EK 25/3 Pilot forum Agenda .pdf

[LTF]

It's an EK Union revolt!

[harry the cod]

Some good stuff in there. A few, however, that I'm not sure about.

Why would you need 2 hours before departure? I don't know any airline that operates with a FDP as restrictive as that. Took us long enough to get the current report time!

Avoiding certain pilots? Chances are you'll only ever fly together once anyway.

A day's credit for RTGS study? This phase had only the tech exam. However, we should certainly get full credit for the sim. Leave credit should be brought back too to avoid over working on leave months.

Off 3 days over Christmas for Christians? Organising such a policy would be nigh on impossible and again, don't know many airlines that apply it. If non Christians didn't volunteer, would they be forced to work? Can't see that going down well with the locals. They celebrate it as much as we do...minus the booze of course. Well, allegedly! Datums would also need changing and most of the simulators would remain unused. Ain't going to happen. Considering December 25th is the most requested day off in the year, the fact that the Company chooses not to recognise it as such is disappointing.

Either way, a lot to look at, especially pay and hours.

Harry

[TooLow]

Good one! April Fool's day already?

[sealear]

I agree with Harry, keep it simple. In a past life I had a bit to do with union negotiations and a list of demands that long won't go down well. I say go for package improvement which in turn will (hopefully) attract more pilots and hence improve the rosters. The rest is all pie in the sky.

[desert witch]

Thanks to the PDF creators!! Hope some stuff catches on.

Not to disillusion you though...
But this Forum is for THEM to get the pilots numbers back on track with the MINIMUM salary rise. They must raise some this time anyway.
When the world goes into the next slump, most perks will be dumped again.

Some of the stuff in the PDF is spot on, some other is neverland's stuff (this is only Dubailand...).

Whoever goes, please push for the realistic stuff, things that do not cost them much and may actually stick if gradually implemented.
Like the 50% roster option for senior guys.
Or a guy to stream feedback on an FCI or other technical without an ASR or CSR. After all, who of us wrote back saying: Your new G/S from above is to rofl, specially in these destinations...

Good luck to those going. Don't get carried away... 😅

[Busss]

I do agree we should speak as a one body focus only on most relevant stuff. Keep it short and simple.
Things which will stop ppl leaving and attract new joiners - salary increase , rosters and lifting upgrade age restriction for FOs.

[General Dogsbody]

Pay us More, Work us Less!!

The rest will sort itself out..

[Pattz]

Some very good stuff there! But how about for the education allowance to also cover the nursery years as well. For FOs with toddlers in nursery it becomes quite an expenses, especially with everything else being so expensive here.

[thatwasclose]

Minor point but ....
Children are allowed in the flight deck on the ground . The restriction is in 8.3 and the security chapter says refer to 8.3 . That means ( movement )

[felixthecat]

1) Fewer hours
2) Salary increase (+20% salary to keep us where we were 2 years ago)
3) more monthly days off
4) hours credit for leave (approx 5 per day of leave) and sim
5) less punitive culture.

Strangely that will make the airline more attractive and recruitment will improve.

[Oldaircrew]

Minor point but ....
Children are allowed in the flight deck on the ground . The restriction is in 8.3 and the security chapter says refer to 8.3 . That means ( movement )

No they’re not(OM-E 10.5.4.1)

[dusty777]

Sadly, anything that increases cost will likely be a non starter. The city and the airline are broke. The pharaohs will continue the slave like conditions.
:ugh:

[5star]

reading some of these posts and also the ones on the facebook group...:ugh: sorry to wake you guys up, but you really think anything will change here....you really think they will do something.... better wake up.... go ahead and waste your day off.l.l
it’s a race to the bottom, and as long there is no management shake up -big style- nothing will change...

[Talparc]

If you don’t like it just leave!!

[thatwasclose]

No they’re not(OM-E 10.5.4.1)

Still think they are . It’s the same line as in chapter 10 of oma which says refer to 8.3 which is flight . Oma supersedes om e ?

[KindolFaret]

After reading that document I can only feel embarrassment.

Total disconnection with reality and lack of professionalism.

Sorry to say but we are our worst enemies.

[MusingMonk]

After reading that document I can only feel embarrassment.

Total disconnection with reality and lack of professionalism.

Sorry to say but we are our worst enemies.

Can't agree more.

[glofish]

Nice try.

