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Lascaille
29th Jul 2018, 01:33
Agreed... we are just thinking aloud.. given the lack of any real facts, and as you say perhaps some things we will never know..

Yup. I find the 'how' and the 'who was on the ground' and the 'where' of it very interesting, but the 'ordered by' and 'why' considerably less so.

The fake indignation and posturing is also so pathetic and feigned, Skripal was a traitor who revealed the identities of - so the FT claims - over 300 agents. Were they all in safe countries where they'd 'only' have to suffer 20+ years in jail? Somehow I think not. I feel for the police officers, Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess but there are risks associated with 'harbouring' and also literally millions of people suffering in Libya and Iraq after we 'liberated' them from their hardships of 'having a reliable electricity network' and 'having a government which actually controlled more than 10% of the country'.

Act indignant less and get better intelligence sources. There's plenty more like Skripal living here. They've got old enemies who are starting to think think about putting their affairs in order and then settling old scores.

Krystal n chips
29th Jul 2018, 04:46
(I will admit to a certain admiration for George Galloway as a word smith). .


. I'll admit to some history with George Galloway. He was a regular correspondent to my Minister many years years ago, and I was often asked to draft ministerial replies to the questions he asked. I also appeared on a TV chat show, where he was one of the guests, and had time to talk to him off-camera. To be honest I found him to be intelligent, to have an excellent command of the English language, and to be a very convincing individual. I didn't dislike him at all, in fact, something that surprised me as I was expecting too, simply based on the content of some of his correspondence that had crossed my desk.

However, that bit on Talk Radio is, to put it simply, total and complete bollocks.

It's been a while since another appendix was added to the already extensive autobiography and, just like the fabled London bus, two come along at once although one did make an appearance earlier ...

Would you care to explain who "my Minister " was, this does sound very Sir Humphrey really, and, which TV chat show you were invited to appear on, and in what capacity along with the topics to be discussed. ?......possibly you were selected due to your prior media involvement with both the BBC and RTE ( this was offered in respect of tax and self-employment status readers will recall ) but it's still intriguing as to why such a prominent scientist and high level civil servant should be filming on the Broadwater Farm estate.

Misleading information.....hmmm ? well there was the "snippets of info " post about various agents, there was another concerning the lethality of agents and why only extensive lab facilities would be required, but, a few months later, seemingly anybody with basic lab skills ( and a garage ) could have dispensed the agent into the now infamous bottle. There would appear, to the untrained mind ( such as mine ) to be a slight contradiction here.

Then we have the thoughts on simplicity and why many people, strangely, feel otherwise. Along with a rather detailed post mentioning Russia and why the source and motives could only have come from Russia.....irrespective of the silence from officialdom in the form of the UK Gov't which, as others have suggested, could possibly be a case of political rhetoric and self promotion first, thinking before engaging larynx ( brain not included ) second because with such a prominent case, it's all gone very quiet really apart from the headlines in today's "Sunday Mirror " that is.

Thankfully, due to one public spirited citizen ( and a bicycle ) the investigative team can now stand down because they clearly lacked the deductive expertise, and lets not forget the suggested "M.O" here, to solve the case within days ! ..

Pontius Navigator
29th Jul 2018, 07:40
The pop up Ad at the foot of the page was Brilliant;

V.I.Pop
Pre-poop toilet spray

Can you think of a more appropriate Ad?

😅

Nige321
29th Jul 2018, 10:10
Course you did...................
Retail logistics is similar no matter what retailer you talk to.
Minimum stock to meet Sales, because it costs money to overstock
High value items treated very differently to everyday items
ANY store can tell you who bought it, at what time, what they also bought and how long they stayed in store, how they paid
because losing a £40 bottle of perfume where you make £16 is a lot more painful than losing a back of paracetemol where you make 20p.
This technology isn't exactly knew..............

Racedo
Please stop... Boots isn't your average retailer.
They have and always have had their own way of doing things.
Your imaginative stock control may be tue of some stores, but NOT Boots...

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 10:30
Many here are ignoring the points I've made repeatedly about the nature of the "park". Stop thinking about a park that you might find in London, full of flowerbeds etc, and instead imagine what Queen Elizabeth gardens might REALLY be like. I cycle across it regularly (when it's open). It was open all the time after the Skripal attack and was not, as far as I am aware, ever closed and searched as an area of interest at that time, as it's some distance from the other contaminated locations and the area where the Skripals were attacked. I've copied and annotated maps below that show where the gardens/park is in relation to the other sites of interest. Note that the river forms a very effective barrier to heading South - the first crossing point on the route from the Skripal house (on foot or by cycle) is at Queen Elizabeth gardens, on to the Town Path across to Harnam. There are plenty of places to park a car discreetly, with no CCTV coverage, on the streets around the Harnham end of the Town Path.

This is a map showing the relevant areas and the most direct walking/cycle route from Sergei Skripal's house to the best exit from the city (in terms of no CCTV coverage) to the South West. Note that you cannot get out of Churchfields to the South, the river forms a barrier plus the state if fenced all around at that side:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1920x1109/80_skripal_map_1_0ed628b6ba627fde389830accdef7b54b88a3b1c_53 929df91f1403799b09744602abcdfa47a76bf7.jpg

This is a map showing the area of Queen Elizabeth Gardens in more detail, with the Town Path across the river. This is the path that has little-filled ditches either side and is generally a bit of a mess:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1920x1109/80_skripal_map_2_38ea5e90ad2bef03c1a5bf75bd9a92aeb1d70b69_1f 228031cebb5b4c4d307dff06fa7ef3e6283228.jpg



The gardens are a mix of well-cut grass areas, a children's play area paths alongside the river and, most importantly, a raised path/cycleway across the water meadows. There is a massive amount of undergrowth in areas of the "park", with tall reeds, alders, willows etc, plus drainage ditches either side of one or two paths filled with weeds, used condoms, cigarette packets, cans, bottles you name it. Frankly areas around there are a disgrace, as the funding for keeping it tidy was cut years ago, so lots of litter builds up in the more overgrown areas.

Very few people would venture off a raised path into the litter-filled ditches, as they are often wet. The recent prolonged dry spell means they've been dry since early June, as best I can recall. It seems quite probable that something could lay untouched in one of those overgrown, litter strewn, areas for a long time without being found.

Lascaille
29th Jul 2018, 12:14
I've copied and annotated maps below that show where the gardens/park is in relation to the other sites of interest.

Seeing as you live there I'm quite surprised that your arrow is pointing to the wrong house and that your circle isn't even vaguely centered on it.

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 12:16
Seeing as you live there I'm quite surprised your arrow is pointing to the wrong house.

Sorry, which "wrong house"?

I just put circles that encompass areas, like the road where the Skripal's lived, to indicate the general location. I didn't feel it appropriate to mark the exact location of the house, and it's not necessary to do so in terms of illustrating the relationship between the areas and the places of interest, AFAICS.

Lascaille
29th Jul 2018, 12:24
Sorry, which "wrong house"?

I just put circles that encompass areas, like the road where the Skripal's lived, to indicate the general location. I didn't feel it appropriate to mark the exact location of the house, and it's not necessary to do so in terms of illustrating the relationship between the areas and the places of interest, AFAICS.

That's cute. Your circle doesn't 'encompass' the road where they lived. At all. It doesn't even actually encompass their house.



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/410x262/asdcc_da50b2c5f43bfaae166099588f728b808c3d3b49.png

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 12:38
That's cute. Your circle doesn't 'encompass' the road where they lived. At all.



It's not cute, just a function of me drawing a circle that may not have included absolutely all of Christie Miller Road, but it did cover the area where the ONLY exit from it on to the junction between India Avenue and St Gregory's Avenue, and then the most direct route out (avoiding CCTV), South down Canadian Avenue.

Whether it's appropriate to publish a map showing the exact house on Christie Miller Road where Sergei Skripal lived is a question for the moderators here - I wasn't prepared to put an arrow pointing directly at the exact house.

Lascaille
29th Jul 2018, 12:40
It's not cute, just a function of me drawing a circle that may not have included

Their house. It may not have included their house.

KelvinD
29th Jul 2018, 12:46
Surely it is not "their house"? It is "our house" as the state has reportedly purchased it.

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 12:54
Their house. It may not have included their house.

Look, the very last thing I want to do here is get moderated for identifying on a map published here the exact house at the end of Christie Miller Road where Sergei Skripal lived. It may be OK, it may not, but I was playing safe by drawing a circle that encompassed all of the road, and the only exit from it, but not necessarily all of the houses on it.

If you want to risk getting moderated for posting a map here with an arrow directly pointing to the exact house at the end of the road, then by all means do so, but my view is that it adds no value at all to the discussion.

I was merely trying to show how, if an attacker, or attackers, were on foot the only way in and out was the start of that red line within the circle, and that if the attacker(s) wished to avoid any CCTV then the route I marked does so. A hundred metres or so East from Cherry Orchard lane there are CCTV cameras outside the Law Courts, going North up India Avenue and up to the A360 leads to an area with more CCTV cameras. Going West towards Wilton leads to another area with more CCTV cameras within about 200m or so. AFAICS, from riding around, there are no CCTV cameras anywhere on that red line I drew as a possible way out of town - that was my primary reason for suggesting that it might be a route that the attacker(s) may have used, and it's a route that ties up with Queen Elizabeth Gardens, as the entrance to that area is the first river crossing available.

flash8
29th Jul 2018, 13:05
The pop up Ad at the foot of the page was Brilliant;

V.I.Pop
Pre-poop toilet spray

Can you think of a more appropriate Ad?
You need to get an ad-blocker PN.... ))
Anyway better than "Fear of Flying" course banner....

TEEEJ
29th Jul 2018, 14:08
Escape route with no cctv and discarded evidence.

Bearing in mind council cleaning there wouldn't be much

You are still not thinking logically. If perpetrator(s) were trying to dispose of items on such a route from Sergei Skripal's house then imagine if they discarded said items in various household waste bins? The collection in the immediate and surrounding areas was Tues 6th and Wed 7th March.

For example Canadian Avenue, Salisbury SP2 7JN 6th March and Cherry Orchard Lane, Salisbury SP2 7JG 7th March.

You can run back the calendar at the following link

Rubbish and Recycling Bin Collection Calendar | Wiltshire Council - Wiltshire Council (http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/rubbish-collection-days)

VP959 provided details of a possible route.

There seem to be some on this thread looking for a complex explanation to what looks to me to be an extremely straightforward, if clumsy, operation. I've cycled the whole route, bar the path across the park that leads to Harnham (as it's still closed) and frankly it's the blindingly obvious route for anyone on foot to take to walk from Sergei Skripal's house, down across the A36 to Churchfields and then across the park and path to Harnham, avoiding every CCTV camera that's in the town centre.

When there is such an obvious route to get away pretty covertly from the scene of the crime, and that route aligns with where the discarded weapon was found, then my inclination is to accept the simple and logical solution, not go looking for something bizarre that doesn't fit what little we know.

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-97.html#post10207628

All those recycling bins would have to be collected along such a route. That opportunity for the household waste bins would have been gone in a short space of time. The other bins such as the recycling would have been collected the following week. So if the item(s) had been discarded in a household bin it would have been long gone - incinerated or in land fill. Also consider the road side bins and the bins of the various businesses and companies along the way. Take a look at a map and see just how many houses this would have entailed to cover every possible route not covered by CCTV? Think of the mountain of containers that would have to have been sorted and tested? Needle in a haystack!

Map link showing Skripal House. Now think about all the bins along various routes!

https://goo.gl/maps/ReDqS9QtqfS2

Pontius Navigator
29th Jul 2018, 14:21
Flash, following up my diversion, Pprune is available on many platforms, Ad blockers less so.

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 14:21
Wiltshire Council are pretty hot on people who leave their recycling/waste bins on the roadside around here, though. They request that bins not be put out before 07:00 on collection day and that they be taken off the roadside as soon as possible after being emptied. We had a snotty letter from them a couple of years ago for putting our bin out before we went on holiday for a week, so it was sat by the roadside full for five days, then empty for another two days. There are some who seem to get away with keeping the bins just inside their drive/front garden, but it's not that common. For our new house we had to comply with a local planning policy that demands that there be sufficient storage, out of sight from the road, for recycling and waste bins.

TEEEJ
29th Jul 2018, 14:58
Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. I state possibly a park (weren't the Skripals found on a Park bench?)

Map link to where the Skripals were found on the bench.

Greggs the bakers marked on the map.

https://goo.gl/maps/NjEevPV7qPT2

See following image showing Greggs and the covered bench.

http://cod36.ru/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/6eaeb2ad1385e8cd55a2f8a55f4c4ff6.jpg

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 15:27
If you look back to the maps I posted in post #2007 (here: https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-67.html#post10209157 ) then over towards the right of the top map I've circled the locations. They parked in the multistorey car park, having driven from his home in Christie Miller Road, walked to The Mill pub for a drink, had lunch in Zizzie, then walked back past the library through the tunnel to The Maltings, where they collapsed on a bench. I marked all those locations although I'm afraid my lack of skill at labelling an image may not make the text that easy to read.

Lascaille
29th Jul 2018, 16:12
I was merely trying to show how, if an attacker, or attackers, were on foot the only way in and out was the start of that red line within the circle, and that if the attacker(s) wished to avoid any CCTV then the route I marked does so. A hundred metres or so East from Cherry Orchard lane there are CCTV cameras outside the Law Courts, going North up India Avenue and up to the A360 leads to an area with more CCTV cameras. Going West towards Wilton leads to another area with more CCTV cameras within about 200m or so. AFAICS, from riding around, there are no CCTV cameras anywhere on that red line I drew as a possible way out of town - that was my primary reason for suggesting that it might be a route that the attacker(s) may have used, and it's a route that ties up with Queen Elizabeth Gardens, as the entrance to that area is the first river crossing available.

Yeah I'm sorry, to be honest I also found your theory of these guys just strolling into and out of the operation a bit unlikely. I know the Litvinenko matter involved the same guys flying in and out for attempt after attempt in a totally blase fashion so perhaps I should not be so hesitant, but I imagine the guys actually doing the job would have wanted a better 'out' than a 2.6km (I just traced it) walk back to their car. And your suggestion of route follows on from your "and that route aligns with where the discarded weapon was found" which isn't correct, is it? Charlie Rowley's words are that he can't remember where he found it. We also don't know for sure that it was a 'discarded' weapon and not an unused weapon.

I don't like to just snipe from the sidelines so I'll give you my version: a supposedly single-manned transit van with two guys and two supermoto bikes inside. There's no shortage of boltholes to lurk down and offload near the target, such as the site to the west of the Bemerton Heath Harlequins sports club. The van drops off the bike guys there before dawn and heads to some distant rendezvous point. The bike guys have helmets and breath guards so CCTV is irrelevant. The bikes are registered to some fake person at a fake address. The bike guys stay there until the attack time then head into town, check for weirdness and head to the target. One guy hangs back at the entrance to the culdesac so the immediate neighbours don't think see two of them and think 'weird' but instead see one and think 'bike courier'. The other rides right up to the door, pretends to knock, does his thing and is straight back on the bike. There's a couple of exits through back gardens which from the satellite map you'd assume are fenced but street view shows otherwise.

It might sound a bit James Bond but do you not think they'd do something like that purely for their own protection? Would you not do something like that if you were planning to walk up so someone's front door and spray poison over it? Would they not be assuming some type of police surveillance was in place? I'm sure a similar person in Russia would have a guard or some type of security, no?

VP959
29th Jul 2018, 16:27
I'm guessing that the bottle was found in the area somewhere around Queen Elizabeth Gardens, based on the amount of search activity going on in that area. We don't actually know what was and wasn't said by Charlie Rowley, how the police have pieced together their movements or how they have interpreted his specific answers to their questions, in the light of their detailed forensic examination of the bottle, but it's clear that the police and investigating team know far more than is being reported by the media. John Baker House was declared safe pretty quickly, for example, as have been other areas, but there was still extensive search activity going on in the area around Queen Elizabeth Gardens and across Town Path last time I looked.

I agree that your scenario with a van and motorcycles seems plausible, but it would be very high profile in that area at that time of the morning. Pedestrians wouldn't stand out at all by comparison.

racedo
29th Jul 2018, 16:42
Racedo
Please stop... Boots isn't your average retailer.
They have and always have had their own way of doing things.
Your imaginative stock control may be tue of some stores, but NOT Boots...

All stores operate on same basis....................... don't have too much stock in any store.

PickyPerkins
29th Jul 2018, 18:40
Am I the only one surprised by Rowley’s statement that the perfume bottle "came apart in his hands"?

Now, I don’t buy or use perfume bottles, but
(a) such bottles are usually strong for their size, and don’t usually come apart in anybodies hands, and
(b) anyone planning to use one as a weapon would be careful to make it strong enough to be safe for the user.

Since Rowley is quoted as saying that he couldn’t remember "where he found it", he may also not remember when he found it. In fact he may not remember where because he can’t remember when. He is quoted as saying "a few days earlier". Doesn’t that make it very likely that he didn’t find it Queen Elizabeth Gardens? Similarly, if he found it months earlier.

I am attracted by the idea expressed earlier, that the sealed package may have sat in his house for maybe months, until he was visited by a lady friend, who then gratefully opened the package and used the perfume.

racedo
29th Jul 2018, 19:01
I am attracted by the idea expressed earlier, that the sealed package may have sat in his house for maybe months, until he was visited by a lady friend, who then gratefully opened the package and used the perfume.

Know not a single bloke who would keep perfume in their house................... well maybe Bob as he disappears at weekends and some say he is Sharon..

If have opened perfume or even unopened a lady will ask................... Whose is this ? and any bad intentions of inviting her back may go down the swanee

Pontius Navigator
29th Jul 2018, 19:21
And fake number plates would have been identify from CCTV and . . .

There are just so many holes in so many hypotheses that practically anything is possible.

PickyPerkins
29th Jul 2018, 20:10
racedo Know not a single bloke who would keep perfume in their house...................

TEEEJ Post #1703
A friend of Charlie Rowley described him as a scavenger.

Quote:
Ben Jordan, a friend, described Rowley as a scavenger who would pick up cigarette butts from the ground and often go through the trash cans outside charity shops in search of something he could use or sell.

"Anything and everything to sell, to survive, to use," Jordan said. "What the charity shop doesn't want, he will fix it or sell it or use it for himself."

racedo
29th Jul 2018, 21:41
And fake number plates would have been identify from CCTV and . . .

There are just so many holes in so many hypotheses that practically anything is possible.

nope

You use real number plates on a vehicle that corresponds to the vehicle being used.................. i.e. clone them.

G-CPTN
29th Jul 2018, 22:09
If as has been suggested, the would-be assassins used a dedicated vehicle (such as a van carrying mini-moto motorcycles) - with or without cloned licence plates it would need to be disposed-of when they left the country - leaving behind potentially incriminating evidence, whereas the KISS approach would be a simple rental vehicle . . .

flash8
29th Jul 2018, 22:17
It is likely that multiple sources of electronic signatures are combined to build a comprehensive picture, from number plate, anti-theft devices, mobile/data signals emanating from vehicle (which could arguably be isolated by placing sensors at points where traffic passes, and cross-checked with other locations), the baseband is always active on a device and so the phone may not even be in use, close-up satellite imagery, CCTV (although this is often not under the control of authorities and has to be requisitioned), data traffic analysis (can yield huge results obviously), usage of stingray at strategic locations (already done surreptitiously which is a huge topic in itself) , and all of this and more fed into big data processing farms with large-scale neural networks, designed by folk who speak linear algebra and eigenvalues as their first language.

All of this is in place today.

This allows links to be made between entities that you may in a million years imagine not possible. Although I am broadly familiar with some of the technologies, likely most of them, obviously I am not privy to what the intelligence community does, but I could hazard I think some excellent guesses working back from the Snowden leaked documents we have seen so far.

The first rule I would imagine for any so-called assassins would be to eliminate anything that could provide an electronic signature, difficult, but with planning minimizable.

