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Carbon Bootprint
14th Mar 2018, 00:02
The airline that just keeps giving...sensational headlines to the media.

United Airlines has accepted "full responsibility" for a dog's in-flight death after a flight attendant put the pet in the overhead locker.

"This was a tragic accident that should never have happened," the airline said.

The French bulldog died during a flight from Houston to New York on Monday.

Witnesses said the flight attendant had asked one of the passengers to put her airline-approved pet carrier in the locker. The attendant later said she did not know the dog was in the bag.

An eyewitness account posted on social media (where else?) contradicts the flight attendant's statement that she wasn't aware of the contents, and alleges the dog's owner pushed back but eventually complied with the FA's order.

More details from the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43394952)

ZFT
14th Mar 2018, 01:15
The airline that just keeps giving...sensational headlines to the media.



An eyewitness account posted on social media (where else?) contradicts the flight attendant's statement that she wasn't aware of the contents, and alleges the dog's owner pushed back but eventually complied with the FA's order.

More details from the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43394952)

She who must be obeyed!

Dee Vee
14th Mar 2018, 01:29
The airline that just keeps giving...sensational headlines to the media.

is it normal to allow dogs in a cage to be in UA's the passenger deck?

I've never seen that anywhere myself.....

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 01:37
The USA is a weird place that allows all sorts of animals on board an aircraft as 'emotional' support pets. This means you could be seated in the same row as a passenger with a pot bellied pig or a peacock.

I jest not.

United Airlines said Thursday it has updated its policy regarding emotional support animals, and American Airlines said it is reviewing its policy.

United's move follows a similar step by Delta as well as a United passenger’s effort last week to board a Newark departure along with an emotional support peacock. United denied boarding to the bird.

American is "reviewing our requirements with the goal of protecting our team members and our customers who have a real need for a trained service or support animal," said spokeswoman Shannon Gibson.


"Unfortunately, untrained animals can lead to safety issues for our team, our passengers and working dogs onboard our aircraft," she said. "We will continue to support the rights of customers, from veterans to people with disabilities, with legitimate needs.”

Starting March 1, United will require that passengers provide a health and vaccination form signed by the animal’s veterinarian as well as confirmation that “the animal has been trained to behave properly in a public setting and acknowledge responsibility for the animal’s behavior.”’

jack11111
14th Mar 2018, 01:47
Hey, did anyone see this dog ALIVE?

Anyone? Anyone?

Carbon Bootprint
14th Mar 2018, 01:49
I don’t believe this was an emotional support animal (like the famous UA peacock), just a small pet dog. UA and most US carriers normally allow small dogs and cats (and perhaps other critters) in the cabin on domestic flights long as they’re in an approved carrier that fits underneath the seat.

obgraham
14th Mar 2018, 01:58
This past year or so, every single flight I've been on in the US has had at least 4-8 dogs and cats aboard. Very few of which appear to be real "service" animals. Mostly those yappy little dogs we all hate.

On the other hand, United seems to go out of their way to avoid any sort of customer service.

lomapaseo
14th Mar 2018, 02:02
I don’t believe this was an emotional support animal (like the famous UA peacock), just a small pet dog

I'm not sure about the description

I sensed it was so big that it completely filled a bag that was too big to fit under a seat, hence it took up aisle space until it was ordered into the overhead.

What is lacking for my judgement, was how evident was it that the case contained a dog?. Was the head at least visible? Was it drugged? Was it identified in a manifest?

Time for published rules for live animals to be fully identified and vetted before carriage ... not after boarding.

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 02:50
I understand it was a small bulldog.

Frankly you have to question the logic of any airline or airport allowing pets other than guide dogs in the cabin.

This from the Washington Post last June.


When Marlin Jackson arrived at his row on a Delta flight from Atlanta to San Diego in June, the middle seat was already occupied by a man with a sizable dog on his lap. Jackson squeezed by them to his window seat, and the Labrador mix lunged at his face. The attack lasted about 30 seconds, according to Jackson’s attorney, and left him with facial wounds that required 28 stitches and scars that are still visible today.

The mauling, which Delta said was inflicted by a canine identified as an “emotional support” animal, was among the thousands of incidents that just pushed the nation’s largest airline to tighten rules for passengers flying with service or comfort animals. In announcing the changes Friday, Delta said it flew 250,000 animals in those categories last year, up 150 percent from 2015, while “incidents” such as biting or defecating had nearly doubled since 2016.

Delta emphasized safety concerns in detailing the increased documentation owners that will be required to provide about their animals. But its action also was spurred by a widespread perception among airlines and disability rights advocates that some fliers are fraudulently taking advantage of federal law to bring untrained pets of myriad species into crowded cabins.


Apart from the danger of being attacked by animals there is also the issue of others passengers rights.

In the story below a woman took a large pot bellied pig on board which caused mayhem by running wild in the cabin and defacating.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/30/2394EB2700000578-0-image-17_1417388683882.jpg



When US Airways passenger Robert Phelps first saw the woman coming down the aisle of the plane, he thought she had a "really big dog" or a stuffed animal thrown over her shoulder.

As she got closer, there was no denying that the woman was carrying a big brown pig, perhaps between 70 and 80 pounds, Phelps said.
"Everybody was trying to surmise what it could be, because no one thought it was a pig," he said. "Other than a Fellini movie, where would you see a person with a pig?"
The passenger was allowed to bring the pig on board as an "emotional support animal" under Department of Transportation guidelines, a US Airways spokeswoman said.
Apparently, it was not meant to be. Before the plane took off, the passenger and her pig were kicked for being "disruptive," spokeswoman Laura Masvidal said.
How disruptive? Fellow passengers told the Hartford Courant that the big brown pig stank up the cabin of the tiny D.C.-bound aircraft and defecated in the aisle.
Phelps watched in amusement and horror as the pig began "dropping things" in the aisle while his owner stowed her belongings. When she tied him to the armrest and tried to clean up after him, he began to howl.
"She was talking to it like a person, saying it was being a jerk," he said. "I have no problems with babies, but this pig was letting out a howl."
A flight attendant asked her to move to the front of the plane, and eventually she left, he said. He took a photo of her as she walked past him.
"I understand dogs and cats on planes. They come in crates, but this was way too big, and it had no container," he said. "It looked heavy. It was not a tiny, cute little pig."
Why was the animal allowed on the plane to begin with? People have been bringing "emotional support animals" on planes in increasing numbers in recent years, as well as to restaurants, museums and stores.
https://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/30/travel/emotional-support-pig-booted-flight/index.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/30/2396D36900000578-0-image-15_1417388524894.jpg

jack11111
14th Mar 2018, 03:28
If it ever has, this cries out for Federal legislation prohibiting any animal other than guide dogs or dog or cat in an approved under seat container. Period!

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 03:52
There are few if any countries outside the USA that allow pets in airport terminals let alone in the passenger cabin Jack.

How do they clear through security?

If people want to transport animals they can be caged and go in the hold.

Gauges and Dials
14th Mar 2018, 04:53
is it normal to allow dogs in a cage to be in UA's the passenger deck?

I've never seen that anywhere myself.....

United charges $125 for a pet. The pet must fit comfortably in an approved carrier, and the carrier must fit under the seat.

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/animals/in_cabin.aspx

obgraham
14th Mar 2018, 04:53
It's really very simple: The law requires that "service animals" be allowed, but does not define such. So no airline wants to face the lawsuit when they ban some nervous nellie's creature.

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 04:59
It appears many people are exploiting the situation.I cannot see what service a duck or a pig can perform or indeed tiny lap dog.

Service dogs, which are trained to perform tasks for a person with a disability, were first used by people with vision and hearing impairments. They are now also used by those who use wheelchairs or have other impairment in mobility, people who are prone to seizures or need to be alerted to medical conditions, like low blood sugar, and people with autism or mental illness. The American Humane Association, which promotes the welfare and safety of animals, says there are 20,000 service dogs working in the U.S.

Supporters of the new laws compare those misbehaving dog owners to people who acquire handicap signs so they can park in spaces intended for disabled people. The laws make it a misdemeanor to represent an untrained dog as a service animal, and usually come with fines of no more than $500 for an incident.

But because there is no certification or official national registry of legitimate service dogs, there is no way to verify whether a dog has undergone rigorous training to become a service animal.

That makes it hard to enforce the laws, said David Favre, a law professor at Michigan State University College of Law and editor of its Animal Legal and Historical Center website, which follows public policy issues related to animals. He said he’s not aware of anyone who has been prosecuted anywhere for violating them.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/10/29/several-states-crack-down-fake-service-animals/807676001/

FlightlessParrot
14th Mar 2018, 05:16
There are few if any countries outside the USA that allow pets in airport terminals let alone in the passenger cabin Jack.

How do they clear through security?

If people want to transport animals they can be caged and go in the hold.

It's some years ago now, but when I was transiting through Frankfurt I was surprised to see quite a number of small animals in the gate lounges.

GingerFI
14th Mar 2018, 05:38
But did the dog die as a result of being in the overhead locker?

Snub nosed breeds of dog are more likely to die when in aircraft (in the hold or cabin), than normal breeds of dog. They're bred to effectively have a slight breathing difficulty.......which turns in to suffocation as the cabin pressure climbs.

So this dog would have most likely died regardless of whether it sat in the overhead locker or on the captains knee munching on the remnants of the flight deck cheeseboard.

rjtjrt
14th Mar 2018, 07:33
But did the dog die as a result of being in the overhead locker?

Snub nosed breeds of dog are more likely to die when in aircraft (in the hold or cabin), than normal breeds of dog. They're bred to effectively have a slight breathing difficulty.......which turns in to suffocation as the cabin pressure climbs.

So this dog would have most likely died regardless of whether it sat in the overhead locker or on the captains knee munching on the remnants of the flight deck cheeseboard.

You aught to be a politician or in PR with that sort of “logic”.

MajorLemond
14th Mar 2018, 08:02
+1 above.

Sounds like it was on its way out anyway. Why would it die just because it was put in an overhead locker? They’re certainly not airtight. If it can’t survive being in it’s dog carrier in a locker, it was never going to survive the flight regardless.

Frenchies are reknowned for having difficulties breathing. They can’t even breed naturally.

aloominumtoob
14th Mar 2018, 08:10
Maybe wrong, but I don't seem to see anything on the thread about: ".......passenger safety is our main concern." With such large animals on board, what would happen "In the unlikely event........" THEN see the ambulance chasers come out of the wood!:rolleyes: Just a thought.
Good ole U.S., Land of the Weirdos.:)

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 08:25
What puzzles me is how the US airlines balance the right for someone to bring a pig or bird onboard against the responsibility for rest of the passengers. When livestock takes a dump the smell will permeate the cabin.

The FAA really need to tighten their procedures on this.

With Ryanair the pooch and container would be non standard carry on baggage.If it won't go in the overhead locker it goes in the hold.

clareprop
14th Mar 2018, 08:54
Dog dies in overhead locker on United Airlines plane - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43394952)

Whatever anyone here thinks about the rights and wrongs, it would appear this was a puppy in an approved container being transported according to the regulations of the carrier. The FA gave incorrect instructions to the passenger to place the carrier in the overhead locker. The passenger complied after protesting. The animal subsequently died in the locker. The airline has accepted full responsibility and stated the FA was in the wrong.
That seems pretty much done and dusted to me.
Whether American airlines should continue to emulate Noah's Ark is another subject..

