Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

[Airbubba]

In the #Me Too era, yet another serious claim of past sexual assault surfaces in the news.

Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her
By Janine Puhak | Fox News

A Seattle-based pilot employed by Alaska Airlines has filed a lawsuit against the airline, claiming that her male aircraft captain drugged and raped her during a June 2017 work trip.

Betty Pina, a former military helicopter pilot who flew combat missions in Afghanistan, told KIRO 7 that during an overnight stay in Minneapolis, the pilot spiked her wine with an unknown substance and she woke up in his bedroom.

Pina said her attacker is still a pilot for Alaska Airlines and that she wants him fired.

Alaska Airlines female co-pilot claims male pilot drugged and raped her | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-female-co-pilot-claims-male-pilot-drugged-and-raped-her.html)

Co-pilot sues Alaska Airlines, says pilot drugged and raped her
by KOMO StaffWednesday, March 14th 2018

SEATTLE - A co-pilot for Alaska Airlines is suing the company, saying it failed to take appropriate action after she reported she had been drugged and raped by an Alaska Airlines pilot during a layover last year.

The co-pilot, Betty Pina, filed the lawsuit Tuesday in King County Superior Court under Washington state's anti-discrimination statute.

The suit says that she was taken off active flight crew duties for an extended period after she reported the rape, but to the best of her knowledge the pilot was never removed from duty and is still employed by the company, where he "remains a threat to other employees."

According to the lawsuit, Pina was serving as a co-pilot with the pilot in question for the first time last June. During a layover in Minneapolis, she says she blacked out after the pilot gave her wine at a hotel lounge.

When she woke up, hours later, she was naked from the waist down in bed in the pilot's hotel room with him, and there was vomit on the blankets, the lawsuit says. She suit says she remained nauseous and in pain for hours afterward and realized that she had been drugged.

When she confronted the pilot, he denied any sexual contact.

After Pina reported the rape to Alaska Airlines, she was taken off active flight crew duties for several months and was only recently returned to full duty, according to the lawsuit. The pilot remained on full duty with the airline and was never charged with any crime.

Co-pilot sues Alaska Airlines, says pilot drugged and raped her | KOMO (http://komonews.com/news/local/co-pilot-sues-alaska-airlines-says-pilot-drugged-and-raped-her)

[krismiler]

The police should have informed immediately so that evidence could be gathered such a drug test and DNA. A report would then be sent to the relevant authorities who would decide how to proceed.

Was the done or did she just complain to the airline ?

[aterpster]

The police should have informed immediately so that evidence could be gathered such a drug test and DNA. A report would then be sent to the relevant authorities who would decide how to proceed.

Was the done or did she just complain to the airline ?
If there had been a timely criminal complaint, and had the captain been found to be the perp, he wouldn't be working for the airline months later.

Sounds bogus to me.

[Cynical Sid]

The police should have informed immediately so that evidence could be gathered such a drug test and DNA. A report would then be sent to the relevant authorities who would decide how to proceed.

Was the done or did she just complain to the airline ?

IMHO this is the problem with so many cases like this. Alaska Airlines is an airline, not an investigation agency. Like any other company it should not be expected to be competent to deal with this. It is not their responsibility. Rape is a criminal offence and should be dealt with by the police only.

[Airbubba]

Here is original Seattle Times story (as reprinted by the ADN News in ANC) which seems to be the basis for most of the follow-on stories in other media sources:

Co-pilot sues Alaska Airlines over alleged drugging, rape by flight captain during layover

Author: Lewis Kamb, The Seattle Times Updated: 12 hours ago Published 14 hours ago

It seemed like any other work stopover along Alaska Airlines' service route:

After arriving in Minneapolis, the captain and his co-pilot, Betty Pina, vanpooled to the flight crew's designated hotel and met up later in the concierge room set up with snacks and drinks for airline employees.

Afterward, there was supposed to be a short overnight stay, before the two piloted a return flight to Seattle the next morning.

But things turned fuzzy for Pina before she made it back to her hotel room that evening, she said.

It started with a glass of wine, Pina said, delivered to her by the captain — a veteran Alaska pilot she'd never met before they were teamed for the three-day assignment last June. Pina commented that her drink tasted funny, then after only a few sips, she couldn't keep her head up and felt the walls closing in.

"From there, I don't remember leaving the concierge room, the elevator ride or walking down the hallway to my room," Pina recalled during a recent interview. "When I woke up, everything was hazy. I remember seeing a figure, somebody pulling at my right ankle, and rolling over and trying to say 'No.' And then, I was out again."

The next time she came to, Pina said she found herself naked from the waist down in a bed wet with vomit. She said she also heard the captain, who was in the same room, admitting into a telephone that he'd been drinking to an unseen airline official.

Now, Pina, 39, a Seattle-area resident and decorated Army chopper pilot who has been flying commercial flights for Alaska since 2016, is suing the airline. Her suit claims Alaska Airlines is liable for its captain's alleged drugging and raping of her that night, and for its subsequent failure to hold him accountable after she reported what happened to airline officials.

"I'm infuriated that he's still working there," Pina said of the accused captain, who she said remains on Alaska's active seniority list for pilots.

In a statement early Wednesday, Alaska Airlines' chief spokeswoman Bobbie Egan declined to comment about Pina's allegations, citing the matter as "an open and active investigation."

"What we can say is that we are taking this matter seriously," Egan said. "The safety and well-being of our employees and guests is a top priority."

The accused captain — a 50-year-old veteran pilot and married Nevada resident — did not respond to a phone message left for him Wednesday. Although he is named in Pina's lawsuit, The Seattle Times is not identifying him because he has not been charged with a crime.

The Times generally does not name victims of alleged sexual assault, but Pina agreed to be identified.

After word of Pina's lawsuit emerged early Wednesday, an airline official contacted her and requested that she voluntarily withdraw from a scheduled work flight, according to her attorneys, Eric Makus and Lincoln Beauregard.

"Betty will fly as scheduled," said Makus, adding the official expressed a change in tone to Pina on Wednesday, offering "complete support" for her.

That's not quite how the airline previously handled the matter, Pina and her lawyers said during an interview Tuesday.

After recounting how she found her underwear inside her zipped-up purse in the captain's room that night, Pina said she regretted not immediately calling 911.

"That's when I knew I'd been assaulted," she said.

Instead, in the first foggy hours after the incident, Pina said she was racked by confusion and sickness — and the fear of losing a 17-year career in aviation that she'd dreamed about while growing up in Kansas.

"I'm worried about everything I've ever worked for," she said. "I'm not married, I don't have kids. My career has been my number one."

Pina said she's since learned that on the night of the incident, a flight attendant reported to the first officer on duty that he had observed the captain walking in a hotel hallway with two glasses of wine and a woman who appeared in danger.

"The crew member didn't feel comfortable flying with (the captain) the next day, so called the (first officer on duty)," Pina said.

That report triggered the duty officer's subsequent calls to the captain's room, asking about his fitness for duty, her lawsuit contends.

After the captain acknowledged drinking, the duty officer scratched the captain and Pina from piloting the return flight to Seattle, she said. The two instead were put in coach seating on a later flight bound for Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, Pina said.

Before and during the flight, Pina said the captain told her "that I'd been really drunk and had come on to him" the previous evening. She said he also tried to persuade her to "get our stories straight" to avoid putting their jobs at risk.

Back in Seattle, representatives for the pilots' union and airline officials questioned both pilots, taking statements over the next two days, Pina said.

Pina said she initially didn't feel comfortable reporting the rape, but changed her mind after returning home after the airline's interviews and finding "a handprint bruise" on her left thigh and other bruising.

Pina first reported the allegations to her union representative the night of June 7, two days after the alleged assault, and a day later to an Alaska human-resources official.

In early July, Pina said she detailed her allegations again to a lawyer, Marcella Reed, hired by the airline to investigate. The probe focused on whether the captain and Pina potentially violated the company's policy prohibiting pilots from consuming alcohol within 10 hours before a scheduled flight, she said.

The airline had placed Pina on paid leave beginning in June, telling her not to talk about its investigation, she said. Meantime, Reed took various statements and purportedly informed Pina in August that a review of the hotel's security video showed the captain tried to forcibly kiss Pina in an elevator.

"She said I was incapacitated, that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and this whole time he's trying to get me into the room, and I'm trying to put up whatever fight I can," Pina said.

Finally in December, Pina said, Alaska's Seattle base chief informed her that she'd soon be allowed to return to the cockpit. He also asked her: "Betty, let me ask you this, why didn't you press charges," Pina recalled.

"And until that moment, I thought telling my company and my supervisor is all I needed to do," Pina said. "I was shocked when he said that."

Pina was returned to active duty in January. She fears she may be forced to fly with the captain again — despite the base chief's promises that she won't.

She and her attorneys served the airlines with a legal complaint detailing her allegations in mid-February, largely relying on official summaries of Pina's formal statements to investigators. The airlines didn't take any corrective action, the lawyers said, so they formally filed suit on Wednesday in King County Superior Court.

"My hope is that by me doing this, it may protect other women," Pina said. "How many other victims are out there? I may not be the first case, but I hope to be the last. It's time to take responsibility. The culture needs to change. We can't sweep this under the rug any longer."

Pina said she's open to pursuing a criminal case against the captain.

"I wanted to get back in the cockpit flying before moving forward with anything," she said. "Now that I have, I am."

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2018/03/14/co-pilot-sues-alaska-airlines-over-alleged-drugging-rape-by-flight-captain-during-layover/

[aterpster]

Here is original Seattle Times story (as reprinted by the ADN News in ANC) which seems to be the basis for most of the follow-on stories in other media sources:



https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2018/03/14/co-pilot-sues-alaska-airlines-over-alleged-drugging-rape-by-flight-captain-during-layover/

By all means, Miss, file a criminal complaint. However, without a timely filing and rape kit, it will go nowhere.

[Lonewolf_50]

After arriving in Minneapolis, the captain and his co-pilot, Betty Pina, vanpooled to the flight crew's designated hotel and met up later in the concierge room set up with snacks and drinks for airline employees.
Afterward, there was supposed to be a short overnight stay, before the two piloted a return flight to Seattle the next morning. As I don't see a time tag for the landing/next day's takeoff, I wonder what Alaska Airlines rules are on having a cocktail during trips between sectors.
I would hope that the rule on "bottle to throttle/bottle to brief" are well spelled out, or that the SOP has crystal clear guidance on that. "The crew member didn't feel comfortable flying with (the captain) the next day, so called the (first officer on duty)," Pina said. That report triggered the duty officer's subsequent calls to the captain's room, asking about his fitness for duty, her lawsuit contends. After the captain acknowledged drinking, the duty officer scratched the captain and Pina from piloting the return flight to Seattle, she said. The two instead were put in coach seating on a later flight bound for Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, Pina said. There appears to have been something not quite right going on, but as that is a news story, and Alaska Air doubtless have more detailed info, it's wait and see ... from what is in the article, it would appear that the FO tried to work within the system, and has gotten frustrated with the response.

[aterpster]

.. from what is in the article, it would appear that the FO tried to work within the system, and has gotten frustrated with the response.

There is too much "he said, she said" in the current environment throughout the western world.. Rape is a criminal matter, and the first order of business to work within the system is to call the police while in the jurisdiction in which a rape occurred.

[KelvinD]

aterpster: I don't know about you but I have never been raped. Probably because I am an ugly S.O.B., I don't know.
The point is it is all very well sitting there pontificating on what should or should not be done. Until it happens to you, you have no idea what sort of thought processes/emotions may drive your next actions.
So, until it happens to you and you have personal experience to use as a yardstick, I suggest you stop preaching the old "should have done this, should have done that" dogma.

[Airbubba]

another "me too"

From a news article quoting the civil complaint:

Pina's complaint, filed by Tacoma attorney Lincoln C. Beauregard, names only Alaska Airlines as a defendant, accusing the company of committing "grossly abusive actions (that) epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #MeToo movement."

Alaska Airlines spokeswoman Ann Johnson said the captain has been grounded by the airline pending "an open and active investigation."

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2018/03/14/alaska-airlines-captain-sexual-assault-lawsuit.html

I thought they said the airline already did an investigation, right? Will they do another one to get the 'correct' result?

Seems odd to me that the accuser was given six months off after claiming that she was raped while drunk on a short layover. It's hard to imagine an incident involving alcohol and pilots in the modern era where HIMS and the feds wouldn't get involved.

As I don't see a time tag for the landing/next day's takeoff, I wonder what Alaska Airlines rules are on having a cocktail during trips between sectors.

I'm told Alaska has a 10 hour rule on abstention from alcohol consumption before performing flight duties.

Alaska Airlines was famously sued for cockpit porn in 1995 by a female MD-80 captain and a large cash settlement was reached. Her husband's unfortunate subsequent demise on Mount Everest was chronicled in Jon Krakeur's 1997 bestseller Into Thin Air.

[axefurabz]

Why is this "front page" news?

[aterpster]

aterpster: I don't know about you but I have never been raped. Probably because I am an ugly S.O.B., I don't know.
The point is it is all very well sitting there pontificating on what should or should not be done. Until it happens to you, you have no idea what sort of thought processes/emotions may drive your next actions.
So, until it happens to you and you have personal experience to use as a yardstick, I suggest you stop preaching the old "should have done this, should have done that" dogma.
Please skip the lecture. Professional women in American society are well versed on the necessary steps to report the crime of rape on a timely basis. This woman is a sophisticated professional, not a backwoods farm wife.

[PaxBritannica]

Please skip the lecture. Professional women in American society are well versed on the necessary steps to report the crime of rape on a timely basis. This woman is a sophisticated professional, not a backwoods farm wife.
Rape is not a professional act. It's an act of sexual violence by a man against a woman (usually). It shocks the victim in a unique way, and no level of training or professional experience in another field helps the victim to deal with this kind of act. In a situation like the one described it can take time to process what's happened and conclude that rape actually occurred - the mind wants to deny and avoid. It's especially traumatic when the woman has always been treated with respect by fellow professionals. And a rape victim, however uninformed, usually knows that reporting the crime will lead to a long a shaming nightmare with men who will be judgemental and unsupportive.

Rape is not like being mugged.

[FCeng84]

Why is this "front page" news?

This is front page news because we have here what appears to possibly be a case of a tainted drink being used to facilitate a rape by one airline pilot of another. The victim here chose at first to seek justice within the organization of the airline involved. Finding that result to be less than satisfactory she is now seeking justice in a public forum.

The fact that the victim has allowed her name to be made public is a testament to her strength and her conviction that unacceptable behavior needs like this needs to be identified as such and actions taken to make sure that it does not happen again. As the father of two young adult daughters I applaud this pilot speaking out and feel that the future for my girls will be brighter and safer for the courage and voice of the victim here.