The so-called leaked information about intercepted encrypted traffic in Cyprus I find wholly unconvincing for many reasons, least what I mentioned above, but also the necessity for crypto (which has a rich signature ripe for interception to deduce stuff such as endpoints) doesn't bear out, plain-text would have been far simpler and less suspicious. And nobody who has intercepted crypto and broken it will reveal such information (think of the old Enigma days). Additionally breaking post DES56 (or even DES128) think like 1970's.... crypto is not only non-trivial it is likely impossible given finite time without access to (private) keys (the only time I have seen this done was from a Snowden leak on Blackberry interception in London during some summit, suspect RIM supplied the keys in that case as they allegedly did to certain ME/Asian countries). It is likely also the security services hold private keys for most of the social media/e-mail providers negating any decryption expense (not that of course it would be possible...) but don't think the assassins were using Facebook.... or if they were "Hello Auntie Mabel" to a real Auntie Mabel would have sufficed...

I could go on, but my point is any would be assassin at this level of sophistication already knows this, amateurs I do not believe they are.

Fairly convinced they will not find an electronic footprint.

chopper2004
30th Jul 2018, 02:31
Well the funeral of the poor lass, is going to be sans pallbearers, and every effort to protect the mourners , priest et al. Apparenrly Department of Health Officials, working with the funeral directors - to ensure the service is safe. The casket will already arrive at chapel crem prior to the mourners.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/29/special-measures-protect-mourners-funeral-novichok-victim-dawn/

Krystal n chips
30th Jul 2018, 07:14
Well the funeral of the poor lass, is going to be sans pallbearers, and every effort to protect the mourners , priest et al. Apparenrly Department of Health Officials, working with the funeral directors - to ensure the service is safe. The casket will already arrive at chapel crem prior to the mourners.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/29/special-measures-protect-mourners-funeral-novichok-victim-dawn/

Covered extensively across all media, the funeral arrangements for this poor lady and her friends and family do beg a few questions. notably why no pall bearers are allowed when PHE assure the public the risk is low. That, and we are told only direct contact with the agent will result in becoming contaminated yet the poor souls body will be in a coffin......and it's not difficult to envisage the precautions the undertakers were required to implement in preparing the body for the coffin in this respect.....and presumably cremation thereafter. Which again leads to a question as to whether the agent can survive in furnace temperatures and thus pose a continued risk.


This is not being contentious, far from it as the lady deserves all the respect we offer to a deceased person and even more so in her case being a victim of unique circumstances. It's the official explanation that is intriguing and to a certain extent contradictory with the assurances to the public.

Another puzzle is this. TV chat shows are generally the preserve of "celebs" doing the promotion of themselves / book / tv series / film and serving civil servants aren't exactly top of the producers list in this respect. True, there have been one or two Met office presenters, and I'm sure the Gov't spokesman, bless him, who graced our screens during the Falklands war made a brief appearance, but, they were already in the public arena and thus well known. That, and the CS is very stringent about political neutrality. And lets be fair here, George Galloway is hardly noted for not offering controversial views and opinions, so it's just a shade baffling as to why a civil servant should be on the same show with him. A show like " Question time" with the very top level of the CS is a very different format for example and this wasn't, as far as we know, such a show.


The above query for those concerned as to "sniping " rather than simply asking politely for equally simplistic verification.

Pontius Navigator
30th Jul 2018, 07:19
nope

You use real number plates on a vehicle that corresponds to the vehicle being used.................. i.e. clone them.

He said fake person, fake address. Now you say cloned plates which implies real person, real address.
​​​​
OK, a lot of work on both sides, perps finding said numbers, police verifying all vehicles?

Effluent Man
30th Jul 2018, 07:43
Apologies if I'm wrong but I think you misunderstand cloning. They spot an identical vehicle to the one they are using e,g. Silver Ford Focus. Then they get plates for the innocent car and put them on theirs. Then the car they are using doesn't trigger the ANPR on police cars. A friend got a fixed penalty speeding ticket from Southend, a hundred miles from where she lives due to someone using this.

Nige321
30th Jul 2018, 08:38
Covered extensively across all media, the funeral arrangements for this poor lady and her friends and family do beg a few questions. notably why no pall bearers are allowed when PHE assure the public the risk is low. That, and we are told only direct contact with the agent will result in becoming contaminated yet the poor souls body will be in a coffin......and it's not difficult to envisage the precautions the undertakers were required to implement in preparing the body for the coffin in this respect.....and presumably cremation thereafter. Which again leads to a question as to whether the agent can survive in furnace temperatures and thus pose a continued risk.


This is not being contentious, far from it as the lady deserves all the respect we offer to a deceased person and even more so in her case being a victim of unique circumstances. It's the official explanation that is intriguing and to a certain extent contradictory with the assurances to the public.

Another puzzle is this. TV chat shows are generally the preserve of "celebs" doing the promotion of themselves / book / tv series / film and serving civil servants aren't exactly top of the producers list in this respect. True, there have been one or two Met office presenters, and I'm sure the Gov't spokesman, bless him, who graced our screens during the Falklands war made a brief appearance, but, they were already in the public arena and thus well known. That, and the CS is very stringent about political neutrality. And lets be fair here, George Galloway is hardly noted for not offering controversial views and opinions, so it's just a shade baffling as to why a civil servant should be on the same show with him. A show like " Question time" with the very top level of the CS is a very different format for example and this wasn't, as far as we know, such a show.


The above query for those concerned as to "sniping " rather than simply asking politely for equally simplistic verification.

I took the comment to mean VP had been an audience guest.
It's quite common for the audience to mix with the guests after chat show recording. I did it once with Wogan.
Your mind obviously offered up another scenario...

Seeing as your previous snide comments (#2004 et al...) have been ignored, I think you can take it that most of the audience a) isn't interested, or b) has blocked you...

KelvinD
30th Jul 2018, 08:48
Good explanation, Effluent. To complete it, one needs only to get the cloned vehicle back to your shed/garage, get the plates restored to the original and that is pretty much that. If the police come calling, the criminal can deny all knowledge of the other registration and a VIN check will show this vehicle is indeed what it claims to be. As the police will not have VIN details of the doppelganger vehicle that will pretty much be the end of that line of inquiry (providing the ne'er do well had disposed of the illegal plates).

VP959
30th Jul 2018, 08:50
I took the comment to mean VP had been an audience guest.
It's quite common for the audience to mix with the guests after chat show recording. I did it once with Wogan.
Your mind obviously offered up another scenario...

Seeing as your previous snide comments (#2004 et al...) have been ignored, I think you can take it that most of the audience a) isn't interested, or b) has blocked you...

I see he's still at it. For clarification, it was a local TV programme in Scotland, I was invited by the programme maker to give limited advice (pre-cleared through the MOD press office) as to the technical aspects of the issue that was the primary topic of the programme. My conversation with George Galloway was off-camera, and, as already mentioned, he surprised me by not matching my preconceived views about him.

Quite why I'm expected to keep justifying my own statements by KnC is a mystery - does he do the same to others here? If he wishes I'm sure he can find a reference to the TV programme - it was broadcast live from the Ryan Centre in the mid 1990's. Other guests were a lecturer from Queens University Belfast, IIRC, who was giving advice on the chemistry and possible breakdown characteristics of different chemical agents when left in the environment for long periods. I was in the audience for the live broadcast, and rather annoyingly they kept pointing the camera at me, presumably to try and make some link to me - many in the town knew full well who I was and what my job was.

Pontius Navigator
30th Jul 2018, 09:05
Apologies if I'm wrong but I think you misunderstand cloning. They spot an identical vehicle to the one they are using e,g. Silver Ford Focus. Then they get plates for the innocent car and put them on theirs. Then the car they are using doesn't trigger the ANPR on police cars. A friend got a fixed penalty speeding ticket from Southend, a hundred miles from where she lives due to someone using this.
EM, not at all. If you take a common vehicle then it is easier - silver Focus 13 to the dozen. A cloned motorbike I suspect less so.

KelvinD, the other way round. Police will visit the legitimate owner then look at the pictures of the cloned vehicle driver. The problem there, as describe above, is if it is a bike and the rider has a full helmet. A van more difficult to hide even with a cap on.

G-CPTN
30th Jul 2018, 10:45
Some years ago, my son had both of his vehicle licence number plates stolen.
He never heard any more about it (this was before ANPR cameras were 'invented').

flash8
30th Jul 2018, 12:49
Apologies if I'm wrong but I think you misunderstand cloning. They spot an identical vehicle to the one they are using e,g. Silver Ford Focus. Then they get plates for the innocent car and put them on theirs. Then the car they are using doesn't trigger the ANPR on police cars. A friend got a fixed penalty speeding ticket from Southend, a hundred miles from where she lives due to someone using this.
Likely all data is scooped up and cross-checked. If a car of whatever type is scanned in London, and then an hour later in Manchester... well.... obviously at least one is not as it seems. This probably happens in real-time and also cross-checked with where the car was previously scanned over months/years - likely a neural net ascertains anomalies in route and all this is information is combined with pulled in data from a multiple of sources. Scans also can possibly ascertain in certain circumstances (again though processing) driver features in some cases... also possibly condition of car.. list is infinite.. I'm sure this is the minimum.

When the scan is sent for image processing from the camera (or likely multiple cameras), don't think it is deleted after use, it isn't of course. It can be used for building up a picture over years, and likely is, combined with driver details it will be linked to everything from your innocent Facebook posts to anything else you may do.

For those are interested, look at some GCHQ job adverts in Software Engineering and work back from skills and technologies required/desired )) Stuff like image processing/Neural networks/Big Data is at the top of the list. As well as reading the Snowden documents so far (ageing but put you on the correct track).

Could list off the top of my head the top ten skills they desire. And doesn't take a genius to extrapolate how they are going to use these technologies.

Pontius Navigator
30th Jul 2018, 14:55
With respect to Flash 's previous post Persons of Interest​​​​​ in Netflix is an entertaining example of CCTV and data collation.

flash8
30th Jul 2018, 15:24
With respect to Flash 's previous post Persons of Interest​​​​​ in Netflix is an entertaining example of CCTV and data collation.
I must watch that PN!

There are also multiple signatures that can be derived from a vehicle such as anti-theft, GSM/UMTS from a camped device (not necessarily in use), Bluetooth hardware ID (received via localized antennas in slow moving traffic areas).

Where does surveillance start after leaving the airport? Likely your IMEI was scooped up by an airport stingray.... But these folk already knew that!I

Believe me the links that can be made between disparate data entities is beyond science-fiction. Cyprus story is bollocks in my opinion but does sound cloak n daggery for the masses and likely to remain unquestioned (national security and all that).





Krystal n chips
30th Jul 2018, 15:47
I took the comment to mean VP had been an audience guest.
It's quite common for the audience to mix with the guests after chat show recording. I did it once with Wogan.
Your mind obviously offered up another scenario...

Seeing as your previous snide comments (#2004 et al...) have been ignored, I think you can take it that most of the audience a) isn't interested, or b) has blocked you...

I appreciate you are a disciple of the many offerings on here......however.....when you say the comment referred to being a guest, quite how you deduced this from a categorical statement " I also appeared on a TV chat show, where he was one of the guests, and had time to talk to him off-camera" is a bit of a mystery, but, as the expression goes "by chance " or "in a bizarre coincidence " a mere 12 mins later ( take your pick, both appear on many intro's ) , up pops a post with that very same response !.

But, this is now the second time we have an answer to valid questions,......there's a few that remain of course,...... and we are still non the wiser as to the Sir Humphrey emulation

I am sure the pink fairy population in your garden enjoy the same moral support though.

Anyway, more exciting instalments of the rich diversity of life's experiences will doubtless unfold ......as soon as a relevant topic and thread appears.

Nige321
30th Jul 2018, 16:02
I appreciate you are a disciple of the many offerings on here......however.....when you say the comment referred to being a guest, quite how you deduced this from a categorical statement " I also appeared on a TV chat show, where he was one of the guests, and had time to talk to him off-camera" is a bit of a mystery, but, as the expression goes "by chance " or "in a bizarre coincidence " a mere 12 mins later ( take your pick, both appear on many intro's ) , up pops a post with that very same response !.

But, this is now the second time we have an answer to valid questions,......there's a few that remain of course,...... and we are still non the wiser as to the Sir Humphrey emulation

I am sure the pink fairy population in your garden enjoy the same moral support though.

Anyway, more exciting instalments of the rich diversity of life's experiences will doubtless unfold ......as soon as a relevant topic and thread appears.

I deduced it because I thought it unlikely that VP would be appearing on a chat show as a guest, more likey a member of the audience.
Perhaps proven by the line above now I re-read it - if your target had been a guest it would have read 'where WE were guests'...
As it turns out I was right, you were wrong...
Why don't you try adding something usefull to this thread, rather than stalking one of the participants.
It really is bizzare the mods haven't canned you by now...

Pontius Navigator
30th Jul 2018, 16:23
Gardianista, one of the chosen?

flash8
30th Jul 2018, 20:17
Well, we are all still in the hold until the esteemed powers that be release further information on the suspects.

Genuinely puzzles me that they have positively identified four suspects including the "weapon carrier" and a woman (who of course could be one and the same), such specificity to me shouldn't be left unchallenged, yet the compliant media just print what they are told, showing not the least inquisitiveness. Of course there could be reasons for this, however, at some stage they have to let this information into the public domain, not sure how it could hinder the investigation however I can see ways that it could actually enhance it (by folk coming forward).

Furthermore, identifying the suspects goes some way towards incriminating or eliminating Russia.

My thoughts for what they are worth is that the suspects do not point towards Russia or the Russian state (this latter information has been leaked) and they now find themselves in the unenviable position of a rather catastrophic foreign policy disaster.

Not an apologist here by any means, after all revealing the suspects will tell us much either way.

racedo
30th Jul 2018, 20:45
Apologies if I'm wrong but I think you misunderstand cloning. They spot an identical vehicle to the one they are using e,g. Silver Ford Focus. Then they get plates for the innocent car and put them on theirs. Then the car they are using doesn't trigger the ANPR on police cars. A friend got a fixed penalty speeding ticket from Southend, a hundred miles from where she lives due to someone using this.

Correct..................... happens all the time in London Congestion zone.

If being clever you find a Salisbury or nearby village with similar vehicle so it is not out of the ordinary in appearing on ANPR / CCTV in that area ........................ move out of range of said towns and switch the numbers again.

racedo
30th Jul 2018, 20:50
Well, we are all still in the hold until the esteemed powers that be release further information on the suspects.

Genuinely puzzles me that they have positively identified four suspects including the "weapon carrier" and a woman (who of course could be one and the same), such specificity to me shouldn't be left unchallenged, yet the compliant media just print what they are told, showing not the least inquisitiveness. Of course there could be reasons for this, however, at some stage they have to let this information into the public domain, not sure how it could hinder the investigation however I can see ways that it could actually enhance it (by folk coming forward).

Furthermore, identifying the suspects goes some way towards incriminating or eliminating Russia.

My thoughts for what they are worth is that the suspects do not point towards Russia or the Russian state (this latter information has been leaked) and they now find themselves in the unenviable position of a rather catastrophic foreign policy disaster.

Not an apologist here by any means, after all revealing the suspects will tell us much either way.

Going commercial gets everything photographed and why do that when there are lots of other means on exiting the country and nobody checking.
After all when was last time someone was arrested in Calais coming out of a truck from Dover.

flash8
30th Jul 2018, 21:18
Going commercial gets everything photographed and why do that when there are lots of other means on exiting the country and nobody checking.
After all when was last time someone was arrested in Calais coming out of a truck from Dover.
Could be wrong but I believe they were identified at an airport, on arrival and/or departure, as well as possibly elsewhere.
Given the British love of CCTV (weren't there more CCTV cameras in a small northern town than the entire city of Detroit?) likely quite a few places.

Actually here Police identified Novichok assassins on airport CCTV 'after British spies intercepted coded message to Moscow that pair who poisoned Skripals had successfully fled to Russia'

Granted was the Daily Mail.

Best part was this though:

Message to Russia saying 'package has been delivered' intercepted after attack
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

racedo
30th Jul 2018, 21:23
Could be wrong but I believe they were identified at an airport, on arrival and/or departure, as well as possibly elsewhere.
Given the British love of CCTV (weren't there more CCTV cameras in a small northern town than the entire city of Detroit?) likely quite a few places.



Easily possible to get in an out of UK without leaving a trace, only requirement is a couple of drivers.

Out Of Trim
31st Jul 2018, 00:17
Krystal n chips finally made it to my ignore list! Well deserved from my observations..

Lascaille
31st Jul 2018, 02:02
Going commercial gets everything photographed and why do that when there are lots of other means on exiting the country and nobody checking.

After all when was last time someone was arrested in Calais coming out of a truck from Dover.

Because getting 4 faces (connected to fake identities) caught on CCTV doesn't matter.

A criminal operation might try to sneak into the country if they could only access 'unofficial' fake identity documents (without matching database entries, printed by a third party).

If 'official' fake identity documents (officially printed and with matching database entries) are available then a commercial flight is essentially risk free.

Lascaille
31st Jul 2018, 02:15
Best part was this though:

"Message to Russia saying 'package has been delivered' intercepted after attack

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

That was actually a quote from the CNN article and is fairly amusing. I'd guess that CNN are being set up with a fake story that will later be used against them, but they deserve it if they're dumb enough to print that type of nonsense.

Lascaille
31st Jul 2018, 05:43
If as has been suggested, the would-be assassins used a dedicated vehicle (such as a van carrying mini-moto motorcycles) - with or without cloned licence plates it would need to be disposed-of when they left the country - leaving behind potentially incriminating evidence, whereas the KISS approach would be a simple rental vehicle . . .

I think most rental vehicles these days have GPS trackers which upload a daily route trace via a cell connection. That doesn't matter so much on the day but provides perfect timestamps for the investigators to look through later CCTV archives. If 'getting away with it' is the only requirement then two rented vehicles (for a quick vehicle swap after the job) would work.

Pontius Navigator
31st Jul 2018, 06:23
Krystal n chips finally made it to my ignore list! Well deserved from my observations..
Works for me too. Someone usually quoted her* so we can follow if we must. Except of course as more and more ignore her . . .

*knickers and twist

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 06:47
Krystal n chips finally made it to my ignore list! Well deserved from my observations..

Works for me too. Someone usually quoted her* so we can follow if we must. Except of course as more and more ignore her . . .

*knickers and twist

First and only person that's made it to my ignore list, and then reluctantly, after trying to have some form of debate on another thread a year or so ago.

I've never understood the need to spend so time and effort, trying to make me out as someone who is dishonest, even when proven to be mistaken a few times. I have better things to do than bother about what anyone posts on any forum, least of all someone who appears as if they may be on some form of personal quest, hence his addition to my ignore list.

He is one member I'd like to meet for a drink, though, as I rather think that we have more opinions on which we would agree than those where we would disagree (although I will admit right now that I'm not a regular Guardian reader, nor am I a regular reader of the Telegraph, either, for that matter). I reckon that the conversation might be interesting and non-hostile. all the more so because I suspect we have some former friends or acquaintances in common.

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 07:22
Back on the topic of this thread, I reckon that much of what we've been fed via various media outlets is misinformation or fake news. I don't beileve for one moment the take about the communications intercept, no one would be quite so stupid, plus real-rime interception of encrypted comms just doesn't happen - it takes time. If there had been an intercept I doubt that the fact would have been made public.

On the topic of CCTV, yes, locally there is a lot around Salisbury. but 90% of it is aimed at reducing or observing the major traffic congestion that occurs on the A30, A348,and the A36, especially around the section of the A36 from the A30/A360 junction with the A36 at St Pauls around to the A36 exit from the city down Southampton Road. The cameras are pretty old, most have been around for at least 10 years, maybe longer, so they may not be "state of the art". The city centre CCTV is newer, and there's a lot of it around, but most is privately owned, outside shops, pubs, restaurants etc. There is virtually no CCTV that I know of heading South West of the city once clear of the complex main road junctions immediately South of the city. The A3084 West has no coverage, for example, and from there it's dead easy to drive on B roads South or South West where I'm also pretty certain there are no cameras, not even speed cameras, for miles.

