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LowNSlow
16th Mar 2018, 22:55
Given the support that France, USA and other non-nuclear countries have shown to the UK on the attempted assassination on UK territory should there be a UN exceptional meeting with a view to producing a statement letting Russia know that this act is a step too far?

meadowrun
16th Mar 2018, 23:01
Attempted then.
Murder now.

Tankertrashnav
17th Mar 2018, 01:27
Guess which is one of the countries that has a veto on the UN Security Council!

ExXB
17th Mar 2018, 15:15
But not the General Assembly. A Resolution adopted there could send a very strong message.

Not sure what this thread has to do with NATO though.

The Brits should offer to share their evidence with Russia, but through the OPCW.

Sallyann1234
17th Mar 2018, 15:31
The Brits should offer to share their evidence with Russia, but through the OPCW.

According to reports this morning, that is being arranged.

West Coast
17th Mar 2018, 15:41
A Resolution adopted there could send a very strong message.

What message would it be? How would that affect Russia? How would it deter them from from conducting similar acts if they again feel the need?

MG23
17th Mar 2018, 15:59
Why are people so determined to start WWIII?

Is it just so May doesn't have to deal with Brexit any more?

TURIN
17th Mar 2018, 16:58
Why are people so determined to start WWIII?

Is it just so May doesn't have to deal with Brexit any more?

A good week to bury bad news?

rotornut
17th Mar 2018, 17:05
Now it's their turn:
https://www.rt.com/news/421568-russia-summons-uk-ambassador-skripal/

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 18:11
Why are people so determined to start WWIII?

Is it just so May doesn't have to deal with Brexit any more?

Nail on the head.

Trying to appear strong and then they let Bojo and Gavin Williamson open their gobs.

Buster15
17th Mar 2018, 19:29
Why are people so determined to start WWIII?

Is it just so May doesn't have to deal with Brexit any more?

Calm down. Who is 'determined' to start WW3. Are you trying to say that it is perfectly acceptable for another country to try to terminate a person in another country using illegal nerve agents??

If you are not saying that then what is so wrong with what our government has done. Expelling 23 Russian diplomats/spies.

Hardly trying to start WW3 is it.

Eric Janson
17th Mar 2018, 19:41
Calm down. Who is 'determined' to start WW3. Are you trying to say that it is perfectly acceptable for another country to try to terminate a person in another country using illegal nerve agents??

If you are not saying that then what is so wrong with what our government has done. Expelling 23 Russian diplomats/spies.

Hardly trying to start WW3 is it.

Where's the proof that the Russians are the ones behind this?

Buster15
17th Mar 2018, 19:47
Where's the proof that the Russians are the ones behind this?

Not for me to answer that question; I will let the experts do that.
My point is that as far as I see it, talking about WW3 is not appropriate.

vapilot2004
17th Mar 2018, 19:56
What message would it be? How would that affect Russia? How would it deter them from from conducting similar acts if they again feel the need?

1. Don't :mad: with us.
2. Sanctions have already hurt them. More may be necessary.
3. Aside from #2, it's what we do, West Coast. It's how the world works, for over a century now.

If we do nothing, that's sending the message that Putin's actions are acceptable. Diplomacy 101. There must be condemnation and punitive actions taken. True, it may not prevent a future occurrence, but it puts people like Putin on notice. This is how we deal with thugs. In the past, we arranged to have such despots taken out via their own people, but those days are long gone.

Why are people so determined to start WWIII?


We are not the provocateur, MG23. Putin is.

ramble on
17th Mar 2018, 20:38
Funny how George Patton's words come to mind....

West Coast
17th Mar 2018, 23:42
Don't (f) with us. to paraphrase

Because it was so effective at stopping Vlad the second time.

but it puts people like Putin on notice. This is how we deal with thugs

If I could game this out to figure that Russia would be fingered and a variety of sanctions considered, so could Vlad. He doesn’t care.

galaxy flyer
18th Mar 2018, 03:33
to paraphrase

Because it was so effective at stopping Vlad the second time.



