How unhealthy is flying/Being a Commercial Pilot? [Archive]

meatlover

12th Mar 2018, 12:37

Good day to all.

I know that the question is quite vague, and depends on individual lifestyle.
As a health conscious, younger guy recently entering into the word of aviation and flying, I am curious how bad it is all in all if one manages to try to have a good balance.

The flying at ungodly hours can be hectic, but there are plenty of other jobs that require you to also have horrible shifts, etc. Sleep can be caught up on, but I am wondering how bad the overall Job can be, and how bad of a toll can it take on the body.

I have not been flying nearly as long as the guys on here, but have noticed that there are 2 types of guys for the most part.
Either the health conscious Pilot, the ones that look very good for their age, that leads a balanced life, make sure to exercise(even if not excessively), and then you have the guy that does not care about what he eats, never works out, smokes like a chimney, looks years beyond his age, and simply does not care for his health too much.

As a health conscious guy, and a guy that likes to take care of himself, I am wondering if flying can take a toll on you and age you years beyond your days, as well as cause health issues, even if you lead a balanced, healthy life, and made sure to catch up on sleep, and eat well.
It may be a sort of unusual question or worry for some, but I am an athlete, have always lead a healthy lifestyle, looked younger for my age, taken care of myself, and I would like to hear insight from the guys that can relate.

Thank you.

Capt Scribble

12th Mar 2018, 13:12

There could be books written on the subject, so I shall only make a few points as I am sure that there will be many others. Sitting for many hours on end can not be healthy, I am in my 60s and continue jogging in the hope of mitigating some of the damage. The main stress of the job is the constantly changing shift patterns. The traditional shift worker does a week of earlies then afternoons and nights so that they can get some sort of sleep pattern. The standard UK charter goes for a few earlies, maybe an afternoon flight, followed by a night or two. That is all in one week and there is no way you can adapt to that pattern. Your sleep will be messed up good and proper and I have never understood why we do it this way. Its slightly different on the LH circuit but the same results. Not too much you can do apart from try and make the best of it but I think that there is research to say that this is not a healthy lifestyle.

framer

12th Mar 2018, 13:12

but there are plenty of other jobs that require you to also have horrible shifts, etc.
What are they? I’m sure you’re probably right but I’d be interested to know what other jobs have you starting at 6pm on Monday and finishing 12 hours later after two 3.5 hour sectors, then having one day off before starting at 5 am ( 3 am alarm) and doing another 12 hour Duty. Then on Saturday starting at 2pm for another 12 hour day, having another single day off before starting at 5 am again ( 3 am alarm) etc etc etc.
Most shift workers I can think of do a week of earlies, a week of mids then a week of lates , not this job. The duties are so random that after a month you feel rubbish, after a year you are worn out, and after a decade you have health problems.
I feel like an old man and I run 20 miles a week and am not really that old.
I’m working it so I can get out and keep the house simply so I can meet grand childeren when they come.
Edited to say that Scribble posted at the same time.

FAStoat

12th Mar 2018, 13:23

The Flying game is a very strange place.Some can cope just topping up the Alc% level well into their 80s!Others from the same era,who never drank much,and played squash and or Rugby,left passed away in their 50s.You just cant put a number on it,but todays glass cockpit flying offices,are equivalent to several mobile phones strapped to your head for hours on end!!You can never forget,no matter how the CAA view it,that there are noxious,not to say poisonous,fumes emanating from bleed air pressurising and air/con the cabin/cockpit.I lose many friends/colleagues every year from different forms of the dreadful disease well before they should.Most of the older generation could adjust to differing cicadian rhythms in sleep patterns,from day/night and back,but not for long.Long nights can be killers,then driving home especially after a prolonged roster period.Nevertheless I would not have missed it for the world,but would have second thoughts flying todays machines!!!

nord121

12th Mar 2018, 13:36

What are they? I’m sure you’re probably right but I’d be interested to know what other jobs have you starting at 6pm on Monday and finishing 12 hours later after two 3.5 hour sectors, then having one day off before starting at 5 am ( 3 am alarm) and doing another 12 hour Duty. Then on Saturday starting at 2pm for another 12 hour day, having another single day off before starting at 5 am again ( 3 am alarm) etc etc etc.
.