The main areas with heavy CCTV and ANPR coverage on the roads are all the roads coming in from the A303, so the A30 (North), A338, A345, and A360. There is also extensive CCTV coverage along much of the A36/A30 from Wilton, and on the A354 coming in from the South West.

Traffic congestion is a major problem in and around Salisbury much of the time. There is no effective by pass and the heavy traffic has been a bone of contention with all who live nearby for as long as I can remember. There are lots of "rat runs" used by locals to try and avoid most of the congestion, but gradually they are being closed off (rightly so, IMHO) following complaints by residents.

Another factor here is that the airspace is a bit congested. Apart from the large area blocked out by the Salisbury Plain DA, there is also the Porton Down DA, and the combined BDN/MW MATZ, plus the ATZ around Old Sarum. There's a great deal of light aircraft ad helo traffic low level in the area to the West of the City, extending out as far as Compton Abbas and beyond, which is regularly used by both PPL students from Old Sarum and Compton Abbas as well as rotary wing students from MW. Adding to that aerial mix there are at least half a dozen farm strips in that area to the West, some fairly regularly used.

Somehow the attacker(s) had to get in to the dense residential area to the North of the A36, where Sergei Skripal lived, right at the end of a very quiet residential close, place the agent on his door handle early on a Sunday morning, and then get away, out of the city, disposing of the materiel they had used, perhaps together with some protective clothing, like gloves. The bit that bothers me is that the chances are someone may well have noticed a strange car or motorcycle in the area immediately around their house, especially early on a Sunday morning, or perhaps during the night before. I can't help but think that a pedestrian would have attracted very little attention at all in that area, by comparison.

Krystal n chips
31st Jul 2018, 08:03
First and only person that's made it to my ignore list, and then reluctantly, after trying to have some form of debate on another thread a year or so ago.

I've never understood the need to spend so time and effort, trying to make me out as someone who is dishonest, even when proven to be mistaken a few times. I have better things to do than bother about what anyone posts on any forum, least of all someone who appears as if they may be on some form of personal quest, hence his addition to my ignore list.

He is one member I'd like to meet for a drink, though, as I rather think that we have more opinions on which we would agree than those where we would disagree (although I will admit right now that I'm not a regular Guardian reader, nor am I a regular reader of the Telegraph, either, for that matter). I reckon that the conversation might be interesting and non-hostile. all the more so because I suspect we have some former friends or acquaintances in common.

I'm sure your chums and loyal supporters will be mortified to learn you would only like to meet me for a drink. although you wouldn't enjoy the encounter.

There is, as you put it no quest and neither have I ever said you were dishonest,

However, as in the real world, as I've said before, when I've encountered those who are so prolifically self-aggrandizing ( "I dialled 999 " " I volunteered to skipper" " I portered their equipment ") being just three examples along with very detailed accounts, then it's always wise to take a deeper interest because at some point there will be contradictions as has been the case here. That, and they tend to take exception to being questioned......outraged, dismissive of the questions and questioner, refusing to answer are all well established defensive techniques when confronted with such. They also tend to be dismissive of others whose expertise in any sector, occupation or leisure activity doesn't conform with their own purported expertise and knowledge.

True, we do know people from the past, and this fact has long been established .....and the GSA is a very small world at times.


The latest deductive theory is interesting therefore as there appears to be a certain amount of backtracking given some of us, including myself, have suggested the use of "disinformation " before and been duly ridiculed and castigated for doing so. And quite what the superfluous reference ( and relevance) of the airspace and traffic within the airspace has to do with the case only you know because this is the first time it's been mentioned.......possibly because it has no relevance of course.

Sallyann1234
31st Jul 2018, 08:54
And quite what the superfluous reference ( and relevance) of the airspace and traffic within the airspace has to do with the case only you know because this is the first time it's been mentioned.......possibly because it has no relevance of course.
This from the person who has just posted a link to Harper's Bazaar in the UK Politics thread. Not exactly 'relevant' was it?
You are just an embarrassment here.

G-CPTN
31st Jul 2018, 08:59
As far as video evidence of the alleged would-be assassins is concerned, there are vinyl facemasks available that would 'fool' most CCTV (though maybe not face-to-face interviews with immigration staff).

Lascaille
31st Jul 2018, 09:01
Somehow the attacker(s) had to get in to the dense residential area to the North of the A36, where Sergei Skripal lived, right at the end of a very quiet residential close, place the agent on his door handle early on a Sunday morning, and then get away, out of the city, disposing of the materiel they had used, perhaps together with some protective clothing, like gloves. The bit that bothers me is that the chances are someone may well have noticed a strange car or motorcycle in the area immediately around their house, especially early on a Sunday morning, or perhaps during the night before. I can't help but think that a pedestrian would have attracted very little attention at all in that area, by comparison.

I don't know how much you expect people to notice but it's clearly a lot more than me. What is a 'strange' car anyway? I might notice a car in a particular driveway having changed but a car on the street is just a car. I walk past about ten models of car within twenty houses, if a car on the street is any one of those models I'm going to assume it comes from one of those houses, in fact I'm probably not even going to notice it unless it's rare or vintage etc etc.

I suggested a motorbike assuming a mid-day attack. If you're assuming evening or before dawn then a mountain bike would be my suggestion.

Nige321
31st Jul 2018, 09:03
KnC

You don’t seem to realise that your posts say more about you than any of the posters you crusade on here.
You come across as a sad, bitter and lonely person, trawling threads for snippets or quotes, and dreaming up vacuous comments to suit.

This is JetBlast, not a court of law.
The regulars are intelligent enough to read between lines or ignore comments or posters as required.
you hold no moral or intelligence superiority over anyone here

The more you do it, the more people will simply put you on their ignore lists, it’s a spiral that’s only heading downwards.
Try getting out in the sun a bit, or try a different forum.
i hear PistonHeads needs a bit of attention...

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 09:21
I don't know how much you expect people to notice but it's clearly a lot more than me. What is a 'strange' car anyway? I might notice a car in a particular driveway having changed but a car on the street is just a car. I walk past about ten models of car within twenty houses, if a car on the street is any one of those models I'm going to assume it comes from one of those houses, in fact I'm probably not even going to notice it unless it's rare or vintage etc etc.

I suggested a motorbike assuming a mid-day attack. If you're assuming evening or before dawn then a mountain bike would be my suggestion.

A while after the attack I drove down past the end of Christie Miller Road, just out of morbid curiosity, more than anything else. There seemed to be very few cars parked on the street, take a look on Google Streetview and it will show much the same. It's a bit like the road we live on at the moment, very few people park on it, and when they do, people tend to notice, as every house on the road has off-street parking. A delivery van wouldn't attract attention, perhaps, neither would most pedestrians, or cyclists. However, Sergei Skripal's house is right at the end of a cul-de-sac, facing down the road. From what we know of the timings, the agent was applied to the front door handle, either before they left the house at around 09:00 to visit the cemetery off London Road, or between the time they returned from the cemetery and left the house before lunchtime to drive to the Central Car Park, and park on the upper deck of the multistorey section.

Putting the agent on the door handle mid-morning on a Sunday, in a quiet residential area, seems bloody risky to me, hence my thought that it may well have been placed there much earlier. There's a street light right outside his house, so his front door would not have been in darkness during the night, but the chances are that the street lights turn off pretty much as soon as it starts to get light, so there could be a period of dim light pretty early in the morning, before most people were up and about, perhaps, when the agent could have been placed on the handle.

Pontius Navigator
31st Jul 2018, 09:46
Lascalie, people do notice. In streets where mostly residents park a strange car is noticed.

Krystal n chips
31st Jul 2018, 10:00
This from the person who has just posted a link to Harper's Bazaar in the UK Politics thread. Not exactly 'relevant' was it?
You are just an embarrassment here.

Actually, the link was a sardonic comment about fashion trends and brown shirts referred to in the post I quoted. Please see the last item in the link in this respect.

Lascaille
31st Jul 2018, 10:35
A delivery van wouldn't attract attention, perhaps, neither would most pedestrians, or cyclists. However, Sergei Skripal's house is right at the end of a cul-de-sac, facing down the road.

Putting the agent on the door handle mid-morning on a Sunday, in a quiet residential area, seems bloody risky to me, hence my thought that it may well have been placed their much earlier. There's a street light right outside his house, so his front door would not have been in darkness during the night, but the chances are that the street lights turn off pretty much as soon as it starts to get light, so there could be a period of dim light pretty early in the morning, before most people were up and about, perhaps, when the agent could have been placed on the handle.

You're thinking like some 14 year old burglar. There's nobody to see you at 4am but if you are seen the police will be called and they will be available and they will be there very quickly indeed and you will be the only person on the street at the time.

Their house being on a cul-de-sac improves things as people can't see around corners. Drop a guy around the corner and have him walk up to every front door at 8am with some pizza flyers. The Skripal's door gets a special offer. He goes back around the corner and nobody with view of their front door sees him being picked up.

Come on, think outside the box a bit :)

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 10:45
You may well be right - we have no evidence (that's been made public) to support or refute that hypothesis, just as we have no evidence (that's been made public) to support or refute any other hypothesis.

The leaflet drop idea sounds feasible, but it was a Sunday morning, and so seems less likely - around here no one delivers anything on a Sunday at all.

As for a police presence, all I can say is that it's very unlikely to be quick here, unless the report was one where there was an imminent risk to life. The local police station in Salisbury closed a few years ago and operations are directed out of Devizes, around a 40 minute drive away, where the nearest suspect handling facility, custody suite etc is located. There is a local police presence sharing the local Council offices, but very few assets locally available, especially on a Sunday morning when coverage is probably light due to the need to have more feet on the ground on Friday and Saturday night around the clubs in the city.

longer ron
31st Jul 2018, 10:50
Drop a guy around the corner and have him walk up to every front door at 8am with some pizza flyers. The Skripal's door gets a special offer. He goes back around the corner and nobody with view of their front door sees him being picked up.

Come on, think outside the (Pizza) box a bit :)

Dominos Theory ? :)

A_Van
31st Jul 2018, 10:52
Obviously, there are many ways how to touch a front door handle being not noticed. But this is rather a job for a single person, with perhaps the second one waiting in a car around the corner. With this regards the information about 4 suspects is getting more and more interesting. What were all they doing in the neighbourhood? How it was detected that all 4 were linked through a "common business"? I assume they were not marshing along the street like a squad. Perhaps it's just a disinformation (about 4 including a woman) purposed to make the plotters think the investigation took a wrong trail.

More data are needed....

Shandy52
31st Jul 2018, 11:46
One thing that's been puzzling me rather, is why the substance was applied when the Skripals were known to be in the house? If it had been applied while they were out, then firstly they would probably have got a heftier dose on opening the door, and secondly the symptoms would have started while they were at home. In that case, their bodies might not have been found for weeks, by which time it would be assumed that the substance would have dispersed and the cause of death not recognised.
Is it possible that there was an attempt to apply the substance on the Saturday while they were out, which for some reason didn't succeed? I've always thought it was unwise of the attackers to allow the effects to take hold in a public place.

Not trying to muddy the waters, there are plenty here doing their best in that direction. It's just that this has puzzled me from the start.

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 12:01
My personal view is that this was ill-planned, poorly executed and just doesn't seem like a professional job at all. If the attacker(s) had been from some government "assassination squad", especially one that was supposedly as good as that within the former KGB, would they really have screwed up so many things?

A professional "assassination squad" would most probably have been in, done the job, made sure the target was dead and out of the country leaving no trace behind that they had ever been there. This seems to be every bit as amateurish as the assassination of Litvinenko, and the evidence there suggests that it wasn't an attack by the Russian government, especially not as the most likely person to have carried out the attack is now sitting in the Duma in opposition, rather than support of, Vladimir Putin.

I can't think of people from any other country, other than Russia, that would both have a motive to kill Sergei Skripal, and access to the specific batch of agent used. Nor, for that matter, can I think of another country in the West that would opt to try and assassinate someone with such a bizarre and risky weapon.

Given the lack of information available it's inevitable that the media (and people here, including me) are going to be scratching around trying to come up with plausible-sounding theories, but if I had to guess I'd say that we will never find out the truth. If it turns out to be some pissed off renegade Russian criminals, or former colleagues of Sergei Skripal, then my guess is that information may be quietly passed to the Russian government as a way of trying to undo the harm done to diplomatic relations by the likes of mad Boris. I doubt we'll ever here about what may be going on via diplomatic back channels though, at least until such a time that any records are eventually made public in 30 years time, or however long it takes.

KelvinD
31st Jul 2018, 13:01
An intriguing point re the Skripals: If the agent was applied to the door knob, why would both people be affected? In my house, one person opens the door and any others arriving at the same time just troop in behind the door opener.

skydiver69
31st Jul 2018, 13:32
An intriguing point re the Skripals: If the agent was applied to the door knob, why would both people be affected? In my house, one person opens the door and any others arriving at the same time just troop in behind the door opener.

A later show of affection afterwards between father and daughter, opening a car door like a chivalrous father, passing cutlery or condiments in a restaurant?

racedo
31st Jul 2018, 17:08
Because getting 4 faces (connected to fake identities) caught on CCTV doesn't matter.

A criminal operation might try to sneak into the country if they could only access 'unofficial' fake identity documents (without matching database entries, printed by a third party).

If 'official' fake identity documents (officially printed and with matching database entries) are available then a commercial flight is essentially risk free.

Facial Recognition keeps a photo which reeadily used to find when and where someone entered anywhere and under what ID................... even if false, plus the cards used to book flights etc.

racedo
31st Jul 2018, 17:11
I think most rental vehicles these days have GPS trackers which upload a daily route trace via a cell connection. That doesn't matter so much on the day but provides perfect timestamps for the investigators to look through later CCTV archives. If 'getting away with it' is the only requirement then two rented vehicles (for a quick vehicle swap after the job) would work.

Nope they don't.

High end prestige cars yup but not in bogs standard vehicles which will be in fleet 6 months, again drivers detail including photo will be held and credit card used.

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 17:13
An intriguing point re the Skripals: If the agent was applied to the door knob, why would both people be affected? In my house, one person opens the door and any others arriving at the same time just troop in behind the door opener.

Perhaps he was wearing gloves? Could explain the transfer to lots of other surfaces around Salisbury, including his daughter and the high concentration found on his car steering wheel and driver's side door handles. It may also explain the very long delay between his (possibly gloved) hands being in contact with the agent and the onset of symptoms.

flash8
31st Jul 2018, 17:19
I reckon that much of what we've been fed via various media outlets is misinformation or fake news. I don't beileve for one moment the take about the communications intercept, no one would be quite so stupid, plus real-rime interception of encrypted comms just doesn't happen - it takes time. If there had been an intercept I doubt that the fact would have been made public.

The interception of the traffic channel would have been in R/T, likely if this is a true statement by the government then the crypto would have been analysed because the endpoints looked promising combined with other signal intelligence. This assumes the attackers were very sloppy, something I doubt.

The problem arises when rewinding the crypto to "crack" so to speak. Nearly every modern crypto algorithm in use today in public-key cryptography is infeasible to break in finite computation time, seems pretty obvious really, except to Joe public... believing the "boffins" at GCHQ have super human capabilities.

Even if the attackers communications channel was compromised the way the Government portrayed it is utter bullshit and worthy of second rate spy fiction.

My personal view is that this was ill-planned, poorly executed and just doesn't seem like a professional job at all.
Or an extremely professional job if you get my understanding.

racedo
31st Jul 2018, 17:26
An intriguing point re the Skripals: If the agent was applied to the door knob, why would both people be affected? In my house, one person opens the door and any others arriving at the same time just troop in behind the door opener.

Point I made in March, even was it closing the door then one would pull it closed not both.

racedo
31st Jul 2018, 17:27
A later show of affection afterwards between father and daughter, opening a car door like a chivalrous father, passing cutlery or condiments in a restaurant?

Doubt it as little contamination on car door

Lascaille
1st Aug 2018, 00:39
The interception of the traffic channel would have been in R/T

Why would there be a channel? Why would there be any type of radio? Why would they use Russian? Why would they encrypt it? Why would they use a provocative codephrase?

You wanna send a message that the job's been done? Go to Amazon on your phone and add an item to your cart. There. Message sent. Pick that out of the noise.

VP959
1st Aug 2018, 06:48
Why would there be a channel? Why would there be any type of radio? Why would they use Russian? Why would they encrypt it? Why would they use a provocative codephrase?

You wanna send a message that the job's been done? Go to Amazon on your phone and add an item to your cart. There. Message sent. Pick that out of the noise.

Exactly. Another favoured way is the old draft folder trick. You open an email account with someone like Google (Gmail), write a message, but never send it, you just save it as a draft. The other party has access to your Gmail account, logs in and reads the saved draft, then deletes it. No email was ever sent, so there's no traceability, as long as throwaway SIM devices are used at both ends to access the account. There isn't even any way to know where the phone/tablet was that accessed the account, as that information only gets transmitted if the email is actually sent. You can have a different email account for every message, making this effectively a one-off code book system, and you can delete the account if you wish afterwards, although finding it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

KelvinD
1st Aug 2018, 07:48
There isn't even any way to know where the phone/tablet was that accessed the account, as that information only gets transmitted if the email is actually sent.
Not sure about that VP. Although I was never involved with the mobile phone side of things (always referred to at work as "The dark side!"), I had donkeys' years of involvement with trunked 2-way radio systems and they work along very similar lines. Cell sites will track a radio as the central system needs to know which of the adjacent cell sites may be involved along the way if the radio is moving. As the cell sites use sectored antennas they will have a rough idea of where, geographically, the radio seems to be in relation to the cell site. Adjacent sites will also receive signals from the radio with varying strength and direction etc. As the signal strength attenuates in the original site and increases in an adjacent site, the central controller will know which site will be next to provide service to the moving radio, allowing for a smooth handover from site to site. That data can be used to provide a rough idea of the area of where the radio is, using triangulation. During the early years of cell phones, one of my colleagues was involved in the roll out of the very first cellular systems in UK (in the world in fact, other than the 2 experimental systems installed in the US). They were contacted by the police who were hoping they could help trace a stolen car which happened to have one of the experimental mobile units installed. Eventually, they found the relevant data in the system and reported rough locations to the police. A couple of hours later, they had another call from the police to say thanks. Using the data my colleague had provided, they had collared the car on the M1. That was around 30 years ago and we know how the technology has advanced since then!
So, a phone's location is known to the system from the moment it is switched on.

VP959
1st Aug 2018, 08:51
Not sure about that VP. Although I was never involved with the mobile phone side of things (always referred to at work as "The dark side!"), I had donkeys' years of involvement with trunked 2-way radio systems and they work along very similar lines. Cell sites will track a radio as the central system needs to know which of the adjacent cell sites may be involved along the way if the radio is moving. As the cell sites use sectored antennas they will have a rough idea of where, geographically, the radio seems to be in relation to the cell site. Adjacent sites will also receive signals from the radio with varying strength and direction etc. As the signal strength attenuates in the original site and increases in an adjacent site, the central controller will know which site will be next to provide service to the moving radio, allowing for a smooth handover from site to site. That data can be used to provide a rough idea of the area of where the radio is, using triangulation. During the early years of cell phones, one of my colleagues was involved in the roll out of the very first cellular systems in UK (in the world in fact, other than the 2 experimental systems installed in the US). They were contacted by the police who were hoping they could help trace a stolen car which happened to have one of the experimental mobile units installed. Eventually, they found the relevant data in the system and reported rough locations to the police. A couple of hours later, they had another call from the police to say thanks. Using the data my colleague had provided, they had collared the car on the M1. That was around 30 years ago and we know how the technology has advanced since then!
So, a phone's location is known to the system from the moment it is switched on.

But if it's a throwaway, PAYG, with a new one used for each access, then that makes it near-impossible to track.

The big bonus of the draft folder scheme is that no email messages are aver actually sent, so there are no emails to trace. The user account can be deleted after use, or several different user accounts can be set up, used to save a single draft message that never gets sent, and then binned after being used for that one draft message access.

G-CPTN
1st Aug 2018, 09:02
But if it's a throwaway, PAYG, with a new one used for each access, then that makes it near-impossible to track.

