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flash8
17th Sep 2018, 15:35
Let us disassemble this a little.

There seems to be some perception that intelligence authorities in the RF are run by amateurs, rank at that, whereas nothing could be further from the truth I suspect. I'd be wary of treating them like this when the only evidence seems to be implying these two clowns worked for them in some capacity.

Additionally, whilst their travel profile looks unusual (and coincidentally directly implicates them) I do not believe they committed the poisonings, it cannot be discounted they are complicit somehow, in a peripheral way not involving any great intellect or cunning. It could well be they were set-up by circumstances that were engineered by others. Some interested parties such as Craig Murray have questioned the timings, which in my opinion is quite valid criticism of the evidence presented.

On the other hand I do believe this to be an extremely sophisticated operation meticulously planned by a State Actor, the narratives we hear are those spun by these entities to suit their nefarious purposes, and no doubt selective information leaked, the pair are quite valid to raise the point of were is the footage of them in the Cathedral and elsewhere, we are shown selective tid-bits at certain junctures to support what the State wishes. That the established Media fail to question anything I guess is just a sign of the times.

No, I still believe the real perpetrators are at large, whether this is a discredit operation or not I am still not sure, entirely possible.

PDR1
17th Sep 2018, 16:11
Perhaps the real perps are crashing on Elvis's sofa, what with Lord Lucan taking over the spare room and MH370 taking all his garage space...

PDR

Sallyann1234
17th Sep 2018, 16:21
the pair are quite valid to raise the point of were is the footage of them in the Cathedral and elsewhere, we are shown selective tid-bits at certain junctures to support what the State wishes.
And we are quite valid to ask where are the pictures which they claimed to have taken themselves at the Cathedral.

Is the obvious answer to both questions, that they were never there, too hard to accept?

VP959
17th Sep 2018, 16:23
Over the months since this attack I've looked at as much public domain information as I can find. As such, I can't see any reason for a trial in the UK to be held in camera, at the very most there might be one or two subject matter experts who prefer to give evidence from behind a screen, so only the judge, jury and advocates can see them, just to protect their public identity. That's more to do with the threats posed by people like animal rights extremists than anything else though - staff in that section of DSTL do prefer to remain anonymous, just for their own safety, as there are some real nutters around.

If these two suspects really are innocent, then if they came to trial here what possible reason could there be for even having reporting restrictions, let alone holding the trial in camera? They would have the opportunity to provide evidence in their defence, and be properly legally represented, just like anyone else, and like anyone else they would be innocent unless proved to be guilty by the evidence presented.

There are no state secrets involved here at all, the sampling and analysis techniques are those used by many other labs, the properties and formula for the agent used, and the methods by which it can be prepared and purified are all published and available to anyone with access to scientific journals over the past 30 years or so. The only area where I can see there being a possible desire to limit the publishing of evidence from the trial would be if there was a need to describe the capability of current field detection systems, but if that was needed as evidence than I'm pretty sure that the in-depth technical detail of how those sensors work wouldn't be required as evidence, just the fact that they do work would be enough, as they don't give evidential quality findings, anyway.

It's a moot point, though, as I don't think there's a hope in hell of anyone coming to trial here in the UK for these offences.

B Fraser
17th Sep 2018, 16:34
Mr Flash8 sir,

That's the puzzling part. They were a couple of clowns who appear to be the least likely candidates. I think we both agree that their story of two body building experts taking two trips to Salisbury for the purpose of inspecting gothic architecture is a load of nonsense. Don't forget, the container was disposed of in the most ridiculous way that resulted in a death. We don't appear to be talking about the cleverest of agents. There is another case we can compare it to. Do you remember Kim Jong Nam's assassination in a crowded airport. The murderer used VX which I understand is about as toxic a substance as it is possible to manufacture. The footage of the attack suggests that a fairly low level operative was used there too.

Getting back to the Skripal case, where is the evidence from the two that they visited the cathedral ? Can they not produce any credit card receipts or purchases that link them to that location ? It would be so easy for them to show an item that they purchased and demand to see the video evidence from the shop. I think the most simple explanation is that they never set foot in the cathedral. The remaining question is how they acquired the novichok. The odds of it being picked up as they arrived at Gatwick are low however it could have arrived by diplomatic bag and been handed to them in London.

I think there is a parallel in both cases in that it clearly shows that a low level operative can kill you quite easily. That's a very powerful message.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/16/kim-jong-nam-trial-key-ruling-malaysia-court

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak-ile2HUFY

A_Van
17th Sep 2018, 16:46
B Fraser,

Your comparison with poisoning at KLIA is irrelevant, and such a strange logic works rather against you.

Who invented VX? Right, Britain.

Where was it first synthesized? Yes, at Porton Down.

Here is the proof link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

So, according to your logic those women who eliminated Kim's brother were hired by western secret services who outfitted them with the substance. Absurd? Sure.

Regarding purchases at the Cathedral, lack of them means nothing. E.g., I never buy souvenirs at such places, just come in and enjoy what I see. But even if buying, Russian people usually use cash for minor purchases.

Also, I do not understand why some gents here are so excited about their mentioning the height of the building. Of course, going to the interview they expected the question about "what were you doing there". And it seems normal to look at a travel guide to refresh memory about the venue (as it was half a year ago), And while browsing through the pages those 123 m stampted. Nothing strange.
If were asked about Niagara Falls or Iguasu, I too would look back to travel booklets to recall the height and throughput. That seems normal.

The fact that those two did not send pictures to Rita only proves they are clowns. I think they simply felt sh..t of after that interview and now prefer to hide from her after she was asking them about their sexual orientation :)

But again, though I can hardly believe that those dumbs were agents of serious services mentioned here, I tend to think they are part of the picture. And (many) other pieces of the puzzles are yet to be put together.

MFC_Fly
17th Sep 2018, 17:09
So, the 2 admit that they didn't see anything on the 3rd because...

Petrov:We came to Salisbury on the March 3, we were there for, we tried to walk around the city, but since the city was covered in snow, we were able to only for a half an hour, we got wet.

Boshirov: No media, no TV channels are showing that on that day, the third, there was a collapse in that city, a snow collapse, it was impossible to go anywhere, we got wet to the knees.

Petrov: Of course we went to visit Stonehenge, Old Sarum, the cathedral of the Virgin Mary, but it didn't work out because it was slush, as we'd say in Russian, total slush. We got wet, returned to the train station and went back on the next train.

CCTV at Salisbury station show them arriving at 14:25 and leaving again at 16:10; a total time in Salisbury of 1 hour 45 minutes.

What about the 4th?

Petrov:We wanted to visit Old Sarum and the cathedral, we decided to finish this task on March 4. To visit them.

Boshirov: To see this famous cathedral, to look at Old Sarum. We saw them.

CCTV captures them walking out of Salisbury station at 11:48 and arriving back at the station at 13:50; a total time of 2 hours and 2 minutes.

So, in 2 hours they walked from the station, passed the Shell fuel station in Wilton Road, out to Old Sarum (to see that) and back into town to see the Cathederal ("Boshirov: To see this famous cathedral, to look at Old Sarum. We saw them."), and then back to the station via Fisherton Street (CCTV has them heading along that road towards the station). Now try putting that route into any navigation device (e.g. Google Maps) and lo and behold, that whole route takes about 2 hours to walk. But that is just walking, no actual sight-seeing, actually going into the tourist attractions of Old Sarum or the Cathedral.

But hang on...

Boshirov: We were sitting in the park, we were sitting in a cafe and drinking coffee. We were walking around and enjoying this English Gothic, this beauty.

So, in order to sit in the park and also sit in a cafe to drink coffee, they must have jogged around that route. But now Sallyann is suggesting they also had time to take in a guided tour of Salisbury Cathedral...

​​​​​​If they had really gone there, and were genuinely interested in its architecture, they could have arranged to join one of the guided tours by a local volunteer as I did a few years ago. The guide did tell us the height of the steeple, in feet not metres. As such enthusiasts I'm sure our Russian guests would have remembered the numbers.

So, the 2 suspects, who went via Wilton Road to Old Sarum, then via sitting in the park and a cafe for a coffee, back to the Cathedral for a guided tour, before heading back to the station via Fisherton Street - all in 2 hours? Must have been sprinting around everywhere. That was clearly not the case according to ALL the CCTV footage released thus far. :rolleyes:

DaveReidUK
17th Sep 2018, 17:11
the pair are quite valid to raise the point of where is the footage of them in the Cathedral and elsewhere

There really are only two possibilities:

a) CCTV footage of them at the cathedral exists and the authorities have chosen to suppress it
or
b) if doesn't exist, because they never went there, in which case they are being disingenuous asking about it

Neither I not any other contributors to this thread know for sure which of the above applies, but your assertion that it's valid for them to question the absence of footage can only apply to scenario (a).

So yours is a bit of a circular argument.

KelvinD
17th Sep 2018, 17:29
VP959: rials in camera do still take place here. I am racking my brains just now for the most recent. Whatever it was, it stuck in my mind because of the way the media was handled. The authorities (police, CPS, Judges & Barristers) all got together and agreed a certain number of vetted journalists would be allowed in and any notes they took were held at the High Court until the end of the trial. The journalists were allowed to give sanitised precis after each day's hearing.
Back to brain racking!

B Fraser
17th Sep 2018, 17:44
Your comparison with poisoning at KLIA is irrelevant, and such a strange logic works rather against you.

My point was that you don't need your best and brightest to administer a deadly substance. I think that secretly, you understood perfectly well.

I agree with you that lack of a purchase proves nothing but proof of a purchase supports the individual being there. I am sure that if I were to visit the Hermitage, I would have something to show for it, even a picture or two. There would probably be a camera covering the till so I could produce an artefact, give an approximate time for the purchase and demand to see the CCTV footage. Strangely, our snow-shy, body building architecture enthusiast friends are rather quiet on that subject.

I don't know about you but I can't remember the dimensions of any tourist attraction I have visited. It would be a bit weird if I could recall that Niagra Falls passes water at 567,810 litres per second. I just remember it being big, loud and wet but then again, I'm not a state assassin trying to cover my tracks.

