Redundant Navigators [Archive]

NutLoose

10th Mar 2018, 18:57

I heard the flipping robot lasted only one day. Could not stand the heat over the grill. Also had a hard time centering the meat on the bun!]

They took it offline because it was to slow... and they are speeding it up, they made it too realistic :E

Basil

11th Mar 2018, 05:36

It’s all right, stick monkeys are equally threatened in the news this week...:p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hVESPNDVOk
Hilarious!
Chimp: (Thinks) "Hope the monkey knows how to land this thing!" ;)

gums

11th Mar 2018, 19:46

Deja vu one mo' time, huh ?

I only flew with "help" for a few hundred hours in the VooDoo. We lowly pilots were not allowed to mess around with the high tech radar system, so the guy in the back seat operated the avionics ( except the radio and autopilot and tacan). Alledgedly, the RIO was also a "navigator", but I saw a few times that worried me, heh heh.

Our main job was to fly the plane, make radio calls, land the plane ( blowing snow, 20 kt crosswind, etc) and " steer the dot" once the RIO had a good lock on. Seems to me hat the pilot could have been a robot.

And then I went single seat for anothe 3,500 hours in three different jets. So for awhile it was brutal, but by early 70's the avionics came to replace the human navigator. I still had to follow orders, fly the jet, hit the target, land it in blowing snow with a crosswind, and all the things we human pilots were supposed to do.

###############

I really like Flippy, but too expensive for my BBQ on the patio. Also, Flippy doesn't know all the hot dates at our old TDY bases.

Oh well, those days are gone and we should just let them go.

Gums muses....

gileraguy

11th Mar 2018, 20:20

or perhaps not.... Flippy works one day then takes leave...

https://mashable.com/2018/03/10/flippy-burger-robot/#D9zyEj.fCaqc

A Squared

11th Mar 2018, 20:28

It’s all right, stick monkeys are equally threatened in the news this week...:p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hVESPNDVOk

I'm drawing the line at grooming my copilot for fleas. (0:33)

Herod

11th Mar 2018, 20:46

I'm drawing the line at grooming my copilot for fleas. (0:33)

The joys of the commercial world. Some of the lady co-pilots....

westernhero

11th Mar 2018, 21:01

Free to a good home ?... hat, coat, etc

A Squared

11th Mar 2018, 21:27

The joys of the commercial world. Some of the lady co-pilots....

I'm gonna go with: Female or not, if they require flea grooming, I'm not gonna be the one.
;)

Herod

11th Mar 2018, 21:50

Sorry, A Squared, but I wasn't thinking about fleas as such. ;)

SASless

11th Mar 2018, 23:00

Flip Burgers...fetch the Pies....at least the Robots had some personality!

See on the news this morning that robots have now supplanted navs in yet another role

Burger flipping

Hat, coat , scarf

NutLoose

12th Mar 2018, 02:04

It's looking like another part of their trade is being mechanised too.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140107868

..

TBM-Legend

12th Mar 2018, 21:52

Then there was the Nav who threw himself at the ground and missed!

Herod

12th Mar 2018, 21:55

Then there was the Nav who threw himself at the ground and missed!

No, no. That's how to fly. Douglas Adams I believe.

Lima Juliet

13th Mar 2018, 22:22

And of course a plate of pilot brains...
https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/empty-plate-on-white-picture-id184276935?k=6&m=184276935&s=612x612&w=0&h=YEfvRwL9Ea5s3-k6USwJ35kaYEZk3SLUtfJ0sxlgQ1A=
A favourite joke of mine from an old Nav I knew :ok:

NutLoose

14th Mar 2018, 18:22

Don't forget you often use a pilot before the proper tool for the job.

POBJOY

14th Mar 2018, 22:48

True story at a well know training establishment that had a 'Browns' restaurant in the local town.

Short course for mainly ex service aircrew to gain CAA licence.

Nav instructor is giving the pilots a hard time (normal for him) and bemoaning the loss of his kin on the flt deck; whilst trying his hardest to make the subject more complicated than needed for the exam.