The big bonus of the draft folder scheme is that no email messages are aver actually sent, so there are no emails to trace. The user account can be deleted after use, or several different user accounts can be set up, used to save a single draft message that never gets sent, and then binned after being used for that one draft message access.
Too much information?

Sallyann1234
1st Aug 2018, 09:08
Why was it even necessary to send a 'job done' message?
The results were very soon all over the press.
​​

VP959
1st Aug 2018, 09:18
Why was it even necessary to send a 'job done' message?
The results were very soon all over the press.
​​

I don't think it was. Much of the stuff that the media is reporting sounds like hype to me, intended to make a political point by the media outlet, or even government source, that it originated from.

Sallyann1234
1st Aug 2018, 09:25
The hype will of course be ignored by those most closely involved.
I meant simply that confirmation of the attack by the perpetrator wasn't necessary.

B Fraser
1st Aug 2018, 10:31
Too much information?

Not really. All of the above is easy to find if you are minded to look. The electronic / data footprint of even the most casual user is much larger than you would ever imagine. There was a tv series recently which revealed how simple it is to find and track someone. The details shown were barely the tip of the iceberg.

Effluent Man
1st Aug 2018, 11:39
And I doubt that anybody seeking such information would be searching JB for it.

Pontius Navigator
1st Aug 2018, 12:52
Too much information?

Not really. That use of a draft message system has been known for years, and it and burner phones have been used in novels for many techno thrillers. It is a racing certainty that the boffins have a workaround.

Consider, an email is drafted on a computer and saved to the ISP server. Alternatively that email is sent to another address. It still passes through that same server. Do I need to draw the dots?

Burner phones may not be trackable being essentially static. However in a recent Lee Childs novel burner phones were used, their messages isolated, and phone located. The weak link was the message traffic which had the same characteristics on different phone pairs. . . .

If a novelist can hypotheses this you can be certain the comms agencies already have it covered.

flash8
1st Aug 2018, 13:46
Why would there be a channel? Why would there be any type of radio? Why would they use Russian? Why would they encrypt it? Why would they use a provocative codephrase?

Channel is a technical term used in computer security, you completely misinterpret the meaning, however I appreciate you aren't an expert in the area and could have therefore been clearer. As for the rest I never stated any of that perhaps you saw it elsewhere.

A communication channel or simply channel refers either to a physical transmission medium such as a wire, or to a logical connection over a multiplexed medium such as a radio channel in telecommunications and computer networking. ... Communicating data from one location to another requires some form of pathway or medium.
Should educate you.

Edited: And I have worked in the area a number of years now so should know exactly what what I'm talking about even discounting my ageing comp sci degree.

flash8
1st Aug 2018, 13:56
But if it's a throwaway, PAYG, with a new one used for each access, then that makes it near-impossible to track.
Numerous ways to track source via IMEI and IMSI back to the requisition. More so if the phone had been purchased used no matter in which manner. Discounting even numerous other factors that could provide correlation. Extremely hard to obtain a truly anonymous burner phone and SIM.

VP959
1st Aug 2018, 14:32
I'm not sure I can understand why there should be a need for any communication once inside the UK. If this was an individual/team from outside the UK (which seems most likely, ignoring all the finger-pointing and over-blown rhetoric), then why would they need to use any form of electronic communication? They presumably had a plan, may well have done a virtual recce using Google Earth or whatever, could easily have done a walk-by recce posing as a leaflet drop person, or even a dog walker, and the attack itself seems simple, if more than a little bit bizarre, to implement.

Ignoring all the logistic stuff, the stuff about messages etc, I think the primary questions to be answered are:

1. Why target Sergei Skripal (i.e. what was the motive?).

2. Why choose such a potentially unreliable, imprecise and non-target-specific method to attempt to murder him?

3. Why seem to leave evidence behind, not too far from the attack site, that proved to be lethal to an innocent person (assuming that the agent found by Charlie Rowley was from the exact same batch as that which was used against the Skripals)?

flash8
1st Aug 2018, 14:38
1. Why target Sergei Skripal (i.e. what was the motive?).

If a wider motive is not discounted, i.e. destabilisation of the country at a time of arguably great weakness, then perhaps Skripal was peripheral along with other factors such as location (surely not a coincidence), coupled with the later poisonings (which could have been deliberate, not that we'd be told) they add up to an opponent that considered Skripal useful to further their means.

Perhaps I am wrong but I still think Skripal was not the target, the UK was the target, and Skripal was a useful tool in conjunction with other factors.

3. Why seem to leave evidence behind, not too far from the attack site, that proved to be lethal to an innocent person (assuming that the agent found by Charlie Rowley was from the exact same batch as that which was used against the Skripals)?
Not sure it was "left behind", definitely we haven't been told the whole story on that one.

Sallyann1234
1st Aug 2018, 15:08
I don't believe the 'left behind'.

If (it's a big IF but let's accept it for the moment) that Charlie was right about the perfume bottle being fully sealed and wrapped in cellophane, it's unlikely to be the same container used to apply the Novichok to the doorknob. The operator would not take the risk of wrapping it up like new, they would just drop it into an outer container for personal safety before disposal.

I think it's far, far more likely that a separate container prepared in the laboratory was left somewhere, perhaps days or weeks later, just to complicate the investigations and promote confusion.

G-CPTN
1st Aug 2018, 15:49
I don't believe the 'left behind'.
I think it's far, far more likely that a separate container prepared in the laboratory was left somewhere, perhaps days or weeks later, just to complicate the investigations and promote confusion.
But if the objective was to spread confusion, what chance was there of somebody 'finding' it - and then applying the contents?

flash8
1st Aug 2018, 15:54
But if the objective was to spread confusion, what chance was there of somebody 'finding' it - and then applying the contents?
Depends where it was "found".

If the placement was deliberate so that it 100% could be "found" that information would never be released to the public.

Sallyann1234
1st Aug 2018, 16:38
But if the objective was to spread confusion, what chance was there of somebody 'finding' it - and then applying the contents?
Depends where it was left. Patently it was planted where someone was likely to find it, because someone did find it!

Effluent Man
1st Aug 2018, 18:24
This whole affair is now so mired in misinformation and false trails that it isn't possible to draw any conclusion as to the perpetrators and/or their reasons. The only thing that we can be sure of is that the conclusions jumped to were premature and unreasonable.

racedo
1st Aug 2018, 18:38
This whole affair is now so mired in misinformation and false trails that it isn't possible to draw any conclusion as to the perpetrators and/or their reasons. The only thing that we can be sure of is that the conclusions jumped to were premature and unreasonable.

Which is what those of us taking the contrary view that it was Russian ordered have being saying from the start.

Effluent Man
1st Aug 2018, 19:11
My point precisely.

flash8
1st Aug 2018, 20:14
This whole affair is now so mired in misinformation and false trails that it isn't possible to draw any conclusion as to the perpetrators and/or their reasons. The only thing that we can be sure of is that the conclusions jumped to were premature and unreasonable.
Sums it up quite well.

TEEEJ
1st Aug 2018, 20:28
There's a street light right outside his house, so his front door would not have been in darkness during the night, but the chances are that the street lights turn off pretty much as soon as it starts to get light, so there could be a period of dim light pretty early in the morning, before most people were up and about, perhaps, when the agent could have been placed on the handle.

Was the light switch off scheme still operating?

About 20,000 street lights across Wiltshire are to be switched off at night to save money.

Lights in Salisbury, Melksham, Westbury, Wilton and Laverstock will be turned off between midnight and 05:30 BST

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-33341225

TEEEJ
1st Aug 2018, 21:19
Point I made in March, even was it closing the door then one would pull it closed not both.

The door opened outwards. Sergei pushes it closed and locks it. Yulia while in the car preparing to drive off forgets something and re-enters the house.

http://media.ws.irib.ir/image/4bpnad2f13332413603_800C450.jpg

racedo
1st Aug 2018, 21:44
The door opened outwards. Sergei pushes it closed and locks it. Yulia while in the car preparing to drive off forgets something and re-enters the house.

http://media.ws.irib.ir/image/4bpnad2f13332413603_800C450.jpg

Er No.......................... we have already been over this, it opens inwards.

racedo
1st Aug 2018, 21:48
The door opened outwards. Sergei pushes it closed and locks it. Yulia while in the car preparing to drive off forgets something and re-enters the house.

http://media.ws.irib.ir/image/4bpnad2f13332413603_800C450.jpg

Amazing for a door handle that is supposedly contaminated with deadly chemicals that Police left it in place and didn't remove it...............

Bearing in mind we are told chemical last for years then just find it curious and strange that it was left in place.

Bet there is footage of people entering and leaving the house after the incident and is SOP for Police on entering a house that you use gloves to open the door...............

DaveReidUK
1st Aug 2018, 21:55
Er No.......................... we have already been over this, it opens inwards.

Really ? Opening it must have been quite a challenge.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/512x338/door_ff5247659ef31b7e3a0503eabf95aff37076d134.jpg

TEEEJ
2nd Aug 2018, 15:04
Er No.......................... we have already been over this, it opens inwards.

I thought so too a few months ago, but the hinges are clearly on the outside and the door opens outwards.

A poster made a good observation in regards to this door.

If you look at the two photographs at Post #828, it looks as though a porch has been added. Maybe the door which now opens outwards is not the door into the house only into the porch and one has to open an inner door into the house.

https://www.pprune.org/10101613-post849.html

There is a typo in the post and the poster is referring to #826. You can see from the pics at the following link that this appears to be an outward opening porch door. If there is an inner door the the question remains what door handle was the agent applied to? I expect that is was just the outer porch door but who knows?

https://www.pprune.org/10101228-post826.html

VP959
2nd Aug 2018, 15:41
I can confirm from looking at it that there is a porch added on with what looks to be the original front door behind it. Whether the porch door was kept locked or not I don't know - some people around here, including some of my neighbours, leave their outer door unlocked, at least during the day, so that parcel delivery people can drop stuff out view (and the weather).

Krystal n chips
2nd Aug 2018, 15:49
The horseshoe may now be surplus to requirement.......

And that porch looks like it's been there for a while because I can't think of many designs which extend out from the wall, yet allow direct access to the interior once the door is opened

TEEEJ
2nd Aug 2018, 15:57
Amazing for a door handle that is supposedly contaminated with deadly chemicals that Police left it in place and didn't remove it...............

Bearing in mind we are told chemical last for years then just find it curious and strange that it was left in place.

Bet there is footage of people entering and leaving the house after the incident and is SOP for Police on entering a house that you use gloves to open the door...............

That image was taken on 6th March.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/license/927909728

VP959
2nd Aug 2018, 18:08
That image was taken on 6th March.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/license/927909728

And the confirmation that there was nerve agent on the door handle wasn't made until later that week, IIRC. They covered the front of the house with a tent not long after that photo was taken.

TEEEJ
2nd Aug 2018, 18:36
Police investigating the nerve agent poisonings in Wiltshire have removed two bins from Salisbury city centre after one of the survivors, Charlie Rowley, revealed he may have taken a bottle that contained novichok from them.
The bins were removed on Thursday from behind the Cloisters pub and taken to a government laboratory at Porton Down to be analysed.
Friends of Rowley, whose partner Dawn Sturgess died after being exposed to novichok, have said he habitually went “bin diving” behind the shops and other buildings on Catherine Street.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/02/novichok-inquiry-police-remove-two-bins-from-salisbury-city-centre

Street view link to bin area behind Cloisters pub.

https://goo.gl/maps/DWYrY7ZrdCF2

3D map link

https://goo.gl/maps/DGZk82swxS92

G-CPTN
2nd Aug 2018, 18:50
Police investigating the nerve agent poisonings in Wiltshire have removed two bins from Salisbury city centre after one of the survivors, Charlie Rowley, revealed he may have taken a bottle that contained novichok from them.
The bins were removed on Thursday from behind the Cloisters pub and taken to a government laboratory at Porton Down to be analysed.
Friends of Rowley, whose partner Dawn Sturgess died after being exposed to novichok, have said he habitually went “bin diving” behind the shops and other buildings on Catherine Street.

That only makes sense if the bottle was retrieved soon after the Skripal event - otherwise the bins would have been emptied and the contents disposed of,

TEEEJ
2nd Aug 2018, 18:51
There does appear to be a camera but it appears that it only covers a rear door/delivery area.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1547x749/cloisters_5639202c72881dfbb877a9d369ea03b90f5fde37.jpg

TEEEJ
2nd Aug 2018, 19:56
There is a camera located at the junction of where The Cloisters is located. Perhaps they have been able to capture Charlie Rowley in recent footage heading for or away from the area? Perhaps carrying a recognisable perfume box?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1418x737/salisburycatherinest_279a0850f27aa5a53b6725a1816f7a90bd46ff4 6.jpg

https://goo.gl/maps/wmH7Z2Bpj4A2

Pontius Navigator
3rd Aug 2018, 07:30
Here we go again. Insider information - now one door handle or two. A pub, but when was it used? Was Only the bin used or did they have a couple of Wodkas for Varrington as stiffened to celebrate a job done?

flash8
3rd Aug 2018, 14:17
Not only does the official story stink to high heaven, one cannot even be sure what the official story is, pinning it down is like trying to grip a slippery eel. That the media is asking absolute no questions, just accepting and printing statements at face value and not doing the remotest of due diligence just makes it even worse.

I believe nothing, absolutely nothing they have said, and nor would anyone with a modicum of intelligence. They are treating us like fools.

The only interesting tidbit is they have identified three (or four, again it varies) "suspects" including the "weapon carrier" and one being a woman, and a "Moscow connection" (which could mean nothing at all), soon they will have to name these suspects, and when that day comes, it'll be very interesting. Or, perhaps, they won't be named, the story will change again... you really never know.

Effluent Man
3rd Aug 2018, 16:51
The most telling point is how quiet it has gone. The government seems to have adopted a lie low and hope it goes away strategy. You can be sure that if there was any mileage to be had from recent developments they would be milking it for all it is worth. Recent developments don't fit the narrative.

BehindBlueEyes
3rd Aug 2018, 16:55
Not only does the official story stink to high heaven, one cannot even be sure what the official story is, pinning it down is like trying to grip a slippery eel. That the media is asking absolute no questions, just accepting and printing statements at face value and not doing the remotest of due diligence just makes it even worse.

I believe nothing, absolutely nothing they have said, and nor would anyone with a modicum of intelligence. They are treating us like fools.

The only interesting tidbit is they have identified three (or four, again it varies) "suspects" including the "weapon carrier" and one being a woman, and a "Moscow connection" (which could mean nothing at all), soon they will have to name these suspects, and when that day comes, it'll be very interesting. Or, perhaps, they won't be named, the story will change again... you really never know.

You've hit the nail on the head; couldn’t agree more.

I have close connections in Salisbury and find it also very interesting that the following fact has never been reported.

A police car involved in the second poisoning incident in June was taken away and destroyed - possibly covered in the press? What wasn’t ever mentioned was that that police officer’s private car was also removed AND that of his civilian wife and have not been returned (if ever) Why? He is still around the area, although not apparently on active duty.

Yet more more questions than answers.

flash8
3rd Aug 2018, 20:03
The most telling point is how quiet it has gone. The government seems to have adopted a lie low and hope it goes away strategy. You can be sure that if there was any mileage to be had from recent developments they would be milking it for all it is worth. Recent developments don't fit the narrative.
The huge problem the UK faces is that they have already tried and judged the Russian state as guilty, and convinced (some reluctant) allies to expel diplomats. If it were seen to be false, it would set UK credibility back decades, yes decades, it would look so bad this government would not recover and for many years we would be intelligence pariahs, and I think I'm understating things if anything, including Russia's response.

Their biggest problem is Boris and Williamson rather foolishly starting shooting startling accusations without effectively any real evidence (worrying even other Ministers), and now the UK cannot back away from those assertions without long-term credibility destruction. As such I think they'll hope it all brushes under the carpet by sticking their heads in the sand. But of course, like Brexit, it won't.

A police car involved in the second poisoning incident in June was taken away and destroyed - possibly covered in the press? What wasn’t ever mentioned was that that police officer’s private car was also removed AND that of his civilian wife and have not been returned (if ever) Why? He is still around the area, although not apparently on active duty.
Wasn't aware of this, interesting. They really have come unstuck in trying to manipulate this narrative.

Fitter2
3rd Aug 2018, 20:35
Hi Flash

You are welcome to keep pushing the Kremlin line. I don't know what good the troll factories actually think they are achieving.

flash8
3rd Aug 2018, 20:46
You are welcome to keep pushing the Kremlin line. I don't know what good the troll factories actually think they are achieving.
You completely fail to understand, I am not saying Russia is not responsible, but on current evidence it is unlikely. Furthermore if they are responsible well, they are.... not much really to say, unlike many, I honestly don't care either way... the truth is what I am after.

I am awaiting naming of the three or four suspects we have been told have been conclusively identified, then we can all make our own minds up eh? Some seem rather reluctant to welcome that event.

To paraphrase Rod Tidwell's (Cuba Gooding Jr.) fine words in Jerry Maguire.... "Show me the suspects".

Nige321
3rd Aug 2018, 22:45
The huge problem the UK faces is that they have already tried and judged the Russian state as guilty, and convinced (some reluctant) allies to expel diplomats. If it were seen to be false, it would set UK credibility back decades, yes decades, it would look so bad this government would not recover and for many years we would be intelligence pariahs, and I think I'm understating things if anything, including Russia's response.

Their biggest problem is Boris and Williamson rather foolishly starting shooting startling accusations without effectively any real evidence (worrying even other Ministers), and now the UK cannot back away from those assertions without long-term credibility destruction. As such I think they'll hope it all brushes under the carpet by sticking their heads in the sand. But of course, like Brexit, it won't.


Wasn't aware of this, interesting. They really have come unstuck in trying to manipulate this narrative.
No evidence????
And you think 20 countries have expelled over 100 diplomats on the say-so of Boris and co.
Considering the UKs position in Europe and our standing further afield, wIthout real evidence, most of them would have told us to pi$$ off...

flash8
3rd Aug 2018, 23:20
No evidence????
And you think 20 countries have expelled over 100 diplomats on the say-so of Boris and co.
Yes, if you saw the Powerpoint four slides of "evidence" our allies were shown (leaked online) you'd realize just how farcical it was, the Powerpoint itself looked like it was put together by a bunch of sixth formers and was nothing more than supposition.

LEAKED: The 4 ridiculous slides UK used to “convince” US that Russia was “guilty” of Novichok poisoning (http://theduran.com/the-4-ridiculous-slides-uk-used-to-convince-us-that-russia-was-guilty-of-nerve-agent-poisoning/)

However on the off chance you believe the government. perhaps a statement from the horses mouth via the media (Independent and Telegraph) might make you rethink your assertion:

It is believed, however, that no evidence had been found so far to prove that the attack was ordered directly by senior figures in the Kremlin, or Vladimir Putin, the Russian president.

Looks like a climb down... after the latest horrendous attack not one word from the UK Government blaming Russia... in fact the contrary "Jumping to no conclusions" was Sajid Javids exact words... I wonder why?

It is worth reiterating.... "Show me the suspects"... now they have been positively identified...

Krystal n chips
4th Aug 2018, 05:34
No evidence????
And you think 20 countries have expelled over 100 diplomats on the say-so of Boris and co.
Considering the UKs position in Europe and our standing further afield, wIthout real evidence, most of them would have told us to pi$$ off...

I hate to shatter your delusions here, but, the UK's standing in the world isn't quite as influential as you appear to think. Not forgetting relations with the EU are "slightly less than harmonious " at present.

After the initial attack, and the subsequent response from the UK Gov't, it should have come as no surprise there would be a global reaction and condemnation. Cue mass expulsions all round.

However, what we don't know is precisely what information was provided to other nations to induce this response which may well have a bearing on matters for the future as others have said because if it does transpire the Gov't have been, to put it politely, "economical with the truth " and given the Gov't in question is currently in dire need of gaining public and international support due to the political implosion and incestuous political warfare taking place, then desperate times can require desperate measures.