Tal06
14th Mar 2018, 09:05
+1 above.
...They’re certainly not airtight...


I've seen this comment a bunch on this topic a heap but there is a big difference between airtight and appropriately ventilated. Cut the corner slightly off a large garbage bag, fill the bag with air, seal your head in it for a few hours and you will see what I mean. OK don't actually do that! (should go without saying but some people these days..) but you get my point. The bag isn't technically air tight but you wont survive without adequate ventilation. I see you are from Sydney but if you've ever been on a north american flight, there aint no breathing space in that over head bin once the first 20 passengers have boarded. This is winter there too so add jackets stuffed into every little space. The dog didn't stand a chance. The passanger had two choices, trust that the hostess knew what she was doing, or get dragged off the flight. It's not the passengers job to know the ventilation characteristics of the overhead bin.

Starbear
14th Mar 2018, 09:28
:ok::D:D:D:D:D:DHey, did anyone see this dog ALIVE?

Anyone? Anyone?

schweizer2
14th Mar 2018, 10:02
What puzzles me is how the US airlines balance the right for someone to bring a pig or bird onboard against the responsibility for rest of the passengers. When livestock takes a dump the smell will permeate the cabin.

The FAA really need to tighten their procedures on this.

With Ryanair the pooch and container would be non standard carry on baggage.If it won't go in the overhead locker it goes in the hold.


I agree animals in the cabin are a pain in the back side... but lets not start using Ryanair as the company to set standards..... They've done enough for aviation.

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 10:57
Jay Sata, this animal was a small French Bulldog being transported within the terms and conditions of the airline.

Against UA's record of its FAs attitudes towards passengers, it is hardly surprising that the passenger felt that she had to comply with the FA's wholly unreasonable instructions. If not, she might well thought that she could have been forcibly off-loaded by the security thugs employed at US airports.

A much loved family pet died during 3 1/2 hours of being incarcerated in a dark, noisy space without the opportunity for any comfort from the owner, or even to have some water. Just take a moment to think of the terror which the poor little creature suffered, thanks to that flight attendant.

The inflight PA chat from the flight deck must be amusing.

There is NOTHING amusing about this wholly avoidable tragedy. I hope that the FA is prosecuted for such a clear act of animal cruelty.

strake
14th Mar 2018, 11:28
There is NOTHING amusing about this wholly avoidable tragedy. I hope that the FA is prosecuted for such a clear act of animal cruelty.

Totally agree. Some people on here are making fun of the situation but the passenger did nothing at all wrong. I can just imagine the heartbreak of that little girl who has lost her puppy. The USA comes in for a lot of stick but I'm pretty sure there will be people there now whose humanity will shine through to the family.

strake
14th Mar 2018, 11:44
I take your point BEgle but elsewhere in the world we either leave our pets at home or arrange suitable kennels.
This thread is about a dog that died after the owner followed the incorrect instructions of an airline employee.
Suggest you start another one about your perception of the rights and wrongs of people who take a different view to yours?

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 12:03
FYI
most EU (and USA) carriers allow a small dog (not talking about a service or emotional support dog) to be carried on board as hand luggage into the cabin in an approved pet carrier/holdall and it must go under your seat in front of you

I have seen dogs on KLM LH AZ Condor aerolloyd IB Transavia and Delta

you can even take one out of LHR on LH and KLM (but you cannot bring a pet dog back into the UK so easily - check pet passport regs etc before you start booking)

you can also take dogs in the cabin to the Scilly Isles from NQY and LEQ on the skybus twin otter where they have a dog box put in place of a row of two seats - so you can sit opposite them

see here this Condor/Thomas Cook video of taking a chihuahua on board starts almost after Capt does his welcome - Our EU neighbours all love to take their little dogs and furbabies on holiday to the Med

https://youtu.be/VFgea3ye5cg

and the making of the video see from 2m 15s
https://youtu.be/vdOibKESgwU

Condor website link
https://www.condor.com/eu/flight-preparation/baggage-and-animals/travelling-with-pets/pets-in-cabin.jsp

Coco and missy at NQY waiting to board our twin otter #delayed
not impressed so far
lol

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 12:09
I think you are missing the point.

The flight attendant correctly assessed the space under the seat could not safely accommodate the container with dog. As with all carry on luggage if it does not fit under the seat it goes in the overhead locker.

In this case it should have gone in the hold where (in the rest of the world )animals are normally transported.

The chief cabin steward should have conferred with the captain prior to pushback.

The only exception in the USA for animals in the cabin is for those who perform a service.

I doubt this miniature bulldog had the mentality or temperament to be a guide dog.

However it appears there are plently of people who falsely claim their pets are service animals and this is the outcome.

please see my post and videos just above

and FYI
- you CAN take small dogs on board in the cabin certainly in the EU and the USA on many airlines (but not on most UK airlines though) - it's nothing new - even a pal took his chihuahua transatlantic last year from FCO to LAX va MXP and JFK on AZ and Delta there and back

and years ago my pal took his yorkie from IBZ to JFK via PMI and MAD there and back on IB and Spantax


you cannot take the dog out of its carrier whilst inflight

for the FA to put this dog/puppy in the OH locker beggars belief - if however the pet carrier was too big to go under the seat (although united say it was an approved sized carrier) then the passenger should have been dealt with in another way - moved seats for more room or rebooked to a less full flight - something like that - the check in and gate staff would have known about the dog -
there is enough info out there for pax wanting to take a small dog on board and FA's should be used to it - it's not uncommon in the EU or the States

The FA here seems to have fu**ed up big style and united have accepted the blame - no consolation for the poor girl who lost her dog

:(

clareprop
14th Mar 2018, 12:33
Considerably more than the dog was worth perhaps?
Maybe you should ask the 8-year old girl that question.

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 12:50
That's a fair point rog747. I guess that in a world where people are allowed to bring pigs on an airplane my cynicism generator sometimes gets overworked.
Clareprop, if she really loved it that much, would she have let it be stuffed in an overhead locker? Hardcore animal lovers say "it was like a child to me" Would you let your child be stuffed into an airless overhead locker? There is a disconnect here. Here's what I will say - UA will undoubtedly pay out a lot more than the commercial worth of that dog. And FWIW - I think dogs are great.

depends how stroppy the FA got or was getting -
- we all know what happens nowadays when you try and be reasonable let alone remonstrate with some cabin crew - it all gets way out of hand too quick -
the FSM should have been called etc etc etc to verify the ''issue'' the FA was having and sorted it - i cannot get in my head what was going on with the FA

remember this was not a 'jumped up weirdo' so-called service animal but an allowable pet on board (twas a puppy not a parrot peacock or a pot belly pig but a normal little puppy)

Thud105
14th Mar 2018, 13:00
Totally agree with every point you make Rog - but still can't help but think that I'd rather have got off (always an option) than allow the dog to be stuffed into an airless overhead locker, where it might - and indeed did - die. In fact, calling the FA's bluff and saying "in that case I'll get off" would've got the CSM and Captain's attention, as the aircraft wouldn't have been able to pushback until the passenger's hold luggage was off-loaded.

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 13:04
Totally agree with every point you make Rog - but still can't help but think that I'd rather have got off (always an option) than allow the dog to be stuffed into an airless overhead locker, where it might - and indeed did - die. In fact, calling the FA's bluff and saying "in that case I'll get off" would've got the CSM and Captain's attention, as the aircraft wouldn't have been able to pushback until the passenger's hold luggage was off-loaded.

yes spot on - i too so dont get why the pax allowed the FA to do this

did you see the Condor safety video i posted - perhaps pass that on to the said FA and UAL?

PaxBritannica
14th Mar 2018, 13:13
I've read that the passenger was travelling with a child and a baby, as well as the dog. Her journey would have been pretty stressful under the best of conditions. Deplaning would not have been an attractive prospect, especially as she could expect to be asked to put the dog in the locker in any alternative flight with the same airline.

I think she was not well-placed to sustain an argument with the FA. Anyone who's flown with a small child and a baby will know how stressful and preoccupying it is.

However, I'm also curious to know how airlines deal with dogs being allowed to travel on flights with allergic humans? I'm extremely allergic to dogs, not quite epipen level, but enough to swell up and alarm people. I've been on flights where snacks were withheld because there was a passenger with nut allergy on board. What about a passenger with dog allergy?

clareprop
14th Mar 2018, 13:16
but still can't help but think that I'd rather have got off

You do indeed have a good point there and if it was me on my own (unlikely as I don't have a dog!) I probably would have walked off but I guess the lady concerned, who was travelling with an 8 year old and a baby, just gave in after her argument with the attendant.

hoss183
14th Mar 2018, 13:19
A friend has traveled trans-Atlantic a couple of times with her pet Chihuahua in an approved bag. Although it did get out on the second occasion during the night and she and the CC had to search the cabin whilst poor folks were sleeping.
But clearly anything bigger than a cat should go in the hold.
In this case i would also put some blame on the owner. Bulldogs dont have the best respiration at the best of times, and unless it was young was probably too big for a cabin pet bag. She should have had some common sense to refuse to put it in the overhead, or to come on the plane in the first place with that situation.

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 13:27
Astonishingly, hoss123 wrote: In this case i would also put some blame on the owner.

No blame can be placed on the owner of this little ten month old puppy. She complied with the carrier's requirements, yet the ignorance of their Flight Attendant caused the wholly avoidable death of a much-loved pet.

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 13:30
A friend has traveled trans-Atlantic a couple of times with her pet Chihuahua in an approved bag. Although it did get out on the second occasion during the night and she and the CC had to search the cabin whilst poor folks were sleeping.
But clearly anything bigger than a cat should go in the hold.
In this case i would also put some blame on the owner. Bulldogs dont have the best respiration at the best of times, and unless it was young was probably too big for a cabin pet bag. She should have had some common sense to refuse to put it in the overhead, or to come on the plane in the first place with that situation.

yes indeed hindsight is a wonderful thing - but the cabin crew let her down here thats the main issue

and PaxBritannica

no way do you ever put pet dogs in the OH lockers on that flight or any other - no idea why you make such a surmise that if she took another flight she would expect the same - they have to go under your seat
and yes agree any dog much bigger than a small JRT yorkie or a chihuahua is too much to go in a bag in the cabin - so only tiny dogs yes- and it's not uncommon in EU or the states for small dogs in the cabin as I have shown

and as for allergies - oh come on - what do you do in a train pub or a cafe or at a pals - tell the folks with dogs to leave? - what nonsense
so do you cross the road each time if you see a dog coming?
that's taking it all abit far like the onboard bloody peacock -

am very sorry to learn that you have such an extreme allergy of dogs but if you travel on public transport or go out socially then frankly the risk assessment is for you to address surely?
the onus is not on others

Mike Flynn
14th Mar 2018, 14:05
I don't condone the placing of the dog in the overhead locker.

However an aircraft is a confined area where food is served.

I do not want to have to eat a meal next to a passenger who has an animal that has defacated under the footwell in the next seat or behind me.

There appears to be issues with snub nosed dogs according to Air France rules.

