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glad rag
17th Mar 2018, 15:31
Syria war: 'Civilians killed' as thousands flee Turkish air strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43441350)

No further comment necessary.

fleigle
17th Mar 2018, 15:52
Turkey has been slaughtering/repressing the Kurds forever.
I was in eastern Turkey before GF1 and observed the Turkish Army burning recently harvested crops in a remote Kurdish village at the beginning of autumn.
The Turks are fierce.
f

Fareastdriver
17th Mar 2018, 16:50
Turkey can do what it likers as far as the EU are concerned. Any measures taken against it would unleash a million migrants into Greece.

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 18:12
Syria war: 'Civilians killed' as thousands flee Turkish air strikes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43441350)

No further comment necessary.

NATO country doing what it likes, any response and under NATO charter they can demand help.

meadowrun
17th Mar 2018, 18:18
Always that rock and a hard place with turkey.
Gotta love international blackmail.
Such a great and worthy ally.
And a very personable leader to boot.

Espada III
17th Mar 2018, 21:29
Really feel for the Kurds. A nation without a country. Whereas most of the Middle East is made up of countries without a nation; just warring tribes.

flash8
18th Mar 2018, 01:28
Have many Kurdish friends... many...

Some of the best people you will ever meet... incredible integrity, decent and generous. Don't for gods sake mix them up with the Arabs though... they hate Arabs as much as they hate the Turks.

Number of times they have helped me out over the years. Never will hear a word said against them.

finalchecksplease
18th Mar 2018, 07:30
The world politicians seem to have forgotten already which vital role the Kurds played in defeating ISIS.

While Turks seemed to be quite happy when ISIS flags were flying just across their border and now they're exterminating the Kurds. Erdogan also allowed ISIS fighters through his country and bought their oil. It's very odd to me the West doesn't speak of him in the same terms as they do Assad.

Turkey is a vile regime without a doubt and the plight of the Kurdish people is one the world should be taking notice of.

vapilot2004
18th Mar 2018, 10:56
About one hundred years ago in Versailles, we had an opportunity to give the Kurdish people a homeland. We chose to ignore their needs, instead carving up the ME in its (near) current form.

According to Al Jazeera, Turkey announced their 'victory' in a tweet:

"The Turkish armed forces and Free Syrian Army have taken the control of Afrin's city centre,"

Why has this been allowed to fester and turn so necrotic? The most recent 'cleansing' was widely reported at the first of the year. Where's the (short-staffed and beleaguered) US State Dept? This should have been walked back before it began and it has been reported that Erdogan trusts Trump over Obama. What gives?

A bit of recent background from the newsroom of the NYT:

On Wednesday, President Trump urged his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, to use restraint and avoid any situation that could lead to clashes between the Turkish and American militaries. Disputing the White House’s description of the call, Turkish officials denied that Mr. Trump had made such a request.

Y.P.G. leaders say theirs is a homegrown movement that sprang up to defend civilians in the early days of Syria’s war and against offensives by the Islamic State.

That role, and the backing of the United States, has transformed the group into the most prominent political and military force in northeastern Syria.

Formerly an impoverished and marginalized minority, Syria’s Kurds now administer substantial territory, where they are teaching Kurdish in schools and setting up local administrations. Critics have accused them of displacing Arabs.

American officials have long sought to minimize the Y.P.G.’s ties to the P.K.K., but Turkey is enraged that the United States is giving military support to a group that idealizes Mr. Ocalan, the sole inmate of an island prison in the Sea of Marmara.

Many Y.P.G. leaders speak openly of their history with the P.K.K., and Kurds from Iraq, Iran and Turkey have joined the movement in Syria.

Mr. Bonsey said there had been hope among the Americans that they could pull the Y.P.G. away from the P.K.K.

But such a prospect appears unlikely — especially with the Kurds now uncertain that they have solid support from the United States, which has sent mixed messages about how strongly it would back them against a Turkish onslaught.

The American ambivalence was clear on Wednesday in comments by Thomas P. Bossert, Mr. Trump’s homeland security and counterterrorism adviser, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

“I’m not in any way critical of the Turkish decision, but I’m just praying for their longer-term strategic patience,” Mr. Bossert told reporters.

Asked if the Turks should withdraw, Mr. Bossert said, “I would prefer it if for now they would remove themselves from the capital of Afrin.”

The United States effectively gave a green light to the current Turkish offensive against Afrin, urging restraint but emphasizing that it does not work with the Y.P.G. there.

Andy_S
18th Mar 2018, 11:15
The world politicians seem to have forgotten already which vital role the Kurds played in defeating ISIS.

While Turks seemed to be quite happy when ISIS flags were flying just across their border and now they're exterminating the Kurds. Erdogan also allowed ISIS fighters through his country and bought their oil. It's very odd to me the West doesn't speak of him in the same terms as they do Assad.

Turkey is a vile regime without a doubt and the plight of the Kurdish people is one the world should be taking notice of.

If there were a function for a 'like' vote I would definitely give you one for that.

ATNotts
18th Mar 2018, 11:43
And why, pray, does Turkey not get the lambasting that Russia does?

What they are doing to the Kurds is little better than what the Syrian (legitimate) government is doing to other rebel areas of Syria.