Merchant Navy Officer,

I work 3months on 3 Months off, 12 hours a day when on operations (subsea) can sometimes be midnight to midday or midday to midnight depending on circumstances (changing often) when not on operations i work 4 hours on 8 hours off (normally 8-12/20-00). This sounds fairly routine however then you have to factor everything else into it. Jet lag from flying too your ship, the fact your ship is moving constantly you cannot guarantee a good night sleep but you are a watchkeeper so need to be on watch regardless, drills; fire, abandon, oil spill etc do not come under your working hours and if the drills are taking place during your rest hours your rest will be interrupted. At the moment there are 8 mandatory drills to do each month, so thats a few hours out your 12 hours rest 8 days a month. Then there is arrivals and departures, the whole bridge team needs to be on standby regardless of if you have just finished or are about to start watch (usually a nice 4am arrival) and of course inspections and surveys that happen once a month. Thats not to mention the personal inspections you have to carry out yourself outside of working hours.

Thats just my example, we are regulated by things such as MLC under the ILO however its often said that the Shipping industry is 10-15 years behind aviation in terms of safety etc.

wheelbarrow

12th Mar 2018, 14:15

I guess we all know that it's a pretty unhealthy occupation, when I started the average life expectancy after retirement was less than 5 years!
You could give up smoking, drinking, women, do hours of exercise every day, go to bed by 9pm for a healthy lifestyle. Will this make you live longer? I don't know, but it sure as hell will feel like it!

galaxy flyer

12th Mar 2018, 14:16

Life is tough on your body. As an old Lt Col said, “you pays your money, take your chances”. No one gets out alive.

GF

Check Airman

12th Mar 2018, 14:21

The changing schedules are one factor. Two other big ones are
1. Irregular schedules, which can make it difficult to find time to exercise.

2. Airport food. Not terrible if you travel every once in a while, but when you've got xx minutes between flights, and you need xx+1 minutes to do what you have to do, it's a lot easier to get a burger and fries right next to your gate, than looking around the airport for something healthier.

fireflybob

12th Mar 2018, 14:53

I recently finished reading "Why We Sleep" which is sobering read including the long term health hazards of repeated sleep disruption - I highly recommend it to anyone involved in safety critical industries such as airline flying.

The author states (backed up by evidence) that we are now living in a sleep deprived society for many different reasons. In particular the sleep which is missed is typically the last 2 hours of a 7/8 hour sleep where individuals have to wake up to an alarm clock (for example for early work duties). This last two hours is in fact the most important part of a night's sleep. During sleep we go through several cycles of non REM and REM sleep which are all essential especially from a health standpoint. The length of REM sleep increases with each cycle so if you miss the last 2 hours you're missing out in a proportionately higher way.

The author also mentions the difficulty he has when talking to CEOs etc of companies and convincing them (with proof) that sleep deprived employees are less likely to be productive etc.

Why We Sleep

Another factor worth mentioning is that before the requirement for flight deck doors to be locked it was quite common for pilots to get out the seat to stretch their legs every now and again and even walk down the back to talk to the passengers. Now they are virtually imprisoned on the flight deck.

Also consider this from a pure financial point of view. In the early 1980s when flying for a leading charter airline we worked out that if we lost one pilot (whether due failed medical or moving to another employer) it cost the company around £20,000 to replace him/her with another pilot in terms of having to have adequate training staff and infrastructure etc. I wonder in today's money what the equivalent amount would be although I am aware that the odd loco makes a "profit" on their training "machine".

Finally, slightly off thread but interesting to note that the circadian rhythm of adolescents is about 2/3 hours different from adults. So when you have difficulty getting your teenager out of bed in the morning it's simply because for various reasons nature has programmed them for a different circadian rhythm. Many mental health conditions such as schizophrenia start in adolescence and the author suggests this is caused by insufficient sleep and that school times should be adjusted for this age group (e.g. start at 1000, finish at 1900) for this reason. School start times have become progressively earlier with many children having to wake at 0600 or even earlier to catch the school bus for early school start times and/or "breakfast clubs". I'd just finished reading this section of the book and switched the news on to hear about the shooting at a school in Florida which got me thinking! You have to read the book to read some compelling evidence on how mental health issues can be tracked back to repeated sleep disruption. There are also ramifications for sleep deprived aircrew and their long term mental health, I believe.

snooky

12th Mar 2018, 16:04

There is a long thread about organophosphate poisoning elsewhere on pprune https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/506344-toxic-cabin-air.html
I believe that unless you spend your career on the 787 or at Easyjet there is a distinct possibility this will ruin your health.

750XL

12th Mar 2018, 16:56

I'm sure a lot of people who live back in the real world working every hour god sends to barely even make ends meat would kill to work even the 'worst' pilots shifts.

Just have a look at some of the Amazon warehouse workers, and they're the lucky ones

Or, Merchant Navy workers. If you're lucky you get to do 12 hours on 12 hours off, every single day, for 3 months straight. Or if you're Philippino, you do that for 2 years straight before getting 3 months off to see your family - then repeat.