If I could game this out to figure that Russia would be fingered and a variety of sanctions considered, so could Vlad. He doesnít care.

Correct, Putin, who holds the responsibility for this attack, knows the reactions and could not care less about them. In particularly the U.K., Russian wealth, mostly stolen, means the U.K. will do little substantive lest it collapse the London real estate market. Sanctions have proven to be useless at changing Putinís behavior, witness mysterious death this week in London. Until serious, and I mean serious actions are taken, not much will change. Seize assets, send them packing back to Moscow; might work.

GF

Ethel the Aardvark
18th Mar 2018, 05:43
Wasnít there a top CIA person visiting the Ukraine days before the latest flare ups.
Bit more to this than meets the goldeneye. The ongoing Syrian debacle I would suggest are all intertwined. The speed of accusations against Putin that appear to be taken from the media! Itís a conspiracy theorist goldmine.
Makes me wonder if some posters here are on the payroll as right wing trolls?

pax britanica
18th Mar 2018, 10:50
funny how the russian have gone from good guys-faith in Britain, massive inward investment (ie buying London) to bad guys ina few months. Of course its got nothing to do with Theresa and Boris hiding from the real consequences of Brexit-Inflation, collapse of retail sector, Unilever leaving UK for Netherlands . Any more than Falklands rescued St Maggie from domestic troubles .

of course the chances of Vlad actually being involved are very slim seeing as he is President of a huge country and is a busy guy and the KGB /FSB tend not to like ex members who cause problems.

How many inconvenient people have we as a nation done away with on foreign (or Imperial soil) over the eyars. Bad things happen and proportionate responses are needed but headlines like May stands up to Putin are just another pathetic Daily Mail rule Britannia story when the real news should be hows the health service this week oer why are so many High Street names are going broke, or how many Trade Deals has Foxy not got

Pontius Navigator
18th Mar 2018, 11:11
"Having given Herr Putin an ultimatum to explain . . . no such explanation being forth coming, a State of Uncertainty . . ."



Who was the idiot who wrote ULTIMATUM in her speech? Her next move could have been recall the ambassador!

Andy_S
18th Mar 2018, 11:20
.....just another pathetic Daily Mail rule Britannia story when the real news should be hows the health service this week oer why are so many High Street names are going broke, or how many Trade Deals has Foxy not got

Do you not think that the hostile use of a sophisticated chemical weapon on our streets is "real news"?

ImageGear
18th Mar 2018, 11:27
Pax

The Russians did not become the bad guys in "a few months". This goes back much more than this. A major wakeup for the West came as early as the Georgia intervention, followed by the seizure of Crimea.

Problems arose when the world chose to make a lot of noise about Georgia and Crimea but basically look the other way, consequently Putin believes he has got away with it. Any amount of sanctions or isolation then or now is not going to change anything because he has sold it to the people as their rightful territory. Cue Corbin's nauseating stance on the history of mother Russia.

Also, Russia investing in the very countries which are at odds with their strategic objectives just shows the power of the capitalist and political systems of the West to look past the dirty truth to gain profit. If the Russians can also use dirty money, for them it becomes a money laundering win-win. The suitcases of cash arriving at Farnborough and elsewhere will continue to drive the politics.

Somebody needed to channel a bit of Maggie and go beyond the slap on the wrist to drawing a line in the sand. It's seems that TM, for better or worse is assuming that mantle.

IG

jindabyne
18th Mar 2018, 11:32
And why didn't she edit it?

wiggy
18th Mar 2018, 11:45
Why is it that my leftie friends who were so against precision drone strikes on ISIS & Al Qaeda fighters in the desert, seem to think nothings wrong with a chemical weapon attack on an ex spy in the middle of Salisbury?

Has anyone, left or right, actually claimed it was OK to attack anybody in the middle of Salisbury??

