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favete linguis
15th Mar 2018, 15:45
Russia should 'go away and shut up', says UK defence secretary.

Really????

Is that the best our 'defence' secretary can come up with?

PDR1
15th Mar 2018, 15:49
He forgot the

"...or we'll take you off our XMas card list and never speak to you ever, ever, ever again."

PDR

Highway1
15th Mar 2018, 16:09
Russia should 'go away and shut up', says UK defence secretary.

Really????

Is that the best our 'defence' secretary can come up with?

Well he cant threaten military action from our carrier fleet...;)

ShotOne
15th Mar 2018, 16:27
Your point being that we ought to be being more polite and apologetic for having suffered the state-sponsored attempted murder of British citizens in this vicious and reckless attack?

Curious Pax
15th Mar 2018, 16:29
Your point being that we ought to be being more polite and apologetic for having suffered the state-sponsored attempted murder of British citizens in this vicious and reckless attack?

There are many more strong grown up points that could have been made instead of descending to the level of a 10 year old. Still, it’s quite an achievement to make Trump look statesmanlike in comparison!

Icare9
15th Mar 2018, 16:38
Amazing that we've had 23 "diplomats" in the UK for God knows how long and yet in the space of a few days we've identified them as undeclared spies.....

Using nerve agents in another Country (or even in Russia but in open air conditions etc) has to be the most reprehensible form of attack on another Country, irrespective that the target were Russians with whom the Kremlin has issues with....

To find that there are 14 (or perhaps more) deaths of Russians in the UK of erstwhile healthy people seems as if they've been allowed to get away with murder without our Intelligence Services either "twigging" what was going on, or were kept quiet for what just seems diplomatic reasons.

Instead it just seems to have been interpreted by the Russians or their stooges as carte blanche to wipe out as many dissidents as they can.

Perhaps we could have been hoping to subcontract hits on Assange and other UK trouble makers?

What can we do to make the Russians sit up and desist?

G-CPTN
15th Mar 2018, 16:55
We could try screaming and screaming until we are sick . . .

ricardian
15th Mar 2018, 17:08
We could try screaming and screaming until we are sick . . .

No, no! It's thcweem and thcween until we're thick

Andy_S
15th Mar 2018, 17:11
Amazing that we've had 23 "diplomats" in the UK for God knows how long and yet in the space of a few days we've identified them as undeclared spies.....

I think we probably always knew they were spies, but took no action as long as we could keep an eye on them.

What can we do to make the Russians sit up and desist?

The reality is there’s very little we can do, in the short term, to curb Russian aggression and recklessness on our soil. Equally, to do nothing sends out a signal that they can carry out acts of murder and terror on British soil with impunity. So we have to do something, even if it seems insignificant and incurs a tit-for-tat response. We have to make the Russian government aware that we will no longer look the other way, and that there will be consequences for hostile acts against us.

In particular, I think we have to start playing a longer game and work to change perception of Russia amongst our allies. In that respect, it was encouraging to see the USA, Germany and France clearly supporting the UK. Putin may laugh at the UK’s expulsion of a few diplomats, but if the wider world begins to wake up and start treating Russia as a serious threat rather than merely with suspicion then he might start to think differently about how to manage relations with the West.

57mm
15th Mar 2018, 18:46
Using a WMD in a foreign country is an act of war, is it not?

old,not bold
15th Mar 2018, 18:55
Amazing that we've had 23 "diplomats" in the UK for God knows how long and yet in the space of a few days we've identified them as undeclared spies...
No, not amazing; the trick is to identify all the spies in an Embassy (and outside it) and then let them run while watching them carefully. That gives you their contacts/agents in the UK, and shows you what they are interested in. If you sling them out, you have to go through the whole identification process again when the replacements arrive, as they surely will.

So while Mrs M had no option but to get rid of the 23 identified agents, doing so has made life harder for our spooks, especially as the inevitable retaliatory defenestration of the UK's agents in Russia means that they will have to be replaced with new faces.

racedo
15th Mar 2018, 19:02
So while Mrs M had no option but to get rid of the 23 identified agents, doing so has made life harder for our spooks, especially as the inevitable retaliatory defenestration of the UK's agents in Russia means that they will have to be replaced with new faces.