As i foresee it, some Submuppet will show up pretending to substitute the Megamuppet. He will welcome everybody, thank for the many inputs, not the letter which has to be disregarded because the law does not allow unionised opinions.
He will gladly respond to the multiple questions, however excluded were all subjects regarding rosters, leave, financial stuff and housing/education fees.

So, Gentlemen, the first question please ......

[General Dogsbody]

Its Shooting for the stars.. Granted, but its NOT beyond the Type of Working Conditions that many Pilots have in many airlines around the world.

Its worth a Try...

Otherwise the only answer is too leave.

[MainFleetSkipper]

Rostering = Lifestyle = Happy well rested productive pilots = Pilots staying for the long term. Just my 2 cents (minus 5% of course....)

[donpizmeov]

Agreed. Give some control over roster by getting ride of those stupid rules and life will improve quickly and greatly. Also man the individual fleets so all leave can be taken and attrition will decrease.
But as gloi has stated. ATC is the instigator and he ain't about to change a thing.

[The Outlaw]

Quit rocking the boat and let the company die the slow undignified death that management has set forth. Who are you to go against their plan anyway?

[RK Blue sky]

The sooner the company dies the better off so many people will be. They might not know it but it’s true.

[motojet]

In my opinion way too many suggestions in the letter. Too easy for the company to grant a few of the minor requests, ignore the important major requests and then say, "See, we're doing a lot for you pilots". Stick to a few major points.

[felixthecat]

A few points...

It is great that someone has taken the trouble to write out this PDF documenting the points that they feel should be raised at the forum, however..... I believe that this was taken from opinions gathered from 1300 of 4000+ pilots. It was the first I had heard or seen of it so I am one of the 68% who had no knowledge of something purporting to be on my behalf.

Whilst many of the points have validity, there is far too much niff naff and trivia for this stage of 'negotiation'. Giving the management a million options to claim improvement to the terms and conditions whilst skirting around the main issues of pay, leave, rostering and time off does us no good. Examples of irrelevance at this stage include EFBs, no training over Christmas etc etc, stick to the bones of the matter.

[fatbus]

Some of the points make the pilot group look childish. As stated already sick to the big issues , rosters / manpower/ pay, everything else will follow.

[777-200LR]

Felixthecat is spot on!

[AfricanSkies]

Sorry guys, but the letter reads like it was written to Santa Claus by a petulant child.


Very true. Releasing such a ridiculous list of demands in public will work against your aims.

The 5 major areas should have been identified and specific figures justified with rational arguments, which reflect the bottom line.

Calculate how much the VAT and other risen expenses costs the pilot, have a number. Calculate how much the company would have to pay for such a pay rise in toto. Offset it against the costs of staff turnover.

The bottom line is that unless the Company is feeling financial pain or corporate image deterioration, it has no motive to increase compensation and leave whilst reducing workload.

If I were a manager at EK I would dismiss this letter with significant irritation to say the least.

[aussiefarmer]

Sorry guys, but the letter reads like it was written to Santa Claus by a petulant child.

We all know maturity and common sense are only attained at age 35 (fleet specific). Surely an underage career FO has composed this.

[SunNFun]

Very true. Releasing such a ridiculous list of demands in public will work against your aims (...) The bottom line is that unless the Company is feeling financial pain or corporate image deterioration, it has no motive to increase compensation

Pretty amazing to see the desire to self censor a starting point to a negotiating based on what you think is achievable.

The Stockholm syndrome is very strong in EK Pilots and you only realize this once you're a year or two removed from it.

[Panther 88]

Pretty amazing to see the desire to self censor a starting point to a negotiating based on what you think is achievable.

The Stockholm syndrome is very strong in EK Pilots and you only realize this once you're a year or two removed from it.

NEGOTIATING? When has anything been negotiated in the ME? You don't negotiate with this company. There are no table openers to give and take. Be realistic man. The only give and take is.....you give, they take. Oh, and is there a committee that will represent pilots' wishes? Who elected the negotiation team? Contract study group? Informational picketing? ID lanyards stating, "I support the EPA" (Emirates Pilot Association)?

But also stating that going is a waste of a day off, is the same folly. Having worked in management before many of you were born, if a meeting such as this is called and no one came......"well they're not as upset/mad whatever as the noise makers on the Prune make it seem".

[radial090]

Dear all,

If a company was serious about making changes to its employee benefits, they would send out proper questionnaires, collect data and make cost effective changes to improve employee satisfaction.

A couple hours in an auditorium does not allow time or focus to seriously discuss any issues.

It may be entertaining for managers to be on stage fielding questions from the hostile mobs, employees vent and feel better but this is not how serious change in large complex organisations gets done.