If you're really unlucky, you get stuck on a vessel which does 6's.... ie, 6 hours on, 6 hours off, repeat for months on end. Never more than 6 hours sleep in a single go

nord121

12th Mar 2018, 17:08

Baz657

12th Mar 2018, 18:48

My sister-in-law was a FA for 30 years, starting at PanAm. She had to retire a few years earlier than the wanted as she was diagnosed with cancer. While there is no concrete proof all her medical bills have been paid from airline insurance funds so don't forget the possible extra radiation you can possibly get over the years at altitude.

meatlover

12th Mar 2018, 21:06

Thank you all for the responses, truly appreciate the insight.
I do realise that there is no way to have a job like this without it effecting our health negatively.
The idea is simply to try and minimise these "risks".
I quit smoking 1 year ago. When I realised how tired my body would be from all the flying, time differences, sleep deprivation, I concluded that I could not have an addiction that will further make things worse.

I've flown plenty of guys in their 50s, some early 60s that are very active, are very healthy, and look very young for their age, and it didnt surprise me that these were always the guys that didn't smoke, ate healthier, and tried hard to compensate for the tough work environment. And the opposite was also true with young and unhealthy guys.

A TRE I flew with many times during my training who realised that I am an athlete(who happens to be a professional athlete himself), was a guy that I picked up a lot of these habits from. As a young guy, I did not care about these things before he started speaking to me about them.
Just like I am now, he was always cautious of his habits, and watching and asking him/talking about how he dealt with it has taught me a lot.

He always(as much as possible) got his own meals, he would drink tons of water, minimal coffee as much as possible, he would use sunscreen to protect his skin from the ageing effects of radiation, and again it was really no surprise that he looked a good 10 years or so younger than his age.

I appreciate your comments a ton. It's always nice learning from others that have been in the same situation.
I understand that some guys have the mindset that this is a silly thing to worry about, but for the guys that do put an active effort to be extra cautious, its always nice to learn from likeminded guys.

meatlover

12th Mar 2018, 21:11

What are they? I’m sure you’re probably right but I’d be interested to know what other jobs have you starting at 6pm on Monday and finishing 12 hours later after two 3.5 hour sectors, then having one day off before starting at 5 am ( 3 am alarm) and doing another 12 hour Duty. Then on Saturday starting at 2pm for another 12 hour day, having another single day off before starting at 5 am again ( 3 am alarm) etc etc etc.
Most shift workers I can think of do a week of earlies, a week of mids then a week of lates , not this job. The duties are so random that after a month you feel rubbish, after a year you are worn out, and after a decade you have health problems.
I feel like an old man and I run 20 miles a week and am not really that old.
I’m working it so I can get out and keep the house simply so I can meet grand childeren when they come.
Edited to say that Scribble posted at the same time.

You are absolutely right in that it is not as inconsistent as our job, however nurses have pretty bad shifts where I live. Lots of medical specialists as well work all nighters and are very often sleep deprived.

On a professional level, almost all of my friends that are investment bankers, or consultants, or auditors, especially the ones that are doing very well, these guys sleep probably 3-5 hours a day on weekdays.
They work 14-15 hour shifts, they bring work home with them, they often work on weekends, and they wish that sleep deprivation was their only "struggle".

framer

12th Mar 2018, 22:00

I agree nurses and young doctors have terrible rosters and are expected to work silly hours.
I’m not so sure about the professionals you mention, I have three neighbours, a lawyer, an accountant, and a mechanical Engineer. They all have 9-5 jobs , bring a bit of work home sometimes, and take each and every weekend and bank holiday off. Their sleep patterns are constant unless they all jump in the spa pool together on a Friday night .
The MN sounds terrible, one thing I would point out though is that with 3 months on 3 months off you do get to recover. I am finding that after ten years of unstable rosters that chop and change from late to early then back again, when I get a week or maybe two weeks off I am only just starting to recover before I am back into it again.
I love the actual flying but am working through my plan to get to the financial state where I can change jobs without it impacting the wife and kids too much purely because of ‘efficient rostering’. I would love to do 85 hours of lates or 85 hours of earlies a month rather than 75 hours of chop and change but the software doesn’t like it so it won’t happen.
Good question anyway Meatlover, good luck with your quest to stay on top of it.
I’m not sure of your age or if you have children but keep in mind that when you hit 40 and have kids a lot more is asked of you. It isn’t a case of finishing work and flopping onto the couch to watch Netflix or tootling off to the gym to work on your personal well-being, but you might already know that.
Cheers,
Framer

underfire

13th Mar 2018, 00:02

Well, look at the air you are breathing...

