sudebquent actions but what do you do???

vacate?
Stop on runway on for brakes, check brake cooling schedule?
request assistance

Should be interesting to see what everyone does. Just looking at brake YouTube videos most actual events people just see me to vacate and go from their disregarding any brake cooling implications.

Thanks

Pin

[Piltdown Man]

Execute the stop. Turn into wind if necessary. Apply the parking brake. Get people to stay seated. Gather information and react accordingly. But if the problem is considered to be a “return to stand” one, modify your braking to aim for an exit. Braking cooling schedules and brake temperatures are dealt with after arrival on stand.

PM

[Pin Head]

It's more about the brake cooling that I am interested in.

Personally would never se the parking brake unless you about t throw them out.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Depends on type and the guidance from the manufacturer.

FWIW - B737 - the guidance notes in the Brake cooling schedule state words to the effect that "when in fuse plug melt zone, clear the runway immediately, do not set the park brake unless necessary and wait at least an hour............"

Given that the brakes will be hot/very hot, there is a possibility of one or more tyres going with a bang, and when they blow, they blow a long way, find somewhere remote to park and make sure nobody approaches your aeroplane for quite some time.

[wiggy]

Depends on type and the guidance from the manufacturer.
.

Agreed ..ours (777) is to stop ASAP on the runway, apply parking brake....assess, decide etc...only if an evac is not on the cards do we taxi off and then consider stopping again with brakes off......

[RAT 5]

FWIW - B737 - the guidance notes in the Brake cooling schedule state words to the effect that "when in fuse plug melt zone, clear the runway immediately, do not set the park brake unless necessary and wait at least an hour............"

Love it. SOP in some companies is RTO = Park Brake set; analyse the problem; take action as required; further reassess; etc. etc.

The time taken to then calculate the brake cooling schedule to see if you are in the fuse plug melt zone...........I suspect there are many who could not do it in the relaxed state of a classroom, never mind the stresses caused by a high speed RTO. Good game.

In previous companies the whole RTO scenario is taught really piss poorly. It is a tick in the box exercise. Low speed LVO RTO & higher speed RTO, followed by evac. Every 6 months, that's it. Educationally quite useless.
I've only had one RTO and for the most bizarre and inexplicable reasons. It was at 90-100kts on a 2200m dry runway. Lots of tarmac ahead. It seemed daft to follow the SOP RTO of keeping the brakes in RTO auto mode and TR's in full detent until stopping within half the runway, and then having to put power on to vacate 300m ahead. IMHO there really needs to be less trained monkey and more education. Trained monkey is great on a dark nasty night in a worse case scenario. Training kicks in. Excellent. But there are times when it is not appropriate and yet some are being trained there is no discretion. Hm?

[mcdhu]

As posted elsewhere on this website regarding high energy stops, if you have time, search the U.K. AAIB website for an incident to G-OOAB at TLV in the middle of the night.
They stopped justifiably from close to V1 at MTOW/M - the aftermath was not easy.
Your plugs are going to blow - you just don’t know when.
Some RFFSs (I saw them in Germany) have huge cooling fans they can deploy from their fire engines which do the trick much quicker than brake fans can.
Like all these things which are difficult to train for, they call for cool, level headed, experienced driven DM. No easy answers.
Cheers,
mcdhu

[flyboyike]

Hi

Assuming no fire indication, heard many sudebquent actions but what do you do???

vacate?
Stop on runway on for brakes, check brake cooling schedule?
request assistance

Should be interesting to see what everyone does. Just looking at brake YouTube videos most actual events people just see me to vacate and go from their disregarding any brake cooling implications.

Thanks

Pin

Are we in a Seminole or an A380?

[wiggy]

It is just possible that some operators procedures and culture with regard to RTOs are coloured by this observation...

It is vital that in future operators and ATC services recognise that all abandoned take-offs and emergency landings should end in a full stop on a runway. Only then can a full evaluation of the situation be undertaken by the crew with the assistance of ATC and the fire services

Initially the crew involved in the accident that led to the above statement rejected the take off thinking they might have been dealing with "simply" a burst tyre or a bird strike..it sadly wasn't that simple or straightforward and ultimately 55 people died..

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422efe840f0b61342000277/8-1988_G-BGJL.pdf

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

It appears that some might have believed that I intimated that after an RTO we should immediately vacate the runway etc etc. I had assumed that we would all be aware of the diagnose and deal with the issue should memory actions be required prior to vacating, however it would appear not, so, for clarity -

RTO event -

1-Stop
2-Diagnose and deal with the event
3-Evacuate if necessary. If not see previous guidance.

