----- FAA vs JAA -----

[darrylpeters]

I am a wannabe Airline pilot and have only just had my first trial lesson. On a recent trip an English flight school I asked my flight instructor about doing a JAA PPL in USA. He claimed that it was not worth doing a JAA PPL if I wanted to go all the way. Basically he said don't follow the JAA route if you plan on going all the way (for a CPL then ATPL). Rather he suggested that I take the FAA route.

He claimed that I would be able to fly with an FAA PPL in the UK with some clubs so I should go for that first. He also claimed that The JAA route cost a lot of money for nothing. He claimed the FAA route was cheaper and a little quicker too. I have spoken to a few flight instructors and one thing I will say is he was honest.

He also claimed British airways aside, most airlines would welcome an FAA license.

What I want to know from you guys is:

Which route do you recommend. Please try an use some logic in your response. Don't tell me JAA cos your European, or FAA cos your not!!

Has anyone out there had any experiences that would be beneficial for me to know.

By the way I am British resident if that matters.


P.P.S. Mr. moderator please forgive me if I have posted this in the wrong forum.

[Evo7]

You can fly a G-reg aircraft in the UK on a FAA PPL (with some restrictions, of course).

If you're an ab-initio Wannabe, then to fly for a UK airline you have to have, as a minimum, a JAR-FCL CPL/multi-IR with ATPL 'knowledge' (i.e. the frozen ATPL). I'm sure he is wrong about you being welcomed with a FAA licence.

However, there are some small signs that it may not always be a case of JAA or FAA - I think that it has just become easier to convert a FAA IR to a JAA IR, for example. Other changes might follow. Or they might not.

If you can live and work in the USA you could, of course, go down the FAA route and fly there.

(several edits to try and give that ramble a semblence of clarity :) )

[englishal]

Tricky one....

In the past, and especially for older gits, I would recomment the FAA route. This is mainly for financial reasons - it IS a hell of a lot cheaper to get the FAA ATP, if you get employed for a couple of years as an instructor in the US. Its is fairly 'easy' to convert FAA ATP to JAA ATPL, but to get an FAA ATP you NEED 1500 hrs, which is fine if you can work for a couple of years in the US. Working in the US on a 'student' visa for a couple of years is quite possible, or used to be anyway. I think that with recent events, the US is tending to scrutinise foreigners a bit more closely, and so you may run into problems on this front.

Licence.....You can fly on an FAA licence in the UK (day / VFR), but theres no chance you'll be able to fly a G reg (UK) aircraft on one (by this I mean big jet), unless you convert to JAA - so all big airlines, BA, Virgin, etc etc are out. You may find employment around the world flying US registered (N reg) aircraft, but remember to continue being employed as a pilot in the US you just have the legal right to work there, which means green card or US passport. Otherwise, no one will even bother looking at you unless you're fortunate enough to hook up with someone like Ozzy Osborne and fly his Gulfstream for him ;)

Also depends on how quick you want to get into the right seat of a Boeing. In the UK its possible to go from zero to Frozen ATPL in around a year I think, which puts you in good stead to be employed by the airlines. In the US it will take probably 2 years, but remember you'll come out with 1500+ hours and an ATP ( nothing frozen either).

Cost....US, for zero to CPL / ME / IR, about $20,000. So technically for around $30,000 or so you could have an ATP (if you get employed as an instructor to get your hours). UK.......zero to fATPL, will probably cost £50,000:rolleyes:

Swings and roundabouts really....I myself would opt for the FAA route (I would, my wife is American;)), as you get to spend a couple of years in the sun if you go to Cali or Florida. The US system is very good, you get to see loads of interesting places, all sorts of environments, and you come home an experienced pilot. However if you are itching to earn £18k a year, operating the gear and flaps on a Boeing, then do your training in the UK;)

Cheers
EA:D

[Baldie Man]

Hello Darryl,

Firstly the answer to your question lies with what country you'd like to live and work in. Only you know that. A JAA licence will in theory mean that you can fly for any of the JAA member states in Europe. I say "in theory" as some JAA countries are having trouble accepting this.
As for "worth" then I would have to say that the JAA CPL/IR with frozen ATPL will be harder to achieve as a result of the sillybus being changed from just CAA lines. Anyone on an ATPL groundschool will know what I mean when I say it is confusing at times to say the least. But as a result of this the sense of achievement when you pass will be greater than the FAA licence largely thanks to the question bank not being released over here, FAA questions are. At the end of the day a JAA licence is harder.
Flying for the majors in America will mean you'll have to have a degree as this is one the US airlines requirements and they usually require substantial hours before taking you on too whereas in the UK you can sneak in with as little as 200 hours if you're lucky.

Hope this helps and if someone posts on this thread called Gorky (Ronchonner) then take his post with a pinch of salt. He is here to show that there is a shallow end to the gene pool that's all.

BM.

[Gin Slinger]

To work in Europe, you must have a JAA licence.

If you're taking the modular route to your JAA fATPL, then an FAA PPL or any ICAO PPL for that matter is perfectly acceptable for entry into an ATPL theory course or JAA CPL et al.

[JJflyer]

Well.