This story is a reminder that any problems that arise as a result of diversity in our work environments are most often not the responsibility of the few who are bringing a new look to our work forces. Problems are most often the responsibility of those in the majority who are unable to treat all with the respect and dignity that they deserve. The message to all who would take advantage of others in unlawful or unethical ways must be that there are many eyes watching them and many willing to use their voices to call for truth and justice.

I limit most of my contributions to PP to the technical discussion threads where I feel that I am most qualified to contribute. The entry in this thread questioning why the focus on this topic has motivated me to contribute here.

[J.O.]

Please skip the lecture. Professional women in American society are well versed on the necessary steps to report the crime of rape on a timely basis. This woman is a sophisticated professional, not a backwoods farm wife.

Please list your personal experience in dealing with such personal traumas. If you have none, I suggest you stop digging a hole you’ll never climb out from.

[aterpster]

Please list your personal experience in dealing with such personal traumas. If you have none, I suggest you stop digging a hole you’ll never climb out from.
I have many, all of which I choose not to disclose.

What hole am I digging?

[Blind Squirrel]

The British male sexual-violence support organisation Survivors UK recently carried out a study on behalf of the Greater London Authority to find out reporting rates among men.

Of the 500 male rape victims included in the survey, 3.9% reported their rape to the Plod.

Perhaps the other 96.1% are lying about having been attacked. Personally, I don't think so.

Reporting rates among women are believed to be higher. But not hugely so, even today. A very large study by the U.S. Department of Justice in 2010 found that two out of three rapes of women are never reported.

[Gauges and Dials]

Are any of the folks on here asking "Why didn't she report it to the police at the time," women?

[Airbubba]

It appears that Betty Pina has flown helos for the Army and Coast Guard and as a production test pilot for Boeing. She was a DHC-8 Q400 first officer at Horizon and was apparently on first year probation as a 737 first officer at Alaska when the incident in MSP allegedly occurred. She was hired at Alaska in November 2016 according to an online profile that she posted.

The lawsuit filed yesterday states the alleged rape in her narrative as though it is an established fact.

From the filed Complaint for Damages: Workplace Rape:

This lawsuit against Alaska Airlines arises form [sic] the workplace drugging and raping of Ms. Pina by another Alaska Airlines employee, Paul Engelien.

Mr. Englien is a senior pilot. Mr. Engelien drugged and raped Ms. Pina during an overnight stay in Minneapolis on a flight from Anchorage to Seattle to Minneapolis.

The entire event was investigated by Alaska Airlines, and reflected in the referenced investigation summary compiled by Marcella Fleming Reed, J.D.

The tie-in to the #MeToo movement is in this paragraph:

Mr. Engelien’s actions, as the supervising officer on the flight, constitute violations of Washington Laws Against Discrimination, sexual assault, and negligence. Given Mr. Engelien’s position of authority on the flight and within the company, Alaska Airlines is liable for the violations stated herein. Mr. Engelien’s grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #metoo movement. Further, the actions on the part of Alaska Airlines after the incident could be construed as unlawfully retaliatory.

Some questions seem to arise.

If the company investigation found that the rape occurred, why was the accuser given six months off the line? Was it paid medical leave? Did she request it?

Was the captain grounded since the reported incident? Or was he taken off the line yesterday when the media started calling?

Was the alleged victim afraid to go public with the story until she was off probation and suddenly empowered by the groundswell of the #MeToo movement?

The captain appears to possibly be a military veteran from the Air Force but I can't find much online about him except his Twitter picture with a drink (it may be coffee) in his hand.

[Blind Squirrel]

Are any of the folks on here asking "Why didn't she report it to the police at the time," women?

Probably not. Unfortunately, some do exist. I've run into the "Videotape, or it didn't happen" types among both sexes.

Oddly enough, this only happens with sexual violence. If I tell people, for example, that my laptop computer was stolen from my car, nobody says:-

* What did you do to provoke the thief?

* If it really was stolen, you ought to be able to show me the police report.

* How do you know the thief didn't genuinely believe you were giving your computer away?

* You're just saying your computer was stolen because you like attention.

* It serves you right for having a computer in the first place.

* You lucky bastard...hell, I wish somebody'd steal my computer.

Etc.

[Mk 1]

Blind Squirrel, Pax and Kelvin have the right approach. She probably awoke, realised that this wasn't good then with a splitting headache and feeling crook headed off to get showered (remember the vomit?). She was clearly confused and probably embarrassed and possibly wasn't sure she had just drunk too much.

Then later after piecing together the "this isn't right" bits, how and where she woke up, the lets get the story straight conversation, the bruise and a growing feeling of dread she realised that she had probably been raped.

What to do.... she has probably showered a couple of times, its 24+ hours after the event (so will there be any DNA evidence), if she goes to the police and it turns out there is insufficient proof then her career is finished (probation etc).

All in all she's in a very tough position. Particularly if the pilot has long standing in the company etc.

Unfortunately, I'm guessing if its true that this isn't the first time the captain has drugged a victim. I wonder will we hear from more coming out of the woodwork?

[Council Van]

Has she made a formal complaint to the police yet?

[4EvahLearning]

I'm female, never been raped, not a pilot, tertiary educated and of above average intelligence - just. I wondered why she didn't report to the police but then I only have to think back to the odd time or two I have been sexually assaulted, not raped, and think about the utter confusion one is presented with in one's own head.

1. I can't believe this person I work with just did that?
2. Is it really as serious as I think?
3. Did it really happen?
4. Who do I tell?

I reported it to my manager, the response was "that's not good. better stay away from him."

Come on guys...it isn't clear cut even when totally sober. This woman's head would have been all over the place until the drug in her system wore off. This thread sounds like a total vilification of the "she" in order to lessen, or detract from, the culpability of the "he". One can't blame her for her actions given the attitude of the males one reads on this forum.

This can't possibly have been a one-off either. What's the bet other victims speak out now and every single one of them will be subjected to the scrutiny and misongynistic judgement by you holier-than-thou males who have never made a bad judgement call in your lives.

(I would like to mention I note not all viewpoints expressed on this thread by males lack support or compassion for this woman)

[Council Van]

This can't possibly have been a one-off either. What's the bet other victims speak out now and every single one of them will be subjected to the scrutiny and misongynistic judgement by you holier-than-thou males who have never made a bad judgement call in your lives.
You feel he is GUILTY and your judgement is based on a news paper article?

[ironbutt57]

here we see the beginning of the end of a career based solely on unsubstantiated accusations....

[Herod]

4EvahLearning.

Thanks for putting some balance into the argument. It does help to put the woman's point of view on it. I'm not coming down on either side here, just trying to get a balanced view of why it has turned out the way it has.

[atpcliff]

In the US, less than 50% of women report their rapes/assaults. Some of the reasons they don't report can be read right here in this thread.

I urge everyone reading this to try and be more understanding of other humans. I am trying to be more understanding myself...

[Airbubba]

Looks like the story is getting traction in the activist #MeToo media movement. It appears that the alleged victim has hired an agent and will be making appearances on network morning shows next week.

On the basis of her experience of over a year as 'a pilot for a major airline' (six months of it on leave of absence) Ms. Pina says the issue of rape is not dealt with in the industry.

From the ABC News Good Morning America web page:

Alaska Airlines pilot accuses co-pilot [sic] of rape in lawsuit, calls it a 'not-dealt-with issue in our industry'

By Catherine Thorbecke
Sabina Ghebremedhin
Mar 16, 2018, 8:09 AM ET

An Alaska Airlines pilot who is suing her employer, claiming that she was drugged and raped by her co-pilot during a layover, said she believes that what happened to her is an industry-wide issue that is often "swept under the rug."

"I believe that this is an under-reported, swept-under-the-rug, not-dealt-with issue in our industry," Betty Pina, an Alaska Airlines first officer and former military pilot, told ABC News. "It's not just our airline."

Pina's lawsuit comes on the heels of the worldwide #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, which see hundreds of women speaking out against sexual harassment and misconduct, especially in the workplace.

The lawsuit argues that Engelien's "grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #MeToo movement."

Alaska Airlines pilot accuses co-pilot of rape in lawsuit, calls it a 'not-dealt-with issue in our industry' - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/alaska-airlines-pilot-accuses-pilot-rape-lawsuit-calls/story?id=53785721)

[EternalNY1]

Why is this "front page" news?

You are joking, right?

A pilot is accused of raping another pilot and you think this should NOT be front page news?

[RatherBeFlying]

As we are seeing, it doesn't work well.

Harrassment, unwanted comments, touching, advances and suchlike are generally workplace matters that can be referred to HR.

Drugging and rape are for the police to handle. HR is simply unequipped to take over a criminal situation from the police.

Yes, the lady dropped the ball by not immediately calling the police or at least a rape crisis support center. Now that the criminal case can probably no longer be
made, she's trying to to get HR to play cop.

That said, waking up while still drugged and not knowing what happened, she was likely not fully rational at the moment. People are rarely at their best in a crime or accident scene. They are almost always taken by surprise.

[Lonewolf_50]

One of the posters up-thread mentioned the point about the FO being on probation when this event (a roofie in the wine, it would appear?) took place. That little tidbit adds another layer of worry about reporting what happened. The crew are already on the hot seat, as I understand the news story, since an FA called in and said "I think they were drinking" and after a call to the captain the crew was replaced. (Apologies if I have misunderstood that part).
Per accounts by my friends who joined the airline industry back in the 80's -- when on probation they don't even need to provide a reason to let you go. I suspect that is an oversimplification of the situation, but that's how it felt to a lot of new FO's whom I kept in touch with.
Beyond the confusion of the drugged state and the "WTF happened?" reaction the "if I report it I'll be done due to probation and being too much trouble to the company that I worked so hard to get a job with" ... that is a hell of a tough spot to be in for the FO.



The part that really grinds on my brain, though, is that they, the crew, the Captain and the FO, had a sector to fly the next day and someone put a roofie in the FO's glass of wine?
If that is in fact true, that's just effed up:
(1) don't treat people like that, would you want someone doing that to your daughter/sister?
(2) FFS, flight safety!

[aterpster]

here we see the beginning of the end of a career based solely on unsubstantiated accusations....

That's the problem with this thread. It is predicated on a news article that consists only of accusations.

We usually do better in Rumors & News with accidents, incidents, and drunk pilots caught at check-in, because there is at least a modicum of fact.

Having said that, I trust justice will prevail for the principals in this episode.

If, in fact, the F/O was raped by the captain, I weep for her that the layover hotel did not become a crime scene at the time. If, in fact, he raped her and that was proven in a criminal court of law, he should have been sentenced to a very long jail term.

But, none of this happened on a timely basis.

We are now reduced to a civil action, which in cases like this, are always suspect, unlike a criminal proceeding with conviction.

[atpcliff]

IMHO this is the problem with so many cases like this. Alaska Airlines is an airline, not an investigation agency. Like any other company it should not be expected to be competent to deal with this. It is not their responsibility. Rape is a criminal offence and should be dealt with by the police only.

So, if Alaska Airlines felt they could not investigate this situation competently, why didn't they go to law enforcement with the situation, or why didn't they help their FO go to law enforcement with the situation? If they had done this, they probably wouldn't be the subject of a lawsuit right now.

[4468]

So here’s the problem.

One employee makes a very serious allegation against another employee. Yet due to the timing of the allegation, (never made to the police!) no ‘incontrovertible’ evidence is available.

Two reasonably plausible versions of events remain entirely possible.

Yet there’s an ‘outraged’ expectation that just making such a heinous allegation, without any reasonable due process, or ‘competent’ investigation should alone, be sufficient to end the career of one individual? In other words. The allegation is SO serious, it can’t possibly be wrong, so why bother requiring proof?

Can I just ask. In this #MeToo, #Time’sUp era. When did we jettison the fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty?

The place to test allegations of serious criminal offences, is in a court of law. Not in the press. On daytime TV, or amongst Hollywood activists.

Nor frankly, in the HR department of an organisation, threatened with massive litigation, if they get their deliberations ‘wrong’!

[Cynical Sid]

Another problem is that none of the action against the company or a private prosecution against him will put him in prison. IF he is guilty of this crime then the only place he should be is prison to protect others. Only the police can do that.

[Ollie Onion]

The problem is that she seems to have NOT reported this to the police, now I understand that a good amount of these types of assaults / attacks go unreported but unfortunately the lack of report makes this a 'nothing to see here' scenario.

I assume that there was no rape kit, blood samples or breath tests administered so what can actually be proven here...... nothing. It is a purely he said she said scenario. Expecting the airline to act on what is effectively an unfounded and impossible to prove allegation is a bit naive.

We can't have Pilots getting fired months down the track for a complaint like this, as it was said earlier, Alaskan Airlines is not an investigative body and expecting them to decide careers on the basis of this evidence is just not on. How do we know she was drugged, where is the evidence? How do we know they actually engaged in intercourse, where is the evidence? The complainant needs something a bit more solid that accusations if you ask me?

[PaxBritannica]

Reading the news reports carefully, it looks as if the female pilot's initial intention was to alert the company that one of their pilots was a serious problem. She didn't intend to report a rape and get him charged. I imagine she thought the company would investigate and take appropriate action.

Instead, the company effectively suspended her for six months and did nothing at all about the male pilot. I imagine they hoped she'd get fed up and leave, chalking it up to experience. When she didn't, they were forced to allow her back to work, where she discovered that this man was still flying, and still potentially being rostered with female pilots. Perhaps even herself.

It looks as if, at that point, she realised that she would have to go to law and expose both the pilot and the company in public.

[4468]

PaxBritannica

She is indeed reverting to lawyers to address her grievance.
Now, Pina, 39, a Seattle-area resident and decorated Army chopper pilot who has been flying commercial flights for Alaska since 2016, is suing the airline. Her suit claims Alaska Airlines is liable for its captain's alleged drugging and raping of her that night, and for its subsequent failure to hold him accountable after she reported what happened to airline officials.

"I'm infuriated that he's still working there," Pina said of the accused captain, who she said remains on Alaska's active seniority list for pilots.

It is for others to note however, that she is not seeking to prove her allegation of rape in a court of law, by going to the police. She merely demands her version of events be believed, whilst the alleged ‘attacker’s’ version must be discounted.

That is a big problem! A section of society is being encouraged to believe, they can make very serious allegations with impunity. Expecting the alleged ‘assailant’ to bear the consequences of such an accusation. Without there ever being any inconvenience of proving such an event actually took place!

She admits to being “infuriated that he’s still working there”.

Meanwhile the lawsuit for ‘unspecified damages’, (read, demand for a life changing sum of money!) rumbles on. At the same time apparently, as launching a media tour.

This is not the way to deal with rape, or rapists! It doesn’t get them off the streets. It protects nobody!

Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)

[PA28161]

This is front page news because we have here what appears to possibly be a case of a tainted drink being used to facilitate a rape by one airline pilot of another. The victim here chose at first to seek justice within the organization of the airline involved. Finding that result to be less than satisfactory she is now seeking justice in a public forum.

The fact that the victim has allowed her name to be made public is a testament to her strength and her conviction that unacceptable behavior needs like this needs to be identified as such and actions taken to make sure that it does not happen again. As the father of two young adult daughters I applaud this pilot speaking out and feel that the future for my girls will be brighter and safer for the courage and voice of the victim here.

This story is a reminder that any problems that arise as a result of diversity in our work environments are most often not the responsibility of the few who are bringing a new look to our work forces. Problems are most often the responsibility of those in the majority who are unable to treat all with the respect and dignity that they deserve. The message to all who would take advantage of others in unlawful or unethical ways must be that there are many eyes watching them and many willing to use their voices to call for truth and justice.

I limit most of my contributions to PP to the technical discussion threads where I feel that I am most qualified to contribute. The entry in this thread questioning why the focus on this topic has motivated me to contribute here.
And your point is?

[aterpster]

Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)

Preponderance of evidence in a civil case. Definitely a lower bar than a criminal trial. Also, in most jurisdictions the verdict doesn't have to be unanimous unlike a criminal trial. If the lawsuit was filed in Minnesota the jury can vary from 6 to 12 jurors and the verdict has to be unanimous. (from Goggle, I am not an attorney.)

Remember OJ Simpson was found not guilty in the criminal trial, but subsequently found civilly liable in a subsequent civil trial. Justice was not served in that case.

[aterpster]

In the US, less than 50% of women report their rapes/assaults. Some of the reasons they don't report can be read right here in this thread.

I urge everyone reading this to try and be more understanding of other humans. I am trying to be more understanding myself...
That is true when there is no evidence of injury to the female. But, if there is evidence of battery and a rape kit, conviction is almost certain.

The airlines apparently should have a report-of-rape procedure in place to freeze the crew at the layover and get the police to the scene.

Contrary to some sexist statements, female airline pilots aren't going away. I have a close friend who was in training management at a major carrier. He said some of the best pilots are females. I trained two many years ago when I was a GA instructor. Both were well above average.

As far as having babies and all that, most segments of industry seem to deal with that just fine.

[triploss]

That is true when there is no evidence of injury to the female. But, if there is evidence of battery and a rape kit, conviction is almost certain.

The airlines apparently should have a report-of-rape procedure in place to freeze the crew at the layover and get the police to the scene.

Contrary to some sexist statements, female airline pilots aren't going away. I have a close friend who was in training management at a major carrier. He said some of the best pilots are females. I trained two many years ago when I was a GA instructor. Both were well above average.

As far as having babies and all that, most segments of industry seem to deal with that just fine.

It's worth remembering: it generally takes two to make a baby.

Anyhow in the more progressive countries there's such a thing as paternity leave (in addition to maternity leave), so the baby will "steal" "your" employee regardless of them being female. (And plenty of employers add additional leave on top of the mandatory minimums.) I gather that isn't the case in the country where AS are located though.

[PaxBritannica]

Ask yourself what you would have done.

You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.

Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.

It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.

So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.

The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.

Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.

Right, so now what do you do?

Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.

Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.

What's left?

Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do?

[The Nip]

Maybe someone would like to propose how this alleged incident will be solved? How can there be a final verdict that either party will find comfortable.
IMHO there are no winners here.

[4468]

What would I have done?

Allegations of rape can, and should, only be dealt with by the courts. To take any other course of action other than reporting it to the police. Firstly prevents the alleged perpetrator from defending themselves in a court of law. But it also prevents the alleged perpetrator being taken off the streets if they are found guilty!

Look. It’s not rocket science!

Delaying the allegation, merely served to prevent this lady from establishing she had been drugged. However, some may infer conveniently. It also denied the ‘defendant’ from establishing her blood alcohol level.

As far as I can tell, there is no claim that either intercourse, or assault ever took place?

This looks like a very serious allegation with very little supporting evidence.

Absolutely perfect fodder for those of the #MeToo persuasion, who find the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” a little too problematic for their cause. So they prefer other, less stringent, means of ‘prosecuting’ their case!

[flyboyike]

Probably not. Unfortunately, some do exist. I've run into the "Videotape, or it didn't happen" types among both sexes.

Oddly enough, this only happens with sexual violence. If I tell people, for example, that my laptop computer was stolen from my car, nobody says:-

* What did you do to provoke the thief?

* If it really was stolen, you ought to be able to show me the police report.

* How do you know the thief didn't genuinely believe you were giving your computer away?

* You're just saying your computer was stolen because you like attention.

* It serves you right for having a computer in the first place.

* You lucky bastard...hell, I wish somebody'd steal my computer.

Etc.

The insurance company may ask to see a police report, should you file a claim for the computer in question.

Just something to think about...

[flyboyike]

Ask yourself what you would have done.

You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused....

I'm a bit of a "stick-in-the-mud/click-and-slam" type, and I don't drink at all, so I can't speak from personal experience, but something tells me that coworkers of the opposite sex and alcohol are a dangerous combination.

Call it a hunch, I guess...

[Ollie Onion]

Ask yourself what you would have done.

You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.

Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.

It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.

So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.

The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.

Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.

Right, so now what do you do?

Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.

Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.

What's left?

Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do

The problem is you can just as easily say the same thing from the opposite side! Imagine you are the Captain involved in this, you started to have a few drinks with your FO and things got a bit out of control and the next thing you remember you wake up with a splitting hangover lying in bed with your FO who has vomited everywhere. In shock you get up and go to the bathroom to clean yourself up trying to remember is you had intercourse with this woman.

Another airline employee reports that you have both been drinking heavily and you are removed from duty and paced home, during the flight you rather awkwardly raise the nights events with your FO and suggest that you should try and figure out what happened so your stories match,,,,,,,, she seems to be acting weirdly. You get a bollocking from you manager and told to go home and to never do that again, you are returned to normal duties, thankgod they didn’t breath test me you think. Two weeks later you are contacted to be told the FO has said that she would never drink to excess like that and has accused you of not only drugging her but also raping her even though she has no memory of the night, this doesn’t seem right, you don’t even know what a date rape drug is and you have never forced anyone to do anything sexual in your life before. The company says that you can keep flying as there is no evidence of wrong doing at this point, you hope it all blows over as how would you explain this to you wife? Months later your world falls apart when you are named in a lawsuit against the airline and it is now nationally reported front page news about this nightstop! You worry that your marriage and career could be over, you are confused and worried..... what should you do?

[flyboyike]

Imagine you are the Captain involved in this, you started to have a few drinks with your FO and things got a bit out of control...

I don't know, Ollie, I'm probably a little old-fashioned (despite being relatively young), but I believe there are things a Captain (as opposed to just an employee with four stripes sitting in the left seat) just shouldn't do. Part of my job is to keep my crew safe and legal (including, to the extent possible, on overnights). If other crewmembers want to get liquored up, that's their business, but if "things got out of control" with MY PARTICIPATION, to me that's a reflection on my leadership abilities (or lack thereof).

I realize I'm probably in the minority on this, but it is what it is.

[Ollie Onion]

^^^ ai can see what you are saying and somewhat agree but I have been in the situation myself where I have had to wake a Captain up who is on the Bathroom floor of his hotel room drunk after an out of control nightstop where he disappeared from the reastaurant we were at. He had to call in ‘sick’ for our duty and to this day can’t remember what happened or where he went. So it does happen.

[Lascaille]

Ask yourself what you would have done.

You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused.

What would I have done? Called the police immediately, because the only way that situation would have come about would have been through poisoning.

I'm sorry but do adult people really get 'blackout' drunk sufficiently regularly that they have to ask themselves in the morning 'was I drugged or was it just me?'

Quite how much do you have to drink to forget the events? I've put away two bottles of wine on more than one occasion and still remembered clambering laboriously into bed taking care to leave one foot touching the floor to ward off the dreaded 'bed spins'...

[PaxBritannica]

@Ollie

Your point is fair: the point I was making is that the woman's actions are entirely consistent with her perception of the situation. She appears to have behaved perfectly rationally.

The New York Times reported:
She started working for Alaska Airlines in 2016. She said that after years in the military, she was accustomed to reporting problems only to her superiors. That, she said, might explain why she did not report what happened to the police when she returned to the Seattle area.

“I never thought to call the police,” she said. “I was more worried about my job than my own personal safety.”

But over time, she said, “I knew I failed myself.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/travel/alaska-air-pilot-rape.html

The male pilot may be a) guilty as charged, b) guilty 'only' of a drunken extramarital shag, or c) entirely innocent. Whichever it is, I believe he has a valid case against Alaska Airlines for not investigating the situation properly and compiling evidence to exonerate him. (Hotel staff, notoriously ephemeral, would still have been around to question. Colleagues would have fresh memories.) They had over six months, after all - plenty of time. Suspicious minds might think they were leaving it as long as possible to let the trail go cold and the female pilot go off to another company. They should have strongly suggested that she report the rape to the police and secure all evidence.

The parties in question are shown here, not that it's relevant: Alaska Airlines pilot accused of rape grounded as shocking details emerge, outcry grows | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/03/15/alaska-airlines-pilot-accused-rape-grounded-as-shocking-details-emerge-outcry-grows.html). My immediate reaction, I confess, was to feel sceptical that she would 'come onto him pretty hard', although people's tastes are individual and skygods are of course irresistible.

[PaxBritannica]

What would I have done? Called the police immediately, because the only way that situation would have come about would have been through poisoning.

I'm sorry but do adult people really get 'blackout' drunk sufficiently regularly that they have to ask themselves in the morning 'was I drugged or was it just me?'

Quite how much do you have to drink to forget the events? I've put away two bottles of wine on more than one occasion and still remembered clambering laboriously into bed taking care to leave one foot touching the floor to ward off the dreaded 'bed spins'...

@Lascaille: Do you know much about date-rape drugs? They leave the victim confused and disorientated, especially on waking. The victim is likely to have very little capacity to think straight at all, never mind contact the police. (These drugs can kill.) There are memory blanks - you may not remember who you were with or what you were doing. It's not a state that most humans have ever been in, so there's little point of reference - you're struggling to make sense of an unfamiliar sense of illness.

Two bottles of wine don't register on the scale.

[Lascaille]

@Lascaille: Do you know much about date-rape drugs? They leave the victim confused and disorientated, especially on waking.

Yes, that's exactly my point. That's exactly why I would call the police, because the situation would be completely foreign and one I would never anticipate reaching through alcohol alone.

My point was exactly that - do people regularly drink such huge quantities that they would find themselves in that situation in the morning and really think 'wow, must have overdone it again?' Because as you've rightly said, 2 bottles of wine doesn't even come close...

[wiedehopf]

Yes, that's exactly my point. That's exactly why I would call the police, because the situation would be completely foreign and one I would never anticipate reaching through alcohol alone.

My point was exactly that - do people regularly drink such huge quantities that they would find themselves in that situation in the morning and really think 'wow, must have overdone it again?' Because as you've rightly said, 2 bottles of wine doesn't even come close...

as someone just tried to tell you.... i'll try again

your logical reasoning skills are severly impaired after waking up because the drugs are STILL having an effect.

[Redlands]

I just trudged home and went back too sleep for another 12 hrs, am still non the wiser..

[G-CPTN]

AFAIK, date-rape drugs are similar to the drugs administered to endoscopy patients.
The drug induces 'compliance' with instructions - even though the normal (undrugged) reaction would be to fight the (unpleasant) activity, then, after the patient has slept, they awake with all memory of the period erased - there is no possibility of recalling events - none at all.
It isn't 'just a dream', there is just a totally blank period (and no sense of 'missing').

I have had several 'endoscopy' procedures under the influence of memory drugs that, apparently leave you alert and aware during the operation but then wipe the memory.

For the first one I emerged from the theatre and gave a full verbal account to my wife of what had happened, then, after a brief sleep awoke and denied of all knowledge of the events.

For subsequent operations I was unaccompanied, but I have absolutely no recall of any intrusive activity.

[4468]

anyway the reasons for not going to the police are not that important but it might mean you can't prove rape.

not going to the police on the other does not prove that there was no rape.
I don’t disagree.

But in law, if you can’t prove that there was rape. Then the defendant is not guilty of the allegation. They should be free to continue with their lives. It’s really very simple.

If you don’t even bother taking recourse in law, then frankly, any allegation is nothing more than an untested grievance. It would be perfectly reasonable to ask, why have you not taken this to the police?

As I have said. This isn’t rocket science!

Is there anyone that can disagree?

“Law and freedom must be indivisible partners. For without law, there can be no freedom, only chaos and disorder; and without freedom, law is but a cynical veneer for injustice and oppression.”

The law, is fundamental to society as we know it. To seek to subvert it, damages our freedom, and the quality of life itself.

#MeToo and #Time’sUp (etc) seem to wish to bypass the inconvenience of the law?

Do tell me how I’m wrong?

[aterpster]

I'm a bit of a "stick-in-the-mud/click-and-slam" type, and I don't drink at all, so I can't speak from personal experience, but something tells me that coworkers of the opposite sex and alcohol are a dangerous combination.

Call it a hunch, I guess...

One on one, I would agree. But, back in the mid-1960s when all the F/As were female and all the pilots were male, we had some grand parties on long layovers. Nothing bad happened. There were the occasional romantic encounters, but by mutual consent.

[G-CPTN]

Another aspect of the endoscope drugs is the calming nature of their effect, conveying that 'all is well', so anyone recovering from an attack is likely to view the situation as 'nothing to be concerned about'.
Mental reaction is not what would be expected without the the drug effect.

Any thought of 'outrage' just would not occur.

[PaxBritannica]

I don’t disagree.

But in law, if you can’t prove that there was rape. Then the defendant is not guilty of the allegation. They should be free to continue with their lives. It’s really very simple.

If you don’t even bother taking recourse in law, then frankly, any allegation is nothing more than an untested grievance. It would be perfectly reasonable to ask, why have you not taken this to the police?

As I have said. This isn’t rocket science!

Is there anyone that can disagree?

“Law and freedom must be indivisible partners. For without law, there can be no freedom, only chaos and disorder; and without freedom, law is but a cynical veneer for injustice and oppression.”

The law, is fundamental to society as we know it. To seek to subvert it, damages our freedom, and the quality of life itself.

#MeToo and #Time’sUp (etc) seem to wish to bypass the inconvenience of the law?

Do tell me how I’m wrong?