The arguing seems to be over where the finger of blame should be pointed........

racedo
18th Mar 2018, 11:49
Why is it that my leftie friends who were so against precision drone strikes on ISIS & Al Qaeda fighters in the desert, seem to think nothings wrong with a chemical weapon attack on an ex spy in the middle of Salisbury?


Amazing how all those precisions strikes never seem to work as US success rate in Syria was 20% and ISIS just seems to keep growing, driving in convoys across the desert, exporting oil via Turkey and getting all those Western Weapons by DHL.

Oh wait US was worried about "Civilian casualties"........................... guess there is a first time for everything.

All of a sudden RuAF started hitting IS/AQ and media is claiming they bombing all those hundreds of hospitals that seem to pop up everywhere.

One only has to look at Aleppo and now East Ghoutta and see people's reaction to SAA coming in.............

Stan Woolley
18th Mar 2018, 11:55
Well said Racedo.

KelvinD
18th Mar 2018, 12:02
Speaking of ISIS & Al Qaeda, isn't it obvious that, indirectly, the US and NATO are actually supporting them?
Both of these organisations are well entrenched in Ghouta. The Syrian government, backed by Russia, are fighting to get them out or, better yet, dead. The US and others are taking the opposite side and therefore, deliberately or not, providing backing to the 2 organisations.
And, blow me, the same applies in Mafrin. While the Kurds were doing a better job than others at fighting and beating ISIS & AL Qaeda, the US and allies have turned on them, supporting Turkey in that genocide.
"Precision drone strikes" my elbow! Precise strikes on hospitals, schools, markets etc, maybe.

pax britanica
18th Mar 2018, 12:25
Of course it is not alright to attack people in Salisbury or wherever but if you invite hordes of Russians with a dubious past into your country so you can flog them expensive houses you are going to get their extensive criminal element along with it . McMafia and all that. Boris of course when MoL invited them in with open arms in spite of various warnings from parts of the City about the kind of peopel he was courting.

My point is that this is serious but not a real issue compared to Brexit which shows more and more signs of ruining our country and is thus confined to one column on the inside pages while Theresa May does her Joe McCarthy act.

Russian mob guys and ex KGB getting whacked is not that big news in comparison . I don't think the issue should go unreported or that their shouldnt be consequences but when some one dies in suspicious circumstances thats a matter for the MP (met police)not the PM.

As far as I can see when it comes to our brave new world trading partners its not smart to cross Russia off the list which is not very long, for instance

USA-completely untrustworthy after Trump -what do people like Fox think AMERICA FIRST means . We get their contaminated foodstuffs and sell them nothing.

China- we are desperate and they have long memories-the humiliation of HKG is still a big thing to them and is payback time.

India , another long memory Asian country who we humiliated for decades.

All of SE/Western Pacific Asia plus Canada and Mehicko in the Pacific trade agreement , are they going to deal with little old UK or all of the EU first?

Russia wouldn't have been a bad market-they dont like Germans or Americans or Chinese so we were in a decent spot but thats all gone for the next 20 years now.

Not really anyone else left is there so lets keep the focus off the Free Trade fiasco and let the Mail play the Rule Britannia card for a few weeks

Dan_Brown
18th Mar 2018, 12:35
All Russians living in the UK should be asked to answer this simple question, publicly. Are you with him or against him? With him, Then freeze the assets, and put them on the next flight out.

They could start with Red Rom of Chelsea.

As G Doublya said after 911, you're either with us or against us. No one on the fence.

Andy_S
18th Mar 2018, 12:58
Has anyone, left or right, actually claimed it was OK to attack anybody in the middle of Salisbury??

A lot of people here on PPRuNe have conspicuously failed to condemn the attack. One or two have even suggested that Skripal deserved it..........

VP959
18th Mar 2018, 13:08
A lot of people here on PPRuNe have conspicuously failed to condemn the attack. One or two have even suggested that Skripal deserved it..........