VP959
17th Sep 2018, 17:48
VP959: rials in camera do still take place here. I am racking my brains just now for the most recent. Whatever it was, it stuck in my mind because of the way the media was handled. The authorities (police, CPS, Judges & Barristers) all got together and agreed a certain number of vetted journalists would be allowed in and any notes they took were held at the High Court until the end of the trial. The journalists were allowed to give sanitised precis after each day's hearing.
Back to brain racking!

I'm not saying they don't, but the last one I can recall involved a very large trial that was being held in two sections, for practical reasons, given the number of defendants. They didn't want the outcome of the first half of the trial to impact on the jury hearing the second half of the trial, so held the first half in camera, I believe. It's still relatively rare, though, and I don't think that the security services have any real clout when it comes to really being able to influence our independent judiciary in matters like this. If anything, the principle of "justice must be seen to have been done" carries more weight than just the desire of some agency to try and keep their ways of working secret. The compromise seems to be to agree to allow some witnesses to give evidence behind a screen, or by video link, so that their identity can be concealed.

VP959
17th Sep 2018, 18:05
B Fraser,

Your comparison with poisoning at KLIA is irrelevant, and such a strange logic works rather against you.

Who invented VX? Right, Britain.

Where was it first synthesized? Yes, at Porton Down.

Here is the proof link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

So, according to your logic those women who eliminated Kim's brother were hired by western secret services who outfitted them with the substance. Absurd? Sure.

Regarding purchases at the Cathedral, lack of them means nothing. E.g., I never buy souvenirs at such places, just come in and enjoy what I see. But even if buying, Russian people usually use cash for minor purchases.

Also, I do not understand why some gents here are so excited about their mentioning the height of the building. Of course, going to the interview they expected the question about "what were you doing there". And it seems normal to look at a travel guide to refresh memory about the venue (as it was half a year ago), And while browsing through the pages those 123 m stampted. Nothing strange.
If were asked about Niagara Falls or Iguasu, I too would look back to travel booklets to recall the height and throughput. That seems normal.

The fact that those two did not send pictures to Rita only proves they are clowns. I think they simply felt sh..t of after that interview and now prefer to hide from her after she was asking them about their sexual orientation :)

But again, though I can hardly believe that those dumbs were agents of serious services mentioned here, I tend to think they are part of the picture. And (many) other pieces of the puzzles are yet to be put together.

The basis for VX was first developed by IG Farben, in Nazi Germany. Porton Down used the wartime research that Schrader had done at IG Farben and refined it into a nerve agent. Unfortunately, they also found that VX is pretty damned useless as a weapon, as it's very like A-234, in that it is persistent in the environment and bloody hard to atomise into droplets. The stuff is relatively dense and slightly oily, again, very like A-234, which makes it hard to weaponise effectively. The reason given for not developing VX into a weapon was that it was "too toxic", which is frankly just propaganda. The real reason it wasn't weaponised is that it isn't a lot of good as a weapon, all though having it definitely frightened the living daylights out of people (as it should).

A-234 is reputed to be between 5 and 10 times more toxic than VX, but, AFAIK, no one knows for sure, as it wasn't ever properly tested. The aim of the Foliant/Novichok programme was to produce binary and less detectable agents, which I'm guessing is one reason that development of A-234 into a chemical weapon didn't go ahead.

These heavy, oily, toxic agents are only of any real use as area denial weapons, and when chemical weapons were still being developed, area denial was a relatively low priority. What was wanted was a fairly precise weapon, that would act very quickly to kill or disable everyone within a fairly well-defined area, then naturally disperse or breakdown so that people could take control of the area where the weapon had been used fairly quickly, without risk to themselves. It's one reason why agents like Sarin are still used in some places - the area where they've been used is safe to move back into within 24 hours or so, which is definitely not the case for agents like VX, Novichok-5 or A-234.

Sallyann1234
17th Sep 2018, 18:20
So, in order to sit in the park and also sit in a cafe to drink coffee, they must have jogged around that route. But now Sallyann is suggesting they also had time to take in a guided tour of Salisbury Cathedral...

I said nothing of the sort! They clearly had no time to do so.

G-CPTN
17th Sep 2018, 18:57
They never suggested that they had had a guided tour of the Cathedral - merely that they 'saw' it.

MFC_Fly
17th Sep 2018, 19:08
Originally Posted by MFC_Fly https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-post10251254.html#post10251254)So, in order to sit in the park and also sit in a cafe to drink coffee, they must have jogged around that route. But now Sallyann is suggesting they also had time to take in a guided tour of Salisbury Cathedral... I said nothing of the sort! They clearly had no time to do so.

Mmmm...
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/606204-sergei-skripal-post10250914.html#post10250914)​​​​​​If they had really gone there, and were genuinely interested in its architecture, they could have arranged to join one of the guided tours by a local volunteer as I did a few years ago. The guide did tell us the height of the steeple, in feet not metres. As such enthusiasts I'm sure our Russian guests would have remembered the numbers.

So you saying "they could have arranged to join one of the guided tours" looks like you did say something of the sort :hmm:

Not having a go at you Sallyann, just another line of non-plausable theories as to why they knew the data on the Cathederal.

arketip
17th Sep 2018, 19:18
Mmmm...


So you saying "they could have arranged to join one of the guided tours" looks like you did say something of the sort :hmm:

Not having a go at you Sallyann, just another line of non-plausable theories as to why they knew the data on the Cathederal.

Isn't "they could" different that "they did" ?

Trossie
17th Sep 2018, 19:25
I think the plausibility of their story (about visiting the wonderful city of Salisbury to see the cathedral) to a UK (or any other 'western' audience) is irrelevant.

Did the Russian audience fall for it 'hook, line and sinker'? That is where their story was aimed.

Where people like Mr "myname.org.uk" Murray and people like that may have their theories, like them or not one of the advantages of our society is that they can have those theories and voice them. I don't think that the likes of him would last long in several other societies!

Pontius Navigator
17th Sep 2018, 19:38
They never suggested that they had had a guided tour of the Cathedral - merely that they 'saw' it.
Quite, I have seen St Paul's, I have seen Westminster Abbey, I have been in neither. I have seen Stonehenge but I didn't stop.

Sallyann1234
17th Sep 2018, 21:21
Look, no one said they had taken a guided tour.
The only mention of a guided tour was that I said I had been on one a few years ago, led by an extremely knowledgeable volunteer guide.
The two Russians could have had a guided tour if they had booked it and had time, but they clearly did not. That's all.

KelvinD
17th Sep 2018, 22:54
And just to make sure the pitch remains "queered", I have just been told by my brother that the Russian government has taken the serial number of the missile that shot down MH17 (from photos supplied as part of the Dutch investigation) and shown that the missile was manufactured near Moscow and shipped to Ukraine in 1986. Oh dear!

TEEEJ
17th Sep 2018, 23:46
And just to make sure the pitch remains "queered", I have just been told by my brother that the Russian government has taken the serial number of the missile that shot down MH17 (from photos supplied as part of the Dutch investigation) and shown that the missile was manufactured near Moscow and shipped to Ukraine in 1986. Oh dear!

Just more smoke and mirrors from the Russians. That briefing by the Russian Ministry of Defence was cringe worthy. During the 2008 Russia-Georgia conflict even elements of the Russian media were reporting that Russian forces were capturing Buk systems that had been supplied from Ukraine. The very same unit in Ukraine that the Russian Ministry of Defence briefed on. The question is that surely the Russian Ministry of Defence knew this?

From 2008 Google translation.

On closer examination, it turned out that the installations in 2007 were transferred from Ukraine to Georgia by sea - the loading sheets for ships (wooden planks) were still attached to the sides of the vehicles.

From

?????? ?????? ??????????? (http://old.redstar.ru/2008/10/08_10/2_03.html)

Found by this researcher from Georgia. See detailed article and images of those ex-Ukrainian Buks captured by Russia.

? ??????, ??????? ??????????? ????? - cyxymu.info (http://www.cyxymu.info/2018/09/MH17-9M38.html)

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/646x359/bukgeorgia_e2d1d4df403453231dc7aa0562d6abdaddf9f2af.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x739/georgia_8d832d29e852cdc739e44843d935a8c0d32c5b5b.jpg
This Russian media article from 2008 even mentions the Ukrainian unit (223rd) where the captured Buks came from.

https://iz.ru/news/341307

Google translation

The results of the commission's investigation can have far-reaching consequences. First, the Ukrainian president, supporting the aggressor, should have been aware of the consequences of his actions. Secondly, having ordered 7 complexes of Buk-M1 to be transferred to Georgia, Viktor Yushchenko caused a colossal damage to the defense capability of Ukraine. And, as it is now documented, this was warned about it. In the opinion of the deputies of the Verkhovna Rada, this can lead to impeachment to the president.

- The Buk-M1 complexes were withdrawn from combat duty, and the 223rd rocket regiment simply proved to be incapacitated, said Valery Konovalyuk, the head of the commission for investigating the arms shipments of the Verkhovna Rada, commenting on Izvestia. - It turns out that we at the expense of our combat readiness have armed the aggressor in the Caucasus.

A_Van
18th Sep 2018, 06:50
This thread is about Skripal, isn't it? What hell the Ukrainian Buk is discussed here, there should be a separate topic on that.
But to close this, just a couple of sentences.
This "new round" started after a so-called JIT had shown the serial number of the missile. Then it was not a difficult job for the Russians to trace this particular item after it was manufactured during the SU times. So, it was sent to West Ukraine in 1986 (proof docs exist) and was never returned back.
The version about Georgia is nonsense. Buk-1 is a very old version, all of them were garbaged in Russia long ago. Even if anything was left by the Georgians running away, Russia did not need them and would garbage them either.
Imagine you found some second-hand Phantoms in a 3rd country, would you integrate them in your AF?