Plus the 23 spooks that Russia will kick out will be burned and names publicly so any contacts they had with people going forward are an issue.

Highway1
15th Mar 2018, 19:05
In particular, I think we have to start playing a longer game and work to change perception of Russia amongst our allies. In that respect, it was encouraging to see the USA, Germany and France clearly supporting the UK.


Unlike the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition.. :ooh:

racedo
15th Mar 2018, 19:28
Using a WMD in a foreign country is an act of war, is it not?


And your proof it was carried out by Russia is what ?

Buster15
15th Mar 2018, 20:33
Russia should 'go away and shut up', says UK defence secretary.

Really????

Is that the best our 'defence' secretary can come up with?

Pathetic isn't it. The situation is tense enough without people in high office making such idiotic and amateur statements.

funfly
15th Mar 2018, 20:44
'thcweem and thcween 'til I make myself sick'

Just William, was it Violet Elizabeth?

If you remember what I am talking about.

TURIN
15th Mar 2018, 20:55
Using a WMD in a foreign country is an act of war, is it not?



And your proof it was carried out by Russia is what ?

Lets face it we don't exactly have a good record with regard to hard evidence of WMDs do we.


Unlike the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition..

Perhaps if the leader of the opposition in 2002 had shown similar distrust of a certain 'dodgy dossier' the history of the 21st Century would have been different.

fitliker
15th Mar 2018, 22:01
Dossiers written by people who never thought their dodgey dossiers would be read by anyone outside their daisy chain at the Piccadilly Circus gents toilets .

Thomas coupling
15th Mar 2018, 22:04
Putin must be over the moon.
He might be a despot or cruel or evil but he's not stupid.

Putin has now single handedly flushed out 23 of 27 russian criminals on his wanted list. Each of these "diplomats" are hardened criminals/fraudsters/traitors from Russia who have been refused extradition requests by the Russians time and time again by british courts and the home office.
They will now be forever on the run........good or bad?
And before you ask: was it 'stupid' to use this weapon of choice - one which uniquely identifies the perpetrators - one which Putin knew would be traced back to him adding another layer of evil to his over inflated ego.
Remeber this, when you are the richest man in the world, when you are the 2nd most powerful human being on the planet.....normality shifts. Trump is dumb but kind, Putin is clever but evil.

He simply doesn't care - he is the product of decades of russian westernisation where russian society has been eroded by western ideals, where it is perceived that communism has failed and capitalism must be the way forward. Gorbachov, Yeltsin - both cow towing to the west. The USSR sliding inexorably into oblivion.
He decided enough was enough and over the last 13 years he has ramped up the sniping, the bullying, the elimination of his enemies, the restitution of homeland pride, the rebuilding of his military which is the spearhead of russian presence in the world.
He controls the media, the politics, the people.
There is now a generation who feel good about themselves for the first time in years. They eat, live, sleep Russia.

Without his nuclear arsenal he is nothing and he knows it. Without his cronies and his corrupt followers he is nothing.

We must wait until his time is over and hope that Russian people realise there is another way..........

Training Risky
15th Mar 2018, 23:22
Putin has a sharp mind honed at the KGB coalface over decades. He and his generation excelled in the use of cunning, guile and brinkmanship.






Can we hire him in to manage Brexit negotiations with Junker?

wiggy
16th Mar 2018, 09:49
The reality is there’s very little we can do, in the short term....

I’m sure “sorting out” the financial activities of the various Russian oligarchs and their various connections who find London/the U.K. a convenient conduit for their funds might send out a stronger message than deporting a handful of embassy staff :rolleyes: but we know that is not going to happen and we know why (TBF it’s not just a U.K. problem...)

Meanwhile the UK expats continue to get the third degree from the banks about money laundering every time we want to move ten pence in or out of the UK....:mad:

Krystal n chips
16th Mar 2018, 10:16
wiggy,

"Meanwhile the UK expats continue to get the third degree from the banks about money laundering every time we want to move ten pence in or out of the UK"

I don't doubt that for one minute, but, you will be unsurprised to learn, the same applies to those of us resident in the UK.

Sold a van a few years ago, to a trader and all legit. Paid in cash with a legit bill of sale and all the details for DVLC.....go to deposit in the bank and you would have thought the £4k was the proceeds from clandestine arms dealing or drug smuggling.

