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Andy_S
19th Mar 2018, 11:16
The only gem I take out all of this is that Russia definitely had nothing to do with it.

Apologies in advance if I misunderstood, or there is some form of irony in your post which went right over my head, but is that seriously what you believe? That Russia definitely had nothing to do with Skripal's poisoning?

DroneDog
19th Mar 2018, 11:34
Yes.... indeed. Enough of the sabre rattling, its all been done before.

Laarbruch72
19th Mar 2018, 11:36
Apologies in advance if I misunderstood, or there is some form of irony in your post which went right over my head, but is that seriously what you believe? That Russia definitely had nothing to do with Skripal's poisoning?

I thought the same. And at the same time he stated that:

"not one solid piece of evidence exists actually liking the Russians to this bond movie style attack"

Despite the fact that like most of us, he can't possibly have any idea at this stage what evidence there may be. So knowing both these things would be quite a trick.

I think it can only be an ironic post and it's gone over both our heads.

DroneDog
19th Mar 2018, 11:50
It is just...we have all been here before, many times. Told that one nation poses a clear threat to the western world and in we go. Only to find said nation can nearly keep a bus service running on time and it was all about the natural resources.

EDIt spelling fix..autocorrect strikes again.

Laarbruch72
19th Mar 2018, 12:20
DroneDog: That makes no sense whatsoever, (both from a syntax point of view and probably a logic point of view, if I get the gist of what you're saying).

You stated that not one solid piece of evidence exists actually liking the Russians to this... attack. You stated that "Russia definitely had nothing to do with it". But for someone so very keen on evidence, you're surprisingly keen to avoid offering any evidence to support your stance. Instead you've gone off on a tangent, if I read it rightly it's probably something to do with Iraq? Talk about smoke and mirrors when your original point just won't stand up.

It's okay if you're sometimes not sure either way, especially when you don't have the facts. Taking up a strong stance without facts however is foolhardy.

currawong
19th Mar 2018, 12:30
Who has form for this type of operation?

Who stands to gain from heightened tensions between East and West?

If the chemical agent is what they say, and it was developed during the Soviet era, then the technology was almost certainly transferred during the nineties.

Take a stab at one nation that ticks all those boxes.

Clue - its not one of the major players.

Stan Woolley
19th Mar 2018, 12:32
It's okay if you're sometimes not sure either way, especially when you don't have the facts. Taking up a strong stance without facts however is foolhardy.

Taking up a strong stance without facts is becoming normalised with the governments of certain countries. That’s what concerns me and should be of concern to all of us.

They’ve burned their bridges when it comes to trust. Once bitten, twice shy.

DroneDog
19th Mar 2018, 12:34
The strong stance has already been taken by the UK gov and the tabloid UK press are dancing to the same tune, hence my conclusion they have nothing to do with it.

Jack D
19th Mar 2018, 12:44
They just can’t help themselves !
“Ukrainian fighter pilot accused by Russia of shooting down MH 17 commmits suicide. “
As far as I or anyone else knows a sukhoi fighter can’t deploy a BUK ground to air missile

Plenty of extremely reliable & independent evidence available or are there some here who think otherwise ?

VP959
19th Mar 2018, 13:27
They just can’t help themselves !
“Ukrainian fighter pilot accused by Russia of shooting down MH 17 commmits suicide. “
As far as I or anyone else knows a sukhoi fighter can’t deploy a BUK ground to air missile

Plenty of extremely reliable & independent evidence available or are there some here who think otherwise ?

Some here seem to make it their mission in life to ignore evidence and fabricate alternative views that seem detached from reality, so who knows?

From what's been reported the young man had been suffering from depression, whether or not the daft accusation that he had shot down MH17 played a part in that only he knew.

There seemed to be strong evidence from the Dutch investigation that proved that a Buk ground to air missile shot MH17 down, not an air to air engagement, so quite why he was ever put under suspicion is itself a bit of a mystery.

Viper 7
19th Mar 2018, 14:10
Thanks for your input VP, fascinating stuff.


Applying the five "Ws" to this incident is an interesting exercise:


Who? - The source of the nerve agent is definite. NK just had a similar assassination - the only other use of chem wpn I'm aware of for an assassination. Is that relevant?


What? - Nerve agent that is extremely difficult to transport and handle.


When? - Is the timing relevant or random?


Where? - Again, is the proximity of chemical warfare forces relevant?


Why? - ...when a knife or suppressed wpn or almost anything would have been vastly easier? Is the method relevant? Personal?


Is the use of a chemical weapon on foreign soil an act of war, and if it is argued it is not because of the scale (3 pers), where is the line drawn for numbers of casualties?


Hang in there,


V7

Buster15
19th Mar 2018, 14:53
I must say I have found VP959’s information fascinating.

Yes I agree with that as well so thank you VP959 for your excellent inputs on this very complex subject.
I trust that the UK findings will be validated by the specialists quite soon. We simply cannot get this wrong. It would be a disaster.

KelvinD
19th Mar 2018, 15:27
It was interesting to hear BoJo claim, on the Andrew Marr show, that "we have evidence of Russia manufacturing and storing nerve agents". And no doubt that evidence will be made available as soon as his typist gets it finished!
Meanwhile, that other well known lunatic, George Galloway, made a good point recently.
He made the point that the only other casualty in this affair, besides the Skripals, was the Wiltshire policeman. He had been to the Skripal's home. So far, there has been no mention of anybody at Zizzi's restaurant or in the park being affected. Two weeks after the event and still only 3 casualties. Due to the unfortunate policeman's having been the only other person to have been inside the Skripal's home, Galloway theorised the poison had been deployed within the home itself.
Incidentally, I wonder why the police officer was sent to their home in the first place? If something untoward such as a nerve agent had been suspected, his bosses would surely never have sanctioned a search of the home without all the requisite protection?
One other point Galloway raised was that Mr. Skripal had allegedly been making regular trips to and from Moscow over the last few years and was unharmed. An interesting allegation, if true.

Buster15
19th Mar 2018, 15:37
Meanwhile, that other well known lunatic, George Galloway, made a good point recently.

If he is that much of a lunatic why are you talking any notice of what he is saying???

Mike6567
19th Mar 2018, 16:07
Has it been stated from an official source where the unfortunate Sergeant Nick Bailey was infected?

grateful_pax
19th Mar 2018, 16:08
They just can’t help themselves !
“Ukrainian fighter pilot accused by Russia of shooting down MH 17 commmits suicide. “
As far as I or anyone else knows a sukhoi fighter can’t deploy a BUK ground to air missile

This "suicide" is being investigated as murder btw. That poor guy seems to be involved in some shady mafia schemes around the Mykolaiv Airport reconstruction. He was 29 yo and his son has some rare disease... He really needed a lot of money.

VP959
19th Mar 2018, 16:08
It was interesting to hear BoJo claim, on the Andrew Marr show, that "we have evidence of Russia manufacturing and storing nerve agents". And no doubt that evidence will be made available as soon as his typist gets it finished!
Meanwhile, that other well known lunatic, George Galloway, made a good point recently.
He made the point that the only other casualty in this affair, besides the Skripals, was the Wiltshire policeman. He had been to the Skripal's home. So far, there has been no mention of anybody at Zizzi's restaurant or in the park being affected. Two weeks after the event and still only 3 casualties. Due to the unfortunate policeman's having been the only other person to have been inside the Skripal's home, Galloway theorised the poison had been deployed within the home itself.
Incidentally, I wonder why the police officer was sent to their home in the first place? If something untoward such as a nerve agent had been suspected, his bosses would surely never have sanctioned a search of the home without all the requisite protection?
One other point Galloway raised was that Mr. Skripal had allegedly been making regular trips to and from Moscow over the last few years and was unharmed. An interesting allegation, if true.


I'm pretty sure that the last thing anyone thought of in the first few hours of the incident would have been a nerve agent attack. That area of The Maltings tends to attract a few drunks from time to time, and I would hazard a guess that the initial thoughts by the first attenders may well have been that the victims had just had too much too drink.

It took some time before it was recognised as a possible nerve agent attack, so quite a few people had contact with the victims without suitable protective clothing. One thing that may have protected some of the first responders is that even just wearing surgical gloves would have provided a degree of protection. I've noticed that ambulance crews and paramedics always wear gloves, but may be this police officer didn't if, he didn't think it was a suspicious incident or that there was a risk of bodily fluid contact.

I don't think any reliable information has been released as to where the agent was actually deployed; it seems that the media are speculating a fair bit. All we know is that traces of the agent were found in the restaurant and the pub, but whether that was transfer from the victims or one of those locations was the site of the attack doesn't seem clear.

If the car was the source of the agent, then the person most at risk would probably have been the Ashley Woods recovery driver, who picked the car up for having over-stayed it's ticket in the car park and towed it to their impound depot in Gillingham. It's unlikely he would have worn any protective clothing, I think, as at the time he towed the car away he had no idea it belonged to one of the victims at all.

Sallyann1234
19th Mar 2018, 16:11
Galloway has no more or less information than anyone else outside the centre of the enquiry, and his speculation is no more or less valid.

As to why the victim was 'got at' in the UK rather than in Russia, the answers are too obvious to rehearse here.

Lonewolf_50
19th Mar 2018, 17:13
If he is that much of a lunatic why are you talking any notice of what he is saying??? Because it fits a particular narrative. :cool:

Tankertrashnav
19th Mar 2018, 17:55
Last week the Kremlin was asking us why on earth Putin would authorise an attempted assassination on foreign soil just as he was coming up to the presidential election.

Today Putin has won with an increases share of the vote (surprise, surprise) and they are telling us that the increased vote can be ascribed to large numbers of Russian people coming round in support of their president in reaction to nasty Western lies being told about him.

Seems to me they cant have it both ways.

DaveReidUK
19th Mar 2018, 18:18
Last week the Kremlin was asking us why on earth Putin would authorise an attempted assassination on foreign soil just as he was coming up to the presidential election.

Today Putin has won with an increases share of the vote (surprise, surprise) and they are telling us that the increased vote can be ascribed to large numbers of Russian people coming round in support of their president in reaction to nasty Western lies being told about him.

Seems to me they cant have it both ways.

I'd have thought both positions were perfectly consistent with each other.

It would be more appropriate to say that they can't have it either way.

Except that they obviously can, in today's Russia ...

KelvinD
19th Mar 2018, 18:46
VP959: While I am no expert on the way police work, the search of Skripal's house puzzles me. I know that under certain circumstances such as theft or drug possession will lead police to automatically search the premises of a suspect, once arrested. What puzzles me is why a single officer was sent to check out or search the home, particularly when the Wiltshire Police were stating that they did not know, at that time, if a crime had been committed.

chopper2004
19th Mar 2018, 19:09
Somone is pulling on strings here and she turned up for venue in chauffeur driven Merc and insisting on drinking from her own water bottle

Alleged Russian spy expelled from UK posed as a glamorous harpist | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5517927/Alleged-Russian-spy-expelled-UK-posed-glamorous-harpist.html)


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/19/10/4A5750A200000578-0-Harpist_Nina_Mishchenko_30_is_reportedly_one_of_the_attach_s _wit-m-6_1521456925587.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/19/10/4A57514000000578-0-image-a-2_1521456557843.jpg

cheers

VP959
19th Mar 2018, 19:12
VP959: While I am no expert on the way police work, the search of Skripal's house puzzles me. I know that under certain circumstances such as theft or drug possession will lead police to automatically search the premises of a suspect, once arrested. What puzzles me is why a single officer was sent to check out or search the home, particularly when the Wiltshire Police were stating that they did not know, at that time, if a crime had been committed.

I know as much as you about this. I can speculate that the local police may have had his name and address recorded as some part of his exchange agreement, perhaps at the request of the security services. Perhaps one of the police officers on here can say whether or not that's likely.

We don't know for sure where the police officer was contaminated with this agent, or how. It has a pretty long time between exposure and onset of symptoms, apparently, and that almost certainly varies a great deal with the type of exposure and the concentration, which makes any guess as to when and how the police officer became contaminated even harder.

Do the police routinely visit the address of someone who collapses in a public place? I honestly don't know, but perhaps they do if they suspect an offence may have been committed. It seems possible that the police might have initially thought they were dealing with some form of poisoning, or perhaps a deliberate drugs overdose, in which case I can understand a police officer needing to try and determine what may have been taken, and that might well involved entering the victims house to check. I do know that when a member of my family tried to take her own life the ambulance crew took great care to collect and bag every bottle of pills they could find in the house and take them with them.

racedo
19th Mar 2018, 20:17
. I do know that when a member of my family tried to take her own life the ambulance crew took great care to collect and bag every bottle of pills they could find in the house and take them with them.

I can understand that BUT that was in the house where they were carting person to hospital so not unrealistic to take every pill bottle etc that you can find. Not an unreasonable course of action.

Sending a single cop is strange because as has been said no evidence of anything.

Sure I can understand sending someone to knock on door to see if family member home but not entering................. there would be no reason to do so.

VP959
19th Mar 2018, 20:51
I can understand that BUT that was in the house where they were carting person to hospital so not unrealistic to take every pill bottle etc that you can find. Not an unreasonable course of action.

Sending a single cop is strange because as has been said no evidence of anything.

Sure I can understand sending someone to knock on door to see if family member home but not entering................. there would be no reason to do so.

How's this for a speculative scenario, assuming that they did send a single police officer to his house, which is by no means a known fact - it too seems to be speculation, AFAICS.

Assume for a moment that there is an initial assumption by the first responders that the two victims have taken an overdose of some drug, perhaps in an attempt to take their own lives (seems as reasonable to me as any other speculative assumption).

Assume that a search of their persons found no evidence of anything that they may have taken.

If the paramedics and police believe at that moment that a deliberate drug overdose, or poisoning, might be the cause, might a police officer rush from the scene to the victims house to try and find out what they may have taken?

It falls over a bit as we don't even know if the affected police officer did visit their house, or if he did get contaminated there, though. Is it possible he was contaminated at the scene? I understand that at least one of the victims was seen to vomit at the scene by an eye witness, is it possible that the police officer became contaminated from that?

The problem here is that it's all speculation, there are very few hard facts, so the whole exercise if pretty futile until more information about the early stages of this incident is released, in my view.

flash8
19th Mar 2018, 20:53
The problem here is that it's all speculation, there are very few hard facts, so the whole exercise if pretty futile until more information about the early stages of this incident is released, in my view.

Absolutely correct VP, and I for one appreciate your balanced observations.

KelvinD
19th Mar 2018, 23:02
flash8: During the 1990s I had a couple of projects in St Petersburg and 1 in Moscow. I had only 1 visit to Moscow but was made to feel very welcome.
I had multiple visits to St Petersburg though and got on very well with the customer's people. By coincidence, my customer contact in St Petersburg was a retired Colonel from the fire service and we got talking about the fire service. He remembered some years earlier a couple of visits from UK firemen who made a couple of goodwill visits, including 1 in which they brought a whole boat load of Nomex fire service suits as they had found on their first visit how inadequate their Russian counterparts' kit was. Well, well! The leader of that UK delegation was my younger brother so it was like old boys at home for a few days there! I really enjoyed my visits there.

WingNut60
20th Mar 2018, 01:53
I'm a long way from London so maybe I missed it, but has there been any recent updates on the status or prospects for any of the victims?
As brutal as the following seems, I know that with many of these compounds, and as with Litvinenko, the prognosis is catastrophic right from the start.

I guess what I'm asking is whether there has been any sign of recovery and whether that improvement, if any, is likely to be sustained?

Oh yeah ... and I've spent quite a bit of time in Russia too; west to east and quite a few places in between.
I have a photo somewhere of me in a tech college in Khabarovsk with Vlad and Medvedev glaring down on me from above the whiteboard.
In the words of Gordon Sumner, "the Russians love their children too".

VH-MLE
20th Mar 2018, 04:13
Also, how is the police officer doing?

WingNut60
20th Mar 2018, 04:43
Also, how is the police officer doing?

It was not oversight; I was specifically thinking of him (or her?) with "any of the victims".

When it's as quiet as it has been with this subject, I can't help but suspect that a gruesome outcome is thought to be inevitable.

VP959
20th Mar 2018, 08:29
Very little news is coming out about the victims, other than that the police officer is conscious and talking, and seems to be recovering, and that Sergei and Yulia Skripal are still critical, but stable. She has been reported as being in a slightly better condition than him, but he's 66 and so was probably more vulnerable, I'd guess.

In general, people exposed to nerve agents either die pretty quickly, or, if they survive, their recovery depends largely on how much internal damage they suffered, not from the agent directly in many cases, but from hypoxia during the time shortly after the attack when their breathing would have been severely impaired.

From what has been reported, Sergei and Yulia Skripal were on that bench, probably suffering from the effects of the agent, for some time before they received any medical attention. That may not bode well for thier recovery, especially as a passing doctor who treated Yulia Skripal at the scene, before the paramedics arrived, has said that she wasn't breathing and she had to clear her airway.

That's about all we know, apart from the fact that recovery from exposure to nerve agents of this general type can take many weeks or months, and can leave some permanent neural deficit.

grateful_pax
20th Mar 2018, 08:57
Before many criticize Russia (mostly from the Liberal Press narrative as how else would they have any knowledge) strongly recommend coming to Moscow where you can see for yourself.

Some of what i have read is so far from the truth it truly is shocking.

If you are ever in Moscow can even meet up for a beer.. that is if you aren't scared of bears roaming the streets.

May I put my fifty cents.
I am a russian national and I spent my childhood in Siberia.
I saw the whole country. Not only Moscow. I used to travel 9+ time zones in a train, several times. A week long trip trough endless forests... breathtaking views of baikal, etc.
I spoke to the people from various regions. I have relatives scattered from Kamchatka to Moscow. I could agree that it seems there's nothing bad in a rich, well-educated russian. As long as you don't touch his/hers imperial complex, he/she looks like a human being.

Skripal poisoning, video of Florida nuke strike, video of boeing's scramjet as example of "new russian weapon", blaming the victim of russian aggression in your own war crimes, etc... That's the current values in the heart of this russian "good men and women". Those few who disagree are either traitors or russophobs.

Flash8, until you as a nation won't admit and regret all your crimes as germans did after WW2, you're all bad guys.

KelvinD
20th Mar 2018, 08:58
Re the police officer visiting the Skripal's house, it was reported in the Telegraph on March 10th that he had visited the house. This from a quote from a "close relative" of DS Bailey. So, it may be true, rather than just another Galloway rant?
Also interesting is the report in the local press of Theresa May's visit to Salisbury where she spoke with the first paramedic on the scene who said, quite reasonably, that when they arrived on scene they assumed they were dealing with a case of drug use. The same article reports 2 uniformed police officers were the first of the police on scene and they confirmed they assumed it was a routine case of drug use, the kind of thing they see routinely. Yet neither of those police officers appear to have been affected, nor the paramedic. I can understand the paramedic escaping contamination due probably to their habit of using gloves. Maybe the uniformed police officers also wore gloves. But wouldn't a detective visiting a potential crime scene (the house) also wear gloves, in the normal routine of protecting possible forensic evidence?
The better news is that the detective, while still very ill, is at least sitting up and talking.