Meanwhile, a ( relevant, unlike it's predecessor on here ) aviation aspect. But, in keeping with the rest of this saga, this action does seem not only a little late in the day but also superfluous given we are informed only direct contact with the agent will lead to contamination and thereafter the effects will become apparent and yet, as far as we know, no paramedics have contracted any of the symptoms .

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/01/air-ambulance-grounded-novichok-contamination-checks-wiltshire



Thankfully though, JB has provided clear and compelling evidence to negate all media speculation and solved the case almost immediately.

Pontius Navigator
4th Aug 2018, 07:13
Yes, if you saw the Powerpoint four slides of "evidence" our allies were shown (leaked online) you'd realize just how farcical it was, the Powerpoint itself looked like it was put together by a bunch of sixth formers and was nothing more than supposition.

LEAKED: The 4 ridiculous slides UK used to “convince” US that Russia was “guilty” of Novichok poisoning (http://theduran.com/the-4-ridiculous-slides-uk-used-to-convince-us-that-russia-was-guilty-of-nerve-agent-poisoning/)


Looking at the source of your link, are we sure it wasn't put together by a bunch of sixth formers?

You really need confirmation from one of the recipients.

As for 6th formers, reflect on 6th formers of your generation and the kids at university today (no A-levels required). ☺

DaveReidUK
4th Aug 2018, 08:42
Looking at the source of your link, are we sure it wasn't put together by a bunch of sixth formers?

Yes, it's interesting that our professional cynics have left their critical faculties at the door when it comes to examining the provenance of this "document".

Yes, if you saw the Powerpoint four slides of "evidence" our allies were shown (leaked online) you'd realize just how farcical it was, the Powerpoint itself looked like it was put together by a bunch of sixth formers and was nothing more than supposition.

LEAKED: The 4 ridiculous slides UK used to “convince” US that Russia was “guilty” of Novichok poisoning (http://theduran.com/the-4-ridiculous-slides-uk-used-to-convince-us-that-russia-was-guilty-of-nerve-agent-poisoning/)

Note that it's five pages (not including the title page, which is, oddly, datelined "Moscow"), whereas The Duran only reproduces pages 1-4. Could that be anything to do with the fact that page 5 is a dead giveaway that it's a spoof ?

If anyone wants to look at the whole thing, you can download it from https://www.kommersant.ru/docs/2018/UK_Briefing.pdf

Enterprising lot, these 6th-formers. :O

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 09:02
Has anyone who has ever worked in government, and seen a briefing at any level, seen one that doesn't carry any form of security marking at all?

None of those slides have any security marking; not even "UNCLASSIFIED", which, given their nature, seems to be either an incredibly negligent oversight, or a clear indication that they are a spoof.

The official templates for briefings at all levels always, without fail, included some form of security marking at the top and bottom of every page or slide. In my day you couldn't actually create a document or slide without filling in the security caveat - it was there by default and the range of options you could select depended on the machine you were using to produce the document. The majority of official machines only allowed a security marking as high as SECRET (with caveats like "UK/US EYES ONLY") or as low as UNCLASSIFIED. You couldn't leave the marking field blank. If you needed to produce a document or slide with a marking higher than SECRET, then you could not use your desktop machine or laptop, and had to use one of the thin client machines that had no storage, and they would only work with your pass fitted into the front to prove to the system that you had the clearance needed. Removing your pass just shut the thin client and screen down instantly, with no data stored at your workstation at all.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 09:24
Clearly false reporting designed to further muddy the waters.

It quotes

But a British High Court investigation into the incident was not so categorical, concluding (https://www.rt.com/uk/422129-boris-skripal-novichok-court/) Thursday
​​​​​​
What High Court investigation?

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 09:38
Clearly false reporting designed to further muddy the waters.

It quotes

But a British High Court investigation into the incident was not so categorical, concluding (https://www.rt.com/uk/422129-boris-skripal-novichok-court/) Thursday
​​​​​​
What High Court investigation?

That article is dated 23rd/24th March 2018, so by "Thursday" it most probably means Thursday 22nd March.

On Thursday 22nd March the Court of Protection made the following judgement: https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/sshd-v-skripal-and-another-20180322.pdf

In essence this allowed the OPCW to take blood samples from Sergei and Yulia Skripal, even though they were at that time unconscious and critically ill, in order for the independent OPCW laboratories to conduct an analysis of the agent that was used.

We know (because the OPCW have openly reported it) that the findings of the independent testing of samples by several OPCW accredited laboratories was identical to the findings by the Porton Down OPCW accredited laboratory.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 10:00
Thanks VP. That dismisses that nonsense.

Then there is

"The slideshow (https://www.kommersant.ru/docs/2018/UK_Briefing.pdf), which London has since confirmed is authentic, starts with..."

Who in London has confirmed this rubbish is authentic? The Russian embassy?

Krystal n chips
4th Aug 2018, 10:14
If there's one book that defines quite a lot of the content on this thread, as well as the events themselves, it's this....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyguard_of_Lies

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 10:51
Has anyone who has ever worked in government, and seen a briefing at any level, seen one that doesn't carry any form of security marking at all?

None of those slides have any security marking; not even "UNCLASSIFIED", which, given their nature, seems to be either an incredibly negligent oversight, or a clear indication that they are a spoof.

The official templates for briefings at all levels always, without fail, included some form of security marking at the top and bottom of every page or slide. In my day you couldn't actually create a document or slide without filling in the security caveat - it was there by default and the range of options you could select depended on the machine you were using to produce the document. The majority of official machines only allowed a security marking as high as SECRET (with caveats like "UK/US EYES ONLY") or as low as UNCLASSIFIED. You couldn't leave the marking field blank. If you needed to produce a document or slide with a marking higher than SECRET, then you could not use your desktop machine or laptop, and had to use one of the thin client machines that had no storage, and they would only work with your pass fitted into the front to prove to the system that you had the clearance needed. Removing your pass just shut the thin client and screen down instantly, with no data stored at your workstation at all.

Slides were produced for a European audience to convince them on Russia's guilt.................. long on rhetoric, short on substance and UK used the "trust me" with pressure from its diplomats.
Many countries tooks London at its word and supported them, its what you do with friends.
But very quickly it has emerged that this was it, there were going to be nothing else to such an extent that Berlin has continued to question when they would see the evidence.
To date none has been forthcoming.

Now we see the rowing back.................... bit too late for that as in Dipomatic circles it just doesn't work like that.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 10:56
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/british-ambassador-to-russia-briefing-on-the-salisbury-attack-22-march-2017

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 11:00
I don't doubt for a moment that the FCO, and very specifically the idiot Johnson, jumped on this as a way to blame Russia for something that I honestly doubt had anything at all to do with the Russian government. Rowing back from that position by the UK government won't be at all easy, as rather than wait until they had significant evidence as to how the attack had been carried out, the nature of the weapon and delivery system and some idea as to who the attacker, or attackers, might be, it seemed that Boris et al just jumped in with both feet and made some pretty wild accusations.

Having said that, the Russian government have made some equally wild accusations, too, and every crackpot conspiracy theorist around the globe seems to have popped up with their own pet theories, usually just as a way to support their own particular political agenda.

As I've mentioned before, I don't think we can really trust any media reporting on this at all, but have to rely on the very small amount of factual information that has been put into the public domain and independently verified as being correct.

Effluent Man
4th Aug 2018, 11:10
Exactly the point that I was making back at #2099. It seems pretty crazy to me to start making allegations before the facts are known. But that is precisely what Johnson and Williamson did. Totally unprofessional.

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 11:11
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/british-ambassador-to-russia-briefing-on-the-salisbury-attack-22-march-2017

From that statement:

"On the basis of the information we had, we concluded that there were only 2 plausible explanations for how this material had been used in the United Kingdom. Either it was a direct act by the Russian state against our country or the Russian government had lost control of this catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others."

My belief is that the last phrase of that quote is what may well have happened.

This is supported by this report on the lack of safety and security at Shikhany, and other facilities, that was published in 1995: https://www.stimson.org/sites/default/files/file-attachments/Report17_1.pdf

Pontius Navigator
4th Aug 2018, 11:14
As I've mentioned before, I don't think we can really trust any media reporting on this at all, but have to rely on the very small amount of factual information that has been put into the public domain and independently verified as being correct.
True, but the problem is sorting the truth from the dross. Anyone using a single source of information may be sceptical but cannot discern fact for speculation . Even two sources only create doubt not confirmation.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 11:14
From that statement:
My belief is that the last phrase of that quote is what may well have happened.

This is supported by this report on the lack of safety and security at Shikhany, and other facilities, that was published in 1995: https://www.stimson.org/sites/default/files/file-attachments/Report17_1.pdf

UK Ambassador directly accusing Russia of Litvenyenko murder.............

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 11:29
UK Ambassador directly accusing Russia of Litvenyenko murder.............

I don't think there is any real doubt that Litvinenko was murdered by Andrei Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun - they left a damning trail of Polonium 210 everywhere they went, and Lugovoy even managed to poison himself with the stuff, although not fatally.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 11:30
I don't think there is any real doubt that Litvinenko was murdered by Andrei Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun - they left a damning trail of Polonium 210 everywhere they went, and Lugovoy even managed to poison himself with the stuff, although not fatally.

However Officiai UK Govt statements are he was murdered by Russian Govt.

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 11:52
However Officiai UK Govt statements are he was murdered by Russian Govt.

Who knows whether Lugovoy and Kovtun were working for the FSB or not? They were definitely both former KGB agents in the Soviet era, and it's anyone's guess as to whether they acted independently from the Russian state or not. Litvinenko was definitely a thorn in the side of the Russian government, but not so much for the Russian opposition. It would seem that, if you look purely at motive, the Russian government had the greatest motive to see him assassinated. What I find a bit strange is that Lugovoy is in opposition to Putin, so why does he have Putin's protection, in the form of the refusal to allow either Lugovoy or Kovtun to be extradited?

I know that Russia has a general policy of not allowing extradition, but this would have given Putin a valid way to get rid of one of his supposed opponents in the Duma, yet he chose not to take it. I wonder why?

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 11:58
I know that Russia has a general policy of not allowing extradition, but this would have given Putin a valid way to get rid of one of his supposed opponents in the Duma, yet he chose not to take it. I wonder why?
Because Lugovoy would feel betrayed and get his revenge on Putin by spilling secrets?

fitliker
4th Aug 2018, 12:19
The only convictions we will see in this matter are some people's prejudices against a former allies travellers .
The big coincidence between this botched amateur attempt at chemical assassination and previous attempts at chemical assassinations is just how difficult and messy they can be.
Other coincidence, double agents pissing off their new employers? Employers with Ironically a group of double O's that was started by amateurs to circumvent the usual red tape in state functions.
The art of the kill has to be appreciated.
A lot of thought was put into the type of death intended for these traitors.
Who done it is irrelevant, the message to other traitors is what is important.
Understanding that, will help understand the Why .
What message does it send to kill a man who claimed to be a refugee , in fear for his life , Who was not scared to be involved in the sale of stolen weapons ? His death was art . He could have just been mugged in Londonstan. But that death would have very little deterrent value to other would be traitors or persons who Lie to their new employers .
The previous precision and performance art of the kills require a high skill set that usually are indications of persons capable of exercising extreme prejudice and discipline in furtherance of a state function.
The question of which state is muddled making criminal convictions unlikely.

A_Van
4th Aug 2018, 13:48
With all my respect to you, VP959, let me disagree on some points.


....
Litvinenko was definitely a thorn in the side of the Russian government, but not so much for the Russian opposition. It would seem that, if you look purely at motive, the Russian government had the greatest motive to see him assassinated.


Definitely not. Why was he a "thorn"? An ordinary retired KGB/FSB serviceman, who, during his service, was dealing not with establishment, but with criminal elements in Russia. Could be compared with an FBI guy in NYC who new a lot about Gambinos, Genoveses, etc. At a certain point of time he retired and joined the mob of Boris Berezovsky who needed such people. But Litvinenko himself did not know any state secrets, did not betray any agents abroad, did not defect being a serviceman. His boss, Berezovsky, was indeed a "thorn", including Putin personally. But Litvinenko, even compared with Skripal, was a one from a "peanut gallery" for the Russian state. Dozens of real "thorns" lived and keep living in London.
It looks much more likely that the Boris' mob got rid of him, because at a certain point of time he got out of his control, even started greenmailing him (after Boris cut his funding dramatically).

What I find a bit strange is that Lugovoy is in opposition to Putin, so why does he have Putin's protection, in the form of the refusal to allow either Lugovoy or Kovtun to be extradited?

Russia does not extradict its citizens according to its law, like do most of the countries.


I know that Russia has a general policy of not allowing extradition, but this would have given Putin a valid way to get rid of one of his supposed opponents in the Duma, yet he chose not to take it. I wonder why?

And why do you think he is in an opposition to Putin? He is a member of a strange "liberal-democratical party" mainly containing populists with no serious economic or social platform. He was probably invited to be put in the list of "Duma" (parliament) from that party, and he happily agreed.

As for traces of polonium, it is easy explicable: real poisoners simply marked Lugovoy and Kovtun with the substance showing a false trace to the investigators who had bitten the hook.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 13:51
Who knows whether Lugovoy and Kovtun were working for the FSB or not? They were definitely both former KGB agents in the Soviet era, and it's anyone's guess as to whether they acted independently from the Russian state or not.


There are many UK ex services personnel offering their services to the highest bidder and no doubt this will have included disappearing people.
Doesn't mean they in employ of UK Govt or is it if someone ex Russian Military kills someone then it is Russia's fault but if they were UK then it is not UK's fault ?


Litvinenko was definitely a thorn in the side of the Russian government, but not so much for the Russian opposition. It would seem that, if you look purely at motive, the Russian government had the greatest motive to see him assassinated. What I find a bit strange is that Lugovoy is in opposition to Putin, so why does he have Putin's protection, in the form of the refusal to allow either Lugovoy or Kovtun to be extradited?

I know that Russia has a general policy of not allowing extradition, but this would have given Putin a valid way to get rid of one of his supposed opponents in the Duma, yet he chose not to take it. I wonder why?

I posted element of Russian Consitution previously where states Russian Citizens can not be extradited.

Nothing to do with Government of the day and not subject to the whim of a judge or cabinet minister like UK.

UK has not provided proof in a court and refused option offered to try them in a Russian court.

TEEEJ
4th Aug 2018, 14:26
A police car involved in the second poisoning incident in June was taken away and destroyed - possibly covered in the press? What wasn’t ever mentioned was that that police officer’s private car was also removed AND that of his civilian wife and have not been returned (if ever) Why? He is still around the area, although not apparently on active duty.

Yet more more questions than answers.


Why on earth does that surprise you? Police Officer after driving police car drives both his own private vehicle and his wife's. (or was a passenger). Do you not think that said vehicles would be removed as a precaution in case of contamination?

TEEEJ
4th Aug 2018, 14:34
Update on the bins. The bins belonged to the Cancer Research charity shop next to The Cloisters pub.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/715x481/charityshop_d9f11f44facdd633b1b7042f1acc731a37bf0fac.jpg
They have now removed two bins, from behind the Cancer Research charity shop, as part of the ongoing investigation into the poisoning of Charlie and Dawn Sturgess,

https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2649383/latest-cordon-in-salisbury-city-centre-lifted/

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 15:35
I posted element of Russian Consitution previously where states Russian Citizens can not be extradited
Nothing to do with Government of the day and not subject to the whim of a judge or cabinet minister like UK.

​​UK has not provided proof in a court and refused option offered to try them in a Russian court.
​​​​​The crime was committed in the UK, against UK laws.
Would your Russian court permit the defenders to be tried under UK laws, and UK sentences applied?
And would it waive Putin's new edict that it was not a crime to murder an enemy of Russia?

​​​​​

BehindBlueEyes
4th Aug 2018, 16:04
Why on earth does that surprise you? Police Officer after driving police car drives both his own private vehicle and his wife's. (or was a passenger). Do you not think that said vehicles would be removed as a precaution in case of contamination?

Only that if the police car, his private car and his wife’s car are considered potentially contaminated; he will be the obvious transferee and therefore, be subject to observation as well. But, to date, he is still freely circulating amongst the populace. I don’t wish harm at all to him but if this stuff is considered that virulent, why the inconsistency in just removing the vehicles? Surely his home would also need to be quarantined, after all, that’s where most of us spend our time?

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 16:14
​​​​​The crime was committed in the UK, against UK laws.


And ?


Would your Russian court permit the defenders to be tried under UK laws, and UK sentences applied?

Would UK court allow a defendant charged in the UK for a crime committed abroad be tried under that laws of a different country and the sentence
applied as if that was a foreign country.
Oh wait No it wouldn't.


And would it waive Putin's new edict that it was not a crime to murder an enemy of Russia?
​​​​​

Can you show me where and when this edict was made please by President Putin

Oh and when you say Putin that means him NOT Russian Duma.

annakm
4th Aug 2018, 16:15
Update on the bins. The bins belonged to the Cancer Research charity shop next to The Cloisters pub.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/715x481/charityshop_d9f11f44facdd633b1b7042f1acc731a37bf0fac.jpg


https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2649383/latest-cordon-in-salisbury-city-centre-lifted/

Perhaps someone “donated” an unopened bottle of perfume to the charity shop? An efficient way of losing the contaminant into the system? Some charities don’t resell cosmetics etc for hygiene purposes so it got tossed in the refuse and subsequently scavenged by Charlie.

flash8
4th Aug 2018, 16:16
I'm not sure why some are so keen to find Russia guilty on this thread despite a complete lack of evidence.

Many years ago I spoke to a British detective inspector that had come to Moscow on a Policeman's stag-do, they were all in a particular bar I frequent, and being far from home and with beer on-board were quite happy to be raucous and join in the fun, very nice guys.

This senior'ish officer over a few beers told me that when they have a suspect in custody they do everything possible to eliminate him/her from the enquiry, not the other way around as many would suspect. All their questioning apparently has one objective in mind, to eliminate the suspect! I always remembered this as it in retrospect made perfect sense.

That is how we should be approaching this, why on earth would Russia do this? They have no benefit at all.

DaveReidUK
4th Aug 2018, 16:53
This senior'ish officer over a few beers told me that when they have a suspect in custody they do everything possible to eliminate him/her from the enquiry, not the other way around as many would suspect.

As opposed to doing everything possible to fit up a suspect ? Well that's good to know, though I think most of us could have worked that out aready.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 17:09
And ?
Would UK court allow a defendant charged in the UK for a crime committed abroad be tried under that laws of a different country and the sentence
applied as if that was a foreign country.
Oh wait No it wouldn't.
So the offer of a trial in Russia was meaningless.


Can you show me where and when this edict was made please by President Putin

Oh and when you say Putin that means him NOT Russian Duma.
In this context it's the same thing.
It was the law that Putin pushed through the Duma in March 2006 which gave the FSB the power to kill "terrorists" abroad.
FEDERAL LAW NO. 35-FZ OF 6 MARCH 2006

flash8
4th Aug 2018, 17:14
It was the law on that Putin pushed through the Duma in March 2006 which gave the FSB the power to kill "terrorists" abroad.
Well, at least it transparently is the law for all to see.
Whereas the UK seems to have form going back to the NI Shoot to kill policy and no doubt are just as rogue today.
The Hypocrisy of the British government knows no bounds believe me.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 17:18
So the offer of a trial in Russia was meaningless.


Nope

Do you know the Russian punishment for a crime v UK Punishment ?



In this context it's the same thing.
It was the law that Putin pushed through the Duma in March 2006 which gave the FSB the power to kill "terrorists" abroad.
FEDERAL LAW NO. 35-FZ OF 6 MARCH 2006

So power to kill "terrorists" abroad is power to kill anybody................ So how many have they killed.

Where is UK law on this as it seems it willingly kills terrorists abroad including UK citizens.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 17:31
Nope

Do you know the Russian punishment for a crime v UK Punishment ?

So power to kill "terrorists" abroad is power to kill anybody................ So how many have they killed.

Where is UK law on this as it seems it willingly kills terrorists abroad including UK citizens.
The point was, and still is, that the offer of a trial for Lugovoy in Russia was meaningless, and any verdict or sentence could be over-ridden by a simple declaration that he was a 'terrorist'.