B Fraser
18th Sep 2018, 07:52
Comrade Van,

A little bit of research would reveal that a number of items were spirited back to the UK after the Falklands war and were ….errrrrrrrr…...ummmm…… "re-purposed". For example, it would have been a shame to leave a couple of Augusta 109's outside in the wind and rain. As for that AAA kit ?

Of course, Russia would never do such a thing and all of the very extensive evidence for the movements of the Buk transporters is purely western capitalist propaganda. It was probably created by the same people who magically removed all of the snow from the CCTV pictures in Salisbury ;)

Sallyann1234
18th Sep 2018, 08:06
Imagine you found some second-hand Phantoms in a 3rd country, would you integrate them in your AF?
It can be worth keeping a few old weapons for special purposes.

Rather like Novichok. To keep the thread on track. :ok:

PDR1
18th Sep 2018, 08:50
If you look in the air museum at Kracow you will find several american aircraft which the NVA grabbed from the south vietnamese when they advanced, and these aircraft had clearly been used before being passed down the line to end up in museums. There's a Northrop F5 in rather good condition, for instance.

PDR

TEEEJ
18th Sep 2018, 12:10
The version about Georgia is nonsense. Buk-1 is a very old version, all of them were garbaged in Russia long ago. Even if anything was left by the Georgians running away, Russia did not need them and would garbage them either.
Imagine you found some second-hand Phantoms in a 3rd country, would you integrate them in your AF?

That is nonsense to claim that the Russians didn't still have earlier "Buk-1s" in service.

The claims spouted at the time on RT was

The company also said that the last missile of this type was produced in the Soviet Union in 1986, that its life span is 25 years including all prolongations, and that all missiles of this type were decommissioned from the Russian Army in 2011.

From

https://www.rt.com/news/318531-mh17-experiment-almaz-antey/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS

Despite this claim the Russian Army was still using the 9M38M1s. Many of these early types are used for training and test launches. 9M38M1s were still being fired in 2014 and 2015. Even launches were recorded and available on Russian forces TV in 2015!

9M38M1 being used by Russian forces during 2014. You'll see a mixture of training rounds and live. Yes they are actually firing them at Telemba! You can see the dates on the screens at 2:13 (19th March 2014).

-OeyDHDaYOk

9M38M1 being transported during 2014 Belgorod, Russia.

OJPxt7XrG6Q

Most of the research into the earlier Buk systems still being in service was conducted by "Lena". See comments during 2015. Not suprisingly some of the videos that appeared on the Russian Army TV Channel showing early Buks still in service have since been removed.

Comments.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/06/03/evidence-the-russian-military-supplied-the-type-of-missile-used-to-shoot-down-mh17/#comments

I also now note that a video from 2014 showing Putin watching a Buk M1 missile launched has been removed from the internet. I wonder why? The screen on the exercise presentation was even captioned "Buk M1".

A_Van
18th Sep 2018, 14:21
TEEEJ,

The discussion was focused on that particular missile with the part number showed by the JIT or whoever were they. That particular item was sent to Ukraine and remained there. That's the fact. Then everyone is free to let his imagination fly as high as he wants.

Everything was crystal clear on the day of the tragedy. Incompetent and untrained personnel of the Ukrainian army shot down this Malaysian plane. Exactly in the same way as they shot down (by S-200) a Tu-154 flying from Israel over Black Sea in early 2000 during a drill.
There were dozen of the operative Buks on that day along the MH route, Buks arrived from different parts of Ukraine a couple of days before. And after that Ukraine became part of an investigation team! A main suspect works in a team with an investigator - nonsense.

I am not impressed with faked stories generated by professional civil provocators and russia-phobes like Bellincat & Co. Their videos were proved to be faked by computer graphics experts. Stories in social networks were faked too, most of them came from Ukraine (so that even fees were not needed to spend by the sponsors).

Maybe return back to Skripal?

TEEEJ
18th Sep 2018, 20:51
TEEEJ,

I am not impressed with faked stories generated by professional civil provocators and russia-phobes like Bellincat & Co. Their videos were proved to be faked by computer graphics experts. Stories in social networks were faked too, most of them came from Ukraine (so that even fees were not needed to spend by the sponsors).

Good grief you really are deep down the conspiracy rabbit hole! The videos were not faked. The question is why are you falling for such nonsense from Russian Ministry of Defence? For those wanting to view the Russian Ministry of Defence briefing with English transcription.

See from 12:00 for the analysis by their "top Russian experts". It is just laughable and they desperately need that footage to go away!

wLBpLVwa-lM

Of particular note is the original "Buk on a truck" video.

CnSHQ2E8Qow

Embarrassingly this is still on the UK Russian Embassy website.

The good example of such fact is that some mass media showed transportation of the Buk-M1 missile system from Ukrainian to Russian territory.We can clearly see that its frame-up. These pictures were made in the city of Krasnoarmeisk that is confirmed by a banner situated close to the road. This banner has an address of the car shop situated at the Dnepropetrovskaya, 34. Since May 11 the Krasnoarmeysk city is under control of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

https://www.rusemb.org.uk/press/1865

It is just constant lies from the Russian Ministry of Defence in regards to that video. It wasn't filmed in Krasnoarmeisk and there was no Dnepropetrovskaya car shop banner. It was filmed in Luhansk but just like the recent briefing the Russian Ministry was lying back then too.

This is what they claimed was on the billboard.

https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Russian-board.jpg

The reality of what the actual billboard in Luhansk sported.

https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/billboard-fake.jpg

From (Scroll down to see what happened to that poster after the Russian MoD found itself slightly embarrassed!)

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/05/29/whos-lying-an-in-depth-analysis-of-the-luhansk-buk-video/

These videos desperately need to go away and you have fallen for the idiotic Russian Ministry of Defence first claiming that they have been filmed in other towns and now just being computer generated.

The same goes for the later released videos of the Buk on a trailer in convoy. The Russian Ministry of Defence is desperately trying to "analyse" low quality copies. The JIT has the higher quality videos as does Eliot Higgins of Bellingcat. The video that was released
is low quality and is not the full footage. Part of that is to protect the identity of the person that filmed it. You can see from the following Twitter discussion where part of the HD copy is superimposed over the footage in the public domain.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1041623599445147653

Also take into consideration that this Volvo truck and trailer has been identified and also noted in regular use by pro-Russian forces.

Recently discovered video clearly shows Volvo truck and lowloader with phonenumber on yellow sign What happened to flight MH17? (http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/recently-discovered-video-clearly-shows-volvo-truck-and-lowloader-with-phonenumber-on-yellow-sign/)

Of course all this by your standards will have been faked/computer generated and all because you believe the Russian MoD lies.

atakacs
18th Sep 2018, 21:14
People, any chance to get back on track?
I don't know what happened with the Skripals but I'm pretty sure no SAM was involved...

flash8
18th Sep 2018, 21:20
Naturally you can depend on Flash to give you a completely unbiased opinion.... but on the topic of MH17 I think it could be argued that the Ukrainians had far more to gain than the Russians, given around that time the Russian General Staff were chuckling they could "Take Kiev in two days"... Ukraine would not have stood a chance, and disinformation was one of the few "weapons" they had to avail themselves of, and downing a passenger jet for propaganda purposes is quite a coup.

The problem with MH17 and with Skripal to a lesser extent is there is so much "noise" and disinformation, much of it under the guise "facts" from allegedly reputable sources that actually stripping way the superfluity leaves you with very little, certainly not enough to say anything definitively. Add to that we are drip-fed selectively.

However with sites like Bellingcat that operate under the guise of so called "open source information" (implying some form of truth) is that such can be twisted any way one wishes, and in their case, anti-Russian, they don't even try and hide it, I guess they are preaching to the converted.

KelvinD
18th Sep 2018, 22:44
Bellingcat slipped up a couple of days ago when criticising the Russian authorities over a video, saying the "Russians obviously don't have access to the video material that Bellingcat has". This from an organisation that states all their material is from open sources.
Well, what is it? It can be one or the other but it can't be both!

Pontius Navigator
19th Sep 2018, 06:52
It is possible that 'open source' gathered by a media person was either not made available to Government agents or the GA do not use uncorroborated open source.

It used to be so in UK, but look at the Charlie Foxtrot in 2003 when TB used uncorroborated information to support GWB.

davews
19th Sep 2018, 08:09
People, any chance to get back on track?
I don't what happened with the Skripals but I'm pretty sure no SAM was involved...

Indeed. Some of us come here specifically to hear of updates on the Skripal saga. MH17related stuff has no relevance in this thread.

KelvinD
19th Sep 2018, 08:16
'Open Source', by definition, is available to all and sundry. Governments are not excluded.

Fitter2
19th Sep 2018, 09:52
KelvinD:
Bellingcat slipped up a couple of days ago when criticising the Russian authorities over a video, saying the "Russians obviously don't have access to the video material that Bellingcat has". This from an organisation that states all their material is from open sources.
Well, what is it? It can be one or the other but it can't be both!

As you are (according to your profile) a resident of Hampshire, I am sure you are familiar with the concepts of irony and sarcasm. Is it possible that Bellingcat were pointing out in a way too subtle for you the probability of the Russian Ministry having no access to the same real information.

We can, of course, learn from other cultures - the present paragon of virtue and honesty, President Trump has fully embraced the doctrine of 'alternative truths' form his bosom friend President Putin.

As for the relevance, a long history of dissembling and deliberate misinformation from Russian official sources, stooges, trolls and 'useful idiots' (to use Comrade Djugashvili's description) is relevant to the veracity of statements supporting their opinions on current events.

Pontius Navigator
19th Sep 2018, 10:15
'Open Source', by definition, is available to all and sundry. Governments are not excluded.
Kelvin, while that is true, I know from experience that open source is often ignored or treated with circumspection.

Shandy52
19th Sep 2018, 10:16
A main suspect works in a team with an investigator - nonsense.

Sorry for the mess, my irony meter just exploded.

Maybe return back to Skripal?

Perhaps wisest.

BehindBlueEyes
19th Sep 2018, 18:16
Jumping on the bandwagon perhaps?