Technically, you have a point - a person can't be punished for a crime unless the crime can be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Rape, however, is a unique crime. By its nature, rape is very hard to prove to the standards of other crimes. Even physical evidence such as semen, bruising and injuries are not conclusive proof, especially if both parties are known to each other. The specific nature of the crime - which is violent and ego-destructive - often leads to victims taking time to decide to contact the police, further weakening their case. (Date-rape drugs, by the way, don't always hang around in the system long enough to be detected. Some are gone in a few hours.) Rape is a uniquely traumatic crime, and expecting victims to respond as if they've come downstairs to discover a burglary is unreasonable.

One of the cunning things about rape / sexual assault is that victims remain in isolation, unaware of each other and unable to bolster each other's account. A rape trial isn't usually a class action. #MeToo was a platform that allowed many victims to speak up, so that the MO of individual men could be discerned. A lot of men had their careers trashed because their employers knew that if just one accuser went to court, the accused would lose...because for the first time there would be lots of corroborating witnesses. The employers chose to avoid crippling legal bills and bad publicity in pursuit of a guaranteed loss. Perhaps a few men went down unfairly on the basis of a single complaint. But ask yourself how many men avoided a criminal conviction by heading quickly for the door?

The male pilot in the Alaskan case is indeed currently free to live his life, and will remain free to live his life after the trial. The case is being brought against Alaskan Airways, not him. Whether he's employable depends on what emerges about him during the trial. If he's pure as the driven snow, his reputation will survive. Won't it?

[4EvahLearning]

You feel he is GUILTY and your judgement is based on a news paper article?

Actually I believe in letting "the facts talk". My response is to those who have declared HER "guilty" of attempting to ruin a male colleagues career and deciding he must be innocent because she didn't go to the police straight away.

These issues are always complex although if there was a rape, then justice must be meted out without villifying the victim for reporting it.

You know what, I just had a thought. This really is the argument you need to put a stop to women being pilots. Just look at the trouble they cause, all because they want to do a man's job.

[aterpster]

Actually I believe in letting "the facts talk". My response is to those who have declared HER "guilty" of attempting to ruin a male colleagues career and deciding he must be innocent because she didn't go to the police straight away.

These issues are always complex although if there was a rape, then justice must be meted out without villifying the victim for reporting it.

You know what, I just had a thought. This really is the argument you need to put a stop to women being pilots. Just look at the trouble they cause, all because they want to do a man's job.

Your points are well made. We need to "let the facts talk" for sake of all involved.

I await that.

[Airbubba]

Looks like the FO's tearful interview was the lead story on Friday's Good Morning America, video has been added to the link posted earlier:

Alaska Airlines pilot accuses co-pilot of rape in lawsuit, calls it a 'not-dealt-with issue in our industry' - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/alaska-airlines-pilot-accuses-pilot-rape-lawsuit-calls/story?id=53785721)

The actual lawsuit as filed is here:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4411327-Pina-v-Alaska-Airlines.html

The suit appears long on accusations and short on evidence to me.

I've been told in other cases that the civil suit is sometimes filed to get things like internal HR documents, emails and investigation results into the court system and potentially into the public domain.

Since this discovery phase can be costly and possibly promote negative media coverage for the defendant, particularly in the #MeToo era, there is pressure to reach a settlement before the case goes to trial.

According to the court document linked above, the captain said 'We're f****d, we're f****d.' Obviously the FO was thinking 'What do you mean we, Kemosabe?'

I'm guessing that the airline will settle for several million dollars rather than risk a media circus trial in a progressive Seattle courtroom.

A couple of details in the lawsuit that catch my eye. It is acknowledged that the captain denied any sexual contact. Also, the suit mentions that the FO took her birth control pill the next morning. Are these details mentioned to correlate with previous testimony in the company's investigation which will be uncovered by a discovery subpoena?

[Rated De]

here we see the beginning of the end of a career based solely on unsubstantiated accusations...In complete agreement.
World wide there appears a whole lot of accusations are leveled in the media, certainly not through the legal process that result in untold damage to the accused without even a modicum of process involved.

What is scary is that the damage is done BEFORE a complaint is filed, evidence and defence heard and a decision made.

The rule of law is based on the presumption of innocence. Slowly but surely this is being eroded, the presumption of innocence and due process thrown out and replaced with a modern version of lynch mobs and witch drownings on social media.

These issues are always complex although if there was a rape, then justice must be meted out without villifying the victim for reporting it.

Au contraire, it is just as important that the accused is not vilified either. There is supposed to be due process.

I find the absence of a complaint in a timely manner to be a worrisome trend.

[wiggy]

World wide there appears a whole lot of accusations are leveled in the media, certainly not through the legal process that result in untold damage to the accused without even a modicum of process involved

Have no opinion on the MSP incident but certainly in the U.K. the authorities have not starred recently, e.g:

Redditch forklift truck driver took own life after fake rape claim | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5513559/Redditch-forklift-truck-driver-took-life-fake-rape-claim.html)

.. And I have absolutely no idea what the solution is.

[4468]

According to the court document linked above, the captain said 'We're f****d, we're f****d.'
What a very strange way to drug rape a co-worker???? Knowing that, however the alleged victim reacts, there will have to be an investigation, and serious consequences.

Meanwhile, others here suggest rape is too ‘tricky’. Too unique to obey the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Too difficult to satisfy the standard of proof required. So the highly inconvenient rule of law should be sidestepped, to drag the names of alleged assailants through the mud. It doesn’t matter if a ‘few’ innocent men’s lives are ruined. Only those who can somehow ‘prove’ they are pure as the driven snow, should be excused the opprobrium of being born male!

Talk about shifting the burden of proof!

What a f@cked up world!

[troppo]

Meanwhile...Flight attendant orgy: Airline hits back over rumours (http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/airline-hits-back-over-hostie-orgy-rumour/news-story/419b9f9c4f97123f13cd390bdd282a82)
:rolleyes:

[Skipname]

I find this case a bit strange.

First of all why didn't the company advise her to contact the police once she reported the alleged rape to them. Even if after the company finishes their investigation and determines that the guy did in fact rape her, what's the most they can do, fire him? Is that enough punishment for a rapist? I think not! If someone ever comes to me with such reports my fist instinct would be to get the police involved. What else can I do?

Second of all why is she suing the company and not the alleged rapist? Are companies responsible for the behaviour of their employees outside duty hours? Or is it because the company has deeper pockets than the alleged rapist?

[maggot]

Why did they stand her down?
And do nothing?
Did they?

[PaxBritannica]

What a very strange way to drug rape a co-worker???? Knowing that, however the alleged victim reacts, there will have to be an investigation, and serious consequences.

Meanwhile, others here suggest rape is too ‘tricky’. Too unique to obey the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Too difficult to satisfy the standard of proof required. So the highly inconvenient rule of law should be sidestepped, to drag the names of alleged assailants through the mud. It doesn’t matter if a ‘few’ innocent men’s lives are ruined. Only those who can somehow ‘prove’ they are pure as the driven snow, should be excused the opprobrium of being born male!

Talk about shifting the burden of proof!

What a f@cked up world!

You mean. having your less-than-white past dragged out into public, the way women have been routinely treated in rape trials since rape trials began?

[4468]

Ah, now I see your point.

You are suggesting that what went on in the past was deeply wrong. In any event, the law now prevents alleged victims, (who uniquely have the right to retain their anonymity) from having to discuss anything at all not directly related to the alleged offence? Even if it may assist the defence.

But such obnoxious bias should now be considered as perfectly acceptable, as long as it’s now only men having to prove their innocence? So it’s not actually the principle per se? It just depends how it suits your agenda?? (Or more accurately, how it suits your gender!)

That’s a fair summation, isn’t it?

Of course, this is why so many rape trials have recently collapsed in the UK, and many more are under review as potentially being unsafe. This is because relevant information was not disclosed to the defence by the prosecution/police. It was just inconvenient, as we want to lock up as many of these b@st@rd men as possible. We don’t need to bother ourselves with the inconvenience of due process. No woman would lie, eh!

However this non disclosure has revealed that some women do indeed lie (with impunity!) about rape. In much the same way that some men are rapists.

Personally. I want to see as many rapists as possible taken off the streets. Yet I don’t wish to see a single innocent person, suffering life changing consequences for a crime they did not commit. Much less for a supposed ‘crime’ for which they were never ever charged!

But as long as the lady involved here can enjoy a life changing bung, without the need to bother the courts. As long as that ‘b@st@rd’ man gets his commuppance’. (Because he must be guilty! Right?)

Then all is well in the world? Eh?

What a screwed up world!

[Capewell]

I can't believe that it is not company policy to relay any accusation of serious sexual assault to the police asap. No matter how much time has elapsed since the incident there is always an opportunity to gather evidence whether that is forensic samples or interviewing witnesses. Allegations of rape are very difficult to investigate and even more difficult to prove. It is a job for investigative professionals ie cops NOT hr professionals. The max sentence for a conviction like that is life in prison.

[PaxBritannica]

@4468 I'm sorry this has made you so agitated. I'm merely listing facts.

If we get down to numbers:

Roughly 2% of rape accusations in the UK are 'false'. Of those, less than half make it to be formal accusations, and 1% result in convictions which are later overturned. That's 1% of 2%, ie 1 person per 10,000 accusations.

It's estimated half a million adults are sexually assaulted every year in the UK (99K are full rapes). Only 15% are reported to the police, ie 75,000. Of those, less than 6% result in convictions, ie 4,500 convictions per 500,000 actual assaults. The stats in the previous paragraph suggest roughly half a person per year may be wrongly convicted - one man every two years.

To sum up - each year:

425,000 assaults take place but are not reported.
420,500 perps go unpunished.
0.5 people are convicted unjustly.

Do you really feel the system is biased against the 0.5?

The stats can be argued against - some wrongful convictions may never be discovered, so the 0.5 is presumably lower than the actual number of falsely imprisoned men. How many of the 4,500 do you think are victims of lies? How high a false-accusation rate is acceptable to you? Is any false-accusation rate acceptable to you?

Note: the vast majority of men who sexually assault other humans have a 90% chance of getting away with it, even in a country like the UK.

I think there is a wave of male panic that the notion of 'consent' is being brought into sharp focus, and that older men in particular will have to learn new behaviours. All change is painful.

[oldchina]

I wonder who hid FO's underwear in her purse

[Chris2303]

I wonder who hid FO's underwear in her purse

"Hid"?

Placed might be better....

[Council Van]

Conviction rates for rape are far lower than other crimes, with only 5.7% of reported rape cases ending in a conviction for the perpetrator.

You can always use numbers to prove any point you want.

Using this % above you could say that 94.3% of rape allegations were false yet the figures come from rape crisis UK who were trying to use the number to emphasise that in their opinion to many rapists were getting off scot free.

I suspect in this case only one person knows what really happened, two at the most.

[flyboyike]

Is any false-accusation rate acceptable to you?



No. And not just on rape, on anything. One innocent life ruined is too many.

[4468]

PaxBritannica
4468 I'm sorry this has made you so agitated. I'm merely listing facts.
Ha ha!

Not agitated at all. Too busy sunbathing!:)

Truth is, you have no interest whatsoever in ‘facts’! Even your list of made up statistics is as heavily based in agenda as ‘fact’, and doesn’t even acknowledge recent trial collapses! Every single ‘not guilty’ verdict you mention, is a case in which the evidence has failed to satisfy the standard of proof (beyond reasonable doubt) that a jury of every day men AND women are required to satisfy, before finding guilt. Those found not guilty, are precisely that. NOT GUILTY. They are not simply rapists who dodged their guilt. Though I accept some may be!!

So because you find you don’t much like the fundamentals of the law, and the changes that have been introduced STILL can’t persuade a jury of every day men AND women to convict. Cases such as the one under consideration become the default MO!

Where the inconvenience of establishing the facts is sidestepped. In it’s stead, a scurrilous means of besmirching alleged assailants is undertaken. No proof required, or desired! Go #MeToo/#Time’sUp! Launch the media campaign! Name and shame!

So here we are very likely to see a multi million dollar bung to the complainant. She will forever carry the association with her unproven allegation. But hey perhaps immediate retirement to the Caribbean (or elsewhere) might ease her trauma?

But what of the gentleman involved. Who I imagine is likely never to be charged. Never given the opportunity of clearing his name? Two outcomes are possible. Either an innocent man will have his life ruined by a false (or mistaken?) allegation. Or a rapist with a tendency to drug women will continue to walk the streets. I would suggest both of those outcomes are undesirable. But it’s precisely the world your argument, and that of Hollywood activists are taking us.

So please don’t pretend you have any interest whatsoever in facts. (Or even in protecting women!) You and others like you, do not. Admit you find ‘facts’ can be inconvenient. Which is why you and others are delighted to sidestep the examination of factual evidence lest the ‘facts’ fail to deliver the ‘right’ result!

As a gentleman, I shall of course allow you the final word. It’s been such a shame to interrupt your grandstanding.

[Cows getting bigger]

This isn't just about rape (which is a sickening crime), it's more to do with the ongoing inequality in our profession. I fly with a girl who previously got a job with an AOC set-up through personal recommendation from a company pilot. Subsequently there was a 'price' which she refused to pay, leading to some rather despicable behaviour from people within the company. She then spent some time extricating herself from the organisation who were insistent on a more standard 'arrangement' of £##K for her TR training. With a bit of BALPA assistance, the fee was dropped and they let her go, chivalrously. :ugh:

My point? We can shove our heads in the sand, convincing ourselves that we have an absolutely level playing field and that all pilot's have the highest integrity. The truth is something significantly different. For sure, people of both genders (or should I now say 'all sexualities'?) can and do cause mischief but, in my mere 30 years of aviating experience, I fancy that the girls tend to be wronged far more often than the boys. :rolleyes:

[A Squared]

Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)

This is true. The standard in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil suit it is: "The preponderance of evidence." I'm sure there are entire classes taught in law schools on the nuance of the meaning of those words but you don't have to be a lawyer to see that the latter is a much lower standard.

[bensworld]

Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.

[SWBKCB]

I can't believe that it is not company policy to relay any accusation of serious sexual assault to the police asap. No matter how much time has elapsed since the incident there is always an opportunity to gather evidence whether that is forensic samples or interviewing witnesses. Allegations of rape are very difficult to investigate and even more difficult to prove. It is a job for investigative professionals ie cops NOT hr professionals. The max sentence for a conviction like that is life in prison.

This is the most surprising point which has barely been mentioned. Employee 1 reports Employee 2 to their employer for a serious criminal act and the employer doesn't contact the police? WTF?

[A Squared]

This is the most surprising point which has barely been mentioned. Employee 1 reports Employee 2 to their employer for a serious criminal act and the employer doesn't contact the police? WTF?

True, this seems so improbable I'm not sure what to make of it.

