Back in the day....

[John Nichol]

Can anyone help me with this:
When I joined in 1981, it was official policy that if a female got pregnant, she had to leave the RAF. Not sure we called it "firing" back then but I am sure this was the case?

Secondly, nattering to another old hand earlier, I was told that if a WRAF got married she also had to leave - I seem to remember something along those lines but was this the case?

[MPN11]

My ex-Admin Sec wife confirmes both of those.

We married in 1980 with no problem on either front!

[Pontius Navigator]

Can anyone help me with this:
When I joined in 1981, it was official policy that if a female got pregnant, she had to leave the RAF. Not sure we called it "firing" back then but I am sure this was the case?

Secondly, nattering to another old hand earlier, I was told that if a WRAF got married she also had to leave - I seem to remember something along those lines but was this the case?

John, in about 1988 WRAF were permitted to remain in Service when pregnant. This led to an immediate problem of maternity wear. Once things reached a certain stage they would go on leave. After pregnancy leave they would be screened from OOA for 12 months. I was told by a Sgt pers admin that it was virtually certain an OOA assignment would follow as soon as the 12 month screening ended 'to test commitment'.

[Pontius Navigator]

I am not sure about the married and out rule.

I do know of two cases where an officer married an OR. In one case he was an ex-AEOp, maybe even ex-airman, so marrying 'below his class' was not an issue. His marriage was discouraged and it was made clear his wife was not welcomed in the Mess. This was 1968. I met him about 2005, he was still serving as RAFR.

The other case, same station, same senior officers, and again discouraged against marriage. They made his life so difficult, Vulcan captain, that he was forced out. He then got his majority in the TA. Still married 50 years on.

1975 very definitely married WRAF quite common (but not pregnant).

[Wensleydale]

I had heard "back in the day", that an officer had become engaged to a non-commissioned WAAF who left the service just before their summer wedding. Unfortunately, she used to work for the PMC who refused the officer permission to bring her to the Summer Ball until they were formally married. The result was that the said officer went into the local town and hired a couple of "escorts" to accompany him to the Mess for the function - with one on each arm, he went to the PMC's group and introduced them to him in front of the local dignitaries, adding why he had to bring these two girls who were allowed to attend and not his fiancé.

[Army Mover]

When I ran the Air-Booking centre in Berlin (79), the WAAF's who found themselves in the family way were ship backed to the UK pdq, you could always spot them as the RAF(G) medical authority to travel and the destination was always the same.

The consensus (we were never told) was they were being discharged and the speed of moving them was to give them as much time as possible to sort out the rest of their lives.

[Wrathmonk]

Not sure about that the 'married and out' rule - didn't it go along the lines of if they got married they had the opportunity to leave straight away, if they chose, and with no need to work out any sort of notice (i.e. the variable PVR wait time).

I heard a rumour (and please, please someone confirm it to be true!) that when the WRAF regulations were merged with the RAF ones one that was previously meant for females only and slipped through the net was the "option to leave on marriage". A number of (male) pilots who were serving "punishment" tours (i.e. had PVR'd at a time when the 'notice' period was 3 years) at RAF Valley managed to leave straight away (pretty much overnight if the jungle drums were right) before the admin wallahs managed to close the loop.:E

[vascodegama]

and not his fiancé.


Very modern for the day!

[John Nichol]

Many thanks for all these replies.
There does seem to be a bit of disagreement about the "having to leave on marriage" aspect?
MPN11 - can your wiser half confirm that WRAFs actually had to leave on marriage? A few contributors seem to say there were married WRAFs and as I look back, I do seem to recall this?

[k3k3]

I knew a married couple who were riggers on 20 Sqn in 1977, CPL/SACW, she had had the option to leave on marriage, and would be discharged if she fell pregnant. She also had the option of leaving at 28 days notice if she so desired, she threatened to exercise this option when the Flt Sgt put them on opposite shifts so they would never see each other. There was no chain of command conflict as he was on rectifications and she was working on the line doing A/Fs, B/Fs etc.

[roving]

My step mother was a Flying Officer when she and my father married in the early 1960's. She was subsequently promoted.

In 1971, when my half brother was born, she "retired". In 1980 she was reinstated with her seniority backdated to 1973. In 1984 she was promoted to Sqn Ldr. She retired (at her own request) in 1987, to take-up a post as a public school bursar.