Sensing that we are not seeming to be in awe of all this he turns to one of our band (ex lightning and Phantom jockey and CFS instructor) and says:- Charles here will confirm the worth of a good nav !!!.Without batting an eyelid or raising his voice this wonderful chap quietly said 'I'd rather have 200lb of extra fuel' Exit our furious 'ex nav' in white coat; the slamming of the door drowned out by the thunderous cheers of the smiling drivers.

In fact we did not really think that way, but he did slow up on the anti pilot slag offs after that.

It would be impolite to mention an important meeting when an Airline was exploring the possibility of removing Nav's from the flt deck. After presenting a very cogent case for the retention of such crew to the management; this senior nav gentleman rather spoilt his case by attempting to leave the room via the door to the broom cupboard.

Haraka

15th Mar 2018, 06:57

The Towers, late 60's, Rock Ape survival lectures .

" Pilots. Do look after your navigator. You might have to eat him one day."

ShyTorque

15th Mar 2018, 07:15

Don't forget you often use a pilot before the proper tool for the job.

A cockpit drill??

josephfeatherweight

15th Mar 2018, 08:29

Nav instructor is giving the pilots a hard time (normal for him) and bemoaning the loss of his kin on the flt deck; whilst trying his hardest to make the subject more complicated than needed for the exam.
You've just described the training doctrine of ANY course I EVER endured that was facilitated by a NAV!
Most of 'em were all good for a beer or two though...

Tankertrashnav

15th Mar 2018, 11:44

In retrospect, Korean Airlines Flight 007 might have benefited from a navigator rather than 200 pounds of extra fuel.

POBJOY

16th Mar 2018, 00:28

T T N The guy who made the comment was a ex Phantom driver so not really casting a doubt on Nav's in general, and he only made it because the 'instigator' was being a pain. The other ex Nav instructors were really good and always brought some humour into the proceedings; one comment I remember well was when explaining the pro's and con's of the ADF. 'The ADF is a very reliable instrument it always points towards the nearest thunderstorm'. it still makes me smile. Anyway TTN please do not confuse banter with anything else.

Ascend Charlie

16th Mar 2018, 04:52

Knew a guy who had a smart dog. he would ask the dog:
"Dog! Would you rather be a navigator, or DEAD?" and the dog promptly rolled onto its back with legs in the air.

ShyTorque

16th Mar 2018, 07:30

The Towers, late 60's, Rock Ape survival lectures .

" Pilots. Do look after your navigator. You might have to eat him one day."

Having a fat nav meant that in the event of ejecting and meeting a bear you only had to outrun one of them.

BEagle

16th Mar 2018, 07:46

Ascend Charlie wrote:

Knew a guy who had a smart dog. he would ask the dog:
"Dog! Would you rather be a navigator, or DEAD?" and the dog promptly rolled onto its back with legs in the air.

Would that be Milo Wildpig's red setter 'Sasha'?

57mm

16th Mar 2018, 13:57

I remember her as Tasha, a handsome animal (unlike Wildpig).

OKOC

16th Mar 2018, 17:29

Knew a guy who had a smart dog. he would ask the dog:
"Dog! Would you rather be a navigator, or DEAD?" and the dog promptly rolled onto its back with legs in the air.

Hilarious-Dick.

OKOC

16th Mar 2018, 17:29

Having a fat nav meant that in the event of ejecting and meeting a bear you only had to outrun one of them.

Hilarious-dick.

OKOC

16th Mar 2018, 17:31

Then there was the Nav who threw himself at the ground and missed!

Really Hilarious-Dick.

Tankertrashnav

16th Mar 2018, 17:39

Pobjoy - dont worry - I'm quite happy with banter

An old Hunter pilot* chum always used to say "hello Rockape" when we met, but when I re-trained as a nav he then switched to "hello talking ballast."

I didn't mind a bit!

(* initials D. H-H - some older PPRuNers may remember him).

Lima Juliet

16th Mar 2018, 19:48

Having a fat nav meant that in the event of ejecting and meeting a bear you only had to outrun one of them.

Ah, but remember, in a survival situation, the fat get thin and the thin die...:ok:

Herod

16th Mar 2018, 21:36

(* initials D. H-H - some older PPRuNers may remember him).

Ex-Aden chap. Didn't know him well, but followed his exploits. :D or :=

ShyTorque

16th Mar 2018, 21:57

Ex-Aden chap. Didn't know him well, but followed his exploits. :D or :=

One of his exploits was telling me I'd passed my CPL check ride.