[SWBKCB]

I don't know, Ollie, I'm probably a little old-fashioned (despite being relatively young), but I believe there are things a Captain (as opposed to just an employee with four stripes sitting in the left seat) just shouldn't do. Part of my job is to keep my crew safe and legal (including, to the extent possible, on overnights). If other crewmembers want to get liquored up, that's their business, but if "things got out of control" with MY PARTICIPATION, to me that's a reflection on my leadership abilities (or lack thereof). I realize I'm probably in the minority on this, but it is what it is.

Those working for an UK employer should be aware of this case.

The Employment Appeals Tribunal(EAT) concurred with the tribunal findings, that these acts were committed in the course of his employment, and the incidents, although 'social events' away from the police station, were extensions of the workplace. They came within the definition of course of employment as determined by the Court of Appeal in Jones v Tower Boot Co. Ltd [1997] IRLR 168 CA.

The EAT stated that it would have been different had the discriminatory acts occurred during a chance meeting. Hence work-related social functions may be interpreted as an extension of employment.


https://www.thompsonstradeunion.law/news/lelr/weekly-issue-32-march-1999/on-duty-or-off-duty

[galaxy flyer]

Longtime reader of this board, first time poster. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the messages which acknowledged that sexual violence is a crime unlike any other. I was nonetheless dismayed, though not surprised at those which displayed the misogynist attitude I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.

What’s your point? Do you want to remove “innocent until proven guilty” or create a separate class of victims who are excused from normal criminal law?


GF

[Council Van]

I would expect from such an old boys club as commercial pilots. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. I generally find this forum to be an intelligent discussion but every so often it reads very low.

Are you a UK council employee by any chance? Your nasty little rant so reminds me of an equal opportunities day I had to attend some years ago in my previous career in which I spent 7 hours being told that all the problems in the UK were caused by the males of the indigenous population.

Old boys club, perhaps 50 or sixty years ago.

[A Squared]

What’s your point? Do you want to remove “innocent until proven guilty” or create a separate class of victims who are excused from normal criminal law?


GF

That would seem to be his implication. Particularly the bit about "Your conflation of the law with justice smacks of the most vile excesses of societies that have mostly fallen by the wayside. This seems pretty clear to be a demand for "Justice" beyond the law. Yes the law is an imperfect form of justice. If I were an omnipotent creator, I would create a world where justice is administered by an omniscient, absolutely impartial being who knows all the facts (That last is for those who don't fully grasp the meaning of "omniscient") in a matter. the reality is, we don't live in that world. We live in a world where all the facts are not known nor capable of being known, in a world where there are evil people who rape other people, and there are also evil people who accuse other people of raping them, either to cause great harm to the accused or for personal gain, or both. So the systems of justice has to be constructed to balance the interests of all victims in both extremes, I am not for one moment trying to claim that the accuser in this case is one of the latter. Just making the point to those who seem to be advocating that all accusations of rape should be accepted as true, because it's hard to prove rape and it's a really ugly crime. Yes, it is an ugly, despicable crime. Yes it can be difficult to prove. That does not rationally lead to the conclusion that everyone who alleges rape is being truthful.

[PaxBritannica]

Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.

It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.

[iceman50]

Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't. PAXB Presumably as long as that one man was not you.

[A Squared]

Rape accusations are rarely accepted as 'true'; until the recent past, the man's denial was usually accepted as true.

It would be interesting to estimate the ratio of 'malicious accusers' to 'evil rapists'. I suspect men see it as being 99/1, and women see it as 1/99. I suggest the stats support the female view. Personally, I think one wrongly accused man vs one million sexual assaults is an acceptable ratio. Presumably others don't.

Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.

[PaxBritannica]

Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.

When have I taken the position that rape accusations should be presumed true? I don't think we should start from the position that rape accusations are wrong and malicious.

Why are my stats 'questionable'? Please tell where you think I'm wrong.

[Sailvi767]

Neither historical injustices nor (questionable) statistics justify your position that rape accusations should be presumed to be true.

We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.

[A Squared]

I don't think we should start from the position that rape accusations are wrong and malicious.


No, but the possibility shouldn't be dismissed, either. A justice system whcih does not consider that the accuser in *any* crime may lying would not be a justice system in any meaningful sense.

[aterpster]

No, but the possibility shouldn't be dismissed, either. A justice system whcih does not consider that the accuser in *any* crime may lying would not be a justice system in any meaningful sense.

Thus, a trial by your peers to a proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is NOT going away, instant case notwithstanding.

What is happening, not for the good of the country, is kangaroo trial by the media.

[vapilot2004]

This is unfortunate all the way around. Nobody walks away from this one without some injury, some stain upon their reputations. The following, while not entirely judicially prudent, nor perfect, is the most likely result, barring any new developments or evidence of substance:

With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.

[flyboyike]

With names and events out in the open now, the airline is forced to act responsibly. Most likely Pena will receive an out of court injury settlement, the captain will either be fired or forced to resign, possibly with his retirement intact, and the airline will be vilified for using poor judgment, having more apparent interest in their own image, than the protection of their employees.

In other words, the airline will be forced to pay both of them to go away...hmmm...I wonder if...nah, I'm not THAT much of a conspiracy theorist.

[Blind Squirrel]

Statistics help us very little when it comes to sexual violence. These are what sociologists call "dark numbers." We will never know the true number of rapes and sexual assaults because we rely on victims to report them. Some will never do so; others do not even realise that what happened to them was a crime. Similarly, there is no way of determining the proportion of true and false allegations, the more so inasmuch as no consensus exists over what constitutes a "false" allegation (is it one, for example, where the complainant maliciously fabricates a story out of whole cloth, or one where the complainant genuinely but incorrectly believes a crime took place?). Given these limitations, we should treat any statistical data as indicative rather than determinative.

All that noted, there are things we can say about sexual violence with a high degree of confidence. The first is that a great deal of it occurs, against both sexes. The second is that women and girls are a majority of victims, and men and boys a majority of perpetrators, though strong minorities exist in both categories (in Britain around one in eight reported rapes occurs to adult men; in the U.S. around one in five). The third is that the majority of cases—how large a majority it's impossible to say—goes unreported. The fourth is that the attrition rate in cases brought to the attention of law enforcement is extremely high, so that only a trivial proportion of reported rapes results in custodial sentences. Lastly, rape is a crime suffered by the young, but often perpetrated by older people. For both sexes, the moment of highest risk occurs at the age of sixteen. One's chances of suffering sexual violence begins to fall sharply after one's twentieth, and precipitously after one's thirtieth, birthday, though it never diminishes to zero. All of what I've just said is true of every country in the world in which any kind of worthwhile data exist.

In this specific case, nothing about the complainant's story seems incredible to me. I have heard many similar ones, from people who are neither vindictive, ideologically driven nor angling for a payout. (Often they don't report what happened to them because they don't want the perpetrator to go to jail. They just want him or her to acknowledge the wrongdoing, and not to do it again.) It's often forgotten that successful rapists, by dint of practice, become frighteningly good at what they do. And many of them—Jimmy Savile, Kevin Spacey, Larry Nassar and others—can be almost unbelievably blatant in the commission of their acts. I personally know one woman, a senior professional, who was sexually assaulted at a formal dinner at which I, and a couple of hundred other people, were present. The perp relied on the victim's incredulity, and her reluctance to create a public scene, to get away with it. It later transpired that he had done this to many, many other people.

I'm not sure that I'm following the objections of some of the posters upthread to the action that FO Pina has taken. Nobody is suggesting that merely because she has levelled an accusation, what she says ought to be taken as unquestioned truth. She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.

Like Cows above, my belief is that in the world of commercial aviation, many more such cases exist than ever see the light of day. The chance to occupy the left-hand seat in the cockpit is keenly contested; deciding who fills it is almost entirely in the hands of men; and opportunities to shunt an aspirant off the path—or to ensure that her or his professional career will go thus far but no further—are not few. Boat-rocking of any kind is not encouraged in aviation circles. My guess is that any successful woman pilot will have had to grit her teeth quite a few times along the way, and that some of them will have had to put up with a great deal more than that.

[Airbubba]

I've sure guessed wrong these cases before.

In a 2002 lawsuit where a female SkyWest FO claimed that a male pilot exposed himself on, uh, short final I predicted:

Ms. Manjarrez will probably get an out of court settlement from her employer whether the allegations are true or not.

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/856-pilot-sues-delta-connection-carrier.html

Turns out SkyWest took the case to court and won. Oddly enough, the claim of a male copilot waving at the female captain without using his hands seems to be urban legend in several variations at multiple carriers.

Some versions have the plane diverting only to have the accused save himself at the upcoming hearing by wisely pulling the CVR circuit breaker to preserve evidence of his innocence.

I've even heard a version of this tale that supposedly takes place in the sim. And, I'm pretty sure I've heard versions of this narrative well before 2002.

I'm not sure the CVR recording can be used in a disciplinary hearing either way but I may be wrong, that's why we have lawyers.

We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.

This case has a similar possible motive of a missed report on probation with alcohol involved. That's the devil's advocate answer to the claim that she would have no reason to lie and risk her career.

[ElZilcho]

Very touchy subject, and already it seems, emotions are running high.

I definitely sympathize with Victims and understand their reasons for not going straight to police, or the circumstances which might prevent them from doing so. Unfortunately the longer they wait, the more it becomes a case of He said/She said as most evidence is long gone. That's not "Victim blaming" it's the unfortunate reality of facts. The Drugs have long since left the victims system, DNA has washed away and witnesses memories fade.

If this case causes more women to come forward, then it's highly likely the Captain is guilty. While there's a first time for everything, I doubt he would have chosen a colleague on a layover as his first date rape victim. As such, he's probably done it before... or not at all. But that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately, I fear movements such as a #Metoo are actually doing more harm than good. While there's no doubt in my mind that Harvey Weinstein is a pig of a man who abused his position, I also have no doubts that some actresses were willing to do anything to advance their careers, enabling his behaviour. Remember folks, being a misogynistic arsehole isn't illegal. There's been a lot of allegations, but (to my knowledge) no charges have been laid.

Honestly, I don't have any answers with how we deal with Rape allegations any differently. Some men are Rapists and I have zero sympathy for their lives being destroyed, but some women are also liars, and their victims have their lives destroyed before it even goes to court. I suppose, both parties should have total name supression while the investigation and trial is completed.

[Herod]

Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.

[Cows getting bigger]

I'll dive-on in again. This particular event is very much 'water under the bridge' in that there will/will not be enough evidence to prove/disprove.

The more important thing society needs to resolve is the culture where some still think that using sexual assault, or indeed alleging sexual assault, is in any way acceptable.

#metoo is empowering people so that they no longer whisper in the corner how Captain F'Knuckle has always liked a quick fumble in the galley at FL390; they are being given the confidence to shout out immediately, not 10 years downstream. By doing so you start to change the culture, in a small way, such that F'Nuckle may just think twice before embarking on their sworded quest.

[aterpster]

Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.
Mostly more evidence about the F/O's motivation to bring about her lawsuit.

[Airbanda]

Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.

Not for bringing the action itself, court process will be privileged though he can perhaps counterclaim. OTOH if she's appearing on TV etc he might have an opening but I think defamation is a much harder thing to prove in US than UK; constitution and all that.

[Airbubba]

Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.

Here's a recent case of a bogus rape claim leading to a successful jury verdict for defamation:

Retired colonel wins $8.4M lawsuit against woman who blogged that he raped her

By TOM JACKMAN | The Washington Post | Published: August 11, 2017

Col. David "Wil" Riggins, after a highly-decorated Army career which included multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, was on the verge of promotion to brigadier general in July 2013 when he got a phone call at the Pentagon from the Army Criminal Investigation Command to come in for a meeting. Once there, he learned that a blogger in Washington state had just accused him of raping her, when both were cadets at West Point in 1986. An investigation was underway.

Riggins waived his right to an attorney and immediately gave a statement denying any sexual assault of the woman, Susan Shannon of Everett, Washington. Shannon also cooperated with the CID investigation, which could not "prove or disprove Ms. Shannon's allegation she was raped," the CID report concluded. But in the spring of 2014, with the armed forces facing heavy criticism for their handling of sexual assault cases, Secretary of the Army John McHugh recommended removing Riggins from the list for promotion to general. Riggins promptly retired.

Then, Riggins sued Shannon for defamation, claiming that every aspect of her rape claim on the West Point campus was "provably false," and that she wrote two blog posts and a Facebook post "to intentionally derail [his] promotion" to brigadier general. During a six-day trial that ended Aug. 1, a jury in Fairfax County, Virginia, heard from both Riggins and Shannon at length. And after 2 1/2 hours of deliberation, they sided emphatically with Riggins, awarding him $8.4 million in damages, an extraordinary amount for a defamation case between two private citizens. The jury ordered Shannon to pay $3.4 million in compensatory damages for injury to his reputation and lost wages, and $5 million in punitive damages, "to make sure nothing like this will ever happen again," according to one of the jurors.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/retired-colonel-wins-8-4m-lawsuit-against-woman-who-blogged-that-he-raped-her-1.482514

[4468]

Blind Squirrel
She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.
Point of order, if I may?

Unless I have misread things. She is seeking no determination of whether or not she was raped? Certainly the alleged assailant is said, not to be named as a defendant.

I believe she is suing the company for their actions after her allegation was made?

Whilst simoultaneously, in the ensuing media circus, preventing her alleged assailant from receiving a fair trial. If she ever bothered to press charges.

She wants him fired, as she believes he “remains a threat to other employees”. Conveniently overlooking the fact that because she has not pressed charges, he will remain free, and might then be a threat to every woman on the planet!

[Airbubba]

I believe she is suing the company for their actions after her allegation was made?

Here is a direct quote from the lawsuit saying that she is suing for the actions of the captain and that the company is liable. She does say that the company's actions after the incident could be considered retaliatory.

CAUSES OF ACTION: WASHINGTON LAWS AGAINST DISCRIMINATION
(RCW 49.60), SEXUAL ASSAULT & NEGLIGENCE

14. Mr. Engelien’s actions, as the supervising officer on the flight, constitute
violations of Washington Laws Against Discrimination, sexual assault, and negligence.

Given Mr. Engelien’s position of authority on the flight and within the company, Alaska Airlines is liable for the violations stated herein. Mr. Engelien’s grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #metoo movement. Further, the actions on the part of Alaska Airlines after the incident could be construed as unlawfully retaliatory.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4411327-Pina-v-Alaska-Airlines.html

[4468]

Yes, I’ve read that. It’s vicarious liability.

But why isn’t the alleged assailant a co-defendant? Is his guilt being tested in any meaningful way? Is he entitled to representation, if he is not named as a defendant?

[oldchina]

But why isn’t the alleged assailant a co-defendant?

Pina has hired well known lawyers (search "Lincoln Beauregard") who presumably advised that was not the best route to success.