If you get a chance, attend the forum and vigorously voice your concerns, in addition everyone can email our relevant manager and HR continually with your personal list of concerns on a daily or weekly basis.

[777-200LR]

If they don’t keep it simple and to the bigger issues then expect the May email to look something like this:

-We are issuing all pilots with a tie clip. Many of you were concerned about your ties flapping in the wind from the bus to the aircraft.
-We have approved the “Avoid to Fly With Staff#”. We don’t want anyone flying with a colleague they don’t want to.
-We have informed IT to come up with a fix to enable the EBT to have a shade of blue as many of you were concerned about your eyes getting tired during the 0001-0559 time period.
-We have also enabled a bid option to have a Christmas free PPC. However due to bid limitations, you can only select LOWEST option for this bid.

Naturally as there were a large number of requests, it could not be possible review them all. We thank you for your support and see you next year!

[Fuzuma]

Whilst reading that reply, you’ll be subjected to a morose tune played on the worlds smallest violin.......stolen from Yorkshire Puddings’ post.......

[Enos]

At least LTF got the ball rolling so we shouldn't shoot the guy for trying.

Like it's been said for those who manage to attend keep it simple and stick to the main points, Salary Vs Roster, remember how many emails we got about getting new BMWs it was a distraction from the main problems.

Bottom line we are not the only airline that needs a lot of pilots this year, weather they are making money or not if they don't attract pilots by upping their conditions they will be no different to Ryan and Norwegian, they couldn't crew their aircraft last year.

What did happen to the guy at Ryan Air who they blamed for the lack of pilots, hence cancelled flights or was it something to do with all the pilots needing to take leave at the same time??

[Calmcavok]

The document is fine and well, if we were working for a different airline in a different country with a proper negotiating team. We’re not

KISS

For me
> Pay
> Roster
> Seniority in bidding preferences
> Full 42 days of leave
> Relax the restrictive eswap/roster build rules

[High Energy]

The same was send to flydubai management. Same issues, same results. Blank stares and nothing happens.

[GKOC41]

It's a Christmas list more like but plenty of stuff which you'd have half a chance for if you had a Union....
Some of the comments on CRC and 24hour layovers are more like common sense or FRMS if you had a good system in place
:\

[yardman]

R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

As long as the company continues to lack respect for its employees nothing will ever change. Everything else is simply trying to put lipstick on a pig.

[The Turtle]

64 posts about 2 women flying and only 43 about your professional career speaks for itself....

Focus, gentlemen!

[desertcamel]

I can only wish you the Best outcome, for everyone who are still there. Inshallah !

[zero/zero]

64 posts about 2 women flying and only 43 about your professional career speaks for itself....

Focus, gentlemen!

... and ladies

[KippaLippa]

Probably stating the obvious....

more money
less flying
no stupid limits on how many days off (6 in a row, 15 a month, only 1 with leave etc..)

company should understand that no one who is 50% sane would move here if it wasn't for gaining more money and live an easier life.

less money... less life... less pilots.

morituri te salutant

[felixthecat]

Probably stating the obvious....


no stupid limits on how many days off (6 in a row, 15 a month, )


I wish I could get 6 in a row or 15 in a month! Those days have long gone. 9 a month is the normal these days and usually in blocks of 2 and 1, occasionally 3

[DuneMentat]

5 things that I consider critical

> back to 78 hours flying pr month (after that overtime pay at a rate that is at least double of now)
> step plus missing steps plus substantial increase in basic and pay for own sims
> no limits to amount/strings of days off
> credit hours for leave and sim
> 42 days of leave

[Arcla]

I agree with all the above. Keep it short and simple.

My list.

20% pay increase minimum (2 steps + VAT + Inflation)

78 hour OT threshold with a punitive scale. Exceed 84 hours and OT pay rate doubles. Exceed 90 and OT pay rate triples.

Credit hours for leave and sim. 3 hours per leave day. 5 hours for sim or ground duty.

Drop restrictions on rostering requests and on swaps.

Offer life style rosters in seniority.

[sandsthrudahrglass]

about 2 dozen new joiners being given a tour of the arrivals area when I returned yesterday morning, so they're still coming!

pay yes, rules yes, but I also want the choice again of where I can live in Dubai!

[PositiveRate876]

Nice Christmas list indeed. That would take 3 years to negotiate in a collective bargaining environment.


Here it might take 300 years.

