Turkish (private) jet down in Iran

[Fly.Buy]

A few news agencies are reporting that a Turkish private jet has crashed in Iran, between 11-20 people feared dead. Routed Sharjah to Istanbul. Operator and type of aircraft not known at moment.

[gjp737]

Here a link

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201803111062418935-turkish-plane-crash-iran/

[Airbubba]

Possibly a Challenger 604, registration TC-TRB.

[Airbubba]

Turkish media reports that the plane belonged to businessman Huseyin Basaran.

Basaran's daughter Mina was supposedly onboard with some friends after a bachelorette party for her in the UAE.

Social media postings in this article from the Turkish media:

https://www.sozcu.com.tr/2018/dunya/bekarliga-veda-partisinden-donuyordu-2280844/?utm_source=szc&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=ilgilihaber

[Chronus]

According to Turkish press reports, the owner`s daughter was returning from a hen party in Dubai and all on board were female, including an all female flight crew. The aircraft, a Challanger, crashed in mountainous terrain in SW Iran.

[CaptainProp]

Very sad story.... Quite unusual with jets crashing from cruise level, cabin decompression?

CP

[Chronus]

A number of foreign news agencies are reporting that according to witnesses in the vicinity of the crash, the aircraft was seen coming down in flames.

[Tu.114]

This is not exactly unheard of in witness reports of other accidents, and usually unrelated to reality. May be that there is some confirmation bias involved.

[Airbubba]

Flightradar24 was able to find altitude (but not position) data for the flight.

Looks like level flight at FL360 possibly followed by some sort of upset.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/972887776818532353

[FIRESYSOK]

Flightradar24 was able to find altitude (but not position) data for the flight.

Looks like level flight at FL360 possibly followed by some sort of upset.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/972887776818532353

Upset, or emergency descent below the grid MORA. Looks fairly steady

[jack11111]

What is the data column just to the left of the altitude?

[AN2 Driver]

The Iranian CAO has published a first news in Persian. (https://www.cao.ir/news/organizatioal/detail?public_content=23669&title=%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B9%D9%8A%D9%87)

Google translate:
On the afternoon of Sunday, 20/12/1396, a Challenger 60 jet airliner, registered in Turkey, registered TC-TRB from the Sharjah airport in the United Arab Emirates to the Atatürk airport in Istanbul, in the UT430 air route, fades off the radar plate And collapsed in the Zagros Mountains surrounding Shahrekord.

This flight arrived in the Islamic Republic of Iran at 16:59 local time and suffered an accident at around 18:09 local time. According to the pilots of the pilot with the control center of the country, the pilot asked for a drop in height due to a technical problem, which during the reduction of height of 32 thousand feet, while the speed dropped, disappeared from the radar screen. According to information received by the Turkish company, it has 3 crew members and eight passengers. The nationality of two Spanish passengers and the rest of the citizens are Turkish nationals. The cooperation between the two Iranian and Turkish civil aviation organizations has been initiated from the early hours of the accident investigation and the coordination of the search and rescue by the Civil Aviation Organization. Responsibility for the accident investigation is in accordance with international regulations with the Iranian Civil Aviation Organization, and the countries of the Republic of Turkey, as airplanes and the Canadian Aircraft Designer and Manufacturer, can apply for assistance in the accident investigation process in accordance with the Chicago Convention and its appendices.

[5 APUs captain]

A year before..... https://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3

[Fly.Buy]

Black box now recovered, unfortunately no surviours. Picture of wreckage on mountain here:

Turkey's crashed plane still in flames (http://www.irna.ir/en/News/82859162)

[andrasz]

Picture of wreckage on mountain here:
Turkey's crashed plane still in flames (http://www.irna.ir/en/News/82859162)

The picture is that of a Boeing Vertol (probably a CH-47) NOT the accident aircraft.

[Fly.Buy]

The picture is that of a Boeing Vertol (probably a CH-47) NOT the accident aircraft.

Well spotted andrasz !!
Obviously the publication is using some sort of stock photo then.