Stan Woolley
20th Mar 2018, 17:08
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2164202-exclusive-other-countries-could-have-made-russian-nerve-agent/

Requires subscription to read full article, but the damage is done in the first few sentences, which is visible.

flash8
20th Mar 2018, 17:20
Agreed Stan, best to keep an open mind.

Wouldn't be unheard of to find Russia had nothing to do with it.

Where will that leave the current Government? No way they can back down from such vociferous statements, they are completely unequivocal in nature.

Talk about digging a very large hole.

Effluent Man
20th Mar 2018, 17:40
I think that is the reason why those of us who have counselled caution have done so, not out of any great love for Russia or Putin, just for the very sound reason that the case is far from proven. As has been observed rowing back from the positions such as those already taken will be very tricky.

flash8
20th Mar 2018, 18:17
rowing back from the positions such as those already taken will be very tricky.

Many would argue impossible (I guess you are being diplomatic), and that is the worrying part, surely the rush to judgement should have been tempered with past experience... you know the ones where we effectively told lies.

I'd hazard a guess that given the unequivocal nature and the impossibility of rowing back we will be stuck with this narrative by the government even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (which seems to be slowly mounting).

More evidence of a post-truth world.

Lascaille
20th Mar 2018, 18:50
Many would argue impossible (I guess you are being diplomatic), and that is the worrying part, surely the rush to judgement should have been tempered with past experience... you know the ones where we effectively told lies.

I'd hazard a guess that given the unequivocal nature and the impossibility of rowing back we will be stuck with this narrative by the government even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (which seems to be slowly mounting).

More evidence of a post-truth world.

So nothing is 'rowed back'. Claims that were previously made are simply not repeated. They fade. In the long term what does it really mean? When pressured we point to Crimea, we point to the Buk. What are they going to do, after all, shoot down another airliner? Take over another province? Who cares! They've got form, shrug, too bad, sorry not sorry.

VP959
20th Mar 2018, 19:14
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2164202-exclusive-other-countries-could-have-made-russian-nerve-agent/

Requires subscription to read full article, but the damage is done in the first few sentences, which is visible.

I've read the full article, but sadly it doesn't tell us anything new about A234. I'd hoped it would, but then NS is really very light on detail on occasions; one of my former colleagues calls it a "science comic", which it probably was when the Grimbledon Down cartoons were running (which were a thinly disguised running joke about Porton Down, one reason we all read it for a laugh).

Whilst I agree that we need to keep an open mind until we are presented with compelling evidence that makes the origin of the perpetrators beyond doubt, it's very hard to look at this as being anything other than an attack that originated from Russia (maybe not the state, but someone with a lot of authority), simply because it's very hard to see a motive from any other state, including a possible "false flag" operation.

I've just had a letter from my MP, and in it he's pushing hard to get everyone in his constituency to help recover the damage this has caused to many businesses in Salisbury. Added to that is the massive cost of the investigation and decontamination, which looks like it will run into many millions over the next few months, plus the damage to the tourist industry here. Salisbury is a small city, with a population of around 40,000 and very much relies on the tens of thousands of tourists that come here every year, from those coming to see one of the oldest cities in the UK to those just coming to see the cathedral with the tallest spire in the country.

Apart from the injuries to Sergei and Yulia Skripal, and Sgt Nick Bailey, the city has had a massive financial hit, and had it's reputation as a safe place to visit seriously damaged, all to make a very public point about the attempted murder of two former Russian citizens.

Maybe the Russian government didn't sanction this, maybe someone else with enough clout did, but although it's theoretically possible for a handful of labs in the world to have had a go at synthesising A234, they would have needed to test it, develop delivery methods, test those delivery methods, come up with a covert way to transport the stuff safely - all expertise that was already available from one Russian lab.

If there was no Russian involvement in this at all, at any level, who else had a credible motive and access to the means to carry it out? I'd happily consider any reasonable and realistic theory that fits the known facts, if anyone cares to put one forward.

flash8
20th Mar 2018, 19:50
If there was no Russian involvement in this at all, at any level, who else had a credible motive

VP, you have to ask, what credible motive did Russia have? They themselves freely admit that it looks bad and therefore they would have been fools to even attempt such an act, they even state openly it would be plain stupidity (not the response you'd expect if they were truly responsible).

None of the Russians here had even heard of Skripal and couldn't care less what happened to him, coupled with the fact there are far more attractive targets that would indeed bolster patriotism and dissuade others.

There are a few assumptions here also:

Whoever engineered the attack was sophisticated and would have been fully aware of Porton Down, the target may have been chosen due to sheer proximity and the seeds of discord it would throw.

The "leaks" on the delivery mechanism used change daily, but I would not be surprised if eventually they settled on it being carried by the daughter. This is extremely convenient for the narrative even if it does sound unlikely. I would be *extremely* surprised if any other theory emerged as this one basically can't easily be refuted and means no suspects beyond the generic bogeyman.

The zero facts released beyond "it was Russia", the secrecy that seemed to shroud the episode from the beginning doesn't help. Now some of this may have been necessary, but when the Police state it could "take months or more" to establish facts, how does the government take mere days?

The Litvinenko case stunk, much of the "evidence" has never been released and the public inquiry blocked by the government. So some precedence in the lack of real evidence department. This time around expect the same... that is everything behind closed doors.

I am not saying it wasn't Russia, but the narrative spun to date simply doesn't stand up. If the government was far more restrained, instead as a former UK ambassador to Russia says "shooting their mouths off" I'd be a lot more convinced ironically.

G-CPTN
20th Mar 2018, 19:56
Assuming that Yulia carried the A234 from Russia, what likely container would 'contain' the medium until it was time to spread it?

Why wasn't Yulia affected ahead of Sergei?

VP959
20th Mar 2018, 20:02
VP, you have to ask, what credible motive did Russia have? They themselves freely admit that it looks bad and therefore they would have been fools to even attempt such an act, they even state openly it would be plain stupidity (not the response you'd expect if they were truly responsible).

None of the Russians here had even heard of Skripal and couldn't care less what happened to him, coupled with the fact there are far more attractive targets that would indeed bolster patriotism and dissuade others.

There are a few assumptions here also:

Whoever engineered the attack was sophisticated and would have been fully aware of Porton Down, the target may have been chosen due to sheer proximity and the seeds of discord it would throw.

The "leaks" on the delivery mechanism used change daily, but I would not be surprised if eventually they settled on it being carried by the daughter. This is extremely convenient for the narrative even if it does sound unlikely. I would be *extremely* surprised if any other theory emerged as this one basically can't easily be refuted and means no suspects beyond the generic bogeyman.

The zero facts released beyond "it was Russia", the secrecy that seemed to shroud the episode from the beginning doesn't help. Now some of this may have been necessary, but when the Police state it could "take months or more" to establish facts, how does the government take mere days?

The Litvinenko case stunk, much of the "evidence" has never been released and the public inquiry blocked by the government. So some precedence in the lack of real evidence department. This time around expect the same... that is everything behind closed doors.

I am not saying it wasn't Russia, but the narrative spun to date simply doesn't stand up. If the government was far more restrained, instead as a former UK ambassador to Russia says "shooting their mouths off" I'd be a lot more convinced ironically.

Just to be clear, I didn't state that it was Russia, I just believe that the overwhelming body of circumstantial evidence points to Russian involvement, perhaps not directly by the state, but by individual who still bore a grudge against Skripal, and who had access to state facilities, albeit covertly. Skripal betrayed a few of his former colleagues, some of whom may well be in a position to seek revenge. Legally thay can do this with the protection, in not the overt support, of the Russian state.

I would imagine that some of those who were betrayed y Skripal have long memories. We've seen much the same here with revenge killings for a host of reasons, from those dating back to the Troubles in NI to the ongoing ptoblem of "honour killings in some communities.

Dutystude
20th Mar 2018, 20:48
Much is made (quite legitimately) by some posters on what possible motive Russia could have in attempting to murder Skripal using a military grade nerve agent in a sleepy English Cathedral city.

I wonder what possible motive the Government could have in recklessly (or falsely) accusing Putin of complicity in the attempt.

Not to mention what motive Keir Starmer, John McDonnell, the EU et al might have in doing the same.

flash8
20th Mar 2018, 21:23
I wonder what possible motive the Government could have in recklessly (or falsely) accusing Putin of complicity in the attempt.

Not to mention what motive Keir Starmer, John McDonnell, the EU et al might have in doing the same.


Well certainly this could not have come at a "better" (in need of a more appropriate word) time for the Government, hence the complete and maniacal overdrive on rhetoric, pushing brexit off the immediate agenda and attempting to smear opponents.

As a Deputy Programme Manager on a non-UK Government Bioweapons Proliferation Prevention Programme for the CIS countries I was once approached by a UK Military attaché in a Moscow bar (the most dubious expat bar in Moscow as well, the old Boarhouse)... well aware that even contact with him would put me firmly on the radar I politely declined a further meeting.

Can say however that my dealings with the Russians were totally professional when I worked in the area, and they were *paranoid* about security. During a "demonstration" of their Pathogen Asset Control Software they covered 80% of the screen with cardboard ))) Pointless demonstration!

atakacs
20th Mar 2018, 22:22
If there was no Russian involvement in this at all, at any level, who else had a credible motive and access to the means to carry it out? I'd happily consider any reasonable and realistic theory that fits the known facts, if anyone cares to put one forward.

How about this one: we know that Israel has a chemical weapon program (due to some embarrassing disclosure via the Reagan library (https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/09/10/exclusive-does-israel-have-chemical-weapons-too/)), has never ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention and is not part of the OPCW, is currently very nervous with the Russian involvement in Syria and has absolutely no qualm about killing anyone anywhere (to the point of being proud of it and promoting assassins to PM...).

Let's be absolutely clear: I have no information whatsoever pointing in that direction but I would see the above scenario more likely than the direct Russian hit we are being sold on - although my money would still be on someone close to Russia who was impacted by Skripal's treason.

Again, I don't know what happened, but I am very worried about the absolute lack to tolerance to any dissenting voice.

fitliker
20th Mar 2018, 23:07
Has the poisoned policeman spoke yet ?


It will interesting to hear how he was exposed and if he was exposed to the same chemical or the same dilution if it was a binary type chemical weapon.


We have to accept that we will probably never be told the truth.

racedo
20th Mar 2018, 23:23
I wonder what possible motive the Government could have in recklessly (or falsely) accusing Putin of complicity in the attempt.
.

It suits the Political agenda of a number of state players......................... not necessarily always the Governments of these countys but some of their "agencies" acting in concert.

One only has to look at arrest today of Sarkozy on charges of of receiving $50 million from Libya for his election campaign and amazingly France was one of the key players in Libya within days of Gadaffi stating this.
France and UK grabbed billions in Libyan assets and nobody knows what has happened to them. Different motive to the "Saving Libyan people" crap that was parroted which neither country interested in now and Libyan people worse off.

I don't trust Western Governments because they continue to conveniently lie.

Cameron would have been bombing Syria to support IS/AQ if HOC had said yes.

racedo
20th Mar 2018, 23:24
Has the poisoned policeman spoke yet ?

It will interesting to hear how he was exposed and if he was exposed to the same chemical or the same dilution if it was a binary type chemical weapon.

We have to accept that we will probably never be told the truth.

My worry is he could be a convenient "Victim" to suit an agenda.

currawong
21st Mar 2018, 05:05
Or he may have used the same door handle used to poison the other two victims.

Krystal n chips
21st Mar 2018, 05:49
Look at the circumstantial evidence we have:

1. The target was a Russian, considered to be a traitor by Russia.

2. Russian law allows the extrajudicial assassination of enemies of the state anywhere in the world.

3. The agent used is uniquely Russian in origin, and has never, AFAIK, been manufactured or tested outside Russia.

4. There is a track record of Russian dissidents, traitors or enemies of the Russian state being murdered outside Russia.

5. We are pretty certain that Alexander Litvinenko was murdered by a man who is now a member of the Russian Duma, and who was effectively promoted into a parliamentary role partly in order to give him greater immunity. He has publicly stated "If someone has caused the Russian state serious damage, they should be exterminated". For this to happen the President must have had some involvement.

6. The Russian President publicly said, two days ago, that "Russia has no borders", implying that it could act anywhere in the world.

7. The Russian President has previously openly lied, on several occasions. Take, for example, the annexation of Crimea. He denounced the reports by journalists saying they had seen Russian troops in Crimea, saying that anyone could be wearing Russian uniforms as a deception. Once Crimea was annexed he openly praised the Russian troops that had taken action there.

It's true that none of the above is a true "smoking gun", but it's pretty compelling circumstantial evidence, never the less.

The alternative is to flip this question around, and try to determine which other state would have had the motive, and means, to carry out this attack. The idea that it's a "false flag" operation falls over because there is nothing to be gained by the two states that might possibly have the capability to undertake such an attack, the UK and the US. This will harm both the UK and US, without a doubt, and that's without considering the stupidity of using a bloody dangerous nerve agent in a public area, when anyone could have been affected by it, not just the target(s).

Could it be a terrorist incident? Well, if so, then why have none of the usual suspects come forward to claim credit for it? I also doubt that any of the radical groups have even 1% of the technical capability and access to facilities to prepare this agent into a deliverable system.

Who does that leave as possible perpetrators?

In my view, no one. It has to be either the Russian State, or someone within Russia with access to facilities that the state should have known about.

"Just to be clear, I didn't state that it was Russia, I just believe that the overwhelming body of circumstantial evidence points to Russian involvement, perhaps not directly by the state"

The last line of the quote suggests otherwise.

EM

" I think that is the reason why those of us who have counselled caution have done so, not out of any great love for Russia or Putin, just for the very sound reason that the case is far from proven. As has been observed rowing back from the positions such as those already taken will be very tricky"

Had it not been for the fact this event has now attracted international attention, the current Gov't have proved to be very adept when it comes to "U" turns.

sfm818
21st Mar 2018, 07:42
Meanwhile, the FCO has released this:

https://youtu.be/BGDi8y-yfq8

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 07:47
I think a fair interpretation is that VP suspects the origin may be Russia.

It may well be the position HMG takes as it is suitably vague and gives them wiggle room from their current embarrassingly unequivocal statements.

However as many have stated others have the capability and perhaps more of a motive.

One thing for sure is that both the Foreign and Defence secretaries look well out of their depth and that can't have gone unnoticed by adversaries.

sfm818
21st Mar 2018, 08:01
Five minutes to respond - you'll have to do better than that.

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 08:03
FCO must be worried if they are desperate enough to produce a YouTube video.

It isn't exactly inspiring though and suspect will sink without trace.

sfm818
21st Mar 2018, 08:11
Two minutes - you've improved, although nothing about this episode is "Inspiring."

VP959
21st Mar 2018, 08:20
I think a fair interpretation is that VP suspects the origin may be Russia.

It may well be the position HMG takes as it is suitably vague and gives them wiggle room from their current embarrassingly unequivocal statements.

However as many have stated others have the capability and perhaps more of a motive.

One thing for sure is that both the Foreign and Defence secretaries look well out of their depth and that can't have gone unnoticed by adversaries.

Where's the list of other states that have a motive for seeking to murder a Russian traitor?

As already stated, there are perhaps a handful of facilities, probably less, in the world that have the combined knowledge and facilities to manufacture, test, dispense, design a safe transport and delivery system, test and refine that, and then covertly enter the UK and commit this attack.

This is not "garage chemistry", plus the really, really hard part is transferring the agent to some sort of delivery system and testing to make sure that delivery system works, is effective, and doesn't endanger the person using it. There's no way that the assassin could have got away with wearing some form of adequate personal protective equipment when dispensing the agent as the final part of the attack, which implies that there was some pretty clever way of carrying out the final stage, that didn't put the attacker at risk.

Weaponising chemical agents is one of the very hardest things to do, and one reason why they are generally far less effective than their toxicity would suggest. A good example are the Sarin attacks in Syria. From a weapons effectiveness perspective these were exceedingly poor. They used between about 490kg and 740 kg of agent delivered by rockets into an urban area. Casualty estimates vary, but the lowest figure is around 300 dead, the highest about 1800 dead.

It takes about 35mg or Sarin per m³ of air to kill someone, so a lethal does of Sarin vapour is just a few mg. Let's be really pessimistic and say someone has to breathe in a whole m³ of air at this concentration to die, which is way OTT.

Taking the lowest estimated delivery mass of 490kg, that's roughly equivalent to enough agent to kill 14 million people, yet, using the worst case estimate, less than 1800 people died. If I were a weapon designer, or an assassin looking for an effective weapon, I would not be happy with a probability of kill of only around 1 in 7800, I'd want it to be a heck of a lot better than that.

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 08:27
I am not criticizing you VP as you as always are fairly balanced and in fact have a question for you now you have raised the point.

How realistic is it in your opinion this could have been transported unwittingly by the daughter and activated?

A genuine question as if this isn't the case then operatives must have been/are in the UK and potentially traceable which would be some real evidence one way or another.

If it is it seems rather too convenient.

VP959
21st Mar 2018, 08:53
I am not criticizing you VP as you as always are fairly balanced and in fact have a question for you now you have raised the point.

How realistic is it in your opinion this could have been transported unwittingly by the daughter and activated?

A genuine question as if this isn't the case then operatives must have been/are in the UK and potentially traceable which would be some real evidence one way or another.

If it is it seems rather too convenient.

It's possible she could have carried it, but it would require a pretty high degree of knowledge, plus access to some sophisticated facilities to both design, and test, the container and delivery system, bearing in mind that the agent is highly toxic and you only want to deliver the required dose when you can be fairly confident that there is a high probability of kill. If she flew back to the UK, then the perpetrators must have had a way to ensure it would not be detected, and allow her through the normal security checks. That itself is a pretty tough thing to achieve, IMHO.

On top of that you have to make sure that the outside of the container is completely decontaminated and that there is a very low risk of any of the internal seals failing during transport, or before the planned delivery point. You also have to ensure that the trigger mechanism is going to operate reliably, at exactly the right point where it will deliver the payload to the victims, with minimal risk to others.