TRANSPORTING YOUR ANIMAL BY FREIGHT
In certain cases, your pet cannot travel with you in the cabin or in the hold. It must be transported by freight if:
the animal and its container weigh more than 75 kg / 165 lb,
it is traveling to a country that authorizes animal transport only by freight.

Snub-nosed dogs and cats, such as pugs, bulldogs, boxers, Shih Tzus and Persian or Burmese cats, are permitted for transport by freight on flights provided by Air France.
https://www.airfrance.fr/FR/en/common/voyage-en-avion/preparation-voyage/animaux-avion.htm

Frankly I would be worried about any animal in the cabin that weighed in at 75kg with container.

However back to the issue of the snub nosed animal dying on this flight.

Lufthansa also have this rule.

Information about travelling with snub-nosed dogs and cats

Dogs and cats belonging to snub-nosed breeds have anatomically restricted airways with the accompanying difficulty in breathing. The stress caused by transportation and/or high temperatures at the departure, transfer and destination airports can cause circulatory issues that may result in breathing problems. Your pet could suffer serious health problems or even die during the journey. https://www.lufthansa.com/us/en/Dangerous-Dogs

Avianca has this rule.

Brachiocephalic Breeds. Some breeds of dogs and cats have a series of anatomical idiosyncrasies that make it difficult for them to breathe properly; the condition is called Brachiocephalic Respiratory Syndrome. These pets have a flat nose and tend to present respiratory problems, making them susceptible to suffering hot flashes and breathing disorders when exposed to extreme temperature changes or stressful situations. Therefore, in order to protect these pets, THE CARRIER prohibits the carriage of the following breeds of dogs and cats or of breeds resulting from crossing them (that is to say, one of the pet’s parents belongs to one of the breeds below):see https://www.avianca.com/sv/en/contract-of-carriage.html

t1grm
14th Mar 2018, 14:22
The lack of empathy for a dead familiy pet on this thread is shocking and disturbing. No wonder the dog died if this is the prevailing attitude to pets on aircraft among those who work in the industry. Will be posting a link to this thread on as many social media and news sites as I can in order that the general public can see what an animal hating bunch the airline industry seems to be.

PaxBritannica
14th Mar 2018, 14:50
yes indeed hindsight is a wonderful thing - but the cabin crew let her down here thats the main issue

and PaxBritannica

no way do you ever put pet dogs in the OH lockers on that flight or any other - no idea why you make such a surmise that if she took another flight she would expect the same - they have to go under your seat
and yes agree any dog much bigger than a small JRT yorkie or a chihuahua is too much to go in a bag in the cabin - so only tiny dogs yes- and it's not uncommon in EU or the states for small dogs in the cabin as I have shown

and as for allergies - oh come on - what do you do in a train pub or a cafe or at a pals - tell the folks with dogs to leave? - what nonsense
so do you cross the road each time if you see a dog coming?
that's taking it all abit far like the onboard bloody peacock -

am very sorry to learn that you have such an extreme allergy of dogs but if you travel on public transport or go out socially then frankly the risk assessment is for you to address surely?
the onus is not on others

I think it's reasonable for the passenger to assume that the FA's request was company policy. Why wouldn't she think that another flight with the same airline would meet with the same treatment? She couldn't know that the FA was in fact contravening company rules.

Regarding your second point: it is indeed my responsibility to manage my allergy risk, but I'm curious to know what you think I can do to manage it? Antihistamine can only do so much. I'm careful not to touch dogs I encounter (much as I love dogs), I keep my distance in public encounters, I avoid anything that's been licked or whatever by a dog, and I DO leave situations where I'm beginning to wheeze. I can't do that in the constraints of a flight, if I'm seated next to a dog, if a dog is wandering around the cabin, or if the dog has potentially been sneezing on my hand-luggage.

My allergy is not rare or bizarre - many people have animal allergies, just as many people have nut allergies. I researched to find that ~6% of the UK has a food allergy (higher in children), and ~8% have dog allergies (18% have cat allergies). My question was, if airlines can refuse to serve nut-based snacks anywhere in the cabin because a single person on the flight has a nut allergy, why would an animal allergy not be respected to the same degree?

"The onus is not on others"? In most situations, I agree, but not in the peculiar circumstances of a flight. A train can at least stop at a station and shovel me onto an ambulance. It seems to me that the burden of discomfort should be on the person who wants to travel with an animal - which is an optional activity that can be managed in other ways. My very common allergy is not optional.

Chris2303
14th Mar 2018, 15:12
This gentleman is an AA B738 pilot.

This is what he says about travelling with dogs

https://jethead.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/when-dogs-fly/

hoss183
14th Mar 2018, 16:20
Astonishingly, hoss123 wrote:

No blame can be placed on the owner of this little ten month old puppy. She complied with the carrier's requirements, yet the ignorance of their Flight Attendant caused the wholly avoidable death of a much-loved pet.

I'm astonished too - You would do whatever a crew-member told you to do regardless? Jump up and down? Take your clothes off and run around naked?, Shoot yourself?
The CC is clearly partially responsible, but so is the owner.

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 16:30
This gentleman is an AA B738 pilot.

This is what he says about travelling with dogs

https://jethead.wordpress.com/2017/06/20/when-dogs-fly/

with respect the article he wrote mainly is about dogs transported in the cargo /baggage hold not in the pax cabin as is the case here

(which was completely permissible, but here it went horribly wrong)

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 16:38
I think it's reasonable for the passenger to assume that the FA's request was company policy. Why wouldn't she think that another flight with the same airline would meet with the same treatment? She couldn't know that the FA was in fact contravening company rules.


all united's rules here for all (pax and crew to see)

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/animals/in_cabin.aspx

united quote
United allows domesticated cats, dogs, rabbits and household birds (excluding cockatoos) to travel accompanied in the aircraft cabin on most flights within the U.S. An in-cabin pet may be carried in addition to a carry-on bag and is subject to a $125 service charge each way.

In-cabin pet kennels and carriers
A pet traveling in cabin must be carried in an approved hard-sided or soft-sided kennel. The kennel must fit completely under the seat in front of the customer and remain there at all times. The maximum dimensions for hard-sided kennels are 17.5 inches long x 12 inches wide x 7.5 inches high (44 cm x 30 cm x 19 cm). The recommended maximum dimensions for soft-sided kennels are 18 inches long x 11 inches wide x 11 inches high (46 cm x 28 cm x 28 cm). Soft-sided pet carriers may exceed these dimensions slightly, as they are collapsible and able to conform to under-seat space without blocking the aisle.

Advance reservations for in-cabin pet travel are required.
Request an in-cabin booking for your pet through united.com or by calling the United Customer Contact Center at 1-800-UNITED-1 (1-800-864-8331)

the long and short the crew and maybe the ground staff too [email protected]@@@d up big style

Gauges and Dials
14th Mar 2018, 16:44
yes spot on - i too so dont get why the pax allowed the FA to do this


Perhaps you missed the news stories a while back in which it became clear that passengers who show anything other than abject deference to UAL flight attendants tend to leave the aircraft with concussions and broken teeth.

rog747
14th Mar 2018, 16:59
Perhaps you missed the news stories a while back in which it became clear that passengers who show anything other than abject deference to UAL flight attendants tend to leave the aircraft with concussions and broken teeth.

No I did not miss them, all shocking - in my airline career since 1972 it was shameful - thank god i am well retired

sadly these days on various airlines world all over get all too quick getting into the realms of air rage which is not helpful, is it really?

The pax here was completely in the right - pre-booked in-cabin animal - which should have been on the PNR print out for the gate and crew (where was crew briefing? an in-cabin pet is basically the same as an infant but under seat not in your arms but should be on the PNR's)

pax had correct pet carrier and knew the place of stowage (under seat) but FA thought otherwise = dead dog

Carbon Bootprint
14th Mar 2018, 17:07
Not quite as tragic as yesterday's event, but today UA managed to mix up a German Shepherd bound for Kansas with a Great Dane bound for Japan. At least both dogs arrived alive.

News story here (https://www.click2houston.com/lifestyle/united-mistakenly-flies-kansas-dog-to-japan)

Turbine D
14th Mar 2018, 17:25
A prospective for pets transported on United Airlines:
According to a recent report issued by the Transportation Department, last year there were 24 recorded incidents of an animal dying while being transported by a major U.S. air carrier.

Of those 24 incidents, 18 took place on United Airlines.
United do seem to have their problems be they animal or human...:sad:

peterarmitage
14th Mar 2018, 17:26
I'm astonished too - You would do whatever a crew-member told you to do regardless? Jump up and down? Take your clothes off and run around naked?, Shoot yourself?
The CC is clearly partially responsible, but so is the owner.


It's a Federal offense in the USA to not follow the instructions of cabin or flight deck crew. The passenger had not choice but to do what she was told, or be ejected from the aircraft and arrested .... something that United have a history of doing.

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 18:10
An eye witness, also the owner of a French Bulldog (not travelling with her), reported that the cries of the little animal incarcerated in the overhead locker could be heard during the flight until he obviously gave up his struggle for life. That is so utterly distressing that the eye witness should employ one of those smart-alec US lawyers and sue the airline for the mental stress and anguish she suffered....:mad:

Are UA passengers now so terrified of UA's mentality that they won't intervene when some ignorant FA is so clearly causing animal cruelty?

Personally I would have opened the overhead and taken out the peet carrier as soon as the belt signs came off - and to hell with the consequences. But since I will NEVER travel with such an appalling airline, that's somewhat moot.

herman the crab
14th Mar 2018, 18:15
sorry
i was referring to jay sata's quote about what difference does animal size make not the press usa today quote

some folk here are mixing up service animals with
in cabin pets and cargo hold pets

(all 3 categoria differ)

Thanks for clarification.

I personally don't think any animal should be in the hold, mostly they're less of an irritation to other passenger than children - maybe they should be caged in the hold together?

USA law allows 2 questions related to service animals. If it's not clear that it is is a service animal you can ask if it is, you can also ask what service it is trained to provide. My company chooses to stop at the first question to avoid any adverse lawsuits. People clearly abuse this. It's usually obvious who abuse that despit it being a felony.

HTC

Fore_right
14th Mar 2018, 18:54
Second the view of an earlier poster that this thread seems to have diverted into a lot of discussion about anything and everything (allergies, emotional support animals, defecating pigs, etc, etc) apart from the despicable actions of the flight attendant. He / she clearly messed up and messed up big time. Messed up is probably an understatement.. An overlooked point here perhaps, but what were the other passengers and FAs doing while all of this was unfolding? Have we truly become that selfish and self absorbed to not step in and intervene on behalf of someone in distress? And apply some basic common sense?!

Gauges and Dials
14th Mar 2018, 20:03
Does anyone on this thread dispute any of the following?

United offers a service for a fee, namely transporting small pets in carriers in the cabin for $125.
Given that this is a service United chooses to offer and advertise, discussions of whether pets should be in the cabin or not are not germane to this case.
This was not a case of a bogus emotional support animal, but instead a case of a customer who paid for the service offered by United, and complied with all of the applicable rules related to that service.
Given the above, discussions of the (obvious) abuse of the "emotional support animal" loophole are not germane to this case.
The airline's published policy clearly states that pets in approved carriers go under the seat in front of the passenger.
Given this, the airline, in compelling the passenger to place the animal in the overhead bin, was violating its own published policies.
United has demonstrated a willingness to use violence against passengers who do not comply with requests that are, upon examination, unreasonable.
Given this, it is understandable why the passenger did not push back very hard against the airline's demand that the animal be placed in the overhead baggage compartment.

