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Stan Woolley
8th Jan 2019, 16:38
Sallytroll returns

Without a counterpoint to your valid post, but then that’s what trolls do, I suppose. :rolleyes:

Fitter2
8th Jan 2019, 16:39
I'm impressed at the ability of MI6 to persuade 2 Russian agents to visit Salisbury the day before the attempted assasination of the Skripals took place.

Even more impressed that Moskow trolls think this is worth pursuing.

Go back to the MH17 nonsense, plausible alternative explanations for the evidence are marginally more convincing to the gullible.

Sallyann1234
8th Jan 2019, 16:47
I'm impressed at the ability of MI6 to persuade 2 Russian agents to visit Salisbury the day before the attempted assasination of the Skripals took place.

Not only that, but MI6 then persuaded the two agents to appear on RT and look incredibly foolish. Brilliant work!

VP959
8th Jan 2019, 16:56
I'm impressed at the ability of MI6 to persuade 2 Russian agents to visit Salisbury the day before the attempted assasination of the Skripals took place.

Even more impressed that Moskow trolls think this is worth pursuing.

Go back to the MH17 nonsense, plausible alternative explanations for the evidence are marginally more convincing to the gullible.

The problem with obvious claptrap, like that article, is that in their desire to get their point across the author has omitted to mention inconvenient facts and hasn't even bothered to do some pretty basic fact-checking. It's pointless picking through all the holes in stories like this, though, as those who desperately want there to be a complex conspiracy behind any event will always cling to that belief, no matter what.

I'm puzzled by the need to take the roof off the Skripal house, though. It's hard to see how any contamination could have found its way into the roof space, unless it was carried there by someone. It might be that dismantling and rebuilding the whole house is being done as a precautionary measure, more to try and remove any stigma associated with it, rather than as a genuine safety issue.

racedo
8th Jan 2019, 17:04
The problem with obvious claptrap, like that article, is that in their desire to get their point across the author has omitted to mention inconvenient facts and hasn't even bothered to do some pretty basic fact-checking. It's pointless picking through all the holes in stories like this, though, as those who desperately want there to be a complex conspiracy behind any event will always cling to that belief, no matter what.

I'm puzzled by the need to take the roof off the Skripal house, though. It's hard to see how any contamination could have found its way into the roof space, unless it was carried there by someone. It might be that dismantling and rebuilding the whole house is being done as a precautionary measure, more to try and remove any stigma associated with it, rather than as a genuine safety issue.

Organisation concerned and mentioned is real and has openly boasted of what it was doing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/foreign-office-alan-duncan-denies-state-funds-went-to-twitter-account-criticising-labour-integrity-initiative

Sallyann1234
8th Jan 2019, 17:16
The problem with obvious claptrap, like that article, is that in their desire to get their point across the author has omitted to mention inconvenient facts and hasn't even bothered to do some pretty basic fact-checking. It's pointless picking through all the holes in stories like this, though, as those who desperately want there. to be a complex conspiracy behind any event will always cling to that belief, no matter what.

I'm puzzled by the need to take the roof off the Skripal house, though. It's hard to see how any contamination could have found its way into the roof space, unless it was carried there by someone. It might be that dismantling and rebuilding the whole house is being done as a precautionary measure, more to try and remove any stigma associated with it, rather than as a genuine safety issue.
I would have thought that a thorough search of the house would include the loft space, perhaps at the time unwittingly carrying the contamination up there.
Is the same thing happening to the PC's house?

VP959
8th Jan 2019, 17:21
I would have thought that a thorough search of the house would include the loft space, perhaps at the time unwittingly carrying the contamination up there.
Is the same thing happening to the PC's house?

Good point. If the forensics people gave the place a thorough going over, as I guess they would have had to, then the chance of spreading the stuff around all over the inside of the house would have been pretty high.

VP959
8th Jan 2019, 17:25
Organisation concerned and mentioned is real and has openly boasted of what it was doing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/foreign-office-alan-duncan-denies-state-funds-went-to-twitter-account-criticising-labour-integrity-initiative

I've not said the organisation didn't exist, just that there are some fundamental errors in the article linked to earlier that should have been fact-checked. Not bothering to fact-check simple stuff, along with ignoring anything that didn't fit the conspiracy theory being put forward, undermines the credibility of both the article and the author.

racedo
8th Jan 2019, 20:10
I've not said the organisation didn't exist, just that there are some fundamental errors in the article linked to earlier that should have been fact-checked. Not bothering to fact-check simple stuff, along with ignoring anything that didn't fit the conspiracy theory being put forward, undermines the credibility of both the article and the author.

Have little concern about the author, issue a bit more fundamental in a UK Govt sponsored outfit peddling stories about a UK opposition leader.

Nice they telling us of all the Journo's that are in their pay though.

atakacs
21st Jan 2019, 20:30
Just when we thought this whole story could not get any weirder...

https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2782928/exclusive-teenage-girl-describes-moment-she-found-collapsed-skripals/

Incidentally we havent heard anything from Sergei or Yulia for a long, long time. No to mention Mark Urban's book. And did any half decent journalist tried to investigate this Pablo Miller fellow ?

flash8
21st Jan 2019, 20:50
Not bothering to fact-check simple stuffIndeed, but since when in the last decade have the press even bothered to do any due diligence? They usually print whatever the government states without question, to do otherwise you would be seen as subversive, toe the line or you'll be blacklisted in the future. Before anyone states I'm boosting up my anti-UK pro-Russian credentials here, the same goes for Russia. Arguably in fact at the moment one of the few places that genuinely question the government is the US.

Just when we thought this whole story could not get any weirder...Believe me, we haven't heard the half of it, twisted alleys, dead ends, red herrings, obvious discrepancies.. this story couldn't have been more dubious if it tried

Incidentally we havent heard anything from Sergei or Yulia for a long, long time.And we never will.

No to mention Mark Urban's book. And did any half decent journalist tried to investigate this Pablo Miller fellow ?Ahha, half decent, that is stretching things here, they are in short supply.

KelvinD
21st Jan 2019, 23:02
That's interesting; this girl and her mother had very, very close contact with the Skripals yet neither of them appear to have been adversely affected?

A_Van
22nd Jan 2019, 04:38
That's interesting; this girl and her mother had very, very close contact with the Skripals yet neither of them appear to have been adversely affected?

Indeed.
I also find it interesting that the girl's mother, who was around "by chance", is an army Lt-Col. concerned with biological and chemical stuff. Additional signs that the whole scenario was staged.

currawong
22nd Jan 2019, 05:08
This thread is the Fulda Gap of the internet.:}

VP959
22nd Jan 2019, 08:21
That's interesting; this girl and her mother had very, very close contact with the Skripals yet neither of them appear to have been adversely affected?

Not really that odd at all. If the victims were contaminated on their hands (which seems most probable as the stuff was on their door handle) then I suspect the stuff may well have contaminated them via transmission from their gloves (it was fairly cold, this was a day or so after the "beast from the east"). That would explain the long delay between them leaving their house (where they were contaminated) and their collapse hours later; they may well have only come into contact with the agent when they took their gloves off and touched the outside of them. The chances are that they may well have worn or washed off the worst of the contamination from their hands (they had been to a pub and restaurant for a couple of hours or so, so it's quite probable they washed their hands at some point). Someone who just puts them in the recovery position may well not end up getting contaminated. We already know that the police and paramedics who attended the scene didn't suffer ill effects either, and they would, presumably, have had more intimate contact with the victims than this young girl.

Indeed.
I also find it interesting that the girl's mother, who was around "by chance", is an army Lt-Col. concerned with biological and chemical stuff. Additional signs that the whole scenario was staged.

Not even slightly surprising. Apart from the couple of thousand people who work at Porton Down that live within spitting distance of Salisbury, there are also a large number of military personnel who specialise in NBRC based at the training centre at Winterbourne Gunner, closer to Salisbury than Porton. At any time over a weekend there's a strong probability of there being some off-duty military personnel around, as the Salisbury Plain area now has (I believe) either the largest army presence of any area in the UK, or pretty close to it, as the army have been expanding bases in the area since the withdrawal of the BAOR. HQ Land Command is only a short distance from Salisbury, too.

jez d
22nd Jan 2019, 12:45
HQ Land Command is only a short distance from Salisbury, too.

Actually, HQ Land Command decamped from Erskine Barracks in Wilton to Andover a while ago, but you are entirely correct in stating that you can't swing a novichok-infused cat in Salisbury without hitting a serving officer. Keeping trying, Trolls, you're sure to hit upon a conspiracy theory at some stage that holds at least one element of credulity...

flash8
22nd Jan 2019, 13:09
The problem is when you invoke the phrase "conspiracy theory" it has negative connotations. Can anyone who argues with the official narrative be termed "conspiracy theorists"?