[Osprey55]

This is a long-overdue list of very valid and pertinent points. Obviously, some people will view certain points as being over the top, while others may see those same points as very important. Our opinions have fallen on deaf ears for so long that now the list could be twice as long as it is.

While I could add numerous items to the list, many of my concerns are addressed in some manner already. Different to a typical negotiation with a company’s management however, is that many of the mentioned items are not really negotiation points; they are really just the bare bones minimums that ought to have been in place already.

Days off, vacation and the pay are my biggest issues. The step increment on pay is not a pay raise; it is a pre-agreed contractual item. The company may have conveniently moved all sorts of things to the policy manual so they can manipulate them without touching the contract itself but that is against the spirit of the agreement we made with them when we joined. And the spirit of an agreement is as important as the words in the agreement itself. The company has violated both the contract and the spirit of the agreement and these matters must be corrected to give us back the baseline from which we can work towards a better company all round.

XX days on a roster are set and supposed to be guaranteed days off. Days off before and after an ULR trip are a scheduling requirement but are not part of the ULR pairing. If your ULR is removed for whatever reason, the days off before and after must still remain as days off. It is ridiculous to have no control over four of your days off every time you are scheduled for an ULR pairing. Furthermore, since days off after a ULR are scheduling requirements they should be scheduled even if you have vacation after the ULR. The company cannot use vacation to cover the legal scheduling requirements. These are just two, out of many examples, of where our rosters are being violated.

Similarly, Scheduling needs to stop calling days on which we work, rest days. If we are on duty during any amount of time in a given day, it’s a work day. For example, on the 201/202 pairing, the return flight leaves New York just before midnight on the second day of the three day pairing, which is actually well into day three based on Dubai time. The flight arrives in Dubai at 20:25 having flown entirely during the third day of the pairing. Why and how can this be classified as a rest day?? The entirety of the flight takes place during the calendar day of the destination station and it’s a rest day? Ummm… no!!

Respect is clearly a major problem. The lack of respect is reflected in every correspondence and interaction with the company. Office staff who fail to answer their phones or reply to messages, and if you do manage to reach anyone its like you woke them from a deep sleep. What ever happened to basic professional phone etiquette?

Then there’s the amount of time we have to wait for the bus to arrive after a flight, the excessive time waiting for our suitcases to be offloaded from the plane, and the ridiculous amount of time waiting for those bags to arrive at the baggage belt. If we were paid till we collected our suitcases in the office, rather than chocks on, we’d have a bus, loaded with our suitcases, waiting for us after arrival instead of the other way round.

The point is that while we have many big issues to deal with, there are plenty of smaller points that could, and should, be changed immediately. We’ve often commented that many of the smaller points are ‘no-cost’ items that would have a very positive impact if there were to be an attitude change across the board.

It has been far too long that we have endured empty promises of improved rosters and adequate crew numbers. Its high time the company took the necessary steps to correct their shortcomings and make this company the first choice of airlines to work for once again, instead of the last resort that qualified pilots shy away from.

[Mach_Krit]

I don't think the sentence about the sub-humans would go down too well...just saying.

[CNJB777]

So Seaman Staynes why didn't you ASK some more seriously Non Ridiculous questions at that forum then? It was a very poorly attended Forum, and at the time the Head of accommodations was addressing us and I prophetically enquired about the Garage Ports in MS was inadequate as opposed to Meydan Heights where the company had to install new Closed in Garage ports and I asked this while living in Semmer Villas. This was early 2017 and I had no clue we were going to be forced out later that year. The meeting was coming to a close and after asking the Head of Accommodations about the situation in Semmer Villas assuring me that we're good for at least another 2-3 years, I decided to press him on another "Accommodation" issue that I believed to be pertinent, which believe it or NOT I'm now in Meydan South and face the same ISSUE that you so easily disregard. A car is for some the most expensive purchase we would ever buy in Dubai and seeing that they did it for Meydan Heights, I thought it fair that MS would get the same treatment. Remember I did this while living in Semmer and NOT knowing what my fate had in store only a few months later while being assured that will NOT BE The Case!. So I ask YOU SIR, What exactly was YOUR earth shattering questions that day again? I forgot!!!!

[CNJB777]

It will be interesting to see what they say at the forum, how it is conducted and what the general atmosphere is during the meeting.