[Deltasierra010]

This lady is looking for a big settlement out of court from the airline no doubt about that, encouraged of course by lawyers that are going to get a big slice of that. With men and women in the same workplace these allegations are going to happen and the only answer is a no fraternization rule, if you are caught you both get suspended. There will of course be couples who consent and some companies have rules, men are not allowed in women's bedrooms, women entering men's rooms are responsible for what happens and no complaint will be accepted, other than an immediate criminal investigation.
This woman has many years experience working alongside men in the military, she knows how to handle them, let's have none of the poor emotional woman, there has to be evidence to back up what is alleged, if there is none forget it.
One aspect is puzzling, why, when they had an early flight next day did they both go out drinking, as neither was breathalysed I guess there are ways of talking your way out of that.

[galaxy flyer]

She knows how to handle men, perhaps. But it’s a dead certainty she doesn’t know how to handle a roofie.

GF

[Herod]

Here's an interesting tale. I may be the only person here who has (perhaps) been the victim of a date-rape drug.

Scenario. Heterosexual male. An unscheduled night-stop, after a long day, and checked into a hotel used by many of the crews. I went to the bar and had two pints of beer over the space of maybe two hours. One of the other pilots was well known for batting for the other side, quite aggressively. I was invited several times to go to his room, and he would wash my shirt for me (not needed, I always carried a small night-stop kit). I awoke next morning with the worst splitting headache I have ever had. Alone in my room, I hasten to add. I put it down to a long day, too much coffee and too many hours in the foul air of a crewroom. One of the other pilots at breakfast saw the state I was in, and must have called ops, because I was taken off the flight I should have been operating. Perhaps he thought I was badly hungover. I thought nothing of it until several weeks later, when the other pilot's name came up in conversation. I don't know to this day (and I'm sure I made it back to my own room OK), but I do know that two pints of beer wouldn't have had that effect. Scary stuff.

[A Squared]

Help me understand the point you are making about TWA 841.

I think that in expecting him to suddenly become coherent, you are being unrealistically optimistic. Have you visited his website?

[Deltasierra010]

She knows how to handle men, perhaps. But it’s a dead certainty she doesn’t know how to handle a roofie.

GF
Any drug is just an allegation, it could have been food poisoning or a whole host of other things that caused illness.
Clearly none of us know what really happened but an airline captain that drugs his copilot a few hours before they are due to fly does not sound likely to me, add to that the fact that any complaint was not made for some time makes me very sceptical.
Police are over sympathetic to any complaint involving women even to the extent of failing to reveal evidence to the defense, there are a string of cases being investigated in the UK at present, so men cannot even rely on the police to investigate impartially.
Of course the guilty ones should be jailed, do it on the evidence or where repeated allegations are proved, not on the story of a woman who wants a big payday.

[galaxy flyer]

I didn’t mention any drug use as fact, just stated it’s unlikely that she, or anyone, could somehow “handle” being drugged.

Here’s the Seattle Times article.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/co-pilot-sues-alaska-airlines-over-alleged-drugging-rape-by-flight-captain-during-layover/

GF

[Herod]

I've led a sheltered life. Can someone explain why it's called a "roofie"?

[A Squared]

I've led a sheltered life. Can someone explain why it's called a "roofie"?

It's a corruption of Rohypnol, which is one of the trade names the drug is marketed under.

[4468]

Rohypnol is a tranquilliser, colloquially known as ‘roofie’. (There are other similar alternatives!)

It is said to be 10x more powerful than Valium. Anyone who has had any contact with Valium for legitimate medical reasons, will know you appear conscious, and care/pain free. But are utterly compliant!

You can both walk and talk. Though I’m told you appear rather ‘out of it’.

There are big blanks in your memory, and significant subsequent confusion: “How could I have been so stupid as to get so drunk.” Etc. The moment of realisation also usually exceeds the period of detection! Pina’s testimony is totally authentic. Make of that what you will! I still say, these things should be tested in court.

Rohypnol etc, renders any potential victim, completely and utterly defenceless!

[misd-agin]

One on one, I would agree. But, back in the mid-1960s when all the F/As were female and all the pilots were male, we had some grand parties on long layovers. Nothing bad happened. There were the occasional romantic encounters, but by mutual consent.

Assault, and rape, has occurred in every generation. Bad things happened. That it didn’t happen at the parties you were at doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

[aterpster]

Assault, and rape, has occurred in every generation. Bad things happened. That it didn’t happen at the parties you were at doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

As I said, these parties were 4 or 5 F/As and 3 pilots. Not one-on-one at the start.

Yes, I've read about rape going back to Rome and before.

[Gauges and Dials]

... and the only answer is a no fraternization rule.

That is by no means the only answer. Another answer, for example, would be for everyone to internalize the basic principle of not raping your fellow crewmember.

[pilot9249]

I'll dive-on in again. This particular event is very much 'water under the bridge' in that there will/will not be enough evidence to prove/disprove.

The more important thing society needs to resolve is the culture where some still think that using sexual assault, or indeed alleging sexual assault, is in any way acceptable.

#metoo is empowering people so that they no longer whisper in the corner how Captain F'Knuckle has always liked a quick fumble in the galley at FL390; they are being given the confidence to shout out immediately, not 10 years downstream. By doing so you start to change the culture, in a small way, such that F'Nuckle may just think twice before embarking on their sworded quest.

We'll never know if there's enough evidence.

Complainant chooses not to pursue a criminal case, avoiding the only appropriate venue.

#metoo is encouraging people to avoid using the proper venue, rather than highlighting any problems that should be fixed with it and encouraging others to insist it must work.

#courtsfailedme would be much more useful, but far less topical and marketable.

We're left proposing justice by popularity.

Most of us left that behind in the school playground.

Ugh.

[ElZilcho]

That is by no means the only answer. Another answer, for example, would be for everyone to internalize the basic principle of not raping your fellow crewmember.

If only it were that simple, and every man accused of Rape was actually a "Rapist".

Many lives have been ruined, not just in Aviation, due to drunken one night stands and the regret that follows. In the modern world, a Women is unable to give "Consent" if intoxicated but an Erection seems to be all is required on the Man's behalf. As such, if both parties are intoxicated, the Rapist and the Victim are decided along gender lines.

This is not to say that many men haven't coerced women into sex while intoxicated, but that the definition of Rape has become blurred in recent times. A women who drives drunk is responsible for her actions, but a women who has sex while intoxicated was unable to give consent and was thus raped? That's the narrative these days.

I might sound like a misogynistic bastard to some, but I witnessed the devastation first hand many years ago. While on a layover, a Flight Attendant was very clearly on the prowl and had her eyes on a colleague of mine, she'd enquired with us as to his availability during the flight, wasn't shy about her intentions in the Galley, and we all saw her drag him off during the night.

When word back to her husband, the accusations came out. No amount of witness statements from us or her colleagues, even though they prevented prosecution, could undo the damage done by accusation.

I don't pretend that Women aren't overly represented when it comes to sexual assaults nor how difficult it can be for them to come forward, there are plenty of pigs in this world who should be castrated. But I also don't pretend that People don't lie about Crimes, not just Rape, for a variety of nefarious reasons.

The percentage of False vs Legitimate accusations is irrelevant. The fact that People do lie forces to authorities to do a thorough investigation, which is extremely difficult in cases of "Date rape" without any toxicology evidence.

It's a sad world we live in. :yuk:
Slam-Click seeya tomorrow.

[porterpat]

Cynical Sid says it all

[ehwatezedoing]

#metoo is encouraging people to avoid using the proper venue, rather than highlighting any problems that should be fixed with it and encouraging others to insist it must work.
No.

This #meetoo movement is to encourage women to speak up about sexual assault/harassment.
Victims that would have done nothing about it otherwise.
Really, if all of them could simply write #meetoo as status, we would understand the magnitude of the problem.

Once knowing that, you start to fixe it and that’s what is more or less happening.

[4468]

#MeToo is about bypassing the inconvenience of proving your allegation. No more, no less.

It either:

Allows evil rapists to continue at large, when they should be locked away.

Or

It ruins the lives of innocent men.

Either way. Both victims, and women in general, would be far better served reporting their allegations to the police.

[Mac the Knife]

"…an airline captain that drugs his copilot a few hours before they are due to fly …"

Yes, I thought that that was extremely bizarre. And very dangerous, unless he planned to dob her, or get someone else to dob her pre-flight.

I've been a naughty boy in my time, but that seems an awful lot of risk-taking just for a shag (and with a semi-conscious woman at that).

A man who would do that sort of thing would be bound to have built up a reputation as an ass-grabber to be avoided, I would have thought.

Did he have such a reputation? Were there any prior "incidents"?

Just asking.

Mac

:ouch:

[costalpilot]

Surely someone with her age and experience would know to report such a serious occurance to the police?
e
surely...unless she was in shock and intimidated by the undoubtedly severe consequences ...and unable to process all this in a few days because shes human and her entire professional life hangs in the balance.

gimmie a break.

[costalpilot]

................. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. ......................


your politics is showing.

[costalpilot]

back in the day my airline, (which was absorbed by Delta) reacted to any sort of sexism related complaint with alacrity and alarm. It was rare, but it happened, and the few pilots who found themselves so charged were in big trouble from the get go.

Alaska has taken a different approach. Considering the social climate today, this is surprising, and If I had to guess, untenable.

I cannot recall one company standing firm against a "sexism" challenge of any kind in the past several years. Maybe I'm wrong, but I predict a quick turnabout by Alaska. I wouldn't want to be this guy.

Or girl. No matter the outcome. I cant imagine why either him or her would rationally choose to endanger their career in this way.

Both are talented professionals with a lot to lose.

additionally, the hotel videos as portrayed in the media are certainly not evidence of a rape, but they are troubling for him if the description is accurate, as are the accounts of the events surrounding their removal from the flight.

[A Squared]

Or girl. No matter the outcome. I cant imagine why either him or her would rationally choose to endanger their career in this way.

You could say essentially the same thing about virtually anyone accused of a crime. "I can't imagine why XXX would rationally choose to endanger thier (Career,/freedom from incarceration/reputation/personal wealth/etc, etc, etc) in this way. Yet, people do things every day whcih cause them to lose their personal freedom, careers, savings accounts, families, community standing. That line of reasoning really sheds no meaningful light on whether or not someone committed some act whcih might bring grave consequences.


additionally, the hotel videos as portrayed in the media are certainly not evidence of a rape, but they are troubling for him if the description is accurate, as are the accounts of the events surrounding their removal from the flight.

Have you seen the hotel videos? I haven't. all I have seen is a description of what the FO has claimed someone else told her was in the video.

[oldchina]

This lawsuit is about workplace rape.
Airlines have good lawyers and they'll put up a fight.
Is a crew hotel a workplace? That's for the court to decide.
In other words, were they on the job?

[galaxy flyer]

I think you’ll find, if you are traveling on company business, occupying a company-arranged and paid lodging, it’s a work place occurrence.

Airlines will only fight, if its in their interest to do so. Defending someone who the evidence shows may have raped or, even had questionable sex with, isn’t in their interest.

GF

[costalpilot]

disregard.

[costalpilot]

You could say essentially the same thing about virtually anyone accused of a crime. "I can't imagine why XXX would rationally choose to endanger thier (Career,/freedom from incarceration/reputation/personal wealth/etc, etc, etc) in this way. Yet, people do things every day whcih cause them to lose their personal freedom, careers, savings accounts, families, community standing. That line of reasoning really sheds no meaningful light on whether or not someone committed some act whcih might bring grave consequences.




Have you seen the hotel videos? I haven't. all I have seen is a description of what the FO has claimed someone else told her was in the video.


you might note the qualifiers in my reference to the videos. I didn't say anything about their accuracy.

yes, Im aware people do crazy things. that WAS the point. one of these two has done just that.

[costalpilot]

This lawsuit is about workplace rape.
Airlines have good lawyers and they'll put up a fight.
Is a crew hotel a workplace? That's for the court to decide.
In other words, were they on the job?


I predict they fold like a plastic lawn chair

Meet the Brash and Brilliant Lawyer Who Won?t Leave Ed Murray Alone | Seattle Weekly (http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/meet-the-brash-and-brilliant-lawyer-who-wont-leave-ed-murray-alone/)

[SLF3]

There have been a string of failed prosecutions for rape in the UK that have collapsed because the police failed to disclose evidence to the defence that proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the woman had consented. Mainly posts after the event on social media.

Under UK law the accused is identified but the alleged victim has anonymity: even after the case has collapsed. In some cases it took two years for the case to be dismissed. Not hard to imagine what the accused went through in the meantime.

Yes, rape is an appalling crime, and should be prosecuted. But some women lie. The fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty should still apply. At the moment, at least in the UK, there seems to be a presumption that if rape is alleged a crime was commited: to the extent the police will bend the rules of evidence to secure a prosecution.

This attitude extends (at least in my industry) to the response to claims of sexual harassment in the workplace. You have to prove you didn’t do it, the presumption is you did.

So maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. But if he didn’t, does he deserve the treatment he is getting?

The pendulum has swung to far in favour of the woman.

[A Squared]

you might note the qualifiers in my reference to the videos. I didn't say anything about their accuracy.

Yeah, I was more making the point generally. There can be a tendency to accept things at face value. Honestly, I briefly fell into this trap myself as the story emerged. The first article I read was pretty bare bones, just the broad details, and my though were more or less "Hmmm, He/said she said". The next article I read had all or most of the details we now see before and because of the way it was written, and perhaps because I wasn't reading carefully enough, it seemed like they had a lot of pretty damning evidence in terms of witness statements and surveillance video, and I shifted to "Hmm sounds like he may have done more or less what was alleged" Then when this popped up here, I re-read the article a little more carefully, and read some others and read the court filing, and came to the realization that every bit of evidence whcih is suggestive of a sexual assault has come from either her court filing, or from her interviews with the media. There's a world of difference between having hotel security video, and the description of what one person (who has a vested interest in the outcome and potentially an ulterior motive) claims they were told by someone else about the security video.

[A Squared]

I predict they fold like a plastic lawn chair

Meet the Brash and Brilliant Lawyer Who Won?t Leave Ed Murray Alone | Seattle Weekly (http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/meet-the-brash-and-brilliant-lawyer-who-wont-leave-ed-murray-alone/)

Hmm, interesting. Reading some of the articles linked in that one, it seems that this guy has a habit of entering documents into the court record for no other purpose than to get them into the media.

[Airbubba]

Hmm, interesting. Reading some of the articles linked in that one, it seems that this guy has a habit of entering documents into the court record for no other purpose than to get them into the media.

Yep, as I observed here earlier:

The suit appears long on accusations and short on evidence to me.

I've been told in other cases that the civil suit is sometimes filed to get things like internal HR documents, emails and investigation results into the court system and potentially into the public domain.

Since this discovery phase can be costly and possibly promote negative media coverage for the defendant, particularly in the #MeToo era, there is pressure to reach a settlement before the case goes to trial.