The only negative aspects of her marriage and pregnancy were:

(1) to get a posting to and remain at Shawbury for a decade she had to switch from GD to Secretarial Branch and forgo further promotion as long as she remained in that post;

(2) she always thought she if had not spent most of the 1970s "flower arranging" she would have progressed much further.

[gearontheglide]

John, in about 1988 WRAF were permitted to remain in Service when pregnant. This led to an immediate problem of maternity wear. Once things reached a certain stage they would go on leave. After pregnancy leave they would be screened from OOA for 12 months. I was told by a Sgt pers admin that it was virtually certain an OOA assignment would follow as soon as the 12 month screening ended 'to test commitment'.

PN, I think it might have been a little later than that. When Mrs Glide fell with our first in 1991, we were both serving in Germany. She was told she could only stay in as long as she could wear a uniform. Funny old thing, clothing stores had no maternity uniforms at all. Luckily she was a PMRAFNS and handy with a needle so ever expanding white dresses were soon worn much to the annoyance of the Wegberg heirachy! She was also one of the first, if not the first to recieve maternity benefits in the services. Her SSC was up not long after Glidette was born so the question of going back to work never came up.

[Cows getting bigger]

John, I joined about the same time as you and the married WRAF scenario was certainly OK. At the same time, pregnancy = P45.

I married the current Mrs CGB in Summer 1994. At the time I was a flt lt and she was a Sgt. There was a significant amount of murmuring from my line-management but her side was fully supportive. However, a few conversations with Innsworth clearly indicated that life was going to be difficult. We would never serve together on the same station and, if we wanted a quarter, it would be at a third unrelated unit.

Anyway, Mrs CGB chose to leave the RAF on marriage and never looked back. Their loss, massively; she has achieved far more in the intervening 24 years than I have, in or out of the service.

PS. I remember chatting with a WRAF legal wg cdr in the mid-90s who had been representing the RAF in cases where various women had challenged the pregnancy rule having lost potential earnings. She told me that the standard opening line in claims was that the discharged individual would have reached the maximum rank attainable within their specialisation which, as officers, was never lower than one-star.

[airpolice]

I arrived at Valley in March 1974 and there were only two serving females on the station.

One was a formidable and capable Sgt. who worked in Gen Office and was married to a Chief Tech on the Hunter line. I may be mistaken on their details, but I'm confident I am in the right field there.


The other was Tina, the lovey daughter of the Padre, and she was married to Rick P-E. Tina was not only a decent controller, but a nice person.

Her placement in the scheme of things meant we had three toilets in the tower; marked as Ladies, Gents & Officers.

Different times.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gearon. You are correct, Brain fade. It was after my tour at Finningley when I flew with John N's other half, and at Waddo circa 91/92.

[Tankertrashnav]

Mrs TTN was a QARANC nursing sister before we married in 1969. Not only did she have to leave the army on marriage, but I had to write a formal letter to her matron at BMH Hong Kong requesting permission to marry her!

[just another jocky]

John, in about 1988 WRAF were permitted to remain in Service when pregnant. This led to an immediate problem of maternity wear. Once things reached a certain stage they would go on leave. After pregnancy leave they would be screened from OOA for 12 months. I was told by a Sgt pers admin that it was virtually certain an OOA assignment would follow as soon as the 12 month screening ended 'to test commitment'.

Hmmmm....I was listening in on the phone call my PMRAFNS wife made to her Wg Cdr deskie to say she was pregnant and leaving the service when he said that "today" they had changed the rules and she could stay if she wanted.


My son was born in Jan '91 so the telephone conversation took place somewhere mid-'90.

[MPN11]

Many thanks for all these replies.
There does seem to be a bit of disagreement about the "having to leave on marriage" aspect?
MPN11 - can your wiser half confirm that WRAFs actually had to leave on marriage? A few contributors seem to say there were married WRAFs and as I look back, I do seem to recall this?
She says, succinctly, “yes”. It would have been done away somewhere between 1972 and 1980, when we (both officers) got married. Someone will prove her wrong, if they dare!!

As an aside, a fellow ATCO of mine at Strubby married an airwoman. No idea how that panned out, as I was posted.