ShyTorque

16th Mar 2018, 22:00

Hilarious-dick.

But at least it was meant in fun, for the benefit of navigators with a sense of humour. As most of them do....

ShyTorque

16th Mar 2018, 22:10

Ah, but remember, in a survival situation, the fat get thin and the thin die...:ok:

In the absence of bears, true. Thankfully, these days I have managed to accumulate more personal reserves for a survival situation.

gums

16th Mar 2018, 22:27

Laughing, because when I flew the VooDoo way up north, the life support troops only packed one of those .22 hornet survival rifles in one of our two survival packs. Hmmmmmm.....

The theory was the guy with the rifle could dispose of the other and eat him! Gasp.

The Cannucks flew from 200 miles north of us at Grand Forks, and went way way up north on our exercises. Dunno what their survival gear was like, but,ours was brutal. We often talked about bailing close to our jet wreckage and using what we could from the wreckage. We both had great down sleeping bags and other stuff, but only one rifle unless we "packed" our own, heh heh. Other biggie was a way to start a fire, so we smokers were in good shape.

Not to diminish the real navigators, but many "system operators" in the back seat were not well trained to actually "navigate". Maybe some folks that flew early Phantoms and other interceptors can comment.

Gums dons flak vest and covers....

POBJOY

16th Mar 2018, 22:42

T T N So pleased; we had an ex nav (became a driver with us in civvy st) who related tales of his 'back seating' in the F4 and how he could use his nav rule as a substitute pole to fit in the empty socket on the floor. Apparently this was quite normal, to have some fun.

Ormeside28

16th Mar 2018, 23:08

How sad thatNavigators are no longer with us. In my days in the fifties in Coastal, all pilots had to do a navigation and maritime course for three months on Lancaster’s at St Mawgan before going to Kinloss on Neptune’s or Shacks. There were two Navs on each trip, one qualified N and one pilot u/t Nav. After all the hard work passing the Nav part of the course, I was determined that when I got my own crew, I would do the odd leg as Navigator It was not to be as all the logs and charts on the Squadrons were checked and marked, so, even as Captain I was not allowed near their precious charts! - only to check where we were - no touching !. I am still in touch with my first Navigator, also very old , one co - pilot and one Signaller, all from my first crew. All the others have “ taken off”. How will the new jets cope with Maritime. Automatics do go u/s.

Tankertrashnav

17th Mar 2018, 10:39

That's interesting Ormeside. Those of you who have read Fate is the Hunter (and I'm assuming it's most of you) will recall the bits where Gann goes back to keep his hand in at shooting some astro, which he also computed and plotted himself. I came to the conclusion he was probably a better navigator than I ever was, as well as the small detail of also being a highly accomplished pilot. Set against that, some pilots I have known would have had difficulty in finding their own way out to the aircraft without help!

Fonsini

17th Mar 2018, 11:49

Flight engineers are reading these comments and wondering if anyone remembers the guy who used to monitor engine temperatures and balance the CoG with fuel movements.

Ormeside28

17th Mar 2018, 12:35

I remember my Flight Engineers. All older than me, all gone. Where would we have been without them. In the Neptune Harry ———— sat on a wooden stool in the entranc to the cockpit, next to the bank of electrics. Under a flap in the floor were the fuel controls which he could operate. JB was my Engineer on 120. He had his own compartment with all the engine “Gubbins” . “ Jacko “ on 205. Never forgotten and a great support. All ex Bomber Command Lancs and unflappable. I was able to keep each one all my tours on the Squadrons. So Forsini, I still remember them, though long gone.

Pontius Navigator

17th Mar 2018, 16:14

Orme, and the Hastings, a REAL crew aircraft proper offices for the rear crew, "Engineer slow cut on my call"

wiggy

17th Mar 2018, 17:26

Gums

Not to diminish the real navigators, but many "system operators" in the back seat were not well trained to actually "navigate". Maybe some folks that flew early Phantoms and other interceptors can comment.

As I recall it in the early 80’s the RAF navigators on the Phantom had all gone through some form of core navigation course (at RAF Finningley) which included the likes of Astro........so yes, they had been trained in the dark arts before progressing to mastering the enigma of the B-scope....