You have not answered that point, and your continued irrelevant questions do not succeed in evading it.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 17:38
The point was, and still is, that the offer of a trial for Lugovoy in Russia was meaningless, and any verdict or sentence could be over-ridden by a simple declaration that he was a 'terrorist'.

You have not answered that point, and your continued irrelevant questions do not succeed in evading it.

Yet more BS from you.

UK Foreign Office is well aware of what was on offer but refused because it wouldn't be able to fiddle the evidence.

flash8
4th Aug 2018, 17:40
The problem is Lugovoy is seen as a hero in Russia, or at least viewed positively. I doubt he would ever be convicted. So you have a point.

Was he involved though? Whilst it might seem obvious that he was (and remember that is a narrative firmly painted by HMG) there is an argument that Berezovsky and Goldfarb played a hand in all of this.

Suspect Litvinenko was a rogue (Russian) play, and a clumsy one at that, but the actual truth is still somewhat murky.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 17:44
Yet more BS from you.

UK Foreign Office is well aware of what was on offer but refused because it wouldn't be able to fiddle the evidence.
In your opinion.

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 17:46
The problem is Lugovoy is seen as a hero in Russia, or at least viewed positively. I doubt he would ever be convicted. So you have a point.

Was he involved though? Whilst it might seem obvious that he was (and remember that is a narrative firmly painted by HMG) there is an argument that Berezovsky and Goldfarb played a hand in all of this.

Suspect Litvinenko was a rogue (Russian) play, and a clumsy one at that, but the actual truth is still somewhat murky.
If he was put on trial and had to defend himself, the truth may have come out.
We don't have that opportunity.

A_Van
4th Aug 2018, 18:12
.....
It was the law that Putin pushed through the Duma in March 2006 which gave the FSB the power to kill "terrorists" abroad.
FEDERAL LAW NO. 35-FZ OF 6 MARCH 2006

Would you please be so kind to point a specific clause/item of this law saying exactly what you wrote?

Just for curiosity, I opened this document and see that in Clause 10 it is said about MoD (army, AF, etc.) involvement in anti-terrorist operations like the one in Syria. And there are some legal steps to be taken.

No doubt US, UK and other countries have similar laws. Otherwise how bombing of Yugoslavia, Lybia, Iraq, etc. etc would be arranged?

Nige321
4th Aug 2018, 18:27
I hate to shatter your delusions here, but, the UK's standing in the world isn't quite as influential as you appear to think. Not forgetting relations with the EU are "slightly less than harmonious " at present.

After the initial attack, and the subsequent response from the UK Gov't, it should have come as no surprise there would be a global reaction and condemnation. Cue mass expulsions all round.

However, what we don't know is precisely what information was provided to other nations to induce this response which may well have a bearing on matters for the future as others have said because if it does transpire the Gov't have been, to put it politely, "economical with the truth " and given the Gov't in question is currently in dire need of gaining public and international support due to the political implosion and incestuous political warfare taking place, then desperate times can require desperate measures.

Meanwhile, a ( relevant, unlike it's predecessor on here ) aviation aspect. But, in keeping with the rest of this saga, this action does seem not only a little late in the day but also superfluous given we are informed only direct contact with the agent will lead to contamination and thereafter the effects will become apparent and yet, as far as we know, no paramedics have contracted any of the symptoms .

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/01/air-ambulance-grounded-novichok-contamination-checks-wiltshire



Thankfully though, JB has provided clear and compelling evidence to negate all media speculation and solved the case almost immediately.

Why don't you try reading what I actually said?
The UK has no influence anywhere, which is what I said.
And no, Boris and co will nopt have persuaded 20 odd countries to throw out 100 odd diplomats on either their say so, or any form of schoolboy Powerpoint.
Are people on here really stupid enough to believe this is what happened??

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 18:30
If he was put on trial and had to defend himself, the truth may have come out.
We don't have that opportunity.

The UK government felt that the evidence implicating Lugovoy and Kovtun was strong enough to warrant a Freezing Order: The Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2016 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/67/made)

We will never know whether or not the evidence would be sufficient to convict them of murder, as they will never be tried, but the weight of evidence that has been made public seems both strong and very, very difficult to have been rigged, particularly the evidence concerning the distribution of Polonium 210 in various locations. Having looked at the evidence that has been made public, I'd have to say that trying to fake that would be damned near impossible, IMHO.

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 18:45
I'm not sure why some are so keen to find Russia guilty on this thread despite a complete lack of evidence.

Many years ago I spoke to a British detective inspector that had come to Moscow on a Policeman's stag-do, they were all in a particular bar I frequent, and being far from home and with beer on-board were quite happy to be raucous and join in the fun, very nice guys.

This senior'ish officer over a few beers told me that when they have a suspect in custody they do everything possible to eliminate him/her from the enquiry, not the other way around as many would suspect. All their questioning apparently has one objective in mind, to eliminate the suspect! I always remembered this as it in retrospect made perfect sense.

That is how we should be approaching this, why on earth would Russia do this? They have no benefit at all.

Just had a friend who's a serving police officer over (to ask about arranging cutting our shared hedge), and raised the point about questioning aimed at eliminating any suspect. He confirmed it was standard procedure and even has an acronym, TIE, Trace, Interview, Eliminate. Apparently it's been found to be a lot more effective at getting at the real suspects, than the old old practice of looking around for the most likely suspect, then wasting days trying to find evidence relating that suspect to the crime.

TEEEJ
4th Aug 2018, 19:06
Only that if the police car, his private car and his wife’s car are considered potentially contaminated; he will be the obvious transferee and therefore, be subject to observation as well. But, to date, he is still freely circulating amongst the populace. I don’t wish harm at all to him but if this stuff is considered that virulent, why the inconsistency in just removing the vehicles? Surely his home would also need to be quarantined, after all, that’s where most of us spend our time?


Simply because the police officer showed no symptoms of nerve agent poisoning. The same with the paramedic who treated Dawn Sturgess. His car was also taken away as there was fear of possible contamination. The risk was deemed low but they took no chances. Items could also have been taken away from the houses of those in direct contact with the couple from Amesbury.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/986497/amesbury-poisoning-latest-news-swindon-salisbury-novichok-dawn-sturgess-charlie-rowley

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 19:58
Would you please be so kind to point a specific clause/item of this law saying exactly what you wrote?
Since I'm not fluent in ​Russian (unlike so many here) I am unable to provide a direct translation. However it seems to be generally accepted that the law includes the Russian word for "terrorists", and as we know they are to be found everywhere including unfortunately in both our countries.
I'm sure it would be possible for a suitably tasked intelligence agency to found sufficient evidence to label Litvinenko such a person.

Ancient Observer
4th Aug 2018, 20:02
He was just a very naughty boy.
So said the GRU.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 20:39
If he was put on trial and had to defend himself, the truth may have come out.
We don't have that opportunity.

God I love the Nievity.......

A trial is NOT about the truth, its about deciding whether someone is Guilty or Not Guilty.

Ancient Observer
4th Aug 2018, 20:41
God I love the Nievity.......

A trial is NOT about the truth, its about deciding whether someone is Guilty or Not Guilty.

No. A trial is abbout very expensive solicitors and barristers poncing about. Ripping off us all.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 20:43
Since I'm not fluent in ​Russian (unlike so many here) I am unable to provide a direct translation. However it seems to be generally accepted that the law includes the Russian word for "terrorists", and as we know they are to be found everywhere including unfortunately in both our countries.
I'm sure it would be possible for a suitably tasked intelligence agency to found sufficient evidence to label Litvinenko such a person.

So therefore your claim is that is is "Generally Accepted" has fallen flat on its ass because as by my question in the the quote below it doesn't exist.

Can you show me where and when this edict was made please by President Putin

Oh and when you say Putin that means him NOT Russian Duma.

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 20:44
No. A trial is abbout very expensive solicitors and barristers poncing about. Ripping off us all.

Oh that is the end result but not the purpose.

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 20:46
Simply because the police officer showed no symptoms of nerve agent poisoning. The same with the paramedic who treated Dawn Sturgess. His car was also taken away as there was fear of possible contamination. The risk was deemed low but they took no chances. Items could also have been taken away from the houses of those in direct contact with the couple from Amesbury.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/986497/amesbury-poisoning-latest-news-swindon-salisbury-novichok-dawn-sturgess-charlie-rowley




All of the evidence released in the public domain states that Sgt Nick Bailey suffered from A234 poisoning, and the official version is that he was contaminated when he visited the Skripal house. The hospital staff confirmed he'd been treated for the same nerve agent poisoning as the Skripals, so where does the story that the "police officer showed no signs of nerve agent poisoning" come from?

racedo
4th Aug 2018, 20:50
All of the evidence released in the public domain states that Sgt Nick Bailey suffered from A234 poisoning, and the official version is that he was contaminated when he visited the Skripal house. The hospital staff confirmed he'd been treated for the same nerve agent poisoning as the Skripals, so where does the story that the "police officer showed no signs of nerve agent poisoning" come from?

It is the whoo controls and releases the info that i always worry about.

VP959
4th Aug 2018, 20:54
It is the whoo controls and releases the info that i always worry about.

Including Salisbury District Hospital? I think that's stretching the conspiracy theory just a little be beyond any form of credible boundary, don't you? (and my wife is a nurse, so I know full well that NHS staff do not cooperate well with people like the police telling them what to say).

longer ron
4th Aug 2018, 21:10
It is the whoo controls and releases the info that i always worry about.

It is who controls and releases nerve agents in an indiscriminate manner that I always worry about !

Sallyann1234
4th Aug 2018, 21:25
So therefore your claim is that is is "Generally Accepted" has fallen flat on its ass because as by my question in the the quote below it doesn't exist.

My turn to ask the questions:
Do you deny that FEDERAL LAW NO. 35-FZ OF 6 MARCH 2006 refers to 'terrorists'? Or that the law was introduced to the Duma by Vladimir Putin?

Andy_S
4th Aug 2018, 21:42
A trial is NOT about the truth, its about deciding whether someone is Guilty or Not Guilty.

And if any Russian suspects had been tried in a Russian court for the attacks on the Skripals or even Litvinenko it's a safe bet that court would have decided they were not guilty. Which is, I imagine, why we didn't rush to take them up on the offer.....

flash8
4th Aug 2018, 23:41
And if any Russian suspects had been tried in a Russian court for the attacks on the Skripals or even Litvinenko it's a safe bet that court would have decided they were not guilty. Which is, I imagine, why we didn't rush to take them up on the offer.....I think no matter where any case was brought to court the judiciary would be under pressure from the government, whether UK or Russia. Can you imagine the inverse, British suspects poison ex-British traitor in Russia, and then Russia returns them to the UK for trial? I suspect the result would be exactly the same.

In both circumstances I'd imagine the last thing either government would want is a trial no matter the outcome, because all of the dirty-washing would come out, and much of it would unavoidably be held in-camera, which would fire up JB at least ;)

Krystal n chips
5th Aug 2018, 05:20
It was inevitable really......

A_Van
5th Aug 2018, 06:16
Since I'm not fluent in ​Russian (unlike so many here) I am unable to provide a direct translation.

I hate this boring legal stuff, but took some time to look it through. Some comments are below among your lines.

However it seems to be generally accepted that the law includes the Russian word for "terrorists",

True, but the context is about anti-terrorist operations, and nothing is said about elemination of specific individuals. I think such a law just copied, in many aspects, similar acts adopted in US and its allies after 9/11. They needed a legal basis to operations in Afghanistan and later in Iraq. No declaration of war, just an anti-terrorist operation.

Coming back to that Russian law of 2006. It draws clear lines between ops within the country and abroad. In the former situation, FSB should be involved (as it operates only within the country, not abroad) and also armed forces could be added if necessary. In the latter case, only army ops are mentioned, like the one that is now taking place in Syria.

So, referring to that law in connection with Litivinenko and Skripal is not correct. It shows how misinterpretation (probably made by guru-newsmakers like Daily Mail, Mirror, BBC, etc.) finally results in false statement.


I'm sure it would be possible for a suitably tasked intelligence agency to found sufficient evidence to label Litvinenko such a person.

I agree about "suitable tasked intel. agency" - they are purposed for covered operations and operate, so to say, not according to publicly available laws. What is happening in their campuses is usually disclosed in some 50+ uears. But this is everywhere. I hope you would not tell me that UK does not have spies abroad who perform not according to any law (blackmailing, bribes, etc,). So do other countries, this is the world we are living in.
But I have great doubts that Litvinenko and Skripal would be declared terrorists. First, they were not. Second, they were, sorry for such a cynical term, too small fries for the establishment to allocate (serious) resources to get rid of them. Again, there are many much more "hurting thorns" living in UK (also in Spain costs, Cote d'Azure, etc) without any attempts from the regime to physically attack them. Don't you find it strange?

Also, does not it look strange that there were almost no political noise after the death of Boris Berezovsky, who was such a "premier league thorn"?

Pontius Navigator
5th Aug 2018, 07:34
['m not sure why some are so keen to find Russia guilty on this thread despite a complete lack of evidence.​​​​​
Could it be that it looks like a duck, swims like a duck . . .?

Do we know of who else might chose this method of assassination with a weapon from this country, against a national of this country, whose countrymen have used similar methods in the past?

No doubt the boys in blue or grey are trying to prove the principal suspect innocent.

While it is conceivable that it is a sophisticated assassination by an organisation that is not Russian it is unlikely to be the usual suspects, ISIL, PIRA, Harmed etc. So who else? The US, the Germans, former WPC States, Israel? How about our closest ally? Now they do have form?

​​

VP959
5th Aug 2018, 07:52
I think the initial point is to look at which countries in the world would have a motive for any of these attacks.

Litvinenko was only a problem to some Russians - AFAIK he didn't cause any problems with people from any other state. Ergo, it seems unlikely that anyone but Russians would have any interest in him, let alone a motive to kill him

Exactly the same applies to Sergei Skripal. The only people he upset were Russians, so similarly it seems unlikely that anyone from any other country would have any interest in attacking him.

The second point is to ask the question "Which countries have a long history of using bizarre poisons as assassination weapons?"

Again, the answer is Russia, plus a few other small countries in places like Africa and South America. Russia, in particular, specialised in developing poisons and toxic agents for assassinating enemies of the state. There were three KGB facilities back in the days of the USSR, all located in Russia, that specialised in these forms of assassination methods, Lab 1, Lab 12 and Kamera. Many KGB operatives were trained in killing using these methods and they were extremely good at it, particularly the covert assassination squads - much of the time they left no evidence of the cause of death of the victim at all; all we have are mysterious deaths of people that were know to have been considered enemies of the state, but with no evidence to prove that they had even been killed. It is the lack of this operational expertise in both the Litvinenko killing and the Skripal attack that convinces me that neither was carried out by highly trained former KGB operatives, the attacks were both clumsy and poorly executed, and in the case of Sergei Skripal, extremely so. All that attack has done is harm four people and kill an innocent woman, whilst creating a major international incident that has benefited no one.

Sallyann1234
5th Aug 2018, 08:48
I hate this boring legal stuff, but took some time to look it through. Some comments are below among your lines.



True, but the context is about anti-terrorist operations, and nothing is said about elemination of specific individuals. I think such a law just copied, in many aspects, similar acts adopted in US and its allies after 9/11. They needed a legal basis to operations in Afghanistan and later in Iraq. No declaration of war, just an anti-terrorist operation.

Coming back to that Russian law of 2006. It draws clear lines between ops within the country and abroad. In the former situation, FSB should be involved (as it operates only within the country, not abroad) and also armed forces could be added if necessary. In the latter case, only army ops are mentioned, like the one that is now taking place in Syria.

So, referring to that law in connection with Litivinenko and Skripal is not correct. It shows how misinterpretation (probably made by guru-newsmakers like Daily Mail, Mirror, BBC, etc.) finally results in false statement.




I agree about "suitable tasked intel. agency" - they are purposed for covered operations and operate, so to say, not according to publicly available laws. What is happening in their campuses is usually disclosed in some 50+ uears. But this is everywhere. I hope you would not tell me that UK does not have spies abroad who perform not according to any law (blackmailing, bribes, etc,). So do other countries, this is the world we are living in.
But I have great doubts that Litvinenko and Skripal would be declared terrorists. First, they were not. Second, they were, sorry for such a cynical term, too small fries for the establishment to allocate (serious) resources to get rid of them. Again, there are many much more "hurting thorns" living in UK (also in Spain costs, Cote d'Azure, etc) without any attempts from the regime to physically attack them. Don't you find it strange?

Also, does not it look strange that there were almost no political noise after the death of Boris Berezovsky, who was such a "premier league thorn"?
Not convincing I'm afraid. You talk about 'context', but it would not be difficult for a state appointed lawyer in front of his own court to argue that a traitorous spy who caused the loss of many colleagues should be treated as a terrorist. And those who killed him were members of the army for that operation.

As for your diversion to talk about thorns and political refugees like Berezovsky, completely irrelevant. Skripal was a spy. We know that, because RT says so, and they are always honest, aren't they. A warning has been given to other spies not to follow his example.

For the attack on Skripal, Russia had the only clear motive, the opportunity, and the very particular means. Whether or not that was a direct order from the top, Russia was responsible.
​​​​

BehindBlueEyes
5th Aug 2018, 09:01
All of the evidence released in the public domain states that Sgt Nick Bailey suffered from A234 poisoning, and the official version is that he was contaminated when he visited the Skripal house. The hospital staff confirmed he'd been treated for the same nerve agent poisoning as the Skripals, so where does the story that the "police officer showed no signs of nerve agent poisoning" come from?

My original post was referring to another police officer involved in the second incident - not Sgt Nick Bailey.

VP959
5th Aug 2018, 09:23
My original post was referring to another police officer involved in the second incident - not Sgt Nick Bailey.





There's no public domain evidence of anyone other than Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess having suffered ill effects from A234 in the second incident that I'm aware of.

Given that there were sources of contamination that were discovered very late during the Skripal investigation - including his parked car in the multistorey car park that was overlooked for so long that it was towed away by Wiltshire Council's contracted tow company, Ashley Woods - that I strongly suspect lessons were learned and ANY item, vehicle or whatever that could even remotely be contaminated was taken away for examination following the second incident.

The way that Sergei Skripal's heavily contaminated car was overlooked for several days, long enough for the council to get it towed away for having an expired parking ticket, and ended up in a private vehicle recovery centre on the Churchfields Industrial Estate, must have been bloody embarrassing for the initial investigation team. It's purely down to the way that Ashley Woods recover cars, whereby they don't bother trying to gain entry to them, but just pick them up and shift them as they sit, that meant that their operative didn't end up getting contaminated as well. The same firm collected my last Prius when it was written off in an accident, so I've seen first hand that they don't bother trying to get into the car at all when picking them up.

Krystal n chips
5th Aug 2018, 09:35
Actually, it's a standard recovery technique to not even bother getting into a car that's being recovered, just attach a tow arm or drag it onto a low loader, so this is hardly unique to the company in question.

Plus, if a car has been written off in an accident, then it's hardly likely to be drivable now is it.

Also helps negate any subsequent allegations about the mysterious disappearance of the latest laptop etc.etc which was, strangely, left in the car at the time as it broke down.

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 11:38
Browsing the net I found a twitter message from a Government minister (Ben Wallace) denying they have found three-four suspects (one a woman also the weapon carrier), so we get these very specifics and then total silence.. and now they have refuted what was previously "leaked" this from 19th July.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/654x595/screenshot_2018_08_05_14_35_46_ff3eceda932b3686d32770fdcb260 a3d79ecf499.png

Whereas the BBC Says:
Salisbury poisoning: Police 'identify Novichok suspects' (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44883803)


This leads me to another possibility. They have indeed traced the suspects, but as they don't point to the conclusion the government wishes (and has dug a huge hole for) perhaps it is best the information is never revealed... they can then kind of back off previous statements by remaining quiet and hope it will all settle down and go away.

The narrative changes so often that I find it hard frankly to believe anything one way or another.

Pontius Navigator
5th Aug 2018, 11:46
What is true is the Government blamed . . .