Personally I feel that the entire episode stinks, journalists have not only not performed due diligence but parrotted the official line verbatim, however I don't think this was due to government pressure (who knows) but more likely a significant fall in journalistic standards the last decade or so.

atakacs
22nd Jan 2019, 14:15
Personally I feel that the entire episode stinks, journalists have not only not performed due diligence but parrotted the official line verbatim, however I don't think this was due to government pressure (who knows) but more likely a significant fall in journalistic standards the last decade or so.

Both are not mutually exclusive...

I accept that there is lots of military personal around. The fact that the Skripals were first attended by the army chief nursing officer is still yet another odd coincidence in this surrealist story. There are so many interesting leads and so little actual journalistic work...

G-CPTN
22nd Jan 2019, 14:27
There are so many interesting leads and so little actual journalistic work...

"Need to know" applies.

Sallyann1234
22nd Jan 2019, 14:57
Life is full of coincidences.

VP959
22nd Jan 2019, 15:18
Both are not mutually exclusive...

I accept that there is lots of military personal around. The fact that the Skripals were first attended by the army chief nursing officer is still yet another odd coincidence in this surrealist story. Theee are so many interesting leads and so little actual journalistic work...

My wife and I are in Salisbury every weekend. She works for the Army Primary Health Care Service. We can pretty much guarantee that we will meet some of her colleagues in town. The place is literally awash with serving personnel.

Actually, HQ Land Command decamped from Erskine Barracks in Wilton to Andover a while ago, but you are entirely correct in stating that you can't swing a novichok-infused cat in Salisbury without hitting a serving officer. Keeping trying, Trolls, you're sure to hit upon a conspiracy theory at some stage that holds at least one element of credulity...

Given that I've been driving past the old HQ Land site twice a day for the past five years, which is now a large housing development, and worked with the project manager for the move from Wilton to Andover before I retired in 2010, and that I worked at Andover for a short time around 18 years ago, I was just about aware that Land had moved... HQ Land at Andover is only about 16 miles away from the city centre, not much further away than it was when it was at Wilton 10 years or so ago.

BehindBlueEyes
24th Jan 2019, 09:08
Disappointing and rather pathetic humour from the Russians:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-46972720

A_Van
24th Jan 2019, 14:06
Disappointing and rather pathetic humour from the Russians:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-46972720

Agree. What a shame. Some idiot who developed such a "game". Could not find who is that "Mikhail Bober" even through Russian sites. Should be a kid from a peanut gallery...

annakm
24th Jan 2019, 18:15
Disappointing and rather pathetic humour from the Russians:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-46972720

”Hey Igor! Let’s make a game about murdering an innocent woman and trying to murder three others!”

WingNut60
25th Jan 2019, 00:05
Disappointing and rather pathetic humour from the Russians a Russian some Russians

Let's not tar an entire nation, eh?

weemonkey
25th Jan 2019, 00:07
Agree. What a shame. Some idiot who developed such a "game". Could not find who is that "Mikhail Bober" even through Russian sites. Should be a kid from a peanut gallery...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/620x372/3500_ff1595b681515fc9283e9090a9ebab77a6277775.jpg
ivan, no one believes you.

A_Van
25th Jan 2019, 05:57
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/620x372/3500_ff1595b681515fc9283e9090a9ebab77a6277775.jpg
ivan, no one believes you.

Tommy, please don't speak on behalf of all, OK?

Sallyann1234
25th Jan 2019, 08:25
Tommy, please don't speak on behalf of all, OK?
If you mean the wee one, he/she certainly doesn't.

TEEEJ
26th Jan 2019, 03:40
Agree. What a shame. Some idiot who developed such a "game". Could not find who is that "Mikhail Bober" even through Russian sites. Should be a kid from a peanut gallery...

Mikhail Bober was interviewed by Russia Today's video news agency. The guy with the glasses is Nikita Filipov also from the toy company.

s9jyTIvTROU

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2019, 17:33
For anyone who doesn't recognise the image, we appear to be talking about MH17.

No, I don't know why either.

racedo
26th Jan 2019, 22:03
For anyone who doesn't recognise the image, we appear to be talking about MH17.

No, I don't know why either.

II / IFS sent the emails out to their clusters.

ORAC
14th Feb 2019, 16:22
.........

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/14/third-suspect-in-skripal-poisoning-identified-as-denis-sergeev-high-ranking-gru-officer/

Third Suspect in Skripal Poisoning Identified as Denis Sergeev, High-Ranking GRU Officer

A_Van
14th Feb 2019, 16:55
One more portion of non-sense from paranoid journos (B-cat). They need to take clozapine in horse-dozes instead of talking about novichok.

"Two colonels" seemed not enough for them, now they added a major-general. So, these three were sent to kill an old retired bloke, and could not do the job.

Who will be added next? Maybe the GRU director sitting on top of the Salisbury Cathedral and supervising his thugs :-)

TEEEJ
14th Feb 2019, 17:36
.........

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/14/third-suspect-in-skripal-poisoning-identified-as-denis-sergeev-high-ranking-gru-officer/

Third Suspect in Skripal Poisoning Identified as Denis Sergeev, High-Ranking GRU Officer

Always remember to add 3-2-1 Trolls will appear with much banging of shoes on tables! ;)

flash8
14th Feb 2019, 17:51
Whatever way people would like to think happened in Salisbury I'd strongly advise to view bellingcat with scepticism, one of the (very) few sites that I genuinely believe is an intelligence front (or at least substantially funded). Can't ever see them as a credible source.

atakacs
14th Feb 2019, 18:02
I certainly agree that Belingcat is extremely suspect. That being said they seem to be given access to interresting classified material (in total contradiction with their open source charter, but who cares?). As long as one keep in mind where they sit it remains an interresting source of "information".

DaveReidUK
14th Feb 2019, 18:42
Notably, we have established that in the last two months, Russian authorities have taken the unusual measure of erasing any public records of the existence of Denis Sergeev, as well as of Anatoly Chepiga and Alexander Mishkin, the main two suspects in the Skripal poisoning.

Given that, by definition, public records are readily accessible, it ought to be possible to verify whether that particular statement is true or false, rather that making bald assertions as to whether or not Bellingcat is reliable.

Any volunteers to check that out - perhaps our Russian-resident posters ?

flash8
14th Feb 2019, 18:58
Given that, by definition, public records are readily accessible, it ought to be possible to verify whether that particular statement is true or false, rather that making bald assertions as to whether or not Bellingcat is reliable.

Any volunteers to check that out - perhaps our Russian-resident posters ?

Let me tell you a story, once back in 2004 there was a tragedy in Moscow, Transvaal Water park... collapsed roof killing many children, the news didn't cover the dodgy ownership of the park (but we all knew whom was behind it, rumours swirled around Moscow) and I complained to the Moscow Times.... phoning the editor... and stating I wasn't happy with the coverage. I recall his words to me were "be careful what you dig up, we are!"... enough said.

So back to 2019... if flashy goes poking around these records... he might prod somewhere that pokes back!

A_Van
15th Feb 2019, 04:37
Given that, by definition, public records are readily accessible, it ought to be possible to verify whether that particular statement is true or false, rather that making bald assertions as to whether or not Bellingcat is reliable.

Any volunteers to check that out - perhaps our Russian-resident posters ?

Helas, there is no reliable material to evaluate. What B-cat published was either fake (e.g. even the photos were edited as professional expertise reported) or rumours, official personal data are confidential (as in any country) and thus not publicly available.

As for interviews with various folks, they not reliable either. E.g., an old woman (who saw Chepiga 20 years ago) reportedly said that it was likely him interviewed on RT. But other people said that it was not he because "real Chepiga" was half-bald already 5 years ago, etc., etc.

And in general, journalist level is not serious. They need sensations or work for the customer who set a clear goal (here, to "demonize" Russia by all means).

IMHO, there should be something from Scotland Yard, signed by experts who would put their reputation at stake if they lie, manipulate with facts or draw conclusions based on questionable basis.

Fitter2
15th Feb 2019, 10:54
It seems almost unbelievable that after the GRU incompetence was exposed and they were caught red handed, the Moscow Troll Factory is still desperate to deny reality, until one understands that it is SOP, based ironically on Josef Goebbels' dictum that if one shouts a lie loud and often enough, the gullible will believe it.

flash8
15th Feb 2019, 12:08
It seems almost unbelievable that after the GRU incompetence was exposed and they were caught red handed, the Moscow Troll Factory is still desperate to deny reality, until one understands that it is SOP, based ironically on Josef Goebbels' dictum that if one shouts a lie loud and often enough, the gullible will believe it.
A good rule of thumb is to evaluate who has the most to gain from such an act, this often is the culprit, whether Russia is involved is arguable (folk have their own opinions and are entitled to them). But the whole episode doesn't exactly come across as credible in my opinion, and having worked with GRU Officers on and off for many years (on US Government contracts involving enforcement of bilateral agreements) they are certainly not cut from the same mould as the two comedians alleged to have carried out this act. No, this whole episode stinks to high heaven.