[John Nichol]

Cheers MPN - I was convinced a couple of WRAFs I served alongside as a young JT/Cpl 82-86 had to leave when they announced they were pregnant. But in the words of Mrs Clinton, I must have "mis-remembered".

[chevvron]

Ex Girlfriend of mine was a Flt Off in PMRAFNS at Wroughton and taliking to her on the phone one day, she told me that 'xxxxx (anothr Flt Off) had to leave because she married a Noncom'. Must've been about 1980 time.

[MPN11]

Cheers MPN - I was convinced a couple of WRAFs I served alongside as a young JT/Cpl 82-86 had to leave when they announced they were pregnant. But in the words of Mrs Clinton, I must have "mis-remembered".
That may have been the pregnancy clause, of course. Marriage doesn’t necessarily cause pregnancy!!

[Herod]

Marriage doesn’t necessarily cause pregnancy!!

NOW he tells me!

[Fareastdriver]

What does?

[airpolice]

I'm so old, that I remember when pregnancy caused marriage.

[NutLoose]

I knew a married couple who were riggers on 20 Sqn in 1977, CPL/SACW, she had had the option to leave on marriage, and would be discharged if she fell pregnant. She also had the option of leaving at 28 days notice if she so desired, she threatened to exercise this option when the Flt Sgt put them on opposite shifts so they would never see each other. There was no chain of command conflict as he was on rectifications and she was working on the line doing A/Fs, B/Fs etc. Correct the only, the only SACW at RAF Odiham in the late 70's worked in SHQ and she was married to one of the JT's on the chinook side of 240 OCU, there being no single WRAF accomodation

It was only in the 80's that they were required to carry muskets too?, before that i think it was optional.



..

[The Oberon]

I seem to remember, late 60s, that there were 2 types of WRAF service. There was the regular living in the block type, but there were also Locally Employed Airwomen, who lived with their serving husbands and did an 8-5 job with no strings, duties etc, attached. If there were vacancies they would follow their husbands on posting. I even knew one who went with her husband to AKR and was locally employed out there. I also seem to remember that, on marriage, a regular type could become Locally Employed, thereby not having to leave.

[vascodegama]

If memory serves, there was a short period during which MOD was slow in reacting to a change in European Law which meant that some ladies were due compensation for having to leave. Funny how they were all going to make VSO level!

[airpolice]

I seem to remember, late 60s, that there were 2 types of WRAF service. There was the regular living in the block type, but there were also Locally Employed Airwomen, who lived with their serving husbands and did an 8-5 job with no strings, duties etc, attached. If there were vacancies they would follow their husbands on posting. I even knew one who went with her husband to AKR and was locally employed out there. I also seem to remember that, on marriage, a regular type could become Locally Employed, thereby not having to leave.

Known in the 70s as "Locally Purchased" staff.

[Pontius Navigator]

Finningley was 'manned' with LEAW. One, used to work weekends at Marham. She was from Barnsley, which accounted for her nickname.

[BEagle]

As Flt Cdts in 1968, during our early lectures concerning 'customs of the service', we were told that one was not permitted to have a relationship with a WRAF office on the same station :rolleyes: . But in those days there were many more stations, so a convenient posting might solve that Victorian nonsense.

About 9 years later, I was at Biggin Hill for aircrew reselection, having bonged the Bucc OCU. Rather than take gardening leave, I worked in SHQ which was quite fun at the time - 'march outs' never had it so easy, much to DOE's chagrin. But one of the officers there was in a relationship with a WRAF officer who lived in the OM - and was under the watchful eye of some ancient old biddy Air Cdre who was Queen Bee* who guarded the virtue of her 'girls' like some Mother Superior. If the couple wanted to go out for a drink or dinner, they had to leave independently and meet up when safely out of her view...

A good thing that the Queen Bee never found out that the number of aircrew doing reselection was complemented every few weeks by fighter controllers who'd bonged their courses - most of whom were female...:E

There was much frowning and wagging of fingers if any 10 Sqn officer should form a relationship with an ALM or (female - this was before Pink Wednesday) steward - after the bollocking letters and interviews, if the relationship persisted, then one or other would be required to leave - even in the early '80s! One chap and his ex-ALM wife had their "Though shalt not" letters framed and hanging in their MQ - much to the fury of any pompous SO who happened to see them. Style!