In the past unless you were there you didn't really get the "feel" of the meeting. I've been to a couple of the forums last year and the managers that were there (DSVP / ADSVP / SVP training / Chief pilots / Managers from accommodation and manpower and planning) took as bashing, questions flying everywhere ranging from the ridiculous - bloke who thought lack of car port covers at meydan south a real priority, to the sublime - a seriously senior guy calmly asking why he was not allocated any leave - none / nada / zip and finally to the really sad - a chap who'd just got divorced purely due to the company high hours then lack of leave / days off so not seeing his wife and young family etc!! Special angst was shown to the aussie (?) muppet from manpower and planning (the guy who manages the roster system) - he thought it would be a great start to say about rosters "I am never going to make you happy!"

Could there be some sort of precis here about the way the forum went, atmosphere, responses and general feeling so that those of us that will not be able to attend will have some idea of what went on....? Thanks
So Seaman Staynes why didn't you ASK some more seriously Non Ridiculous questions at that forum then? It was a very poorly attended Forum, and at the time the Head of accommodations was addressing us and I prophetically enquired about the Garage Ports in MS was inadequate as opposed to Meydan Heights where the company had to install new Closed in Garage ports and I asked this while living in Semmer Villas. This was early 2017 and I had no clue we were going to be forced out later that year. The meeting was coming to a close and after asking the Head of Accommodations about the situation in Semmer Villas assuring me that we're good for at least another 2-3 years, I decided to press him on another "Accommodation" issue that I believed to be pertinent, which believe it or NOT I'm now in Meydan South and face the same ISSUE that you so easily disregard. A car is for some the most expensive purchase we would ever buy in Dubai and seeing that they did it for Meydan Heights, I thought it fair that MS would get the same treatment. Remember I did this while living in Semmer and NOT knowing what my fate had in store only a few months later while being assured that will NOT BE The Case!. So I ask YOU SIR, What exactly was YOUR earth shattering questions that day again? I forgot!!!!

[Deep and fast]

As the Union word is unspeakable (like at my place...) maybe you need to place the pilot workforce in a new wrapper. "The Emirates pilot representation family" or some such bull**** name. Get the point across with numbers but using terms that cannot be construed as illegal.

[14DStrasse]

Can anyone writing on this forum really impact what’s happening at Emirates, I doubt it! But hopefully we can make a few people feel uncomfortable personally and that might change attitudes.
Perception is reality if you a starved of fact and we are starved!
The Forum later this month is an appeasement exercise, nothing more, unless we take the initiative.
Whilst I ‘largely’ agree with the multiple gripes previously mentioned we are missing an opportunity. Emirates called this meeting. Why? Let’s ask them.
Simply put, what initiatives have management under taken in the last 10? years that may have brought us to our present hiatus? Let’s hear what they have to say. I think they know very well.
Let’s hear how they justify their actions. They’re not really interested in what we want at this stage but I would be very interested in their response to:
The general ‘Bully Culture’ of Flight Ops, Fleet, Training, HR, Medical Services, Housing etc towards the Pilot community. We have let these departments forget that ‘they’ are appendages. Their sole function is to provide support to their most important customer, the Pilot Workforce. If they are not able or willing to provide the necessary support they should be removed.
To make progress we need acknowledgment and accountability from management. Then we can start tabling the specific issues.
14D

[motley flight crue]

My god. What are you two last clowns on about?

[jarops]

I would like to add for the list: All pilots are required to download GABI packages, update software on the EPT from home, the telephone allowance should be increased, we use our own internet connections for operational matter.

[sealear]

jarops probably what you mean is the extra dewa cost from running your ept 24/7 at home so it can download the daily updates

[speedbirdhopeful1]

I would like to add for the list: All pilots are required to download GABI packages, update software on the EPT from home, the telephone allowance should be increased, we use our own internet connections for operational matter.

So we get 200Dhs phone allowance cheapest Internet and phone package is about 350Dhs so you are proposing to use a forum with limited time to raise issues to senior management to request a 150Dhs per month pay rise because you don’t want to use your home internet for the EPT? This is why they’ll never take us seriously.. can’t we just stick to the big headline issues like pay/roster/leave?