Stan Woolley
15th Feb 2019, 12:15
It seems almost unbelievable that after the GRU incompetence was exposed and they were caught red handed, the Moscow Troll Factory is still desperate to deny reality, until one understands that it is SOP, based ironically on Josef Goebbels' dictum that if one shouts a lie loud and often enough, the gullible will believe it.

Yes Fitter, how right you are.

https://twitter.com/tim_hayward_/status/1096295852396691456?s=21

arketip
15th Feb 2019, 12:21
It seems almost unbelievable that after the GRU incompetence was exposed and they were caught red handed, the Moscow Troll Factory is still desperate to deny reality, until one understands that it is SOP, based ironically on Josef Goebbels' dictum that if one shouts a lie loud and often enough, the gullible will believe it.

Well, I guess they are not much different than you Boris Johnson's trolls, all liking to believe what it suits them

flash8
15th Feb 2019, 16:25
Guardian leader at the moment:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/15/novichok-victim-dawn-sturgess-parents-tell-of-their-anger-and-hurt

Stan and Caroline Sturgess told the Guardian they still had many unanswered questions and called for more clarity from the British government about the poisonings. They lost their daughter, and no matter what beliefs people hold that is an absolute tragedy, and I can sympathise with their viewpoint. Many of us have questions that remain unanswered.
They also spoke passionately about their sense of injustice that Dawn, a mother of three from a very respectable family, was unfairly portrayed as a homeless drug user.They are being very generous, nothing portrayed stands up to any real scrutiny, but well, the narrative spinners surely have their reasons.
But he continued: “I want justice from our own government. What are they hiding? I don’t think they have given us all the facts.”They are hiding the truth, or at least significant components of.

VP959
16th Feb 2019, 09:49
I'm certain the "government", in the form of the security services and police, are hiding a lot about this incident, but I also very strongly suspect that one reason they are not making public all the information they have is because they don't know for sure whether or not it's wholly accurate. I believe that they've released information that they can be sure is accurate, but held back on a lot that they either cannot prove beyond doubt to be true, or that they don't wish to go out into the public domain in case it risks a future prosecution.

The police do the same when investigating any murder; they only release the minimum amount of information prior to any possible trial. I don't believe that this incident is being treated any differently, other than the key fact that it's more sensitive than most, in that it involves foreign nationals from a state that is not wholly trusted by the UK. I know that ordinary Russian citizens may feel that is unfair, but it is a fact that we have seen what are almost certainly Russian state-sponsored, or at least Russian state-condoned, murders on our soil before.

arketip
16th Feb 2019, 10:28
Which countries are wholly trusted by the UK?

US, France, Ukraine,...?

VP959
16th Feb 2019, 10:45
Which countries are wholly trusted by the UK?

US, France, Ukraine,...?

Probably none, if the truth be told...

currawong
17th Feb 2019, 03:14
Of course the authorities know more than they admit to.

Diplomacy springs to mind.

ORAC
17th Feb 2019, 06:23
To have been expected I suppose, based on the health problems of the Russian scientist who suffered accidental exposure.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fears-for-poisoned-mi6-spy-sergei-skripal-after-health-worsens-nbhp7tpxv

Fears for poisoned MI6 spy Sergei Skripal after health worsens

The former MI6 spy who was poisoned in a botched assassination attempt by Russian agents in Salisbury has suffered a deterioration in his health and is being treated by doctors, The Sunday Times can reveal.

Sergei Skripal, 67, who along with his daughter, Yulia, 33, was poisoned with the nerve agent novichok last March, is under medical supervision amid concerns that he is unlikely ever to recover fully from the chemical attack which assaults the nervous system.

The former colonel in the GRU, Russia’s military intelligence agency, and his daughter were in a critical condition when they were admitted to Salisbury District Hospital after the attack. The pair staged a miraculous recovery — Yulia was discharged in April last year and her father was released in May, after two months in hospital. While she was seen in a video looking healthy and talking about her ordeal, he has never been seen in public again.

This weekend toxicology experts said there is no way of predicting novichok’s long-term effects, but studies into other nerve agents have revealed long-term problems associated with memory loss and muscle functionality. “The agent itself would essentially likely be metabolised and removed, but the fingerprints of its effect could be long standing,” said Wayne Carter, an associate professor from Nottingham University........

This weekend some Whitehall intelligence officials were eager to give the impression that Skripal was in “exceptional health considering what he has gone through”. But this newspaper understands that his condition has taken a downturn, even though it is not deemed critical.

“His health has got worse and he’s been receiving medical care at his home,” according to a well-informed intelligence source. “No one has any idea of what will happen to him because there’s very little that’s known about the impact the nerve agent will have on him in the long run.”

A Scotland Yard source, who is familiar with the investigation into the poison plot, said: “There’s no doubt that he’s going to be receiving close medical care for some time. And unlike Yulia, who was young and relatively healthy when she was poisoned, Sergei was not in the best shape to begin with.” Yulia remains in good health.

Sallyann1234
17th Feb 2019, 08:02
Cue the usual suspects to claim that "he is being killed off to stop him telling the truth about what really happened."

3. 2. 1 ...
​​​​​​

DaveReidUK
17th Feb 2019, 08:43
Cue the usual suspects to claim that "he is being killed off to stop him telling the truth about what really happened."

3. 2. 1 ...
​​​​​​

But the usual suspects keep telling us that it was a hoax, and nothing really happened ... :O

flash8
17th Feb 2019, 10:28
Cue the usual suspects to claim that "he is being killed off to stop him telling the truth about what really happened."If you read the story it is so ambiguous, that it doesn't really say anything, The first four paragraphs are irrelevant, the next two are ambiguous and the final one is again irrelevant.

The article says nothing substantive and seems to be little more than an embellishment of existing alleged facts.

Seems they need to fill a slow news day.

Stan Woolley
17th Feb 2019, 10:31
But the usual suspects keep telling us that it was a hoax, and nothing really happened ... :O

I don’t think that’s true.
People like me are not saying that nothing happened, or that it was a hoax, only that we shouldn’t be so quick at accepting what ‘the authorities’ say.

BehindBlueEyes
17th Feb 2019, 12:17
https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/17438785.russian-flag-hung-from-salisbury-cathedral-overnight/


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47270827

Andy_S
17th Feb 2019, 12:38
People like me are not saying that nothing happened, or that it was a hoax, only that we shouldn’t be so quick at accepting what ‘the authorities’ say.

That statement might have a bit more credibility if you, yourself, weren't so quick to accept the claims of dodgy bloggers.

Stan Woolley
17th Feb 2019, 13:09
That statement might have a bit more credibility if you, yourself, weren't so quick to accept the claims of dodgy bloggers.

Keep trying to deflect old fella. I can’t be arsed.

KelvinD
17th Feb 2019, 15:22
I suppose I might be one of those mischievously (or malignly?) labelled as one of those on the sceptics and I am tempted to join in on Stan's side. The official story may well be true. I would wager a fiver that none of the participants in this group actually know the answer. Note: the answer. Not the suspicion, theories etc, but the actual answer. I wish I knew. But I don't, so I would have to leave it at "If this is your theory, show me the proof", aimed at HM Government. If the government feel they can't release all the "proof" they may claim to have, then they must realise they are leaving the field wide open for the likes of Doubting Thomas (such as myself), the Crackpots and weird Conspiracy Theorists.
As for poor comrade Skripal, in his previous existence with Russian/Soviet intelligence, I wonder how many people he put in jeopardy, or in a grave perhaps? You play with fire, don't be amazed if your fingers get burned! Try as I may, I can not bring myself to fell any sympathy for the man. (While I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Dawn Sturgess).
And as for the holier than thou attitude of this government toward agents of a foreign having the brass neck, coming here and murdering/disposing of people viewed as enemies by their State, the warm and fuzzy, cuddly Western States might want too close a look taken at their own history.

Andy_S
17th Feb 2019, 16:14
As for poor comrade Skripal, in his previous existence with Russian/Soviet intelligence, I wonder how many people he put in jeopardy, or in a grave perhaps? You play with fire, don't be amazed if your fingers get burned!

That's fair enough Kelvin, other than the fact that he was part of an exchange. There's previously been a protocol, on both sides, that once that happens the perp is off limits.

flash8
17th Feb 2019, 18:56
As for poor comrade Skripal, in his previous existence with Russian/Soviet intelligence, I wonder how many people he put in jeopardy, or in a grave perhaps? Nobody here feels the least bit sympathy for him I assure you.

ORAC
1st Mar 2019, 09:12
Salisbury decontamination works expected to be declared complete today. Total of 13,000 hours of work by decontamination teams performed.

