STAND AND BE COUNTED

[rocketboots]

Right here goes.Just recieved the exam results for the supposed last sitting of the UK national ATPL written exams.I personaly had two to sit and passed one and failed one,the later being at 74%.Naturally i am heart broken as this means everything that ive worked for over the last 2 years has gone.However i`m not just prepared to roll over and die and accept that everything that ive passed is no longer any good.Im appealing to any other wannabees who are in this situation to get together and perhaps get some sort of recognition for our exam passes,and be allowed to finish of the final remaining exam.Understadibly,were not talking lots of resits here just people who have missed out by 1 or 2% with 1 exam left.The CAA have been flexible before,and i`m sure with enough people in this situation,they can be again.Before people start rushing in with the fact that wev`e`had plenty of warning etc etc,may i just say that we were not!.Iwas never informed in writting,that back in 1999 that they had changed the partial pass rule,where the cut of point for december1999 had been moved to june 2000,and then moved again to june 2001.I was never informed in writting that in january 2001, that the partial pass rule had been removed completley,and that you get 4 attempts at the sittings.My point here is that if they can change the rules as and when they wish then perhaps they can do it again.So many of us our so close to realising our dream,are we honestly going to give it up after so much work and determination?
I`m hearing stories from a reliable source that one student was on his 5TH sitting for the june exams.The authrity has been flexible before,surely they can be again.I appeal to you all to write on this forum your`e` ideas emotions and perhaps with enough of us we can get there.Remember don`t ask don`t get

[TooHotToFly]

The trouble with your suggestion is where do you stop? Exemptions for people who missed out by a couple of percent on one exam works okay for you, but then you will have people who missed out by 5% complaining that they're not allowed exemptions.

[mad_jock]

To be honest if they drop any lower than 75% the exams would become a joke. The only way you could lower it would be to have negative marking and other such nastys.

MJ

[rocketboots]

Thanks for the replies,and fair comment on both.I think its fair to say that 1% even 5% in terms of the exams only equates to perhaps being only 1 question or at a push 2 questions from a pass.Quite clearly at these percentages the difference is absolutley marginal.Any greater than this and whole heartedley i would agree that were diverging away from a good understanding of the subject and that of not quite grasping it.
Reference the pass mark.If my memory seves me right the CAA dropped there pass mark down to 65% to accomodate the JAR exams,and i feel that this didn`t degrade the standards in any way.
If i may make a suggestion or two?
How about this.Candidates who have resits may retake there failed subjects under JAR.I.E radio aids for example.They could obtain some correspondence notes from an approved school study them ,and with controlled correspondence,be brought up to the required standard for the CAA exam in radio aids.Why not?We are allowed to hold national examination credits,and undergo JAR flight training,so why can we not be able to have a mix of national and JAR examination passes afforded to those people still in limbo.Are we saying that the JAR exams are of such a higher standard that the national passes are not worth the paper there written on?I think not.Keep the ideas coming.As we speak i am hearing of developments down at the authority but its still quite sketchy!

[Dan Dare]

Surely to be commercial pilot you should all get 100%. Anything less would not cut the mustard. A 75% mark means that you got a quarter wrong! In a world where the press makes every mistake front page news this wouldn't do...

Sorry, but this career path is chokka full of hurdles. First jump through the CAA/JAA hoops, then the FTO, then the examiners', then the airlines. Eventually there can't be any more hoops (I'm still waiting for them to end though).

Good luck to all you hoop jumpers out there!

[Sagey]

If unsuccessful does that mean that you have to sit all the exams again??.

Slightly confused on what is meant by last chance etc. Is it u can never get an ATPL, or is it you have to resit them.

Sagey

[rocketboots]

Sagey ,when i mean last chance this meant that it was last chance at the national examinations not,that you gan never sit a atpl exam again.Sorry if this confused you.For those wishing to re sit it means passing 14 exams that you have all but already passed but obviously when you were less academicaly gifted than our compatrriots under JAR.

[mad_jock]

Until you have seen a JAR exam paper you don't know what you are up against.

Some are written in a foriegn langauge then translated by computer into English.