Intruder
14th Mar 2018, 21:21
HOWEVER, it IS the owner's fault that she NEVER checked on the dog inflight! She NEVER attempted to bring the dog down under the seat after takeoff. SHE was responsible for the dog. She even admitted later that she was distracted by her infant.

THE OWNER was responsible. SHE was the one who decided she could take care of 2 kids AND a dog on the flight. It was obviously beyond her capability in the end.

evansb
14th Mar 2018, 22:14
Indeed. She was seated within a few feet of where her dog was stowed.

Cats have been known to be packed and shipped in a van and arrive days later in fair health.

Did her dog have any known pre-exisiting ailments? (Perhaps already discussed)

By the way, in the landmark United Airlines ejected passenger case, it was on a Republic airlines flight with Republic crew operating a United sector. A United gate agent requested the passenger be removed. Airport security, not United, physically removed the passenger, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your epic saga.

Many, many passengers have been known to over-sedate their pets for a flight. i.e. "if two pills are too many, three is just enough".

I am not a United Airlines apologist but given they carry 150 million passengers a year with a fleet of over 1,200 aircraft, statistically they will have some noteworthy incidents.

rjtjrt
14th Mar 2018, 22:36
The lack of concern for the plight of this dog amoungst so many posters on this thread is appalling.

Thud105
14th Mar 2018, 22:47
" the cries of the little animal incarcerated in the overhead locker could be heard during the flight." Why the hell didn't THAT person (who apparently is also a dog owner) say something? Rather than reporting it later, why did that person not consider doing something then? Surely someone should have said something?

Zombywoof
14th Mar 2018, 22:47
The airline's published policy clearly states that pets in approved carriers go under the seat in front of the passenger.

Correct. The flight attendant should have told the dog owner "you cannot keep the dog in the aisle. If it won't fit under the seat, you have to get off this airplane".

And I believe the FA would have done exactly that if the owner was traveling alone, BUT she had two kids with her.

The FA didn't want to kick a mother with two kids off the plane, so he/she came up with what he/she thought was a reasonable compromise to allow them to fly.

As it turned out, that was a bad decision, but I can understand why it was made. The FA was in a tough position and made a judgement call.

Intruder
14th Mar 2018, 22:58
The lack of concern for the plight of this dog amoungst so many posters on this thread is appalling.
It is not "lack of concern", but an ABUNDANCE of concern that the OWNER of the dog was so irresponsible! Obviously the lawyers and PR hacks will blame the Flight Attendant and the airline, since they have deeper pockets and a reputation to regain...

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 23:08
The FA was in a tough position and made a judgement call.

What complete and utter nonsense! Take the trouble to read the airline's apology and you might understand the truth.

I wonder whether that ignorant FA will be haunted by the thought of the terrifying last few moments of his young life that poor little 10 month old puppy suffered thanks to her actions...:mad:

What action has UA actually taken against that woman?

Turbine D
14th Mar 2018, 23:12
Intruder,
It is not "lack of concern", but an ABUNDANCE of concern that the OWNER of the dog was so irresponsible!
IMHO, you are off the radar scope here. The problem was that the flight attendant apparently was poorly trained or wasn't trained at all in this aspect of the job. It wouldn't be a surprise. United combined with Continental not long ago and have struggled to bring the two cultures together. The dog was very small, the container was of a size approved by United. Maybe the continued scrunching together of seats to add revenue without changing animal carrier sizes was a contributing factor, who knows. For sure, United has done a terrible job of putting customers first, human or animal.

Your accusation is just bizarre!

Zombywoof
14th Mar 2018, 23:18
What complete and utter nonsense!So your position, then, is that the FA should have kicked the family off the flight, since they were clearly unable to comply with the conditions for pet carriage.

Do I have that right?

b1lanc
14th Mar 2018, 23:19
" the cries of the little animal incarcerated in the overhead locker could be heard during the flight." Why the hell didn't THAT person (who apparently is also a dog owner) say something? Rather than reporting it later, why did that person not consider doing something then? Surely someone should have said something?
Bingo - and I believe that person had the same breed - and knew they might have difficulty breathing.

Zombywoof
14th Mar 2018, 23:26
All the FA had to do was follow the airlines policy correctly.Correct. Fifi won't fit under the seat, so you people are not flying with us today.

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 23:27
Zombywoof, try reading the full facts and you might perhaps understand that the family complied exactly with the carrier's requirements, but the ignorant FA thought that she knew better...

Meanwhile, from MarketWatch:
Dog’s death on United flight should result in family being ‘significantly compensated’, says lawyer of man dragged from flight
(by Mark DeCambre)

Demetrio says family of the dead dog should be ‘significantly compensated’
The lawyer for the man who was dragged off a United Airlines flight says family of the dog should be “significantly compensated,” for the tragic death of the pet.

According to reports, a United flight attendant insisted that a dog be placed in the overhead compartment for the entirety of the flight even though it was held in a TSA-approved pet carrier.

Thomas Demetrio, partner at Chicago law firm Corboy & Demetrio, who handled the case of Dr. David Dao, who was dragged from a United Airlines flight a year ago, told MarketWatch in a phone interview that “there’s clearly a legal claim, it’s just a matter of United avoiding that.”

The attorney said United Continental Holdings Inc. the parent of United Airlines, should step up with an out-of-court settlement.

“I think that the compensation should be significant. I really think so. I think this was a very traumatic experience. This dog was effectively murdered right above them,” the attorney said.

He also said that the average flier fears disobeying or questioning crew members.

“People understand much more so after Dr. Dao that you don’t mess with the flight attendant. They rule the world and if there’s controversy they will simply run to the captain” and recommend a removal from the flight, he said.

Demetrio declined to comment on how much Dao received from the airline after his well-publicized incident.

‘I think that the compensation should be significant. I really think so. I think this was a very traumatic experience. This dog was effectively murdered right above them.’ said Thomas Demetrio, partner at Chicago law firm Corboy and Demetrio.

United has since apologized: “We assume full responsibility for this tragedy and express our deepest condolences to the family and are committed to supporting them. We are thoroughly investigating what occurred to prevent this from ever happening again.”

As for the death of the dog, Demetrio explained that he was a dog lover and said “It’s really the opposite of compassion that occurred.”

“I am a dog lover, but even a non-dog lover has to be somewhat amazed that a flight attendant would think it was a good idea that the dog be placed in an overhead bin. It’s United’s obligation to a passenger carrying a dog to use common sense and to supply safety and obviously it failed to supply safety. It was really very poorly handled,” he said.

Shares of United finished the day down 2.6% in Wednesday trade.

Zombywoof
14th Mar 2018, 23:33
the family complied exactly with the carrier's requirements,Did the dog carrier fit under the seat? If it didn't, then it goes in the cargo hold. Those are the rules.

Carbon Bootprint
14th Mar 2018, 23:36
The lawyer for the man who was dragged off a United Airlines flight says family of the dog should be “significantly compensated,” for the tragic death of the pet.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tom Demetrio (conveniently located in Chicago) has based his entire career on suing only United. He probably sees no need to look elsewhere -- as they say, "it's a fertile field to plow." :rolleyes:

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 23:43
Zombywoof, yet again I suggest that you read the full facts.

This was a TSA-compliant pet carrier which would have fitted under the seat.

From ABC13:
The seven-year-old daughter of the woman whose French bulldog died after being forced into an overhead bin by a United Airlines flight attendant is speaking out, saying the United employee lied about what happened during the tragic flight.

“While we were flying, the dog started barking and barking and there was no flight attendants coming. We couldn't stand up because there was a lot of turbulence so we weren't allowed to," Sophia Ceballos, speaking on behalf of her mother, Catalina Robledo, told ABC 13.

Ceballos said that attempts to inform the flight attendant of the severity of the situation during the four-hour flight from Houston’s Bush Intercontinental Airport to New York’s LaGuardia Airport were unsuccessful.

“She said, 'Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know it was a dog. I thought it was a normal bag.' But we told her it was a dog, she's lying,” the teary-eyed girl says in video footage obtained by the outlet.

Zombywoof
14th Mar 2018, 23:48
Zombywoof, yet again I suggest that you read the full facts.You'll excuse me if I don't accept the word of a seven year old with a vested interest as "the facts".

BEagle
14th Mar 2018, 23:53
How about the words of another witness:

Passenger Maggie Gremminger told The New York Times:

“The pet owner was very adamant that she did not want to put the pet carrier up above,” Gremminger said. “She was saying verbally, ‘My dog is in here, no, this is my dog.’ The flight attendant, in response, really just continued to ask her to put it above because it was a hazard where it was, it was a safety emergency, someone could trip.”

Gremminger said that she and her fellow travelers were horrified to learn the animal had died later in the trip, according to People.

“A stranger offered to hold her newborn while she sat on the floor, there in the airplane aisle. She was holding her dog and rocking back and forth. Her daughter was also crying,” she told the publication about the scene following the discovery.

Gremminger further divulged that once Kokito was found dead, the flight attendant became "frazzled" and insisted she did not know there was a live animal in the carrier.

"I want to help this woman and her daughter. They lost their dog because of a United flight attendant. My heart is broken,” she wrote on Twitter, sharing a photo of the family.

"She said, 'Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know it was a dog. I thought it was a normal bag.' But we told her it was a dog, she's lying.”


Also see: United flight attendant who forced dog into overhead bin 'lying,' owner's daughter says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/03/14/dog-dies-on-united-flight-after-flight-attendant-allegedly-forced-passenger-to-put-carrier-in-overhead-bin.html)

Don't you have any compassion for this family and their much-loved French Bulldog puppy?

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 00:00
How about the words of another witness:Your witness verifies the dog was not under the seat.

Was this flight underway or on the ground? If it's on the ground, then the correct action is to present the ultimatum, "the dog goes under the seat or you don't fly".

If it's underway and they have put the dog in the aisle because it was barking, then the correct action is, "I'm sorry but the dog has to go back under the seat".

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 00:05
Don't you have any compassion for this family and their much-loved French Bulldog puppy?Of course I do. I also have compassion for the FA who is being hung out to dry. How do you know it's not the family who is lying, not the FA?

BEagle
15th Mar 2018, 00:10
The FA deserves no sympathy whatsoever. As witnesses have stated, she was told that the carrier held the dog, but insisted that the carrier went into the overhead locker. Quite how anyone can be so dim-witted is beyond me.

Nevertheless, United have admitted that they were wrong, so it will now be a matter for the lawyers to secure the best possible compensation for the grieving family. I hope that they will soon have another French Bulldog to cherish, but it will be a long time before they will be able to overcome their grief over this shocking event.

tdracer
15th Mar 2018, 00:40
Of course I do. I also have compassion for the FA who is being hung out to dry. How do you know it's not the family who is lying, not the FA?