And even more have come up with some pretty far-fetched conspiracy theories to try and justify their view that it couldn't possibly have anything to do with Russia or Vladimir Putin.

Quite why some always seem to want to ignore the glaringly obvious, and go hunting for the obscurely improbable, is one of life's mysteries, like those that are convinced that the Earth is flat, or that some magical being created the Earth in 6 days.

My experience of nearly 40 years of working within the UK government taught me that cock-up was a far more likely reason for something suspicious happening within government than conspiracy. Governments are generally just too big, dumb and uncoordinated to effectively organise conspiracies, especially nowadays when practically everyone in the country can be a "reporter" and have their five minutes of fame with their phone.

Highway1
18th Mar 2018, 13:39
A lot of people here on PPRuNe have conspicuously failed to condemn the attack. One or two have even suggested that Skripal deserved it..........


It was the poster blaming it on Brexit that made me chuckle..

MG23
18th Mar 2018, 16:49
Calm down. Who is 'determined' to start WW3.

All the people claiming this attack was 'an act of war'?

In a sane world, we'd investigate the crime and figure out who did it, then deal with it. Instead, we have The Usual Suspects yelling 'Putin! Putin! Russia! Russia! War! War!'

Because there appear to be a significant number of people in positions of power who want to start WWIII, for reasons that are beyond me.

Kerosene Kraut
18th Mar 2018, 18:24
It is an act of war. First chemical attack in Europe since WW2.

When Libya attacked West-Berlin's "La Belle" GI discotheque (inside the American Sector of Berlin) with a bomb back then the US retaliated with operation El Dorado Canyon, F-111s and the USN bombing attacks on Libya including Gaddafi's compound and family. He's got the message. Appeasement wouldn't have done it.

VP959
18th Mar 2018, 18:48
It's in that no-man's-land between an act of war and attempted murder by poisoning, in my view.

Technically, and it is a technicality, I don't believe that A234 is classified as a weapon of mass destruction. It may not even be on the CWC list of defined chemical warfare agents.

That then poses the question as to whether this was attempted murder directed at one/two specific UK citizens, most probably by someone from outwith the UK, with access to the materiel and expertise to deliver it, or whether it was intended to be a wider attack against people in the UK.

I strongly suspect, that despite all the wild rhetoric flying around this is just a case of attempted murder. A particularly horrific example of this crime, but that doesn't, in my view, elevate it to the status of an act of war.

Had the agent been delivered less discriminatingly, for example deployed widely in the pub or restaurant, then maybe a different conclusion could be reached.

DaveReidUK
18th Mar 2018, 19:11
It is an act of war. First chemical attack in Europe since WW2.

How did Georgi Markov die ? Wasn't that a chemical attack ?

VP959
18th Mar 2018, 19:19
How did Georgi Markov die ? Wasn't that a chemical attack ?

Georgi Markov died by the injection of a small hollow pellet into his thigh, with the hollows filled with ricin. The delivery method is widely believed to have been the tip of a modified umbrella.

I've seen the pellet first hand, and it's really tiny, you need a magnifying glass to see the hollows in it. Ricin isn't a WMD either, and unlike most chemical warfare agents, pretty much anyone with access to castor beans and acetone can extract it (and both can be readily purchased online - just search a well known auction site and you can easily and cheaply buy enough to kill a few thousand people).

KelvinD
18th Mar 2018, 19:59
WMD? Isn't that one of the most ill defined terms ever?
Nobody seems to include things such as the "Daisy Cutter" bomb which, from the evidence of use, puts Saddam's Scuds in the shade in terms of devastation. Yet Saddam had WMD but the US Air Force does not.
The US and UK have nuclear weapons that, as they keep reminding us, have more explosive destruction capability than all the weapons dropped in WW2.
The term WMD seems to be one of those convenient distractions and distortions of the English language made up in recent times. Take "non-combatant" for example. Surely, that would mean someone who has not taken part in combat. Yet one can end up in Guantanamo for decades, having not taken part in combat.
A funny old world!