It is the only exams i have ever seen which is acually suited to dsylexics. Some of the questions are more a case of understanding what they are asking than picking the right answer.

MJ

[rocketboots]

Have just had a really interesting chat with a ground engineer who has informed me that as far as ground exams are concerned,they too are under JAR as from june 2001,but due to the large amounts of people still in the system from the national exams,people are still being allowed to sit exams under the national system upto a couple of months from now,peoples circumstances pending,i.e spaces becoming available.Now tell me alls fair in love and war.

[3db]

Rocketboots
You might have a better chance asking the CAA to re-mark your paper, "as its so borderline", and given the consequences of a fail. In my experience most examiners will try to find an additional mark if at all possible. However, I dodn't know the exams involved, if its "tick the right answer" stuff, if might not be possible.
Good luck.

[This message has been edited by 3db (edited 15 June 2001).]

[Sagey]

Surely it is Multi choice though, and therefore it is extremely hard to find an "extra mark". Are they marked by hand of computer??? Computer could have failed to pick up a correct mark.

Sagey

[rocketboots]

3DB spoken to somebody about this option who is well upto speed with the ins and outs of this.They have informed me that the remark for which you pay 30 more pounds merely is a manual re mark,where an examiner simply physicaly with his own eyes looks to see if there are the right amount of marks where they should be,and compares them to a master sheet.Unfortunatley they will not look at your workings out to see if they can mark you up,i.e you transfering the correct answer,but putting it into the wrong box.However if you no of anybody who has been afforded this kind gesture,well i`m all ears!!!!
The thing that really got me,when i booked my june exam back in may,a very nice lady told me that on the final exams the examiners would be looking very closely,at the papers,i.e workings out,because quote there AIC the CAA will endeavour to try and help every candidate still in the national system to progress through it, or words to that effect

[clear prop!!!]

Dan

Get real...did YOU get 100% in all exams?? http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/rolleyes.gif

Mad Jock is right, the exams are full of errors, to get anything near 100% would involve a lot of luck.

It's bad news rocketboots, and I feel for you, but just where do you draw the line.

What really pisses me off is the way that the National exam deadlines have been extended. If the early JAR ATPL guinea pigs had known that the could have stuck with the old system and avoided the early disasters and heartache of JAR, life would have been a breeze!

I assume you now have to sit the JAR ATPLs?

[Matt Black]

Rocketboots,

Have a look in your email.

[Fly_146]

I too know of at least one individual who has had a 5TH attempt under the national exams (and failed).

Some people under JAR have lost every credit because they failed by 1 or 2% in ONE exam, despite the mess of the system - no backing bending from the authority even for them, which is more unfair than in your case.

Unless you can prove your exam was unfair in any way, why should you get more time and a further attempt? You knew the deadlines, you knew what had to be done, and for whatever reason, you failed (regretful but true).

AND;

Yes, JAR people had UPTO a 10% mark up - but it went faster than it appeared (lasted less than a year). And it did not make passing any easier. I would have preferred it if they had resolved the REAL issue rather than all that symptom coping (free re-takes, 10% mark ups, attempts dont count till passed at least 1 exam, etc).

[rocketboots]

Matt Black
sorry but the e mail addrese that you sent it to,no longer exists.Bit unsure how to erase it.However,would it be possible,for you to send me your mail to [email protected],where ill be able to retrieve it there.Many thanks!!

[rocketboots]

Managed to get some more info on what the caa,have in store,for the people who missed out on the national exams.There stating that if you didn`t complete,all the national exams,then what there allow you to do,is to with the discretion of an approved training provider,allow you to forgo the 650 hours of ground training school,but you still have to sit all of the examinations,i.e 14 i think!!!
Great,so thats another 2000 pound for the course notes,plus phoned around a few schools,and they wont allow you to do it,or if they do,they want you to buy there notes,and attend some form of course,which to be fair to the ground schools,they have been messed around by the CAA just as much,so why should they have to bend over and be flexible,when the CAA won`t.This is just decaying in to a farce.Sorry but sitting exams again in the subjects that i have already passed is not on, thats like saying to a medical student studying to be a doctor that all of his exams that he has passed in previous years or months no longer matter,and that were taking them away.Can you honestly see this happening????