[JB LFPN FLYER]

Real photos of the crash site can be seen here :( https://www.yenisafak.com/dunya/irandaki-kazaya-ait-ilk-goruntuler-ortaya-cikti-3177446


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYExBkYX0AAnaLH.jpg:large

https://image.piri.net/resim/upload/2018/03/12/11/21/236e25c35aa6363c7af50739d48f2c1b.jpg

[Kulverstukas]

The Iranian Red Crescent Organization (IRCS) reported that it sent 10 rescue teams to the site of the crash of a Turkish private aircraft shortly after the incident.
The black box of a private Turkish passenger aircraft was found on Monday.
Search teams faced difficulties in reaching the place, because it was a mountainous region.
Local residents of the region found 8 bodies of 11 people aboard the aircraft in the Durk region of Anari Kiyar.
According to the Turkish media, the pilot in his last contact with the control demanded an urgent landing after the departure of the aircraft, and this request was registered.

[JB LFPN FLYER]

Here is a link to the latest pictures of the crash site and the rescue operations .

https://www.ilnanews.com/%D8%A8%D8%AE%D8%B4-%D8%B9%DA%A9%D8%B3-14/603423-%D8%B3%D9%82%D9%88%D8%B7-%D9%87%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%BE%DB%8C%D9%85%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D8%AA%D8%B1%DA%A9%DB%8C%D9%87-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AA-%DA%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%AE%D8%AA%DB%8C%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C

[Fliegenmong]

Oh dear....that is a real mess.....not much of anything left at all....

[andrasz]

Looking at the state of the engines it appears that neither were producing power at time of impact. Also the fairly large intact fuselage pieces suggest a relatively low speed.

[olster]

Speculation can be unwise. However, I wonder if this could be a A380 wake encounter in RVSM airspace. I had one in a b737 some years ago and for a moment the aircraft was uncontrollable. Either way, rip to the victims.

[lomapaseo]

Looking at the state of the engines it appears that neither were producing power at time of impact. Also the fairly large intact fuselage pieces suggest a relatively low speed.

That also can be what happens when the downstream (away from terrain) engines dislodge and hit tailpipe first and stop the fan.

Reading the tea leaves gives a clue about how it hit,not why it hit

[Airbubba]

Speculation can be unwise. However, I wonder if this could be a A380 wake encounter in RVSM airspace. I had one in a b737 some years ago and for a moment the aircraft was uncontrollable. Either way, rip to the victims.

The only A380 I see passing the area of the crash around the time of the mishap is UAE37V (aka EK216) going opposite direction on UP574 at FL390. However they passed at 1407Z and according to the FR24 data TC-TRB was level at FL360 until something happened after 1430Z.

Also, I'm thinking that TC-TRB was probably on UT430, not UP574 from reports of the crash site location.

[Chronus]

Quote from Kulverstukas post:
"According to the Turkish media, the pilot in his last contact with the control demanded an urgent landing after the departure of the aircraft, and this request was registered. "

According to the press reports I have read, the crew reported technical problems and requested a descent. It was shortly thereafter that a loss of speed, rapid descent and loss from radar seems to have ocurred.
Reading the version posted by Kulver, it does not seem to read quite right. In as much that an urgent landing was requested after departure. They were in the cruise, an hour or more into the flight, when the accident took place. Perhaps this is due to linguistics.

[AN2 Driver]

According to the Turkish media, the pilot in his last contact with the control demanded an urgent landing after the departure of the aircraft, and this request was registered.

Does not correspond to the Iranian Statement I quoted above.

They were in cruise and asked to descend, whereafter the radar contact was lost at FL320.

[AN2 Driver]

Also, I'm thinking that TC-TRB was probably on UT430, not UP574 from reports of the crash site location.

It was, as was confirmed by the Iranian Authorities.

[atakacs]

FWIW PAX where these young ladies

http://www.20min.ch/images/content/2/6/5/26577286/16/1.jpg

back from a hen party in Dubai...

[Avenger]

Local sources are saying the pilot initially requested a climb to FL360 then made some comments about being low on fuel, subsequently requested descent to FL340 and then a rapid descent occurred with communication to FL120 thereafter the rest is history. There is a lot of speculation, however, the lack of coms tends to suggest some sort of pilot incapacitation and locals apparently reported seeing a jet "spinning " i,e stalled. We may never learn the real cause, very sad for such a happy event to end in this manner.