KelvinD
1st Mar 2019, 09:26
Salisbury decontamination works expected to be declared complete today. Total of 13,000 hours of work by decontamination teams performed.
Well, at least that is what was written on the invoice!

Krystal n chips
1st Mar 2019, 10:09
Ah, but, the question remains. According to the BBC report, those involved will have their courage " recognised in due course " ..hence will this recognition also apply to those fearless civic minded denizens of Salisbury who cycled around unprotected in their selfless disregard for their own safety when engaged in a deductive capacity.....

G-CPTN
1st Mar 2019, 10:11
will this recognition also apply to those fearless civic minded denizens of Salisbury who cycled around unprotected in their selfless disregard for their own safety when engaged in a deductive capacity.....
:confused:

Andy_S
1st Mar 2019, 10:17
:confused:

Krystal is having a bit of a pop at a fellow PPRuNer and resident of Salisbury whose (well informed and reasonable) observations on the Skripal affair seem to have caused him offence.....

flash8
1st Mar 2019, 11:17
Well, we are still no closer to solving the mystery, working on the assumption we have at best been told a partial story.

Personally, as I have stated, over the last decade I have worked closely with a lot of former Russian officers (one ex-Colonel has an office just over from mine), and I used to have monthly meetings for many years with serving GRU/other officers to update on a US government task order I worked on for the DTRA.

These Laurel and Hardy pair were so far away from what I'd expect (and even what most Russians would expect, see Margarita Simonyan's reaction to them on State TV) I am finding it hard to reconcile the view they were even remotely involved.

Now I am not saying the RF are blameless, but given what I've seen so far I'm finding it hard to accept the narrative presented, too many things just don't add up.

WingNut60
1st Mar 2019, 20:19
Well, we are still no closer to solving the mystery, working on the assumption we have at best been told a partial story........
.

Which opens the door for a string of "The Skripals: What Really Happened"-type exposes till well after the end of my life time, from most anyone with a tin-foil hat, a grade-school grasp of the English language, and who watched any of the TV coverage at the time.
A nice little earner.

(Note to self : Cut and paste above to MH370 thread(s). Edit as necessary.)

atakacs
5th Mar 2019, 20:49
Fairly quite on year after the fact...

Could any of the esteemed experts here explain why on earth they had to replace the roof of the Skripal's house ?

Also - call me whatever you want - I am far from convinced that they are free of their movements. I'm sure some sort of non-scripted press conference would go a long way to dissipate most lingering doubts. Not to mention the infamous disappearing Mark Urban's book or the fairly shoddy Pablo Miller character that apparently nobody is interested in.

VP959
5th Mar 2019, 21:00
Fairly quite on year after the fact...

Could any of the esteemed experts here explain why on earth they had to replace the roof of the Skripal's house ?

Also - call me whatever you want - I am far from convinced that they are free of their movements. I'm sure some sort of non-scripted press conference would go a long way to dissipate most lingering doubts. Not to mention the infamous disappearing Mark Urban's book or the fairly shoddy Pablo Miller character that apparently nobody is interested in.

The story I've heard is that the inside of the house was contaminated quite badly, the suspicion being that those doing the searching in the house (wearing protective clothing) may have spread the agent around on the outside of their suits. No idea how true that is, but it seems plausible, as they only secured the outside of the place and had a decon tent/shower set up in front of the front door for a fair time. Other places in town that have been decontaminated have been pretty thoroughly demolished internally, it's taken nearly a year to remove the last of the contamination from places they visited in town that day. They even dug out and removed all the grass and a fair depth of soil around the area where they collapsed, bagged it up and incinerated it. That area has now been restored with clean soil, new grass and a replacement bench.

BehindBlueEyes
5th Mar 2019, 21:46
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-wiltshire-47369517


I remember thinking at the time that some of the advice given to residents was quite bizarre.

k3k3
5th Mar 2019, 22:33
They replaced the roof to eradicate all traces of the GCHQ monitoring equipment...
Got to go, there's someone at the doo

racedo
5th Mar 2019, 22:52
The story I've heard is that the inside of the house was contaminated quite badly, the suspicion being that those doing the searching in the house (wearing protective clothing) may have spread the agent around on the outside of their suits. No idea how true that is, but it seems plausible, as they only secured the outside of the place and had a decon tent/shower set up in front of the front door for a fair time. Other places in town that have been decontaminated have been pretty thoroughly demolished internally, it's taken nearly a year to remove the last of the contamination from places they visited in town that day. They even dug out and removed all the grass and a fair depth of soil around the area where they collapsed, bagged it up and incinerated it. That area has now been restored with clean soil, new grass and a replacement bench.

Would have been cheaper just to buy next door, demolish them both, dig a big hole and do a coverup................ well another one.

VP959
6th Mar 2019, 07:32
Would have been cheaper just to buy next door, demolish them both, dig a big hole and do a coverup................ well another one.

The stuff is pretty persistent, though, and the best way to get rid of it is to incinerate it if that's possible. There happens to be a large chemical weapons disposal incinerator only a short distance from the house, although the contaminated vehicles (at least one ambulance, police car, his car) were wrapped in plastic sheeting and buried.

arketip
6th Mar 2019, 08:08
The story I've heard is that the inside of the house was contaminated quite badly, the suspicion being that those doing the searching in the house (wearing protective clothing) may have spread the agent around on the outside of their suits. No idea how true that is, but it seems plausible, as they only secured the outside of the place and had a decon tent/shower set up in front of the front door for a fair time. Other places in town that have been decontaminated have been pretty thoroughly demolished internally, it's taken nearly a year to remove the last of the contamination from places they visited in town that day. They even dug out and removed all the grass and a fair depth of soil around the area where they collapsed, bagged it up and incinerated it. That area has now been restored with clean soil, new grass and a replacement bench.

You mean that thanks to the search team they went from a "simple" contaminated door knob to a fully contaminated house and maybe more?

VP959
6th Mar 2019, 08:27
You mean that thanks to the search team they went from a "simple" contaminated door knob to a fully contaminated house and maybe more?

Apparently. The same goes for the destroyed emergency services vehicles that were too contaminated to be able to clean up so have been wrapped and buried. The stuff was spread around a fair bit by people who, by almost pure luck, mostly didn't get the stuff on their skin.

Sallyann1234
6th Mar 2019, 09:12
It's hardly surprising that many of the actions at the time can be seen wrong in retrospect. The authorities were dealing with an unprecedented situation, and were learning on the job.
Hopefully if there is another attack they will be better prepared, but the next one will probably use a different vector.


​​​​​​

VP959
6th Mar 2019, 09:31
One of the main issues seems to be that it took more than 48 hours to confirm that this was a chemical agent attack, and in that initial period normal police and forensic examination actions took place that accidentally spread the agent around. Thankfully, only one police officer was seriously contaminated, something which is pretty amazing given that no one knew in the early stages that a highly toxic chemical agent had been used. Before this attack, who would have dreamt that something this bizarre would be used to attempt murder? I can only think of two other cases in the last 40 years that have been as bizarre as this one; Georgi Markov in 1978, murdered by a tiny pellet impregnated with ricin and injected via a modified umbrella and Alexander Litvinenko, murdered by the adding of polonium 210 to his tea.

Sallyann1234
6th Mar 2019, 09:58
Exactly. I do wonder what is next on the list of novel chemical attacks. No doubt there are a few alternatives in stock.

racedo
6th Mar 2019, 11:25
The stuff is pretty persistent, though, and the best way to get rid of it is to incinerate it if that's possible. There happens to be a large chemical weapons disposal incinerator only a short distance from the house, although the contaminated vehicles (at least one ambulance, police car, his car) were wrapped in plastic sheeting and buried.

So Betjeman needs to rewrite and use Salisbury with a nuke.

racedo
6th Mar 2019, 11:27
Exactly. I do wonder what is next on the list of novel chemical attacks. No doubt there are a few alternatives in stock.

Cancer causing gene manipulation has been going on for a while in research. Use persons genetic makeup and give them cancer.

Sallyann1234
6th Mar 2019, 11:44
Cancer causing gene manipulation has been going on for a while in research. Use persons genetic makeup and give them cancer.
I suppose that would be possible. Your colleagues will no doubt have former employees' DNA on file.

racedo
6th Mar 2019, 23:28
I suppose that would be possible. Your colleagues will no doubt have former employees' DNA on file.

Same snide bitchy remarks as per normal. If my ex colleagues have these then perhaps HMG needs to answer questions why.

flash8
7th Mar 2019, 18:47
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/03/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/

Excellent and thought provoking article by Craig Murray just published. The whole episode stinks to high heaven.

VP959
7th Mar 2019, 19:01
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/03/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/

Excellent and thought provoking article by Craig Murray just published. The whole episode stinks to high heaven.

