White, camo or hemp?

[Tankertrashnav]

The thread title about the unfortunate Vulcan XH 477 accident in 1963 prompted me to ask about the various colour schemes for the three V bomber types.

As is well-known all three types started their lives in what was known as "anti-flash" white (other than prototypes) , and I personally think they never looked better. I am not sure when the switch to camo began, did it pre-date the switch from high to low level role for the Vulcans, and why were Valiants which were never in the low level role latterly painted in the camo scheme? Similarly tankers, both Valiant and Victors, were never operated at low level, but all were repainted in camo, first in gloss, then in a rather horrible matt finish which survives on XA 648 at Duxford. I do have a 1965 picture of Victor K1 XA 918 in white, but as far as I know it was the only tanker to have operated in that scheme

The K2s of course then went to the very boring and unflattering hemp finish in which they ended their days. Seeing pictures of a B2 in its original white, then in camo and finally in hemp is like seeing pictures of an old friend ageing - and not at all graciously.

Any thoughts or opinions on the reasoning behind the various colour schemes?

[MPN11]

My only contribution would be that I thought the Victor looked rather neat and purposeful in hemp which was, I understood, a ground cam scheme for when parked..

[goudie]

I was a,techie on Vulcans when they were white. They looked very good but to keep them looking pristine, a whole lot of wadpole and elbow grease was required to keep them so.
A Vulcan from Finningly arrived at Scampton one day and it had obviously been a victim of Doncaster’s industrial fall-out. It looks ghastly compared to ours.
The camouflaged ones did look more business like, I thought.

[ACW418]

When I was on the OCU in mid 1964 I flew both white and camouflage versions. As far as I remember all the aircraft that I flew at Coningsby and Cottesmore were camouflage.

ACW

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW,not so. Contingent was still undergoing change around Aug/Sep 64. I did two trips in the Annie one day. First was AM to Cottesmore and return before lunch. No problems as the white jets stood out like the proverbial. After lunch we went to Finningley. Very hard to get a visual on RTB as only camp's left. I think the war plan switched to 'LL in July. We did OCU in full pressure rig.

[Pontius Navigator]

why were Valiants which were never in the low level role latterly painted in the camo scheme?
Not so. The Valiants in the TBF operated at low level well before the Vulcans and Victors. Their attack profile was the 2F when the Victor and Vulcan were on 2D (RB popup) and 2E (YS 2 pop up). The Valiant had the US 2100lb which had a shock mitigating spike.

Then the Mk 1 Victor was certainly a low level bomber with 4 Sqns, 10/XV/55/57, had the Valiants not been grounded the Victor would probably have continued to Jul 66.

The Victor 2, 100/139, were also low level missile carriers until the end of the 67/68 Oplan. Their bigger wing was not really suitable for the low level role. That they remained in camouflage once they were tankers might have been costs?

[Wensleydale]

The original Vulcans at Waddington in 1956 were painted in a silver finish which soon changed to "anti-flash" white.

[Pontius Navigator]

The other oddity was the change from anti flash roundels to high contrast bulls eyes. Eventually sense kicked in and the white ring went.

[oldmansquipper]

IIRC, When I arrived at Waddo '64time, there was a mix of white and camo B1a jets. We also had at least one Mk 1 which was white.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the info on LL Valiants P-N - I hadnt realised that. They were withdrawn the same year I joined up, so that's my excuse.

I thought the Victor looked rather neat and purposeful in hemp ...


No accounting for taste I suppose ;)

[MPN11]

<phrrp>, TTN :)

[Fareastdriver]

The Victor looked sinister which ever colour it was painted.

[ACW418]

TTN,

I arrived at Coningsby in October 1964 when you had already gone to the Far East. I don't think there were any white B2's on the station then.

ACW

[Herod]

There is only one colour for a "V" bomber. Call me old-fashioned, but it's Anti-flash White.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN,

I arrived at Coningsby in October 1964 when you had already gone to the Far East. I don't think there were any white B2's on the station then.

ACW
You mean me :)

I think all the White ones had gone by July. We took 655 to FEAF, I think 656 and 657 were yet to be delivered. Need to find my books.

[polecat2]

The first V-bombers in service were in what was called 'high-speed silver'. I remember reading it as a schoolboy and avid reader of RAF Flying Review during the mid 1950s. I remember from photos in that august journal the Valiants in squadron service wore this scheme for some time but I think by the time the Vulcan and Victor entered service anti-flash white was the norm.

They went to the low level role in 1964 and there was a mixture of white and camouflaged aircraft around for quite a while. i visited Wittering on a Halton Apprentices visit early 1964 and saw a newly camouflaged Victor among a group of white ones.

Polecat

[BEagle]

At least the Victor didn't suffer the indignity of being painted in 'John Major Grey', unlike the FunBus.... The first of which had a pale blue cheat line and looked awful - that 'blue vein' marking was rejected (thankfully) and the grey / dark grey design was somewhat better.

ZA141 looked daft in camouflage (by the way, 'camo' is a term only used by spotters...:8) and white underside, whereas the first Vulcan which came back from St.Athan in 1980 with wraparound green/grey camouflage rather looked the business!

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, was that top and bottom post Red Flag?

I thought the 'night bomber' deal with all grey underside looked odd.

[BEagle]

I don't know whether the wraparound scheme came as a result of Red Flag, or simply because other camouflaged aircraft were being similarly painted.

I once saw a single seat Hunter which had been allocated to a Bucc squadron (I think it was 12 Sqn) following the Red Flag accident. It had just been major'd and repainted in a similar scheme - and was flown without tanks or pylons. It looked great and flew even better - as it was a GT6, it didn't have guns, sabrinas or a gunsight either!