[lomapaseo]

the lack of coms tends to suggest some sort of pilot incapacitation and locals apparently reported seeing a jet "spinning " i,e stalled. We may never learn the real cause, very sad for such a happy event to end in this manner.

This sure sounds speculative without an aviation source of facts

[jack11111]

Perhaps there will be some passenger mobile phone video.

[Anvaldra]

Some colleagues flew there that day and experienced very unstable atmosphere which caused speed shift, beyond the limitation in certain cases

[Fly.Buy]

Not sure where this allegation came from :
Iran denies rejecting permission for emergency landing for crashed Turkish jet (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/iran-denies-rejecting-permission-for-emergency-landing-for-crashed-turkish-jet-128675)

[SRS]

Some years ago a Pinnicle CRJ suffered engine rotor lock by trying to fly too high. Both engines shut down and could not be restarted. The resulting dead stick landing was fatal. I don't know if the engines came from the same family or if a fix was made for the problem.

[butterfly68]

Are there any news about the black boxes? Usually the FDR is readable almost immediately...any local news about it? To drop out of the sky during cruise is so strange..smoke in the cabin? You start the descent, call the atc but then you cannot see anything anymore...it is just a thought of course.

[JB LFPN FLYER]

Does anybody know why Canadian TSB did not comment or issue any kind of statement regarding this accident ? :rolleyes:

[Chronus]

Some colleagues flew there that day and experienced very unstable atmosphere which caused speed shift, beyond the limitation in certain cases

Had it not been for the press reports that the crew had reported technical problems before requesting a level change, the above could perhaps have provided some basis for speculation that wheather could have been a factor. If therefore we accept the report of a technical problem as being correct, then I would have thought it would be reasonable to assume the ensuing crash is more likely to have been brought about by that than any other instigating factor in the causal chain of events.

[butterfly68]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180311-0

Here it says they were at FL360 .After 45 min they climbed at FL377 and then the pronounced descent started...I recall I have read something about atc saying the pilots were talking about fuel problems(but I cannot find this info anymore) so the climb could be a need to save fuel for endurance calculations..but an immediate descent after that? why? stall? is it related?

[ThreeThreeMike]

Some years ago a Pinnicle CRJ suffered engine rotor lock by trying to fly too high. Both engines shut down and could not be restarted. The resulting dead stick landing was fatal. I don't know if the engines came from the same family or if a fix was made for the problem.

The problem was fixed when the aircraft hit the ground, thus preventing the crew from performing any further acts of idiocy.

[DaveReidUK]

Does anybody know why Canadian TSB did not comment or issue any kind of statement regarding this accident ?

Simple.

Accident investigation protocol is that it's for the investigating state (in this case Iran) to make any statements on the accident unless it chooses to delegate the investigation to another state.

Failing that, any TSB involvement would be as accredited representatives to the investigation, and it would not be expected to make any public comments while it is in progress.

[Marlon Brando]

Any updates, somewhere ?

[Chronus]

Any updates, somewhere ?

Ten of the victims remains have been returned and been buried in Turkey. The captain`s remain are still in Iran for forensic examination.

https://www.sozcu.com.tr/2018/gundem/jet-kazasinin-kurbanlari-topraga-veriliyor-2289103/

[butterfly68]

Nothing about the black boxes? I mean they should already know something...:sad: International newspapers says nothing...

[Chronus]

Nothing about the black boxes? I mean they should already know something...:sad: International newspapers says nothing...

Much too early for that.

[The Deec]

Anyone know the nationality of the flight crew ?

[aterpster]

Anyone know the nationality of the flight crew ?

Weren't they Turk ladies?

[rumour mill]

Indeed, both Turkish ladies. One recently rated and one recently upgraded.

Weren't they Turk ladies?

[Chronus]

The body of the captain has not been found, yet. There is no body, no trace of her, no DNA.

That`s rather curious. My understanding from the various press reports I have come across, is that forensic identification was required for ID of victims and further examinations were being conducted on the remains of the captain. In addition for DNA ID matching would be required. This would suggest, whilst DNA samples have been matched for the other victims, none yet may have been matched for the captain.

[butterfly68]

https://www.google.it/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/middle_east/plane-flying-from-uae-to-turkey-crashes-in-iran-killing-11/2018/03/11/3edf56b6-2593-11e8-a227-fd2b009466bc_story.html
The bodies were all found as the black boxes. Usually for the CVR it doesnt take so long to read it...