Back to one of the great political rebuffs of our time.

troppo
16th Mar 2018, 10:21
One of the key and most understood things is that Anglo Saxon beliefs and psychology can't be imposed on others. What may be righteous in one society may be different in another. There are a lot of nasty things that have leaked out of the decline of the USSR but until proven otherwise Putin should be given the opportunity to defend his country rather than the usual U.K./US lynch mob we have seen in the past.
Hell...why even use a nerve agent directly traceable back to Russia when something like acrylamide would have the same effect?

KelvinD
16th Mar 2018, 10:37
Gavin Williamson is, perhaps, a bit thick. Not too long ago, he was claiming Russia could be planning cyber attacks to bring down our (UK) electricity grid. To bolster his claim, he mad a further "claim": Russians were photographing power stations so there!
Didn't he think that a so-called cyber attack on the power infrastructure would be carried out via this internet thingy? Photographs of generator stations are not required for that.
And why would someone put up with driving around the UK in our notoriously inclement weather taking photographs when they can use the aforementioned internet and get as many photographs as they like? From the comfort and warmth of their home or office?
And, talk about biting the hand that feeds you! Gavin Williamson was apparently the beneficiary of a £30K political donation from the wife of a former Russian Finance Minister. Mind you, the same woman slipped Boris the Buffoon £20K and David Cameron something like £160K. All of the above was done via auctions to play tennis and various other activities with Tory politicians at a Tory party fund raising event.
troppo: Spot on!

Tankertrashnav
16th Mar 2018, 12:44
Doesnt it just show how far down the scale of importance defence has come in government thinking if a politician of such poor calibre as Gavin Williamson has been put in charge? Of course in recent years it has been accepted that it is health first, education second and defence nowhere. It's only when something like the recent event happens that we realise what a mistake that has been.

Effluent Man
16th Mar 2018, 12:56
The OP perfectly sums up my feelings when I heard this stupid boy's remark. To be so rude to a major power when the charge is probably in the area of what the Scots would term "Not Proven" seems rash to say the least. Over the last couple of days various experts have raised the possibility that this attack wasn't officially sanctioned by the Russian state and was quite possibly the result of the chemical agent being misappropriated for reasons best known to themselves. I am beginning to think this is a more likely scenario.

wiggy
16th Mar 2018, 12:58
Doesnt it just show how far down the scale of importance defence has come in government thinking if a politician of such poor calibre as Gavin Williamson has been put in charge?

(My emphasis)

Weren’t there rumours doing the rounds at the time of his appointment that by virtue of his position in the scheme of things, and his privileged access to the PM he had pretty much managed put himself in charge of Defence?

Effluent Man
16th Mar 2018, 13:06
As a long time Labour voter who is most definitely anti Corbyn I have to say that I think that he is correct on this. Keir Starmer's assertion that Russia's failure to respond to the allegations serves to prove their guilt is, I feel, absolutely wrong. Were you to be pulled in for a serious offence that you had not committed I think that your reaction would be exactly the same. You would deny it but equally fail to explain who had.

VP959
16th Mar 2018, 13:58
The OP perfectly sums up my feelings when I heard this stupid boy's remark. To be so rude to a major power when the charge is probably in the area of what the Scots would term "Not Proven" seems rash to say the least. Over the last couple of days various experts have raised the possibility that this attack wasn't officially sanctioned by the Russian state and was quite possibly the result of the chemical agent being misappropriated for reasons best known to themselves. I am beginning to think this is a more likely scenario.

I'm inclined to agree. I get the feeling that Russia isn't wholly under state control and that there are a lot of very powerful people in Russia who have the capability to do something like this just because they can, and who know that underneath it all Putin is likely to agree with their actions, or even allow them access to materials and facilities, even if only covertly.


British politicians making stupid remarks like this just muddies the water and shows that we have some right idiots in government, IMHO.

Part of the problem is that everyone wants some form of instant gratification with an instant answer, and in something as complex as this it's going to take weeks before there is enough evidence to indicate what may have happened, let alone identify the actual people involved.