So, the family is lying, the witnesses are lying, everyone is lying except the FA? :ugh: Far more likely the FA didn't think things through, was caught out by the tragic outcome, and is trying to cover her behind.
There are standard dimensions for items intended to fit under the seat (such as pet carriers)- however sometimes the airlines install extra equipment under some seats (IFE is common) and compliant items won't fit. Assuming the reports are correct that this was a compliant pet carrier, but it wouldn't fit under the seat in front (presumably because there was some extra equipment installed there), the FA responsibility is to find a seat that it will fit and rearrange passengers as required. It's no different than the person sitting in exit row seat that isn't willing or able to accept the responsibilities that go with that.
If an airline charged a fee to carry a dog in an on-board pet carrier, they are contractually obligated to do so, and do so without endangering the welfare of the dog.

PaxBritannica
15th Mar 2018, 00:41
UA's specification for pet carriers says:

The recommended maximum dimensions for soft-sided kennels are 18 inches long x 11 inches wide x 11 inches high (46 cm x 28 cm x 28 cm). Soft-sided pet carriers may exceed these dimensions slightly, as they are collapsible and able to conform to under-seat space without blocking the aisle.

This picture of the dog carrier in question looks the right size to me.

https://cdn.mamamia.com.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/14130751/dog-dies-on-flight.jpg

If it didn't fit, there's presumably something wrong with UA's measurements. Or is the 'fits under the seat' assessment left to individual FAs as a judgement call?

I can see that this bag looks similar to normal luggage, but surely FAs are given some instruction on what pet carriers look like?

b1lanc
15th Mar 2018, 00:42
UAL sends a 10 year old German Shepherd headed to KC to Japan instead and swaps that with a Great Dane that was supposed to go to Japan.

And now the DoT is launching an investigation into the death of the puppy.

megan
15th Mar 2018, 01:08
The family deserves the bulk of the sympathyAbsolutely no sympathy at all, given the breed of dog, and place absolutely no blame at the feet of the unfortunate FA embroiled in the aftermath. Sympathy aplenty for the unfortunate animal being owned by people who have no understanding of the breed or its proclivities.

Banned by Many Airlines, These Bulldogs Fly Private - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/nyregion/banned-by-many-airlines-these-bulldogs-fly-private.html)

Airlines have always had varying restrictions on animal travel. There are a few carriers, like Alaska Airlines, Frontier Airlines, Hawaiian Airlines and Sun Country, that still allow brachycephalic breeds to fly in cargo. And most animals are generally allowed to fly in the passenger cabin if they weigh less than 20 pounds, as some French bulldogs and many pugs do.

But the clear trend among commercial airlines is toward an outright ban on brachycephalic breeds.

American Airlines banned brachycephalic breeds of dogs and cats shortly after four bulldogs died on its planes in a three-month period in 2010. Delta stopped accepting French, English and American bulldogs this year, after three bulldogs died from January to March.

United and Continental Airlines, which had two bulldogs die in their care this spring, banned brachycephalic dog breeds from flying during the summer, lifting the restriction on Sept. 16, when temperatures began to drop.

According to the federal Agriculture Department, 189 animals died on commercial flights from June 2005 to June 2011; of those animals, 98 — more than half — were brachycephalic breeds.

The breeds, which also include Persian and Himalayan cats, have smaller openings to their noses and elongated soft palates on the roofs of their mouths, which make breathing more difficult for them, veterinarians said. Those breathing problems can be magnified in stressful situations like air travel, and further exacerbated in extreme heat.

The airlines’ growing no-fly lists have set off a debate between pet owners and veterinarians about whether these dogs should fly at all.

Some veterinarians who have operated on the dogs to open up their nasal passages said that surgery could help somewhat with breathing and perhaps make flying safer. Other veterinarians refuse to sign medical paperwork allowing the dogs to fly in cargo.The reason they are banned is because of the difficulty they have breathing. A 8,000 foot cabin altitude is sure going to help in that regard.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 01:41
The FA deserves no sympathy whatsoever.Ok. Imagine you are the FA. The flight is underway. There is a dog in the aisle. You are responsible for keeping that aisle unobstructed. The people put the dog in the aisle because it was barking when under the seat. (I have some doubts about this story, but anyway...).

So if you make them put the dog back under the seat, which is your duty, the dog will bark and drive everyone nuts. What will you do? That dog has to be removed from the aisle. How will you solve this?

Obviously putting the dog in the overhead bin is unacceptable. You wouldn't do it, I wouldn't do it, and it's hard to believe anyone would do it.

If the flight is still on the ground prior to departure, it's a whole different ball of wax. Again, you are the FA. The dog is in the aisle, and it has to be removed. The people resist. Do you call security and have a mother with two kids removed? Do you try to come up with a way to allow them to stay?

No matter how you slice it, putting the dog in the bin is ridiculous. Nobody is arguing that point. I'm just saying, whether in the air or on the ground, the FA was in a sticky situation. Sometimes under pressure people make bad decisions.

There was another bad decision made here.... the decision of the owner to leave the dog in the bin. If it's me, I'm taking that dog out of there the minute the FA leaves, and if I get any more static about it I'm holding that dog tight and asking for the Capt.

This lady did nothing. Yet she wears a halo while the FA wears devil horns.

tdracer
15th Mar 2018, 01:44
Megan
The question you're avoiding is:
Would the dog have died if it hadn't been placed in a minimally ventilation overhead? Something the FA improperly and in violation of the rules of carriage forced the woman to do?
Ok, the dog breed in question doesn't breath very well - something that placing it sealed inside a minimally ventilated overhead almost certainly made considerably worse.
BTW, just returned from a ski vacation in Breckenridge - altitude 9,600 ft. Pet dogs are very common there - and I saw a couple bulldogs during our visit.

Capt Fathom
15th Mar 2018, 01:52
When you read of all the issues that arise, you have to wonder about the lack of people skills!

I was yelled at by a Flight Attendant (on a flight across the US) when I stood up to retrieve a book from the overhead locker.
Unbeknown to me, one of the pilots had left the flight deck to use the bathroom.
Apparently I was supposed to remain alert for this situation, and also know I wasn't allowed to move a muscle whilst this toilet break took place!

I guess I should be thankful I wasn't put in a headlock and arrested. :uhoh:

armchairpilot94116
15th Mar 2018, 01:58
This is an appalling incident. Absolutely incredulously appalling . United has no leg to stand on and has apologized. There is however nothing that can be done to bring this animal back to life and no remedy to alleviate the tragedy in the eyes of a young girl who will forever remember this tragic occurence.

United should pay a VERY LARGE SUM to the family for their grief and take steps to ensure this does not happen again EVER.

NO dragging passengers off planes who are ticketed and let on board, no putting in pets in overhead bins PERIOD.

The Cabin crew responsible should not only be fired but also should be charged to the full extent of the law allowed for animal cruelty .

Plus she or he is not a very bright or compassionate human being.

Never had a pet of her/his own perhaps.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 02:04
Would the dog have died if it hadn't been placed in a minimally ventilation overhead?We'll never know, will we? Given the stats quoted...

189 animals died on commercial flights from June 2005 to June 2011; of those animals, 98 — more than half — were brachycephalic breeds.

... it's possible being in the bin had nothing to do with the death of the dog. That said, there's no way the dog should have been in the overhead.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 02:19
And about the barking story told by the seven year old... if the dog was barking, everyone around would have heard it, and everyone would know the FA put it in the overhead bin.

Now, given the outrage on display here, are you telling me nobody on that plane took any action? Nobody protested? Nobody took the dog out? Smells like bovine excrement to me.

megan
15th Mar 2018, 02:20
Megan
The question you're avoiding is:
Would the dog have died if it hadn't been placed in a minimally ventilation overhead?Neither you nor I can answer that question. The fact that certain airlines ban their carriage and vets refuse to sign paperwork to allow them to fly should be enough information as to the risks posed. The woman had gone through the necessary process to carry an emotional support animal? If not, I don't see that the condition of carriage allow the animal to be in the cabin.

oleczek
15th Mar 2018, 06:49
Interesting snippet from Lufthansa's website


"The following additional requirement applies to the transport container for the carriage of snub-nosed animals as excess baggage in the air-conditioned cargo hold: the size of the transport container must be chosen so that there is at least a 10-cm distance between the standing animal and the container walls and roof."

Timpsi
15th Mar 2018, 08:32
The regualtions are pretty clear where as the dog should have been in the Cargo Hold or not from the beginning. The FA made the wrong call here, and I doubt that she didn't know there was a dog in the bag.

BUT, it's the owners responsibility to know the breed of the dog and how it behaves and reacts to certain situations. Ultimately, if there was a slightest chance of this going wrong and the dog getting hurt in any way I personally would never take my dog on the flight in the first place. You have a responsibility to feed the dog at home, to take care of it needs and so on - why does this not apply here? The owner is always responisble in the end. If not for the regulations, then atleast for the dogs health and safety...

Avenger
15th Mar 2018, 08:49
It is highly questionable if the dog should have been accepted for travel in the first place. We already know short nosed breeds have issues travelling as cargo, hence they should be Pet in Cabin, having said that, Pugs, Peeks just about fit in the flexible bags under the seat, unless it is a pup, I doubt a French Bull Dog would fit without a loot of squashing and you can't blame the pet for barking. Was the dog shown at check in? or was it on the lead and the staff shown an empty bag? I have personally seen pax moved around so these dog issues can be resolved, but on a full aircraft its tough. In any event, putting a live animal in the OHB is reckless. Quote: "We have learned that the customer did tell the flight attendant that there was a dog in the carrier. However, our flight attendant did not hear or understand her, and did not knowingly place the dog in the overhead bin," United said in the statement. "As we stated, we take full responsibility and are deeply sorry for this tragic accident."
Incidentally, we do not allow pet in cabin and baby to travel in the same row.

BEagle
15th Mar 2018, 08:52
There is no evidence to indicate that the family knew that being forced to put their beloved pet in his carrier in the overhead locker would prove fatal to him.

They probably thought that he would have been uncomfortable, but if they'd had any idea of the risk to his life, they would surely have put up a stronger argument - although that's pretty risky on UA with its record of forcible removals.

That picture of the deceased puppy with his little paw raised in a final pathetic struggle to escape from his incarceration is truly heartbreaking. French Bulldogs suffer separation anxiety more than other breeds and the distress this poor animal suffered was truly appalling.

Maggie Gremminger did a good job in publicising this event to the media.

PaxBritannica
15th Mar 2018, 09:35
It is highly questionable if the dog should have been accepted for travel in the first place. We already know short nosed breeds have issues travelling as cargo, hence they should be Pet in Cabin, having said that, Pugs, Peeks just about fit in the flexible bags under the seat, unless it is a pup, I doubt a French Bull Dog would fit without a loot of squashing and you can't blame the pet for barking. Was the dog shown at check in? or was it on the lead and the staff shown an empty bag? I have personally seen pax moved around so these dog issues can be resolved, but on a full aircraft its tough. In any event, putting a live animal in the OHB is reckless. Quote: "We have learned that the customer did tell the flight attendant that there was a dog in the carrier. However, our flight attendant did not hear or understand her, and did not knowingly place the dog in the overhead bin," United said in the statement. "As we stated, we take full responsibility and are deeply sorry for this tragic accident."
Incidentally, we do not allow pet in cabin and baby to travel in the same row.

I presume that only applies if pet and baby belong to different 'owners'? Not the case here.

I wonder why the FA failed to understand the family's protests about the dog? Was there a comprehension issue, ie the family speaking imperfect English?