[rak64]

Any updates, somewhere ?
Here the named last picture. As I understand Captain Beril Gebes(ch), Copilot Melike Kuvvet, Stewardess Eda Uslu. (May they rest in peace)
https://www.sozcu.com.tr/2018/gundem/jet-kazasinin-kurbanlari-topraga-veriliyor-2289103/
https://i.sozcu.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/iran-kaza-foto-sozcu.jpg

But the next article contains interesting details.
https://www.ntv.com.tr/galeri/turkiye/dusen-ozel-jette-mina-basaran-7-arkadasi-ve-pilot-beril-gebes-hayatini-kaybetti,6MnWujLwZEWRA3gPQY_X7Q/vU_gDQZT7kGCXriPV2Owbg

https://cdn1.ntv.com.tr/gorsel/turkiye/dusen-ozel-jette-mina-basaran-7-arkadasi-ve-pilot-beril-gebes-hayatini-kaybetti/,vU_gDQZT7kGCXriPV2Owbg.jpg?w=960&mode=max&v=20180312100011101


I think that is inside the airplane. The red balloons are filled with helium?

The next foto a red balloon partial visible as well. They took it to the flight?
Isn't it the same like dry ice....hidden DG?
https://cdn1.ntv.com.tr/gorsel/turkiye/dusen-ozel-jette-mina-basaran-7-arkadasi-ve-pilot-beril-gebes-hayatini-kaybetti/,uKX1JIppGE2mkB05K_j_ow.jpg?w=960&mode=max&v=20180312100011101

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Not DG, it's non-restricted RNG under the allowance

[mjv]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180311-0

[DaveReidUK]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180311-0

See post #38.

[KRviator]

Shades of the CRJ crash in Sweden (https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20160108-0) a few years ago?

[Airbubba]

An all too familiar mishap following an instrument disagreement on a transport jet.

Narrative from the link above:

Narrative:

A Turkish Challenger 604 corporate jet impacted a mountain near Shahr-e Kurd in Iran, killing all 11 on board.

The aircraft departed Sharjah, UAE at 13:11 UTC on a flight to Istanbul, Turkey. The aircraft entered Tehran FIR fifteen minutes later and the Tehran ACC controller cleared the flight to climb to FL360 according to its flight plan. About 14:32, the pilot requested FL380, which was approved. Before reaching that altitude, the left and right airspeeds began to diverge by more than 10 knots. The left (captain's) airspeed indicator showed an increase while the right hand (copilot's) airspeed indicator showed a decrease.

A caution aural alert notified the flight crew of the difference. Remarks by the flight crew suggested that an 'EFIS COMP MON' caution message appeared on the EICAS.

As the aircraft was climbing, the crew reduced thrust to idle. Approximately 63 seconds later, while approaching FL380, the overspeed aural warning (clacker) began to sound, indicating that the indicated Mach had exceeded M 0.85. Based on the Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) of the aircraft, the pilot flying should validate the IAS based on the aircraft flight manual and define the reliable Air Data Computer (ADC) and select the reliable Air Data source. The pilot did not follow this procedure and directly reduced engine power to decrease the IAS after hearing the clacker. The actual airspeed thus reached a stall condition.

The copilot tried to begin reading of the 'EFIS COMP MON' abnormal procedure for three times but due to pilot interruption, she could not complete it. Due to decreasing speed, the stall aural warning began to sound, in addition to stick shaker and stick pusher activating repeatedly. The crew then should have referred to another emergency procedure to recover from the stall condition.

While the stick pusher acted to pitch down the aircraft to prevent a stall condition, the captain was mistakenly assumed an overspeed situation due to the previous erroneous overspeed warning and pulled on the control column. The aircraft entered a series of pitch and roll oscillations.

The autopilot was disengaged by the crew before stall warning, which ended the oscillations. Engine power began to decrease on both sides until both engines flamed out in a stall condition.

From that point on FDR data was lost because the electric bus did not continue to receive power from the engine generators. The CVR recording continued for a further approximately 1 minute and 20 seconds on emergency battery power. Stall warnings, stick shaker and stick pusher activations continued until the end of the recording.