The ongoing problem with all chemical weapons, right from the very first time they were deployed just over 100 years ago, is delivering them effectively. Designing, refining, and testing a delivery system would have taken time and specialised facilities, as there is only so much you can do using a safe analogue for the agent. Ultimately you have no choice but to test the delivery system with live agent, more so for an assassination weapon than for a general weapon of terror, as might be used by a terrorist organisation.

This doesn't look to me like a terrorist attack, as it was very closely targeted and the perpetrators went to significant trouble to minimise collateral damage, or harm to themselves.

It has all the hallmarks of a highly professional attack, made by someone, or some group, with access to some highly sophisticated facilities and knowledge. The fact that the attack was only partially successful, in that it didn't kill the targets outright, yet didn't expose large numbers of innocent people to the agent, is an indicator as to just how damned hard it is to makes weapons of this type, IMHO.

Andy_S
21st Mar 2018, 08:55
Or he may have used the same door handle used to poison the other two victims.

Don't be silly. That's far too sensible and plausible a suggestion to have any credibility......

Stan Woolley
21st Mar 2018, 08:56
They used between about 490kg and 740 kg of agent delivered by rockets into an urban area.

Who are ‘they’?

VP959
21st Mar 2018, 09:08
Who are ‘they’?


The general consensus was that it was most probably the Syrian Government, but the reality is that there is no absolutely conclusive proof that it was them. All that is known for sure is that between 8 and 10 rockets were fired into the area in the first attack, each with a payload of around 54kg to 65kg of Sarin. The agent was positively confirmed as Sarin, and parts of the rockets were recovered which established both the agent used and the volume each contained.


The primary reason for concluding that all of these attacks were likely to have been made by the Syrian government was the sheer volume of agent used, hundreds of kg of Sarin, plus the fact that some of the rockets used were Russian made surface to surface rockets that only the Syrian government were known to have. The rebel forces would have needed access to industrial scale chemical weapons manufacturing and handling facilities to obtain that sort of quantity, whilst it was known that the Syrian government probably had access to such facilities.

I doubt we'll know for sure whether this was an attack carried out by the Syrian government, or whether it was some sort of false flag operation by one of the rebel groups. The latter seems very unlikely, based on all the evidence that was collected, but as with many things that happen in the heat of war, it's damned hard to be absolutely certain as to who did what.

Stan Woolley
21st Mar 2018, 09:35
I doubt we'll know for sure whether this was an attack carried out by the Syrian government, or whether it was some sort of false flag operation by one of the rebel groups. The latter seems unlikely, based on all the evidence that was collected, but as with many things that happen in the heat of war, it's damned hard to be certain as to who did what.

I agree with your final sentence.

The Syrian conflict is a bucket of worms. The thing is that I’m just not inclined to believe the mainstream media, so when they tell me - as one - that Assad has carried out another dastardly deed, I automatically take a step back. From my perspective it appears that the war in Syria could have been ended months ago. Trump’s election victory promised hope that would be the case. Hillary’s aggressive Anti- Russian, pro Israel stance had me praying for a Trump victory despite me (I’ll use the word despising, but I don’t really) the man.

It seems to me that Russia and the SAA could have mopped up any isolated groups of Isis fighters were it not for the duplicitous introduction of ‘rebels’ funded by who knows who. Actually I have think I have a good idea!

My guess is that you are probably too left brained to think that there may be something to the idea of Karma, but looking at the state the West finds itself in at the moment, I wouldn’t be so sure.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-has-no-evidence-of-syrian-use-of-sarin-gas-mattis-says

VP959
21st Mar 2018, 10:10
We're getting of topic a fair bit, but the West only really got involved in Syria as a consequence of the Sarin attacks, and that seems to be the main motive for suggesting that it was some sort of tactic by someone other than the Syrian government to drag the West (primarily the US) into the conflict.

Looking at the wider view, the US had been reluctant to get involved in yet another conflict in that general part of the world, so it seems pretty unlikely they would have provided assistance to a rebel group in order to carry out these attacks.

Syria was not at the time a signatory to the CWC, so could produce Sarin if it wished without fear of international condemnation, at least in an international legal sense.

For many of the reasons associated with the challenges of undertaking the Skripal attack, it seems extremely improbable that a rebel group would have unassisted access to the expertise and facilities needed.

Like all events in recent years, it seems that none of the media can be trusted to tell the whole story, or even tell the truth, or part of it. Much of modern reporting seems to be based on "evidence" from social media, which is itself pretty dubious at best, and downright misleading most of the time.

With Syria then I think it's very hard to make any firm judgement as to who is telling the truth. The government there have repeatedly lied, as have the rebel groups.

Getting back on topic, I think it would be pretty damned hard to make up a convincing conspiracy theory that would stick for the Skripal attack. Although Porton is a secure and secret establishment, the people that work there are normal human beings, many of whom live in and around Salisbury, and who have consciences just like anyone else. What's more, most are scientists, so naturally sceptical of any theory unless they have seen the proof.

At the time of the infamous Blair "dodgy dossier", there was open outrage expressed by people I knew who knew beyond doubt that the thing was a pile of crap, yet were forbidden from talking to the media about it. Such is the change now, with the more widespread use of social media, that I'm reasonably sure that any conspiracy theory, or even misleading element of an official line, would be exposed pretty quickly. It's dead easy to leak information via the dark web to Wikileaks, completely anonymously.

I think all we can do it look at the information that we can obtain, weigh up it's credibility, assess how probable any scenario that's postulated using that evidence may be, and form our own opinion as to where the truth lies.

FWIW, right now my personal opinion is that the Skripal attack was not ordered or directly sanctioned by Putin. I'm pretty much convinced it was instigated by a person, or small group, who had a good personal reason for wanting to see him killed in a public and spectacular way. Who that person, or group, was, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet on it I'd say it was one or two of his former KGB/GRU colleagues who still have a very good reason to bear him a grudge, and are now in positions where they can act on that grudge. It smacks of a plan that has been thought about for years, probably since the time of his trial, with every detail being worked out carefully in advance.

Fitter2
21st Mar 2018, 11:23
It would have to be someone who had access to tightly controlled, short shelf life stuff, and someone traceably responsible would have to account for its issue. I doubt it was a rogue operation.

It then comes down to the two rules of responsibility. If you authorised it, you are responsible. If it was done by someone under your authority, even if you didn't know, you are still responsible. If it was done by a Russian agent, Putin is responsible.

ORAC
21st Mar 2018, 13:51
I think it is hilarious the time and effort the Moscow trolls and fellow travellers are spending even on sites like this to deny an obfuscate the Kremlin connection.

No avenue or conspiracy explanation is a stretch too far. My particular congratulations for dragging in Israel as a suspect. Brilliant!!!

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 14:27
i think it is hilarious the time and effort the moscow trolls and fellow travellers are spending even on sites like this to deny an obfuscate the kremlin connection.


правда товарищ* :ok:

*true comrade!

Stan Woolley
21st Mar 2018, 14:48
No avenue or conspiracy explanation is a stretch too far. My particular congratulations for dragging in Israel as a suspect. Brilliant!!!

Poor innocent little Israel. :rolleyes:

galaxy flyer
21st Mar 2018, 15:34
WTF? What motive?

GF

DroneDog
21st Mar 2018, 15:37
I think it is hilarious the time and effort the Moscow trolls and fellow travellers are spending even on sites like this to deny an obfuscate the Kremlin connection.

No avenue or conspiracy explanation is a stretch too far. My particular congratulations for dragging in Israel as a suspect. Brilliant!!!

Dronedog logging on to PPrune

Stan Woolley
21st Mar 2018, 17:18
Craig Murray is annoying somebody. Via twitter:


“DOS attack on our blog. Over 50,000 separate IP addresses used simultaneously generating millions of hits. A state level attack. Will publish cloudfare evidence once we can get back up.”

Soon followed by:

“Fortunately my tech experts are from Dundee so they have no chance.”

stagger
21st Mar 2018, 19:56
Craig Murray is annoying somebody. Via twitter:


“DOS attack on our blog. Over 50,000 separate IP addresses used simultaneously generating millions of hits. A state level attack. Will publish cloudfare evidence once we can get back up.”

Soon followed by:

“Fortunately my tech experts are from Dundee so they have no chance.”

Well one thing we can be sure of - it can't be the Russian's doing this. According to Craig Murray it's never the Russians.

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 21:41
Now this is very interesting.

30 Questions.

https://russia-insider.com/en/30-questions-journalists-should-be-asking-about-skripal-case/ri22851

If they were answered I'd feel a lot more reassured.

DaveReidUK
21st Mar 2018, 21:57
If they were answered I'd feel a lot more reassured.

Wouldn't whether you'd feel reassured or not depend on what the answers were ? :O

flash8
21st Mar 2018, 22:03
Wouldn't whether you'd feel reassured or not depend on what the answers were ?

Dave, I'd not be that bothered so much but Boris is now comparing Putin to Hitler, and the World Cup to 1936... it would be much more reassuring if he actually could release something to back it up. You can only prod a bear so many times before it reacts, if they genuinely didn't do it I'd imagine they would be extremely pissed off and might exacerbate the situation... perhaps that is what Mr Johnson wishes.. who really knows.

Most people I have spoken to today (Russian) cannot believe the stream of foul insults coming out of his mouth, it's like a sewer.

Whatever you think about anything, the guy is a danger to us all.

Lantern10
21st Mar 2018, 23:05
Don't be silly. That's far too sensible and plausible a suggestion to have any credibility......

They were found on a park bench. I don't see how both the pair and a policeman could have possibly used "the same door handle"

Fitter2
21st Mar 2018, 23:06
The trolls are stepping up their activity. Is someone worried?

currawong
22nd Mar 2018, 04:25
I would dearly like all the rhetoric to be a front.

While both major players are working in unison behind the scenes to establish who is responsible.

But alas...

Krystal n chips
22nd Mar 2018, 07:15
Dave, I'd not be that bothered so much but Boris is now comparing Putin to Hitler, and the World Cup to 1936... it would be much more reassuring if he actually could release something to back it up. You can only prod a bear so many times before it reacts, if they genuinely didn't do it I'd imagine they would be extremely pissed off and might exacerbate the situation... perhaps that is what Mr Johnson wishes.. who really knows.

Most people I have spoken to today (Russian) cannot believe the stream of foul insults coming out of his mouth, it's like a sewer.

Whatever you think about anything, the guy is a danger to us all.

With all due respect to yourself here, and this is not being disparaging in any way, we know all about Boris here in the UK.

When it comes to utterances, he has a long established record of, as they say in Belfast "talking when you should have been thinking ", the objective being the self promotion of Boris and his political aspirations to be PM.

Next Monday, C4 have a special programme dedicated to this event.

Unfortunately, I will miss it when it's first broadcast, there being life outside JB some may be astounded to learn, but, I'm sure a summary of the contents will duly emerge on here.

ORAC
22nd Mar 2018, 08:41
If Biris has got Russia and Putin upset rather than mocking he must be doing something right.

And if Russia and Putin feel the comparison to Hitler is insulting perhaps they should look in a mirror. Mind you even back in the late 1930s and early 1940s they were quite happy to do deals with him on invading on invading bordering countries and dividing up the spoils whilst both their leaders assassinated their opponents.

Things only went sour when one turned on the other......

IcePack
22nd Mar 2018, 09:03
Wasn’t it a labour MP that said about the World Cup & Hitler. Boris was merely agreeing with him/her.

Krystal n chips
22nd Mar 2018, 09:06
If Biris has got Russia and Putin upset rather than mocking he must be doing something right.

And if Russia and Putin feel the comparison to Hitler is insulting perhaps they should look in a mirror. Mind you even back in the late 1930s and early 1940s they were quite happy to do deals with him on invading on invading bordering countries and dividing up the spoils whilst both their leaders assassinated their opponents.

Things only went sour when one turned on the other......

ORAC,

As analogies go, this was atrocious.

And yes it was a Labour MP who thoughtlessly introduced this into the conversation. Had Boris actually had any acumen, he would have negated this comment there and then, instead of which, he chose to expand on it.

26m Russian war dead are not going to be forgotten in a hurry. Riling political opponents is hardly unique, but, when you decide to invoke deeply enshrined memories of Russian history as some form of jibe, then it's no wonder the Russians will react accordingly.

Boris has never been anything other than a self promotional entity, more than most politicians in fact, and neither has he ever shown any diplomatic skills.....invariably the reverse.

ORAC
22nd Mar 2018, 10:17
KnC,

I, on the other hand, would consider the past, current and ongoing behaviour of Pution and the Kremlin as atrocious, and the comparison both timely and accurate.

In view of the scorn, disregard and contempt for the other actions of the British government; if such comparisons hurt so much, I would make them part of all UK governmental speeches and policies dealing with Putin and his kleptocracy.

Krystal n chips
22nd Mar 2018, 11:09
KnC,

I, on the other hand, would consider the past, current and ongoing behaviour of Pution and the Kremlin as atrocious, and the comparison both timely and accurate.

In view of the scorn, disregard and contempt for the other actions of the British government; if such comparisons hurt so much, I would make them part of all UK governmental speeches and policies dealing with Putin and his kleptocracy.

ORAC,

Russia has a long, complex and proud history of which Putin is well aware.

Whilst few in the West will condone his actions the current UK Gov't, acting apparently on circumstantial evidence alone, at least with regard as to what is in the public domain, has managed to heap scorn on itself ( see "go away and shut up " for example ) without any assistance from Putin.

If ever there was a time and need for career and professional diplomats to become prominent, to tacitly intervene, then it's now.

Boris is neither and his sanctioning of the equally crass remark from the Labour MP isn't going to help dissipate the tensions now developing, only to exacerbate them.

ORAC
22nd Mar 2018, 13:17
Might I suggest that, both at the EU and UN, this is a period precisely when the UK government is seeking to escalate the situation to the level it deserves?

The only ones interested in trivialising the situation and sweeping it under the carpet are the Kremlin and it’s allies and friends.

Barksdale Boy
22nd Mar 2018, 13:36
With respect to totalitarian regimes using major sporting events for egregious self-promotion, a comparison between Berlin 1936 and Moscow 2018 seems entirely apposite.

Fitter2
22nd Mar 2018, 13:41
Presumably the Russian diplomatic language 'insane', 'boorish', 'pathetic' is far preferable to the UK politicians' language used.

DaveReidUK
22nd Mar 2018, 13:59
With respect to totalitarian regimes using major sporting events for egregious self-promotion, a comparison between Berlin 1936 and Moscow 2018 seems entirely apposite.

Yes, the Russian umbrage seems a bit manufactured.

Comparing Putin to a Fascist dictator does not equate to insulting the Russian people.

ericsson16
22nd Mar 2018, 14:19
RIBBENTROP AND MOLOTOV MEETING OF NOVEMBER 12, 1940
At 2 p.m., Hitler received Molotov, Merkulov and Dekanozov for a dinner with Goebbels and Ribbentrop. The Russians were disappointed by Hitler’s austere menu that read simply: “Kraftbruhe, Fasan, Obstsalat”— beef tea, pheasant and fruit salad.

Fitter2
22nd Mar 2018, 15:12
RIBBENTROP AND MOLOTOV MEETING OF NOVEMBER 12, 1940
At 2 p.m., Hitler received Molotov, Merkulov and Dekanozov for a dinner with Goebbels and Ribbentrop. The Russians were disappointed by Hitler’s austere menu that read simply: “Kraftbruhe, Fasan, Obstsalat”— beef tea, pheasant and fruit salad.

Maybe they thought it was a coded guest list?

fitliker
22nd Mar 2018, 15:17
How long was the Pheasant hung for ?


Will we see Putin on a zip line promoting the Footie ?


Will he turn into a butterball with all the free lunches and free booze like the last politician to promote sport from a zipline ?

galaxy flyer
22nd Mar 2018, 15:26
KnC,

Russia has a long, complex and proud history

Long and complex, yes. Considering it’s never-ending desire for expansion, notable diplomatic insecurity, complete disregard for its populace and the maniacs that ran the place for their own greed over centuries, proud is not a word I’d use. Even the US in its full manifest destiny mode didn’t kill people like both the czars and the communists did.

GF

flash8
22nd Mar 2018, 15:39
KnC

With all due respect to yourself here, and this is not being disparaging in any way, we know all about Boris here in the UK.

Well I am British and do read most of the UK news (although rarely watch it) and to me the guy is making things worse, and it is if he delights in it, that's what gets me. Where are people of the likes of Lord Carrington, Robin Cook.

Gentleman that put their country before their own careers.

flash8
22nd Mar 2018, 15:49
GF

Long and complex, yes. Considering it’s never-ending desire for expansion, notable diplomatic insecurity, complete disregard for its populace and the maniacs that ran the place for their own greed over centuries, proud is not a word I’d use. Even the US in its full manifest destiny mode didn’t kill people like both the czars and the communists did.

Been here fifteen years full time and nearly twenty years most of the time, Moscow that is, and all I can say is that if you saw Russia back in 1998 you would realize it was heading for civil war and total collapse, the fact that Putin turned it around is something that most (but not all) Russians will be eternally grateful. Is it unsafe here? Moscow is safer than London in my opinion (easily), even the corrupt Police have been cleaned up hugely and bribes are mostly a thing of the past, so progress.

I am not a Putin apologist but he has done great good for the country, put it back on the map so to speak, and you are correct they are a Nationalist patriotic nation (like the US) so this is important.

Did he do this?

Well some people (not suggesting you) see Reds under every bed, and others swallow wholesale mass media news as truth, myself, like to think I have a perspective from both the UK and Russia's side.

Glad your president is keeping a balanced head.

Andy_S
22nd Mar 2018, 16:34
I am not a Putin apologist but he has done great good for the country, put it back on the map so to speak, and you are correct they are a Nationalist patriotic nation (like the US) so this is important.

Very, very debatable.

Undoubtedly he stabilised the country. Undoubtedly, in some respects, he’s modernised it. Undoubtedly he’s restored a degree of pride.

At the same he’s ended any credible claim for Russia to be a democracy. He’s neutered any meaningful independent news media. He’s failed to modernise the economy. He has pursued foreign adventures with subsequent tragic outcomes. And he has managed to increasingly isolate himself and his country from the West, earning the suspicion and distrust of other major world leaders in the process.

Sallyann1234
22nd Mar 2018, 16:58
The real issue with the World Cup is the corruption that led to it being awarded to Russia.

ORAC
22nd Mar 2018, 17:38
I am not a Putin apologist but he has done great good for the country And Mussolini got the trains to run on time.....