Pity that he doesn't have the faintest idea about the chemistry of this stuff, and so has chosen to ignore the fact that the signature comes from the tiny traces of impurities, that are pretty much as good as a fingerprint when it comes to comparative (not absolute) analysis. The man really is a bit of a cockwomble, who has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding the British government, and takes every opportunity he can to try and spin things to make them seem more complex/mysterious than they probably are.

clareprop
7th Mar 2019, 19:04
Just because someone has a blog and can write doesn't' mean it's true.

I don't have a blog but... Occam's Razor. GRU sent two guys to give some payback. They screwed-up, killed an innocent person, injured many others and were caught on camera doing so. End of.

flash8
7th Mar 2019, 19:07
Pity that he doesn't have the faintest idea about the chemistry of this stuff, and so has chosen to ignore the fact that the signature comes from the tiny traces of impurities, that are pretty much as good as a fingerprint when it comes to comparative (not absolute) analysis. The man really is a bit of a cockwomble, who has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding the British government, and takes every opportunity he can to try and spin things to make them seem more complex/mysterious than they probably are.
I don't know, he has in the past made very acute observations. I was not aware for instance that the Chief Nursing officer of the Entire British Army happened to be "accidentally" first on the scene whilst walking by. That's one bloody big coincidence.

VP959
7th Mar 2019, 20:44
I don't know, he has in the past made very acute observations. I was not aware for instance that the Chief Nursing officer of the Entire British Army happened to be "accidentally" first on the scene whilst walking by. That's one bloody big coincidence.

Not exactly a coincidence, given that there is a large Army healthcare service presence here (my wife is one of them!). We have a massive military presence around the Salisbury area, a presence which has grown a great deal over the past few years with the shift of troops back from overseas to be based here. Headquarters Land (the British Army HQ) is a few miles away at Andover, too.

Stan Woolley
7th Mar 2019, 21:55
Just because someone has a blog and can write doesn't' mean it's true.

I don't have a blog but... Occam's Razor. GRU sent two guys to give some payback. They screwed-up, killed an innocent person, injured many others and were caught on camera doing so. End of.


Here’s another dissenting voice. There’s quite a few around.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripal-poisoning-salisbury-attack-yulia-russia-novichok-putin-a8807191.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

atakacs
8th Mar 2019, 10:17
Pity that he doesn't have the faintest idea about the chemistry of this stuff, and so has chosen to ignore the fact that the signature comes from the tiny traces of impurities, that are pretty much as good as a fingerprint when it comes to comparative (not absolute) analysis.

Yet does that invalidate all the questions he rises in his blog post ?

You seem to know a lot about the "chemistry of this stuff". Would you be willing to actually refute the – reasonable to me – points Murray is rising when it come to the agent being used ? Ok, I accept that it can be clearly identified based on the "impurities fingerprint" to a Russian (now Uzbeck) facility down to a batch produced 30 years ago. Yet when asked where this information was coming from you could not quote any public source. Are you, contrary to what you claim, privy to non-public information, even on an informal basis ? If so I would obviously not ask for specifics but at the very least you have to make it unequivocally clear. And if not on what basis are you making such a bold claim ?

The man really is a bit of a cockwomble, who has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding the British government, and takes every opportunity he can to try and spin things to make them seem more complex/mysterious than they probably are.

Well, if you were in his boots, having been abused by said government after blowing the whistle on some fairly despicable actions, I'd guess you might still have some grudge… But again, regardless of what you might think of the man, why not actually go through his questions and address them factually ? Some are technical and most likely in your area of expertise. Others are more political or pertain to the way this investigation was / is proceeding. I guess the whole point of these forums is to try to have a civil discussion ?

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 12:38
The process of finding out what had been used would have been broken down into three stages. Firstly, the compound had to be extracted from whatever it was on, in a way that didn't cause any degradation. Secondly, the resulting sample would be analysed to determine what the compound was. This analysis wouldn't pop out a neat compound name, but the proportion of elements making up the compound, any carrier solvent used and probably some residual contamination from other compounds. At the end of this stage those doing the analysis would know the identity of the compound, which in this case seems to match that of a organophosphate agent known by the designation given to it by the chemical weapons labs of the former Soviet Union as A-234.

If this was as far as any investigation went, then all that would be know was the name of the agent. However, there is another stage, which is to compare the specific chemical signature of the compound being analysed with reference signatures obtained from other samples of the same compound. During the days after the collapse of the Soviet Union, up until the time that the Russian Federation chose to deny inspector access, samples of many different chemical warfare agents were obtained, by international inspectors, as a part of the clean up operation that took place within states that were now independent, but which had once been a part of the Soviet Union. The signature from these reference samples is very like a fingerprint, except, AFAIK, they have never been validated in any court of law as being of sufficient evidential quality as to be used to gain a conviction (which isn't to say they aren't of the required quality; just that there hasn't been occasion to prove this one way or the other in court).

This final stage of the analysis would have been to compare the signature of the A-234 derived from the Salisbury samples with that of several reference samples of the same compound. Some of these reference samples will have been prepared by labs in other countries, and some came from labs in the former Soviet Union. From what has been made public, it seems that there was a good correlation between the samples from Salisbury and specific samples from labs within the former Soviet Union. Correlation does not prove causality, though, hence the careful choice of words used to suggest that the agent originated from a former Soviet Union lab.

It's perfectly possible that the agent came from elsewhere, but that would require that the unknown lab used the same precursor compounds, from the same sources, and followed exactly the same preparation technique, as was used by the former Soviet lab. That's a pretty hard thing to do, and it would be pretty difficult to carry it off without an anomaly being detectable in the finished agent.

There comes a point where someone (not a scientist) has to make a judgement, based on probability. All the evidence is circumstantial, yet there is a fair bit of it, and it pretty much all points to the attempted murder of the Skripals, and the manslaughter of Dawn Sturgess, as having most probably been carried out by people from Russia, who had access to former Soviet chemical agents.

Anyone can make a case for another state having taken this action, but many questions then have to be asked.

What other state had such an interest in killing the Skripals,as to undertake an operation like this, that posed a very high risk of collateral death and injury?

What other state had access to an experimental, never weaponised, former Soviet era chemical warfare agent, that had only been produced in small quantities for evaluation?

What other state has a track record for seeking to assassinate former nationals on foreign soil?

What other states have the technical capability, and desire, to exactly replicate the techniques used by the former Soviet labs, using the exact same precursor compounds, and what motive would they have to do this?

What motive would any state other than the Russian Federation have for taking such a colossal risk by undertaking such an attack on UK soil?

Making up conspiracy theories is easy, as those who do never have to prove them, they often do so simply to pursue their own agendas, and if they are shown to be wrong it does them no harm at all, they can still sell articles, profit from publishing more theories etc, and will never be held to account in any court of law.

KelvinD
8th Mar 2019, 12:49
Pity that he doesn't have the faintest idea about the chemistry of this stuff, and so has chosen to ignore the fact that the signature comes from the tiny traces of impurities,
That says to me that you didn't read Murray's article. If you had, you would have noticed his mention of the OPCW reporting that the sample supplied to them had virtually no impurities. No impurities makes it hard to determine the source, doesn't it?
One thing that has puzzled me since day one though: If the agent was smeared on the door knob how did it affect both father and daughter equally? Did the scenario go something like "There you are Yulia. I have closed the door successfully, now you have a go". If 2 people are leaving through a door, the last one out will close the door, leaving the first to leave somewhere distant from the door. If the contamination was made during entry to the house, then the first person would touch the door knob and the 2nd person to enter would close the door from the inside. Whether entering or exiting the house, you would not expect both persons to each touch the same parts of the same door knob, surely?

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 13:02
That says to me that you didn't read Murray's article. If you had, you would have noticed his mention of the OPCW reporting that the sample supplied to them had virtually no impurities. No impurities makes it hard to determine the source, doesn't it?
One thing that has puzzled me since day one though: If the agent was smeared on the door knob how did it affect both father and daughter equally? Did the scenario go something like "There you are Yulia. I have closed the door successfully, now you have a go". If 2 people are leaving through a door, the last one out will close the door, leaving the first to leave somewhere distant from the door. If the contamination was made during entry to the house, then the first person would touch the door knob and the 2nd person to enter would close the door from the inside. Whether entering or exiting the house, you would not expect both persons to each touch the same parts of the same door knob, surely?

I did read it, but in the context of what was meant by (the heresay) statement "virtually no impurities". Two points:

1 - Nothing has been released to quantify the various statements that have been banded around, and which have no meaning without quantification. Statements have been made saying that the agent was "military grade (doesn't exist as a standard) or "virtually no impurities", again that has no quantifiable standard either.

2 - "Virtually no impurities", "very pure", "military grade" or whatever don't state that the compound was absolutely pure, and this is critical to trying to assess where it may have been prepared. The purer an agent like this is, the easier it is, somewhat paradoxically, to try to pin down where it may have been produced.