The aircraft then impacted mountainous terrain.

[Sailvi767]

Does anyone know how to just fly anymore?

[Setright]

Does anyone know how to just fly anymore?
arh.....no.

[macdo]

After Air France, it is scary to think this is still happening. Probably a factor in the Lion Air crash as well.

[vickers vanguard]

Pretty bad ! the Air France A330 accident isn’t a good comparaison in term of design philosophy. The 604/605 share pretty much the same stall warning system of the 601. It’s bullet proof and old technology. Barely relies on the ADCs, it uses an ALT input to fine tune the trigger point of the shaker and pusher. but other than that, it soley relies on stand alone analog AOA vanes and a proven analog stall computer. The 604/605 might not be a hot rod in the high thirties but it’s a proven aircraft, built like a tank, and has been trusted by major corporations like BOEING to transport their management for the last 20 years.

[iceman50]

:mad::ugh::ugh::ugh: Can we have PILOTS flying aircraft please!!!

[Jet Jockey A4]

More incompetence in a cockpit.

[spoon84]

Very sad and incredible. I think that blaming the pilots., which are not here anymore, doesn't help. I think that many accidents are nowadays related to unreliable instruments reading and bad manual flying skills related to bad problem solving. That's scary.

Looking at the future and with shortage of pilots, we need to be able to elevate the quality of training and give the pilots all the tools to become proficient and confortable to solve all problems in complex cockpit situations.

[Jetstream67]

I wish training still included flying somewhere in the course ...

[macdo]

That is exactly what is scary about the scenario in 20 years time. By then, most pilots sitting in both seats will have come come through an approved school and accelerated themselves into a flying computer which has eroded what basic flying skills they ever had. All the old guys from the military or GA will have retired. If you can't revert to Power+Attitude=Perf. when deprived of your flight instruments, what hope is there that aircraft can be saved if the instruments fail?

[lucille]

But don’t you just love it when they say Capt. XYZ has 19,000 hours and is very experienced. How so? I ask, when 18,800 of those has been sitting staring out of the window with the AP engaged. Its no more useful experience than sitting in First Class, sipping Champagne and logging the time.

The odd chap I know who dares to hand fly an approach will never do so with the A/T disengaged. It’s no wonder no one can fly.

[atakacs]

That is exactly what is scary about the scenario in 20 years time.

Well by then it is far from certain that anyone would be sitting in those chairs.

As for this accident it seems that yes, the pilots are to blame.

[BizJetJock]

the pilots are to blame
Really? The training system in general, a company that probably went out of its way to find the cheapest training that was legal or the regulators that made those rules - none of these are any factor? I hope you are never judged by those standards, for your sake.

[BluSdUp]

Atakacs.
Dear Sir, I bet my boat that in 20 years there is still a pilot in any transport category aircraft and the oars that there is still two!!
Specially the 100 000 plus produced from ca 1970 to ca 2038.
Most of them piloted by qualified crew, as basic training and recurrent training has to get better.

Murphy and Darwin is hard at work weeding out the weak and incompetent on line, as the schools, CAAs and Flight-training Departments are not capable of stopping them. Being run by money, not safety.
The exception looks to be the USA , and every day that goes, I get greater respect for the FAA system.
The European system so loved by insiders and outsiders alike, are severely flawed. Incompetent pilots get command every day.
Rising two levels above competency level is endemic , I am afraid!

Regards
Cpt B

[J.O.]

As for this accident it seems that yes, the pilots are to blame.





Sure thing, remove pilots and no more accidents will occur. :hmm:

/sarcasm.

I have to wonder if the cockpit gradient was a factor here. Interrupting the FO's attempts to complete a checklist that might have helped address the situation smells suspiciously like a captain with CRM issues.

[filejw]

Very sad and incredible. I think that blaming the pilots., which are not here anymore, doesn't help. I think that many accidents are nowadays related to unreliable instruments reading and bad manual flying skills related to bad problem solving. That's scary.

Looking at the future and with shortage of pilots, we need to be able to elevate the quality of training and give the pilots all the tools to become proficient and confortable to solve all problems in complex cockpit situations.