[Airbanda]

There have been a string of failed prosecutions for rape in the UK that have collapsed because the police failed to disclose evidence to the defence that proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the woman had consented. Mainly posts after the event on social media.

Under UK law the accused is identified but the alleged victim has anonymity: even after the case has collapsed. In some cases it took two years for the case to be dismissed. Not hard to imagine what the accused went through in the meantime.

The pendulum has swung to far in favour of the woman.

There have been a small number of high profile cases in UK where police/CPS have failed to identify or disclose evidence that casts doubt on accusation. Failure is not limited to sexual crimes though. In part that's about not looking for evidence contrary to prosecution case. Far more though it's down to system's demand for everything in paper bundles and failure to deal with sheer volume of data on a phone or PC.

The accuser has had anonymity for around forty years. There's a reasonable case to be made for extending that to the accused. There would be discretion to judge to remove it in interest of justice such as where (Savile, Clifford etc) serial offending is probable.

Are you seriously suggesting the accuser should lose her anonymity if the case collapses? Do you include a not guilty verdict as a collapse? Not guilty means the jury were not sure; it doesn't make the accuser a lying charlatan. If she is then the charge of perverting the cause of justice is appropriate.

The pendulum has not even reached half way. While the consequences of an ill founded accusation against an innocent male are ruinous the probability for those not chancing their hand is around same as that of a dual engine failure from unrelated causes.

[voyageur9]

If the hotel security video provides evidence that:

"... was incapacitated, that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and this whole time he’s trying to get me into the room, and I’m trying to put up whatever fight I can,” Pina said.

.... then this is nothing at all like a 'he said/she said" event.

[A Squared]

If the hotel security video provides evidence that:

"... was incapacitated, that it took 18 to 20 minutes to get from the elevator to the room, and this whole time he’s trying to get me into the room, and I’m trying to put up whatever fight I can,” Pina said.

.... then this is nothing at all like a 'he said/she said" event.

Right. *if*.

I haven't seen that video, have you?

As nearly as I can tell, she (Pina) hasn't seen it either. So, like I said, what we have is what Pina claims that someone else told her the video shows. IOW, "she said". If there is indeed video whcih does indeed show the captain dragging her down the hall into his room and her clearly trying to resist (not drunkenly requiring assistance) then yeah, that's nothing like he said/she said.

Got a link to that video? If not, then all you, or I, or anyone else has is what she said.

[tdracer]

Hmm, interesting. Reading some of the articles linked in that one, it seems that this guy has a habit of entering documents into the court record for no other purpose than to get them into the media.
A Squared, you'd need to have lived in the Seattle area to appreciate all the twists and complexities of the whole sad Ed Murray fiasco (very short version, gay Seattle Mayor was accused by multiple men of having been sexually abused by Murray as minors - some accusations first reported over 20 years ago - ultimately resulting in his resignation). There were enough people (many employed by the city of Seattle) attempting to protect Murray and smear his alleged victims that the lawyer in question probably believed it was the only way to get his version of the story out.
Once the accusations of sexual misconduct became public, others quickly came forward with similar stories, which pretty much sealed Murray's fate. Some have postulated a similar motive here - to get other possible victims to come forward.

[galaxy flyer]

I’d bet money that’s the motivation for all the publicity here—get a few F/As to come forth with a story like this F/O’s experience and AK, the captain is toast.
GF

[oldchina]

I reckon the first thing the airline would do would be to ask to see the hotel's security video. I don't see how the hotel could refuse, especially as the lawsuit depends on it being called a work place.
If the video showed what is being alleged, the captain would have been immediately fired.

[A Squared]

If the video showed what is being alleged, the captain would have been immediately fired.

That's one of the things whcih don't quite add up. She claims that Alaska's attorney investigating the incident has seen the video, (prior to her filing of the lawsuit) and that it does show the captain dragging her into his room against her resistance, yet they didn't fire him. That seems extraordinary.

[aterpster]

That's one of the things whcih don't quite add up. She claims that Alaska's attorney investigating the incident has seen the video, (prior to her filing of the lawsuit) and that it does show the captain dragging her into his room against her resistance, yet they didn't fire him. That seems extraordinary.

"..things which don't quite add up" more than quite I would say.

[Sunamer]

There have been a small number of high profile cases in UK where police/CPS have failed to identify or disclose evidence that casts doubt on accusation. Failure is not limited to sexual crimes though. In part that's about not looking for evidence contrary to prosecution case. Far more though it's down to system's demand for everything in paper bundles and failure to deal with sheer volume of data on a phone or PC.

The accuser has had anonymity for around forty years. There's a reasonable case to be made for extending that to the accused. There would be discretion to judge to remove it in interest of justice such as where (Savile, Clifford etc) serial offending is probable.

Are you seriously suggesting the accuser should lose her anonymity if the case collapses? Do you include a not guilty verdict as a collapse? Not guilty means the jury were not sure; it doesn't make the accuser a lying charlatan. If she is then the charge of perverting the cause of justice is appropriate.

The pendulum has not even reached half way. While the consequences of an ill founded accusation against an innocent male are ruinous the probability for those not chancing their hand is around same as that of a dual engine failure from unrelated causes.

Not guilty means not guilty; not enought evidence presented to prove beyond reasonable doubt the accussed actually did what the accuser claims. Not guilty verdict does not, however, does not mean they were not sure, therefore the accused might still be guilty.

[fitliker]

Not proven | Legal Issues in Scotland Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia (http://scotslaw.wikia.com/wiki/Not_proven)
Not proven is a verdict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict) available to a court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courts_of_Scotland) in Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland).
Under Scots law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_law), a criminal trial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_procedure) may end in one of three verdicts: one of conviction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction) ("proven") and two of acquittal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquittal) ("not proven" and "not guilty"). Historically, the two verdicts available to Scots juries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juries) were that the case had been "proven" or "not proven". However in a dramatic case in 1728 the jury asserted "its ancient right" to bring in a "not guilty" verdict even when the facts of the case were proven (see jury nullification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification)). As the "not guilty" verdict gained wide acceptance amongst Scots juries, Scots began to use "not guilty" in cases where the jury felt the "not proven" verdict did not adequately express the innocence of the defendant.

[oldchina]

"get a few F/As to come forth with a story like this F/O’s experience and AK, the captain is toast"

Any FA short of cash? Join us and make free money. Captains are rich anyway!
To hell with the truth.

[ehwatezedoing]

"get a few F/As to come forth with a story like this F/O’s experience and AK, the captain is toast"

Any FA short of cash? Join us and make free money. Captains are rich anyway!
To hell with the truth.

Unbelievable comment.... :rolleyes:

[Airbubba]

Not guilty means not guilty; not enought evidence presented to prove beyond reasonable doubt the accussed actually did what the accuser claims. Not guilty verdict does not, however, does not mean they were not sure, therefore the accused might still be guilty.

Or as Larry L. Archie, Esq. famously advertises: "Just because you did it doesn't mean you're guilty."

https://twitter.com/ijukes/status/563195270272262144

The plaintiff media campaign hails the accuser as a decorated military veteran. But so is the accused, a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel in the reserves.

Unless Alaska coughs up a big cash settlement, we'll probably find out more as this case progresses.

[tdracer]

"get a few F/As to come forth with a story like this F/O’s experience and AK, the captain is toast"

Any FA short of cash? Join us and make free money. Captains are rich anyway!
To hell with the truth.
Sadly, that's the case in pretty much any legal process. It's an open secret in the industry that you can hire accredited 'experts' that will give whatever testimony you pay them to give.

[Greek God]

Sailvi767
We had a flight attendant fearing the loss of her job after missing pickup make a accusation against a pilot for sexual assault as the reason she was unable to report. His entire career and personal life were facing disaster. He was saved only because the hotel had a sophisticated key logging system for entry and exit of every room that showed her story was completely false.

A colleague of mine with a well known ME airline had a similar accusation from an FA with the difference that she made a phone call to him saying unless you give me a large cash donation I'm going to accuse you of attempted rape and assault.
He immediately called ops, both removed from the flight. An investigation revealed her story false (hotel CCTV and key log) furthermore it also revealed she had used this ploy several times successfully in the past!

Conversly, I have been on jury service for a rape (inability to give consent) the perp was really cocky (sorry) arrogant and a genuine toerag but we couldn't find him guilty as not enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Felt really frustrated but sometimes the law sucks. Sadly its all we have and this problem will always cause controversy with justice and injustice in both senses.

[costalpilot]

Sadly, that's the case in pretty much any legal process. It's an open secret in the industry that you can hire accredited 'experts' that will give whatever testimony you pay them to give.


experts are not proffered victims. and its hardly a secret (anywhere) that experts are available to testify for a fee.

[costalpilot]

Yep, as I observed here earlier:

".....The suit appears long on accusations and short on evidence to me..."

So far, we have a Complaint and a couple of newspaper articles based on it. Do you really expect the "evidence" to be included in the Complaint?

Haven't you watched Perry Mason at least?

[Airbubba]

Haven't you watched Perry Mason at least?

No, please enlighten us with your legal wisdom perfessor. ;)

[galaxy flyer]

The complaint isn’t evidence, it’s a complaint that’s all. The factual matter will come out of discovery, depositions and trial. This case won’t go to trial and likely be covered by NDAs all around. You’ll get more here than from the legal system.


Gf

[costalpilot]

No, please enlighten us with your legal wisdom perfessor. ;)

google :

"........What Complaints Look Like

Criminal complaints tend to look similar, particularly within the same
county or court. Prosecuting offices have templates that they adjust
depending on the case at hand.

A complaint normally has a caption at the top indicating:
the court where the case is being filed
the party filing the complaint (for example, “The People of the State of
California” or “United States of America”), and
the defendant.

The complaint then includes come kind of description of the accusations against the defendant.

....."

and

"....evidence: Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects....."

[Airbubba]

Criminal complaints tend to look similar, particularly within the same
county or court. Prosecuting offices have templates that they adjust
depending on the case at hand.


Uh, you do realize don't you that this is not a criminal complaint? :confused:

[costalpilot]

Uh, you do realize don't you that this is not a criminal complaint? :confused:

a complaint is a complaint..its got nothing to do with evidence. confused indeed

[Airbubba]

confused indeed

I can see that. I rest my case. :D

[aterpster]

a complaint is a complaint..its got nothing to do with evidence. confused indeed

A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deltasierra010]

There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, maybe his account is true, maybe hers is true, maybe both are invention, we will never know. Her lawyers have told her she has no chance of a winning a case against him and could be sued for defamination if she tries, so they have dreamt up some kind of unfair treatment case against the employer.
The employer is in a no win position, they have to respond to the case so it is going to cost a great deal in legal costs, they are likely to loose a court hearing with a jury because a jury always favors the poor defendant against the big bad company. So they will settle out of court with a NDA, that's the way it is, a big payday for her and the lawyers, nothing whatsoever to do with " me too ".

[Airbanda]

A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In UK a completely groundless complaint can be chucked out as vexatious, abuse of process etc with costs. If there's a no win/no fee agreement then lawyers will assess probable-cause evidence before proceeding.

I suspect it's same in most if not all states in US.

[voyageur9]

There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, .... .

There's likely plenty of evidence although perhaps not of the absolute 'presence of body fluids' and 'clear physical signs of struggle.' But there will likely be witnesses to the events preceding, phone logs, perhaps security video, accounts of who told whom what in aftermath. If that evidence tends to buttress one version over the other and especially if there seems to have been sufficient prior incapacitation so as to render meaningful consent impossible, then the outcome of either the civil case in court or the decsion of one side to fold before going to trial will reflect that.

And a civil case against the employer often makes good legal sense (not just because of deep pockets) if the cause of action occurred while the employed individual was on company time and business and company policies governed behavior for safety or other reasons

[voyageur9]

It’s almost impossible to avoid the conclusion, this is just all about money. Lot’s of it!

That is what civil cases are for; damages.

Consider, a car driven by an employee of a common carrier leaves the road and smashes through your your fence. The evidence to meet the (quite properly) very high bar to obtain a criminal conviction for trespass is insufficient perhaps because you can't establish the identity of the driver of he claims persuasively he swerved to avoid a child.

Still you sue the company for damages to have your fence repaired and to recover the costs you incurred while the fence was damaged as a consequence of the trespass. Those losses could be significant depending on the circumstances and could include punitive and well as compensatory damages if gross negligence (such as the driver, irrespective of the circumstances, was in violation of employer's safety policies regarding route and driving time.)

Do you really believe that your decision to sue for damages should be pilloried because a criminal conviction was unobtainable for any reason, including (perhaps) your own failure to secure evidence or your confusion in the immediate aftermath?

I'm not drawing conclusions. I'm simply trying to point out that the absence of a criminal complaint or even a report to police does not rule out legitimate cause for civil action.

I fully admit this is an imperfect analogy and I'm not trying to be argumentative, simply that it is unfair to presume damages didn't result or an act didn't occur because an individual or the state chose not to seek a criminal charge.

[aterpster]

In UK a completely groundless complaint can be chucked out as vexatious, abuse of process etc with costs. If there's a no win/no fee agreement then lawyers will assess probable-cause evidence before proceeding.

I suspect it's same in most if not all states in US.
Pretty much the same, except it is usually thrown out when it is a Frivolous Lawsuit, as opposed to vexatious, upon which the plaintiff must pay his and the defendant's legal fees.

Then, the defendant can sue the plaintiff for malicious prosecution.

Depending upon the facts presently known to Alaska Airlines, they might take the plaintiff to the mat, so to speak, rather than caving to a confidential settlement.

(Vexatious litigant in the U.S. is generally one who files repetitive frivolous lawsuits.)

[oldchina]

Depending upon the facts presently known to Alaska Airlines, they might take the plaintiff to the mat.
Especially if they have seen the mysterious security video and it casts doubt on the FO's version. They would easily have seen it if the hotel (not in a great position so far) let them. Why not?

[costalpilot]

A wide gap between civil and criminal law. A criminal complaint in the U.S. is filed by either the district attorney or a grand jury, and only after probable-cause evidence has been presented in support of the complaint.

No evidence is required for a civil lawsuit complaint.

Huge, huge, difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



the issue was not about the difference between a civil and a criminal charge. It was only about the nature of a filing document, i.e. the Complaint.

and whether or not the observation that the "suit" appears "long on accusation and short on evidence" was helpful or not.

as My Cousin Vinny would say, "I'm not laying my cards on the table b4 the bid."

[A Squared]

the issue was not about the difference between a civil and a criminal charge. It was only about the nature of a filing document, i.e. the Complaint.

and whether or not the observation that the "suit" appears "long on accusation and short on evidence" was helpful or not.

as My Cousin Vinny would say, "I'm not laying my cards on the table b4 the bid."