Sallyann1234
16th Mar 2018, 14:58
Meanwhile, Russian media - both RT and internal services - take every opportunity to show our politicians as fools.
Whether it's schoolboy remarks, BoJo hanging on the wire waving Union flags, or May in a silly hat at the races.

andytug
16th Mar 2018, 15:03
Meanwhile, Russian media - both RT and internal services - take every opportunity to show our politicians as fools.
Whether it's schoolboy remarks, BoJo hanging on the wire waving Union flags, or May in a silly hat at the races.

Well it is like shooting fish in a barrel..... Pity our media doesn't do similar instead of constantly fawning on them.

MG23
16th Mar 2018, 17:22
Pity our media doesn't do similar instead of constantly fawning on them.

Not likely when they all went to the same parties at Oxford and Cambridge.

But, yes, the simple solution to having Putin trying to bump off Russian oligarchs in your country is to not be a tax-haven for Russian oligarchs.

ORAC
16th Mar 2018, 17:35
Using a WMD in a foreign country is an act of war, is it not? As was remarked in the House during the speeches after the PM’s statement - if not an Act of War, it was certainly a warlike act....

Krystal n chips
16th Mar 2018, 17:39
The station isn't as bad a people allege.

It's hard to disagree with the last paragraph....

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/mar/16/how-rt-is-reporting-sergei-skripal-salisbury-spy-scandal-russia

Trossie
16th Mar 2018, 18:42
I get the feeling that Russia isn't wholly under state control and that there are a lot of very powerful people in Russia who have the capability to do something like this just because they can, and who know that underneath it all Putin is likely to agree with their actions, or even allow them access to materials and facilities, even if only covertly.And the Russian state has an international obligation to control lethal material that they have produced. They can't sit back and say that it was someone else that they can't control. That would be as bad as saying that "it's not our fault if someone smuggled one of our tactical nuclear weapons into someone else's country and let it off". Different weapons but the same fundamental principles apply. That sort of thing is bordering on being a 'rogue state'. (If somebody who has access to Matt's "You've come through to State Sponsored Doping, you want State ..." cartoon, that puts this theme into perfect perspective.)

Trossie
16th Mar 2018, 18:43
RT must be bad. It is reported that Salmond is on it.

VP959
16th Mar 2018, 19:35
And the Russian state has an international obligation to control lethal material that they have produced. They can't sit back and say that it was someone else that they can't control. That would be as bad as saying that "it's not our fault if someone smuggled one of our tactical nuclear weapons into someone else's country and let it off". Different weapons but the same fundamental principles apply. That sort of thing is bordering on being a 'rogue state'. (If somebody who has access to Matt's "You've come through to State Sponsored Doping, you want State ..." cartoon, that puts this theme into perfect perspective.)


They have a massive problem though. Back in the Yeltsin era things really fell apart in the country, and the efforts made by some to get them to sign up to the CWC were being actively thwarted by those who were insistent on developing agents that they believed may fall outwith the definitions used by the CWC. For a time there was pretty poor control of a wide range of materiel as the Soviet Union collapsed, and it seems quite likely that some of those who clung to the "old ways" of the KGB may well have been able to take control of, and effectively hide, a lot of the technical information of their novochok programme. There would be little point in them hiding stocks of materiel, as it was reported at the time that most of it was in bulk storage, and the chances are that it has degraded a great deal by now. The stuff that was already weaponised and in shells and missiles would have been viable, but I believe that is the materiel that they agreed to destroy.

The key seem to be that some people retained the expertise gained over 20+ years of research into "undetectable" agents, and that it seems extremely probable that someone has funded and established a lab capable of preparing these agents covertly. I doubt that's hard to do, given the way that Russia currently seems to operate. My own view is that it's about as close to a rogue state as it's possible to get, but manages to maintain a small degree of plausible deniability between it's president and those who undertake criminal acts on behalf of the state, albeit covertly.

The US carried out a range of studies and inspections on facilities in and around 1995, and published a series of reports, that illustrate just how dire security was at that time: https://www.stimson.org/content/chemical-weapons-disarmament-russia-problems-and-prospects

It's a bit of a long read, but a skim through indicates that things were pretty dire.

Sallyann1234
16th Mar 2018, 19:52
Certain individuals managed to grab hold of entire industries, utilities and natural resources after the breakup of the Soviet regime.
Why would it have been so difficult for someone to take over a laboratory that was already carefully hidden from view?