I see to remember something about the radiation exposure, much less shielding and much more exposure from the suns harmful radiation?

For this reason, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) classifies airline crewmembers as radiation workers.

In fact, the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements reported in 2009 that aircrews have, on average, the highest yearly dose of radiation out of all radiation-exposed workers in the US.

http://www.businessinsider.com/airplane-flight-cosmic-radiation-exposure-altitude-2015-11

Even the FAA is on it...

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/aeromedical/radiobiology/

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/aeromedical/radiobiology/cari7/

Basil

13th Mar 2018, 00:16

No-one I know has had contaminated air problems.
Moderate lifestyle, don't smoke, eat sensibly, go running, use the hotel gym. If you don't find longhaul to your liking fly shorthaul.
Pretty simple, really.

wiggy

13th Mar 2018, 07:26

Pretty much what basil said...it’s a case of balance.

A lot can depend on your particular set of T&Cs, contracts, rostering etc, and a lot is down to personal choice. I do think some individuals get so obsessed with lifestyle and health issues that they are going to worry themselves into health problems.

vapilot2004

13th Mar 2018, 08:47

There are worse jobs out there that can lead to an early death or poor health. The biggest contribution to your health you can make is taking care of yourself. Avoid stress, try to get your body's optimum sleep each night (6-9 hours), eat plenty of vegetables and fruits, minimize carbohydrates and processed foods, exercise regularly, and drink... lots of water, not so much coffee and keep the alcohol consumption within reason.

Do screen yourself for skin cancer regularly. For whatever reason, our group seems to be at a higher risk of melanoma. Some think its caused by exposure to ionizing radiation, due to high altitude flight and operations in high latitudes.

Basil

14th Mar 2018, 07:38

There are worse jobs out there that can lead to an early death or poor health.
I'll drink (moderately ;)) to that.
Age 16: came v close to machine tool entering back of head and removing face (which part, TBH, I wouldn't have felt).
Age 19: stepped out of marine Diesel crankcase just as engineer on other side of engine blew it over on starting air.

blind pew

14th Mar 2018, 08:55

In the 80s I tried to stop our company from extending retirement age to 58 and got a bunch of mortality figures. The only surprising bit was that long haul was statistically healthier than short haul legacy.
I have had a host of illness, often being told that it was psychosomatic purely because they didn't find the cause.
My first lot was in the 70s when I was given a week to live. I believe this was aerotoxic syndrome due to several significant smoke incidents. For the first time I was told I was a nervous pilot and should resign.
My second lot was probally due to Salmonella from Karachi but never confirmed. I collapsed after landing in Jeddah.
My third lot lasted 18 months and was only cured by a double dose of the strongest sulphonomide which made me allergic to the drug. A 23 year old hostess on my crew died. At a guess it was a bacterial lung infection from a west African pax. Again I was told that it was psychosomatic.
The next four years was relatively healthy until I went onto the DC10. Two lots of malaria, a year of diarrhoea passing blood much of the time, extended visits to tropical diseases, stress ECG with a resus team in case my ticker stopped. Lots of special diets and back to the psychosomatic cop out.Migraines on extra long flights.
Given a special return to short haul and then command. Things got better especially as I took a couple of months unpaid leave a year but after a head injury and breakdown I lost my license.
At the time of my problems on the DC10 we had a lot of loss of licenses due to mental health and several crew members with stroke symptoms. Another few died from brain tumours and heart attacks.
My views.
I believe both of my major problems were due to neurotoxins. The first from air conditioning smoke and the second Larium but I'm not ruling out aerotoxic.
A lot of our passengers were from exotic destinations and brought with them exotic bacteria, it is not very different to east London where one of my grand children is in and out of hospital with unknown chest problems.
So we sit in a tube breathing in exhaled air from all over the world although if you fly loco you don't have that problem.
My long haul migraines stopped except when I flew flights of more than five hours mainly around 13,000ft in the alps without oxygen. Our dc10 air quality was a particular problem because most of our crossings were way north and polar plus our engineers would turn off packs to save fuel.
My loss of license was due to depression but I have lost my short term memory and senses of taste and smell. I have permanent tinitus as well as a personality change.I stopped airline flying 22 years ago and after 7 years felt confident enough to instruct on gliders which I did for 8 years but felt that in my late 50s I was starting to make small mistakes so quit. The type of gliding I did was far more challenging than airline work. I now paraglide, again very challenging. I 've flown 4,000 hours plus since I lost my license and generally my health has improved. My short term memory slightly in spite of increasing age (68). I am now celiac, which I think I have been for a long time. This was diagnosed three years ago after an overdose of cortisone (motorcycle race track injury). My bowel movements are now more normal than at any time since 1975.I have had a minor blood disorder for a decade which they don't know the cause which I ignore after all I've got to die from something.
To sum up. It depends on the routes,company, aircraft, maintenance, genes and luck. You won't find anyone admitting the dodgy aircraft, oils, drugs and radiation.