KelvinD
22nd Mar 2018, 18:11
And Mussolini got the trains to run on time.....
Oh no he didn't! The railway apparently got one train to run on time and that was the one that took him to Rome to take up power!
One thing in this thread I do not understand is the fervent anti-Russian attitude of some.
Someone mentioned democracy. Well, I don't know how democratic Russia is today but I do know I am not a citizen of Russia so what business is it of mine what sort of government they choose to accept/put up with?
Crimea gets repeated mentions. Crimea was part of the USSR until Kruschev gave it to Ukraine, which was also part of the USSR. When the democratically elected president was deposed in a coup, Russia obviously took this seriously and reclaimed their old territory of Crimea. (So much for democracy in Ukraine!).
Did anybody see the Russian ambassador's press conference today? I did and was impressed in at least some part with his performance. He quite rightly railed against the comparison with Hitler. And he has once again asked for evidence. John Sweeney thought he would get a sneaky one in and asked about the demise of various anti-Putin people in Russia. The ambassador replied that each of them had been investigated in a public process and people had been punished. He then asked about suspicious deaths of Russians in this country and pointed out that any inquiries in the UK have been either stalled by the government or had no transparency at all. See William Hague's application for public interest immunity certificates, blocking the Litvinenko inquest.
Regardless of which side you take, the question really needs to be answered: Why will the UK government not show the Russians even a shred of evidence.

Effluent Man
22nd Mar 2018, 18:15
Wasn’t it a labour MP that said about the World Cup & Hitler. Boris was merely agreeing with him/her.

It was indeed, I just made that very point to Mrs EM whilst watching the news. I couldn't believe it when Boris fell for it and launched into an attack. This is getting very serious. If Putin is half as bad as we are told we had better all be getting ourselves down to Walmington-on-Sea for our uniforms.

VP959
22nd Mar 2018, 18:21
Regardless of which side you take, the question really needs to be answered: Why will the UK government not show the Russians even a shred of evidence.

Why should they?

The OPCW are currently here in town taking samples and undertaking a detailed analysis. They are independent of the UK and Russia, and are the right people to investigate this independently and then announce their findings.

I think this may well be one of the first times the OPCW has been invited by a member state to carry out such an investigation, and as we were the member state that invited them I think that Russia should basically just shut up until their findings are released. The same goes for our own idiot politicians, but at least they have the faint excuse that they've seen the evidence from Porton Down, and presumably trust that.

If the OPCW reach the same conclusion as Porton Down, that the agent was Novichok A234, then it will be interesting to see if some choose to try and undermine the credibility of the OPCW as well.

On a brighter note, Sgt Nick Bailey has just been released from hospital here, although he is a long way from having fully recovered, if indeed that ever happens. According to the local paper here, he was one of the first responders to the scene at The Maltings. If that is true, then it seems he may well have been contaminated by the agent still on the victims clothing, or perhaps from exposure to bodily fluids, such as vomit.

Effluent Man
22nd Mar 2018, 19:25
[QUOTE=VP959;10093026]Why should they?

Quite simply because we are accusing them. It's a matter of disclosure of what evidence, if any, we have that they have done it. And let's not be having imbecilic accusations that those who take a more measured view are trolls, whatever they might be.

The golden thread that runs through the principle of justice is innocence until proven guilty. To date there has been no real evidence, just innuendo about what a beastly fellow Putin from a doo lally minister. I would have two words for Boris, ( well yes, those two as well) But mine are Darius Guppy.

Chronus
22nd Mar 2018, 19:58
If our leaders can speculate, then as far as I am concerned it must be open season for speculation. So I say it is not beyond the realms of imagination that our lot discovered Sergei was treble agent , if that is the right term for a spy who was spying for mother Russia, in the guise of a double agent, then our lot treated him to a bit of his own medicine. That might explain why our boys in white coats said Novocheck quicker that you can say mother.

RatherBeFlying
22nd Mar 2018, 20:03
There's at least two people whose UK citizenship was revoked by then Home Secretary May when they were conveniently abroad and unable to challenge the revocation. For some years before they had received considerable attention from the security services, but were carefully kept in the dark that once abroad their UK passports would be revoked. No charges were ever laid against these two.

Subsequently targeting information was relayed from UK intelligence to US drone operations whereupon they were assassinated.

Kindly explain the moral difference between May and Putin when it comes to assassinating exiles:confused:

Andy_S
22nd Mar 2018, 21:22
One thing in this thread I do not understand is the fervent anti-Russian attitude of some.

Not so much anti-Russian as anti-Russian regime.

Someone mentioned democracy. Well, I don't know how democratic Russia is today but I do know I am not a citizen of Russia so what business is it of mine what sort of government they choose to accept/put up with?

Fair comment. The problem is that the Russian regime won't stick to running Russia; they are determined to flex their muscles beyond their borders. And that does make it our business.

Effluent Man
22nd Mar 2018, 21:42
But has that not been the M.O. Of America since WW2? There seems to be a big dose of double standards here. I would say that anti Russian hysteria is currently sweeping our country. Let's just hope that Putin isn't as crazy as our government would have us believe.

treadigraph
22nd Mar 2018, 21:59
Russian spy poisoning: Policeman discharged after Salisbury attack - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43506232)

CloudHound
22nd Mar 2018, 22:00
If tensions between our two countries are so strained, why do I keep getting adverts from beautiful Russian women wanting to marry me?

treadigraph
22nd Mar 2018, 22:02
You too? I thought they just wanted to be my friends. I feel so betrayed...

G-CPTN
22nd Mar 2018, 22:04
A question for VP (or any other informed person):-

What does a nerve agent look like?
The samples that have been retained for examination by the inspectors - would they be 'scraped' from the victims' clothing? - are they liquid?

WingNut60
22nd Mar 2018, 22:10
Why would a detective sergeant be one of the first-responders?

Or is that just convenient but incorrect use of the term?

WingNut60
22nd Mar 2018, 22:15
The real issue with the World Cup is the corruption that led to it being awarded to Russia.

And the next after that. And the last several World Cups. And the Olympics. And the winter Olympics.

Not all down to the Russians though.

Stan Woolley
22nd Mar 2018, 22:30
EM

But has that not been the M.O. Of America since WW2? There seems to be a big dose of double standards here. I would say that anti Russian hysteria is currently sweeping our country. Let's just hope that Putin isn't as crazy as our government would have us believe.

I couldn’t agree more. In my opinion Putin’s level headedness has probably held things back from escalating - thus far. May has put a lot of faith in this turning out in her favour, I wouldn’t bet on it.

It may appear that the average man backs her, but I wouldn’t bet on that either.

racedo
22nd Mar 2018, 22:33
RIBBENTROP AND MOLOTOV MEETING OF NOVEMBER 12, 1940
At 2 p.m., Hitler received Molotov, Merkulov and Dekanozov for a dinner with Goebbels and Ribbentrop. The Russians were disappointed by Hitler’s austere menu that read simply: “Kraftbruhe, Fasan, Obstsalat”— beef tea, pheasant and fruit salad.


Yes how dare the USSR make a deal with Hitler after all UK never did.............. oh wait when Chamberlain had his piece of paper a year before.

racedo
22nd Mar 2018, 22:34
The real issue with the World Cup is the corruption that led to it being awarded to Russia.

V the Corruption that the FA was involved in trying to get it to England, just they didn't pay enough.

racedo
22nd Mar 2018, 22:38
Fair comment. The problem is that the Russian regime won't stick to running Russia; they are determined to flex their muscles beyond their borders. And that does make it our business.

So why again are and have UK forces been in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria and a host of other countrys.

Why are UK Govt not sticking to running UK ?

KelvinD
22nd Mar 2018, 23:14
G-CPTN: As far as I can tell there are no samples having been kept back. The samples are having to be obtained by taking blood from the victims and approval for that was given in court today.
Isn't it odd that the OPCW are talking about having results in 2 to 3 weeks?
Wiltshire police and NHS had no idea what they were looking for to begin with yet the government came up with their verdict within a day or two. The OPCW people have already been told about the Novichok, yet still expect a matter of weeks, rather than days for the outcome to be decided.
And no doubt Boris will be expecting a microscope examination of the samples to reveal the blood cells will have "Made in Russia" stamped throughout, like a stick of Blackpool rock.
Boris should stick to Wiff Waff!

Hussar 54
23rd Mar 2018, 00:02
The real issue with the World Cup is the corruption that led to it being awarded to Russia.


And that other place out in The Gulf, no doubt, offered up even more.

Then again, the UK missed out only because it didn't cough up enough, not because it didn't cough up anything....

Edited to add that it seems Racedo beat me to it while I was was out collecting Frau H from her Bridge Club,

flash8
23rd Mar 2018, 01:32
And no doubt Boris will be expecting a microscope examination of the samples to reveal the blood cells will have "Made in Russia" stamped throughout, like a stick of Blackpool rock.
Boris should stick to Wiff Waff!

Made me spew my coffee over my keyboard... hilarious!


I couldn’t agree more. In my opinion Putin’s level headedness has probably held things back from escalating - thus far. May has put a lot of faith in this turning out in her favour, I wouldn’t bet on it.

It may appear that the average man backs her, but I wouldn’t bet on that either.

Sound words indeed Stan.

ORAC
23rd Mar 2018, 06:59
What a marvellous little Russophile lovefest. meanwhile, back in the real world.....

EU recalls ambassador from Russia as leaders back May over Salisbury (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/theresa-may-struggling-win-eu-support-russia-europe)

Member states poised to expel diplomats as European Union leaders agree that Moscow is likely source of Salisbury attack

KelvinD
23rd Mar 2018, 07:31
Why is it that 19 days after the attack on the Skripals, St Theresa is still using the phrase "it is highly likely that Russia was involved"? 19 days on and still no movement toward something a little more like "we have proof that Russia did it".
This doesn't bode well for the future of citizens of the UK. Imagine being hauled before a court on some vague charge and the magistrate finding it "highly likely" you were guilty, showing you no evidence and dealing with you accordingly.
Won't happen? Well, what is considered justice in the international arena could surely be considered justice in the domestic arena.
Don't forget, the same Mrs May is currently trying to make it a criminal offence to insult MPs. I forget which Bill it is included in, possibly a security related one.

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 07:48
G-CPTN: As far as I can tell there are no samples having been kept back. The samples are having to be obtained by taking blood from the victims and approval for that was given in court today.
Isn't it odd that the OPCW are talking about having results in 2 to 3 weeks?
Wiltshire police and NHS had no idea what they were looking for to begin with yet the government came up with their verdict within a day or two. The OPCW people have already been told about the Novichok, yet still expect a matter of weeks, rather than days for the outcome to be decided.
And no doubt Boris will be expecting a microscope examination of the samples to reveal the blood cells will have "Made in Russia" stamped throughout, like a stick of Blackpool rock.
Boris should stick to Wiff Waff!

It took several days to come up with the agent ID, and it was that quick because they were working with relatively fresh samples of agent from the scene, not degraded samples from blood and retained evidence that are three weeks old. Porton were working with relatively fresh, relatively high concentration, samples. Porton also almost certainly already had most of the Novichok agent signatures on record (it is their job, whereas the OPCW have never probably not seen any Novichok agents, and almost certainly not A234 - none were declared to them AFAIK).

All agents degrade and dilute with time, as all will be volatile to some degree, so older samples will be a damned sight harder to analyse than fresh ones. A good example was the use of Sarin in Syria. IIRC, it took Porton around 2 to 3 weeks to make a definitive analysis and confirm that the agent used was Sarin, primarily because they were using degraded samples taken from remnants of clothing, so extraction was far from easy.

It's easy to imply foul play when you don't fully understand the logistical and scientific issues surrounding the collection of samples, separation of possible agent from those samples, elimination of contaminants from the separated content and then doing the analysis. The latter is the relatively quick and easy bit, the former can take weeks.

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 07:53
Why is it that 19 days after the attack on the Skripals, St Theresa is still using the phrase "it is highly likely that Russia was involved"? 19 days on and still no movement toward something a little more like "we have proof that Russia did it".
This doesn't bode well for the future of citizens of the UK. Imagine being hauled before a court on some vague charge and the magistrate finding it "highly likely" you were guilty, showing you no evidence and dealing with you accordingly.
Won't happen? Well, what is considered justice in the international arena could surely be considered justice in the domestic arena.
Don't forget, the same Mrs May is currently trying to make it a criminal offence to insult MPs. I forget which Bill it is included in, possibly a security related one.

Maybe because they either don't know, or don't wish to publicly reveal at this stage, the identity of the perpetrator and his or her nationality?

I dislike her, but think that she is choosing her words very carefully, unlike some of her colleagues.

ImageGear
23rd Mar 2018, 07:55
As with everything that becomes subject to law, and the term "Innocent until proven guilty", does not mean that the said party is "Innocent". Just merely that the weight of evidence available does not support the charge of guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

Does anyone have any "reasonable doubt" that the Russians did the deed? - nope? thought so.

IG

sitigeltfel
23rd Mar 2018, 08:05
Nasty, nasty UK government, keeping poor KelvinD out of the loop when any new discoveries or developments arise. Don't they know it is his RIGHT to be given highly classified and sensitive information the minute it surfaces? What is the world coming to, I ask ya!

;)

Effluent Man
23rd Mar 2018, 08:16
But they are not just keeping Kelvin out of the loop they are keeping everybody out of it. Some people are so keen to convict Putin that they are prepared to move from beyond reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. This is totally against the basis of our justice system. Those of us who still stick to the claim that the higher level of proof is required are apparently only Putin's puppets and trolls. That is pretty pathetic really.

flash8
23rd Mar 2018, 08:23
And we haven't even heard enough evidence to determine even balance of probabilities more to the point.

Granted they may be holding it back but unlikely as Boris can never hold his mouth back that long.

Meanwhile we will be paying the EU back till 2064... much further down the page along with a raft of bad brexit news. Such a coincidence.

ORAC
23rd Mar 2018, 08:46
The definition of a nation state is one which retains a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence and which laws and a system of justice applies. The international system is an anarchic system where the balance of power between states is fluid.

The concept if justice and proof in such a system is a misnomer - for all the efforts of the courts in The Hague etc there is no international legal system - and no burden of proof - as no state can force another to produce evidence, to open their files, or to produce witnesses under pain of punishment.

Stan Woolley
23rd Mar 2018, 08:55
Porton were working with relatively fresh, relatively high concentration, samples

If this is true, surely it is sensitive info for some. Is it fact or just speculation?

Andy_S
23rd Mar 2018, 09:09
But they are not just keeping Kelvin out of the loop they are keeping everybody out of it. Some people are so keen to convict Putin that they are prepared to move from beyond reasonable doubt to balance of probabilities. This is totally against the basis of our justice system. Those of us who still stick to the claim that the higher level of proof is required are apparently only Putin's puppets and trolls. That is pretty pathetic really.

I think Siti has a point, though.

A lot of people are demanding that the UK government declares any evidence it may have gathered. But this is a complex and ongoing investigation. Are the government really obliged to provide a running commentary. Is it practical or even sensible for them to do so?

I appreciate that calling for firm evidence doesn’t necessarily make someone one of Putins cybertrolls, and I’ve seen enough of your contributions over the years to know that you are sensible and objective. Equally, though, there is more than enough circumstantial evidence to allow reasonable suspicion of Russian involvement, either state sanctioned or through a state agency. The EU seem to think so, don’t they? And yet there is a vociferous element here on PPRuNe who seem grimly determined to deflect any criticism of Russia, even to the extent of concocting some quite bizarre conspiracy theories.

Effluent Man
23rd Mar 2018, 09:21
Thank you for your comment re: Sensible and objective. If I can put it in terms of the legal system again, we are at the stage where the CPS would be deciding whether or not the evidence available allows a charge to be brought with a reasonable chance of a successful conviction. But here we have Boris speaking as if the case is done and dusted. It clearly isn't. And not only that but Boris has gone on to metaphorically draw a comparison with the chief suspect in the case and Fred West.

I was quite shocked when Boris picked up the 1936 Olympics thread. I had thought that he was merely playing the buffoon but that has now been revealed as his true persona. He clearly is not fit for office at the level of Foreign Secretary. The man is a liability.

Sallyann1234
23rd Mar 2018, 09:40
When it comes to providing the demanded proof of Russian involvement, the other aspect is the Ultra problem.
How much of your Intelligence and your methods of obtaining it are you willing to reveal?

Andy_S
23rd Mar 2018, 10:14
If I can put it in terms of the legal system again, we are at the stage where the CPS would be deciding whether or not the evidence available allows a charge to be brought with a reasonable chance of a successful conviction.

Agreed. And – hypothetically – if we were able to put ‘Russia’ in the dock and gave it a fair trial then I don’t think there is any likelihood we would secure a conviction. But to be honest, I can’t see any prospect of anyone ever being charged for this incident. If it was Russian sponsored then anyone involved in the planning and execution will be shielded by the Russian state (and probably honoured and rewarded in the process, just to rub our noses in it).

So, that being the case, don’t our government have an obligation to at least try to protect its citizens by sending out a message to anyone who could reasonably be suspected of being behind the Salisbury incident that carrying out this sort of act has implications?

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 10:20
If this is true, surely it is sensitive info for some. Is it fact or just speculation?

It's in the public domain that they were called in as soon as a " suspected terrorist incident" was declared by Wiltshire Police. News reports here made it clear (as if the photographic evidence wasn't enough for those that can recognise the different types of PPE used by different agencies). AFAIK, they are still always called in when any such incident involves a suspected chemical or biological substance - there is a "hotline" that's manned 24/7, colloquially known as the "white powder event" line (because many of the calls are from police services who have had reports of white powder in packages, I suspect). The vast majority of the calls they get are false alarms; the one that sticks in my mind was the chap selling cans marked Zyklon B (as a very sick joke) at a car boot sale in Essex, IIRC.

KelvinD
23rd Mar 2018, 10:37
AndyS: I know I have made it clear on more than one occasion but I can do so again that my query re the evidence relates not to what I think the government should be publishing in the Daily Wail et al, but is quite simply this: Wouldn't normal diplomatic protocols have the F.O. call in the Russian ambassador and say "We are accusing you and here is evidence of our accusations"? They don't need to reveal it totally (thus answering SallyAnn's question) but at least the bare bones of what they are telling us evidence.
Why go to the extent of even refusing point blank to allow the Russians sight of any evidence? If the evidence is good, then confront them with it. If the evidence is preliminary and in need of further analysis and development, then keep quiet until the evidence becomes firmer and perhaps less contestable. But then, the authorities here are not without form in this area, viz the number of criminal cases having gone forward with evidence having been withheld from the defence (ie, the accused).
So, hopefully one can now see siti did not have a point. But then, siti has form. If I was to ask what day Easter falls on this year, I would expect an answer along the lines of "Tranmere Rovers have never won the FA Cup"!