VP959
18th Mar 2018, 20:23
WMD? Isn't that one of the most ill defined terms ever?
Nobody seems to include things such as the "Daisy Cutter" bomb which, from the evidence of use, puts Saddam's Scuds in the shade in terms of devastation. Yet Saddam had WMD but the US Air Force does not.
The US and UK have nuclear weapons that, as they keep reminding us, have more explosive destruction capability than all the weapons dropped in WW2.
The term WMD seems to be one of those convenient distractions and distortions of the English language made up in recent times. Take "non-combatant" for example. Surely, that would mean someone who has not taken part in combat. Yet one can end up in Guantanamo for decades, having not taken part in combat.
A funny old world!


You are absolutely right, WMD means whatever the person writing it wants it to mean. For example, we all know the chlorine gas was a WMD and chemical agent used to kill and main hundreds, perhaps thousands, during WWI. However it is not classified as either a WMD or as a chemical warfare agent.

The same applies to many other weapons or potential weapons that most would consider to be WMD when used indiscriminately.

Another example, Syria accepted the terms of the CWC in 2013, and agreed to a programme to destroy all of it's chemical agents. Funny old thing, but Syria has continued to deploy chemical agents, despite being a signatory to the CWC, and the OPCW seem to have no effective powers to restrict or prevent Syria's actions.

grateful_pax
18th Mar 2018, 20:26
Amazing how all those precisions strikes never seem to work as US success rate in Syria was 20% and ISIS just seems to keep growing, driving in convoys across the desert, exporting oil via Turkey and getting all those Western Weapons by DHL.

Oh wait US was worried about "Civilian casualties"........................... guess there is a first time for everything.

All of a sudden RuAF started hitting IS/AQ and media is claiming they bombing all those hundreds of hospitals that seem to pop up everywhere.

One only has to look at Aleppo and now East Ghoutta and see people's reaction to SAA coming in.............

hey man you should stop watching Russia Today and other youtube bullshit
you can tell that funny thing about "US success rate in Syria was 20%" to those 100+ dead russian mercenaries nearby Deir-ez-Zor
also, "ISIS just seems to keep growing, driving in convoys across the desert", having lost Raqqa and Mosul (and over 90% of their territory), yes, ISIS is definitely "keep growing" :D
"see people's reaction to SAA coming in" - believe me, when putin's cutthroats will arrive to your nice and quiet village, you will do as much as you can to show the "correct" reaction in the front of RusToday's camera :}

Lonewolf_50
18th Mar 2018, 21:40
The title of the thread makes little sense. The opening post vacuous.
NATO send the Russians home
Given the support that France, USA and other non-nuclear countries have shown to the UK on the attempted assassination on UK territory should there be a UN statement that Russia has gone to far?Looks like a wind up that people have jumped upon to grind a variety of axes.

For the usual suspects: the usage in this thread of the term "weapons of mass destruction" is intellectual laziness. Nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons each have their own hazards, and each poses a unique threat to whomever they are used against. That is the original meaning of the term, when someone was trying to describe all of the horrific new ways that science has offered to kill people in large groups, above and beyond conventional weapons.
I now observe a few of the usual suspects and fools trying to equate conventional weapons with WMD. That is blatant dishonesty, willfully deployed.

Willful ignorance is rarely curable.

Jetex_Jim
18th Mar 2018, 21:53
Given the way the Mods seem to be predisposed to tiding up JB lately I'm surprised they haven't consolidated a few of these 'Russian poisoning' related threads.

racedo
18th Mar 2018, 23:10
hey man you should stop watching Russia Today and other youtube bullshit
you can tell that funny thing about "US success rate in Syria was 20%" to those 100+ dead russian mercenaries nearby Deir-ez-Zor
also, "ISIS just seems to keep growing, driving in convoys across the desert", having lost Raqqa and Mosul (and over 90% of their territory), yes, ISIS is definitely "keep growing" :D
"see people's reaction to SAA coming in" - believe me, when putin's cutthroats will arrive to your nice and quiet village, you will do as much as you can to show the "correct" reaction in the front of RusToday's camera :}


Strangely enough I was quoting Pentagon on their success rate where in a lot of months their strike rate to mission didn't get even close to 20% as they claimed they wanted to avoid civilian casualties.