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16888124.russian-model-anna-shapiro-claims-to-be-woman-who-fell-ill-in-salisbury-prezzo/?cmpid=cmt

TEEEJ
19th Sep 2018, 20:19
Bellingcat slipped up a couple of days ago when criticising the Russian authorities over a video, saying the "Russians obviously don't have access to the video material that Bellingcat has". This from an organisation that states all their material is from open sources.
Well, what is it? It can be one or the other but it can't be both!

The video was and still is open source. What Elliot from Bellingcat is referring to is the quality of the video. I explained that in my previous post. Bellingcat obtained the full high definition video from the person that filmed it in Ukraine. The video was then passed onto the MH17 Joint Investigation Team. The low quality video that is open source is protect the identity of the person that filmed it.

See following which has the open source video

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2016/05/12/9248/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvwH0T2WCN0

The Russians Ministry of Defence are trying to do their "expert analysis" on that open source video and failed miserably when they claimed that it was "computer generated". They desperately need to make such videos "go away".

See following where Elliot of Bellingcat shows a still from the higher definition video.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1041625863224221696

The following person superimposed the higher definition still over the low quality video and verifies the claim.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/580x438/buktruck_ecd79f3a1f3b1150f8553c8a5198455f1f598964.jpg

TEEEJ
19th Sep 2018, 20:42
Jumping on the bandwagon perhaps?

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16888124.russian-model-anna-shapiro-claims-to-be-woman-who-fell-ill-in-salisbury-prezzo/?cmpid=cmt



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/588x437/hoax_ffda1d8fb3fab70026b70a601fa7b342318850c3.jpg
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/19/salisburys-saga-the-spy-the-supermodel-the-strychnine-and-thats-just-the-sub-plot

DaveReidUK
19th Sep 2018, 21:03
The video was and still is open source. What Elliot from Bellingcat is referring to is the quality of the video.

I'm trying to resist the urge to ask the mods to close this thread, since it appears to have gone terminally off-topic.

TEEEJ
19th Sep 2018, 21:07
The seedy world of marketing.

A pair of Russian men suspected of poisoning a former double agent and his daughter in Britain will reportedly be awarded a trademark for the production of chemical compounds and perfume.

British prosecutors accused two Russians they said were operating under aliases — Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov — of attempting to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal with a military-grade nerve agent in March. Two Russians resembling the men said on television last week that they were innocent tourists who had flown to London for fun and visited the city of Salisbury to see its cathedral at the time of the attack.

Russia’s Golden Brand company has applied to trademark the phrase “Petroff & Boshiroff,” its spokesperson told The Moscow Times on Wednesday.

"After the name gets registered, we will gift it to Bashirov and Petrov, and they can start a company if they want,” a spokesperson for the company said.

"We did it as a marketing tool; it's good for public relations," she added.

The trademark will allow its holders to manufacture and sell industrial chemicals and perfume, as well as operate fitness centers and travel agencies, the Moskva news agency reported.

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/russian-company-award-salisbury-poisoning-suspects-with-trademark-for-chemicals-production-62925

G-CPTN
19th Sep 2018, 21:29
Do customers who buy these perfumes and industrial chemicals have any guarantee as to what product they receive? or is it a game of Russian roulette?

I think we should be told . . .

TEEEJ
20th Sep 2018, 18:37
Bellingcat have published an article on Petrov and Boshirov. Interesting details on a GRU officer whose cover was blown and appears in the same batch of passport numbers as Petrov and Boshirov's.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/20/skripal-suspects-confirmed-gru-operatives-prior-european-operations-disclosed/

ShotOne
21st Sep 2018, 09:43
More importantly than what any of us here think, the view IN RUSSIA following the TV interview has been hilarity. An organisation which used to instil fear now provokes open mirth and ridicule.

Shandy52
21st Sep 2018, 11:24
A couple of bits of speculation:
1) Did Putin organise that TV interview specifically to make the GRU look stupid? I'm thinking of his KGB background here.
2) All of the trolls seem to have gone quiet at once. Is it possible that they were all aliases for one individual?

VP959
21st Sep 2018, 11:42
A couple of bits of speculation:
1) Did Putin organise that TV interview specifically to make the GRU look stupid? I'm thinking of his KGB background here.
2) All of the trolls seem to have gone quiet at once. Is it possible that they were all aliases for one individual?

Given that Vladimir Putin is a generally very switched on and sharp individual, who has a reputation for bringing things under tight control, I can't help but think that comedy act, which seems to have pretty much been ordered by him, was for internal consumption within Russia, and possibly as a way of showing up failings within the GRU (assuming these guys were/are GRU).

I've never thought that this was an actively state-sponsored action, ordered by the Russian government, but that it was more likely to be a maverick operation aimed at both getting rid of a traitor and trying to curry favour within government. Given the overall failure of the operation it does seem possible that producing the two individuals on TV, with that ludicrous account of their visits to Salisbury, was intended to make them, and whoever they were/are working for, look stupid (which it undoubtedly has done).

I doubt we'll hear any more about those two, or that they will ever face justice here, now that they've had their moment of infamy on RT.

fitliker
21st Sep 2018, 12:14
The cloak of secrecy will always obscure the truth . Trust has been destroyed by corrupted Politicians spewing out different " Official versions" .
After they sexed up the Iraq Intel , I would not trust anything they say about WMD s ever again.

What is wrong with killing a few traitors ? The liars should have their tongues cut out first , before being hung drawn and quartered in the Tower :)

racedo
21st Sep 2018, 21:29
Naturally you can depend on Flash to give you a completely unbiased opinion.... but on the topic of MH17 I think it could be argued that the Ukrainians had far more to gain than the Russians, given around that time the Russian General Staff were chuckling they could "Take Kiev in two days"... Ukraine would not have stood a chance, and disinformation was one of the few "weapons" they had to avail themselves of, and downing a passenger jet for propaganda purposes is quite a coup.


A conversation on a plane with a US Military member pretty much confirmed that in 2014 Ukraine's total trained and capable military was less than 20,000 people and his analysis on state of equipment was that the worst US National Guard outfit could have taken the country..

Bearing in mind if they had wanted the Russians could have put military in from North and East from Russia, from Crimea and also from Transnistria then nobody including Pentagon believed they had ever a single intention of doing anything....................... said individual pretty much confirmed this.
Interesting he said those in Ukrainian Govt wanted HRC to win because they believed US would out in thousands of troops and billions in arms................. he said they all saw it as a way of making millions from the US.

Interesting that Ukraine is losing approx 1 million people a year in migration.

Sallyann1234
22nd Sep 2018, 09:04
A couple of bits of speculation:
2) All of the trolls seem to have gone quiet at once. Is it possible that they were all aliases for one individual?
No, there really are so many. As soon as there is some new information, you will see them again.
​They are just in resting mode at the moment, like flies on the wall waiting for a new bit of meat to lay their eggs in.

VP959
22nd Sep 2018, 09:57
The police are investigating the latest incident as a deliberate hoax; apparently the man involved perpetrated a hoax on Prince Charles some time ago, and it looks like the two of them may have made up this whole incident as some sort of bizarre joke. Hopefully they will be charged and found guilty of an offence serious enough to go some way towards deterring them from doing anything so bloody stupid again.

FWIW, the man who was allegedly poisoned, Alex King, has a conviction for distributing indecent images of children, as well as the Prince Charles hoax that was allegedly part of a bet with his former employer, who was a convicted fraudster. His wife, Anna Shapiro, is Israeli (although of Russian descent), and she claims it wasn't a hoax. The media are making up stuff, as usual, and claiming she is Russian and was targeted, all of which is almost certainly untrue. I suspect that a fair bit of what she's allegedly said to the media is aimed solely at self-promotion - she runs a company that manages events, apparently, so any publicity is probably seen as good for her business as far as she is concerned.

There doesn't seem to be any clear evidence that either of them were actually poisoned by anyone that I've been able to find. Their antics have cost a lot of money, as well as causing reputational harm to the restaurant. It's certainly something that's angered a lot of local people, as the last thing Salisbury needs are "jokers" pulling stupid stunts like this right now.

racedo
23rd Sep 2018, 20:31
Interesting on another site it is suggesting that said Individuals are Private Security Couriers and reason for Salisbury visit is they were dropping off and picking up documents that needed signing by someone.

Sallyann1234
23rd Sep 2018, 22:35
Interesting on another site it is suggesting that said Individuals are Private Security Couriers and reason for Salisbury visit is they were dropping off and picking up documents that needed signing by someone.
You find that interesting? :D
Your handlers are really scraping the barrel now.

racedo
23rd Sep 2018, 22:46
You find that interesting? :D
Your handlers are really scraping the barrel now.

Are yours are feeding you koolaid so much it has fried your brain.

PDR1
24th Sep 2018, 12:40
Frying things in koolaid is rarely effective - you'd be better advised to use one of the range of cooking oils available in all western supermarkets. I appreciate that they may not have covered this during your basic KGB training, probably because soviet-era shops (GUM etc) usually only offered used transmission oil for frying (although admitedly it probably improved the paletability of the dubious meats they offered).

HTH,

PDR

flash8
25th Sep 2018, 17:35
probably because soviet-era shops (GUM etc) usually only offered used transmission oil for fryingOff topic, but GUM and TsUM were the premier shopping locations in the Soviet Union (and are today in the RF) and generally offered goods out of reach of the average Soviet consumer (I was told at the time I was the first customer to buy a Satellite phone from TsUM back in 1998 on the day they first displayed them, getting a SIM in Moscow to make it run was a long story afterwards).

All quiet on the Skripal front, I do hope some amazing revelation comes up to astound us, and given previous form I am sure it will.. just a matter of time.

VP959
25th Sep 2018, 18:21
All quiet on the Skripal front, I do hope some amazing revelation comes up to astound us, and given previous form I am sure it will.. just a matter of time.

I doubt we'll hear anything more of any consequence. The two main suspects seem to have gone to ground, and I very much doubt that any evidential material will be released to the public domain. The absence of any extradition agreement means that, even if the two main suspects surface, they cannot answer any questions put to them about their movements and alleged actions in Salisbury by the UK investigation team. I doubt that the government of the RF will release any more information than they already have. I strongly suspect that putting those two on TV was primarily aimed at the Russian audience, rather than an international one.