Basil

14th Mar 2018, 11:03

It depends on the routes,company, aircraft, maintenance, genes and luck.
Sounds reasonable but, first of all, truly sorry to read of your difficulties.
"I was told I was a nervous pilot" Me too, esp with route checker sitting in. ;)
"due to Salmonella" Seen stewardess's husband with that. Not great!
"the second Larium" Which had a bit of a reputation. In the end, I just sprayed and covered up at night.
"our passengers were from exotic destinations and brought with them exotic bacteria" Could be but I've been lucky.
"I have permanent tinitus" Had that for years - must start using it as an excuse for not always hearing Mrs Bas very well.
" instruct on gliders" Crossed my mind to instruct powered but thought better of permitting stude to kill me when, following many years of trying, I'd failed to do so myself.
"motorcycle race track" Oh, come on now! You should be dead already" ;)
"which they don't know the cause " Yes, had that diagnosis. The bleeders don't know everything.
Anyway, you're still here and good luck!

blind pew

14th Mar 2018, 22:30

Although my second bout of malaria was caught on the North Atlantic, the aircraft had come out of DAR and the CC hadn't sprayed it.
Larium..case action going on in Ireland which was already banned in germany in the mid 80s due to side effects.
Took an enhanced pension till 65..quite a shock to outlive both mine and my wife's last two male generations

vapilot2004

15th Mar 2018, 00:45

I'll drink (moderately ) to that.

:)

I raise my glass to you, Basil, for surviving your youthful endeavors in manual labor.

Basil

15th Mar 2018, 08:13

:)

I raise my glass to you, Basil, for surviving your youthful endeavors in manual labor.
Manuel Libor is lying; I never touched him!! :}

GlenQuagmire

15th Mar 2018, 11:19

its pretty bloody unhealthy here - my top tip is don't get a job in Beijing..

KayPam

15th Mar 2018, 11:33

The author also mentions the difficulty he has when talking to CEOs etc of companies and convincing them (with proof) that sleep deprived employees are less likely to be productive etc.

How stupid can they be...

On the other hand, it's not too surprising because the CEO of my company (small airline manufacturer) strongly believes there is and will be a pilot shortage ...

Finally, slightly off thread but interesting to note that the circadian rhythm of adolescents is about 2/3 hours different from adults. So when you have difficulty getting your teenager out of bed in the morning it's simply because for various reasons nature has programmed them for a different circadian rhythm. Many mental health conditions such as schizophrenia start in adolescence and the author suggests this is caused by insufficient sleep and that school times should be adjusted for this age group (e.g. start at 1000, finish at 1900) for this reason. School start times have become progressively earlier with many children having to wake at 0600 or even earlier to catch the school bus for early school start times and/or "breakfast clubs". I'd just finished reading this section of the book and switched the news on to hear about the shooting at a school in Florida which got me thinking! You have to read the book to read some compelling evidence on how mental health issues can be tracked back to repeated sleep disruption. There are also ramifications for sleep deprived aircrew and their long term mental health, I believe.
If only you had been minister of education when I was in school...

BluSdUp

15th Mar 2018, 14:51

Go part time on early shift! Natural circadian ( Sun down , go to bed , Up before the birds fart!
Lots of flying and a stable roster.
5 on 13 off love it!

Private jet

15th Mar 2018, 16:19

There was a study done of aircrew about 20 years ago now I think, but maybe a bit more, and at that time the data showed that professional pilots had a higher than average life expectancy. Not by much, a year or two but it was above average. The longest lived of all were the flight engineers, who lived a bit longer than the pilots. Of course its all average mean values and no predictor of an individuals longevity. Also what the results would be for the current cadre nobody will know for many years to come as it is obviously based on retrospective data (i.e death)

misd-agin

16th Mar 2018, 00:50

blind pew

16th Mar 2018, 08:19

Maybe a comparison with the professional classes would be more relevant after all we are amongst the top 2% earners, retired at 55 and had excellent medical benefits.

vapilot2004

16th Mar 2018, 19:14

Manuel Libor is lying; I never touched him!! :}

:D

What about Juanita Dinero?