*For younger readers, 'Queen Bee' = O i/c WRAF. Many a phone directory was amended so that 'Station bike store' had the same phone number....

[OldnDaft]

When the policy was introduced, all maternity pers were posted to Personnel Holding Flight (PHF) at Innsworth - I was the first Maternity Clerk to administer these cases. To say the policy was rushed is an understatement, it was genuinely being made on the hoof and was amended on an almost weekly basis in response to various questions/complaints from those involved. For example, initially all the RAF had to do was ensure the returning SP was allocated a post appropriate to their rank and trade/branch so there was no guarantee of a return to the former Unit and we regularly had cases of the SP being posted to a Unit hundreds of miles from the previous duty station. Clearly, this was challenged and the poor staff in what was then known as S10(Air) had to attend employment tribunals etc. Eventually the policy was amended and posts had to be held open for the duration of the maternity absence. It was a very interesting job for a youngish SAC and I had an early insight into policy making by attending meetings with ranks up to and including 1*; I felt valued as my opinion was always considered and in some cases acted upon - a totally different kind of post as it followed my first tour at Bruggen!

[Krystal n chips]

I certainly know of a case in the 70's where a PMRAFNS Flt.Lt was happily involved with a J/T until authority got involved.

She was given the ultimatum of commission vs marriage and, being the lady she is, told authority what to do with the commission.

The unfortunate irony to this was, some years and one divorce later, said J/T got his commission.

There's also another little bit of arcane management from this era.

If an airman separated from his wife, his wife being a civilian, then authority took a very dim view of another airman subsequently becoming involved with the lady because she was deemed to be, in that equally arcane parlance, still "the wife of ". ...irrespective of the fact she was a civilian.

People didn't even have to be on the same station or locality for this draconian philosophy to be imposed.

[The Oberon]

Probably total BS but there was a rumour that in the case of an "accidental" pregnancy, a quick, discreet visit to Wroughton, Nocton Hall or somewhere similar could be arranged.

[Beancountercymru]

I attended an Air Cadet annual camp at Innsworth and our ACLO told us he was responsible for all the pregnant Airwomen in the RAF !

He then revealed he was OC Personnel Holding Flight

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a female RAF Doctor who had an affair with one of her staff. As they would not terminate the affair the System posted her thousands of miles away.

Sad to say, but as she was a nymphomaniac that worked a treat.

[Pontius Navigator]

Probably total BS but there was a rumour that in the case of an "accidental" pregnancy, a quick, discreet visit to Wroughton, Nocton Hall or somewhere similar could be arranged.
Pregnancies was the stock in trade of the hospital at Akrotiri.

[NutLoose]

Do they still bed check the under 18 WAAF's at 10 or 11pm?? I always thought that was such an archaic law.

Incidentely, when on detachment to Lossie, another Sqn was also there who had a lovely young engineering officer, later that night when we went down town, there she was sitting on one of the SAC's (off her shift) knees, they had been dating for months and while the sqn engineers knew of it, no one else did.

[Bladdered]

At Laarbruch in the early 80's a single WRAF PM from Wegburg and her Cpl boyfriend from Laarbruch were heard having noisy relations in a caravan in the caravan park near XV Sqn and when an A/Cpl Plod knocked on the door and asked for ID, she was daft enough to show him her 1250. Shipped straight back to UK!! Times have changed!!

[Pontius Navigator]

A new flt lt took her J/T boyfriend to the Summer Ball. The biggest objections were from the staff having to serve a JNCO.

She was spoken with and it was identified as a failure in instruction at Cranditz.

[spekesoftly]

Secondly, nattering to another old hand earlier, I was told that if a WRAF got married she also had to leave - I seem to remember something along those lines but was this the case?

There does seem to be a bit of disagreement about the "having to leave on marriage" aspect?No doubt the rules and regs will have changed since I left the RAF in 1978, but this is my recollection:-

When I arrived at RAF Strubby in 1971, there was a single WRAF Plt Off ATCO who did not have to leave after subsequently marrying a RAF Navigator stationed elsewhere. I can still remember her surnames, pre and post marriage. Approaching tourex, she was eventually posted to RAF West Raynham to be nearer to her husband. I also recall that she had more than a passing resemblance to Liza Minnelli !