As for taking the dog down from the locker - the flight was apparently turbulent (according to the child) which suggests the 'fasten seat belts' sign would still be on. UA's well-known attitude to customer 'service' probably makes many passengers deeply nervous about disobeying.

clareprop
15th Mar 2018, 10:21
In this instance, the airline has accepted responsibility, accepted their member of staff was at fault and accepted they were therefore 100% in the wrong. To therefore continue to suggest on this thread otherwise is absurd.

BEagle
15th Mar 2018, 10:56
I doubt whether the puppy's death was the result of oxygen deprivation, which I agree is unlikely, but separation anxiety, terror and stress probably caused heart failure, poor little chap.

From CBS: Retired airline captain Denny Kelly says the pitch-black overhead bin is dangerous for any live animal.

"There is no circulation at all in there," Kelly said. "They're scared, their heart rate goes up and they use more oxygen. And there's not enough oxygen in the first place, that just makes it worse."

Hadley Rille
15th Mar 2018, 10:56
My main concern is that in the event of an evacuation the requirement to leave all belongings behind will be completely ignored by the pet owners and people would be vying with animals in boxes to escape.
It's a fundamental safety issue.

rog747
15th Mar 2018, 11:04
I doubt whether the puppy's death was the result of oxygen deprivation, which I agree is unlikely, but separation anxiety, terror and stress probably caused heart failure, poor little chap.


totally with you here old chap - you and a few others are about the only ones who has shown much compassion here for either dog and/or family or both

the rest is pure nonsense and half baked theory and wild suppositions

Wonderworld
15th Mar 2018, 11:09
Only animals in the cabin should be seeing eye dogs. All the others AVIH. We don’t have all this drama in Oz thanks to sensible rules.

bront
15th Mar 2018, 11:25
If the pic of the dog carrier next to the pram a few pages back is the actual bag then how the hell was it meant to breath in the first place as I don't see any ventilation holes in it.


A woman with an infant and an 8 year old will come with a heap of hand luggage, nappies, toys etc. so maybe she had already filled the spaces under her and the child's seat and had tried to get away with the dog being in the aisle.


I feel sorry for both the family and the FA but I think the real blame lies with the fact that you can have an animal in the cabin in the first place. Imagine the drama at the escape slide with the pax lining up with dogs, cats, pigs and peacocks (WTF is with that anyway?). I would be pretty p1ssed if I died because of an animal slowing the process down.

BEagle
15th Mar 2018, 11:44
From Flyer Talk:
On Monday night, a 10-month-old French Bulldog puppy died on a United Airlines flight #1284 after a flight attendant forced the dog to spend a three-hour flight from Houston to New York in the overhead bin.

"I want to help this woman and her daughter. They lost their dog because of an United flight attendant. My heart is broken." MaggieGremminger (@MaggieGrem) March 13, 2018

Maggie Gremminger, a passenger on the flight, released this account of the events:

I was in seat 24A, the woman (mother) was 23C, with her young teenage daughter in seat 23B. The mother had a young daughter and a newborn.
I was sitting in the row behind the woman with the dog, and the gentleman next to me witnessed it all as well. We both overheard/saw the interaction between the flight attendant and the passenger.

I witnessed a United flight attendant instruct a woman to put her dog carrier with live dog in an overhead bin. The passenger adamantly pushed back, sharing verbally that her dog was in the bag. The flight attendant continued to ask the passenger to do it, and she eventually complied. By the end of the flight, the dog was dead. The woman was crying in the airplane aisle on the floor. A fellow passenger offered to hold the newborn while the mother was crying on the floor aisle with the dog. it was this out of body experience of grief.

But holy **** I don’t know how the hell this happened. The flight attendant wouldn’t even NEED to hear there was a dog in the carrier. She was right there looking at the TSA approved bag. (The dog carrier is the black on the ground in the photo. It is clearly a carrier with mesh, which makes me question how the flight attendant could say she didn’t know there was a dog)
I feel angry and powerless and regretful. I know clearly this was not an intent of anyone and yet that flight attendant is responsible for this. How were we to know that maybe there wasn’t a new ventilation system in those bins? It’s not our job to know this information.

I understand emotional distress in a different way right now. I can’t get the image out of my head of the woman on the floor of the airplane aisle, crying and holding that sweet dog.

Immediately after the flight landed, myself and another witness stayed to speak with various United employees. The flight attendant denied knowing it was a dog, but the man seated next to me said he heard the flight attendant respond to the passenger “you need to put your dog up here” – therefore admitting that she knew an animal was in there. Additionally, I’ve been in touch with United via private message on Twitter.

They publicly replied asking me to message them – once private messaging them I shared my confirmation # and flight info. They replied:

“We appreciate you reaching out with more information. Please know that we are in contact with the passenger and thank you for bringing this to our attention.”

I also was offered $75 in credit (along with the gentleman witness) for staying and working with them to share our recollection of events. We both refused the credit.

United has released the following statement:

This was a tragic accident that should never have occurred, as pets should never be placed in the overhead bin. We assume full responsibility for this tragedy and express our deepest condolences to the family and are committed to supporting them. We are thoroughly investigating what occurred to prevent this from ever happening again.

This is the second time the airline has been in recent news because of the fate of an animal on one of their flights. Last year, a dog died while being shipped via their PetSafe cargo service.

PDR1
15th Mar 2018, 11:58
Of course I do. I also have compassion for the FA who is being hung out to dry. How do you know it's not the family who is lying, not the FA?

The fact that this allegedly dogless bag barked continuously until it died must have been a bit of a clue, surely? Or are you saying that the typical United FA has the intellect of a 3-day old cheese sandwich?

The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state). So should the captain, because as we are repeatedly told the captain has absolute authority over, and thus absolute responsibility for everything that happens on his/her aeroplane.

And then the family shgould sue the airline, the captain and the FA for the personal pain and suffering resulting from the unlawful torture and execution of their beloved pet. I would assume that the american legal system will award judgements of the order of $500m against each defendant in such a case (based on my extensive study of legal documentaries like LA Law and Suits).

Or is this just another case where the airline and the pilots claim that no matter what happened it was always someone else's fault? I'm amazed so many can pass a class-1 medical despite apparently lacking a spine...

PDR

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 12:05
The fact that this allegedly dogless bag barked continuously until it diedIf that's true, then it was a planeload of idiots. Would you sit there and listen to that dog barking without doing something?

Thud105
15th Mar 2018, 12:13
"I want to help this woman and her daughter. They lost their dog because of an United flight attendant. My heart is broken." MaggieGremminger (@MaggieGrem).

Can't help but feel that its a shame that MaggieGremminger (who by her own admission was in the row behind) sat there for three hours and did nothing. Sometimes, if you're not prepared to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 12:24
Can't help but feel that its a shame that MaggieGremminger (who by her own admission was in the row behind) sat there for three hours and did nothing. Sometimes, if you're not prepared to be part of the solution then you are part of the problem.Exactly. Not to mention the rest of the pax. Cowards the lot of them.

Carbon Bootprint
15th Mar 2018, 12:29
The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state).I won't predict what the outcome might be, but in any case the incident is being investigated by the Harris County DA's office. And United will require brightly colored tags on all bags containing pets.
HOUSTON, Texas (KTRK) -- The Harris County Animal Cruelty Task Force is investigating the death of a dog on a recent flight from Houston.

The District Attorney's Office told Eyewitness News they could file charges based on the findings of the investigation.

Complete story here (with video) (http://abc13.com/animal-cruelty-task-force-investigating-dog-death-on-united/3217225/)

Lonewolf_50
15th Mar 2018, 12:47
When you read of all the issues that arise, you have to wonder about the lack of people skills!

I was yelled at by a Flight Attendant (on a flight across the US) when I stood up to retrieve a book from the overhead locker.
Unbeknown to me, one of the pilots had left the flight deck to use the bathroom.
Apparently I was supposed to remain alert for this situation, and also know I wasn't allowed to move a muscle whilst this toilet break took place! I avoid situations like this by not travelling by air unless I utterly must. Your experience isn't unique.

Gauges and Dials
15th Mar 2018, 15:02
Exactly. Not to mention the rest of the pax. Cowards the lot of them.

Shall we review again the pictures of Dr. Dao being dragged off a flight with a concussion and broken teeth? Passengers feeling intimidated and cowed by UAL is not exactly irrational.

Gauges and Dials
15th Mar 2018, 15:06
Absolutely no sympathy at all, given the breed of dog

Isn't it reasonable to assume that if an airline offers to the market, "bring X on the plane" as a service for sale, it's the airline's job to understanding what kinds of X can and cannot be safely transported, and making that clear? Where do you expect the expertise to reside, regarding what kinds of cargo, live or otherwise, can safely be carried: with the airline or with the shipper? Some other airlines have specified that certain breeds of dogs cannot safely fly and do not allow them. United chose to not make such a distinction, took this customer's money, and grossly failed to provide the service for which they were paid.

Gauges and Dials
15th Mar 2018, 15:11
The woman had gone through the necessary process to carry an emotional support animal? If not, I don't see that the condition of carriage allow the animal to be in the cabin.

Then you're simply not reading the news articles. The dog was not carrried as an "emotional support animal," the dog was carried under United's "bring your pet for $125" commercial offering.

Straight from the horse's mouth at United's published terms:

United allows domesticated cats, dogs, rabbits and household birds (excluding cockatoos) to travel accompanied in the aircraft cabin on most flights within the U.S. An in-cabin pet may be carried in addition to a carry-on bag and is subject to a $125 service charge each way. There is an additional $125 service charge for each stopover of more than four hours within the U.S. or more than 24 hours outside of the U.S.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 18:50
Straight from the horse's mouth at United's published terms:Too bad you didn't quote the next paragraph:

A pet traveling in cabin must be carried in an approved hard-sided or soft-sided kennel. The kennel must fit completely under the seat in front of the customer and remain there at all times.

United chose to not make such a distinction, took this customer's money, and grossly failed to provide the service for which they were paid.Completely false. They boarded the dog. It was the customer's responsibility to place the dog under the seat and leave it there. For whatever reason, the owner refused to do this and placed the dog in the aisle, thereby violating the conditions of carriage.

BEagle
15th Mar 2018, 19:08
Zombywoof, your ridiculous posts are either through sheer ignorance or deliberate trolling:

...the owner refused to do this...

There is NO evidence to support that comment.

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 19:15
There is NO evidence to support that comment.Wasn't it you who posted the statement of a witness that the dog was in the aisle?

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 19:24
Yes..and a moron who can't be bothered to read the facts as they've been shown about five times. Which bit of 'we accept full responsibility' can't you get your thick head around?The FACTS are that the dog was supposed to be under the seat, and if it was where it was supposed to be this thread wouldn't exist.

As for "we accept full responsibility", what do you expect them to say after worldwide publicity? Damage control.

The owner has responsibility here, whether you want to admit it or not.

strake
15th Mar 2018, 19:28
+1 for Clareprop

Zombywoof
15th Mar 2018, 19:33
I expect this entire ad hominem exchange to be deleted shortly, so let me just sum up the thread:

Bad, bad UAL.
Bad, bad FA.
Dog owner= candidate for sainthood.

Is that about right?