AerocatS2A

17th Mar 2018, 01:50

Better life expectancy could be partly due to medical requirements. People with significant health issues are excluded from being a pilot in the first place and regular medical checkups means a pilot would be more likely to have a developing health problem identified early compared to someone who only ever sees the doctor when they're feeling poorly.

macdo

17th Mar 2018, 17:31

More of the guys that I have seen retire over the last 10 years are dead than alive. Purely my anecdotal experience, but it is altering my plans, and I will go before 65 and am already part time. Having done many years of SH and LH, I find LH kinder to live with in spite of the timezone changes. I suspect that the younger pilots who are health aware and look after themselves will find the benefits negatively balanced by the rigours of modern rostering patterns.

PyroPet

17th Mar 2018, 18:47

Just chipping in with a few points in no special order of importance/severity.

1.
Irregular work hours resulting in abnormal sleep patterns which in turn leads to less and worse quality of sleep. Series of early starts, late endings or even all nighters. Even worse when in combination with a normal family life. Can be mitigated quite a lot with good rostering (fatigue management).
2.
Dry air (3% humidity in your average airliner). Resulting in dehydration, dry eyes, dry skin etc.
3.
Sitting for long periods. Can result in tight hips/hip flexors, rolled shoulders and a host of others negative effects. No option for a standing desk in this office.
4.
Radiation. More in higher altitudes and latitudes (ie. polar)
5.
Noise in the cockpit (different between acft types, newer jets generally quiet)
6.
Irregular meal times. Usually eaten off a tray on your lap.

Murmur

18th Mar 2018, 12:59

I am now celiac, which I think I have been for a long time.

Hi there,

I have a case of celiac disease in my family, so it's something I have quite a bit of knowledge about. Celiac disease can bring, on the long term, all kinds of the most diverse symptoms, from bowels up to the mind. Reading your account, I suspect, as you said, that you had it for a long time, and that it played a part on many of your past issues, probably compounded by the undeniably stressing and not-very-healthy life of an airline pilot.

In any case, having it diagnosed and treated now, is the important part. Good luck for your life! :-)

Check Airman

18th Mar 2018, 19:57

RAT 5

18th Mar 2018, 20:26

All the replies come from pilots. Don't forget to ask the wives & girl friends. They are involved as well.

Vokes55

18th Mar 2018, 20:53

I'm a firm believer that the majority of premature illnesses are caused by one thing. Stress.

The best advice I can give is don't get stressed or annoyed during the day to day operation. Delays happen, weather could be bad, handling could be incompetent. If you're on the Saturday night Rhodes, is there any point stressing about a five minute delay on departure due to a lack of ground staff? You're not going to see your bed until 7am anyway.

The rest is just a part of the career we've chosen. Is it really more unhealthy to sit in the left seat of a jet on shift patterns, whilst earning six figures, compared to sitting in traffic for 1-2 hours per day to sit in an office doing a job you probably don't care about for less than half? A lot of pilots, particularly those on legacy contracts, simply can't relate to the stresses and strains of a 'normal' job on a 'normal' salary, struggling to make ends meet and putting food on the table for the family. This, to me, is far more damaging to one's health than the physical stresses and strains of our profession.

Of course, a lot depends on the airline and operation you've signed up to. If I had to do another 30 years of high intensity low cost short haul flying in its current form, I wouldn't expect to make it to retirement.

blind pew

18th Mar 2018, 21:43

Thanks.
I had various food allergies especially on the death cruiser. The food allergies were manageable until I had an overdose of cortisone injections administered by a French doctor which brought on the gluten allergy.
Sure stress forms part of it..mine was the physical side of it..once I really knew how to fly and didn't have to deal with too many ar@rseholes especially the funny hand shake brigade I found the job great fun.
A few years after I lost my license I flew an 8 hour plus flight in an overloaded glider with the CofG behind the aft datem. Except for hardly being able to walk (I often lock my body using the rudder pedals in turbulence after being knocked semi conscious in the alps) I had no stomach problems. Real stress is flying a paragliding comp in South Africa in mad conditions and hearing the comp director pleading for a rescuer to continue trying to resus a guy I had taken breakfast with. Had a lot of f@@k what do I do now moments especially instructing winching with a 7.2 V8 at the end of 1km length of wire.
My digestion was never a problem then.
Nor was it coastal sailing in sometimes appauling conditions for hours on end.
I still push myself physically, climbing mountains with 20 kgs on my back but it's rare that I can remain for more than an hour and a half flying ..pure fatigue after all I'm 68..very little illness now I don't work and a lot of my travelling is hours in a car.
It narrows it down to commercial flying, what I am breathing, eating away from home, medication (larium) and contacts with Johnnie foreigners diseases.

flash8

19th Mar 2018, 00:24

I left my last Airline job (and my second) back in early 2006 after a period of depression.. never was diagnosed.. but things came to a head one day and I quit. Although I don't remember most of the days of 2006 and can remember that one and in retrospect wasn't myself for a long time before... nobody reached out... probably didn't realize.