I have been flying and working on a FAA licence since 1998. All of it contract work.
Iwant to work in Europe. Thus I will need to get a JAA licence. There is no way around it, unless you are willing to fly on a validation and fear about changing rules and requirements all the time.

As far as cost is concerned, FAA might be cheaper to start with. But remeber you have to spend a while in US and licing expences, depending on the location, can be horrendous.
At the end of the day you will still need to get your JAA ATPL and this is an added expence. Then if you work ing on contracts you will be out of work for a minimum of 6 months. Add the loss of salaries and out of currency. Multiple proficiency checks when you return to work. EXPENCIVE
Why not go the JAA way in the first place. If you then want to get an FAA ticket, there should be no problems of doing this (DOJ ??).

[gorky]

FAA is not so bad, you can work as a cfi and log time like I did.
JAA is more based on the theory, if you want succed, you need both, FAA for the hours and JAA because europe is the only place where you can work(on a plane bigger than a C401).
I dont think there is one best way, but i think there are several ways to not to follow and the first one to avoid is to give 90'000 euros to one of these crap flight schools who will tell you :"write ox... on your resume, how close of this do u want be or your office at 30'000 feet".
this is BS, believe what you want, make your own politic, but do not believe these people working for flight schools.they want ONE thing:YOUR MONEY!
aviation is changing every 6 months.
I know personaly somebody who was responsible for the marketing of a flight school.he told me he was just calculating the price to train a pilot and that s all! they dont care if you find a job or not, if your experience is enough to join the market.
and you know what? this guy told me: if you want a job, better to go west.no east, no south but west...
JAA is now so expensive, that airline will have a real problem to find experienced pilot.they dont want guys with 200h. they want guys with 2000h, turbine experience, commercial experience...
Go in the USA!you will come back with confidence,with a real flight experience ...USA train more than 10'000 pilots everyyear, because they are the best!
Europe train how much? 1000 pilots maybe more, maybe less a year, with 200 hours total time, what is that?how many give up after 2 years of job prospect? 50%, maybe 80%.
JAA with 200h? nowayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[Baldie Man]

See what I mean? :rolleyes:

[Gin Slinger]

Gorky, judging by the quality of your statistics, you'd never be able to pass the JAA ATPLs anyway - basic numeracy is essential.

When you went for a job, your CV would provoke a brief giggle before being binned - literacy is considered essential by employers.

You're not descended from the Hartlepool monkey by any chance?

[Wiggums]

Englishal: When you say it's fairly easy to convert from FAA to JAA are you considering the costs? Soon I will have a FAA ATP, and I am interested in getting a JAA ATPL, however, it will be very costly. Below is my preliminary break down of the costs, if anyone can see problems please let me know.

Ground School --
ATPL Ground School -- £1,950.00 $3,081.00
ATPL Test Fees -- £700.00 $1,106.00

IR/CPL Conversion --
15 Hours IR (in US) -- £1050.00 $1,680.00
AC for UK flight test -- £780.00 $1,232.40
170A Flight Test Fee -- £150.00 $237.00

Misc --
IR Flight Test Fee -- £578.00 $913.24
CPL Flight Test Fee -- £578.00 $913.24
MCC Multiflight -- £2,300.00 $3,634.00
--------------------------
Totals -- £8086.00 $12,796.48

Over £8000 is pretty sizeable sum of money, especially when right now I am being paid in US Dollars. Plus it will easily take six months to study for the ATPL exams, and another couple months to take all the exams and flight tests. It is possible, but anyone going FAA should consider the large cost of converting to JAA.

Wiggums.

[marpoo]

hey Wiggums,
are you training in the US as darrylpeters has asked. if so can we have a breakdown of the monies that you have spent and the school that you are training at?

[Wibbly P]

Mr Peters,

Take a deep breath and sign up to a distance learning course. It'll cost a few quid but only really a drop in the ocean compared to the overall cost.

Have the patience to sit down and learn all of this theory and pass the 14 exams and you will be in a very good position with this under your belt. It's not an exciting prospect but why not get the boring bit out of the way first.

Either that or take out a huge loan do loads of flying then run out of money half way through then bitch and moan on the pprune how difficult it all is.

Mr P

[Baldie Man]

You need 150 flying hours before you can enter ATPL groundschool unless you are on an integrated course.

[pil]

i always thought that the pre requirement for ATPL ground school is a PPL, no min hours.

[Wibbly P]

Correct,

For the Theory it's a ICAO PPL but no minimum hours. The 150 hour requirement is to start the CPL mod flying course. However I should have mentioned that.

[Wibbly P]

Mr Peters,

Get a PPL then.... blah blah blah

blah blah.....

....blah blah... bitch and moan .....blah blah blah...

Mr P

[Wiggums]

marpoo: I did train in the US and the cost came out to around $19k. This includes getting all three instructor ratings, initial, IR, and multi. However, this was two years ago and the prices have gone up significantly since then. Also, I worked at the FBO so I got a discount on the aircraft and sometimes free instruction.

If you can still get the VISA, and work in the US after getting instructor ratings training in the US is a pretty good deal. However, instructor jobs are a lot harder to find over here right now then they were a year ago.

[darrylpeters]

Thanks all, for your replies.