[Flying Torquewrench]

IMHO there really needs to be less trained monkey and more education. Trained monkey is great on a dark nasty night in a worse case scenario. Training kicks in. Excellent. But there are times when it is not appropriate and yet some are being trained there is no discretion. Hm?

Completely agree with you. I was unlucky and had 4 RTO’s in the space of two weeks just after getting my command. Apart from one, all were serious issues that would effect flight safety. However none of them would require an evacuation or attendance of emergency services.

They were all on >3000 metres runways and I just closed the thrustlevers, disconnected the autobrake and let the aircraft roll to a convenient exit. (Which was in the last third of the runway). We vacated the runway and I had a quick word with the cabin crew and passengers.

Nothing was ever heard from the company regarding my modified procedure. However quite a few colleagues told me that I should have carried out the standard SOP without thinking about it. I don’t understand the logic behind this. Yes, if you have a serious issue or you are not sure what is going on then of course, bring it to a halt asap and investigate. In our case it was obvious what the problems were and no further troubleshooting was required.

In my opinion this is were training sometimes misses its mark. We are so used to practicing high speed RTO’s or very slow speed RTO’s. Normally with an engine failure but hardly ever with an issue which manifests itself at about 80-100 kts. Even then most people will carry out the standard RTO SOP in the sim as they can’t fail you for being extra ‘safe’.

At my new company we just got an email saying that we have no discretion and every RTO must be carried out in accordance with SOP. No discretion allowed and an RTO from 20 kts needs to be treated the same as an RTO from 140 kts. Complete madness but it is their train set.

[FlyingStone]

Nothing was ever heard from the company regarding my modified procedure. However quite a few colleagues told me that I should have carried out the standard SOP without thinking about it. I don’t understand the logic behind this. Yes, if you have a serious issue or you are not sure what is going on then of course, bring it to a halt asap and investigate. In our case it was obvious what the problems were and no further troubleshooting was required.

It is very obvious for you that your RTO was for something benign and you can more than easily stop within the remaining runway distance. However, your colleagues at the back don't know that and on top they have their own actions they need to do in case of RTO. And there needs to be some kind of trigger for them to complete their RTO actions (i.e. aircraft comes to a complete stop, "cabin crew standby", etc).

You could very efficiently just close the thrust levers, disarm the autobrake, nicely roll off a high speed taxiway, do a single engine taxi on the way in and park it on the stand. Yes, very efficient, less drama for pax, but cabin crew will have no idea what has happened and what/when to do.

Why not bring it nicely to a stop, set the brakes, advise the cabin crew and ATC, check everything in case you missed something, taxi off the runway and everybody is happy. The runway will be most likely closed for inspection after the RTO anyway, so you're not doing anybody any big favours by vacating rapidly and I'm guessing you can do all this in a minute or so - no big deal even if they keep the runway open.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Why not bring it nicely to a stop, set the brakes, advise the cabin crew and ATC, check everything in case you missed something, taxi off the runway and everybody is happy.

Exactly, unless you have separate procedures to follow then go with the book on this one for the sake of everybody's SA not just your own.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Why not bring it nicely to a stop, set the brakes, advise the cabin crew and ATC, check everything in case you missed something, taxi off the runway and everybody is happy. The runway will be most likely closed for inspection after the RTO anyway, so you're not doing anybody any big favours by vacating rapidly and I'm guessing you can do all this in a minute or so - no big deal even if they keep the runway open.

FlyingStone, fortunately in our Cabin Crew procedures it specifically stated that the pilots might reject a take-off for minor issues or on instruction by ATC. If this was the case then it was up to the Captain to either alert the Cabin Crew or wait for a more suitable time. The Cabin Crew would still mentally go through their drills but would wait for an instruction from the flight deck.

Based on that I complied with all Cabin Crew SOPs and didn’t leave them wondering what was going on for any longer then required.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Flying torque wrench, Having said that..if anything had been incorrect in that split second assessment and you got it wrong and did not follow SOP you are hung drawn and quartered with no one coming to help. Looking forwad I'd be inclined to go with what company say purely to cover ass.

TangoAlphad, not disagreeing with this at all. In my case the diagnosis was simple and straight forward (no airspeed indication on the PFD). If it hadn’t been this clear from the beginning then you haven’t got a choice but to stop the aircraft asap.

[RAT 5]

A.N.C. but don't wait unnecessarily long with the C, seems to be what you are saying.