[KippaLippa]

speedbird,

you are right, the telephone/Internet issue is a minor one.
And you are wrong, it's not because of these things that we are not being taken seriously.
actually, it's not even a matter of being taken seriously.
We simply aren't taken into consideration.
IF a company cares about the employees and their needs and fair expectations, no issue raised in such a meeting would be considered minor or useless.
and to answer to someone else who said that if we (we, hahaha, like there is a "we") ask for several things the company will just give us the peanuts and say we should be happy because our requests were taken into account, even this is wrong. why?
for a very similar reason.... The "company" is not an abstract entity, it is our management, and these are people, who know that there is a problem.
it's not by saying that our concerns were addressed that this problem is magically solved.
If they give us the 150aed per month and say now you must be happy, they aren't fooling us, they are fooling themselves, and the numbers will tell them.
In fact, they are already trying to actually address the problem.... by calling every pilot who left in the last two years and asking why they left, and what could have made them change their mind and make them stay instead.
which is actually a better idea than doing this forum, why?
because here the only choice we have is to stay or to leave, those who stay, mainly it's because they can't leave or don't want to, hence they would stay even if nothing changes.
those who left are the ones the company has to get the information from, because they know why they left, and they know what could bring them (or someone else) back.

I am totally convinced now that this forum will be useless.

have a good day

KL

[greenfields]

In fact, they are already trying to actually address the problem.... by calling every pilot who left in the last two years and asking why they left, and what could have made them change their mind and make them stay instead.

KL


I wasn't called before I left.

I haven't been called since I left.

None of my many colleagues who have also left have been called.

[dubaigong]

If they don't know why people are leaving , it is very scary and they should not be in charge of a huge company like EK...
I am sure they know but they don't want to do anything about it because here the " if you don't like it , you can leave " is the rule.
They have been able , untill now , to find pilots to replace the one leaving so why should they change something and show a sign of weakness
Don't forget the local pride ; it's like on the road , using your indicator is a sign of weakness for most of them so they don't use it...

[speedbirdhopeful1]

KL, I’m not saying it isn’t an issue. It’s just not a big issue. The whole room collectively rolls it’s eyes when people bring up minor stuff and we create the perception of being cheap. It’s all about knowing how to play it, I totally agree that it’s an issue that needs addressed but perhaps not at the first forum where we should be presenting a united front on big issues we all agree on.

[what_goes_up]

jarops, I'd have another one. As per the uniform manual we are required to wear a watch and we were not issued one. We should all get a company Breitling... ;) ;) ;)

[nicosnoko]

Well I am leaving in June 2018... and no exit interview! so they don't care.

[PPPPPP]

The forum will be like all other management forums in all airlines. A 30sec question followed by a 10min response. After 90mins the management will leave saying they’ve engaged with the work force. This is good, but not what you want i think.

If it was me I’d go for the relevance aspect already suggested by someone above. With almost 30000 crew we are a large part of the organization. I’d phrase my questions like this....

Emirates is a world leader in innovation and as part of that company we would like to lead the industry with pilot user technology. Replacing the current EPT with the latest iPad running the latest software would both improve our ability to work and report in real time, but would also allow us to improve departmental communication. What are your views on this?

Emirates is a world leader in terms of size and reach. It looks for the best of the best in terms of passenger service and facilities. To match that it needs a top level of experienced pilots to crew the fleet, and it has become apparent over the last few years that this experience is now coming with an increased cost. Do you think that experience and crew numbers will need a higher level of financial renumeration to attract the crew to match Emirates needs?

With its Global reach Emirates covers the world. It’s multicultural workforce that come from all over the world is a defining element of this. As crew we would like a greater ability to control our ability to make use of this world wide network both through leave, roster selection and post roster release swapping. What do you think you could do to achieve this?

Just my viewpoint though.

[KippaLippa]

I wasn't called before I left.
I haven't been called since I left.
None of my many colleagues who have also left have been called.

well, I personally know some pilots who were called.
I don't know when you left, but these guys have been called more than a year after leaving ek.
and obviously I don't even know what are their guidelines for doing it, so maybe that are not even contacting everyone.

KL

[sealear]

Updates please!

[White none please]

The forum will be like all other management forums in all airlines. A 30sec question followed by a 10min response. After 90mins the management will leave saying they’ve engaged with the work force. This is good, but not what you want i think.

If it was me I’d go for the relevance aspect already suggested by someone above. With almost 30000 crew we are a large part of the organization. I’d phrase my questions like this....

Emirates is a world leader in innovation and as part of that company we would like to lead the industry with pilot user technology. Replacing the current EPT with the latest iPad running the latest software would both improve our ability to work and report in real time, but would also allow us to improve departmental communication. What are your views on this?

Emirates is a world leader in terms of size and reach. It looks for the best of the best in terms of passenger service and facilities. To match that it needs a top level of experienced pilots to crew the fleet, and it has become apparent over the last few years that this experience is now coming with an increased cost. Do you think that experience and crew numbers will need a higher level of financial renumeration to attract the crew to match Emirates needs?