What is not true is the Police said . . .
The Government said etc

What was said is the sources said . . .
What was said is it is believed that . . .

On Pprune is was argued that . . .
.
​​​​

racedo
5th Aug 2018, 11:53
It is who controls and releases nerve agents in an indiscriminate manner that I always worry about !

You mean like Saddam who was supplied equipment by whom again ?

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 11:54
What is true is the Government blamed . . .

What is not true is the Police said . . .
The Government said etc

What was said is the sources said . . .
What was said is it is believed that . . .

On PPRuNe is was argued that . . .
.

'Tis true... we really are going around in circles, but Wild accusations, the lack of any consistency from the government. coupled with an increasingly bizarre narrative, doesn't help!

racedo
5th Aug 2018, 11:59
​​​​​
against a national of this country, whose countrymen have used similar methods in the past?


Citizen not National


While it is conceivable that it is a sophisticated assassination by an organisation that is not Russian it is unlikely to be the usual suspects, ISIL, PIRA, Harmed etc. So who else? The US, the Germans, former WPC States, Israel? How about our closest ally? Now they do have form?
​​

Often looking close to home is a good way to start.

racedo
5th Aug 2018, 12:03
There's no public domain evidence of anyone other than Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess having suffered ill effects from A234 in the second incident that I'm aware of.
.

Strangely you were so dismissive of what I said below.

It is the who controls and releases the info that i always worry about.

One Outsider
5th Aug 2018, 12:05
The disclaimer that used to be at the bottom of the page is now more valid than ever.

A_Van
5th Aug 2018, 12:12
...... Skripal was a spy. We know that, because RT says so, and they are always honest, aren't they. A warning has been given to other spies not to follow his example.
​​​​

Not convincing at all. Skripal was already punished and spent some years in prison. If he was so bad, why to release him (not so long ago, BTW) and then undertake complex and risky operation to eliminate him abroad? If sending a warning, why not through many other dirty guys who remain unpunished, e.g. this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Gordievsky

or that one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_SuvorovWhile)

While in UK, they indeed continued making harm to Russia, while Skripal lived a quiet life.

For the attack on Skripal, Russia had the only clear motive, the opportunity, and the very particular means. Whether or not that was a direct order from the top, Russia was responsible.
​​​​

According to your logic when British football fans or drunked tourists abroad "spoil somebody's face", they all should be considered as "soldiers of T. May" and the victims should bring the UK government to court, not particular "fighters"? ;)

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 12:22
For the attack on Skripal, Russia had the only clear motive
That we cannot say for sure.

You must consider a malicious actor that wished to stir the pot given the current dysfunctional political environment, deflect the blame to Russia, or have motives that have yet to come to light. All we can say for sure is that this was made to look like Russia, allegedly in some very clumsy ways.

That the Government has stated recently via the Telegraph, Indy and others (and not disputed) "there is no current evidence of a link to the Russian Government" has been conveniently overlooked by many on this thread, and the (UK) media of course never took this statement any further.

One Outsider
5th Aug 2018, 18:49
Did you realize you protested too much, flash8, since you deleted your previous post? I think it is obvious that you are here not to express a "strong opinion" but for something entirely different.

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 18:55
Did you realize you protested too much, flash8, since you deleted your previous post? I think it is obvious that you are here not to express a "strong opinion" but for something entirely different.
Actually don't give a damn what you think to be honest.

VP959
5th Aug 2018, 19:22
FWIW, the poster here I have the most difficulty in trying to work out where they are coming from is racedo. I get the feeling that he strongly supports anything, however tenuous, that points towards any UK government conspiracy to kill British subjects (and all those subject to this attack were British, with the sole exception of Yulia Skripal).

Like many here, I suspect, I've seen first hand the way bits of government work. Organised it is not. The lack of competence in government has to be seen to be believed. Some will have seen that the level of competence is inversely proportional to the seniority of the people in the organisation. I hate to spoil any illusions, but frankly our government couldn't organise a conspiracy if their lives depended on it. What they excel at, as have previous governments before them, is incompetence that leads to endless cockups. When it comes to our government, cockup wins over conspiracy every time, IMHO.

DaveReidUK
5th Aug 2018, 19:30
What they excel at, as have previous governments before them, is incompetence that leads to endless cockups.

And of course the hubris to brazen things out when things go t*ts up.

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 19:44
Lest anyone have any doubt, I have no idea who committed this act, but I am inclined not to believe (yet) it is the Russian government, simply because the UK government has stated "it has no current evidence that the Russian government was involved", this is straight from the horses mouth into the Telegraph and other broadsheets... ignored by most people as they really don't pay attention to small items like this, and not taken further by the media likely because it certainly would not reflect well on anyone, Media or Government.

And yet they state this, and then say contradictory statements that they were involved, and then we have Sajid Javid's odd words that really should be deconstructed, when the Home Secretary refuses to condemn Russia for the death of an indigenous UK citizen and instead wheels out mealy mouthed obtuse statements you have to pay close attention, something the media simply isn't doing.

And the conduct of Boris Johnson (and Williamson) defies any belief, they were not dignified, respectful and stating that we will await the results of a Police investigation, no, they motor-mouthed their way (with absolutely no evidence) by digging a big hole (it could not have been bigger) that has no real way out, they backed the UK into a corner that they needn't have done. Putting that Porton Down chief in front of the media (the poor guy was terrified) to try and justify their stance was in my opinion disgraceful.

My point is we haven't had any straight honest credible information from them, much contradicts itself, and much changes/morphs as time goes by. My strong advice remains the same, don't believe anything you are told unless it can be logically fortified, swallowing the official narrative is hard for me, because the credibility simply isn't there.

And yes, greetings from Moscow.

Effluent Man
5th Aug 2018, 20:00
My view exactly. After months of mouthing off things have gone awfully quiet. I am in no way a supporter of Putin but the sudden cessation of the accusations coupled with the Javid statement speaks volumes. Our own government must be aware of how this looks to the outside world but they don't appear to be coming out fighting any more. It raises a lot of questions to say the least.

Sallyann1234
5th Aug 2018, 21:41
According to your logic when British football fans or drunked tourists abroad "spoil somebody's face", they all should be considered as "soldiers of T. May" and the victims should bring the UK government to court, not particular "fighters"? ;)
You think that attempting to kill someone with a state-produced WMD can be compared with football yobs getting drunk on locally produced alcohol.
Surely you can do better than that?

Sallyann1234
5th Aug 2018, 21:50
All we can say for sure is that this was made to look like Russia, allegedly in some very clumsy ways.
All you can say is that.

Alternatively, we can say that after the murder of Litvinenko which was very clearly the work of named Russian agents, the attack on Skripal may have deliberately left some loose ends so that apologists could suggest that it was only made to look like Russia.

And guess what - the usual suspects have done just that. :uhoh:

fitliker
5th Aug 2018, 21:55
Maybe , Those that have some sense realized that an enemy common to both the U.K and Russia has been playing them like a fiddle .

WW2 was a lot closer than most know.
If the Nazi's had of managed to divide the Allies ,They would have won easily . I would not rule out the rise of the Fourth Reich and their partners in these crimes , to divide would be allies against the rising tide of new age fascists . The new age fascists are usually easy to spot , their are staunch anti smoking vegans, that smell of urine like their Third Reich master. They are using the same play book as the early fascists , playing the victim card ,claiming to represent the forgotten, the workers, the veterans . Mussolini actually used the Fasci veterans groups of Sicily to form his underground political cells that put him in power,hence the term Fascist . They even had their very own media sources that they could control .The sad part is they do not even realize that they are following in the goosesteps of other people who fell under the spell of professional liars .
Where do you get your news ?............ but back to this particular event .....
These crimes make the Russians look dangerous . The crimes also highlight the dangers of chemical terror. Something that the " B" "team is now threatening the West with chemical and biologicals .
We should be better prepared for the next attack as I do not think the next attack will be as small as this one.
I hope I am wrong again :)

flash8
5th Aug 2018, 23:06
We should be better prepared for the next attack as I do not think the next attack will be as small as this one.
I hope I am wrong again :)
That is quite a fair point, and to be honest it never occurred to me to look forward (I didn't after Skripal and then a surprise), an attack in the past certainly heightens the chance of a future attack. Whoever the perpetrators are, this was an ideal "test run" of sorts for further mischief.

If I could have only one question answered (that could be answered today) it would be where did Charlie source that bottle from or did he genuinely as claimed "just pick it up" (but he is not sure where)?

My rationale is if he did hypothetically source it from a shop, we would never be told, that is absolutely certain.

And if he did, that changes the dynamics completely and would make a lot of people very worried.

I am sorry, I just can't get my head around this picked it up in the street, can't remember where, brand new sealed bottle of perfume (of which we have been told nothing naturally), and the instant character assassination of "Charlie" pre-formed for the media (Agreed might be going overboard a tad on the latter statement) but Charlie has disappeared into thin-air.

"As part of the ongoing investigation in Amesbury, officers are required to enter the Boots store on Stonehenge Walk this morning. This is to collect some CCTV footage and forms part of the routine, ongoing enquiries. These officers are likely to be wearing protective equipment on a precautionary basis and the public should not be alarmed by this. The current advice from Public Health England is that the risk to the public remains low," the Wiltshire Police said on Twitter.
This is the Boots that Charlie visited on the morning of the poisoning (allegedly to pick up Medicines which of course he may very well have done).
The story sounds odd from the beginning, entering Boots in full protective gear to collect some CCTV footage?
At this stage Charlie hadn't used the perfume he allegedly found wherever, this came later, so why the protective gear?
I'd bet a pound to a penny that this Boots sold the unidentified Perfume of the type similar to the one Charlie "found" (which for some odd reason they feel loathe to reveal anything about).


(Speculation: Perhaps after the delivery of the second poison the government realise that it made no sense the Russian Government were involved, they'd be the last people to do something so provocative as place in a retail outlet, hence their new "statement").

racedo
5th Aug 2018, 23:43
FWIW, the poster here I have the most difficulty in trying to work out where they are coming from is racedo. I get the feeling that he strongly supports anything, however tenuous, that points towards any UK government conspiracy to kill British subjects (and all those subject to this attack were British, with the sole exception of Yulia Skripal).


UK Govt has killed British Subjects in UK and NI and allowed 4-5 competing UK security agencies do what ever the hell they like,
Then when Chief Constable of Cambridgeshire started investigating they burnt the office his team using but seemingly he was well wise as ensured everything was copied and brought to London.

Not to forget the Stalker Inquiry where amazingly lots of allegation started to appear because he was friends with someone who Margaret Thatcher had met on numerous occasions as a leading Tory in Manchester but seemingly Stalker was getting close to some truths so needed to be destroyed.

So before you chuck allegations around its better to start looking at who has done stuff before or people like Fred Holyroyd / Colin Wallace and what they had got up to as part of the state.

Do I know who did it ?
Nope but little credible evidence produced to show suspects therefore those who have the potential are suspects until they can be ruled out.



Like many here, I suspect, I've seen first hand the way bits of government work. Organised it is not. The lack of competence in government has to be seen to be believed. Some will have seen that the level of competence is inversely proportional to the seniority of the people in the organisation. I hate to spoil any illusions, but frankly our government couldn't organise a conspiracy if their lives depended on it. What they excel at, as have previous governments before them, is incompetence that leads to endless cockups. When it comes to our government, cockup wins over conspiracy every time, IMHO.

Problem with that idea is a group operating together on same agenda can be every effective subject to sticking to their agenda and keeping outsiders out.
UK business people allied with military (ex) and monied people have been quiet happy to destabilise and change Govts abroad to aid their wealth and standing.
Doing it on a bigger scale is just as possible just need to get right trigger point.

racedo
5th Aug 2018, 23:46
All you can say is that.

Alternatively, we can say that after the murder of Litvinenko which was very clearly the work of named Russian agents, the attack on Skripal may have deliberately left some loose ends so that apologists could suggest that it was only made to look like Russia.

And guess what - the usual suspects have done just that. :uhoh:

You have failed to prove they are Russian agents..........

Previously working for Military is proof of zilch.

Sallyann1234
6th Aug 2018, 07:41
And here they come, right on cue :ok:

Effluent Man
6th Aug 2018, 07:58
Sally, you are being unfair in your implications that those of us who take a contrary view are pro Putin. You know that I have bee on here a long while, and I (sort of) agree with you on some matters and disagree on others. On this particular issue I see the case as Not Proven against anyone. VP seems to know more about this kind of thing than anyone on here and he doesn't see state involvement either.

But are you alleging that being careless with their Novichok makes them responsible? Well yes in a way I see that too but it does rather lower the offence from murder to a charge of Death by Dangerous meddling with chemicals. Finally, can you explain the continued silence? If potential operatives have been identified

Sallyann1234
6th Aug 2018, 08:39
Fair questions.
Without viewing the evidence, and as in any criminal case there is no reason for evidence to be released until the investigation is completed and decisions on possible charges are made, we can all of us only speculate.
My own personal speculation is that since the Novichok is of a variety specifically identified as coming from what is now Russia, it is most likely that Russia is involved. To what degree Putin or his minions were personally involved, we will never know.
What we are getting now from the usual suspects is the smokescreen of whatabouteries - this case and that case.
Yes it is possible to think of alternative scenarios. We can all think of some far more likely than the stuff being handed out by Boots.

A_Van
6th Aug 2018, 10:00
As this is an aviation forum, use of technical terms seems appropriate. So, there are axioms to be accepted without a proof, and theorems that need a certain logical chain to get to the final point.

Obviously, if anybody takes it as an axiom that any (negatively looking) event where Russians are involved originate from orders of the "bloody regime", no arguments work. It's like a blind faith. Yes, anybody has a right for such faith, though.

But for those who prefer some analysis, many untied strings are seen clearly.Yes, I agree with Sallyvan1234 that having some Russians behind the story is the most likely scenario. But, IMHO, not the government (though I am not a Putin's voter, neither work for gov't), but some mob. At least such accusations towards the government should be solidly proven.

Moreover, as of now, there was no official confirmation that А-234 (or whatever its index is) came from Russia. All that was written in media was a sort of "I heard it through the grapevine" from reliable source(s). The argument that it was first synthesized there is very weak, either. Who would blame UK or US for the VX attack in the Tokyo metro, or for a recent murder of the "fat Kim's" brother at the KLIA airport? But VX was invented in UK and then sold to US. Gross negligence? Or blaming the Germans wherever sarin was used. US had A-234, also Germany, Sweden, Czeck, etc. including the UK Porton Down facility (otherwise they would not be able to identify it). Where is an official report from, say, OPCW, that was also agreed with Russia? I don't think that Russia would refuse to sign it if it is true because actually it does not matter too much: everybody knows (and VP959 wrote excellent paras on this matter) that in 90's the security at such facilities was bad, to say nothing of facilities in other (than Russia) former republics of the USSR. But all requests from Russia to be involved in the investigation (e.g. under the OPCW) were rejected, which is, BTW, a clear violation of the OPCW charter and agreed procedures.

Fitter2
6th Aug 2018, 10:53
Moreover, as of now, there was no official confirmation that А-234 (or whatever its index is) came from Russia
But all requests from Russia to be involved in the investigation (e.g. under the OPCW) were rejected, which is, BTW, a clear violation of the OPCW charter and agreed procedures.

Parroting statements supporting the Kremlin line is understandable for a Moscow source; that doesn't make them true.

VP959
6th Aug 2018, 11:31
I know not many will bother to plough through the documents provided as links here, unless they are really interested in something, but I've twice posted this link https://www.stimson.org/sites/default/files/file-attachments/Report17_1.pdf that contains some useful information on the dire state of the former USSR chemical weapons facilities when an international team inspected them in 1995.

To save people reading the whole report if they don't have the time, here are some quotes from the introduction that reinforce the fact that these facilities simply were not secure or safe at that time, a time when Russia was more like the Wild West than an organised nation, with criminals grabbing anything they could, including former state assets, in order to pursue their aims. It strikes me that pretty much anyone could have obtained anything at that time, if they wanted to, and that the Russian government was not in a position to control anything much back then. Bear in mind this was written following inspections in 1995.

Introduction

Michael Krepon

A strange fate has befallen the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC). Enmeshed in partisan wrangling between the executive and legislative branches, the CWC remains in limbo, both in Washington and Moscow. Hearings have been held and reports filed, but no votes have been taken in either country. In other words, the two countries most required for the CWC's successful entry into force have yet to ratify the accord. With Moscow in a reactive mode, the task of prompting the CWC's ratification and successful implementation falls on Washington. If the Senate consents to the CWC's ratification, there is no assurance that the Duma will follow. If, however, the Senate fails to act, there is little incentive for the Duma to stretch from its defensive crouch. As this collection of essays acknowledges, the decision before the Senate is not free of complication. The toughest questions are tackled directly in the pages that follow. Will Russian authorities be able to comply with treaty provisions even if they want to because of insufficient resources? What if Russian authorities do not want to comply fully with the CWC? As Amy Smithson makes abundantly clear in her lead essay, Russian security for existing stocks is insufficient. Ms. Smithson observes that "Russia's chemical weapons storage sites appear to be vulnerable to theft from within and attack from without." Given the frightening example of the terrorist use of chemical weapons in Japan in March and April of 1995, she concludes that "The price of assisting Russia now is much lower than the cost that may be incurred later if this problem is not promptly addressed."

While many of the corrective measures advocated by Ms. Smithson are inexpensive and essential for the security of Russian citizens, even these small steps may be difficult for the Russian government to take. Moscow may be forced to split scarce rubles between improved security and destruction of the Russian stockpile, she notes, increasing the likelihood that progress will be slow and insufficient on both fronts. U.S. interests will best be served if these tasks are accomplished quickly and well. Russian compliance with the CWC must be proven for it cannot be assumed. Yet Russia has no obligations to stop development of new chemical agents or to dismantle existing stocks without the CWC's entry into force. Those concerned with the possibility of Russian noncompliance need the investigative tools that the CWC provides. The advice of Russian whistleblower Dr. Vil S. Mirzayanov is especially important in this regard. "I now understand that the CWC provides the means to bring the Russian chemical weapons complex under international monitoring," he states. "If the CWC's procedures are not instituted, the Russian chemical weapons complex will remain accountable only to the same clique of leaders, who have thus far not proven their trustworthiness." Mirzayanov, a former employee of the Soviet chemical complex and prisoner of conscience for revealing chemical weapons-related activities, notes that Russians as well as Americans who wish for a complete accounting and halt to prohibited chemical weapons activities will be badly hurt by non-ratification.

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 11:35
The British government, courtesy of a few Ministers and ex-Minister have backed themselves into a corner, and dug a ditch so deep that extrication is nigh on impossible, all on the apparent basis of flimsy conjecture. You don't need to be a Russophile to deduce that, just have some commonsense.

As such they have very little choice in the matter any more, they have to follow the path they have set themselves (or low-profile it as they seem to have done, hoping it might just disappear).

Personally I think that is a very dangerous game, as fitliker states, this may be a precursor to further attacks, ones that may not be able to be contain narrative wise, and previous government statements may have played directly into the perpetrators hands.

It might spiral out of control to an extent the narrative breaks apart if this happens.

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 11:40
a time when Russia was more like the Wild West
Indeed VP, my first trip to Moscow was in January 1999, and the country was in a state of collapse. You really had to be there to experience it, but it was a very dark time, with very mysterious characters and anything was possible, anything. To a young man of course this was exhilarating and oddly I enjoyed it (as my Russian girlfriend told me at the time, the only reason you like it is because you can leave anytime...).

Much propaganda about Russia but not the state of the country in the 1990's, it was literally on its knees.

It was only after I moved here Dec 99 that gradually over the years normality returned.

Fitter2
6th Aug 2018, 11:41
Commonsense would dictate that many countries, some less than amicable to the UK, would not expel dozens of 'diplomats' on the basis of 'flimsy conjecture', but on the basis of clear (but not publically publishable for a number of obvious reasons).

It might spiral out of control to an extent the narrative breaks apart if this happens.

And pigs might fly, or the Russian government admit to their many criminal acts - but I'm not holding my breath until that happens.