I say quit... I just walked out which wasn't ideal as I then had some pay dispute with the airline who were basically blackmailing me in terms of a reference... so had to pay back many thousands, but they paid for the T/R....

Many of my former colleagues have left flying altogether since, some younger, some older than me, but in the end you only have one life and do you want to spend it all at the pointy end/commuting/down route?

Sometimes have regrets. but then imagine where I would have been now, and much of that regret fades.

I am also a lot healthier now... hate to think how I would be now if that stress continued for years.

evansb

19th Mar 2018, 00:34

Vokes55 said "Stress". Let us examine stress. Good stress or bad stress? A suspension bridge needs stress. You must mean undue stress. Elements such as random demands, unrealistic goals and irritating stimuli is a prescription for "stress". Jobs where you have little if any control are inherently "stressful". Stress is necessary for counter effort to take place, and therefore an accomplishment of sorts, i.e. work will take place. Stress is like friction, as friction is necessary to conquer a hill. Things that happen to you that are beyond your control are indeed stressful. Even a surprise birthday party and a lottery windfall are "stressful". It is good stress, but it is "stress" just the same. Your heart and endocrine system may not know the difference between good and bad "stress".. NASA's Space Lab observed ants in zero gravity become apathetic and their legs atrophy due to a lack of "stress". They have no hill to build.

Anilv

19th Mar 2018, 06:06

re radiation due to high altitude flying.

In the 90s some airlines started issuing radiation exposure badges to the crews, I know Fedex had them, but this has not spread to the other airlines.

Was there a study made? I would imagine it would be easy to compile data based on the amount of exposure on the returned badges.

Anilv

blind pew

19th Mar 2018, 10:29

Lufthansa union did a study in the 80s but after the initial results the company stopped it.
Flew with a Swiss guy who had his own meter and we generally flew lower than planned..sod the fuel.
Ifalpa did a study around the same time but management removed the copies within a couple of days.
Later we were restricted on polar flights and number of high altitude crossings.

wiggy

19th Mar 2018, 10:44

There have been umpteen studies done on radiation, there is ongoing work...there is plenty of stuff out there in the public domain but you need to know the subject to know what to Google.... That said the data and conclusions as to the effects of radiation exposure at cruise levels (mainly derived from the epidemology) can appear somewhat inconvenient to some....which is perhaps you'll often hear stories about results being hidden or buried becasue that suits some narratives...but the truth is "out there".....

If you want to track your own exposure you can, using this...

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/aeromedical/radiobiology/cari6/

We can also access our own personal data via our company webiste, and if so minded cross check it by running your own flight profiles through your very own CARI or similar programs....

In the 90s some airlines started issuing radiation exposure badges to the crews, I know Fedex had them, but this has not spread to the other airlines.

As I heard it the reason for the badges was the cargo Fedex (potentially) carried..and on the subject of badges certainly the older film badges didn't really give much of a clue as to total exposure at the sort of levels we get in cruising flight due to Cosmic and other radiation ( hence the development of programs such as CARI in it's various iterations).

I'm sure flying for a living has it's consequences, I suspect mainly due to rostering, sleep patterns, diet, lack of exercise...some of this is down to individual control, some of it goes "with the territory"....some ill health is down to the genes ( been there, done that, got the scars) . Now whether everybody here wants to loose sleep worrying about whether this job is going to let you live forever is down to the individual but beyond avoiding the obvious and lobbying (via a union, if you have one) I don't see the point in fretting about the subject... I'm sure there are health consequences to other jobs, e.g. working at heights as a builder, working as a policeman, or commuting into/out of or around e.g. London on a daily basis....without belittling the possible impact of this job there problems associated with other lines of work and we perhaps need to look at the whole deal and do a bit of cost v. benefits analysis.

mustangsally

19th Mar 2018, 17:45

Every career has its health hazard. Even the seamstress getting stabbed by a dirty needle and thread. In the sixties, when pilots had to retire at 60 in the US, there was a study that the average life expectancy after retirement was THREE years. Smoke, drink and have another kilo of beef life style. My first multi crew airplane, I was the only non-smoker. Two guys up front chain smoking from gear up to landing flaps. Walking 50 feet from the aircraft a lighting up and waiting for transport to the hotel for another round of drinks and steaks.