We buy "pure" products all the time, yet none are truly 100% pure and most can be analysed, compared to reference samples and then traced to a specific place, and perhaps time, of manufacture. Best example is probably fuel. Analysis of that can pin down where the fuel in a particular vehicle tank has come from, perhaps down to the actual fuel tanker used to deliver the fuel to the dispensing filling station (as tanker dosing at distribution centres causes slight variations).

Krystal n chips
8th Mar 2019, 14:40
Yet does that invalidate all the questions he rises in his blog post ?

You seem to know a lot about the "chemistry of this stuff". Would you be willing to actually refute the – reasonable to me – points Murray is rising when it come to the agent being used ? Ok, I accept that it can be clearly identified based on the "impurities fingerprint" to a Russian (now Uzbeck) facility down to a batch produced 30 years ago. Yet when asked where this information was coming from you could not quote any public source. Are you, contrary to what you claim, privy to non-public information, even on an informal basis ? If so I would obviously not ask for specifics but at the very least you have to make it unequivocally clear. And if not on what basis are you making such a bold claim ?


?

The question you ask was posed several times during the prominence of this event on the many posts on here, but, no reply was received. However, there were two significant comments. The first was that "I have received some interesting snippets of info ". ( as was pointed out, this limits the potential sources considerably ) ...there were numerous other tantalising offerings including the modus operandi (allegedly ) as to how various states including the UK arrange "accidents "....., later on however, there was a quiet disclaimer that said poster had not been in contact with former colleagues. What prompted this disclaimer remains unknown, however, this is a publicly accessible website and the poster went to extensive lengths to inform the world as to his expertise and background. This does attract attention.. ..strangely.

Any comments by Craig Murray are disparaged as a matter of course. The poster used some extremely complex chemistry and terminology which, while it reads impressively, as is the intention, also ensured very, very, few people actually had a clue as to the contents of the posts.

Your own question joins the list of many which remain unanswered therefore. You should also be aware the poster is prolifically self-aggrandizing and has expertise in areas to the level most would consider as being a career in itself. That, and there are numerous "amazing coincidences " on numerous threads that he has experienced. There have also been several, ahem, "anomalies "...to put it politely.

Before I get accused of being jolly beastly to the poster, as I've said before, as in the real world, when somebody constantly promotes their experiences, then people tend to take notice and duly take a deeper interest as to the veracity of these claims. If, however, you are fortunate enough to get a reply, feel free to ask him about his 42 types, why a civil servant was working for the BBC and RTE and filming on the Broadwater Farm Estate and who "my Minister " was as this implies a position at the very top of the CS.

flash8
8th Mar 2019, 14:44
Not exactly a coincidence, given that there is a large Army healthcare service presence here (my wife is one of them!). We have a massive military presence around the Salisbury area, a presence which has grown a great deal over the past few years with the shift of troops back from overseas to be based here. Headquarters Land (the British Army HQ) is a few miles away at Andover, too.
Let us be realistic here VP, this was the Chief Nursing Officer of the entire British Army, and she was first on the scene, by accident, walking back from an engagement, whatever stars aligned, this coincidence is absolutely phenomenal, explaining it away as oh well there is a large Army presence in the area (as well may be) doesn't cut it here.

Whilst many of your conclusions are well presented, certainly, in Science and I read your output with respect, in this instance, however, even you must admit this is a coincidence a tad too far.

Some would even call it taking the piss (not you I hasten to add, the scenario).

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 14:57
Let us be realistic here VP, this was the Chief Nursing Officer of the entire British Army, and she was first on the scene, by accident, walking back from an engagement, whatever stars aligned, this coincidence is absolutely phenomenal, explaining it away as oh well there is a large Army presence in the area (as well may be) doesn't cut it here.

Whilst many of your conclusions are well presented, certainly, in Science and I read your output with respect, in this instance, however, even you must admit this is a coincidence a tad too far.

Some would even call it taking the piss (not you I hasten to add, the scenario).

Bit like me walking through town one day and bumping into Dick Dannatt, then, who at the time was the Chief of the General Staff. That happened, unlikely as it might seem (needless to say he didn't have a clue as to I was at that time).

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 15:16
Just checked, she's a Colonel (see here: https://www.qarancassociation.org.uk/association-news/item/293-chief-nursing-officer-colonel-a-l-mccourt-obe-arrc-qhn), based at Larkhill, Salisbury Plain, so hardly surprising that she happened to be in Salisbury - she only lives about 10 miles away. She's also worked closely with Public Health England in the past, who although geographically located adjacent to DSTL Porton Down, are separate from that establishment, have their own security, fencing etc and are not connected with anything that goes on at DSTL Porton Down to my knowledge.

Krystal n chips
8th Mar 2019, 15:59
Bit like me walking through town one day and bumping into Dick Dannatt, then, who at the time was the Chief of the General Staff. That happened, unlikely as it might seem (needless to say he didn't have a clue as to I was at that time).

Which implies he subsequently did become aware of you..in which case..... in what capacity and context ?

Sallyann1234
8th Mar 2019, 16:53
Let us be realistic here VP, this was the Chief Nursing Officer of the entire British Army, and she was first on the scene, by accident, walking back from an engagement, whatever stars aligned, this coincidence is absolutely phenomenal, explaining it away as oh well there is a large Army presence in the area (as well may be) doesn't cut it here.

But what you are describing for us is indeed an actual accident.

If the meeting was indeed planned in advance as you suggest then

either the instigators knew in advance that the victims would be sitting there at that exact time after their meal and had organised for the CNO's engagement to finish then so she could be walking past,

or the victims had somehow been persuaded to finish their meal and be seated at that conveniently available seat at the time when the CNO was due to walk past.

Which would you subscribe to, and how was it arranged so carefully?
And while you are at it perhaps you could explain why? What actual purpose would be served by having the CNO find them, in that busy area with so many uninvolved witnesses about?

I would prefer to think it not unreasonable that people who lived in that general area should pass each other when visiting the local town.

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 16:57
There's also the fact that it was her daughter, Abigail, who put one of the Skripal's in the recovery position and administered first aid. Not something that either would have done if they had the faintest suspicion that the collapse of the Skripals had been due to a highly toxic chemical agent.

flash8
8th Mar 2019, 17:04
But what you are describing for us is indeed an actual accident.

If the meeting was indeed planned in advance as you suggest then

either the instigators knew in advance that the victims would be sitting there at that exact time after their meal and had organised for the CNO's engagement to finish then so she could be walking past just then,

or the victims had somehow been persuaded to finish their meal and be seated at that conveniently available seat at the time when the CNO was due to walk past.

Which would you subscribe to, and how was it arranged so carefully?
And while you are at it perhaps you could explain what actual purpose would be served by having the CNO find them, in that busy area with so many uninvolved witnesses about?

I would prefer to think it not unreasonable that people who lived in that general area should pass each other when visiting the local town.
Actually, to be fair to her, I believe her daughter was with her, and it is extremely unlikely she would put her daughter in any danger (which begs, of course, an alternate universe where the Skripal's weren't actually contagious in any way, but that is going probably too conspiratorial). Still, is another piece of this unsolved puzzle.

pilotmike
8th Mar 2019, 17:32
Not exactly a coincidence, given that there is a large Army healthcare service presence here (my wife is one of them!). We have a massive military presence around the Salisbury area, a presence which has grown a great deal over the past few years with the shift of troops back from overseas to be based here. Headquarters Land (the British Army HQ) is a few miles away at Andover, too.

The biggest shock for me was VP959's wife being a mere Army healthcare person, not the CHIEF Chief Nursing Officer of the ENTIRE Entire British Army, given his ever-impressive list credentials and connections. What happened there VP? You've slipped a bit in my estimation. :ok:

VP959
8th Mar 2019, 17:39
The biggest shock for me was VP959's wife being a mere Army healthcare person, not the CHIEF Chief Nursing Officer of the ENTIRE Entire British Army, given his ever-impressive list credentials and connections. What happened there VP, missed a trick?:ok:

Perhaps try accurately listing my supposed list of "impressive credentials", rather than the hype that arises from elsewhere. It's not hard to search this site, after all. I can give a clue, I have no "impressive credentials" at all, let alone "connections", although some may well choose to misrepresent things to suggest that I do.

TEEEJ
8th Mar 2019, 19:25
One thing that has puzzled me since day one though: If the agent was smeared on the door knob how did it affect both father and daughter equally? Did the scenario go something like "There you are Yulia. I have closed the door successfully, now you have a go". If 2 people are leaving through a door, the last one out will close the door, leaving the first to leave somewhere distant from the door. If the contamination was made during entry to the house, then the first person would touch the door knob and the 2nd person to enter would close the door from the inside. Whether entering or exiting the house, you would not expect both persons to each touch the same parts of the same door knob, surely?