VP959
16th Mar 2018, 20:44
Certain individuals managed to grab hold of entire industries, utilities and natural resources after the breakup of the Soviet regime.
Why would it have been so difficult for someone to take over a laboratory that was already carefully hidden from view?

I think that's a key point. I'm sure there were individuals who deeply resented the loss of the former Soviet Union and did what ever they could to take advantage of any opportunity to grab some personal power. Many of those people aligned themselves with criminal activities, and may well be loosely associated with Putin, as it seems that he may be pretty closely connected to organised crime.

larssnowpharter
16th Mar 2018, 20:51
Look on the bright side. At least the Secretary of State for Defence succeeded in one thing in his first major speech: he made Boris Johnson look, almost, statesmanlike.

vapilot2004
16th Mar 2018, 21:19
Here's the thing about WMDs: no one in law enforcement has a master list of "serial numbers" or an accurate database of characteristics such as chemical/elemental breakdown proportions. Nefarious Russian actors can attack almost at will, without fear of direct retribution.

I fail to understand why certain members seem to defend Putin and Russia (and Trump!). Could it be they are bots or Russian paid trolls?

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 13:05
Doesnt it just show how far down the scale of importance defence has come in government thinking if a politician of such poor calibre as Gavin Williamson has been put in charge? .

I think that sums it up better than I ever could :D:D:D

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 13:08
Well it is like shooting fish in a barrel......


:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Now got to clean coffee from screen,.:E

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 13:12
Certain individuals managed to grab hold of entire industries, utilities and natural resources after the breakup of the Soviet regime.


They grabbed their billions and moved them out of Russia into the west and bought things like football clubs.

Putin came to power and decided to take it back for the Russian people ........... hence why all these Oligarchs reside in London claiming to be opposed to Putin because it means they won't get sent back and they lose their wealth.

London is Costa del Crime for Russian thieves.

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 13:16
Here's the thing about WMDs: no one in law enforcement has a master list of "serial numbers" or an accurate database of characteristics such as chemical/elemental breakdown proportions. Nefarious Russian actors can attack almost at will, without fear of direct retribution.


Some of the scientists who developed these went to the US in the 1990's .......... did they forget all they knew ?


I fail to understand why certain members seem to defend Putin and Russia (and Trump!). Could it be they are bots or Russian paid trolls?

I have yet to see a single shred of evidence only shouted claims not backed up by anything other than moronic politicians.

If UK is serious then OPCW and UN should be quickly involved, amazingly UK has dragged its heels which pretty much sums up its case and evidence is weak so it is not interested in truth just spin.

ShotOne
17th Mar 2018, 13:25
“Certain individuals managed to grab hold of entire industries..” This option was explicitly left on the table by HMG at the outset and Russia given the opportunity to answer. Their response was a string of derisive taunts, cartoons and insults. Even if this was mismanagement rather than aggression, in the vanishingly unlikely event that some Russian criminal element did this in defiance of Putin (seriously?) they are still highly culpable.

Andy_S
17th Mar 2018, 15:00
Putin came to power and decided to take it back for himself and his mates ...........

There. Fixed that for you.

DaveReidUK
17th Mar 2018, 16:08
Keir Starmer's assertion that Russia's failure to respond to the allegations serves to prove their guilt is, I feel, absolutely wrong. Were you to be pulled in for a serious offence that you had not committed I think that your reaction would be exactly the same. You would deny it but equally fail to explain who had.

You would think a former Director of Public Prosecutions would know that ...

Bergerie1
17th Mar 2018, 18:09
racedo,

In answer to your statement on lack of evidence, take a look at this:- https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-21.html#post10086994

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 19:00
There. I am a waste of space.

Fixed yours for you as well.

racedo
17th Mar 2018, 19:02
racedo,

In answer to your statement on lack of evidence, take a look at this:- https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-21.html#post10086994


That is not evidence.

VP959
17th Mar 2018, 20:24
That is not evidence.

What do you think the powers of either the OPCW or the CWC really are?

I can tell one thing, the OPCW work on trust, and trust alone. A nation risks being ostracised by deliberately deceiving an inspection, but frankly it'd be like a slap on the wrist to a state that doesn't care what others states think.

Take a read of the role and virtually non-existent legal powers of the OPCW, you might find it enlightening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_for_the_Prohibition_of_Chemical_Weapons

Take note that they have never undertaken any actions.............