So who would you blame ? I always thought I had a personal responsibility to to keep my skill level and systems knowledge up to a certain standard whether an issue was covered in recurrent training or not. I had unreliable airspeed abnormal two or three times in my career and the last time just before retirement last year the A/P disconnected at the same time. Make sure you can fly the A/C in all situations folks .

[Vessbot]

Sure thing, remove pilots and no more accidents will occur. :hmm:

/sarcasm.

I have to wonder of the cockpit gradient was a factor here. Interrupting the FO's attempts to complete a checklist that might have helped address the situation smells suspiciously like a captain with CRM issues.

I don't think so. It's very normal that when getting conflicting indications and losing control, to get hyper focused on the immediate task (that "fly the airplane first" thing) and shed nonessentials until it's under control. But it's a catch-22 that the nonessential being shed might help regain control...

[macdo]

I think it is difficult not to blame the pilots of being at fault for crashing the aircraft. The fact that they clearly were not capable of dealing with the situation was most likely the fault of their training. As for CRM, I imagine the confusion and lack of a disciplined response to the emergency was again, a fault of their training and ability to perceive the problem and work as a team to solve.

[hans brinker]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180311-0

Ouch. Sounds like the FO was trying to do the right thing while the Captain didn't react correctly. While it could have been possible to get an overspeed during the climb as there were reports of turbulence while over mountainous terrain, the combination of overspeed on one side in combination with reports of icing conditions make wrong airspeed indication due to pitot icing more likely. Pulling engines to idle while continuing to climb would not be the right reaction even if there was an overspeed. Subsequently ignoring stall warnings and stick pushers while at least some of the airspeed indications seemed to be correct (Comperator warning) until the engines flamed out is just not excusable. Much more realistic training is required to prevent these things from happening.

[Intrance]

Power and pitch, know your plane. I'm no top gun, but I know roughly the power settings and pitch my CRJ will do in the different phases of flight. Who in their right mind will pull thrust to idle in a climb and then sit and stare for a minute watching airspeed still climb, without thinking something is not quite right? I hope that is just a mistake in the description on ASN.

EFIS COMP MON is not a very hard caution message to deal with. It should normally combine with an indication on the PFD to tell you which comparison has failed (pitch/roll/alt/ias/hdg etc). The QRH steps for it combined with IAS indication are literally to cross check the instruments, determine which one is likely correct and switch to that side data source. If no indication for IAS seems correct, go to unreliable airspeed and fly according to pitch/power tables.

[Loose rivets]

Way back, I issued a met warning in Palma one night when our BAC 1-11 showed nothing on one ASI and over 350 on the other. We'd just lifted off. The aircraft was thrown over some hangers to the left of the runway. We climbed away and everything was normal after that except that Barcelona became very busy that night.

The relevant point here is that with those conditions, accelerative side forces in those conditions may just have caused a momentary difference in the pitot/static pressures that triggered the difference warning. Not long, but an age if the wrong conclusions are arrived at.

[megan]

get hyper focused on the immediate task (that "fly the airplane first" thing) and shed nonessentials until it's under controlVessbot, couldn't agree more. Was once in a situation where I was so focussed on getting us out of our predicament that I never knew until it was over that the PM had put out a mayday, nor conscious of the bells and whistles in the cockpit blaring. Hearing is the first thing you lose when under stress.

[Dan_Brown]

I blame the modern system. Geared to automatics. Why isn't this scenario trained for and practised???. Which of the 3 has the most potential to be unreliable?? Attitude? Power indication? or A/S that has been through some sort of ADC? 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing but all the crew had to do was fly an attitude and a power setting. If you have forgotten the power setting, then it should be in the QRH, should it not?.Flying skills are well down the list of priorities for most outfits of today. These sort of failures and how to deal with them, should be practised in training. from ab initio onwards. A known power setting plus attitude will give a know A/S, whether it be IAS or TAS. Even some sense would be drawn from a G/S read out, corrected for wind.. So fly an attitude for level flight and a known power setting. That would have kept them flying under control and this must be a memory item or reflex action. If the auto pilot plays up, we fly manually, and don't use it. right? If the airspeeds are showing ambiguity, don't use them.

Anyone have any ideas why this training is not in place??? We are moving away from the basics and have been for a long time. Yes, if the computers keep playing up, we are going to see more of this. Pilots now are becoming over reliant on automation.