As a side note, I would often entertain myself by cleaning all the glass gauges. Wondered why the little whippy was always coming off yellow. Then, oh, that's the same color coming out the pressure valve back on the tail, yellow nicotine.

As the career progress, I'd always bid trips that departed about 10 in the morning, fly about two or three legs, each day and be home three days latter before dinner.

Actually the most dangerous part was driving on the express way, to and from the airport.

KayPam

19th Mar 2018, 21:14

Many of my former colleagues have left flying altogether since, some younger, some older than me, but in the end you only have one life and do you want to spend it all at the pointy end/commuting/down route?

Why the h*ck would you commute ?
The vast majority of people with desk jobs who happen to change their place of work... they move out to their new town and wouldn't even think about commuting several hundreds of kilometers.

wiggy

20th Mar 2018, 07:56

Mustangsally - very much agree with your observations about how it was “back in the day”.

My first multi crew airplane, I was the only non-smoker. Two guys up front chain smoking from gear up to landing flaps. Walking 50 feet from the aircraft a lighting up and waiting for transport to the hotel for another round of drinks and steaks

Much the same here....vividly remember on one Africa trip a pair of chain smokers (the captain and the flight engineer) sitting in a cloud of cigarette smoke over a meal, sinking their n’th scotch whilst at the same time being very vocal about the risks of this job and how work was going to impact on their longevity.....and of course as for the radiation worries, well let’s say they weren’t worried enough to wear either hats or sunscreen for their round of golf the next day :\

Don’t get me wrong, It is good we are better informed these days, but there’s a danger of perhaps being overly obsessive.

vapilot2004

20th Mar 2018, 08:30

I was once given a radiation rule of thumb but cannot recall the exact figure, but for some reason 1 millirem per 1,000 miles comes to mind.

wiggy

20th Mar 2018, 09:06

That might indeed be a “rule of thumb” but it’s coarse at best.

FWIW when I spent a year logging this a typical Europe to Eastern USA flight was “worth” typically 50 -60 micro sieverts, west coast US into Europe over Hudson’s Bay might be 80 plus on a bad day, but it was highly highly dependant on flight levels used , magnetic latitudes and the Sun’s output on the day ( and as an aside FWIW during solar max our exposure to cosmic rays is reduced, though we may be more exposed to the Sun’s own products, so it is all very much non linear).

CARI factors the above in it’s calculations, and a full time, full “spectrum” measuring device might be even more useful.....so it’s fairly straightforward to get a rough handle on the amount we get exposed to....but as for effects on health, well as a doc said to me a while back about the incidence of a particular cancer, and I paraphrase, “like most cancers it’s more than likely down to your relatives rather than your job...”.

misd-agin

20th Mar 2018, 15:45

I was once given a radiation rule of thumb but cannot recall the exact figure, but for some reason 1 millirem per 1,000 miles comes to mind.

That’s a worthless rule of thumb if it doesn’t include latitude and altitude.

The altitude difference to achieve the same exposure rates at the equator and northern hemisphere flights is 10,000 - 15,000’.

misd-agin

20th Mar 2018, 15:58

Pilots live longer than their non pilot peers.

Cancer death risk is up slightly. Roughly 1%.

Marrying the wrong person probably is a greater health risk. Worrying about stuff outside of your control probably is a greater health risk.

Wiggy wrote - “There have been umpteen studies done on radiation, there is ongoing work...there is plenty of stuff out there in the public domain but you need to know the subject to know what to Google.... That said the data and conclusions as to the effects of radiation exposure at cruise levels (mainly derived from the epidemology) can appear somewhat inconvenient to some....which is perhaps you'll often hear stories about results being hidden or buried becasue that suits some narratives...but the truth is "out there".....

If you want to track your own exposure you can, using this...

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/re...biology/cari6/

We can also access our own personal data via our company webiste, and if so minded cross check it by running your own flight profiles through your very own CARI or similar programs....”

#######

The radiation risk is relatively low. Study after study shows that. Not zero, but low. And the studies show increased longevity but the possibility of an increased risk of death from 2-3 different cancers. Keep in mind no one gets off the ship alive.

If you want to help your longevity avoid sweating over things beyond your control, worrying about falsehoods, or having people pray for you when you’re sick. But do get a dog, or two.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html)

Dog ownership = 10% less heart attack risk, better mobility, etc.