The international community aren't likely to take any further action, as they will be balancing the pros and cons of continuing to raise this so long after the event. The fly in the ointment is the future of the Skripals, particularly Yulia. She remains a Russian citizen, and hasn't committed any crime, yet she may well remain at risk. Her brother's death seems less than straightforward, and it seems at least possible that it wasn't by natural causes. Sergei's future is pre-ordained, he made his choice years ago and now has to live with the consequences, even if they involve living in a secret location for the rest of his life. His daughter has done nothing wrong though, so what will she choose to do?

atakacs
26th Sep 2018, 13:51
I doubt we'll hear anything more of any consequence.
Very much depends on the occidental government agenda, especially the UK - I wouldn't be the least surprised that we get some further "proof" of the Russian evilness. Looking forward for snap election and/or Brexit do over.
The fly in the ointment is the future of the Skripals, particularly Yulia. She remains a Russian citizen, and hasn't committed any crime, yet she may well remain at risk. Her brother's death seems less than straightforward, and it seems at least possible that it wasn't by natural causes. Sergei's future is pre-ordained, he made his choice years ago and now has to live with the consequences, even if they involve living in a secret location for the rest of his life. His daughter has done nothing wrong though, so what will she choose to do?
That assumes they have a say in the matter - I personally doubt it, but I wish her (don't have much sympathy for Sergei) all the best.

TEEEJ
26th Sep 2018, 16:06
Skripal Suspect Boshirov Identified as GRU Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/

pulse1
26th Sep 2018, 16:52
Even Jeremy Corbyn has decreed in his Conference speech today that the evidence clearly says it was the Russian State who carried out this crime!:yuk:

flash8
26th Sep 2018, 17:33
Even Jeremy Corbyn has decreed in his Conference speech today that the evidence clearly says it was the Russian State who carried out this crime!Suspect he was flogged by his closest colleagues to say as much.... whether he truly believes it of course is another matter. He may very well become the next PM and it is quite possible that his narrative might diverge then :) This isn't slighting him but a hard fact.

Skripal Suspect Boshirov Identified as GRU Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-a...toliy-chepiga/ (https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/)Unfortunately the source is Bellingcat, whose funding really needs far greater scrutiny. Sorry to say that I'd give it more credence (although still little) if it came from mainstream media.

Shandy52
26th Sep 2018, 17:45
I suggest you read the details of Bellingcat's investigation, published on their website, and let us know what faults you find in it.

I'm sure we can wait.

structor
26th Sep 2018, 18:00
Folks, I don't post here very often. But I can't help wondering if we have Trolls and Agents among us. For example Flash8? I do not want to be impolite but I do seem to detect patterns?

DaveReidUK
26th Sep 2018, 18:13
Suspect he was flogged by his closest colleagues to say as much.... whether he truly believes it of course is another matter. He may very well become the next PM and it is quite possible that his narrative might diverge then :)

This isn't slighting him but a hard fact.

Is that another way of saying that it's hard to find any facts in your assertion ?

flash8
26th Sep 2018, 18:33
Folks, I don't post here very often. But I can't help wondering if we have Trolls and Agents among us. For example Flash8? I do not want to be impolite but I do seem to detect patterns?I have far better things to do than "troll" online... believe me, for example consuming vodka and placating the ice lady. However as befits somebody promoted way beyond their station in the Corporate world I spend most of the day being extremely well paid idling at my workstation trying to fight my boredom... hence my unbiased contributions ;)

Is that another way of saying that it's hard to find any facts in your assertion ?I did qualify my writing with "I suspect" so yes it was a value judgement.

clareprop
26th Sep 2018, 18:47
Unfortunately the source is Bellingcat,

And The Daily Telegraph....of course, despite the photographic evidence, we'll now start hearing about Photoshopping etc....

TEEEJ
26th Sep 2018, 19:30
And The Daily Telegraph....of course, despite the photographic evidence, we'll now start hearing about Photoshopping etc....

It doesn't help when the Telegraph and the Daily Mail don't read the image captions on Bellingcat. Bellingcat make it clear that the image from Chechnya is not Chepiga.

"Photo of DVOKU graduates on assignment in Chechnya, undated. Bellingcat does not claim that the person on the right is Chepiga; photograph included for completeness of research process only"

From

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/

First image at following link where the Daily Mail mess up.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6210951/Smirking-Salisbury-hitman-unmasked-decorated-GRU-colonel.html

Shandy52
26th Sep 2018, 22:04
Folks, I don't post here very often. But I can't help wondering if we have Trolls and Agents among us. For example Flash8? I do not want to be impolite but I do seem to detect patterns?

I think if you look back through the thread - a rather daunting idea now - you'll find several of them. I wouldn't deprive you of the pleasure of identifying them yourself :-)

Sallyann1234
26th Sep 2018, 22:21
Another poisoning victim?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45658983

ORAC
27th Sep 2018, 05:50
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/Skripal Suspect Boshirov Identified as GRU Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga
Bellingcat has been able to confirm the actual identity of one of the two officers. The suspect using the cover identity of “Ruslan Boshirov” is in fact Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga, a highly decorated GRU officer bestowed with Russia’s highest state award, Hero of the Russian Federation. Following Bellingcat’s own identification, multiple sources familiar with the person and/or the investigation have confirmed the suspect’s identity. This finding eliminates any remaining doubt that the two suspects in the Novichok poisonings were in fact Russian officers operating on a clandestine government mission.........Who is Colonel Chepiga?Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga was born on 5 April 1979, in the far-eastern village of Nikolaevka in the Amur oblast, population 300, near the Russia-China border. At age 18, he enrolled at a military school just 40 kilometers from his home, the Far-Eastern Military Command Academy in Blagoveschensk, one of Russia’s elite training grounds for marine commandos and Spetsnaz officers.

Anatoliy Chepiga graduated the academy with honors (http://kursant.mil.ru/datainfo.xlsx) in 2001. He was then assigned to serve in the 14th Spetsnaz Brigade (https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/russia/spetsnaz-orbat.htm) in Russia’s farthest-eastern city of Khabarovsk, one of the elite Spetsnaz units under GRU command. Chepiga’s unit (74854, formerly 20662) played a key role in the second Chechen War, and was also observed near the Ukrainian border (http://sprotyv.info/en/node/6233) in late 2014.

Over the course of his assignment to the 14th Spetsnaz Brigade, Colonel Chepiga was deployed three times to Chechnya. The specific operations he was involved in are not known; however, a website of a far-eastern branch of a state-run military volunteer organization reports that he received (http://www.dosaaf28.ru/stati/patrioticheskaja-rabota/gerojam-otechestva-posvjaschaetsja.html) over 20 military awards in the course of his service.

At some point between 2003 (the last year we identified him at the 14thSpetsnaz Brigade in Khabarovsk) and 2010 (the year he received his first undercover passport), Anatoliy Chepiga was assigned his alter ego, “Ruslan Boshirov”, and was relocated to Moscow. Given his current rank of Colonel and function as a clandestine GRU officer, it is plausible that during this period he graduated from the Military Diplomatic Academy (https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol10no4/html/v10i4a04p_0001.htm), also known as the “GRU Conservatory,” in Moscow.

In December 2014, Colonel Chepiga was awarded Russia’s highest state award (http://award.gov.ru/hero.html), Hero of the Russian Federation.This award is bestowed personally by the President (http://en.kremlin.ru/catalog/glossary/9) of Russia “as recognition of services to the state and the people of Russia involving a heroic deed”.

Most of the awards are handed out in public ceremonies – and accompanied by a presidential decree, such as the award (https://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2732323) in 2016 to Russian officers fighting in Syria. Other presidential decrees – when the underlying act of heroism is subject to state secrecy – are kept secret. This is the case with the award to Colonel Chepiga. While there is no publicly issued decree – or reference to him on the Kremlin website – the state-run volunteer website specifies (http://www.dosaaf28.ru/stati/patrioticheskaja-rabota/gerojam-otechestva-posvjaschaetsja.html) that he received the award “in December 2014…for conducting a peace-keeping mission.”

Indeed, the fact that Colonel Chepiga was bestowed the Hero of Russia award is announced (http://www.dvocu.ru/index/alleja_geroev/0-36) on the website of his military school. While most other recipients of the award have a detailed description of the acts that resulted in the recognition, the last two recipients – Anatoliy Chepiga and Alexander Popov – received only a terse statement: “by decree from the Russian president.” This further implies that the mission he – or they – were awarded for was secret.

The phrasing and timing of the award provides significant clues as to where Colonel Chepiga’s mission was. In 2014, there were no military activities in Chechnya. Russia had not engaged militarily in Syria yet. The only region in which Russia was conducting active military operations in secrecy at the time was in Eastern Ukraine, which is the most likely theatre of his mission, as suggested by the secrecy of his award.

Anatoliy Chepiga is married and has one child..........

KelvinD
27th Sep 2018, 06:33
Sometimes, it seems to me Bellingcat has better sources within the Russian government than does Vladimir Putin!
All of the article quoted here proves sod all. Obviously not written by Bellingcat. It makes much of the awards, medals etc awarded to this bloke. And? When I was in the mob, we used to laugh at U.S. servicemen getting medals for crossing the Atlantic, putting their boots on the correct feet etc.
As for the Pussy Riot man, the hospital where he was treated said there is no trace of poisons in his system, although they did add a caveat that "there was no other explanation". How about this for a theory; he had just undergone what was presumably a very frightening and stressful experience in a Russian court. Shock can do strange and serious things to a body!

atakacs
27th Sep 2018, 06:50
I personally have no doubt that Belingcat is very close, if not directly, Mi6. That doesn't make their material uninteresting, just have to remember where it is icomming from.
On that specific case the analysis - completely non open source - is interesting. If this guy is really top GRU Colonel Chepiga Russia has to be very worried for the secret service as their operational skills as nothing short of grotesque. Can anyone seriously think that a high ranking GRU operative would be that sloppy ?