[Tengah Type]

In 1966 the Tanker Training Flight at Marham had 4 Victor B1A in camouflage and 2 Victor B1 in white, and no Tankers. The AAR training was carried out on the squadron. All the Tanker Mk 1/1A were delivered in camouflage. 55 Sqn retained 6 of its Bomber aircraft which had been fitted with 2 Flight Refuelling Mk 20 pods from RN stock. The other tankers were modded by Handley-Page to the three point standard and all arrived camouflaged.

When 57 & 214 had their complements of 3 point Tankers, 55 was re-equipped with 3 pointers.Their old 2 point tankers were redistibuted to the sqns as crew training hacks or to TTF as trainers replacing the B1s.

The B1As were still in service on TTF when I left Marham (that time) in May 71. This caused confusion at USA airshows when we had to explain that even though we were Tanker Training Flight we were flying a Bomber!

[Barksdale Boy]

Certainly O/C RAF Detachment Red Flag's crew in Nov/Dec 79 (but designated Red Flag 80/1 for US budget reasons) flew in wraparound ( the first one, I think), but I'm pretty sure the other three a/c had the previous paint job.

[Ogre]

I don't know about the anti-flash white, but I can think of a few aircraft that would have looked great in an all-over gloss black finish.... Thunder City did it with a Buccaneer....

[kenparry]

It looked great and flew even better -

but not for long, with only internal fuel

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Please forgive intrusion from civil side.

On a point of order, but I think the first Vulcan in wrap-round camouflage was XM607, which wore an unusual scheme of light grey/green upper surfaces, and brown/dark earth under surfaces to a "Red Flag" in 1977.

Believe this hybrid "desert" scheme was to reduce visual signature when banking at low level....

Hope the link works -

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/steve_oddy/607_nellis_1.htm

[KenV]

On the subject of the V-bombers: why did the UK choose to develop and put in production three different aircraft to meet the same requirement? That seems odd from a US perspective.

[Herod]

Actually there were four in contention, but the Sperrin never made it to production. As I understand it, the concern was that they were venturing into the unknown, so didn't want all the eggs in one basket. The Valiant was a very conventional aircraft, so a safe bet until the others came along. The Vulcan and Victor were developed side-by-side in case one of the technologies fell by the wayside, and I guess once they had both flown, it didn't cost that much to buy both types. Belt and braces.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ken, look up Sperrin. It spread the risk as the Vulcan and Victor were technically very advanced and high risk.

[safetypee]

Ken, as above and ...
In the immediate post-war timescale the requirement was for a high altitude nuclear capable jet bomber. The jet engine was a relatively new concept and the thrust required demand an extension of new axial designs; two types were considered; Avon and Sapphire.
Two of the aerodynamic proposals considered radical designs; delta wing for the Vulcan, and crescent wing for the Victor. The Valiant / Sperrin were the the least risky options, aero and engine, and would be available first. The Sperrin was dropped during development as being inferior to the Valiant.
The more advanced aerodynamic types used small prototype aircraft for proof of concept (Avro 707, HP88) to mitigate some risk and thus took longer to develop.
Therefore the choice of three was to spread the risk of unproven technologies, plus some politics and rationalisation of the post war industry. In the event the Valiant was a good ‘stop gap’ (very capable), and both of the other aircraft proved very capable - superior. Both were put into productions - politics, spread of risk, and keeping a competitive driver.

[KenV]

Spreading the risk - makes a lot of sense. USAF did that a lot also. But they seldom actually brought more than one design into production, preferring instead to cancel one design in development in favor of another one. And as was mentioned, this often resulted in lots of outrage from the politicians who represented the loser. Thanks for the info.

[Tankertrashnav]

Some very interesting information from a number of sources, thank you all

I had forgotten about the all-over silver which preceded the anti-flash white. There is currently a nice picture of a line-up of silver Valiants on a Facebook page devoted to the type.

That info on TTF was very enlightening, Tengah Type. I mentioned I had a picture of a white XA 918 refuelling two Lightnings in 1965 - would you know who "owned" that aircraft?

I can think of a few aircraft that would have looked great in an all-over gloss black finish...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCbzOQwJfd4

by the way, 'camo' is a term only used by spotters...

Oh dear, Beagle - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa :O

[Herod]

Thanks TTN; that is a NICE looking aeroplane. It shows you can always learn something; I never knew about the pathfinder version.

[Tengah Type]

TTN

The Victor B1/K1s were in the XA series of numbers, the B1A/K1As were XH***. XA 918 does not feature in my log book, and we on 214 flew the B1/K1s.

It is unlikely that it is a 55 Sqn B(K)1A two point aircraft as they were in the XH*** series. 55 received their 6 aircraft in May to Aug 1965, becoming operational on the type in Aug 1965.

So, XA918 could be a trials fit aircraft at Handley-Page or possibly Boscombe Down.

I arrived at Marham in June 1966 and all of 55 Sqn and 57 Sqn aircraft were in camouflage. 214 Sqn started to receive its own aircraft in Oct 1966, again all were camouflaged.

[Tankertrashnav]

Sounds likely T-T. My photo, which my son bought for me on ebay, is an Associated Press "wirephoto" sent from London to the US some time in 1965. It mentions that the tankers will enter service "later this year" so the assumption that it is an HP or Boscombe aircraft, not on a squadron, is probably correct.

[bobward]

In the Ian Allan book on the V bombers it mentions that Victors could be painted in two versions of green, along with the grey.

One was BS 381 Green and the other NATO green. The way to tell the inference was that one had hard edges to the pattern and the other soft edges. I'm afraid the grey cells don't recall which was which....

When they were repainted in hemp, this was on the upper surfaces only, with the undersides being in light aircraft grey