[The Deec]

But don’t you just love it when they say Capt. XYZ has 19,000 hours and is very experienced. How so? I ask, when 18,800 of those has been sitting staring out of the window with the AP engaged. Its no more useful experience than sitting in First Class, sipping Champagne and logging the time.

The odd chap I know who dares to hand fly an approach will never do so with the A/T disengaged. It’s no wonder no one can fly.
Very true but unfortunately computers are better at flying planes than us weakest link humans are... they are much quicker at identifying tech /inst problems before our small brains can get our heads around a very complicated problem... Add into the mix short rest periods, fatigue, high alt ,flying long sectors through different time zones and you've got a recipe for disaster. There really is no real need for pilots any more when you think about it .

[flash8]

50​​​ page interim here in English (scroll down to entry 8):

https://www.cao.ir/web/english/investigation-reports?p_p_auth=dV2QCx9c&p_p_id=49&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_49_struts_action=%2Fmy_sites%2Fview&_49_groupId=220467&_49_privateLayout=false

​​​​​​

[suninmyeyes]

But don’t you just love it when they say Capt. XYZ has 19,000 hours and is very experienced. How so? I ask, when 18,800 of those has been sitting staring out of the window with the AP engaged. Its no more useful experience than sitting in First Class, sipping Champagne and logging the time.

The odd chap I know who dares to hand fly an approach will never do so with the A/T disengaged. It’s no wonder no one can fly.

Except in the early days of those 19,000 hours he may have flown some heavy piston engined planes or turbo props, or early generations of jets, when autopilots were not reliable and better basic skills were required. He probably flew well before GPS or INS was used and so was used to tracking VOR and ADF needles and flying instrument approaches manually. He has probably experienced a couple of engine failures and shutdowns in his 28 year career. Admittedly he probably had better knowledge of pitch and power settings in the earlier days than he has now but after all those hours at the controls he probably has a better feel for when something is going wrong and what feels right. He probably has a better interpretation of a weather radar image and what is safe and what is not safe because he flew before red, amber, and green weather radar presentations and not only interpreted the old green picture but tilted it down to the ground and used it to assess his drift. He does less hand flying now than he used to but can still hand fly when needed. His copilot might think his reactions are a little slow but the truth is this grizzled veteran is evaluating for just that little bit longer before he makes a decision over a diagnosis that can have deadly results if got wrong.

In those 19,000 hours he has probably had about 5 days as a professional airline pilot where he really frightened himself. These occasions might have been unforecast bad weather or technical problems or near mid air collisions or swiss cheese holes lining up on him. He will have done many more simulator checks than an inexperienced pilot and will have seen unreliable airspeed numerous times and had he been faced with the conditions that caused this terrible accident above he might just have paused when the Mach overspeed clacker sounded. He (or she) might have looked at the copilot's ASI, felt that something was wrong and then realised the situation rather than closing the thrust levers on the basis of a faulty indication. So don't knock the 19,000 hour pilot, it is true 18,000 hours of time may have been spent on autopilot but his years of experience may have given him the skills needed to cope with the unexpected, unbriefed situation that might just avoid an event becoming an accident.

[Capn Bloggs]

Very true but unfortunately computers are better at flying planes than us weakest link humans are... they are much quicker at identifying tech /inst problems before our small brains can get our heads around a very complicated problem... Add into the mix short rest periods, fatigue, high alt ,flying long sectors through different time zones and you've got a recipe for disaster. There really is no real need for pilots any more when you think about it .
Written by a true professional pilot... or a troll?

[Sorry Dog]

Very true but unfortunately computers are better at flying planes than us weakest link humans are... they are much quicker at identifying tech /inst problems before our small brains can get our heads around a very complicated problem... .

Don't suppose you could identify these superior problem solving computers... model number or name would be nice. I'd like to learn more about our replacements...

[KRviator]

Don't suppose you could identify these superior problem solving computers... model number or name would be nice. I'd like to learn more about our replacements...Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it (https://www.riotinto.com/media/media-releases-237_25824.aspx)...