[scroggs]

Rocketboots,
apologies if you've already been down this route, but I feel that the only way to approach this is by direct contact with the CAA and Flight Crew Licensing. Reading your posts it would seem that most of your information has been gathered by word of mouth, and I think that you'd be far better off getting a specific ruling on your case from the people themselves. As you suggest, if enough people do this than the CAA may relent and offer a further resit. However, as others above have said, the changeover to JAA licensing is a matter of UK and EU legislation, which isn't negotiable, and there has to be a cutoff. The timetable for the changeover has been known for some years, and a couple of extensions have already been granted, as far as I understand it. Eventually the CAA has to say 'enough'! Unfortunately, you may have fallen into that trap. I hope you find a sensible way out of it.

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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[rocketboots]

scroggs
many thanks for looking in on this subject.Things are starting to look a little more upbeat with regards to this situation.I have been in contact with a few people who are now in this awfull predicement,and suggested a few ideas for,taking to the relevant authoritys.All though support is starting to gather,i still need more people to try and get some change.You are correct in stating that we should approach those at the CAA,and this is what we shall be doing very soon,but if you can offer us some level ground with wich we can arm ourselves with,then that will be great!!

[Whirlybird]

rocketboots,

Contact the CAA again. A chap I knew who looked like he might be in the same situation was told a couple of months ago that they would look at each case individually. He managed to pass all his resits as it happened, but this could work for you. Phone, write, get a name of who to talk to, don't give up. The exams are still happening, since the helicopter ones carry on until the end of the year, so it's not as though they'd have to have a special paper for you if they allowed another resit (unless its Principles of Flight). As you say, there will be others in your situation. The CAA have allowed special individual situations before, but they can't advertise it or it'd be the thin end of the wedge, but keep on trying.

Dan,

You've obviously never sat a CPL or ATPL exam. A large number of the questions are totally theoretical and have nothing to do with real life. Does every pilot really need to know that the speed of sound is 38.94 times the square root of the absolute temperature? Will a disaster happen if he/she doesn't remember the height of the ionosphere? Is the aircraft likely to crash after engine failure if he's fogotten at precisely which point in a jet engine the pressure is lowest? You're learning to jump through CAA hoops for these exams, not become a pilot, although of course some of it is useful.

Then there are the questions which are incomprehensibly worded, totally obscure, or just plain wrong. I just failed rotary Principles of Flight, which I would have said was my best subject, by 2 marks. How? Well, in at least one question I know all four answers were wrong, according to all the books I've read. They wanted to know the height of the ground cushion when you're hovering. All the books say three quarters or two thirds of the rotor diameter; the choices didn't have that, only the rotor diameter or half of it (or a couple of highly unlikely ones). So I picked one; what else could I do? Of course, a better answer is that it depends on the nature of the surface under you, but the CAA don't want clever clogs who are interested in the subject do they? Another asked about centre of gravity in forward flight, which I knew about. But I had to read the question four times, and still wasn't quite sure what they were getting at. Afterwards I realised, and knew I'd got it wrong, but not because I didn't know the answer. There were many more like that - enough for me to fail, and two marks is only one question. And this sort of thing happens all the time.

What it means is that you need to have virtually 100% of knowledge to get a 75% pass mark, unless you're very lucky. This is not bitterness on my part as I don't care that much. I've passed all the others, been told I can start the CPL(H) flying if I want to before I finish the exams, I have 3 more attempts, at monthly intervals, between now and the end of the year, and I enjoy studying P of F anyway (thank god it wasn't Engines I failed - booooorrring). But for people like rocketboots it's potentially disastrous, and BLOODY UNFAIR. So please don't make statements like that unless you know what you're talking about.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[rocketboots]

Whirlybird.
Thanks for that.Its info like this which i am truly gratefull.Just glad i`m not studying POF helicopters!.The info regards atpl h still ongoing,i wasn`t aware of!.Was there any particular reason why there exams were given a different cut of time,or is it that just individual cases are being looked at?If i don`t correspond with you again,good luck in your hoop jumping,or should i say hoop dodging

[Whirlybird]

rocketboots,

I don't know exactly, but the move to JAR for helicopters has been behind fixed wing all along. There are rumours that the national exams for CPL(H) may continue beyond this year, as there still isn't a JAR course! But I know the CAA would love to be rid of the old exams, finally. But they do have the rotary Techs monthly, Navs bimonthly, at Gatwick, until December. P of F is different from f/w, Systems also is a bit different, and we don't have to do Perf E; apart from that, they're the same. Good Luck!