[teeteringhead]

I thought I remembered from my early service (started in '68!!) that WRAF had to leave on marriage at one time, but better informed posters seem to disagree.

On reflection, perhaps the ones I remember were PMs, maybe the rules were different and PMs had to leave on marriage, but WRAF didn't??

[Vendee]

In 1976 at Halton, I received a lot of dental treatment from a rather lovely Flt Lt Hazel Parkhurst. I'm sure she said she was married to a nav, possibly on Buccs.

[NutLoose]

A new flt lt took her J/T boyfriend to the Summer Ball. The biggest objections were from the staff having to serve a JNCO.

I know a SAC that took a girl he was seeing to a Sqn do, who also happened to work in the local knocking shop, that went down a treat too..

[goudie]

In RAF Germany in the 50’s, all WRAFs had to be in their barrack block by midnight, as did airmen, under 21. My WRAF girlfriend and I were late one night...12.30am. I got a bollocking from plod, at the guardroom, she was put on a charge by the duty WRAF Cpl. and given 7 days jankers!

[Tengah Type]

It was not only the married/attached couples who were affected by the rules.

In Tengah in the 60's one of the Sqn Flt Lt Navs married a civilian girl, and held the reception in the Officers Mess. The whole aircrew contingent were invited, and attended in uniform. That is apart from the two NCO navigators who were given special permission to attend in civilian clothes! However it was normal for several Junior Officers to attend the Sgts Mess Happy Hour on Friday nights in uniform!

At Marham in the late 60's the Plt Off Copilot on my crew had his Father and Mother living on camp at the same time. As the father was a Master Pilot they were not able to go to each others Messes, and the Copilot was not supposed to visit his parents in their MQ.

On a slightly different tack, one of the Nav students at Hullavington was entertaining a Cpl WRAF PTI in his room at night. When she went down the corridor to the toilet, she met the Queen Bee coming out of a male officer's bedroom. Nothing was said!

[Pontius Navigator]

When she went down . . .
Oh the wonders of pagination.

At Waddo, 1967, Queen Bee wore metaphorical black boots. Older than the other girls and below average height, I think she was ex-police from South Africa or some such. She would vet every new arrival in Mess.

I remember a stinking hot summer at Waddo around '91. The Stn Cdr issued an order permitting WRAF to dispense with tights. Obviously word got out and Queen Bee at High Wycombe rescinded the permission and the Staish acquiesced.

[Danny42C]

At Leeming in 1972, one of our ATC WRAF Officers planned to marry a QFI. He was posted to Valley: there was no suitable post for her there (if there had been, she could have moved there and remained in service with him).

There was not, she resigned her Commission and married him.

[Rossian]

.....my fiancee was an air trafficker and had just finished the radar controllers course.
I was posted to Ballykelly and as BKY were short of a radar controller the SATCO was keen for her to come and stay in the service with me. However the Queen Bee at Pitreavie said that couldn't happen because there were no flush toilets in the tower and she couldn't countenance "her gels" using chemical toilets. There was a lot of agry bargy which ended up with SATCO saying that it was all my fault!! So Mrs Rossian to be said stuff it and resigned rather like the lady in Danny's post above.
QB couldn't get her head round the fact my intended was already using an elsan in the mobile PAR convoy which changed with the runway. Tacked at the end of the convoy was a bomb trolley with a thunderbox built by workshops out of Mk1c sonobuoy boxes labelled "Have Loo Will Travel!"
From where we are now it's difficult to remember how antiquated things could be socially at that time. Wg Off. Thomas belonged in the era before WW1

The Ancient Mariner

[NRU74]

I may have posted this before but...
The Chief WRAF at Abingdon in the early sixties was Sqn Officer Bobbie Stannard.
She was OC Personnel Services Flight or something similar.
Station Routine Orders (SRO’s) once published Order No 1 which was about a forthcoming parade and it said, on whatever date,
‘Wg Cdr D H M Chandler OC No47 Sqn will mount the Squadron Stannard ‘ on whenever.
(It was a typo... allegedly)

[AnglianAV8R]

I remember a stinking hot summer at Waddo around '91. The Stn Cdr issued an order permitting WRAF to dispense with tights. Obviously word got out and Queen Bee at High Wycombe rescinded the permission and the Staish acquiesced.