KelvinD
23rd Mar 2018, 10:42
VP959: I wonder why selling cans marked Zyklon B was such a big deal? When I lived in Wiesbaden in the 1990s, IG Farben were still producing it just down the road on the outskirts of Frankfurt. At that time, they found themselves in trouble for selling it into Iraq. I don't remember the details but I learned about it from the local newspaper.
As far as I know, it is still being produced for its original use as a pesticide.
I will, of course, agree that if the idiot selling the cans thought it was funny to promote the Nazi use of the stuff, then serves him right for whatever trouble he found himself in.

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 11:16
VP959: I wonder why selling cans marked Zyklon B was such a big deal? When I lived in Wiesbaden in the 1990s, IG Farben were still producing it just down the road on the outskirts of Frankfurt. At that time, they found themselves in trouble for selling it into Iraq. I don't remember the details but I learned about it from the local newspaper.
As far as I know, it is still being produced for its original use as a pesticide.
I will, of course, agree that if the idiot selling the cans thought it was funny to promote the Nazi use of the stuff, then serves him right for whatever trouble he found himself in.

It turned out it wasn't real, it was talcum powder, I think, and the seller was selling the stuff in rusty tins alongside a lot of other Nazi memorabilia, IIRC, which is why he came to the attention of the police in the first place. They played safe and called the hotline, just in case the tins were genuine WWII stuff from the death camps.

Some might say it was an over-reaction, but I suspect the police err on the side of caution whenever they encounter something like this in that sort of setting.

atakacs
23rd Mar 2018, 16:28
Porton were working with relatively fresh, relatively high concentration, samples. Porton also almost certainly already had most of the Novichok agent signatures on record (it is their job, whereas the OPCW have never probably not seen any Novichok agents, and almost certainly not A234 - none were declared to them AFAIK).

Yet reading the High Court judgement

i) CC: Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst
Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent. (my emphasis)

If they have definitely identified A234 why such a careful wording ?

KelvinD
23rd Mar 2018, 16:45
Some might say it was an over-reaction,
No, I don't think it was, given the circumstances you describe. As I said, serves him right!

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 17:08
Yet reading the High Court judgement



If they have definitely identified A234 why such a careful wording ?

Because no one has actually had a sample of A234, AFAIK. The exact formulation is either the one that Mirzayanov put forward (which may be unreliable, IMHO - he admitted not having been involved in synthesising it, and frankly I don't wholly trust Mirzayanov) or may be the slightly different formulation put forward by Hoenig.

What seems certain is that it is an agent that is closely related to, and a derivative of, A232. A232 is a known novichok, that formulation doesn't seem to be in any doubt.

None of this class of agents was formally declared to the CWC, so their whole existence was a fairly well kept secret until the trial of Mirzayanov in Russia, when the evidence presented by the Russian state revealed their existence, but not the formulation, or the number of variants. The general consensus is that there are between 80 and 100 different agents that were developed under the novichok programme, but I'm not sure anyone knows for sure how many were actually tested or weaponised.

There is some evidence that some were weaponised, those old enough to remember from the Cold War period may recall hearing about binary weapons. A few of the novichoks were binary weapons, designed to evade the strictures on manufacturing chemical weapons by being able to claim that each of the binary agents on their own were not chemical agents that could be defined as weapons.

As I mentioned before, the process of separating agent from contamination is far from easy, especially to a standard that meets the "beyond reasonable doubt" criterion. It takes time to make a definitive analysis, far, far longer that daft TV shows like CSI would lead the public to believe. Ask any police officer how long it takes to get solid forensic evidence from a lab and I'll bet they will tell you that it can take weeks. I will lay money that they are still working around the clock to separate out agent from all the samples they have collected, and probably will be for weeks to come, so it may be some time before there is absolute confirmation, in the legal sense. Right now I would suggest the probability of the agent being A234 is probably better than 90%, and of it being an agent related to A232 close to 100%, but I don't have access to the data, I'm simply estimating on the basis of how long this type of separation and analysis often takes.

flash8
23rd Mar 2018, 17:55
VP

Your contributions and patience are immeasurable and I think most of us interested in the subject on this thread cannot dispute that, including myself who worked in the area for a number of years. I also think you are pretty unbiased, obviously looking at it with a pure science focus, to think for years I was surrounded by world class CDC scientists daily, and was never curious then. One person who did predict this sort of thing to me though once in a Kazakh or Uzbek bar was the late Roger Breeze, and even then I wasn't that interested at the time!

However I tend to go first for the motive, because that is the only one factor that has driven this whole scenario.

Whoever engineered this would be extremely aware of the nearby facility, and it may well be that Skripal/and/or his Daughter were targeted primarily due to proximity and the seeds of more doubt and confusion that would cause. I'd even go as far as saying I reckon that would be the case - this was obviously an intelligent sophisticated attack and this must have been a factor. The victim(s) would have been secondary to this. This argument extends to the 'UK' as well, and perhaps even a small attractive old-worlde city, the location was perhaps the biggest factor.

Russia have vehemently refuted the claim they were involved, and having listened to one of their (one hour) free-for-all questions press conference (something you will never see in the UK) I can understand their point. They simply had NOTHING to gain, and everything to lose (which they admitted!). Not what you'd expect them to say if they were indeed the culprits (where I'd expect quick in-and-out no questions 15m briefings like the UK).

The UK and Boris strong-arm tactics as well as that idiot of a defence secretary have gone way beyond diplomatic norms (that exist for good reason), scarily so, just ask the ex UK Ambassador to Russia who stated that Ministers "were shooting their mouths off" even before the infamous Hitler jibe (sorry, that was way, way out of line). I am in Russia and here many are deeply offended by his statements. You just don't say these things.

Given the absolutely disastrous Brexit news (and much more of that to come), this government is being slaughtered, it makes great sense for them to spin this ad-infinitum, for months if they can.

Lots of theories floating around here in the media, some even postulating this was the British (even I don't go that far, as you said earlier folk are folk and have consciences) but absolutely nobody here believes it was Russia.

I am not however at all confident in the UK government, they seem to be digging (very fast) a ditch with a large shovel and betting the farm they'll have no need for a ladder.

VP959
23rd Mar 2018, 18:14
Thanks for the kind words, my curiosity is a mixed blessing - a good trait for a scientist, not such a good trait when it comes to personal relationships!

I'm not at all convinced the Russian state are behind this at all. I also think some of our politicians are barking mad in what they are saying, particularly BJ, who seems to be incapable of saying anything without putting his foot in his mouth.

As I think I may have mentioned before, I suspect this may well turn out to be personal, a grudge held by one or more of the people Skripal betrayed. We don't know what happened to all those whose cover was blown by him, but it wouldn't surprise me if some met a sticky end.

There seems to be a big question mark over how well the technical knowledge, access to materiel and facilities, etc, was secured by the Russian state. I suspect that in the general chaos during the break up of the former soviet union there may well have been a number of "private enterprises" set up, to meet demands from some of the minority of ruthless individuals intent on getting rich by any means. It seems possible that someone who's managed to make a lot of money and who still bears a grudge about his betrayed comrades could have engineered an attack like this.

It may well be entirely true that Vladimir Putin knew nothing about it, but he has acquired, perhaps even cultivated, an image that suggests he could have been behind it. I can't see a motive for him even sanctioning such an attack at this time, though, so suspect it was someone else with the power, money and influence who was behind it, without the President's direct knowledge.

Unfortunately, when this type of attack is made by one state against another, even if it turns out to be a criminal act by an individual, or individuals, the state bears some responsibility, even if it's just that they failed to control the manufacture, development and testing of the weapon, just because of the nature of the facilities that would be needed to do that.

Chronus
23rd Mar 2018, 19:52
Had it been that a well flattened ex Russian spook had been found on SPTA would the probability of it being dropped from an Aeroflute flight be greater than having been squashed by one of our Challener 2 tanks. But, what a stroke of genius to house an ex Russian spook within spitting distance of Porton Down and a military training area.

barry lloyd
23rd Mar 2018, 21:43
Knowing the Russians as I do, I can only imagine how, at a diplomatic level at least, they must be astounded at some of the comments coming out of the UK. Britain has rightly prided itself in being a leader in how to conduct diplomacy in the past, but following this event, we seem to have to have resorted to schoolyard insults with a country which has a long and proud history of literature.

I don't think I have ever seen any country resort to this level before and I can't help wondering why. The cameras present at the embassy when the staff left, the cameras at Stansted, to see them get on their chartered aircraft, etc. I can't remember a time, even during the height of the Cold War, when such insults were exchanged. Is this because of the incompetence of the current ministers, or is there something bigger at play? Surely senior beings in the FCO realise full well that we should not overplay our hand here.

Forget the gas - the amount of gas we buy from Russia is infinitesimal and I don't understand why this is quoted so frequently. Perhaps this is a measure of just how much we misunderstand - or are deliberately misled - about this nation.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat."

Sun Tzu - The Art Of War

racedo
23rd Mar 2018, 22:09
I'm not at all convinced the Russian state are behind this at all. I also think some of our politicians are barking mad in what they are saying, particularly BJ, who seems to be incapable of saying anything without putting his foot in his mouth.


Sometimes the foot can be put in the mouth as part of a bigger agenda.



As I think I may have mentioned before, I suspect this may well turn out to be personal, a grudge held by one or more of the people Skripal betrayed. We don't know what happened to all those whose cover was blown by him, but it wouldn't surprise me if some met a sticky end.

There seems to be a big question mark over how well the technical knowledge, access to materiel and facilities, etc, was secured by the Russian state. I suspect that in the general chaos during the break up of the former soviet union there may well have been a number of "private enterprises" set up, to meet demands from some of the minority of ruthless individuals intent on getting rich by any means. It seems possible that someone who's managed to make a lot of money and who still bears a grudge about his betrayed comrades could have engineered an attack like this.

It may well be entirely true that Vladimir Putin knew nothing about it, but he has acquired, perhaps even cultivated, an image that suggests he could have been behind it. I can't see a motive for him even sanctioning such an attack at this time, though, so suspect it was someone else with the power, money and influence who was behind it, without the President's direct knowledge.

Unfortunately, when this type of attack is made by one state against another, even if it turns out to be a criminal act by an individual, or individuals, the state bears some responsibility, even if it's just that they failed to control the manufacture, development and testing of the weapon, just because of the nature of the facilities that would be needed to do that.

When the other Russian guy was found it was supposed to be a Russian hit but it has gone quiet, especially when it is alledged he was involved in S&M with a boyfriend who was with him before he died.

One wonders was the death of Stephen Milligan MP really what it was claimed to be or someone with the capacity and knowledge making it out to be that.

galaxy flyer
23rd Mar 2018, 22:38
Lots of theories floating around here in the media, some even postulating this was the British (even I don't go that far, as you said earlier folk are folk and have consciences) but absolutely nobody here believes it was Russia.

I’m sure they don’t believe, just as it wasn’t a Russian missile that shot down MH17; or Russian polonium that killed Litvinenko; or the Russian state that murdered dozens of press and other anti-Putin people. It all a “false flag” operation to make innocent Russia look bad. Well, Russia can do a pretty good by itself without Western assistance.

GF

racedo
23rd Mar 2018, 22:51
I’m sure they don’t believe, just as it wasn’t a Russian missile that shot down MH17; or Russian polonium that killed Litvinenko; or the Russian state that murdered dozens of press and other anti-Putin people. It all a “false flag” operation to make innocent Russia look bad. Well, Russia can do a pretty good by itself without Western assistance.

GF

Russia could say the same of Vince Foster and lots of other people who died mysterious deaths when connected with politicians in the US ?

Who killed JFK/RFK/Paul Wellstone etc etc

flash8
23rd Mar 2018, 23:08
I’m sure they don’t believe, just as it wasn’t a Russian missile that shot down MH17; or Russian polonium that killed Litvinenko; or the Russian state that murdered dozens of press and other anti-Putin people.

There's a red under every bed gf!

galaxy flyer
24th Mar 2018, 02:25
Did those murderers NOT happen? It was all a lie by the “running dogs of imperialism”.

GF

ORAC
24th Mar 2018, 07:54
Probably just a coincidence, right? Especially the campaign starting before Russia being pinpointed as responsible. But, nice of you to drop by.....

Skripal attack: 2,800 Russian bots ‘sowed confusion after poison attacks’ (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2-800-russian-bots-sowed-confusion-after-poison-attacks-zf6lvb3nc)

Russia unleashed an “extensive” disinformation operation in Britain after the Salisbury spy attack, with thousands of suspected robotic accounts spreading doubt and conspiracy on the internet.... It is understood that an estimated 2,800 such online accounts are suspected of posting material about the attempted murder of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury, according to monitoring reports prepared for the government. Messages posted by the suspect accounts are thought to have been interacted with 75 million times and to have reached at least 7.5 million people in Britain.

A key aim of the accounts appears to be to cast doubt on Theresa May’s assessment that the Kremlin is responsible for the nerve agent attack on March 4 and to turn people in Britain against each other by helping to ferment divisions, according to sources. “We have seen the Russian state deploy an extensive disinformation campaign around the Salisbury incident,” a British official said. “This campaign curiously began before the prime minister announced that Russia was behind the attack.”

Russia uses disinformation, amplified by state-backed news organisations and posts on social media platforms, as one of its hybrid weapons of war. The tactic has been deployed in attempts to mask Russian culpability in the downing of a passenger jet over Ukraine in 2014 and to cover up the killing of civilians in Syria. “There is an information confrontation, they seek to turn us against ourselves,” a European security source said. “The Kremlin has an appetite for this, a sense of impunity.”

The monitoring reports are understood to have been prepared for officials co-ordinating a cross-government response to Russia’s disinformation operations. This includes the creation in 2016 of a unit at the Foreign Office to examine open source material.

It is difficult to know for sure whether or not a social media account is automated or operated by a person. The number of human-assisted bots is growing and Russia is known to use real people posing on social media as someone else to exploit divisions.......

VP959
24th Mar 2018, 08:26
I rather think that some nations, mainly in the West, have missed a trick when it to using social media as a propaganda machine. We had a glimpse of how effective it can be with the Scottish Referendum, when a large number of, mainly younger, people, were reasonably effectively organised by a relatively immature "cybernat" team. Much the same happened with the last General Election; Labour were far more effective at using social media to get their message across than the Conservatives, so much so that I would say that social media pretty much created the "cult of Jeremy Corbyn" that seemed to prevail, and still does to a fair extent.

There's increasing evidence that social media was used during the US election campaign, although I remain unconvinced yet that it made a significant difference to the outcome.

We do know that social media can have a remarkable impact in a very short period of time, and can easily create an illusion of wrongdoing by an individual or group. There was a short play on BBC Radio 4 yesterday afternoon that illustrated this, and it was very easy to imagine how a mob could be fired up by misleading information spread this way: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09w2tjj

For those able to listen to it on iPlayer it's only 15 minutes long and illustrates how social media can demonise someone in a very short period of time. It's fiction, but could very well be the sort of thing that happens in real life.

Our government doesn't yet seem to have grasped how social media really works, or how influential it can be, although I get the distinct feeling that some of the other political parties that are not in power (yet) may well be a fair way ahead of the game in using it.

If the story in the Times turns out to be verified, then it could well be that positive evidence of an active social media campaign emanating from Russia, that was started before Russia was suspected, may be more of a "smoking gun" than the physical evidence.

One thing's for sure, we now have to consider pretty much everything we hear or read as being potentially false until proven otherwise. I don't think there is an honest and truthful source of news available anywhere any more, or even if there ever has been.

Stan Woolley
24th Mar 2018, 08:54
I rather think that some nations, mainly in the West, have missed a trick when it to using social media as a propaganda machine. We had a glimpse of how effective it can be with the Scottish Referendum, when a large number of, mainly younger, people, were reasonably effectively organised by a relatively immature "cybernat" team.

While that may be true, what is definitely worth noting is how effective the state propaganda machine can be when it is focussed in one direction delivering a sustained constant salvo. When the establishment realised very late in the day that there was every possibility that they might well lose the referendum, for those of us with an interest in these things and taking a different side from the powers that be, the biased, one sided propaganda was a sight to behold. Did it do the job? You bet your ass it did. Just as it’s doing it’s job at the moment.

One thing's for sure, we now have to consider pretty much everything we hear or read as being potentially false until proven otherwise.

Can it ever really be proven?
One thing that I’ve learned is that it’s almost impossible to change opinions when someone’s hard wired against the evidence and the easiest thing in the world to convince someone if they’re desperate to believe it.

KelvinD
24th Mar 2018, 09:45
Especially the campaign starting before Russia being pinpointed as responsible
Russia unleashed an “extensive” disinformation operation in Britain after the Salisbury spy attack
Well, which one was it? Before the attack or after?

highflyer40
24th Mar 2018, 10:25
Well, which one was it? Before the attack or after?

What is it with peoples reading comprehension today?

Read the 2 quotes again..

“Started after the ATTACK”
And
“Started before the IMPLICATION”

Get it...?

racedo
24th Mar 2018, 13:16
I rather think that some nations, mainly in the West, have missed a trick when it to using social media as a propaganda machine.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/us-cuban-twitter-zunzuneo-stir-unrest

Some people need to get real regarding continually blaming Russia, North Korea, China and everybody else regarding Social Media and its abuse as propoganda.

The West is streets ahread of all of this.

USAID happy to use Twitter to stir things up in Cuba.

Arab Spring was when Social Media used very clearly with a single intent............. hands of State Department were all over it.

Uk Football clubs are happily pushing their apps and overseas content into China etc................. whats the bets there are bots harvesting data from Chinese computers hidden within them.

flash8
24th Mar 2018, 14:13
The drip-drip nature of the whole information release seems to be attempting to string this out as long as possible as the main headline, today for example it is yet again the leader at the Telegraph (where they know when they are onto a good thing).

That Public Health England releases advice 23 days later to not hand in items to the dry-cleaners but the local council must certainly be part of this drip-drip, or could it be they want these clothes/evidence destroyed? One would have thought the Police should collect it all as potential evidence if they thought it could be contaminated. But it seems nothing has been sought from anyone in the vicinity.

There are so many holes in the government narrative nobody should be the least surprised outside the media it is being treated by many with extreme scepticism. Even the Daily Mail, not known for its liberal leanings in its comments section has the vast majority of its readers completely unhappy with the current governments version, not sure now if I find that surprising.

Again, I am not saying that Russia is not responsible, but that the "evidence" so far is so flaky and delivered by figures with a complete lack of credibility such as the Foreign Secretary whose relationship with the truth has been loose at the best of times.

VP959
24th Mar 2018, 15:25
The drip-drip nature of the whole information release seems to be attempting to string this out as long as possible as the main headline, today for example it is yet again the leader at the Telegraph (where they know when they are onto a good thing).