With its Global reach Emirates covers the world. It’s multicultural workforce that come from all over the world is a defining element of this. As crew we would like a greater ability to control our ability to make use of this world wide network both through leave, roster selection and post roster release swapping. What do you think you could do to achieve this?

Just my viewpoint though.

:ooh:

PPPPPPP....... your profile location says Ëarth"............. but im not so sure..:hmm:

[falconeasydriver]

well, I personally know some pilots who were called.
I don't know when you left, but these guys have been called more than a year after leaving ek.
and obviously I don't even know what are their guidelines for doing it, so maybe that are not even contacting everyone.

According to my mates wife, who is shall we say, in the know, the true crewing crisis is beginning to filter upstairs beyond a few protected individuals who have up until very recently dismissed all suggestions of shortages as temporary.
It has even got to the point I’m told of finger pointing and in one case a screaming match that caused alarm on the floor it took place on.
Wether this will change anything when the cultural deficiency of not being willing to admit to a mistake is considered sacrosanct, we shall see I guess, personally I can’t see any admission of an error anytime soon.
I didn’t get a call either.

[BigGeordie]

Apparently (and I wasn't there) AAR didn't turn up. That should tell you everything you need to know.

[DuneMentat]

AAR only turned up when someone asked why he wasn't there when he was at the CC forum - if he didnt respect us enough to come down from the high castle...

[misd-agin]

No dog in the fight but would U.S. style, or long haul European airlines, rostering improve retention or hiring? The U.S. pilots at EK would be a good resource to ask about U.S. style improvements that would work in EK’s system.

Open access to the Jumpseat for commuting, PBS system for bidding (seniority based), trip trading system, allowing trips to be stacked against each other, minimum hours credit per day, etc. Depending upon the trip length and sign-in times, with mostly long haul flying, you could end up with 15-21 days off per month. And local guys might fly the turns maximiizng the hours per day credited.

It’s the exception to follow the entire month of the schedule you were assigned in the U.S. Access to a trip trading system allows that. One man’s vinegar is another man’s wine.

With front loading a month and back loading the following month you’re able to get 8-20 day breaks every other month if you desire.

Because of the different scheduling systems approx half of all U.S. pilots commute and few actually flew their entire assigned schedule.

Drop the monthly bids down to 80-85 hrs, while allowing higher pickup limits, with Jumpseat access for commuting and active trip trading might make EK one of the most desirable non U.S. jobs for Europe based pilots.

The sort of stuff a union would propose but we know that’s not happening.

For your sakes hopefully supply and demand problems force meaningful changes at EK.

[BigGeordie]

misd, rostering is one of the things that does need to be improved to help retain and recruit pilots. The trouble is there aren't enough pilots now to enable the system you describe and because of that we can't get new people to join. Hence there aren't enough pilots and so on and so on.

[BANANASBANANAS]

misd, rostering is one of the things that does need to be improved to help retain and recruit pilots. The trouble is there aren't enough pilots now to enable the system you describe and because of that we can't get new people to join. Hence there aren't enough pilots and so on and so on.


Quite right Geordie,

Emirates has held off from giving a substantial pay rise for so long that they have well and truly painted themselves into a corner.

It's not rocket science to realise that the company MUST address both retention and recruitment and that the only way left to do that is with $.

And, to be honest, the negative inertia from most employees is now such that it would have to be a VERY substantial increase in $ to have any effect.

Local culture will therefore be tested like never before as they are reaching the point where they have to either lose face or run the airline into the ground.

[donpizmeov]

It would seem even present recruiting numbers, as large and unrealistic of being met as they are, still only plan on 30 days leave per year. Until they remove this type of thinking it ain't gonna change.

[felixthecat]

It would seem even present recruiting numbers, as large and unrealistic of being met as they are, still only plan on 30 days leave per year. Until they remove this type of thinking it ain't gonna change.

It's a shame that they still advertise it as 42 days. No mention on their recruitment of generally only getting 30 :(

[GLOBAL AV8OR]

Not to water-down the major issues at all...
I’m just curious -
Did anyone ask them to justify the glaring lack of information to the pilot body and, even the rest of the company (except the cabin crew), regarding the death-on-duty incident in EBB? I find it beyond belief that not a single notification or simple statement of fact (with the required “we await the results of the official investigation”) has been uttered by any senior leadership figure from HH down.

[sluggums]

Like every other issue, they couldn’t give a cr*p. As long as they’re ok...