A timely moment for Beagle to arrive and harumph at "standards slipping. Tights! Quite unacceptable" Then post that photo of Flying Officer Harvey (hopefully)

[BEagle]

Section Officer Harvey, actually - and Google is your friend!

[Pontius Navigator]

At a secret fully hardened air defence base in Lincolnshire the Stn Cdr decreed that everyone sleep in the hards. It was quite delightful with perfumed frillies floating around the WOC dormitories.

When QB at Wycombe heard she put a stop to it and insisted her girls had separate dormitory so the WW2 Decontam was given a cheap make over whilst the sweaty jocks got the comfy billets.

[taxydual]

the Stn Cdr decreed that everyone sleep in the hards.

Same at Leeming. 57 blokes sleeping in the WOC dorm, enter 3 WRAF Frillies to be faced with a 3 tier bunk. A small debate ensued between the 3 Frillies culminating in the loser declaring that "I've never been on top before".

Cue 57 blokes howling with laughter.

[spekesoftly]

Another one I've remembered. I was best man to a Fg Off ATCO at RAF Waddington, sometime in the early 1970s. He married a WRAF Plt Off ATCO who later became an ATC Supervisor at Brize Norton.

[Tankertrashnav]

The Chief WRAF at Abingdon in the early sixties was Sqn Officer Bobbie Stannard.

I remember Ma'am Stannard at Seletar when I was there as a young PO in 1967. She issued me with a polite but firm reproof for putting my feet up on the opposite chair in the mess ante-room. Quite right too!

As I recall she died a few years later while still in the service.

[Wander00]

A young sqn ldr who had been in my wing at Wyton early 90s got posted to Binnsworth, and was tasked with attending all the employment tribunals where former WRAFs claimed unfair dismissal on marriage or pregnancy. Pretty depressing job turning up knowing you were going to lose every time, only variation was by how much

[spekesoftly]

...... employment tribunals where former WRAFs claimed unfair dismissal on marriage .......Do you know if these former WRAFs were dismissed simply for getting married, or were they claiming constructive dismissal?
(e.g. because they felt that insufficient consideration was given to their requests for a posting nearer to their husbands etc)

[roving]

Tuesday 12 October 1993
A FORMER RAF servicewoman was yesterday awarded £33,000 by an industrial tribunal - the highest compensation payment made to a victim of sexual discrimination.

Deborah Miller, 28, from Nafferton, Humberside, was asked to leave her job as an aerospace systems operator within two days of disclosing her pregnancy to her commanding officer at RAF Buchan, Aberdeenshire, in March 1987. At the time, the armed forces had a policy of discharging women when they became pregnant.

Mrs Miller is one of 5,500 pregnant women dismissed from the services between August 1978 and August 1990 who are now eligible for compensation payments from the Ministry of Defence.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/raf-told-to-pay-woman-pounds-33000-record-compensation-to-woman-dismissed-for-becoming-pregnant-1510471.html

[ShyTorque]

Probably total BS but there was a rumour that in the case of an "accidental" pregnancy, a quick, discreet visit to Wroughton, Nocton Hall or somewhere similar could be arranged.

I hope they did a better job on ladies plumbing than Nocton Hall did on my sinusses... Two black eyes, excruciating pain, months off flying and the final result - a medical downgrade.

[NutLoose]

You got the knitting needle version then Shy?

[Tashengurt]

From the mists of memory istr a Sgt at Leuchars who took the MOD to court after she was discharged on pregnancy.
I believe hers was one of the first cases roughly early 90's?

[ShyTorque]

One Officer Cadet I had made friends with on my direct entry course (IOT in the late 1970s) told the RAF he intended to get married over the Christmas break (I think his fiance had an "imminent medical concern"). The RAF not only told him he could not get married, but the female flight commander contacted his local Catholic church and told them that his wife-to-be was up the duff! Sounds unbelievable now, but perfectly true. He didn't complete his Officer Training after telling them to stuff it.

[ShyTorque]

You got the knitting needle version then Shy?

Not sure how they did it, I was asleep at the time. But a bodge job, certainly.
Thankfully I discovered what had happened (or rather, what hadn't happened) a decade later and Wroughton sorted it out - I then got my full medical back.