Do I detect a whiff of double standards? One nation a member of NATO (but for how much longer?) the other the nasty Mr. Putin and his cronies.

For my money the ultra nationalist Turkish regime is little, if at all, better than Russia's.

Andy_S
18th Mar 2018, 12:52
For my money the ultra nationalist Turkish regime is little, if at all, better than Russia's.

I agree. I suspect the reason for the lack of fuss in this case, is that no Turkish assassins are on our streets hunting down those who have displeased Erdogan, and that by comparison Turkey isn't regarded as a threat to the UK.

ORAC
18th Mar 2018, 13:30
Perhaps, but certainly implicated in the UK (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/turkey-murder-london-unsolved-mehmet-kaygisiz-government-security-services-agents-court-documents-a7332461.html) just as they are in Germany (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdeutschland%2Ftuer kischer-mutmasslicher-spion-soll-attentate-geplant-haben-a-1126437.html)....

Andy_S
18th Mar 2018, 13:52
Perhaps, but certainly implicated in the UK just as
they are in Germany....

Interesting. I knew Erdogan was whipping up a lot of nationalist fervour amongst the Turkish community in Germany, but didn't realise he'd (allegedly) gone that far. But then again, I'm not surprised.

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2018, 14:58
It would appear that ethnic cleansing is OK with the UN General Assembly if that ethnic group doesn't fit into any particularly popular niche.

Chronus
18th Mar 2018, 15:06
Is it just about ethnicity. What about the rich oilfiels of Kirkut. Surely that must be the ultimate prize, energy.

ORAC
18th Mar 2018, 16:52
Chronus.

Can Turkey renovate its empire by the end of the Treaty of Lausanne 2023? ? rawabt center (http://rawabetcenter.com/en/?p=2571)

meadowrun
18th Mar 2018, 17:09
Turkey never had an empire. Otto did.
Another badly thought out attempt to re-write history and regain past glories lost by- well, they lost. No do overs. An expiring treaty does not mean everything goes back to the way it was.


If they write an article in English is it really too much to ask to have the person who does it to have better English skills, not some guy who just wings it?

ORAC
18th Mar 2018, 17:38
But just like Putin meant it about Crimea, Erdogan means it about the territory Turkey thought it was cheated out of under the Treaty of Lausanne. And if he seizes them then anyone who is surprised is a fool and wasn’t listening - or perhaps believing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/turkish-president-erdogan-to-make-landmark-visit-to-greece

Erdogan and Turkish foreign policy: Neo-Ottoman rumblings (http://en.qantara.de/content/erdogan-and-turkish-foreign-policy-neo-ottoman-rumblings)

”Mosul should have been ours” statement could be explained by expansionism (http://www.agos.com.tr/en/article/16850/mosul-should-have-been-ours-statement-could-be-explained-by-expansionism)

flash8
18th Mar 2018, 18:28
Turkey is rapidly turning into an Islamic republic with all dissenters jailed, the deconstruction of any secular influence in the Judiciary, armed forces etc,

Have met many professional Turks who have left their country because of Erdogan and the emerging situation, many take their families out and seek a better life elsewhere.

Surprising how many have left... definitely an exodus of sorts, woefully unreported... only last week spoke to a Turkish Businessman in Chisinau (Moldova) who stated this to me as well.

Chronus
18th Mar 2018, 19:11
ORAC

We had the Irish troubles. Did anyone then speculate whether Great Britian wanted its empire back.
The Turks have been much misunderstood, the Ottomans before them much feared. As a nation they have no desire nor wish for territorial gains and expansion. The Kurdish problem is one that has been around for decades, it is not one that`s been brought about by Erdogan. Since his coming to power, Turks have enjoyed success and prosperity, something which was lacking for the population for a very long time, hundreds of years in fact. They have become a economic power that ranks high globally. They are a very important member of NATO, I don`t somehow think that they will make a grab for territory by force of arms.
The only thing that will happen in 1923 is, The Turks, Turkey and its allies will celebrate the formation of the republic and remember the price paid for it in human blood, Turkish, Greek and Aremenian. And so much more during the Great Conflict of the first world war which preceed it.

So I find the notion of empirical ambition ludicrous to say the least.

ORAC
18th Mar 2018, 19:32
Well we shall see, shall we not?

If there is a regional power battle being fought in the Middle East, Turkey will not stand by and let Iran and Saudi Arabia fight it out with one being the victor over all whilst they are left on the sideline to pickup the scraps.

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2018, 21:34
Hasn't Erdogan already gotten the "I can be in charge forever" bill passed by his government? Step 1 to become the new caliph or sultan.
The migration of the intelligentsia is a form of cultural cleansing, though nobody will have the grit to equate it with ethnic cleansing.

Let the opposition leave; you don't want them around anyway if you are Erdogan.

Chronus
19th Mar 2018, 19:48
Erdogan represents a leadership that places national interests of his country ahead of all else on a political agenda. It is not too dissimilar to that of Putin and Trump. He opposes any form of foreign influence on the affairs of his country. He is outspoken so are Putin and Trump. But some countires do not only need that sort of leadership, but welcome it. It is called a strong government, don`t you think we could also do with one, we had one with Maggie, and it counted for something, then, for just a little while. Nothing ever since, except a bunch of do-gooding philanthropic socio justical whingers and bleaters leading us to Utopia.