Consider Sergei wearing gloves/driving gloves on leaving the house and locking the door? His skin is not in direct contact with the nerve agent. Sergei removes gloves and while removing them turns them inside out thus his skin is still not in direct contact with the nerve agent. Only later are his hands contaminated when he puts the gloves back on or turns them from inside out. He then transfers it to Yulia via hand holding, etc. Also consider that Yulia forgot something and re-entered the house?

Sallyann1234
8th Mar 2019, 20:43
It's not unknown for a father to take hold of a daughter's hand, especially when they have been apart for a while.

racedo
17th Apr 2019, 17:01
The Deep State gets caught lying. Something afoot as NYT is reporting it when a year ago they were cheering the expulsions.

"To persuade Mr. Trump, according to people briefed on the conversation, officials including Ms. Haspel also tried to show him that Mr. Skripal and his daughter were not the only victims of Russia’s attack.Ms. Haspel showed pictures the British government had supplied her of young children hospitalized after being sickened by the Novichok nerve agent that poisoned the Skripals. She then showed a photograph of ducks that British officials said were inadvertently killed by the sloppy work of the Russian operatives."https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/gina-haspel-trump.html

VP959
17th Apr 2019, 17:25
Sounds like misinformation, in part at least. Lots of people were examined and treated at SDH immediately after the collapse of the Skripals, but the majority were discharged quickly. IIRC, pretty much everyone that had been in The Mill and in Zizzi at the time the Skripals were in there attended SDH as a precaution, so there's a fair chance that some may have been children. I'm not aware of any photos being released of any of those people, with the exception of the one person who was admitted for treatment, Det Sgt Bailey.

As for dead ducks, then that wasn't reported locally, but it's possible, as the area in The Maltings where they collapsed has a pretty high concentration of ducks, and people regularly feed them right around the bench where the Skripals collapsed. That area was quickly cordoned off, so if there were dead ducks there then the chance of the media being able to take photos of them would have been pretty close to zero.

Stan Woolley
17th Apr 2019, 17:56
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

racedo
17th Apr 2019, 18:16
Sounds like misinformation, in part at least. Lots of people were examined and treated at SDH immediately after the collapse of the Skripals, but the majority were discharged quickly. IIRC, pretty much everyone that had been in The Mill and in Zizzi at the time the Skripals were in there attended SDH as a precaution, so there's a fair chance that some may have been children. I'm not aware of any photos being released of any of those people, with the exception of the one person who was admitted for treatment, Det Sgt Bailey.

As for dead ducks, then that wasn't reported locally, but it's possible, as the area in The Maltings where they collapsed has a pretty high concentration of ducks, and people regularly feed them right around the bench where the Skripals collapsed. That area was quickly cordoned off, so if there were dead ducks there then the chance of the media being able to take photos of them would have been pretty close to zero.

Not misinformation, just plain lies to suit an agenda. Bearing in mind Steele dossier (Ex British Intelligence) has been found to be a fabrication then this was yet another one which was supplied by UK Intelligence. Boris was Foreign Secretary and it was him not Home Secretary who should have been person on point in this.

Had Trump not expelled them the story would have been released about 3 children and dead ducks and US President allowing it to happen along with poisoning in Syria.

Someone wants a war but we need to understand WHO this is.
.
What is does say is US President, despite being abused is refusing to take Intelligence services first word on anything, so exactly why are they acting like this against a US President ?

VP959
17th Apr 2019, 18:29
Not misinformation, just plain lies to suit an agenda. Bearing in mind Steele dossier (Ex British Intelligence) has been found to be a fabrication then this was yet another one which was supplied by UK Intelligence. Boris was Foreign Secretary and it was him not Home Secretary who should have been person on point in this.

Had Trump not expelled them the story would have been released about 3 children and dead ducks and US President allowing it to happen along with poisoning in Syria.

Someone wants a war but we need to understand WHO this is.
.
What is does say is US President, despite being abused is refusing to take Intelligence services first word on anything, so exactly why are they acting like this against a US President ?

In the complete absence of any evidence in the public domain, I'm not sure that we can draw any specific conclusions. The NYT story is just that, a story, and although it's perhaps a bit more credible than some of the stuff peddled by the conspiracy theorists, there's no way to be able to say, with any degree of certainty, that what they are reporting is factual. Everyone has an agenda, either public, or private, and that colours their opinions and views, and how thing get reported.

If I had to guess, then I'd say there most probably were hard facts underpinning the statement that there were children treated at SDH immediately after the Skripals collapsed (frankly I'd be surprised if there weren't, given the day of the week, the time and the venue). Whether the facts were embellished in order to make a point is open to question, but I'd say the chances are they may have been. The bit about the dead ducks is a complete unknown. It's plausible, given the location, as there will almost certainly have been ducks within metres of the bench where they collapsed, and every time I've walked through there it's clear that the ducks make a beeline for anyone they think may feed them. The flip side is that I'm pretty sure there has been no other report of dead ducks at The Maltings at the time of their collapse, so I'd like to see some verification of that claim, as I suspect it may well have been further embellishment.

Stan Woolley
17th Apr 2019, 18:59
If I had to guess, then I'd say there most probably were hard facts underpinning the statement that there were children treated at SDH immediately after the Skripals collapsed (frankly I'd be surprised if there weren't, given the day of the week, the time and the venue).

From Craig Murray’s latest article which I posted above:
Dr Stephen Davies of Salisbury Hospital’s letter of 16 March 2018 to the Times has been explained away as poorly written or edited, in relation to the cause of the Skripals’ illness. But be that as it may, one thing the doctor’s letter does without any shadow of a doubt, is rule out the possibility of hospitalised children.

There were no hospitalised children.

KelvinD
17th Apr 2019, 19:17
Stan: Thanks for the link which I have just read. Now let's sit back and await the inevitable nay sayers with their clever logic, rubbishing Craig Murray!

VP959
17th Apr 2019, 21:18
From Craig Murray’s latest article which I posted above:
Dr Stephen Davies of Salisbury Hospital’s letter of 16 March 2018 to the Times has been explained away as poorly written or edited, in relation to the cause of the Skripals’ illness. But be that as it may, one thing the doctor’s letter does without any shadow of a doubt, is rule out the possibility of hospitalised children.

There were no hospitalised children.



According to reports from the time, 38 people were treated at SDH, including several children. All, except the Skripals and Det Sgt Bailey were discharged after examination/treatment. My guess is that someone stretched the meaning of the word "hospitalised". I'd assume that it meant admitted to hospital at least overnight, but I'd guess someone with an agenda to make things seem worse than they were might choose to interpret being examined and treated in hospital as being "hospitalised".

As I wrote before, everyone always has agenda, and that will colour how they choose to portray things.

TEEEJ
17th Apr 2019, 22:13
From Craig Murray’s latest article which I posted above:
Dr Stephen Davies of Salisbury Hospital’s letter of 16 March 2018 to the Times has been explained away as poorly written or edited, in relation to the cause of the Skripals’ illness. But be that as it may, one thing the doctor’s letter does without any shadow of a doubt, is rule out the possibility of hospitalised children.

There were no hospitalised children.
Yes 3 children were hospitalised after that letter of Dr Stephen Davies of 16th March 2018. Definition of hospitalised - to place in a hospital for medical care or observation

"Children hospitalised after poisoned Russian spy ‘gave them bread to feed ducks’"

https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/25/children-hospitalised-poisoned-russian-spy-gave-bread-feed-ducks-7414979/

Three boys were taken for hospital tests after they met the former Russian spy and his daughter in a playground before the pair were found collapsed on a bench.

Mr Skripal, 67, gave the boys bread which they fed to the ducks and the trio were later tracked down by police who saw the exchange on CCTV and sent them for tests. ....

After the poisoning in March last year Aiden Cooper, 12, revealed that he had been playing in the park with two of his friends when they were given bread by Mr Skripal.

It was not until around two weeks later that police knocked on his family’s door and told them they had identified him through CCTV and he needed to go to hospital.

His father Luke revealed that they had to take him “for a load of tests and then the police told us they had to burn everything Aiden was wearing that day”.

It was said at the time that US officials had been briefed about the incident.

The boys were thought to be the youngest of the 130 people tested for potential exposure to the deadly nerve agent.

Whitehall sources said that they were "not aware" of any pictures being sent to the Americans.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/16/donald-trump-shown-pictures-children-hospitalised-novichok-attack/

Aiden's father Luke confirms that it was two weeks. So that was after the letter released by the Doctor.

“We didn’t think anything of it until two weeks later when then the police knocked on our door.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5916870/schoolboy-salisbury-nerve-agent-attack/

KelvinD
17th Apr 2019, 22:24
I have some doubts about the Telegraph story. Weren't there reports at the time of Mr. Skripal appearing to be unwell or unsteady while in the restaurant. If my memory has served me well, this would have been just before they left the restaurant and before they reached the park bench. So, again if memory serves, this would mean he was well along the road to his collapse and semi-comatose state, yet the newspaper wants us to believe he was well enough not only to give the boy some bread for the ducks but was well enough to comport himself in a manner that would not arouse suspicion in a parent that some drunk or smack head was attempting to interact with their child.
I don't think so.