TEEEJ
27th Sep 2018, 07:23
Sometimes, it seems to me Bellingcat has better sources within the Russian government than does Vladimir Putin!
All of the article quoted here proves sod all. Obviously not written by Bellingcat. It makes much of the awards, medals etc awarded to this bloke. And?

Why is it always denial, denial, denial? So what happens when the real identity of Petrov is revealed? Will it just be more denial and "sod all"? Why can't it simply be written by the Bellingcat team? It isn't Bellingcat's fault that the passport data is available on the black market. It isn't Bellingcat's fault that individuals within those agencies sold out. It isn't Bellingcat's fault that Russian security services failed to secure such info? It appears that there is now a mad scramble within Russia to find the individual(s).

On Tuesday, however, Russia’s security agency, the FSB, appeared to be making a belated effort to limit the fallout. According to the Rosbalt Information agency, agents had begun to conduct urgent searches at the Interior Ministry – the source, they believe, of the passport information that found its way to Bellingcat.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/salisbury-attack-russia-sergei-skripal-security-fsb-leaks-black-market-petrov-bashirov-a8554521.html

TEEEJ
27th Sep 2018, 07:55
Good grief it gets worse. Craig Murray proving what an idiot he is! No doubt he will be on Russia Today telling them all about his "in-depth analysis of noses"

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/625x904/murrayidiot_f7eb33f3ee5c12098e339c6e6a7dcc0ca571ca60.jpg

ShotOne
27th Sep 2018, 08:22
"Article proves sod all..."? On the contrary, it shows there is a Russian intelligence officer who bears a very very close resemblance to the murder suspect. Even if his history and decorations were false, they were fabricated years before this case.

Unfortunately, every increasingly far-fetched denial from Russia and her apologists just makes them look more ridiculous.

KelvinD
27th Sep 2018, 08:42
Teej: Why can't it simply be written by the Bellingcat team? Bellingcat is a British based outfit, led by a British man. Check the spelling etc in the quoted piece. That was written by an American.
There was no "denial, denial, denial" in my post. I am thoroughly sceptical about Bellingcat. A bloke who started writing a blog for something to do, having been made redundant and, virtually overnight, he is seen to be outperforming MI6, CIA et al?
An organisation that makes much of the claim that they use "open source" material and then comes up with the passport info on a Russian citizen?
In my view, output from Bellingcat should be judged in the same light as the nonsense emanating from the UK government and the Russian government. With raised eyebrows and a curled lip!

Sallyann1234
27th Sep 2018, 08:43
Craig Murray is a very bitter man.

ShotOne
27th Sep 2018, 09:09
“Thoroughly sceptical of Bellingcat “. Fine: They have contributors from many countries and not focused just on Russia. Be sceptical but please make clear what exactly you’re disputing. If it’s the existence of this GRU Colonel, there are multiple sources within Russia -someone even engraved his name on a monument. Or is it you just don’t believe anyone but CIA or Mi6 would be capable of uncovering the evidence?

currawong
27th Sep 2018, 10:24
Regardless of what anyone says, I reckon they look pretty "handy" for "business men".:E

flash8
27th Sep 2018, 10:51
A bloke who started writing a blog for something to do, having been made redundant and, virtually overnight, he is seen to be outperforming MI6, CIA et al?Bellingcat is little more than a shill for Western governments, and likely funded by them, as well as being sourced information from them, true, or otherwise. This is not my conclusion from the Skripal thing but the history of Bellingcat going back (from day one) showing a significant Russian bias, sometimes completely unadulterated spite that has no bearing on any issue discussed.

No doubt I'll be accused of being an "apologist for Putin", however I am genuinely only interested in the truth, whomever that implicates, but some of the tripe being presented has to really make you think twice. That the site (Bellingcat) is quoted liberally by the Western media (or at least UK media) is of no surprise, their narrative mesh perfectly. I suspect folk like Luke Harding (not a convincing Journalist) and Bill Browder (not at all convincing) have their hand in this pie as well.

Craig Murray is a very bitter man.SA, I can't agree with that, but yes he does have his own agenda, generally though he almost scrupulously sticks to what he believes is the truth, and spins it to his liking. It won't come as a surprise that I used to drink with him a long time in Tashkent bars on "Broadway", come to that I met Luke Harding once in Pyramidia (Moscow) before they kicked his sorry ass out of the country. It's a small world.

Fitter2
27th Sep 2018, 11:30
Oh dear Flash8

Bellingcat is little more than a shill for Western governments, and likely funded by them, as well as being sourced information from them, true, or otherwise. This is not my conclusion from the Skripal thing but the history of Bellingcat going back (from day one) showing a significant Russian bias, sometimes completely unadulterated spite that has no bearing on any issue discussed.

Bellingcat supply links to the source information for their assertions.

Russian trolls make unsupported statements that are often direct and obvious lies. Spot the difference? (Use your post above as a working example, if you like).

atakacs
27th Sep 2018, 11:54
Craig Murray is a very bitter man.
Maybe... But with impeccable, proven integrity and morality. Which, for the beet or the worst, is getting harder and harder to find in the UK political circles.
He has his agenda, is sometines excessive but on average raises very pertinent questions.

DaveReidUK
27th Sep 2018, 12:22
Maybe... But with impeccable, proven integrity and morality. Which, for the best or the worst, is getting harder and harder to find in the UK political circles.

I don't doubt that he is all of those.

It's just a pity that he often seems to have left his critical faculties at the door.

KelvinD
27th Sep 2018, 15:35
ShotOne: Be sceptical but please make clear what exactly you’re disputing . Yet, if you would like to read my post again, you will see I wasn't disputing anything, merely stating my opinion and my scepticism of Bellingcat. Unless, of course, my computer is failing to show me words I may have written and are only visible to others!
As for the CIA & MI6, they both have their failings (and successes) but where they differ from Bellingcat is the umpteen decades of experience and expertise. Compare them to Johnny-come-lately who was looking for something to do while unemployed..well, there is no comparison. So why should I attach any more credence to Bellingcat's out put to that of HM Government (or the others across the pond)?
So, I shall continue to be sceptical of everyone involved in this whole mess. Even Skripal himself.

flash8
27th Sep 2018, 16:59
I doubt Putin is thinking "We're in the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick insect got stuck on a sticky bun" (no Russian equivalent as far as I know) and Russians shed no tears for a traitor (lets be frank for that is what he is), as I have previously alluded to most people I know state he deserved all he got and a pity the job wasn't finished off, even the ice lady agrees, and she is generally quite peaceful.

A little tangent, knowing a few Russians in the UK, frankly they are treated with less than respect by the indigenous lot, conversely Brits in the RF however are treated generally with extended courtesy (myself case in point). This whipping up of anti-Russian hysteria by the media and joke of a government deserves nothing but contempt.

No I am not a UK resident and unlikely ever to be again, for the country I left twenty odd years ago ceases to exist, it's now overloaded and sinking fast, if any of you have access to a lifeboat I'd not hesitate to recommend you take that option.

atakacs
27th Sep 2018, 19:49
I suggest you read the details of Bellingcat's investigation, published on their website, and let us know what faults you find in it.

I'm sure we can wait.
well short story: all the people I know in facial recogniction technologies are very skeptical about the Belingcat conclusions. And for once this is a domain where I do have some standing. Not having access to high quality orignals I will refrain from further comment but for the certainty that their "evidence" a flimsy at best and most likely outright bogus.

flash8
27th Sep 2018, 20:03
all the people I know in facial recogniction technologies are very skeptical about the Belingcat conclusions.Like many a story, superficially it looks very credible, impressive even, and that is where it ends as far as judgement is concerned in the liberal media and the public at large. However, dig a little under the surface and it looks entirely less than substantive, based upon non-credible documents, supposition and a dash of imagination. I like the nod in the press from the security services stating they "aren't disputing anything".. of course they aren't bloody disputing anything, they likely supplied the stuff... :} :} :}

All one can ask is that before they print anything can the media at least do some basic checking? Or did that (as I suspect) disappear many years ago with the old school reporters... not the "digital media graduates" that the press consists of nowadays (even here).....

TEEEJ
27th Sep 2018, 20:31
well short story: all the people I know in facial recogniction technologies are very skeptical about the Belingcat conclusions. And for once this is a domain where I do have some standing. Not having access to high quality orignals I will refrain from further comment but for the certainty that their "evidence" a flimsy at best and most likely outright bogus.

"Bogus" Really? Villagers in Chipega's hometown have identified "Boshirov"

There is also the image of Chipega's Mother and Father that has surfaced after journalists visited the Chipega's hometown. Quite clear that "Boshirov" takes after his Mother.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/648x549/chipega_81a8abd1f03c2abd8a1f1298b607a7871857c5c5.jpg
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6215469/Villagers-Skripal-suspect-grew-novichok-poisoner.html

G-CPTN
27th Sep 2018, 20:38
If the suspect is not the GRU guy identified, then it's a remarkable coincidence that there is a strong resemblance - or do all agents have doppelgangers (like the heads of state in rogue states do)?

ORAC
28th Sep 2018, 06:40
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-dobrokhotov-journalist-behind-salisbury-poisoning-expos-expects-moscow-arrest-l87c7dnbm

Roman Dobrokhotov, journalist behind Salisbury poisoning exposé, expects Moscow arrest

The Russian journalist behind the Salisbury poisoning exposé flies back to Moscow today expecting to be detained by the authorities.

Roman Dobrokhotov, editor of The Insider, the Russian investigative website which unmasked Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga, said that he could get political asylum but he had a life in Moscow to which he wanted to return.

The Insider’s revelations about the true identity of “Ruslan Boshirov” has drawn international attention to the site and its partner, Bellingcat. Both websites have previously used open-source information to break stories about President Putin’s regime and the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner MH17 over east Ukraine in 2014.