That Public Health England releases advice 23 days later to not hand in items to the dry-cleaners but the local council must certainly be part of this drip-drip, or could it be they want these clothes/evidence destroyed? One would have thought the Police should collect it all as potential evidence if they thought it could be contaminated. But it seems nothing has been sought from anyone in the vicinity.

There are so many holes in the government narrative nobody should be the least surprised outside the media it is being treated by many with extreme scepticism. Even the Daily Mail, not known for its liberal leanings in its comments section has the vast majority of its readers completely unhappy with the current governments version, not sure now if I find that surprising.

Again, I am not saying that Russia is not responsible, but that the "evidence" so far is so flaky and delivered by figures with a complete lack of credibility such as the Foreign Secretary whose relationship with the truth has been loose at the best of times.


I think I've said this twice now, but forensic science reality is absolutely nothing like forensic science as portrayed on TV, in shows like CSI, where evidence is analysed in minutes and very clear and unequivocal data is handed to investigators within an hour or two of the investigation starting.

This is the timeline, according to information that has been released to the media (so treat it with caution):

Sunday March 4, 2018

1:40 p.m. The Skripals park in the multi storey car park next to The Maltings and walk to The Mill pub.

14:20 p.m. They are seen leaving the pub and walking the short distance to an Italian Restaurant Zizzi's, where they stay until around 15:35.

15:47 CCTV shows them walking back towards The Maltings, perhaps heading back to the car park.

16:15 The first member of the public calls the police to report the couple as being collapsed on a bench in the open area of The Maltings, adjacent to the path they would have taken if heading for the car park.

The police arrive soon after this call and find the pair in a serious condition, paramedics and an ambulance are called and they are taken to Salisbury District Hospital. It has been confirmed locally that Sgt Nick Bailey was one of the first police officers on scene. Two police officers are taken to hospital for treatment, one being Sgt Bailey.

Monday March 5th 2018

Mid-morning, Wiltshire Police declare this as a "serious incident". From photographs that have been released it looks near-certain (from the different PPE) that at least two people from Porton Down may be involved in the activity around the bench where the couple collapsed (not confirmed from any source, AFAIK).

12:00 Boris Johnson makes a completely speculative comment that if Russia are involved Britain will respond robustly. At this stage he has no evidence at all, it seems, just the names of the victims.

14:11 Wiltshire Police hand the investigation over to the Counter Terrorism branch of the Metropolitan Police who state that they are not treating the incident as terrorist related.

Wednesday 7th March 2018

There is a meeting of COBRA and afterwards a statement reveals that the attack was almost certainly a nerve agent and the incident is being treated as attempted murder.

Friday 9th March 2018

Specialist military forces are moved to the area to close off areas, assist with decontamination and the transport of large items of suspected contaminated equipment, including several vehicles.

Saturday 10th March 2018

Another COBRA meeting is held, and Sergei Skripal's car is recovered from the vehicle impound park where the council contractors had towed it to for over-staying it's parking time in the multi storey car park. It seems the police had no idea his car was parked there until it was located in the impound park in Gillingham.

Sunday 11th March 2018

Warnings are issued to all Salisbury residents or visitors that were in either The Mill or Zizzi's on the day of the attack to wash all clothes that could be washed and double bag all clothes that needed dry cleaning. Five locations around Salisbury, including the bench, the pub, the restaurant, the car and Sergei Skripal's home are identified as possible sources of the agent. It seems likely that this was the point where the probable nature of he agent was first suspected by Porton Down.

Monday 12th March 2018

Early on this morning the area of the car park where Sergei Skripal's car had been was added to the cordoned off locations,

Theresa May announces on the Commons that the Skripals were poisoned with a Russian-made nerve agent called novichok. No mention is made of the sub-type.

Later, the agent is tentatively identified as being A234. The Russian Federation is given a deadline of midnight on Tuesday 13th March 2018 to respond.

Tuesday 13th March 2018

The Russian official response is that they will not comply with any demand until they are given access to a sample of the agent used.

Later on the same day, Dr Vil Mirzayanov makes his first statement about the attack, warning of the toxicity of some of the novichok agents (and appearing to promote a book he wrote some time earlier).

Wednesday 14th March 2018

23 Russian diplomats are given a weeks notice to leave the UK. Russia denies any involvement in the attack.

Thursday 15th March 2018

The UK, US, Germany and France call on Russia to give a full and frank disclosure of it entire novichok programme to the OPCW. Russia denies ever having had any such programme. This is in direct contradiction to the evidence that Russia gave at the trial of Dr Vil Mirzayanov, where they admitted that the information on the novichok programme was no longer classified.

Since then all we know is that the OPCW are at Porton Down, and are independently analysing samples. Given that it took Porton Down 7 days from the start of their sample collection to conformation that the agent was a novichok, most probably A234, and that the OPCW will be working with samples that are nearly three weeks older, I doubt if they will be able to release any further information for a day or two yet.

The above is just an illustration as to why it seems as if the general public are being "drip fed" information - it takes longer than many would believe to obtain accurate information, and then there is time after that when the politicians have to decide how best to convey (or spin!) that information if they choose to release it.

Chronus
24th Mar 2018, 20:20
The government`s propaganda machine succesfully at work to divert public attention away from real issues, such as Brexit and rally some support from our so called "friends" in the EU.

fitliker
24th Mar 2018, 21:18
A politician trying to avoid a discussion about the spanking they are getting in negotiations ?
The long term danger is by lowering the bar on evidence before issuing allegations of such a serious nature.
What if someone were to make similar accusations about some of the many private contractors operating under the radar in Syria ? The bar on evidence has been lowered into the gutter ,under the pretense of protecting the secret squirrel club .
If some of these politicians look scared now ,wait until they have to deal with the hawk that will replace Russia's Neville Chamberlain.
Putin has allowed affronts ,insults and encroachment s that nobody would have dared do against Stalin.
Putin's days are numbered if he does not get an apology for this latest affront against a nation that has a long history of defeating and winning against hostile invaders from all directions.
It is a mistake to attack a soft peaceful person like Putin . His replacement will not be so kind or gentle.
Cometh the hour ,cometh the replacement :)

flash8
24th Mar 2018, 21:52
I think Putin (And Lavrov) has been remarkably calm, but there again these are experienced World leaders with nearly twenty years at the top, it takes a lot to ruffle them.

Problem with our Politicians is that it is impossible to take back the insults (for that are what they are) they have thrown out, gutter level style, the same politicians they gave us Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. It is absolutely incredulous what Boris Johnson can get away with due to an utterly weak Prime Minister, and as I have made no pretence, the Defence secretary is a complete and utter joke.

All this will come back and bite them hard, but they only think of short-term gain, getting the bad news that crucify their party out of the headlines.

With BoJo I am genuinely ashamed to be British, he has no decency, shame or scruples.

btw. Thanks for the timeline VP.

ORAC
25th Mar 2018, 07:01
A bit of a giggle watching the Russophiles sitting in a circle agreeing with each other. Meanwhile in the real world the UK is getting increasing support and backing.

If Putin rt all are so upset at the home truths being told to them, tough.

Jack D
25th Mar 2018, 07:59
With BoJo I am genuinely ashamed to be British, he has no decency, shame or scruples

Jack D
25th Mar 2018, 08:03
Think you may have got the name & nationality of the politician mixed up there old son . Sorry to hear you’re ashamed to be British, I would say just about everyone has felt moments of shame regarding their nationality at one time or another.

Sallyann1234
25th Mar 2018, 08:28
It is a mistake to attack a soft peaceful person like Putin .
:yuk: :yuk:
Tell that to the Syrians bombed by Russian planes, in support of a dictator who uses chemical weapons on his own people.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 09:37
It is a mistake to attack a soft peaceful person like Putin .

Is this the same Vladimir Putin that has carefully cultured a persona within and outwith Russia of being a very tough hard man, that no one should think of crossing, lest they meet with an "accident"?

For example, the evidence against Andrei Lugovoi, possibly assisted by Dmitri Kovtun, over the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in the UK, was compelling enough for Sir Robert Owen's public enquiry to determine that not only were Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitri Kovtun the murderers, but that they had almost certainly been acting under the direct orders of the FSB. No intelligence service, even the FSB, allows it's agents to act autonomously in this way, especially given the bizarre nature of the toxin, Polonium 210, which was traced, by it's signature, to a specific Russian facility, the only one in the world that produced Polonium 210 with those specific markers.

Remember this is the same Valdimir Putin that oversaw the passing of a law that specifically allows the Russian Federation to commit the extrajudicial killing of anyone that they feel they need to dispose of in other other country in the world, whether or not a state of war exists between the Russian Federation and that country or not. The Russian Federation effectively gave up any pretence at compliance with UN human rights rules in 2016, and right now pays lip service to them by only complying with the most basic rules, like those concerning the right to education, etc, but blatantly ignores other human rights agreements, such as those relating to gender, sexual preference etc, yet seemingly never gets effectively called to account for this.

How many other countries have such a law as the Russian Federation that specifically allows state extrajudicial murder?

The UK has very carefully complied with the ECHR, more so now than it did before Operation Flavius, as every government since that time (with the possible exception of Blair's) has recognised that "trial by media" made such activities potentially damaging, damaging enough to, perhaps, bring down a government.

Effluent Man
25th Mar 2018, 11:06
Quite clearly there are a range of views on Russia, but not all of us who don't accept our own government's line are necessarily Russophiles. Strident claims and ridiculous comparisons with Hitler don't go any way towards gaining the trust of those of us who are sceptical, in fact we smell a hidden agenda here even if we don't yet know exactly what it is.

The Cold War told us, if nothing else, that disinformation was a big factor on either side and certainly I do feel that we may look back on what is happening today at some future point and realise that everything was not exactly as it seemed.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 11:14
Not believing our own government's statements and not believing scientific evidence from an organisation with an excellent provenance are two completely different things, and should not be conflated.

I would be the first to say that I don't trust politicians of any persuasion, they all have a tendency to bend the truth, even openly lie, if it suits either their personal or party agendas to do so.

I'd also be the first to say that we have more than our fair share of politicians who engage their mouth long before engaging their brain.

That doesn't change the facts as we know them one iota, though, no matter what the media or politicians may do to try and twist them to try and make them appear different.

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 11:49
:yuk: :yuk:
Tell that to the Syrians bombed by Russian planes, in support of a dictator who uses chemical weapons on his own people.

Strange that all the evidence of Chemical weapons doesn't ever seem to appear............. then again western media wanted to talk about illegality of using White Phosphorous until pointed out US used this is Fallujah in Iraq and it all went quiet.

And as for bombing his own people are they the ones in areas controlled by Terrorists supplied and supported by US/UK/France/Israel/Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

The ruins of Raqqa: Shocking images of devastation | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4997038/The-ruins-Raqqa-Shocking-images-devastation.html)

Strange that all these seem happy to bomb Raqaa destroying all the infrastructure but you don't see it as headline News on BBC or elsewhere or Eiffel Tour being lit up in Sympathy.

Seems no media want to go into East Ghouta where tons of foreign owned chemicals were found and the people are happy to be rid of IS/AQ.

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 11:56
No intelligence service, even the FSB, allows it's agents to act autonomously in this way,.


Intyeresting because I posted days ago about MI5 and the Army along with NI securitys services crossing Republic of Ireland border and executing someone.

This means it was santioned by UK Govt to cross into another country to murder. The collusions that has been proven between UK intelligence services / Security forces and Loyalist terrorists was official UK policy.

As this happened from 1970's then UK Govt clearly has a policy of assassinating people opposed to it in foreign countrys as well as UK / NI .................. does it not ?
Kind of hard to be abusing Russia when Govt happy to allow it.

ORAC
25th Mar 2018, 12:06
Strange that all the evidence of Chemical weapons doesn't ever seem to appear.....

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-fact-finding-mission-confirms-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-khan-shaykhun-on-4-april-2017/

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 12:27
Intyeresting because I posted days ago about MI5 and the Army along with NI securitys services crossing Republic of Ireland border and executing someone.

This means it was santioned by UK Govt to cross into another country to murder. The collusions that has been proven between UK intelligence services / Security forces and Loyalist terrorists was official UK policy.

As this happened from 1970's then UK Govt clearly has a policy of assassinating people opposed to it in foreign countrys as well as UK / NI .................. does it not ?
Kind of hard to be abusing Russia when Govt happy to allow it.

Perhaps you could try re-reading my post and noting what I ACTUALLY wrote, rather than choosing to spin it into something I did not write. My last sentence is key, as it marked a step-change in what had been, prior to that, a covert "shoot to kill" policy. To save you the effort of scrolling up to re-read it properly, here is that last sentence from my earlier post:


The UK has very carefully complied with the ECHR, more so now than it did before Operation Flavius, as every government since that time (with the possible exception of Blair's) has recognised that "trial by media" made such activities potentially damaging, damaging enough to, perhaps, bring down a government.

KelvinD
25th Mar 2018, 12:28
racedo: When I joined the Army in 1965, it was whispered that the stock-in-trade of the SAS was to dispose of those considered to be enemies (or those just plain inconvenient) to the UK.
ORAC: I don't think the link to the OPCW finding in any way detracts from what racedo is saying and quite clearly refuses to point any fingers at possible perpetrators. After all, we have heard lots of reports of alleged use of chemical weapons from the Syrian theatre in recent times, but nothing ever seems to come from those.

Sallyann1234
25th Mar 2018, 12:31
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/09/un-report-details-sarin-gas-use-syria-doesnt-assign-blame/311051/
The team that collected evidence inside Syria notes one detail that suggests why Russia may still be hesitant to excoriate its Syrian allies — and its possible role in the attacks. Photographs of the rockets used to carry the gas include Cyrillic characters, as seen below. That the Russians supply Syria with weapons is not new information, but it's certainly not the sort of thing that the country's government is eager to have be directly implicated in the attack.

KelvinD
25th Mar 2018, 12:31
VP959: If there is one phrase that has constantly grated on me over the last 30 years or so, it is "shoot to kill". There is no alternative. In training, it is drummed into you over and over, you do not so much as point your weapon at anyone unless you are about to kill them. No "warning shots", no shooting to "wing" someone.
No dig at you intended here but it really is a silly expression.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 12:44
VP959: If there is one phrase that has constantly grated on me over the last 30 years or so, it is "shoot to kill". There is no alternative. In training, it is drummed into you over and over, you do not so much as point your weapon at anyone unless you are about to kill them. No "warning shots", no shooting to "wing" someone.
No dig at you intended here but it really is a silly expression.


Fully accepted, but in this very specific context (i.e. NI and the issues arising from Operation Flavius) "shoot to kill" acquired the specific meaning of extrajudicial executions carried out by the security services or, far more likely, specially trained groups like the SAS (given that the security services are essentially desk operatives for 90% of the time now).

fitliker
25th Mar 2018, 12:48
Wow, tell me again which countries have officially embraced regime change in other sovereign nations ?

Russiaphobia is almost like hydrophobia .

As Rudyard Kipling wrote
"If any ask why we died, tell them it is because our Fathers lied"
These scoundrels fear the truth more than they fear democracy,that is why they never speak the Truth. Only "their" Truth .
If you cannot see through the BS ,you are in desperate need of a very high colonic :)

ORAC
25th Mar 2018, 12:51
If you cannot see through the BS ,you are in desperate need of a very high colonic We can tovarisch, we can....

Stan Woolley
25th Mar 2018, 14:28
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-has-no-evidence-of-syrian-use-of-sarin-gas-mattis-says

larssnowpharter
25th Mar 2018, 14:41
Whilst I doubt that much of the evidence in this case will be made public in the near future, I suspect that it was shared with the intelligence agencies of the USA, Germany and France in short order. This explains why those nations came out so quickly in support of the UKs stance.

The more recent support from - an unusually united EU - would seem to enhance this view

Barksdale Boy
25th Mar 2018, 14:47
The fact that those posting that the events in Salisbury are not down to Russia are still free to express these views would seem to suggest that vehicles with blacked-out windows have not arrived outside their homes. One wonders if this would be the case if they were Russian citizens and had cast similar aspersions against the Putin regime from inside Russia.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 14:50
Whilst I doubt that much of the evidence in this case will be made public in the near future, I suspect that it was shared with the intelligence agencies of the USA, Germany and France in short order. This explains why those nations came out so quickly in support of the UKs stance.

The more recent support from - an unusually united EU - would seem to enhance this view

I agree, and know for sure that the info would have been exchanged with the US near-instantly, as there is a long standing protocol for doing this. I'm pretty sure a decision was made to share it with some, perhaps all, EU states as well, which is unusual, but given the politics involved probably a good call.

A lot rests on reputation here, and although I'm probably a bit biased, Porton Down does have a damned good reputation when it comes to the science involved. Even our US friends say as much, and reckon we get far better value for the money we spend on research than they do, and frankly praise from US experts carries a fair bit of weight on it's own.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 14:57
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-has-no-evidence-of-syrian-use-of-sarin-gas-mattis-says

That is as of the most recent attack, a few weeks ago. However, the US has stated previously that they do have proof of Sarin use in Syria in other attacks, just as we do: John Kerry: US 'has evidence of Syrian sarin use' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23918889) , which proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Syria has a Sarin production and delivery capability.

Quite why anyone would want to disbelieve all the evidence of nerve agents being used in several attacks in Syria I'm not sure, especially when multiple agencies have confirmed it.

Sallyann1234
25th Mar 2018, 15:39
Quite why anyone would want to disbelieve all the evidence of nerve agents being used in several attacks in Syria I'm not sure, especially when multiple agencies have confirmed it.
There's a world of difference between healthy cynicism and a stubborn refusal to accept clearly established facts.

Stan Woolley
25th Mar 2018, 15:52
Quite why anyone would want to disbelieve all the evidence of nerve agents being used in several attacks in Syria I'm not sure, especially when multiple agencies have confirmed it.

The reasons why I post things like this is not to show that I am on one side or the other, but simply to question the reporting! I find it just as strange that you and others tend to believe the shite that we’re fed as ‘fact’ by the usual suspects. So please don’t get all righteous on me. It MIGHT well be Assad forces that have used nerve agents, but there are plenty people who say otherwise, not all twisted headchoppers or Friends of Russia. All sorts of things go on in war, and I’m way past thinking that we are necessarily the ‘good guys’, if such a thing ever existed.

With all due respect, and not wishing to offend, but as someone who actually worked at Porton Down, you’re not exactly the first person that I’d listen to when it comes to ‘balance’. Can’t you see that?

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 16:03
The reasons why I post things like this is not to show that I am on one side or the other, but simply to question the reporting! I find it just as strange that you and others tend to believe the shite that we’re fed as ‘fact’ by the usual suspects. So please don’t get all righteous on me. It MIGHT well be Assad forces that have used nerve agents, but there are plenty people who say otherwise, not all twisted headchoppers or Friends of Russia. All sorts of things go on in war, and I’m way past thinking that we are necessarily the ‘good guys’, if such a thing ever existed.