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[rocketboots]

Jesus
Do you mean to say that there holding nav exams at Gatwick,which is identical to the atpl navs for those studying atpl A.Surely this can`t be???.Why in the hell are they making people trek half way round the country to shuttleworth and glasgow?.So if there still holding nav exams bi monthly,whats the harm in them letting the rest of us finish off?.
Wer`e supposed to be the next generation of U.K aviation,and were being held back by our own nations bueracracy.There is supposed to be an ever increasing demand for pilots,engineers etc yet the one body which should be helping,not hindering is doing all in its power to stop you,the one person that that wants to contribute to the ever increasing demand for aviators back.Instead there more than happy to let american pilots with a couple of thousand hours come across with a brought 50 dollar ATPL ticket do an air law exam,and human performance exam,and thats it,a nice shinny UK/JAR ATPL CREDIT.Does this suck or what!!!!!!

[scroggs]

Rocketboots,
there's not a lot more I can do or suggest, but I do think you should talk to the CAA, yourself, as soon as possible. Don't wait to get a mob of like-minded people together, you must get your case in front of them now. By all means suggest the same to others, but if you wait until you've all decided what you want to say, it'll be too late! Do it for yourself, now.

------------------
Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[Whirlybird]

rocketboots,

Sorry, I think I'm confusing things. Until now all techs were at Shuttleworth and Glasgow, and ATPL navs. CPL navs were at Gatwick. From next month ALL national exams are at Gatwick, or so the CAA told me when I phoned up - I wasn't best pleased, since Shuttleworth is a bit closer for me. But the main point is they are happening. Scroggs is right, put your case to the CAA NOW! Good luck.

------------------
Whirly

To fly is human, to hover, divine.

[rocketboots]

Thanks guys
i`ll be putting pen to paper shortly.Just did`t realise by the lack of replies that either everyones passed,or there not bothered either way.I`m sure that this isn`t the case,and that people are perhaps unsure with the way to approach this.

[touch&go]

Lack of replies,

Well we all had to live under the 3 and your out rule for years, we all knew that JAR was coming in, and the date for the cut off of the national exams,

Sorry for being blunt, but you fall at a hurdle, you pick yourself up and jump it again, thats what we all have had to do,no one said it would be easy.

I think you should put all you energy in to passing the exams next time and not criticize the CAA on a worldwide internet site for having rules.




[This message has been edited by touch&go (edited 17 June 2001).]

[rocketboots]

Touch&Go
sorry to have offended you and the CAA.I didn`t mean to offend you or your society,and will obviously not ever mention the fact that the CAA,are not perfect,and you can go back to your perfect world,knowing that your o.k Jack!!,in the confidence that your governing body has the sun shining out of its a"£$e.Im asking for constructive comments not,"Tough,get on with it comments".You do not know me,and you have no idea how many hoops iv`e jumped through to get this far!!!!
Of course i forget your be the sort of chap who is 1% away from passing everything and waiting for the issue of a cpl ir frozen atpl,but will brush yourself down,and go and do another 14 exams"I DON`T THINK SO".You would be fighting tooth and nail like the rest of us

[AirScream]

RocketBoots

I feel for you mate. If it transpires that you go for the ATPL exams, and I hope you are spared that, and the CAA exempt you from an approved course then you can have my JAR-ATPL notes, once I'm thru with them.

Obviously you want to avoid this rigamarole but it seems all I could offer to assist.

[ATCNightmare]

Being that I failed a couple of JAA exams recently by 2%. I have to say the last thing you need is people saying "All it takes is hardwork blah blah - you only have your self to blame blah blah", especially if you worked as hard as you could.