TEEEJ
17th Apr 2019, 23:26
I have some doubts about the Telegraph story. Weren't there reports at the time of Mr. Skripal appearing to be unwell or unsteady while in the restaurant. If my memory has served me well, this would have been just before they left the restaurant and before they reached the park bench. So, again if memory serves, this would mean he was well along the road to his collapse and semi-comatose state, yet the newspaper wants us to believe he was well enough not only to give the boy some bread for the ducks but was well enough to comport himself in a manner that would not arouse suspicion in a parent that some drunk or smack head was attempting to interact with their child.
I don't think so.

The feeding of the ducks was before they went to the restaurant. Skripals parked car and went to feed the ducks in The Maltings. One of the boys' mothers who was shown the CCTV confirmed the time as 1:45pm. They then went to The Mill pub before going to Zizzi restaurant at 2:20pm. They left the restaurant at 3:35pm.

KelvinD
18th Apr 2019, 07:49
Thanks for straightening that out for me TEEEJ. I must get my memory in for an overhaul!

TEEEJ
18th Apr 2019, 19:08
Thanks for straightening that out for me TEEEJ. I must get my memory in for an overhaul!

No problem, Kelvin. Thanks for the reply.

Steepclimb
18th Apr 2019, 23:12
Reading the last few posts. It's amusing that anyone thinks it wasn't Putin and the Russians who tried to kill Scrkipal.
Even the most dedicated Russian troll can't believe that.
Besides anyone who thinks the British could organise something like that hasn't being paying attention to the Brexit debacle.

I mean seriously?

​​​​​​

KelvinD
19th Apr 2019, 08:50
Steepclimb: May I politely suggest you may be reading different posts to the rest of us? I did not see any reference to Putin or Russia in any of the "last few posts", with the exception of the reference to Russians by the lying head of the CIA (post #3104).

Sallyann1234
20th Apr 2019, 14:10
Steepclimb: May I politely suggest you may be reading different posts to the rest of us? I did not see any reference to Putin or Russia in any of the "last few posts", with the exception of the reference to Russians by the lying head of the CIA (post #3104).
Since this whole thread is about the attack on Skripal and others by Russian agents, there is an implicit reference to Putin and Russia in every post, whether they are mentioned by name or not.

A_Van
20th Apr 2019, 16:50
Since this whole thread is about the attack on Skripal and others by Russian agents, there is an implicit reference to Putin and Russia in every post, whether they are mentioned by name or not.

Sallyann,

May I politely disagree with you. IMHO, painting whole countries and subcontinents on the map in black or white ("good guys" or "bad guys" only) is a too primitive approach.

With regard to the context you mentioned there are several options concerning Russia and some of them are quite contradictory.

1. Putin.
Skripal is obviously a too small fry for the president. Especially as he pardoned him personally not long ago and allowed to relocate to the UK. There are many real enemies of Putin freely living in London, so why use "resources" to deal with someone in the fourth division and putting at risk the whole foreign policy? Seems not logical at all.

2. Heads of various Russian "services".
Considerations similar to the above. They had enough power not to allow to pardon Skripal and, instead, could easily crucify him somewhere in a KGB dungeon.

3. Former "colleagues" of Skripal.
Yes, it seems possible that some of them (maybe many) suffered a lot from this traitor and were looking for a revenge. Looks possible that, say, on a "department level" this kind of an operation could take place. But why choosing such an exotic way involving a very rare substance? Special agent(s) could easily do it with a regular gun in the same very park. 9 grams of lead between the eyes is definitely a more reliable solution (and a better trained exercise) than soiling a door knob with a dangerous stuff that could kill the killer as well and have him caught on cameras.

4. Russian criminal elements who live in London and who were afraid of being thrown out of the country back to Russia.
One of the obvious way to reduce such risks was to demonize Russia and the regime. Thus, they are obvious beneficiaries. And they have money and links to organized crime. They could obtain any substance, and this one was available in the UK, Czech republic and some former parts of the USSR (including Russia itself). Some 20 years before Skripal a Georgian banker named Kivelidi was poisoned in a very similar way by his business rivals who found a chemweap expert who sold them an ampoule. If these guys were behind the scene, they succeeded.

5. The next bunch of options is related to the UK (and maybe US) services/circles who were interested in raising anti-Russian hysteria to the next level. If so, they got 100% success.

So, it would be interesting to read a professional report, e.g. by Scotland Yard. Current cries based on fakes generated in social networks and russia-phobe pseudo-journalists are not serious.

KelvinD
20th Apr 2019, 17:08
A Van: A good answer!
I would join you in your disagreement with Sallyann but perhaps ever so slightly less politely. After all, my moan referred specifically to Steepclimb's use of the phrase "last few post". Not the whole bloody lot! Implicit references? How about nurses, policemen and Theresa May; they are all implicitly part of the thread.

Sallyann1234
20th Apr 2019, 18:01
Sallyann,

May I politely disagree with you. IMHO, painting whole countries and subcontinents on the map in black or white ("good guys" or "bad guys" only) is a too primitive approach.
(snip)

I am rather sad that you read this into my post. Please read it again.
Since this whole thread is about the attack on Skripal and others by Russian agents, there is an implicit reference to Putin and Russia in every post, whether they are mentioned by name or not.
That was a reply only to KelvinD about the lack of references in posts.

Nothing in there refers in any way to "whole countries and subcontinents". As to who employed the two Russian agents, that is a different issue that I did not include, and your subsequent comments propose some interesting alternatives. I made no comment on this.

To suggest that those two men represent the entire Russian nation would be foolish in the extreme, just as it would be wrong to suggest that English football hooligans causing violence at a foreign match are representative of the whole UK. In no way did my brief post propose this.

I trust that this clarifies matters.

A_Van
21st Apr 2019, 06:15
I am rather sad that you read this into my post. Please read it again.

........

To suggest that those two men represent the entire Russian nation would be foolish in the extreme, just as it would be wrong to suggest that English football hooligans causing violence at a foreign match are representative of the whole UK. In no way did my brief post propose this.

I trust that this clarifies matters.

Yes, it does (clarify). I should not have referred to your post while typing my notes, these were just general considerations. I am sorry and apologize.

Sallyann1234
21st Apr 2019, 08:54
Thank you A_Van.

For what little it is worth, I agree with most of the possible motives that you listed for the attack.

The only certainty in my mind is that the two identified suspects were indeed involved, since their excuses for being in the area at the time were frankly laughable. If they did not actually apply the poison themselves, they were set up to be there while someone else did so.

With regard to your No.5, it is very hard to see how a UK or US authority could have arranged for those two individuals to be duped in that way, and for them to be subsequently accepted back into Russia to be interviewed on TV. It would have been a highly complex exercise, fraught with the danger of exposure at any stage by the Russian authorities.

We shall never know.

WingNut60
21st Apr 2019, 10:51
.....

We shall never know.

Now there, I do not agree.

As in the case of MH17, just because the full story is not yet available, to presume that it will never become available is not very realistic.
In both cases it is certain that there are people out there who know EXACTLY what happened.
History will tell you that it is very unlikely that they will all be able to keep their gobs shut forever.

Look at what happened, eventually, with the KAL shoot-down.
Or Iran Air Flight 655.

Eventually the story will come out.

atakacs
23rd Apr 2019, 01:58
Look at what happened, eventually, with the KAL shoot-down.
Or Iran Air Flight 655.

Err... quite the thread drift but do you think that we have the full picture on either of those tragedies ? Yes we learned quite a bit but in both cases there are still (very) gray areas.

I guess that we might eventually learn more about what really happened with the Skripals but it will very likely take time, unless we get some leak...

WingNut60
23rd Apr 2019, 02:52
...........but do you think that we have the full picture on either of those tragedies ?
Yes we learned quite a bit but in both cases there are still (very) gray areas....

No, I don't. But we probably have about 90% of the picture.
Reasonably clear but still with enough blurring to keep the conspiracy theorists happy.

In the Skripals case (and MH17) we probably only have about 10% so far.
What I am saying is that, given time, the 90% picture will resolve.

Lots of people know the full picture: the truth. Eventually some or someone will spill the beans.

Sallyann1234
23rd Apr 2019, 08:52
I guess that we might eventually learn more about what really happened with the Skripals but it will very likely take time, unless we get some leak...
We do know what really happened to the Skripals.
The open question is why.

The AvgasDinosaur
24th Apr 2019, 15:45
We do know what really happened to the Skripals.
The open question is why.
I think who is also pertinent question!
Be lucky
David