Getting your first job

[Flying Leprechaun]

This goes out to anyone who has recently obtained their ATPL(frozen)/IR and is now looking for work.
The questions are: do you think you will find work with just the hours from getting your licence and if not how are you intending to build them?
Also, do you know which companies tend to be sympathetic towards pilots with low hours?

Regards, FL

[FI]

Getting a job is all about standing out from the masses. There are 100s of 200 hrs CPL/IR, every week Oxford, Cabair and SFT churn them out.

You will read on these pages about some people who get lucky and pick up a job soon after they finish. More wait and try to stay current. Many give up.

I instruct, 50-90 hrs a month in the log book and now the sun shines the money is better.

That airline job is heading my way, having over 1000 hrs in the log book will help.

Airlines want the best qualified pilots they can get for the least possible money. Airlines are in business to make money not help young pilots build careers.

So, if you are looking for sympathy try the dictionary, you will be hard placed to find it in the airline industry.

Sorry, not the answers you were looking for.

[Flying Leprechaun]

I understand what your saying F1. I had considered instructing as well, but the cost on top of all the standard training had made me wonder if there are any other ways to get free, or at least cheap, hours in my log book. Any suggestions on this topic greatfully recieved.
Regards, FL

[Ennie]

I obtained my rating in Feb and was very lucky to contact a certain airline on the day I did, I was interviewed and sim checked within two weeks and I start in Aug. If this had not been the case I would have seriously considered instructing, you get to build hours and get paid, the first being the more important in some ways. I have friends who have less than 200 hours who managed to get on the ATP scheme, now on 757's & 737's, although this seems incredible it happens quite a bit. Some airlines do interview people with low hours just to give them a chance, and if there good, they get in. All the very best.

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"Keep The F*****G Ball In The Middle"!!!

[Flying Leprechaun]

Thanks Ennie, instructing may be the only solution. However, if anyone out there knows anything about: air taxi, glider towing, parachutists, ferry work..........etc. anything that could get hours without the expense of the instructors course please reply. Are these viable options? How many hours do you need?
Regards, FL

[Jetheat]

Well, what can I say. I've posted this before but since you ask, I'll give the lowdown again.

I have completed an ATPL in the US as well as in the UK.

I saved up £14,000 in the UK by slogging my ar$e off doing 12 hour shifts continuously for two years. Sold off everything. Got the 14k and said to my mum "See u in three years time". Off to sunny Florida I went.

As I was dedicated to learning how to fly, I spent all my time studying and flying. I became an Instructor within 8 months and by that time I had about $1000 left in my account. The 14k went towards flying and living. The best thing about flying in the States was that my 14k went a long way.
As soon as I had my Instructors licence, I started to instruct and make money. As we all know, an Instructors pay is never enough; I went to the local supermarket and got a job as a Camera Development person. This allowed me to pay for the rent whilst I built up my hours towards gaining an FAA ATPL.

As soon as I got the FAA ATPL, I returned to London, England after 3 long years. (Boy, I was glad to be back).

Now I had no money and yet I had to find a way to convert my FAA licence to a CAA one. How on earth are u meant to do that without borrowing money.
This is where luck came in: I found a job paying roughly £200-£300 per day.
So I worked on the weekends and on weekdays whenever I could whilst I started my ATPL Ground Studies at the London Guildhall University.
Of course, the studies were 5 times harder than what I had learnt in the States. The English CAA (now JAA) exams are very stringent. It wasn't just a case of memorising the book and then giving your test the next day with a 99% pass (as in the States).
In the UK, it was pure hardcore studying. U have to know your material. This is what diffrentiates the men from the boys, The amount and type of knowledge u possess!

However, after about 7-8 months, I had all the ground work out of the way and now it was onto the flying.
The scariest thought about flying in England is the cost. Especially if you fail and have to redo the whole exam again with more Instruction. The Seneca hire is approximately £4 a minute - About £300-£400 per flight. What happens when u are so near the exam and your money runs out? This was the predicament. Luckily, I passed before the money ran out (Thank God). I don't know what I would have done otherwise.
Well, after passing all the Ground and Flight exams, I was absolutely elated. I was now ready to tell all the airlines that I possesed a CAA and an FAA ATPL giving me the best of both worlds. How wrong was I?