With all due respect, and not wishing to offend, but as someone who actually worked at Porton Down, you’re not exactly the first person that I’d listen to when it comes to ‘balance’. Can’t you see that?

Not once have I asked you to trust or believe me personally; all I've done is try to remove all the media BS and "fake news" stuff and filter out what are clearly observable facts from political spin, which seems to cause a constant stream of critical comment from you, for no good reason that I can see.

You could get hold of any of the information I've looked through and make up your own mind as to the degree of bias, if any, that's been applied; I've taken great care to only use public domain information from trusted sources, in the main, and carefully caveated any source that may have bias. It's up to each of us, as I've said before, to research the background behind any reported story, from as many sources as possible, and try to reach the most balanced conclusion we can.

Why not try to apply your own critical judgement to ALL the available data that is in the public domain and then decide where the truth may lie, rather than just select bits of data that align with your own preconceptions and ignore anything else?

Nige321
25th Mar 2018, 16:16
With all due respect, and not wishing to offend, but as someone who actually worked at Porton Down, you’re not exactly the first person that I’d listen to when it comes to ‘balance’. Can’t you see that?

So go away and read another forum then...:ugh:

Andy_S
25th Mar 2018, 17:26
Strident claims and ridiculous comparisons with Hitler don't go any way towards gaining the trust of those of us who are sceptical......

Sorry EF, but the comparisons between Hitler and Putin are horribly apt.

Dr Jekyll
25th Mar 2018, 17:27
Apologies if this has already been covered, but what did Mr Skripal do for a living? Presumably he won't a pension from Russia.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 17:32
Apologies if this has already been covered, but what did Mr Skripal do for a living? Presumably he won't a pension from Russia.

My understanding is that he received a grant plus a pension as a part of the deal made during the exchange. It's not clear whether or not he's done any paid work in addition to this, but he may have done. This is only what's been reported though, so we have no way of knowing for sure if it's true or not.

Stan Woolley
25th Mar 2018, 17:42
Why not try to apply your own critical judgement to ALL the available data that is in the public domain and then decide where the truth may lie, rather than just select bits of data that align with your own preconceptions and ignore anything else?

It’s not ‘bits of data’ that have formed any ‘preconceptions’ that I may have, it’s much more than that. You seem upset? It’s not personal, we simply disagree.

especially when multiple agencies have confirmed it.

Which agencies do you mean?

I was trying to explain as it seemed like you couldn’t understand my thinking. Its not been proven to ME that the facts are as they appear. It seems to ME that here is something dodgy with the sudden rush to judgement. Lots of fine journalists like John Pilger echo my doubts.

arketip
25th Mar 2018, 17:58
So go away and read another forum then...:ugh:

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 18:08
It’s not ‘bits of data’ that have formed any ‘preconceptions’ that I may have, it’s much more than that. You seem upset? It’s not personal, we simply disagree.

Which agencies do you mean?

I was trying to explain as it seemed like you couldn’t understand my thinking. Its not been proven to ME that the facts are as they appear. It seems to ME that here is something dodgy with the sudden rush to judgement. Lots of fine journalists like John Pilger echo my doubts.


I'm not concerned with the politics of it at all, my focus is primarily on what happened, when it happened, what the cause was and what was the most probable origin of the materiel used.

As far as Syria is concerned, Porton Down, Fort Detrick, and, I believe, the OPCW, identified the use of Sarin, beyond any reasonable doubt, in several separate attacks. I'm not concerned with who committed the attacks, just the things we have a high confidence in knowing to be true. The primary known factors are that Sarin was used in several attacks, that some of the delivery rockets were confirmed, independently, as being of a Russian type that the Syrian government were known to possess and that Syria had a well-developed chemical weapons programme. It has since declared that it has disposed of all remaining declared stocks of chemical agents. Whether that is true or not we have no way of knowing.

Journalists are in the business of selling stories, so fairy tales earn them as much, or more, income as actually verifying stories as being true. We've had more false news stories reported than true ones, and it seems that very few, if any, journalists can be trusted. I suspect that often some well-respected journalists are targeted with false stories, that they believe and report.

flash8
25th Mar 2018, 18:13
Well I agree with Stan, it is incredulous that people blindly and meekly accept the official version, much of which seems a highly convenient narrative, especially after previous versions of chemical weapons/events have turned out to be highly bloody suspect if not downright lies.

I disagree with his opinion of VP though, who has been to my mind pretty unbiased, has never come out really on one side or the other and could say "I told you so" whatever way the pendulum swings.

Diplomatic norms have kept us from being nuked since WWII, somebody from the BBC asked a Russian foreign ministry official why she kept referring to the UK as "a nuclear power" and her response was that States must understand their great responsibilities and be aware this isn't just a fanciful game. Somebody should tell that to the shameful BoJo, a huge embarrassment to the UK, making us the laughing stock of the world, only promoted because May was scared to do otherwise, and now she's petrified of intervening whatever he says.

Stan Woolley
25th Mar 2018, 18:29
ournalists are in the business of selling stories, so fairy tales earn them as much, or more, income as actually verifying stories as being true. We've had more false news stories reported than true ones, and it seems that very few, if any, journalists can be trusted. I suspect that often some well-respected journalists are targeted with false stories, that they believe and report.

I don’t think the ones I respect simply listen to stories.

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 18:33
Perhaps you could try re-reading my post and noting what I ACTUALLY wrote, rather than choosing to spin it into something I did not write. My last sentence is key, as it marked a step-change in what had been, prior to that, a covert "shoot to kill" policy. To save you the effort of scrolling up to re-read it properly, here is that last sentence from my earlier post:

Afriad UK policy did not change a jot as a result of ECHR ruling............. official statements or otherwise.

Mike6567
25th Mar 2018, 18:43
While this forum speculates on the details of this incident who, among UK politicians, know the full details?
The Home Secretary, the PM, members of COBRA, the whole Cabinet (including BoJo)?
What about Privy Councillors? Does the Leader of the Oposition know the full details?
I expect if we knew the same as the PM this discussion would be rather different.

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 18:45
That is as of the most recent attack, a few weeks ago. However, the US has stated previously that they do have proof of Sarin use in Syria in other attacks, just as we do: John Kerry: US 'has evidence of Syrian sarin use' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23918889) , which proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Syria has a Sarin production and delivery capability.

Quite why anyone would want to disbelieve all the evidence of nerve agents being used in several attacks in Syria I'm not sure, especially when multiple agencies have confirmed it.

Maybe its just me but I find it strange that US can get supposed samples almost immediately from rebel areas controlled by ISIS and AL Qaeda.

It also refuses to accept any samples from Syrian Government areas where it has been highlighted that Chemical Weapons were used by ISIS and AQ.

https://www.islamicinvitationturkey.com/2018/03/22/militants-left-over-40-tons-of-chemical-weapons-in-syria/
The 40 tons

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/24/syria-rebels-nsa-saudi-prince-assad/

Course the NSA has had some of its deeds found out.

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 18:48
Journalists are in the business of selling stories, so fairy tales earn them as much, or more, income as actually verifying stories as being true. We've had more false news stories reported than true ones, and it seems that very few, if any, journalists can be trusted. I suspect that often some well-respected journalists are targeted with false stories, that they believe and report.

Quite a few journalists serve 2 masters........... the ones who publish their stores and the intelligence services.
On many occasions they are working for both at the same time and its not always those working for the obvious papers either.

flash8
25th Mar 2018, 19:25
The Home Secretary, the PM, members of COBRA, the whole Cabinet (including BoJo)?
What about Privy Councillors? Does the Leader of the Oposition know the full details?

Allegedly a lot of intelligence was held back from Corbyn.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corbyn-not-given-access-to-top-secret-information-qmj55f263

flash8
25th Mar 2018, 20:37
So now reports are emerging that the Father and Daughter had "switched their mobiles off for a critical four hours" on the day they were poisoned.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mobile-phone-sergei-skripal-daughter-12248068

The plot thickens.

To my mind it could be that they didn't turn off their devices, but they were either blocked somehow, or a third-party managed somehow to disable them. Can't automatically assume that if this is true that they themselves had anything to do with it.

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 20:53
So now reports are emerging that the Father and Daughter had "switched their mobiles off for a critical four hours" on the day they were poisoned.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mobile-phone-sergei-skripal-daughter-12248068

The plot thickens.

To my mind it could be that they didn't turn off their devices, but they were either blocked somehow, or a third-party managed somehow to disable them. Can't automatically assume that if this is true that they themselves had anything to do with it.

I turn my mobile off every single time I'm in a restaurant or pub, and have done for years, just like I turned it off when I walked into the Salisbury Playhouse last night.

Some pubs and restaurants here have signs asking people to turn them off, including my local pub, which has a big sign above the bar that says "if you wish to smoke or use a mobile phone, please go outside"

What on earth is so conspiratorial about this, even if it's true (and coming from the Mirror I'd have to question it's veracity, anyway).

Why are people trying to read so much into a very nasty attack by seeing conspiracies around every corner?

Is it just because no hard information has been released by the investigators since the OPCW team arrived on site?

ORAC
25th Mar 2018, 20:57
Ooohh! Yet another conspiracy theory....

VP959
25th Mar 2018, 21:02
Allegedly a lot of intelligence was held back from Corbyn.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corbyn-not-given-access-to-top-secret-information-qmj55f263

Not a "lot", some TS material that he was not entitled to see, because he was not read into the compartment, was withheld.

Privy Councillors are entitled to some, but not all, classified information. For example, any compartmented information that was marked, say, UK/US Eyes Only, would not routinely be seen by a Privy Councillor unless both parties (in this case the US and the UK) permitted that Privy Councillor to be read in.

We have no way of knowing how much shared intelligence there is involved in this case. I suspect there is a lot, and that a fair bit of it will bear international caveats.

I once had a dual national working for me (French/English) and we just had to exclude her from being read into any programme that had a specific caveat, unless we had express consent from the other nation. It wasn't a conspiracy, it was just a bloody nuisance at times.

On the other hand, it could all be a terrible conspiracy against Jeremy Corbyn that has been deliberately leaked, in contravention of the OSA, to a newspaper...............

flash8
25th Mar 2018, 21:19
I once had a dual national working for me (French/English) and we just had to exclude her from being read into any programme that had a specific caveat

I understand, as having meetings at DTRA (Defence Threat Reduction Agency) I had entire floors out of bounds merely due to the fact I wasn't a US citizen, which became extremely inconvenient on occasion...

Of course the veracity of this mobile power-off is yet to be determined (especially given the paucity of information released) but it can't be discounted it wasn't a factor.


On the other hand, it could all be a terrible conspiracy against Jeremy Corbyn that has been deliberately leaked, in contravention of the OSA, to a newspaper...............


Nothing surprises me nowadays, and shouldn't surprise any of us.

layman
25th Mar 2018, 21:36
Not directly relevant but if anyone is relying on John Pilger as a source of reliable information then I'd suggest you should counterbalance his views with someone like Steve Bannon.
Personally I largely ignore the utterances of both as being stubbornly one-sided in their interpretation of any event.

KelvinD
25th Mar 2018, 21:53
I had entire floors out of bounds merely due to the fact I wasn't a US citizen
I had an incident in Camp Doha, Kuwait post Gulf War 1. I was there to commission a newly installed radio system which was actually a Kuwait Air Force system, with the Yanks hanging on to a portion of it. I was shown into what turned out to be the office of the General in charge. He appeared a minute or two after me and immediately questioned me as to who I was and said because I was not an American, I would have to leave. When I replied "OK. Call and let me know when you feel like having this radio system up and running", there was an immediate about turn!

Ogre
25th Mar 2018, 22:16
Allegedly a lot of intelligence was held back from Corbyn.


That could be taken the wrong way....

racedo
25th Mar 2018, 22:38
Not directly relevant but if anyone is relying on John Pilger as a source of reliable information ..

I first remember John Pilger talking about East Timor and what was happening there. Nobody listening but HMG kept repeating assurances that UK arms were not being used there despite clear evidence again and again.

Over the years I have seen and read lots of what he has written............. little of it wrong.

He doesn't do puff pieces on regimes with special access to higher ups with material worthy of Josef Gobells like some of the BBC people.

layman
26th Mar 2018, 05:57
racedo: rather than distract from the discussion on the Skripals, perhaps there should be a separate discussion about Pilger, and possibly journalism in general?

Over the years I have seen and read lots of what he [Pilger] has written............. little of it wrong.

Just to pick a couple of Pilgers' statements:

Pilger: "Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor."

I think many would tend to disagree with this ...

Pilger: "Al-Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan were kindergartens compared with the world’s leading university of terrorism at Fort Benning in Georgia."

Certainly not saints but, worse than the Taliban?

In addition Pilger is not above using falsely attributed quotes e.g.:

“"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population,” said Israel’s founding prime minister, David Ben-Gurion."

From more reliable sources than Pilger, this was not a statement by Ben-Gurion, but was generated on an "anti-Israeli" web site.

regards
layman

Andy_S
26th Mar 2018, 11:42
Russian trolls attempted to manipulate view of Salisbury poisoning:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/26/russian-trolls-attempted-manipulate-view-salisbury-poisoning/

BruisedCrab
26th Mar 2018, 12:02
Hardly news to Jet Blast. I kinda enjoy having them around - a bit like the pet stone you had as a kid.


And just as thick.

flash8
26th Mar 2018, 12:29
Hardly news to Jet Blast. I kinda enjoy having them around - a bit like the pet stone you had as a kid.

Problem is BruisedCrab most of 'em have been around JB far longer than you.

BruisedCrab
26th Mar 2018, 12:45
Longer than 1999? I’m sure they have.

BruisedCrab
26th Mar 2018, 15:10
Our Putin-supporting members have gone very quiet. Are you all having to pack up your laptops? 😎

ORAC
26th Mar 2018, 16:38
Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43545565)

The United States and its European allies are expelling dozens of Russian diplomats in a co-ordinated response to the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the UK. It is said to be the largest collective expulsion of Russian intelligence officers in history.....

Russia vowed to retaliate to the "provocative gesture". The Russian foreign ministry said the moves demonstrated a continuation of a "confrontational path". "It goes without saying that this unfriendly act by this group of countries will not go without notice and we will react to it," its statement said......

Who is expelling diplomats?

The UK announced it was expelling 23 Russian diplomats earlier this month.
Various countries announced they were making the same move in solidarity on Monday. These are:

US: 60 diplomats
EU countries: France (4); Germany (4); Poland (4); Czech Republic (3); Lithuania (3); Denmark (2); Netherlands (2); Italy (2); Estonia (1); Croatia (1); Finland (1); Latvia (1); Romania (1); Sweden (1)
Ukraine: 13
Canada: 4
Albania: 2

President of the European Council Donald Tusk said 14 EU states had decided to expel Russian diplomats as a direct result of a meeting, held last week, about the Salisbury poisoning. "Additional measures, including further expulsions within this common EU framework are not to be excluded in the coming days and weeks," he said.....

The US is expelling 48 envoys at the Russian embassy in Washington and 12 more at the UN in New York. It will also order the closure of the Russian consulate in Seattle.......

Jack D
26th Mar 2018, 17:07
The bots are quiet ...

sitigeltfel
26th Mar 2018, 17:17
A Russkie mouthpiece on Sky is claiming that it is insensitive of the West to expel diplomats while they are mourning the deaths of the victims of the shopping centre fire.

:ugh:

Stan Woolley
26th Mar 2018, 17:32
The bots are quiet ...

We’re waiting until the adults arrive. :p

pineridge
26th Mar 2018, 17:39
Norway 1. Just thought I would mention it.

VP959
26th Mar 2018, 17:40
Given the scale of the diplomatic reaction from other states, including states that are not particularly close friends of the UK, it looks very much as if there has been some serious sharing of intelligence about this attack that has not been released into the public domain.

Something has convinced all these states to take this action, as I doubt many of them would have been so bold if they were just reacting to what we've been told publicly. Some states I can see might well use any good excuse to expel Russian diplomats; Ukraine for example, others may have an engrained dislike of Russia, like Poland, that may have influenced their decision, but it's hard to see why countries like Denmark, Germany, France, The Netherlands, Italy, Albania or Canada or some of the others would act this way, unless they had harder evidence than we have been privy to, isn't it?

The UK seems to have little political clout with most of the nations involved that don't have gripes of their own about Russia, so it's hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that there may well be some far more definitive evidence about the nature and origin of this attack than we've been privy too.

I'm particularly surprised by the reaction of the European Council - they are not exactly our "best mates" at the moment, are they?

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 17:54
racedo: rather than distract from the discussion on the Skripals, perhaps there should be a separate discussion about Pilger, and possibly journalism in general?



Just to pick a couple of Pilgers' statements:

Pilger: "Under Hugo Chávez, Venezuela is the first major oil producer to use its oil revenue to liberate the poor."

I think many would tend to disagree with this ...



That is what he set out to do



Pilger: "Al-Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan were kindergartens compared with the world’s leading university of terrorism at Fort Benning in Georgia."

Certainly not saints but, worse than the Taliban?


If you in Central and South America and seeking land rights or union rights and family slaughtered by a death squad trained in Georgia what would be views ?

Rich got richer and poor starved.

Slaughter of US nuns in El Salvador was by a US trained death squad.

Nobody else highlighting widescale slaughter of people seeking basic rights in Western supported countrys yet same countrys say nothing about Saudi's / Qataris / Bahrainians action on own population.

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 17:58
Given the scale of the diplomatic reaction from other states, including states that are not particularly close friends of the UK, it looks very much as if there has been some serious sharing of intelligence about this attack that has not been released into the public domain.

Hardly.................. a word from US ambassador and others requesting a response even with zero evidence in return for a furure concsession or payback.

UK will not be putting that intelligence out there as once its out it will be in media in a couple of days.

flash8
26th Mar 2018, 18:06
A Russkie mouthpiece on Sky is claiming that it is insensitive of the West to expel diplomats while they are mourning the deaths of the victims of the shopping centre fire.

Nothing to do with Russian bias, this is a severe tragedy in Russia and has upset many people (very big on news), other things can wait. These people including children were truly innocent and have nothing to do with politicians games. The Kicking should have stopped at least for a few days.

It seems all diplomatic norms are being disregarded on the Western side and personally I am not sure what the real agenda is, but believe me, it will materialize soon.

Yes I live here, and that puts me in a reasonable position to judge sentiment.

VP959
26th Mar 2018, 18:07
Hardly.................. a word from US ambassador and others requesting a response even with zero evidence in return for a furure concsession or payback.

Do you have any evidence to support that statement?