I thought the purpose of this website was to help, advise and encourage each other not "I told you so".

Some people are naturally better in exams than others - Lucky You - I am not one of them and have to say that smart arse comments about getting 100% or passing all first time makes you a better pilot are **** (you can fill in the blanks).

My Uncle flew for BA until he retired infact at one point was involved in the recruitment of cadets. GUESS WHAT - he sat his exams (albeit under the old system) the MAX number of times possible before passing.

[Parish]

Rocketboots I understand your frustration, I had the same problem with my Nav's and got 74% on my last go at Met, had to do the lot again, stop moaning and get your head in the books, seems to me you spend to much time on your computer writing to other PPruners, GET ON WITH IT AND STOP MOANING!!.

[touch&go]

Didn't mean to offend you, just tried to get you to focus on passing your exams, I like everyone else cannot fix this for you, you need to talk to Gatwick or get you head down and do what ever it takes to get your dream, and stop feeling sorry for yourself.

I never kick someone when there down, sorry if it felt like I did.



[This message has been edited by touch&go (edited 17 June 2001).]

[AMEX]

Under the old system, I too failed to secure a partial for at my first attempt with the navs. It hurts, it's depressing and very costly but I started all over again. Today it doesn't matter anymore and to be fair my past and imminent employer didn't care much about it.
A mate of mine was under the even older system where you had to take the CPL's first. Things changed and he had to then do the ATPL's as the CPL became irrelevant. It was unfair and certainly not the way he had planned it. Still, he got himself together and went for it. He flies a 75 and couldn't care less about what happened few years ago, although he was seriously affected and upset by the situation.
What about this guy who was serving in Bosnia when his exams ran out. Tried to get an extension from the CAA and failed to achieve it. Unfair but that's how it goes for many.
Don't get me wrong, I do hope you will succeed in your deal but don't expect too much and (unfortunately) get back to work.
Someone mentioned the fact that the post on this thread lacked of encouragement.
Not quite, I think some of us have been through that and did share their experience even the unpleasant ones.

Good Luck Anyway
http://www.stopstart.redhotant.com/aircraft2/757300a.gif

[Matt Black]

RB,

Have re-sent message to new email.

MB

[rocketboots]

Touch@go
Sorry to wade into you me old mate,just that the wife,kids etc,are taking this preety bad,probably worse than i am.Its just that wev`e all sacrafised an awfull lot to get to this stage,and doing it all again isn`t a option for us.If i was single,had money, then hey!,you can get your head round it and go again,but i hear what your`e saying.

[kingrounded]

Rocketboots!

Know exactly how you feel. I missed one of two exams last month by 3%. My fault I know - however can't quite handle the idea of chucking it all in now. Certainly won't be able to afford to start the ground exams again. There are of couple of people I know in the same predicament and all we want is to be allowed the sittings that we would normally be entitled to. They should not have let people in the system if they wern't prepared to see them through that system. There are an awful lot of people that I know of who were allowed to join the UK exam system very late in the day. Obviously the CAA couldn't turn down the chance of squeezing more money out of us. I actually spoke to Alan Cole (Head of Examinations) last month and he said that there were 250 people still left in the system. I imagine that a fairly large number of those people did not manage to pass all the exams in June. Surely there is something we can do collectively. If I come up with anything or hear any news I'll let you know. In the meantime I'll keep an eye on this forum. Chin up!!

[rocketboots]

Kingrounded
What an excellent point that you make,about letting people join the system,but not be able to complete it.Thats another point i`ll,get down.Good luck,and keep the faith!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In Feb 1999 I was warning people on this forum that unless they took the CAA ATPL exams ASAP then they were indanger of being cut off by the deadline. The deadline then got moved back no less the 4 times making me look stupid.

There were always going to be some poor people who got caught out by the final final this time its for real deadline. Unfortunately its you.

If I were in charge I wouldn't concede to your letters. Harsh I know - Hell I am the champion of Wananbes everywhere, but you've got to establish a cut - off somewhere and there is little else the authoity could have done to publicise the event much as I hate to side with the CAA...

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