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 11:47
Commonsense would dictate that many countries, some less than amicable to the UK, would not expel dozens of 'diplomats' on the basis of 'flimsy conjecture', but on the basis of clear (but not publically publishable for a number of obvious reasons).


Fitter2, your faith in the Government is quaintly endearing.. but commonsense? When ever has this Government shown commonsense? They shoot themselves in the foot every minute... and that's without Boris. They are a laughing stock internationally.

Other countries may well have their own motives, often likely having nothing to do with the UK's ostensible reasons.

BehindBlueEyes
6th Aug 2018, 11:55
I’m probably going to be shot down here for my naivety, but Sergei Skripal was a Russian military intelligence officer who was a double agent for the U.K. - fact.

There are only two sides in this; no other country had any interest in him.

There is is no obvious reason why the British would want to eliminate him, after all, he was benefiting us and we had given him asylum.

So, now we’re down to the one remaining side.

Although Skripal now has UK citizenship, as far as the Russians are concerned, he is still also a Russian citizen and therefore, still answerable to their authorities.

I’m still convinced that although the Kremlin might not be directly behind the attack, there were many with scores to settle or the possibly he holds information that should it be disclosed would expose other double agents. Don’t forget, many countries’ secret services, although paying lip service to their governments, work independently. Even our own ministers are sometimes subject to MI5 investigation, so one wonders who the masters actually are?

VP959
6th Aug 2018, 12:01
Indeed VP, my first trip to Moscow was in January 1999, and the country was in a state of collapse. You really had to be there to experience it, but it was a very dark time, with very mysterious characters and anything was possible, anything. To a young man of course this was exhilarating and oddly I enjoyed it (as my Russian girlfriend told me at the time, the only reason you like it is because you can leave anytime...).

Much propaganda about Russia but not the state of the country in the 1990's, it was literally on its knees.

It was only after I moved here Dec 99 that gradually over the years normality returned.

Thanks for confirming that. From all I've read pretty much anything and everything that had been under USSR state control was effectively under no control at all for a period in the 1990s, until the Russian government got it's act together and managed to bring a lot of the "bad boys" under control and regained some control over key state facilities. The success of the Russian government in bringing things under control seems very much down to Vladimir Putin, who has used a mix of strong arm tactics, bribery and, most importantly, promising (and delivering on that promise) to give ordinary Russians back the pride in their country that they have always felt under their skin.

I think the mistake the West makes is to assume that Vladimir Putin and the Russian government have absolute control. As far as I can see they don't. They have done a pretty good job of regulating some of the big enterprises, but there are still a lot of criminals around who have access to assets and information that could easily make them seem to be behaving as state actors. I also think that in bringing the Russian state back into some semblance of control, promises were made that, with hindsight, may now be a hindrance. I'm not convinced that Vladimir Putin could have straightened Russia out any other way though, as the alternative may well have been unthinkable - accept so much help from the West that Russia effectively became a lapdog - no one from Russia that I know would have accepted that. I'm sure.

fitliker
6th Aug 2018, 13:34
Round up the usual suspects . :)

Pontius Navigator
6th Aug 2018, 14:20
Fitter2, your faith in the Government is quaintly endearing.. but commonsense? When ever has this Government shown commonsense

​​​​
Other countries may well have their own motives, often likely having nothing to do with the UK's ostensible reasons.
Flash, nice deviation. Fitter was referring to your common sense not the Government s.

Indeed, maybe other countries thought, no giidy, just the excuse we need.

Really, common sense . .

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 15:33
Flash, nice deviation. Fitter was referring to your common sense not the Government s.

Indeed, maybe other countries thought, no giidy, just the excuse we need.

Really, common sense . .
Guilty as charged PN, that was a genuine mistake, or perhaps wishful thinking!

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 15:57
UK poised to ask Russia to extradite Salisbury attack suspects

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/06/uk-poised-to-ask-russia-to-extradite-salisbury-attack-suspects

From the Guardian as an exclusive, however only from unconfirmed sources, so could change by tomorrow. However assuming this is correct, it certainly ups the stakes!
I do note however the Russia state is not being implicated at this stage, and if they are found to be without evidence of any involvement, this still reflects badly on the UK both in foreign relations and intelligence.
Still, some news of worthy note.

Edited to add link.

Pontius Navigator
6th Aug 2018, 17:21
UK poised to ask Russia to extradite Salisbury attack suspects

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/06/uk-poised-to-ask-russia-to-extradite-salisbury-attack-suspects

From the Guardian as an exclusive, however only from unconfirmed sources, so could change by tomorrow. However assuming this is correct, it certainly ups the stakes!
I do note however the Russia state is not being implicated at this stage, and if they are found to be without evidence of any involvement, this still reflects badly on the UK both in foreign relations and intelligence.
Still, some news of worthy note.

Edited to add link.

Ah, we can take that as the truth then.

A former editor who also wrote letters to the Torygraph was known as an agent of influence.

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 17:58
Ah, we can take that as the truth then.

A former editor who also wrote letters to the Torygraph was known as an agent of influence.
Well it was co-written by Luke Harding... (who I once had the displeasure to meet in the Piramida bar, a place as sleazy as Mr Harding) and who is capable of fantastic fiction. Apparently now banned from Russia we can thank the Lord for small mercies.
And indeed, no other paper has yet even touched the story with a barge pole, and it is only unnamed "sources" so far.
But, still could be true.

Nige321
6th Aug 2018, 21:45
Well it was co-written by Luke Harding... (who I once had the displeasure to meet in the Piramida bar, a place as sleazy as Mr Harding) and who is capable of fantastic fiction. Apparently now banned from Russia we can thank the Lord for small mercies.
And indeed, no other paper has yet even touched the story with a barge pole, and it is only unnamed "sources" so far.
But, still could be true.

Yes they have, teh Telegraph for a start, 4 hours after the Guardian. And it took you 2 hours to see it...

TEEEJ
6th Aug 2018, 21:58
All of the evidence released in the public domain states that Sgt Nick Bailey suffered from A234 poisoning, and the official version is that he was contaminated when he visited the Skripal house. The hospital staff confirmed he'd been treated for the same nerve agent poisoning as the Skripals, so where does the story that the "police officer showed no signs of nerve agent poisoning" come from?

Hi VP. The discussion between BehindBlueEyes and myself was about the second poisoning incident.

BehindBlueEyes wrote

I have close connections in Salisbury and find it also very interesting that the following fact has never been reported.

A police car involved in the second poisoning incident in June was taken away and destroyed - possibly covered in the press? What wasn’t ever mentioned was that that police officer’s private car was also removed AND that of his civilian wife and have not been returned (if ever) Why? He is still around the area, although not apparently on active duty.

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-106.html#post10213773

flash8
6th Aug 2018, 23:11
Actually reading the articles, Telegraph and Guardian has left me a tad disappointed... as it states an extradition order may be "weeks or months" away (read many months), and now Charlie has apparently picked up the discarded bottle (despite insisting it was sealed), which could be true, but yet again mutates the narrative. Also we may never know, for various reasons.

Neither the Metropolitan Police, which has been leading the investigation into the attack, nor the CPS was prepared to discuss the report.

The Home Office said that as a matter of long-standing policy and practice, the UK would neither confirm nor deny an extradition request had been made or received until such time as an arrest has been made in relation to that request.



It seems we are still in la-la land

And it took you 2 hours to see it...
Believe it or not Nige321, sometimes my boss calls me away from the keyboard to ask a question or attend a meeting... or this evening to run downstairs and buy him some hot chicken from one of the cities few remaining kiosks... disrupting my internet surfing time :ugh: I am a well paid lackey... for the need of a better description.

WingNut60
7th Aug 2018, 00:40
If there is no extradition request, why on earth would you "neither confirm nor deny"?
And if there has been an extradition request, why on earth would you "neither confirm nor deny"?
Just by using that phrase you are pretty much "confirming", aren't you?

VP959
7th Aug 2018, 06:32
As I understand it, Russia never agrees to extradition requests regarding Russian citizens anyway, so it would be a pointless exercise. If it turns out that the attackers were Russian, then one of two things will probably happen. They will either be protected to some degree by the Russian government with loud protestations that there is no evidence against them,and they are just innocent Russian citizens, or perhaps they will quietly disappear if what they are alleged to have done has pissed off others in Russia (doesn't seem that likely to me). I don't believe for one moment that they will ever leave Russia and face trial here.

To all intents and purposes I suspect this case is closed, effectively, but because there is always a slim chance that it might be re-opened and extradition may be a possibility at some future date, none of the key evidence collected will be released into the public domain, lest it spoil the chance of a fair trial.

I don't even think there's any time limitation on how long a murder case can stay open - so I doubt that we'll ever find our what evidence has been collected in our lifetimes.

flash8
7th Aug 2018, 13:23
To all intents and purposes I suspect this case is closed
I fear you may be correct VP, but for different reasons. There has been a subtle backing off accusing the Russian state recently, and even leaks suggesting highly that the UK Government has no proof those involved had any connection.

The story has already dropped off the Radar of the broadsheets (within a day), and put to bed so to speak, this "leak" no doubt may have been engineered to finish the story off.

I doubt that we'll ever find our what evidence has been collected in our lifetimes.
I am sure we will see something credible or not, if it fits the narrative, if it doesn't (which I suspect) we'll never see it.

Looking at the comments section of the Mail*, indicative at least of some members of the UK right'ish population (or Russian population those who insist on seeing it that see it that way) the vast majority view the entire story as Government fiction. It is very telling, because the very few times the Broadsheets also have allowed commenting the comments are overwhelmingly disbelieving by the populace. Holding a Telegraph subscription (paywalled) they usually allow commenting on such matters, even there, with paid memberships, mostly Tory voters are calling the entire scenario extremely dodgy to say the least.

For what is worth, and I am not discounting Russian involvement, many people in the UK if sentiment can be measured this way find the Governments version of events lacking any credibility. Not all, but even potentially a majority.

*UK to ask Russia to extradite suspects in nerve agent attack | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6032011/UK-poised-ask-Russia-extradite-suspects-nerve-agent-attack-Guardian-newspaper.html#comments) (order by Best Rated)

Trust in Government is rightly at historically all time low records (in the UK) because time and time again they lie, are caught lying, but continue as if it is business as normal (heads up their backsides). It really is a far wider issue than Skripal, and speaks much of where things are heading, a complete erosion of trust, leading to undesirable consequences.

VP959
7th Aug 2018, 14:37
Whilst I'm in no doubt that our government screwed up really badly with their knee-jerk reaction to blame the Russian government, long before they had any credible evidence that pointed to this being a government-sponsored operation, I honestly don't believe they've done anything worse than just made some really bad diplomatic screw-ups.

I can't believe that the UK government were culpable in trying to kill the Skripals, or that they somehow rigged things so that the same agent ended up being picked up and subsequently killed Dawn Sturgess and made Charlie Rowley ill. One thing I learned years ago is that you just don't screw around with agents of this toxicity and persistence, they have no smell, don't readily evaporate or degrade, are damned difficult to decontaminate and are lethal in very, very tiny doses. Once "out in the wild" stuff like this is easily passed from one surface to another by clothing, gloves etc, with no way of predicting who may or may not get a lethal dose. If the UK government wanted to take action against the Skripals I've no doubt they had the means to do so in such a way that they would be killed, and that their deaths would appear to be from natural causes, or an easily explained accident. Apart from anything else, the UK government has no motive to kill the Skripals, he's ancient history and poses no threat at all.

Someone else must have had a motive to try and kill them, and I doubt it was anyone working with any government at all. He must have pissed a lot of people off during his career, especially after he was found out to be a traitor. We know very little about the information he passed to the UK security services whilst he was working for them, but it's reasonable to guess it had value and may well have put the lives of other Russians in jeopardy. The information he passed on may even have led to the deaths of some Russians, for all we know. That'd be motive enough for someone to either try and kill him, or, perhaps, hire someone to do it, sending a message to others at the same time.

Effluent Man
7th Aug 2018, 16:28
That pretty much squares with my own theory, and probably with most of those who have had accusations of being Russian trolls levelled at them. I think the one thing that our government could do now is to come clean and admit this. The two most culpable are Boris and the stupid boy. The former has gone and the latter could easily be consigned to the dustbin of politics without any great loss, would at least restore some credibility.

flash8
7th Aug 2018, 17:00
Oh, certainly not suggesting the UK government had anything to do with this, for one hundred odd reasons. I could believe a lot of shit they could do (and likely do) but this, well, certainly not this way at least.

You have VP, remained very consistent from the start regarding a non-state Actor(s) being the culprits, and going by current leaks, I'd not hesitate to guess you are 100% correct.

Of course, the damage is done, by a mendacious Boris combined with a grossly out of his depth Defence Secretary, and this may be well of a greater issue in the longer term.

racedo
7th Aug 2018, 21:50
I can't believe that the UK government were culpable in trying to kill the Skripals, .

But just as Russia has a Mafia so also does UK but this one wears suits and is welcomed and feted by people for their charity giving.
This one sits in Boardrooms and Banks, plus it is well able to engage in Economic terrorism provided there is a big enough profit
or engage services of others to do so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Equatorial_Guinea_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt#Jeffrey_Arch er

Understanding whom is to gain and it generally isn't that obvious can lead one to breadcrumbs left behind.

Nige321
7th Aug 2018, 22:48
Actually reading the articles, Telegraph and Guardian has left me a tad disappointed... as it states an extradition order may be "weeks or months" away (read many months), and now Charlie has apparently picked up the discarded bottle (despite insisting it was sealed), which could be true, but yet again mutates the narrative. Also we may never know, for various reasons.





It seems we are still in la-la land


Believe it or not Nige321, sometimes my boss calls me away from the keyboard to ask a question or attend a meeting... or this evening to run downstairs and buy him some hot chicken from one of the cities few remaining kiosks... disrupting my internet surfing time :ugh: I am a well paid lackey... for the need of a better description.

As ever you miss the point. You were adamant that "no other paper has yet even touched the story with a barge pole"
Wrong again, the Telegraphs writers were beavering away as you typed this rubbish...

fitliker
8th Aug 2018, 01:43
Hunting the common enemy will not be easy as Russia and the UK between them have acquired a few over the centuries .
Finding the Who , and the Why will solve itself.

VP959
8th Aug 2018, 06:38
Finding who managed to get a 100mg of a specific sample of A-234 out of Shikhany, across Europe, to Salisbury, and who expedited that acquisition, transfer to a delivery container and transport across Europe will be key too.

All countries have criminals, organised or otherwise, and in essence this is like any other criminal investigation. It does have two fixed geographic starting points though, the origin of this specific sample of agent, Shikany, in Russia (perhaps 20 to 25 years ago), and the location of the attack, Salisbury, UK. Who knows what real evidence the police have regarding any suspects who are connected to both these places in some way? Nothing seems to have been released that tells us anything that could be specific as to their identity. Fake passports are around in abundance. so any names and countries of origin have to be suspect, if they were derived from passport data.

TEEEJ
8th Aug 2018, 19:27
Aug 8th, 2018

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is hitting Russia with new sanctions (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/new-russia-sanctions-will-likely-target-oligarchs-close-putin-n862996) punishing President Vladimir Putin's government for using a chemical weapon against and ex-spy in Britain. U.S. officials told NBC News Wednesday.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has signed off on a determination that Russia violated international law by poisoning Sergei Skripal and his daughter in March, the officials said. Although the U.S. joined European countries in publicly blaming Moscow within days of the attack, Trump's administration had never issued the formal determination that triggers automatic sanctions under a decades-old U.S. law on chemical weapons.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-administration-hit-russia-new-sanctions-skripal-poisoning-n898856

Nige321
8th Aug 2018, 22:11
So much for flash8s theory that Britain has no support. Boris is on holiday so he won’t have had a hand in this..l��

Jack D
8th Aug 2018, 22:36
There have been informative and excellent logical posts on this topic .. plus a few fabulous conspiracy theories.. great entertainment .
I like to keep things concise, we all know where this toxin came from and we all know there is Russian involvement, at what level who can be sure at the moment.
The chickens are slowly coming home to roost. As I have said before, all will be revealed in good time.
It will be denied of course the Russians will lie and know full well that you know they are lying but will
continue to do so ... btw not my quote but an historical
observation , FDR or W Churchill .
Chapeau to the Yanks, poor old Donald T outmanouevred by Congress, VP won’t be happy.
Never underestimate the quality of the British intelligence Services, right up there with the Russians
without the obvious “ removal” of irritating individuals, journalists, opposition party members, gay rights activists and so on ... I agree Boris is not involved he should also not be underestimated as a politician , he’s nobody’s fool .

Flash2001
9th Aug 2018, 02:23
"Russians will lie and know full well that you know they are lying but will
continue to do so"

So much the same as other governments then...

Jack D
9th Aug 2018, 03:47
"Russians will lie and know full well that you know they are lying but will
continue to do so"

So much the same as other governments then...

yes but rather more blatantly and without finesse

Krystal n chips
9th Aug 2018, 05:02
Finding who managed to get a 100mg of a specific sample of A-234 out of Shikhany, across Europe, to Salisbury, and who expedited that acquisition, transfer to a delivery container and transport across Europe will be key too.



That's interesting to learn, because that's a very specific figure and quantity.

Which begs the question, because so far to be best of my knowledge, the quantity of agent hasn't been published in the public domain

A link to the source would be appreciated therefore. Unless it was just a random figure for JB that is.

Mind you, it could have come in with a packet of fish fingers.....this far from outlandish suggestion based on the recent "Inside the Factory " programme where it emerged the population of Salisbury are the UK's most prolific consumers of the product.... after all, .you never know with the dark world of "Spy vs Spy"

" Boris is on holiday so he won’t have had a hand in this"


Ah, just one small flaw in the above. Whether Boris is on his hols or not is completely irrelevant .......unlike, say, the relevancy of him no longer being Foreign Secretary perhaps ?

Nige321
9th Aug 2018, 07:38
That's interesting to learn, because that's a very specific figure and quantity.

Which begs the question, because so far to be best of my knowledge, the quantity of agent hasn't been published in the public domain

A link to the source would be appreciated therefore. Unless it was just a random figure for JB that is.

Mind you, it could have come in with a packet of fish fingers.....this far from outlandish suggestion based on the recent "Inside the Factory " programme where it emerged the population of Salisbury are the UK's most prolific consumers of the product.... after all, .you never know with the dark world of "Spy vs Spy"

" Boris is on holiday so he won’t have had a hand in this"


Ah, just one small flaw in the above. Whether Boris is on his hols or not is completely irrelevant .......unlike, say, the relevancy of him no longer being Foreign Secretary perhaps ?


Your knowledge isn't the best then, is it.
Former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned with up to 100 milligrams of the nerve agent novichok, a chemical weapons watchdog has said.
Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/salisbury-attack-skripals-poisoned-with-up-to-100g-of-novichok-nerve-agent-says-watchdog-11357769)

KelvinD
9th Aug 2018, 07:45
What do these new US sanctions amount to?
According to the BBC " The new sanctions will take effect on or around 22 August, and relate to the exports of sensitive electronic components and other technologies. "
Not a great deal, I would say.

KelvinD
9th Aug 2018, 07:49
Nige321: It may have been better if you had provided the whole quote:
"For research activities or protection you would need, for instance, five to 10 milligrams or so, but even in Salisbury it looks like they may have used more than that, without knowing the exact quantity, I am told it may be 50, 100 milligrams or so, which goes beyond research activities for protection.
They don't know the exact quantity and it could have been 50mg.

Fitter2
9th Aug 2018, 07:51
I wondered why the Kremlin funded trolls had been stepping up their activities lately. Did they know this was coming, and who told them?

VP959
9th Aug 2018, 08:13
Nige321: It may have been better if you had provided the whole quote:

"For research activities or protection you would need, for instance, five to 10 milligrams or so, but even in Salisbury it looks like they may have used more than that, without knowing the exact quantity, I am told it may be 50, 100 milligrams or so, which goes beyond research activities for protection.

They don't know the exact quantity and it could have been 50mg.

As already quoted, the quantity of agent used has been estimated as being 50 to 100mg - I used the upper figure.