I found out the hard way. Nobody cares if you have an FAA ATPL. They hardly care if you have a CAA one either. I believe its more about the type of time you have.

After I passed, I sent a perfect CV to virtually every single airline in the UK. Hell, I even bought a great presenter and sent the CV in that, incurring more expense.

Sadly, letter after letter, rejection after rejection, I didn't get anywhere.
I kept asking myself, I have 1550 hours, whats wrong with these people? Are they blind? Even people with less hours are being called up.
Eventually I got a break and I was called for an Interview with Aer Lingus.
Unfortunately, do to my actions or attitude at the interview, I was refused the job.
So I promised myself from that point onwards that, if ever I had another interview, I would conduct myself with the highest integrity and that I would ace the Interview.
I kept waiting and waiting. Nothing at all. Nothing.
After waiting for another 13 months, (13 MONTHS), I got called to City Flyer.
I aced the Interview but they said that I could only proceed to the Sim stage if I went and renewed my IR. This was another huge expense I had to go through. However, since flying is what it's all about, I went and renewed my IR for a cost of £1200. (Exam alone was £800). Went I went for the Sim Check, I could tell, the Sim Examiner's behaviour, was not favourable to a young first timer. On top of that, I made a mistake in the sim by turning the wrong way which of course, led to my failure.
Not giving up, I continued my search and lo behold, after 2 months, another interview with KLM uk.
This time I decided not to tell anyone about my Interview until I had a result from the airline.

I passed the Interview and I passed the Sim Check 2 weeks later.

At that time, I was the happiest person in the world. All your training and efforts flashe before your very eyes. 3 years in America, 1 year in UK training/conversion and then 20 months of hard frustration and waiting. This was the moment I had been waiting for, for so long. 4 years of hard work had just paid off! Imagine how you would feel. So now, at this stage, I have just finished the Type Rating (provided by KLM uk) and I am awaiting Line Training. I can't thank KLM uk enough for giving me this opportunity and I definately wont let them down coz this is what I've been wanting to do all along. And now that I have it, I wont let go!

[BAlite]

JETHEAT, congrats on the job, well done & best of luck for the future!

[Flyingspaniard]

Im in exactly the same boat and have had rejection after rejection. Same old story - not enough hours. However, I spoke to some people at various airlines who have said they don't want some guy with 2000 hrs in a Cessna they want quality jet time even if its only some guy with 500 hrs total. Where are you gonna find someone in that position?

I really can't see anyway of making yourself stand out from the rest unless you spend yet more money on further training. And even then there is no one willing to guarantee that they will give you a job.

It is sickening that no other career out there would require someone to fork out 40,000 to train and still ask for you to complete a selection process to prove that you are commited and won't waste there money!! What a joke!!!

[piperindian]

It really sux.
Jar atpl, 500h, 100 multi, cant even get an interview. I sent hundreds of cvs in the last 9 months to british and european companies. You would be amazed at the requirements (often 1500h with heavy jet and type rating). Suceeded atpl theory and flight checks with colors, never failed checkride.
Nobody tells you that when you start, on the contrary. Dont count on greedy flight schools either.
A jar atpl with 500h is already a lot of effort. Its a bit crazy. with my experience i would get an interview in any other industry. but this is professional aviation !
The problem is purely one of supply and demand. There are too many pilots on the market.

[STALL_TURN]

I know it's an unwelcome extra cost but I recommend you get an instructors rating, not only for the hours & experience you'll get but more inportantly for the contacts you'll make. Getting a job in aviation is a lot to do with who you know, not what you know.
Working as an instructor you'll make valuable contacts, airlines especially regional airines tend not to advertise but instead recruit from word of mouth.
GOOD LUCK.

[luvly jubbly]

Jist done FI(A). Hoping to God it helps!!

[Katoi]

Jetheat

Well done on the job.

With regard to the Cityflyer sim ride, I just wish to correct one point. John Kelly and Ian Slight (whom I believe carried out your check) were very favourable to young, low hour pilots provided they are of high quality and have the right attitude.

I am sure you just had a bad day as we all can. But please do not blame other people for your mistakes.

You may be interested to know that neither of the above gentlemen have any responsibility for future recruitment for this outfit since it no longer exists.

Good luck