Your point is well taken that what has been filed to date is merely the complaint, and that evidence would be normally presented later, at trial. It's worth noting though, that the complaint only makes reference to what the plaintiff (Pina) was allegedly told, by a third party about what the hotel security video showed. If I were filing a complaint, and I had video whcih proved my claims, I'd phrase it as; "the video shows ... " not as; " I was told by X that the video shows ..." This seems to suggest that the plaintiff in not in possession of that video, and has not even seen it herself. Yes, it could be a case of keeping cards close to the chest until the right moment, but I'm not sure what advantage can be gained from that with the video. Supposedly, Alaska's attorney has seen the video, and it either shows what Pina claims it shows, or it doesn't. If it does, then there's no element of surprise to be gained because company representatives have already seen it, and Pina has already made statements about what she claims it shows. Also, given that Pina has embarked on a media campaign regarding her allegations with interviews and appearances, it seems if there was video which showed the Captain dragging her into his room while she tries to escape, and she was in possession of said video, she would providing it to the media outlets she is using for her campaign. Certainly seeing a video clip of that would turn me from a "wait and see" skeptic to someone who believes her account. I would imagine a lot of others would be the same. So in consideration of all that, I'm thinking that she doesn't have the video and/or it doesn't show what she claims, and it may not even exist any more.

[A Squared]

There is no evidence, only 2 accounts of what happened that night, maybe his account is true, maybe hers is true, maybe both are invention, we will never know.

It's worth reiterating that we only have one account; Hers. Neither the captain in question nor Alaska have publicly made any statements about the incident. (other than Alaska's non-statement that they are investigating and take this seriously) All information (true or false) that we have before us has been supplied by Pina.

[Deltasierra010]

I was rather assuming that the captain has been interviewed by the airline about the background to this complaint and of course will put an innocent gloss on his account, because something happened. The fact that both were unable to fly next day will have been noted on his record, anything further will damage his career and maybe personal life.

Her case that she was treated wrongly by the company has some merit, according to earlier posts she took 6 months leave (voluntary?) whereas he continued flying, did she receive the " correct" handling by the company. Together with the media appearances it is publicity the company needs to get rid of quickly, does anyone want to bet against her getting a payoff.

[aterpster]

I was rather assuming that the captain has been interviewed by the airline about the background to this complaint and of course will put an innocent gloss on his account, because something happened. The fact that both were unable to fly next day will have been noted on his record, anything further will damage his career and maybe personal life.

I worked under an ALPA contract, as does the subject captain. Any derogatory written comments or discipline by the company would be removed from the pilot's personnel file after 3 years and upon the pilot's request. The exception was comments or discipline directly pertaining to aircraft operation.

[oldchina]

Her case that she was treated wrongly by the company after the event has some merit.

Maybe, but that is not the main complaint in the lawsuit. It is that Workplace Rape took place and she wants damages for that.

[WillFlyForCheese]

Interesting to see so many of those who tell non-pilots to lay off the keyboard now pretending to be lawyers. Stick to your day jobs boys - it’s quite clear you have little to no idea of what you type.

[aterpster]

Interesting to see so many of those who tell non-pilots to lay off the keyboard now pretending to be lawyers. Stick to your day jobs boys - it’s quite clear you have little to no idea of what you type.

To help the thread along, please give us your clarity.

[oldchina]

Betty has gone quiet ...

[Airbanda]

Betty has gone quiet ...

Suit filed and publicity round done. Presumably next step is for Alaska Airlines to file a defence followed by judges directions, disclosure etc abd a hearing in 2019 though I'd expect it to be settled before the court doors open.

Here in UK we've recently had a deal of publicity about a multiple offender named John Warboys whose MO was to drug and rape/sexually assault youn women in back of his London taxi. Like complainant in this case they report odd tasting drink, walls closing in and eventually waking up grossly confused and with amnesia. Recollection of what might have happened to them comes more slowly than time for next shower etc. Forensics long gone.

All of which is corroborative as to why Ms Pinar might not have reported rape promptly. By time two and two were put together any criminal trial will be he said/she said where he presumably avers consent. Such cases, with a criminal standard of proof, are a lottery as to outcome and the sort of nightmare procedurally and evidentialy that lawyers will want to avoid. In UK CPS would drop it like a hot potato -would it be same with a DA in US?

OTOH whatever happened occurred on duty. The standard of proof is civil - balance of probability. Good legal advice for her would be that it's better to deal with it as an Employment issue. She goes down that line but Employer's inquiry seems to be going nowhere and he's getting the clean end of the stick while she feels she's getting the shi**y end.

Reasonable at that point to up the ante. That's how Employemnt cases go.

[aterpster]

The complaint should be publicly available. It takes an attorney to find it, though.

[Airbubba]

The complaint should be publicly available. It takes an attorney to find it, though.

As cited twice previously on this thread, the 'Complaint for Damages: Workplace Rape' is posted here by Seattle Times reporter Louis Kamb:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4411327-Pina-v-Alaska-Airlines.html

Many, if not most, U.S. court records are supposed to be available to the public under sunshine laws enacted decades ago. However in the digital age the docs are served on sites like www.pacer.gov that have registration requirements and user fees that tend to discourage perusal by other than legal professionals.

Pina v. Alaska Airlines is filed in King County Superior Court and the documents may be accessed electronically by jumping through the hoops and paying the fees listed on this web page:

https://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/clerk/access-records/ECR-online.aspx

[aterpster]

As cited twice previously on this thread, the 'Complaint for Damages: Workplace Rape' is posted here by Seattle Times reporter Louis Kamb:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4411327-Pina-v-Alaska-Airlines.html

Many, if not most, U.S. court records are supposed to be available to the public under sunshine laws enacted decades ago. However in the digital age the docs are served on sites like www.pacer.gov that have registration requirements and user fees that tend to discourage perusal by other than legal professionals.

Pina v. Alaska Airlines is filed in King County Superior Court and the documents may be accessed electronically by jumping through the hoops and paying the fees listed on this web page:

https://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/clerk/access-records/ECR-online.aspx

Thanks Airbubba. Informative! And, I missed the previous two messages with the link to the newspaper. The PDF is now downloaded. This is where the media does a real service to the public.

Thanks again.

[Airbubba]

Alaska Airlines CEO Brad Tilden has recently posted this update on his blog, possibly in response to claims that Alaska Airlines did not properly address Ms. Pina's initial allegations of sexual assault.

...But because this work takes all of us, I’m writing to share an update. Here is what we’ve started:

We recognized the need to update training to support our employees. We’ll continue to learn from our employees, labor partners, guests, law enforcement, and experts in the field to design new training and resources.

To begin, we launched new training for flight attendants and added a sexual assault scenario to existing recurrent training based on information from RAINN, the nation’s largest anti-sexual violence organization, and the King County Sexual Assault Resource Center. This summer we’ll hold additional in-person training.

This spring, we’re hosting conversations about preventing and addressing sexual harassment and assault.

We’re developing training for all employees aimed at preventing sexual harassment and assault, and other forms of harassment, with a research-based approach focused on the impact of individual choices to shift social norms.

And we’re developing onboard resources to clarify how guests can support one another and our crews. Every day, we see examples of how you look out for each other and for our employees. We want to do our part to help make sure this continues.

To be clear, sexual harassment and assault have absolutely no place in our workplace, on board our flights, or any place.

In cases of violence or sexual assault, employees and guests should call 911 immediately...

https://blog.alaskaair.com/alaska-airlines/people/respect/

[edmundronald]

There have been a small number of high profile cases in UK where police/CPS have failed to identify or disclose evidence that casts doubt on accusation. Failure is not limited to sexual crimes though. In part that's about not looking for evidence contrary to prosecution case. Far more though it's down to system's demand for everything in paper bundles and failure to deal with sheer volume of data on a phone or PC.

The accuser has had anonymity for around forty years. There's a reasonable case to be made for extending that to the accused. There would be discretion to judge to remove it in interest of justice such as where (Savile, Clifford etc) serial offending is probable.

Are you seriously suggesting the accuser should lose her anonymity if the case collapses? Do you include a not guilty verdict as a collapse? Not guilty means the jury were not sure; it doesn't make the accuser a lying charlatan. If she is then the charge of perverting the cause of justice is appropriate.

The pendulum has not even reached half way. While the consequences of an ill founded accusation against an innocent male are ruinous the probability for those not chancing their hand is around same as that of a dual engine failure from unrelated causes.

The egregious feature of the cases that collapsed in the UK was the willingness of the police and prosecution to go forward with a criminal case in the light of ample direct evidence of consent - and their willingness to subsequently extend their deliberate disregard of reality by refusing to hand over said evidence to the defense. One can understand that some people feel the pendulum may have swung too far when disculpatory evidence is deliberately not handed over to the accused's lawyers. The Rolling Stone case in the US has many of the same features although here it is building the facts to fit the case in investigative reporting rather than prosecution that is at fault. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/business/media/rape-uva-rolling-stone-frat.html

Edmund

[RatherBeFlying]

Gents my age seem invisible to young ladies - or assumed hard of hearing.

A young lady at an adjacent table in a coffee shop was discussing her involuntary sexual encounter at a party with another young lady sat on the bench next to me. Not having been invited to the conversation, I decided remaining apparently oblivious with my nose in the paper would occasion the least distress at a difficult time.

She showered for two hours after.
Then a friend advised her to go to Emerg.
She didn't know what she wanted to happen and still doesn't.
She cried for two weeks.
Her family doctor when apprised of the incident stated that the lesson was to leave a party immediately the first bottle of beer was opened.
Now she is concerned that if she does not take it to the police, nothing will stop the perp from victimising somebody else.

It makes me wonder if a civil suit might be a better way to get even than a criminal proceeding where the matter is taken completely out of the victim's hands.

[tsgas]

I miss Joe Friday and his famous line "just the facts mam". This thread has become a very emotional and political charged rant for many.

All that I can add it that during my years working with the airlines I was harassed many times by women. They really didn't accept a no for an answer, when we were overnighting ,and they had a bit to drink. They behaved no better then men but I just took it in stride.

[flash8]

All that I can add it that during my years working with the airlines I was harassed many times by women. They really didn't accept a no for an answer, when we were overnighting ,and they had a bit to drink.

Downroute anything that can happen will happen. In my experience, on overnights, once they hit the bar (i.e. always) UK crews were nothing but trouble, up-front were generally much better behaved. I found US crews though to be impeccable... never once saw any problems with them.

We had a male flight attendant accused of sexual harassment (of another male) in a Georgian bar (the country Georgia... macho to the core). How we got him out of that bar alive still shakes me to this day.

[warbirdfinder]

[I]All that I can add it that during my years working with the airlines I was harassed many times by women. They really didn't accept a no for an answer, when we were overnighting ,and they had a bit to drink. They behaved no better then men but I just took it in stride.[I]

As to the above, "What is the difference between a fairy tale and a flying story?

They both begin with " Once upon a time...."

[Deltasierra010]

I've worked with predominantly women for many years and I can assure you they are capable of anything you can imagine and a lot more besides. Hand on heart I have only transgressed once, a group of 3 in their late 20s decided that the first one to lay me would win a bet, that was enjoyable for a few weeks and ended amicably but then the other 2 said " me too". The amount of trouble they caused when I said no was considerable ( hell hath no fury and all that) so forgive me for being sceptical about claims of rape a month or ten yrs after the event.

[tsgas]

warbirdfinder remember that fools that don't learn from the past are stupid enough to repeat them all over again.

In aviation we have a saying " learn from the mistakes of others , you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".

[PPRuNe Towers]

Opened again when there is actual news.

Rob

[A Squared]

Since the original thread has been locked. (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/606566-alaska-airlines-fo-alleges-rape-captain-msp-layover.html)

Here's the latest news on that. (https://www.foxnews.com/travel/alaska-airlines-pilot-accused-of-rape-sues-co-pilot-carrier-amid-false-metoo-claims)


A former senior Alaska Airlines pilot who was fired earlier this year after a female co-pilot sued the airline, alleging that the captain drugged and raped her during a June 2017 work trip, (http://Alaska%20Airlines%20pilot%20accused%20of%20rape%20sues%20co-pilot,%20carrier%20amid%20%E2%80%98false%20#MeToo%20claims%E 2%80%99) has filed a lawsuit of his own against his accuser and the carrier. The aviator, who flew for Alaska for 22 years, claims he was wrongly terminated amid “false #MeToo claims” in a “negligent, flawed investigation.”Paul Engelien filed the lawsuit against former First Officer Betty Pina after the 40-year-old woman claimed the captain, 51, drugged and raped her during a layover on a work trip to Minnesota in June 2017, the Seattle Times reported (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/former-alaska-airlines-pilot-sues-airline-contending-he-was-wrongly-fired-amid-false-rape-claims/) on Nov. 2.

According to Engelien’s litigation, (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5027789-Engelien-Lawsuit-v-Alaska.html) Pina falsely invented the claims of sexual assault in order to avoid “workplace discipline” given her status as a probationary employee. The former military pilots were subjected to a “routine, internal” alcohol-consumption violation investigation by Alaska regarding their actions on the trip.https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2018/09/640/320/betty20pina.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Officials at Alaska believed that the pair may have violated the airline’s ten-hour alcohol rule during the work trip, which prohibits pilots from consuming alcohol within ten hours of duty. (Reuters/LinkedIn)




Officials at Alaska believed that the pair may have violated the airline’s ten-hour alcohol rule during layover, which prohibits pilots from consuming alcohol within ten hours of duty.“Pina’s false claims defamed Engelien, invaded his privacy, decimated his life and career, and caused him severe distress,” Engelien's lawsuit states, arguing that Alaska’s human resources advisor lead a “negligent, flawed and pretextual [internal] investigation” regarding the claims.The lawsuit also states that Pina was previously involved in a similar incident during her time working for Alaska in May 2017, during which she reportedly “drank too much, blacked out, then later blamed others,” the Times reports.According to Pina’s LinkedIn profile, she now flies for a Hawaii-based carrier.https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2018/09/640/320/alaska-airlines.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Engelien was grounded by Alaska almost immediately after news of Pina’s lawsuit broke in March 2018, before his employment with the airline was terminated. (iStock)




Engelien was grounded by Alaska almost immediately after news of Pina’s lawsuit broke in March 2018, before his employment with the airline was eventually terminated.Though Pina’s lawsuit against Alaska was settled out of court in September of this year, Engelien claims that he has suffered “devastating economic, emotional and reputations injuries and damages” as caused by accuser’s “false #MeToo” claims" in the lawsuit.Representatives for Alaska Airlines did not immediately return Fox News’ request for comment on the story.

[Hotel Tango]

I doubt if the truth will ever be known, but the lawyers will make a lot of dosh that's for sure!