Mr Dobrokhotov, 35, said he thought it unlikely that he would be harmed but he expected to be detained. He said that he could be accused of being a foreign spy for revealing information about Sergei Skripal’s would-be assassins that had embarrassed the Kremlin. The authorities could cause legal problems or close his bank account. Mr Dobrokhotov, a civil activist as well as a journalist, told The Times: “I have a lot of connections and friends in Moscow. It is not a very easy judgment to make to leave the country.”

Moritz Rakuszitzky, the lead investigator for Bellingcat, who uses a pseudonym, said: “I’m very worried. He’s a very brave journalist.”........

Sallyann1234
28th Sep 2018, 07:55
What will they charge him with? It can't be with revealing state infomation because that would be admitting it was correct.
I expect there are a few alternatives...

Shandy52
28th Sep 2018, 08:50
Don't rule out the possibility of a "psychiatric" diagnosis...

Sallyann1234
28th Sep 2018, 09:08
As in "You must be crazy to annoy Putin" ?

flash8
28th Sep 2018, 15:50
Roman Dobrokhotov has a long history of anti-Putin journalism, a lot of it supported by the Ukrainian media. I am not stating what he is saying is incorrect, however a little look at his history and you'll see nothing complimentary on the Russian state, so this cannot come as a surprise.

As for his detainment, perhaps we should wait and see what happens to him, my honest thoughts are absolutely nothing, really, and if I am wrong you can certainly quote me here and I'll hold up my hand, rarely are journalists detained nowadays (possibly from government fear of bad press admittedly), and usually only if they knowingly spread blatant disinformation. Yes, journalists have met sticky ends on occasion, I suspect they have crossed shady figures in their investigations more than the government though, its not a good thing, its appalling, and more should be done to catch those responsible, but its a damned site better than the 90's with almost daily assassinations on the streets of Russian cities. A lot has been cleaned up.

Is this guy a Russian colonel? If he were it would almost come out of some spy fiction novel, I don't know if he was or not, but unless the pair were extremely impressive actors of the Monty Python variety (and I have seen the original interview by Margarita Simonyan) it seems a little far fetched, they came across as utter buffoons even to the Russian public (who are already making folklore jokes about the pair).

I have met Russian Officers on various collaborative US projects (and worked with a few ex-Colonels at a US Multinational here in Moscow) and they are far, far from stupid.

ORAC
28th Sep 2018, 17:43
rarely are journalists detained nowadays

The Russian foreign secretary joked, after the Skripal poisonings, that the UK was a dangerous place for Russian defectors. It might equally be stated that Russia is a dangerous place for Russian journalists.

See the following link. I include an extract just for 2017 and 2018 to date......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

143] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-143)
2017


March 17 – Yevgeny Khamaganov died of unexplained causes in Ulan-Ude (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulan-Ude), Buryatia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buryatia). Khamaganov was known for writing articles that criticized the federal government and was allegedly beaten by unknown assailants on March 10.[144] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-144)
April 19 – Journalist and former prisoner of conscience Nikolay Andrushchenko (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Andrushchenko) died in Saint Petersburg from wounds that he received from a severe beating by unknown assailants on March 9. Andrushchenko was the co-founder of the newspaper Novy Petersburg and was previously jailed in 2009 by a city court for "libel and extremism".[145] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-145)
May 24 – Dmitry Popkov was found dead from gunshot wounds at a bathhouse close to his home in Minusinsk (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minusinsk), Krasnoyarsk Krai (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnoyarsk_Krai). Popkov was the chief editor of the newspaper Ton-M and was known for investigating police corruption.[146] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-146)
September 8 - The body of Andrey Ruskov was found in the Bira River (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bira_River) in Birobidzhan (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birobidzhan), Jewish Autonomous Oblast (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast). Ruskov worked for the Bestvideo Broadcasting Studio.[147] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-147)
2018


April 15 – Maksim Borodin died of injuries from falling out of a window at his apartment in Yekaterinburg (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterinburg), Sverdlovsk Oblast (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverdlovsk_Oblast), on April 12. Authorities classified the death as suicide while colleagues reject the notion. Borodin regularly wrote on crime, corruption, and the recent involvement of Russian mercenaries in Syria (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group).[148] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-148)
July 23 – Denis Suvorov was found dead after being stabbed by an unknown assailant in Nizhny Novgorod (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizhny_Novgorod). Suvorov worked for the Vesti-Privolzhye television station and was an editor for the Vesti.Nizhny Novgorod internet portal.[149] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-149)
[150] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-150)
July 31 – Sergei Grachyov went missing in Nizhny Novgorod on July 21 after taking a reporting trip there from Moscow. His body was found 11 days later. Grachuov worked for the Argumenty i Fakty newspaper.[151] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-151)
[152] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-152)
September 10 – Yegor Orlov disappeared on September 7 after leaving for work in Naberezhnye Chelny (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naberezhnye_Chelny), Tatarstan (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan). His body was later found in a river in the Yelabuzhsky District (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yelabuzhsky_District). Orlov was a correspondent and presenter at Chelny REN-TV.[153] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#cite_note-153)

ORAC
30th Sep 2018, 07:04
I can5 help think that all this intelligence is being provided by those pissed of by the GRU elsewhere in the Russian security services......

The Times: “......Bellingcat should be ready this week to name the second man, who called himself Alexander Petrov and who probably also works for the GRU. The site plans to reveal “another big secret” about the affair and will look into reports that British security services have identified a third Russian intelligence officer who had travelled to Salisbury before the pair to carry out a reconnaissance mission.”......

VP959
30th Sep 2018, 07:51
I can5 help think that all this intelligence is being provided by those pissed of by the GRU elsewhere in the Russian security services......

The Times: “......Bellingcat should be ready this week to name the second man, who called himself Alexander Petrov and who probably also works for the GRU. The site plans to reveal “another big secret” about the affair and will look into reports that British security services have identified a third Russian intelligence officer who had travelled to Salisbury before the pair to carry out a reconnaissance mission.”......


I'm of much the same view. I can't help but think that what we're seeing is Russian internal politics being played to an international audience. Putin has been fighting hard ever since he came to power to try and rein in the crooks and mavericks that made the RF a bit like the Wild West years ago. Sometimes those crooks and mavericks have been useful, though, whenever something needed to be done with plausible deniability by the government. The portrayal of these two characters as goons has been orchestrated, I'm absolutely certain. Our view of them, and the view of those in the RF about them, has been heavily influenced by that charade of a TV interview.

Leaving that aside, and looking solely at the evidence that's been made public, it's pretty clear that there was a degree of careful planning and preparation for this attack. The substance used required very careful handling, by individuals with a high degree of skill. It had to be obtained from somewhere that was supposedly under tight government control, at a secure location (its purity alone very strongly suggests this was not in any way sourced from a backstreet lab). Handling and transferring agents of this nature without getting accidentally contaminated is not at all easy, so those that carried out this attack were far from being idiots. There was also a degree of callous indifference to human life, in the way the agent was applied to a door handle that anyone could touch (as Sgt Nick Bailey did) and in the discarding of the agent in its container where anyone could pick it up and become contaminated, that suggests that those who did it were more than mere civilians, but people who had been engaged first hand in violent acts, and, perhaps, war.

I don't believe for one minute that the perpetrators were amateurs, but do believe that we're being fed a line that they were "just civilians" and fairly stupid ones at that, because that is the impression we're supposed to get.

chuks
30th Sep 2018, 08:43
Check out the news on the BBC this morning, Sunday 30 September. A reporter traveled to the Russian Far East, to the town Chepig comes from, when some locals identified him from photographs they were shown.

As to how clumsy trained operatives can be, just look at what happened at the Watergate in Washington, D.C.

Those were trained CIA operatives who were caught in the act by an alert security guard who called the D.C. Police "bum squad," undercover cops disguised as street people. The clumsiest thing the operatives did? They had taped a lock open, when the guard removed the tape as he made his rounds. When an operative found that the tape had been removed he re-taped it. That alerted the guard making his next round to the fact that intruders were in the Watergate, so that he called the cops. Other operatives keeping watch from across the street then failed to identify the "bum squad" as police, so that they did not warn the men in the Watergate. The rest is history.

Stan Woolley
30th Sep 2018, 11:04
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/spy-games/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

racedo
30th Sep 2018, 13:14
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/spy-games/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

"Anyway, after that lengthy advertorial let me get back to the DIS. DIS remain rather more attached to the truth than MI6, so when Defence Minister Gavin Williamson tweeted out a thrilled endorsement of Bellingcat’s work on Colonel Chepiga, DIS urgently advised that he delete it. Which he did."

Military Censors just like Israel has when they told Jpost to remove the piece that Israel had been funding Al Qaeda / IS to the tune of $75 a head plus all the equipment they needed.

KelvinD
30th Sep 2018, 13:40
Military Censors just like Israel Not quite the same is it? They 'urgently advised' the idiot to delete it. Given that he is their boss and yet he took their advice says something, Israeli censors are just that; censors.
Returning briefly to the Russian players, I have to admit I am not one for spotting how that 'delightful baby looks just like his mother' and I am afraid I can not see the similarity between the 2 characters in this piece. But there we are, that is just my failing to spot the similarities perhaps.
Incidentally, the Bellingcat piece re passports was obtained for a Russian magazine named Insight (if memory serves me well). The author of said piece has now left the UK to return to Russia and, despite the dangling of news bait in the press, has not been arrested, detained or even seriously shouted at.

VP959
30th Sep 2018, 13:54
DIS hasn't existed for several years now, and DI, as they are currently titled, are solely concerned with military intelligence (as in wholly funded by the MoD). SIS is funded by the government centrally, and reports to the Foreign Secretary, SS is focussed on domestic security and counter terrorism, is funded directly by government and reports to the JIC, and GCHQ is primarily focussed on SIGINT and again is funded directly by government and reports to the Foreign Secretary, like SIS (the media still like to refer to SIS as "MI6" and SS as "MI5", for reasons associated with the history of these agencies, back when they were indeed associated with Military Intelligence, which is not their primary task today).