PaxBritannica
15th Mar 2018, 21:13
If the pic of the dog carrier next to the pram a few pages back is the actual bag then how the hell was it meant to breath in the first place as I don't see any ventilation holes in it.


A woman with an infant and an 8 year old will come with a heap of hand luggage, nappies, toys etc. so maybe she had already filled the spaces under her and the child's seat and had tried to get away with the dog being in the aisle.


I feel sorry for both the family and the FA but I think the real blame lies with the fact that you can have an animal in the cabin in the first place. Imagine the drama at the escape slide with the pax lining up with dogs, cats, pigs and peacocks (WTF is with that anyway?). I would be pretty p1ssed if I died because of an animal slowing the process down.

A small amount of research shows that the soft pet carrier, airline approved is:

http://thumbs4.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mccC1Zwn2CqcFBX2ysQ0W9g.jpg
or
http://www.wilko.com/content/ebiz/wilkinsonplus/invt/0313616/0313616_m2.jpg

Clearly these carriers are ventilated.

The passenger would have had access to both her own seat space and her daughter's. If the spaces were filled with other baggage, it's obvious that the other stuff should have gone in the overhead locker, not the dog. I doubt very much that the dog was the passenger's first choice.

Pizzacake
16th Mar 2018, 19:58
The fact that this allegedly dogless bag barked continuously until it died must have been a bit of a clue, surely? Or are you saying that the typical United FA has the intellect of a 3-day old cheese sandwich?

The FA should be arrested, prosecuted and jailed for animal cruelty (or whatever the colonial equivilent is in that state). So should the captain, because as we are repeatedly told the captain has absolute authority over, and thus absolute responsibility for everything that happens on his/her aeroplane.

And then the family shgould sue the airline, the captain and the FA for the personal pain and suffering resulting from the unlawful torture and execution of their beloved pet. I would assume that the american legal system will award judgements of the order of $500m against each defendant in such a case (based on my extensive study of legal documentaries like LA Law and Suits).

Or is this just another case where the airline and the pilots claim that no matter what happened it was always someone else's fault? I'm amazed so many can pass a class-1 medical despite apparently lacking a spine...

PDR

Ooorrr the owner of the dog could accept responsibilty for trying to fly with a breed of dog that is by and large banned from most airlines and about 20 seconds research into the breed would advise that due to its compromised airways it shouldn’t be on the plane.
It breaks my heart that a dog was stuffed in an overhead locker, it’s not right, but if the dog shouldn’t have been on the plane in the first place, the owner has to shoulder some blame.

BEagle
16th Mar 2018, 20:38
United Airlines does not stipulate limitations on the carriage of brachycephalic dogs such as Frenchies. His carriage was fully within the airline's terms.

I doubt whether the owners knew about the health risk to their puppy posed by flying. Modern airliners fly with a greater cabin pressure than those of earlier generations, so cabin altitude is likely to pose less of a risk than hitherto.

The agony and fear suffered by this poor little dog before he gave up his struggle for life must have been truly horrific. The family would have been traumatised and perhaps even the FA might have been shocked when she realised what her cruelty had caused, but neither suffered the fate of that poor defenceless little animal.

I hope that there's someone with a big enough heart in the USA who will offer a new French Bulldog puppy to that distraught young girl.

PaxBritannica
16th Mar 2018, 20:58
Does anyone have stats on the number of pets who die in flight while travelling in the cabin?

Perhaps I'm wildly adrift of the facts, but I imagine most of the deaths that do occur, happen when the animal is in the hold, alone and unmonitored.

cargosales
16th Mar 2018, 22:26
Isn't it reasonable to assume that if an airline offers to the market, "bring X on the plane" as a service for sale, it's the airline's job to understanding what kinds of X can and cannot be safely transported, and making that clear? Where do you expect the expertise to reside, regarding what kinds of cargo, live or otherwise, can safely be carried: with the airline or with the shipper? Some other airlines have specified that certain breeds of dogs cannot safely fly and do not allow them. United chose to not make such a distinction, took this customer's money, and grossly failed to provide the service for which they were paid.

Bingo. Or they could even go the extra mile with customers pets:

slight thread drift but IIRC, many, many years ago an airline, which one I can't remember, brought into LGW (I think) a large Alsatian in a crate.. Just they'd lost the paperwork .. and no-one knew who the dog belonged to so they couldn't contact them.

The dog was extremely unfriendly and couldn't even be approached, let alone allowed out of the crate, so couldn't be given any exercise until someone remembered that 'old Fred' was 'good with dogs'. And Fred came over, made friends with the dog and even managed to take it out for walks on the airfield.

A few days later a guy turned up and said "Hi, I'm here to collect my Siberian wolf" ...

evansb
16th Mar 2018, 23:27
The doggy, a breed with physically restricted nasal passages, was clearly stressed by being alone in a dark environment, but hypoxia or asphyxia is a relatively painless way to go. There was a gradual loss of oxygen. You pass out and expire. It is not like physical suffocation, such as strangling, or even drowning for that matter. Who knew the overhead compartments were air-tight anyway ? Or are they not air-tight ?
And if they are air-tight, why ?
https://i.imgur.com/tYHw8nI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ceFKkGc.jpg

Turbine D
16th Mar 2018, 23:35
Well, since a second dog was placed on the wrong United Airlines aircraft this week and the an unscheduled landing was made in Akron, Ohio to save the day. Maybe United Airlines needs to check animals in like humans, boarding pass, etc. :sad:

Carbon Bootprint
17th Mar 2018, 01:14
Who knew the overhead compartments were air-tight anyway ? Or are they not air-tight ?
And if they are air-tight, why ?I think it’s been established they are not airtight, and there’s no reason for them to be. But if if you’ve flown recently — especially in cattle class — you may have noticed the bins are packed to the gills, as has been noted in numerous previous posts. The typical approved pet carrier is likely to have its vents compromised in such a situation, regardless of the breed of animal.

Nice archive photos, BTW. But the sprog is not exactly cooped up in the bin with a shed load of pax carryons, is it? Simpler times, for sure. But back then, people had to pay real money to fly, or so I’m told. :)

b1lanc
17th Mar 2018, 02:16
Well, since a second dog was placed on the wrong United Airlines aircraft this week and the an unscheduled landing was made in Akron, Ohio to save the day. Maybe United Airlines needs to check animals in like humans, boarding pass, etc. :sad:
I see a movie coming - IRGO - Flight to Nowhere!

GotTheTshirt
17th Mar 2018, 10:50
Cargo sales,
When my dog came into Gatwick in a cargo crate moons ago it could only be picked up by the Quarantine company. I went to the cargo shed to just check everything was OK to be greeted by shouts from the cargo guys on the top of boxes telling to look out there was a loose dog !!!
I put him back in the repaired crate and waited under an oath of sworn secrecy !! for the quarantine company to arrive.

Carbon Bootprint
17th Mar 2018, 16:09
I see a movie coming - IRGO - Flight to Nowhere!Actually, Irgo was the German Shepherd who wound up in Japan instead of the intended destination of Kansas. So, I would suggest the film be titled "Irgo: Tokyo Drift." :8

Alternately, it could be called "Irgo, we're not in Kansas any more..."

Dairyground
18th Mar 2018, 16:12
I have seen no mention of where the family was seated. Were they in an exit or bulkhead row where everything, whether or not it contains an animal, has to go in an overhead?


Since the dog was of a breed with known respiratory inadequacy, would it have died anyway due to the increased cabin altitude?


Should the parent be condemned for buying the chid a toy from one of those mis-bred breeds?

PaxBritannica
18th Mar 2018, 16:41
I have seen no mention of where the family was seated. Were they in an exit or bulkhead row where everything, whether or not it contains an animal, has to go in an overhead?


Since the dog was of a breed with known respiratory inadequacy, would it have died anyway due to the increased cabin altitude?


Should the parent be condemned for buying the chid a toy from one of those mis-bred breeds?

Many airlines I've flown with are fussy about who goes in exit rows - no kids or anyone who looks like they couldn't open the emergency door. This family was travelling with a child, a baby and a dog. I can't imagine a group less suited to the exit row. Presumably UA wouldn't have been dumb enough to seat them there?

edi_local
18th Mar 2018, 16:46
This is an appalling incident. Absolutely incredulously appalling . United has no leg to stand on and has apologized. There is however nothing that can be done to bring this animal back to life and no remedy to alleviate the tragedy in the eyes of a young girl who will forever remember this tragic occurence.

United should pay a VERY LARGE SUM to the family for their grief and take steps to ensure this does not happen again EVER.

NO dragging passengers off planes who are ticketed and let on board, no putting in pets in overhead bins PERIOD.

The Cabin crew responsible should not only be fired but also should be charged to the full extent of the law allowed for animal cruelty .

Plus she or he is not a very bright or compassionate human being.

Never had a pet of her/his own perhaps.

Just out of interest, what good would a VERY LARGE SUM do?

The dog is dead, no amount of money will bring it back. What amount of money would make the people feel better? Millions? Surely that is over the top for a dead dog, even if the carrier was at fault.

While we are placing blame, should the FA be held fully responsible? If the dog breed was not meant to fly then the family themselves share some of that blame, as does the check in agent who accepted the dog, as does the gate agent who boarded the passengers too. To pin all this on one person, although typical of today's ridiculous name, blame and shame (and eventually claim) culture, is wrong.

But in the USA money seems to make it all go away.

BEagle
18th Mar 2018, 17:40
Although many bracycephalic breeds such as Frenchies have been over bred irresponsibly by greedy backyard breeders due to their popularity amongst celebrities, it should not be assumed that breathing issues affect animals bought from a reputable breeder.

There is no evidence to suggest that Kokito suffered from significant breathing issues; videos show him to have been a healthy, happy and playful little chap rather than a dog who suffered from such problems.

He was not 'a toy from one of those mis-bred breeds', as Dairyground suggests, he was a much-loved member of the family. He is more likely to have died from deprivation anxiety and stress than from lack of oxygen.

Personally I consider that Sr. Oscar Munoz himself should go and see Catalina Robledo and offer to provide Sophia Ceballas with another French Bulldog puppy - from a reputable breeder.

armchairpilot94116
18th Mar 2018, 23:43
Just out of interest, what good would a VERY LARGE SUM do?

The dog is dead, no amount of money will bring it back. What amount of money would make the people feel better? Millions? Surely that is over the top for a dead dog, even if the carrier was at fault.

While we are placing blame, should the FA be held fully responsible? If the dog breed was not meant to fly then the family themselves share some of that blame, as does the check in agent who accepted the dog, as does the gate agent who boarded the passengers too. To pin all this on one person, although typical of today's ridiculous name, blame and shame (and eventually claim) culture, is wrong.

But in the USA money seems to make it all go away.

A large sum will go a long ways towards PREVENTION of a similar incident. Because MONEY talks.

I am glad UA diverted a recent flight to a dog's destination. They did this to avert more bad publicity.

I hope they gave everyone onboard a free flight for their inconvenience.

Something that is troubling is that there seems no chain of command on an UA aircraft. Should an FA not refer to a Chief Purser or Senior Purser (CX speak) about this and not just make a decision on her/his own?

We are not out to demonize UA. Just to demonize airlines who make mistakes in the hope that mistakes can be minimized.