Ormeside28

17th Mar 2018, 17:27

Sometimes though Pontious it was “ plus three, plus two, zero boost minus two, minus four then a frantic MY POWER!! Shades of 47 At Topcliffe. Happy days!!, kind regards.

POBJOY

17th Mar 2018, 17:57

Now Now TTN you are getting a bit 'frosty' again after you promised to behave yourself.
A Pilot 'pretending' to be unsure of his position is really giving the Nav the chance to show his mettle,and therefore being happy=contented crew.
As for walking to the 'machine' I quite agree; it is disgraceful for a Pilot to have to wander around like this when he should be taken out in a sedan chair by the Nav and his oppo.

Tankertrashnav

17th Mar 2018, 19:15

I was once dragooned into a squadron chariot race in which I had to assist in dragging our captain (also flight commander) around a course, in company with several other "horses" (the rest of the crew). I suppose we were lucky he never thought of the sedan chair idea!

NRU74

17th Mar 2018, 19:30

As for walking to the 'machine' I quite agree; it is disgraceful for a Pilot to have to wander around like this when he should be taken out in a sedan chair by the Nav and his oppo.

Nah, surely a Palanquin like the Pope had, carried by the Co-pilot, Nav, Eng and Siggie !

Herod

17th Mar 2018, 20:22

Nah, surely a Palanquin like the Pope had, carried by the Co-pilot, Nav, Eng and Siggie !

You forgot, for the transport fleet, the Loadie strewing rose petals. ;)

Pontius Navigator

17th Mar 2018, 21:10

Gums

As I recall it in the early 80’s the RAF navigators on the Phantom had all gone through some form of core navigation course (at RAF Finningley) which included the likes of Astro........so yes, they had been trained in the dark arts before progressing to mastering the enigma of the B-scope....

I recall one Nav Inst, late 80s, saying more or less:

If you are over the North Sea and it is morning put the Sun behind you, it is it afternoon head towards the Sun, If it is midday keep the Sun on your left. You will reach UK.

As for night flying . . .

Fareastdriver

18th Mar 2018, 08:56

when he should be taken out in a sedan chair by the Nav and his oppo.

Make sure they walk out-of-step. I was taken for a ride in an imperial sedan chair, not the Emperor's, only a queen/concubine model, and it was the most uncomfortable form of transport I have experienced.

Mind you, there were only two little blokes lugging me around so maybe I was outside their normal operating weight.

Rasputin412

18th Mar 2018, 09:30

That chimp paid more attention than some of my current students!

langleybaston

18th Mar 2018, 14:51

If you stand with your back to the wind and Low Pressure is on your left, you are in the Northern Hemisphere. [not much use near the equator of course].

Pontius Navigator

18th Mar 2018, 15:07

If you stand with your back to the wind and Low Pressure is on your left, you are in the Northern Hemisphere. [not much use near the equator of course].
But how do you know where the low pressure is? :)

Fareastdriver

18th Mar 2018, 15:29

Ask a met man.

He will say, If you stand with your back to the wind and Low Pressure is on your left, you are in the Northern Hemisphere. [not much use near the equator of course].

Herod

18th Mar 2018, 17:47

I was taught it as "if you stand with your back to the wind in the Northern Hemisphere, you bum gets cold"

Wrathmonk

18th Mar 2018, 18:22

Having worked with aircrew with different styles of wings and brevets, from all 3 services and across numerous nations, I often found the ones that were most verbal, and least humourous, on the non-pilot banter were the ones that needed them most.;):E

POBJOY

18th Mar 2018, 18:26

As an Air Cadet at Kenley I was always told that if you stood with your back to the Officers Mess the NAFFI was on the right . And it was, every time.

I am still smiling at the Dead Dog bit.

No one has confirmed 'or otherwise' the Nav Rule in the F4 socket !!!!

pulse1

18th Mar 2018, 19:01

"If you stand with your back to the wind and Low Pressure is on your left, you are in the Northern Hemisphere. [not much use near the equator of course]"

I understood from my Yachtmaster instructor that the Merchant Navy learn it the other way round, i.e. facing the wind. He didn't appreciate it when I said that sailors learn not to turn their back on anything.