[Capn Bloggs]

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it (https://www.riotinto.com/media/media-releases-237_25824.aspx)...
Yes, good one. That program has been a ballsup from day 1.

https://www.afr.com/business/mining/iron-ore/rio-tintos-robot-trains-cause-confusion-and-delay-20160419-goa4l0

All they had to do was create a big train set on a very limited rail network. Pretty simple, I would have thought. What's the Unreliable Train Speed drill??

If anything, that shows that pilots will be in the seat for a looong time yet. Better start training pilots to fly aeroplanes again because we ain't goin' nowhere!

[His dudeness]

Very true but unfortunately computers are better at flying planes than us weakest link humans are... they are much quicker at identifying tech /inst problems before our small brains can get our heads around a very complicated problem... Add into the mix short rest periods, fatigue, high alt ,flying long sectors through different time zones and you've got a recipe for disaster. There really is no real need for pilots any more when you think about it .

So, now you read AF447 up and tell me exactly what a computer would have done there, when precisely what the Atari did was to say: take over please, I´m basically at the end of my wisdom and can´t make out what happens here.

WHY a crew of 3 professionals can´t understand that they just lost the pitots is a different question, one of training IMHO. Especially when the BirginAir and AeroPeru crashes were basically old news and very much accessible news.

I can tell you that we train with an international provider of the highest standards and we had to request this training to get it. EASA thinks its way more important to train one engine out scenarios until the doctor arrives, rather than the deadly stuff that really happens nowadays...

[His dudeness]

Written by a true professional pilot... or a troll?

Bloggs, to be fair: any A/P flies an apporach better than I do, any A/P keeps the speed better, the altitude etcetc.

The rest falls to us animals with skills that are not suitable, basically, and given that we do not to bad I´d say....

[Intrance]

Maybe don't turn this into a thread for "computers and AI vs. pilots"... I'm sure there is a thread somewhere else for that already.

Having just read the report and being familiar with the type of avionics, it is a stark reminder of proper procedures and airmanship. The PIC interrupting the checklist multiple times, forgetting the old but true aviate, navigate, communicate by talking to the passengers instead of dealing with the abnormal situation, completely ignoring the stall protection and stick shaker... It really has shades of the CRJ200 crash in Sweden. Both could have been prevented with an instrument cross check early on and some logical thinking.

As always, hindsight is 20/20, but still... Take a moment to analyze before acting is just so damn important.

[Sailvi767]

This and several other accidents comes down to a desire for the cheapest possible training and a desire by the industry to qualify pilots who should not be in the cockpit to reduce costs. It’s not going to change. Cost is king!

[flash8]

it is a stark reminder of proper procedures and airmanship
You are far too diplomatic, the PIC made every single mistake in the book.

[JulioLS]

Selecting idle at cruise level sounds very unwise.... Tick tock tick tock....

[aterpster]

Could get it no problem, also Europe.

Is it small enough for you to upload to PPRune?

[Intrance]

Is it small enough for you to upload to PPRune?

Just tried but it doesn't seem to accept it. It's about 2,7MB, apparently too big in this day and age.

Here's a link if this works:
TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free (http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=59848676261791355049)

[aterpster]

Just tried but it doesn't seem to accept it. It's about 2,7MB, apparently too big in this day and age.

Here's a link if this works:
TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free (http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=59848676261791355049)

That worked. Thanks!!

[Setright]

This and several other accidents comes down to a desire for the cheapest possible training and a desire by the industry to qualify pilots who should not be in the cockpit to reduce costs. It’s not going to change. Cost is king!

Yes it will change....when you (the industry) has killed enough of your customers.

[Chronus]

Some colleagues flew there that day and experienced very unstable atmosphere which caused speed shift, beyond the limitation in certain cases

That would seem to contradict the THY crew`s report that they were in smooth conditions.
However the accident flight was in known wx conditions with active CB cells around.
So pitot icing remains the favorite.
The crew was alerted to instrument differences at 14:31:55 and at 14:39:39 recording ceased. Just about 8 minutes, that`s more than enough time to identify the problem and sort things out would be my thoughts. Am afraid there is nothing in the report that makes me think other than the crew`s failure to cope with instrument malfunction.
The curious thing is that the captain`s remains have not been found/identified. Especially having regard to the facts that the aircraft impacted the ground intact, at low speed, the debris field was not extensive and the victims died of blunt trauma injuries. That seems to be the only question remaining about this particular accident.