Is this the Raqaa and Mosul where civilian casualties mattered little to Western Media but in Aleppo and East Ghouta they important.

http://www.afcent.af.mil/Portals/82/Documents/Airpower%20summary/Airpower%20Summary%20-%20Januaray%202018.pdf?ver=2018-02-16-053941-803

Course you could check US's own statistics but even that is a lie.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/02/05/the-u-s-military-s-stats-on-deadly-airstrikes-are-wrong-thousands-have-gone-unreported/

grateful_pax
19th Mar 2018, 09:17
Strangely enough I was quoting Pentagon on their success rate where in a lot of months their strike rate to mission didn't get even close to 20% as they claimed they wanted to avoid civilian casualties.

indeed they wanted to avoid civilian casualties. and they merely succeeded in that. how many objects of civilian infrastructure were targeted by coalition strikes? yes, some were definitely hit by coalition strikes but the overall pattern was to "avoid civilian casualties". Which is hardly the case when it comes to ruaf/assad.
nevertheless when it comes to direct fight, russians have no chance vs US's "20% success rate", isn't it?

Is this the Raqaa and Mosul where civilian casualties mattered little to Western Media but in Aleppo and East Ghouta they important.

Says who? The same media which reported that MH-17 was in fact a missed MH-370 filled with "refrigerated" bodies in a secret CIA moon base?

I'm not allowed to post URLs

Course you could check US's own statistics but even that is a lie.

I'm not allowed to post URLs

Thank you for the links, but let me explain some primitive trolling techniques.
The rule #1 is: do not post a 100% lie; always add a bit of verifiable info so that the actual lie would looks more credible.

This is exactly what you did. You made a correct claim of "20% success rate". Next, you added the propaganda topics:
* US (the West) sucks, russia (assad) wins
* ISIS is "growing" despite West's efforts
* people is happy under assad dictatorship
* war crimes in Allepo & South Ghouta is morally equal to liberation of Raqqa & Mosul

:O

LowNSlow
19th Mar 2018, 16:35
Lonewolf_50, apologies, there might have been a surfeit of Pino Gris involved. I will change the title to make slightly more sense!

Lonewolf_50
19th Mar 2018, 17:02
@LowNSLow
Welcome back! I hope you enjoy the discussion you have started, and the Pino Gris! :)

racedo
19th Mar 2018, 20:08
indeed they wanted to avoid civilian casualties. and they merely succeeded in that. how many objects of civilian infrastructure were targeted by coalition strikes? yes, some were definitely hit by coalition strikes but the overall pattern was to "avoid civilian casualties". Which is hardly the case when it comes to ruaf/assad.
nevertheless when it comes to direct fight, russians have no chance vs US's "20% success rate", isn't it?



Strange about they completely unable to find ISIS/AQ but they were when they supply dropping them weapons and training them.



Thank you for the links, but let me explain some primitive trolling techniques.
The rule #1 is: do not post a 100% lie; always add a bit of verifiable info so that the actual lie would looks more credible.

This is exactly what you did. You made a correct claim of "20% success rate". Next, you added the propaganda topics:
* US (the West) sucks, russia (assad) wins
* ISIS is "growing" despite West's efforts
* people is happy under assad dictatorship
* war crimes in Allepo & South Ghouta is morally equal to liberation of Raqqa & Mosul

:O

Perhaps you really need to look at the US DOD links and the fact that US Military Times have found that they have been lying for at least 15 years in data published to US Government which everybody relied upon.

That is US published data nobody elses.