I don't think it should be millions for the dead dog but UA's offer of a refund of tickets and the $125 dollar fee for the dog's carriage as well as (get this ! ) a necropsy is clearly inadequate in my simple mind.

megan
19th Mar 2018, 06:09
United Airlines does not stipulate limitations on the carriage of brachycephalic dogs such as Frenchies. His carriage was fully within the airline's terms.

I doubt whether the owners knew about the health risk to their puppy posed by flying.United had banned carriage during summer for brachycephalic animals, and reinstated carriage in September I think it was. Heaven forbid a passenger being allowed to exercise a freedom and not knowing the risks being accepted, grab me a lawyer, it's somebodies fault, I can't possibly accept responsibility myself. That the owners possibly didn't know about the breeds medical issues is an indictment on a lot of pet owners who just purchase a fashion item or a toy for the kids because its cute. Breathing problems are endemic in the breed and not a result of backyard breeders. More often than not many require operations to enable them to breath. Read the following for some of the problems the breed has, they can't even reproduce without intervention - artificial insemination and cesarean birth being the norm.

donotdespisethesnake
19th Mar 2018, 07:58
Without assigning blame, if you care about dogs or cats, don't own or encourage ownership of brachycephalic breeds.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jan/05/think-twice-about-buying-squashed-faced-breeds-vets-urge-dog-lovers

Now the British Veterinary Association (BVA) has launched a campaign dubbed #breedtobreathe to draw attention to the issues, revealing that a new survey of 671 vets found 75% of owners were unaware of the health problems of brachycephalic breeds before they chose their squashed-faced dog. Moreover the vets said just 10% of owners could spot health problems related to such breeds, with many thinking that problems including snorting were “normal” for such dogs. https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaigns-and-policy/policy/companion-animals/brachycephalic-dogs/

In the past ten years there has been a rapid rise in the number of brachycephalic breeds in the UK. BVA is concerned that this rise in numbers is leading to a population-based increase of ill health and compromised welfare in these breed types.
These problems include:


Anatomical defects of the upper airway causing breathing difficulties often associated with overheating, sleep apnoea and regurgitation eg. Brachycephalic Obstructive Airway Syndrome (BOAS) (https://www.vet.cam.ac.uk/boas/about-boas/recognition-diagnosis)
Eye disease
Inability to mate or give birth naturally (requiring Caesarean section)
Repeated skin infections
Dental problems

infrequentflyer789
19th Mar 2018, 10:53
Although many bracycephalic breeds such as Frenchies have been over bred irresponsibly by greedy backyard breeders due to their popularity amongst celebrities, it should not be assumed that breathing issues affect animals bought from a reputable breeder.


The medical issues affect the breed as a whole, not just some specimens. The rate of cesarean births for this breed is over 80%, and many of them can't mate naturally either - they would rapidly die out without constant human intervention.

Vets make good money out of owners of breeds like this, but even they are campaigning against them now. It is a matter of debate whether "a reputable breeder" of such breeds can even exist.


There is no evidence to suggest that Kokito suffered from significant breathing issues; videos show him to have been a healthy, happy and playful little chap rather than a dog who suffered from such problems.


Not sure I know any vet who would diagnose (or confirm lack of) breathing, heart, or other brachycephalic problems from a video - would be interesting, and very useful, if such a service exists...


He was not 'a toy from one of those mis-bred breeds',


He was definitely from "one of those mis-bred breeds".


as Dairyground suggests, he was a much-loved member of the family. He is more likely to have died from deprivation anxiety and stress than from lack of oxygen.


Actually I'd put some money on heat stroke. The breed (and brachycephalic dogs in general) are known to have problems controlling body temperature. Pretty sure there is no aircon in the overhead lockers, confined in such a small space pretty much any mammal will start to overheat, most will then sweat but not dogs, dogs will open their mouths wide and stick their long tongues out to cool down. Unless they've been bred so that they can't, in which case they will just die.

DirtyProp
19th Mar 2018, 12:41
A large sum will go a long ways towards PREVENTION of a similar incident. Because MONEY talks.



So the issue is not the emotional damage to the dog owner, but money.
What a surprise.
A large sum will also line the pockets of the law firm representing the dog owner, but that's just a minor detail.

Gauges and Dials
19th Mar 2018, 16:54
So the issue is not the emotional damage to the dog owner, but money.
What a surprise.


Money is the calculus by which corporate entities evaluate decisions, policies, and practices. To the extent that failing to screen out crew who mistreat passengers starts costing them money, the airline will change its practices.


A large sum will also line the pockets of the law firm representing the dog owner, but that's just a minor detail.

Yes, that's how society compensates private entities like law firms for stepping up and taking care of matters that the regulators have failed to address.

atpcliff
19th Mar 2018, 17:00
UAL, in a press release, said that all UAL crewmembers are trained that no animals are to ever be put in overhead bins. The "points guy", a frequent flyer webpage, says that animals will die if left in the overhead bin.

(UAL) This was a tragic accident that should never have occurred, as pets should never be placed in the overhead bin. We assume full responsibility for this tragedy and express our deepest condolences to the family and are committed to supporting them. We are thoroughly investigating what occurred to prevent this from ever happening again.

(the points guy) While the bin is pressurized, there’s no air circulation in the bins as there’s no expectation for a living animal to be placed inside.

Since then, UAL mixed up two dogs, and sent the dog bound for Wichita, Kansas, to Japan, and vice versa. UAL flew the dog in Japan back to Wichita on a private jet.

Next, UAL diverted a flight, because it mistakenly had a dog on it...the plane was diverted to where the dog was supposed to be going, and then the plane flew on to the original destination.

UAL has a new policy where all live animals' crate/luggage will have a specially coloured tag on it indicating it is a live animal.

armchairpilot94116
19th Mar 2018, 17:30
UAL, in a press release, said that all UAL crewmembers are trained that no animals are to ever be put in overhead bins. The "points guy", a frequent flyer webpage, says that animals will die if left in the overhead bin.





Since then, UAL mixed up two dogs, and sent the dog bound for Wichita, Kansas, to Japan, and vice versa. UAL flew the dog in Japan back to Wichita on a private jet.

Next, UAL diverted a flight, because it mistakenly had a dog on it...the plane was diverted to where the dog was supposed to be going, and then the plane flew on to the original destination.

UAL has a new policy where all live animals' crate/luggage will have a specially coloured tag on it indicating it is a live animal.

Bravo to UNited for doing the right thing. NOw if the threat of monetary punishment was not there. Imagine them doing the right thing? I can't.
Corporations are all about money as essentially rightly pointed out by a previous poster.

It is ALL about the money. They do the wrong thing and it COSTS them? They will do the right thing. Otherwise? Fuggitabout it.

Lonewolf_50
19th Mar 2018, 17:41
UAL has a new policy where all live animals' crate/luggage will have a specially coloured tag on it indicating it is a live animal. I am pretty sure that very few passengers will pay to ship a dead animal.

edi_local
19th Mar 2018, 18:16
A large sum will go a long ways towards PREVENTION of a similar incident. Because MONEY talks.

I am glad UA diverted a recent flight to a dog's destination. They did this to avert more bad publicity.

I hope they gave everyone onboard a free flight for their inconvenience.

Something that is troubling is that there seems no chain of command on an UA aircraft. Should an FA not refer to a Chief Purser or Senior Purser (CX speak) about this and not just make a decision on her/his own?

We are not out to demonize UA. Just to demonize airlines who make mistakes in the hope that mistakes can be minimized.

I don't think it should be millions for the dead dog but UA's offer of a refund of tickets and the $125 dollar fee for the dog's carriage as well as (get this ! ) a necropsy is clearly inadequate in my simple mind.

I think you are out to demonize UA. A free flight for a divert that would add what, about an hour to the flight time, if that? You'll not get a free flight for an hour delay on UA under normal circumstances, even if it was their fault.

The compensation is completely acceptable in my non sensationalist mind.

For the record I completely disagree that a VERY LARGE SUM will prevent this happening again. VERY LARGE SUMS are paid out by airlines every year for EU compensation money. Even on an individual basis people claim hundreds for tickets that cost barely half the amount. That doesn't deter cancellations, delays or oversales one bit.

DirtyProp
19th Mar 2018, 20:30
Money is the calculus by which corporate entities evaluate decisions, policies, and practices.

Same definition is applicable to those law firms for stepping up and taking care of matters that the regulators have failed to address.
No profit to be made = no stepping up.


Yes, that's how society compensates private entities like law firms for stepping up and taking care of matters that the regulators have failed to address.

I guess we can all forget about serving and administrating justice then.
Corporate greed = bad.
Lawyer's greed = good.
Funny, isn't it?

BEagle
19th Mar 2018, 22:42
And now, only a few days after UA killed little Kokito, we learn that UA crew have been making tasteless jokes about 'dogs in the overheads' within ear shot of paying customers - see United Crew Allegedly Jokes About Dogs in Overheads After Scandal | PEOPLE.com (http://people.com/pets/graham-mctavish-says-united-airlines-employees-jokes-about-dog-in-overhead-bin/) .

:mad::mad:

armchairpilot94116
20th Mar 2018, 00:11
A Doggone good job United ! IRgo got to fly back not just in any private jet but United's own corporate jet. Which probably had to be sent special for him. This can only come from the TOP.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/16/us/united-flight-dog-returns-home/index.html

I remain troubled why there was no chain of command on the flight with the dog in the over head bin? The FA should have referred the loading issue to her superior, two heads are better than one in most cases. And if they both decided the dog needs to be in the overhead bin then two heads can roll.

costalpilot
23rd Mar 2018, 23:04
you know, this world would be a much better place if humans weren't so weird.

a lot of things go through my mind as I peruse the pages of this thread. My Dad was a early WW2 era commercial pilot for National Airlines and he had a old National employee periodical which included a story about a flight with an en-route stop, an aging, matronly passenger, her cat and an irascible old mechanic/engineer-- which turned out to be a volatile mix. As it happened the matronly passenger was traveling with her prized show-quality feline that was unfortunately required by National policy to be carried in the heated, pressurized baggage compartment below, much to her masters distress. The passenger was not about to proceed without protest, and did so unabashedly and constantly, until, at the intermediate stop, the FA begged the aging mechanic/engineer to look in on the feline in the baggage compartment. Being irascible. old and ornery, the engineer wasn't anxious to help, and only did so to get the FA off his back. The anxious owner waited at her seat. The mechanic eventually showed up alongside, took the frozen feline out of a bag, slammed it against the chair rail, and asked "Is this your CAT." Apparently an inadvertent, undiscovered pressure leak had occurred in the compartment below during the previous leg.:sad:

I read it in the employee magazine. There was a crude pencil drawing of the scene.

Carbon Bootprint
3rd May 2018, 21:52
Not much a surprise, but local news today reports official autopsy showed the dog died of suffocation in the overhead bin. Probably also not a surprise -- United will now ban carriage of 20 breeds of dogs known to have breathing problems, like the French Bulldog involved in this incident.

ExXB
4th May 2018, 09:10
I struggle to understand why these dogs (with breathing problems) are so popular. And why breeders intentially create the problem.

Of course United shouldn’t have insisted the dog go in the locker. That was stupid. But not as stupid as the dog owner not knowing, or not caring, that taking their pet onto an aircraft wasn’t the smartest thing to do.