It seems very unlikely to me that so many EU states would do a damned thing to "help" the UK, even with pressure from the US. I'd go so far as to suggest that pressure from the US would make some of the states involved do the opposite.


UK will not be putting that intelligence out there as once its out it will be in media in a couple of days.

I agree, but I'm still surprised that the information has been shared, yet hasn't yet been leaked. Leaks generally arise from people who feel strongly that information should be made public, for what they believe to be the public good.

Jack D
26th Mar 2018, 18:37
Probably no need to retract the perceived political insults then..

We’ve had every sort of conspiracy mooted here with suggested perpetrators from several countries .
A few chemists who seem to have good knowledge regarding various nerve agents and the workings of Porton Down have contributed, those that wanted more information and evidence made public before anyserious accusations were made, a very valid point in normal situations. This is not run of the mill nor is it normal .
The evidence is there and appears to be conclusive .. the wheels of intelligence gathering can turn quickly .. evidence will be made public, if you want to call it “ spin “ go ahead, entirely your right, you won’t be punished or worse, nor poisoned should you choose to make a new life in another country

galaxy flyer
26th Mar 2018, 21:42
Nothing to do with Russian bias, this is a severe tragedy in Russia and has upset many people (very big on news), other things can wait. These people including children were truly innocent and have nothing to do with politicians games. The Kicking should have stopped at least for a few days.

It seems all diplomatic norms are being disregarded on the Western side and personally I am not sure what the real agenda is, but believe me, it will materialize soon.

Yes I live here, and that puts me in a reasonable position to judge sentiment.

Are you a Russian internet bot?

GF

Lonewolf_50
26th Mar 2018, 21:52
Are you a Russian internet bot?

GF Based on his posting history (in my recollection over the past 8 years) on PPRuNe ... I don't think so. The regurgitator of whataboutism and RT style talking points is cited as being in Darkest Surrey.

galaxy flyer
26th Mar 2018, 22:00
racedo,

The 70s called, they want your rage back.

GF

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 22:01
Do you have any evidence to support that statement?


Nordstream Sud..................... Bulgarians and Romania signed up to it.
Obama sent McCain who warned Bulgaria of consequences of signing up to it would be reduction in US aid and support.
Bulgaria reluctantly had a rethink.


It seems very unlikely to me that so many EU states would do a damned thing to "help" the UK, even with pressure from the US. I'd go so far as to suggest that pressure from the US would make some of the states involved do the opposite.


Lots of these states are NATO states.........



I agree, but I'm still surprised that the information has been shared, yet hasn't yet been leaked. Leaks generally arise from people who feel strongly that information should be made public, for what they believe to be the public good.

Info not been shared as hell even Tories don't speak in unison so why would you expect 12 other countrys to do so.

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 22:12
racedo,

The 70s called, they want your rage back.

GF

I don't want someone's kids to die because they told they are "Serving their country" because asswipe politicians are playing political games.

Hasn't Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan Iraq, Libya, Syria and lots of other countries taught you anything.

This is nothing to do with an expendable Russian who was a traitor, US / UK have no love of that either............... just ask Aldrich Ames.

This is to do with Energy and China and Russia doing their deals not in US $.

Difference here is Russia and China not going to sit back.

Why would Russia trust the West when 3 times in last Century it was invaded and millions died............... judge the West by its own history.

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 22:22
Based on his posting history (in my recollection over the past 8 years) on PPRuNe ... I don't think so. The regurgitator of whataboutism and RT style talking points is cited as being in Darkest Surrey.

Would you want your kids and their friends sent to die in a war because of lies ?

WW1 started from nations miscalculations and lask of trust............. this sound familiar.

Spies have 2 jobs, finding information and also passing it on.................
Cold War - USSR thinking NATO getting ready to bomb but half a dozen guys go by the key bases and say nothing happening, its business as usual, no lockdown, no extra security as nukes being loaded.
More powerful than assurances of Governments.................. and same happened in East Germany when NATO geared up for invasion when Brixmis and others saw nope the guys out heading to get pissed on Saturday night not heading for Bonn in tanks.

Mistrust and name calling will cause an incident that nobody will believe was an accident.

racedo
26th Mar 2018, 22:31
Thanks for re-confirming your allegiance comrade.

Asshat



I have had lots of discussion on here with posters whom I disagree with now, often agreed with them, often not.

Have seen no need to engage in personal abuse so kind of curious why you here.

Aside from personal abuse of posters putting forward a view what exactly are you offering on here ?

Are you just here to shut down people's views because you dislike what they say ?

flash8
26th Mar 2018, 22:40
GF since you are referring to me as a Russian bot you should know I once held a US security clearance and worked for your illustrious government as a contractor, and in just this area, security of pathogen storage and in the CIS countries based out of Moscow... this was my second career... for some years after departing aviation.

Just looking for the truth, that breaks no laws I assume.

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 01:33
Nothing to do with Russian bias, this is a severe tragedy in Russia and has upset many people (very big on news), other things can wait. These people including children were truly innocent and have nothing to do with politicians games. The Kicking should have stopped at least for a few days.

It seems all diplomatic norms are being disregarded on the Western side and personally I am not sure what the real agenda is, but believe me, it will materialize soon.

Yes I live here, and that puts me in a reasonable position to judge sentiment.

Are you serious?
A chemical weapon used in a European country has the potential to start a world war, I think you need to drag your head out of the snow or Putins Axxxx!

The fire is a tragedy, and my condolences to the people effected, however these are 2 complete different stories with great difference, the fire is not going to threaten world peace.

I would like to remind ALL RUSSIANS, about MH17, what about ALL THOSE INNOCENT VICTIMS?

Putins cronies and Russia have to long been allowed to get away with crimes, that if it had not been Russia, they would have been bombed back to the stone ages.

Disgraceful comment by you to bring the fire victims into this.
Remember MH17, remember Trotsky , remember Litvenshenko, it’s not the Russian people’s fault that they are being lied to by their regime.

Ask yourself why all Polish, Latvian, Lithuania, Estonians, Hungarians, Romania hate and detest Putins Russia?
I have loads of Russian friends, with few exceptions they ALL HATE Putin.

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 01:48
I don't want someone's kids to die because they told they are "Serving their country" because asswipe politicians are playing political games.

Hasn't Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan Iraq, Libya, Syria and lots of other countries taught you anything.

This is nothing to do with an expendable Russian who was a traitor, US / UK have no love of that either............... just ask Aldrich Ames.

This is to do with Energy and China and Russia doing their deals not in US $.

Difference here is Russia and China not going to sit back.

Why would Russia trust the West when 3 times in last Century it was invaded and millions died............... judge the West by its own history.

Rich talk, considering Stalin was happy to make a deal with Hitler.
The Katyn massacre in 1940 of Polish officers, executed own soldiers who had been prisoners of war during WW2.

Made sure that ANY serious opponents either gets killed or unable to run against him for president, sure Russia is the pilar of the world, NOT

flash8
27th Mar 2018, 01:53
Are you serious?
A chemical weapon used in a European country has the potential to start a world war, I think you need to drag your head out of the snow or Putins Axxxx!

And tried by a Kangaroo court no less, with evidence that even Russia would like the world to see, unlike you I have worked *directly* in the area and am also not easily persuaded,


Disgraceful comment by you to bring the fire victims into this.

I was merely replying to a comment on the subject as you would have seen if you had bothered to have checked.

I would like to remind ALL RUSSIANS, about MH17, what about ALL THOSE INNOCENT VICTIMS?

Ask the Ukrainians, for they had the most to gain, and shouldn't be discounted.

Ask yourself why all Polish, Latvian, Lithuania, Estonians, Hungarians, Romania hate and detest Putins Russia?

Simply completely untrue. Possibly their governments have other objectives, but most people live quite happly alongside Russians (Latvia I believe is 30% Russian). Some of the old folk dislike Russia (and probably with good reason I admit).



I have loads of Russian friends, with few exceptions they ALL HATE Putin.

Your speaking to the wrong person, lived here in Moscow 15 years (20 most of the time since '99), speak Russian and meet more Russian people in a day than you are ever likely to meet in a lifetime. Most people support him. Not that you'd believe that from the Western media though.

Unlike others insults don't worry me unduly, put it this way I won't lose any sleep over them, however the truth is a different matter, and that is what we should all be asking, and that may lose me sleep.

Swallowing the Western narrative to me shows such naivety as to be incredulous.

MG23
27th Mar 2018, 01:54
A chemical weapon used in a European country has the potential to start a world war, I think you need to drag your head out of the snow or Putins Axxxx!

In case you missed it, the demise of the West began with a loser murdering a minor European nobleman in Serbia.

No-one expected that to end the way it did, either.

One bullet destroyed the British Empire, and led to the rise of Communism, the Holocaust, and 9/11.

But, hey. 'The Russians are under my bed!'

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 03:51
And tried by a Kangaroo court no less, with evidence that even Russia would like the world to see, unlike you I have worked *directly* in the area and am also not easily persuaded,




I was merely replying to a comment on the subject as you would have seen if you had bothered to have checked.



Ask the Ukrainians, for they had the most to gain, and shouldn't be discounted.



Simply completely untrue. Possibly their governments have other objectives, but most people live quite happly alongside Russians (Latvia I believe is 30% Russian). Some of the old folk dislike Russia (and probably with good reason I admit).




Your speaking to the wrong person, lived here in Moscow 15 years (20 most of the time since '99), speak Russian and meet more Russian people in a day than you are ever likely to meet in a lifetime. Most people support him. Not that you'd believe that from the Western media though.

Unlike others insults don't worry me unduly, put it this way I won't lose any sleep over them, however the truth is a different matter, and that is what we should all be asking, and that may lose me sleep.

Swallowing the Western narrative to me shows such naivety as to be incredulous.

I have worked with hundreds of Russians in my life, from early 90’s until present.
I have lived and visited most of the East European countries I mentioned.

All of those countries loathe Putin and the current Russian regime, and live in fear of one day again being invaded by Russian armies, who come to protect remaining Russian populations in these countries.

After the fall of the Sovietunion, many Russians living in these countries got treated badly, they was innocent victims of their countries gruesome politics.

Why do you think countries like Latvia, Lithuania constantly make sure US Air Force are invited to their airspace for exercises?

When Crimea was occupied these countries lived in fear if they would be next.
Ask any Polish or Hungarian what they think about Russia? There is no love lost, and it’s very understandable, the Soviet f..... ALL EAST EUROPE.

I am not talking about hate for ordinary Russian people, who unless they have a good job in Moscow live in fairly simple and poor conditions.

The popularity of Putin in Russia is obvious, when you have NO CREDIBLE opposition, and ALL NEWS , 99% of it is state controlled.

What about the killing of Nemtov?

I worked with Russians, that was employed by the government, young people, they ALWAYS HAD TO HAVE POLITICAL MENTORS with them, that would make sure they would not get any funny ideas from the West, this was in the 90’s. The Chinese had the same, when I worked with them.
I was in a special profession where I got to work with a selected elite of sports performers , that had special privileges and was allowed to travel around the world , but with strict limitations in case they would get ideas to defect.

So don’t come and tell me Russia is all Rosie and free.

The KGB didn’t suddenly disappear, and it shows that Russia’s greatest politician is almost forgotten among Russian people, and his name was Gorbatsjov. Do you remember him?

You must be the biggest IDIOT OF ALL, if you think East Europe love Putins Russian regime, that’s why they ran so fast to join NATO, to get out of the grips of the Russian Bear.

You now have a dictator in Putin, who has manipulated and changed the election system, so he can sit in power forever, just like good old f.ing Stalin.

Why you think so many Russians leave Russia to live in Europe or USA? Because life is so great in Russia?

I know Russian girls, girlfriends of oligarchs , living all over Europe, and they try everything they can to get European passports , as they never want to return to Russia.
We are talking of people from all over the country, not just Moscow.
Their oligarch boyfriends paying them €10.000 a month, just to be their personal pet when they come to visit.

These oligarchs already have mansions with wives and children in addition, I am not just talking of thinks I read, I have actually met these people and seen them in REAL LIFE.

So please don’t come and lecture me where I get my opinions from.

Putin would like nothing more than to make Russia great again, and get all the old countries back as part of their nation, that’s Putins wet dream.

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 04:01
In case you missed it, the demise of the West began with a loser murdering a minor European nobleman in Serbia.

No-one expected that to end the way it did, either.

One bullet destroyed the British Empire, and led to the rise of Communism, the Holocaust, and 9/11.

But, hey. 'The Russians are under my bed!'

First who cares about the British Empire?
And are you really going back to WW1?

Demise of the West you say, what about the starvation of the Sovietunion? The Extermination by Stalin?

I am sorry but, for me it seems the West is still going strong.

If you look around Russia, outside of the rich part of Moscow, there is another world of people living in fairly simple conditions in large parts of the country.

Let’s try to remember what brought the Sovietunion empire to its knees?
Lack of food, trying to keep up in the nuclear race with the USA, which bankrupted the old USSR in the end.

Lies about Chernobyl, how many of you remember this?
How they tried to lie to the world, when they was having radioactive rain in Sweden that had a radiaton level that was 1000 times the normal.

Lying is in the DNA of Russian politics.

Trim Stab
27th Mar 2018, 05:35
Swallowing the Western narrative to me shows such naivety as to be incredulous.

I'm with you on that. I'm disgusted and worried that so much damage has been done to international relations based on some very flimsy circumstantial evidence.

The agent used was definitely of soviet origin - that I believe. But I have not seen the slightest evidence that the Russian government ordered its use. Nor does it seem very likely. Skripal had been thoroughly debriefed by western intelligence agents and was of absolutely no further danger whatsoever to Russian interests. Russia just had absolutely no incentive whatsoever to carry out an assassination like this.

The British intelligence agencies don't exactly have a blemish free record on providing accurate intelligence and I just don't believe the claims by British Government. Absolutely scandalous to whip this up into such a major incident.

ORAC
27th Mar 2018, 06:28
Australia has announced it is expelling two Russian diplomats in response to the recent nerve agent attack on a former Russian military intelligence officer and his daughter in Britain.

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said in a statement the two diplomats were undeclared intelligence officers and have been given seven days to leave Australia. Turnbull slammed the attack as “the first offensive use of chemical weapons in Europe since World War II.” He also called it “reckless and deliberate” conduct by Russia that harms global security and violates rules against the use of chemical weapons.

ORAC
27th Mar 2018, 07:18
Ireland is likely to join more than 20 countries in expelling Russian diplomats following the nerve agent attack on a former spy and his daughter in Britain. It is understood that the Irish government is considering expelling at least one Russian diplomat after analysing intelligence given to the taoiseach and tánaiste.

Simon Coveney, the foreign affairs minister, is to give an assessment on the activities of Russian diplomats who may be operating as intelligence agents to the cabinet today. He will brief ministers this morning before a final decision is made. A source said that the number of expulsions from Ireland will be on a par with that of other countries of similar size. The government is also planning to brief Fianna Fáil on the move, in line with the confidence and supply deal of the minority government.......

dsc810
27th Mar 2018, 07:19
Perhaps Putin will retaliate by nationalising all BP assets in Russia.

IMO Putin's annexing of Crimea was driven in part by the West trying to get Ukraine under its sphere of influence and hence a threat long term to Russia's Black Sea port of Sevastopol and its access to the Med.

Andy_S
27th Mar 2018, 08:54
Perhaps Putin will retaliate by nationalising all BP assets in Russia.

Maybe he will.

But think about the signal that would send out to the international community. Basically, any foreign business with assets in Russia risks having them seized, on a political whim. That's hardly going to inspire confidence in doing business in Russia.

I suspect that any such move would be counterproductive.

ORAC
27th Mar 2018, 09:27
But think about the signal that would send out to the international community. Basically, any foreign business with assets in Russia risks having them seized, on a political whim. That's hardly going to inspire confidence in doing business in Russia. That boat has already sailed......

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 09:42
I do believe that a boycott by European nations should be seriously considered of the upcoming World Cup.

This is a country who have on systematic scale run a government doping program.
And they nearly got away with it.

Unfortunately I don’t believe FIFA have the balls themselvs to pull the World Cup at this stage.

However such withdrawal which might also include more countries from the world, would send massive signal towards Kremlin.
It would not be difficult to rearrange the World Cup to be played all over Europe.

It would send a stronger signal than expelling diplomats in my opinion.

sitigeltfel
27th Mar 2018, 09:56
I do believe that a boycott by European nations should be seriously considered of the upcoming World Cup.


Iceland qualified for the 2018 World Cup, the first time in its history.

However, their government have announced that there will be no government or diplomatic representation at the event, in protest against the nerve agent attack.

Fitter2
27th Mar 2018, 09:58
Quote:
Are you serious? A chemical weapon used in a European country has the potential to start a world war, I think you need to drag your head out of the snow or Putins Axxxx!
And tried by a Kangaroo court no less, with evidence that even Russia would like the world to see, unlike you I have worked *directly* in the area and am also not easily persuaded,


Quote:
Disgraceful comment by you to bring the fire victims into this.
I was merely replying to a comment on the subject as you would have seen if you had bothered to have checked.

Quote:
I would like to remind ALL RUSSIANS, about MH17, what about ALL THOSE INNOCENT VICTIMS?
Ask the Ukrainians, for they had the most to gain, and shouldn't be discounted.

Quote:
Ask yourself why all Polish, Latvian, Lithuania, Estonians, Hungarians, Romania hate and detest Putins Russia?
Simply completely untrue. Possibly their governments have other objectives, but most people live quite happly alongside Russians (Latvia I believe is 30% Russian). Some of the old folk dislike Russia (and probably with good reason I admit).

The really worrying thing is that you may actually believe this rubbish.

glad rag
27th Mar 2018, 10:07
Perhaps Putin will retaliate by nationalising all BP assets in Russia.

IMO Putin's annexing of Crimea was driven in part by the EU trying to get Ukraine under its sphere of influence and hence a threat long term to Russia's Black Sea port of Sevastopol and its access to the Med.


Edited For Accuracy ....

BusAirDriver
27th Mar 2018, 10:08
You call it rubbish, tell that to the Captain I used to fly with, who told me about his grandfather being sent to Gulag in Siberia to NEVER been seen again.

His crime, his political views.

As I said before , I know many Russians, worked with many Russians, and most of them who live outside Russia are not afraid to say what they think of Putin.

You living in cuckoo land


The really worrying thing is that you may actually believe this rubbish.

galaxy flyer
27th Mar 2018, 13:55
My father’s cousin lost his father and three brothers plus innumerable male friends from his home outside Ternopol to the Russians. All lost in the gulag. The Russians can be fine people, I’ve usually liked being in Russia on a personal level. The government, however, is a criminal enterprise.

GF