[27k]

I'm surprised that most of the FO's I fly with who have only been here for max 3 years expect massive changes from the forum just held today. Did you not investigate before joining EK? Nothing much since then changed dramatically.

[Emma Royds]

Did anyone ask them to justify the glaring lack of information to the pilot body and, even the rest of the company (except the cabin crew), regarding the death-on-duty incident in EBB? I find it beyond belief that not a single notification or simple statement of fact (with the required “we await the results of the official investigation”) has been uttered by any senior leadership figure from HH down.

To be fair, if we are notified of the passing of one of our flight deck colleagues, then the cabin crew are not informed and vice versa. From time to time we do see a book of condolence in departures for a cabin crew member that passed away and none of us are officially notified.

I am sure Corp Comms will be wanting to ensure that EBB is treated no differently.

Not that I agree with the above however!

[desert witch]

...the true crewing crisis is beginning to filter upstairs beyond a few protected individuals who have up until very recently dismissed all suggestions of shortages as temporary.
It has even got to the point I’m told of finger pointing and in one case a screaming match that caused alarm on the floor it took place on.
... personally I can’t see any admission of an error anytime soon.

I had it confirmed, by an insider, that things are rocking up there, 6th and 7th floor.
What they are ready to do about it: Prop up recruitment. Lower requirements are already in place.
Problems forecasted with that mindset:
* It is obvious to ANYONE that the extra cash used in recruitment and training is a waste compared to retention (not to mention inexperience risks and costs)
* More guys failing their initial course. Who can blame a Dash8 guy thrown mercylessly into the 777 grinder machine.
* Big gap in the upgrade timeframes, when the low hour guys already recruited do not meet the upgrade criteria. No one to upgrade within 4 years. And more fails.

Forum already took place. I was told Mr H laughed visibly when reminded that if steps had been followed we would have a 18% higher salary.
They still do not acknowledge there is a problem. And they won't.
There are jobs out there. Guys going to China (China!!!), Korea, LCC, Turkish, or even jobless taking a break and getting a job later. And there is no problem.
Couple of carriers went bust lately. No one joined here. And there is no problem.

Makes one wonder. Who will be blamed when we cancel more flights due to crewing issues. How long until it reaches TC or ShA.
Even then, what are they going to do? A 1% salary increase for all Flight Deck is roughly 16 million AED. I don't see anyone taking the chance of being fired for mentioning the big boss a 10% increase.
So keep rowing. There is no problem.

[BigGeordie]

If they think a 1% pay rise is expensive wait until they see what 0% costs.

[Plank Cap]

Interesting isn't it, I thought to myself as we taxied out past 12 parked pax 777s at DWC only 4 days ago.... they've been there for a while (months), presumably still accumulating monthly lease and maintenance costs (even if the parking is free...!), whilst being totally unproductive.

Anybody taking the hit upstairs for what's going on there.....? Still, keep salaries low and spend nothing on retention of staff, verses spend big on recruitment, and all is well.

Cannot believe parking so many expensive assets was actually in the game plan for this financial year. Just seems to be no accountability for some of the messed up decision taken here. I mean, seriously..........?!

[trimotor]

Parked aircraft...as related to me recently, CPB announced at a recent wash-up, that the only options they had to resolve the manning (pilot) issue is to park aircraft and get the pilots to stop spreading malicious things on social media.

Really? That's the limit of their imagination?

I don't think the concept that whatever anyone posts is true as the posters see it is understood by the hierarchy..I very much doubt negative things posted around the web are deliberate lies..they are truths as perceived by the posters affected by them.

If any 'commanders' made operational decisions that cost as much as many dubious actions we have witnessed from senior management in the last 10 years, they (the commander) would be packing their bags, pronto. Accountability? NIL!

[allaru]

Re the parked aircraft....My guess is the deal they have means that for now they don't foot the bill...otherwise theres no way they would be taking that sort of loss. its 100s of millions of dollars sitting around idle. But for sure someone is paying for it and its just a matter of time before they jack up.

[gl69]

My airline just announced that there is no pilot shortage. They have received thousands upon thousands of qualified pilot applications and feel they have the pick of the litter as the saying goes. Yet they just gave us a 16% pay raise to match Delta Airlines.
If you compare the statements and actions of the two airlines one would quickly conclude that someone is doing things right and some airline is doing things the wrong way. Do we really need to identify which airline is which?
It is not that hard yet Emirates continues to compound their problems with bone headed decisions and face saving ideas that bring the airline down and prevent good pilots from applying to EK.