As a consequence of the way they are an integral part of the MoD, DI focus on the defence-related aspects of intelligence analysis, with the primary purpose of being able to inform defence policy, military operations and procurement decision making. I'm not at all convinced that DI would well have suggested that a Defence Minister not act as unwisely as Gavin Williamson did. I very strongly suspect that the advice came from elsewhere, most probably the FCO. I would suspect that DI's role in the Skripal affair is related almost wholly to the defence-related aspects of the use of a prohibited chemical weapon on UK soil, plus, perhaps, some input on the current and recent activities within the GRU.

DI does tend to stick to hard facts, because its role is to analyse military intelligence in order to ensure that our military capability is as best matched to the military threats we face as it can be, and because it, unlike the other intelligence agencies, it is reliant on the MoD for funding from within that departments budget. DI does not normally have a major role in either criminal intelligence or non-military terrorist activity, because of where it sits within MoD.

Andy_S
30th Sep 2018, 14:07
The author of said piece has now left the UK to return to Russia and, despite the dangling of news bait in the press, has not been arrested, detained or even seriously shouted at.

Probably because in the current climate that would be a bit brazen and may even be seen as a tacit acknowledgement of Russian state involvement.

Whether he has an unfortunate accident in a couple of years time when the dust has settled on the whole affair remains to be seen.

Pontius Navigator
30th Sep 2018, 15:22
KelvinD, we were offered 3 pictures supposed the same man at differ e ages. We look at these and look for similarities between them. However computers can do that comparison more exactly, even Google Picassa has a program that compares images of people. In Ancestry I have lots of head and shoulders pictures. When I identify a person Picassa then suggests that name for subsequent images. Sometimes it will suggest the name when the images is that of a,relative. In one group photo it identified 3 probably sisters but offered no suggestion for the 4th woman.

That is a simple free program; what can professional programs achieve?

KelvinD
30th Sep 2018, 18:19
P.N: That is a simple free program; what can professional programs achieve? Judging by trials with the Met and others earlier this year; Nothing! With a 90% failure rate, it doesn't seem to have a lot going for it at the moment.
However, my comment was merely a comment on my personal inability to recognise facial similarities.

TEEEJ
30th Sep 2018, 19:38
Not quite the same is it? They 'urgently advised' the idiot to delete it. Given that he is their boss and yet he took their advice says something, Israeli censors are just that; censors.
Returning briefly to the Russian players, I have to admit I am not one for spotting how that 'delightful baby looks just like his mother' and I am afraid I can not see the similarity between the 2 characters in this piece. But there we are, that is just my failing to spot the similarities perhaps.


As you say some people just can't spot such similarities. Possible indicators of a turf war between the security services is the fact that pro-Kremlin media are quoting Ministry of Interior identification experts as matching the images of Chepiga/Boshirov.

Open the link and right click for English translation.

https://www.kp.ru/daily/26888.7/3932197/

So, here's what we learned from the photos of our experts:

- It is possible to say with high probability that the same person is depicted. We conducted the examination within four hours using the necessary software. They checked everything down to the pupils, the distance between the brow, the shape of the ear shells. The fact that the result does not reach 100% is due to the poor quality of the photographs.

Chuks mentioned the BBC report earlier

See BBC link for video from the village of Beryozovka.

Russian woman 'identifies' Salisbury suspect
A woman has told the BBC she recognises one of the key suspects in the Salisbury attack as a military officer.

A BBC team travelled to the village of Beryozovka, some 5,000 miles east of Moscow, where Anatoliy Chepiga grew up.

The woman identified him immediately from photographs as a decorated "Hero of Russia".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-45697502/russian-woman-identifies-salisbury-suspect

flash8
30th Sep 2018, 20:18
The author of said piece has now left the UK to return to Russia and, despite the dangling of news bait in the press, has not been arrested, detained or even seriously shouted at.Indeed, as I stated in my last comment, nothing would happen to him, but it didn't stop the massive hysteria in the Western media. Often they'll print the wildest of speculation with absolutely no foundation whatsoever and then ignore it when proved wrong. He must have looked a bit of a fool on arrival when nobody gave him a second glance.

A woman has told the BBC she recognises one of the key suspects in the Salisbury attack as a military officer.
A BBC team travelled to the village of Beryozovka, some 5,000 miles east of Moscow, where Anatoliy Chepiga grew up.
The woman identified him immediately from photographs as a decorated "Hero of Russia".Reminds me of when The Sunday Times found documents in the ruins of Baghdad implicating George Galloway in the Oil for Cash scandal... you know you walk through bombed out Baghdad and suddenly in the ruins you find gold dust.... and to think that some people actually bloody well believed that load of tosh.... this is not in the same league, but certainly in the same vain. I can travel to the middle of Russia and get some batty old granny to say whatever I like... this is turning into a farce!

Sallyann1234
30th Sep 2018, 22:06
Indeed, as I stated in my last comment, nothing would happen to him, but it didn't stop the massive hysteria in the Western media. Often they'll print the wildest of speculation with absolutely no foundation whatsoever and then ignore it when proved wrong. He must have looked a bit of a fool on arrival when nobody gave him a second glance.

More likely, he was relieved that his ploy of heavily advertising his return had worked. The authorities were not going to arrest him with the world's press following his every move.

How long his safety will continue into the future is of course a different matter.

fitliker
1st Oct 2018, 01:57
DIS,Di,MI5,GRU,NKVD,FSB,CIA,DIA,. .. ..
Reminds me of the huge explosion at the Alphagetti spaghetti plant . A spokesperson said it might spell disaster .

We now return you to regularly broadband blogcasting Stay tuned, someone may actually say something that is of particular pertenance to this poisoning . Perhaps even by mistake :)

KelvinD
1st Oct 2018, 06:46
I listened to that report from Granny Buggins, somewhere in Russia, identifying Chepiga, before it hit the website. I was immediately struck by the fact I was getting this on Radio, not TV. How do I know to whom the photograph belongs? I still trust neither side in this fiasco.

atakacs
1st Oct 2018, 09:36
The substance used required very careful handling, by individuals with a high degree of skill. It had to be obtained from somewhere that was supposedly under tight government control, at a secure location (its purity alone very strongly suggests this was not in any way sourced from a backstreet lab).

It was my understanding (out of your explanations / postings) that the substance was tracked to a specific lab and even production batch (interestingly enough almost 30 years old!). Have I missed something ?

Of course said batch might have changed hands multiple times since then but I was under the impression that the source was clearly known.

currawong
1st Oct 2018, 10:08
I would politely disagree that the substance requires special handling by individuals with a high degree of skill.

No more so than say battery acid, within reason.

VP959
1st Oct 2018, 10:45
It was my understanding (out of your explanations / postings) that the substance was tracked to a specific lab and even production batch (interestingly enough almost 30 years old!). Have I missed something ?

Of course said batch might have changed hands multiple times since then but I was under the impression that the source was clearly known.

The problem we have, as observers who can only see and listen to information that is in the public domain, is that we are not privy to any hard evidence. That means that, even though everything points to this being from a batch of A-234 produced at Shikhany, we don't have the evidence to be able to be definitive, which is why I chose my words carefully.

My personal opinion, from having read and listened as much as I have been able to, is that there is very little doubt in my own mind that the agent used in Salisbury almost certainly originally came from Shikhany. It may well have been removed from there years ago, as there is evidence from the independent inspections carried out in 1993 that all the former Soviet chemical weapons facilities were insecure, or it may have remained there until recently. This particular agent is a bit of a curiosity, in that it was never weaponised and has characteristics that don't make it particularly useful as a weapon. I doubt that much time was spent looking at it as a possible chemical weapon for a host of reasons, not least of which is that its close relative, A-232, or Novichok-5, was a "better" choice for a chemical weapon, and was produced in volume and tested as one. Over 100 chemical agents were produced under the novichok programme, and the majority, like A-234, weren't developed into weapons and tested, but remained, in effect, lab curiosities. Much the same could be said of VX, in that we deemed it too damned difficult to use as a weapon, long before we chose to cease the development of chemical weapons, although we tried to disguise that difficulty by putting out propaganda that it was "too lethal" and so inhumane, which frankly seems to me to be just BS.

The questions I have around the source of the A-234 are prompted by the facts that it's an oddball as a choice of assassination weapon, the samples tested by the OPCW approved labs all reported that it was very pure and that there is little doubt that the exact same agent was developed in the Soviet Union, with there being no reliable evidence that very pure A-234 has been ever been produced anywhere else (although A-232 has). I'm pretty certain, from what has been released by the OPCW, that their classified report confirmed that the samples tested matched the reference signature for A-234, and that in turn came from samples probably acquired by the West following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It's the purification process that is key, as it's not dissimilar to that used to purify VX, and is significantly more hazardous than preparing the crude compound initially. That suggests that the agent used in Salisbury was almost certainly from the only source of very pure A-234 that we know of. If someone just wanted to make a very toxic batch of this stuff to kill someone they almost certainly wouldn't bother to take the risk of purifying it. The crude compound would be just as effective, probably more so, as if it's like crude VX (and I think it is) in terms of its physical properties, then it may well have been "better" when used in its crude state.

The real puzzle is that there are a host of agents, including some binary agents that are pretty crude, but effective and a little easier to handle, that could have been used, which wouldn't have pointed the finger at Russia. There's a wealth of public domain information about, and I'm certain that it would not be difficult to produce a crude toxic compound that would have done the job as well, or probably better. For example, the group that perpetrated the Japanese subway Sarin attack produced large quantities of various agents, including crude VX, but they seemed not to know how to purify, or chose not to because of the risk, some of the agents they produced. In part it seems that their lack of knowledge of the difficult job of turning a chemical agent into an effective weapon (which has always been the hardest part) led to there being far fewer casualties from their attacks than might have been expected, given the quantity of reasonably pure Sarin they deployed. It's also worth noting that the cost of the facilities that the Japanese group built to produce agents was over $30M, so not exactly a back street operation.

It would be dangerous, but not technically that difficult, to produce crude forms of a wide range of chemical weapons for use to poison an individual, as the information is readily available on how to do this, and isn't significantly more challenging than producing some insecticides. I also can't understand why anyone would choose to try and purify a crude agent for use as an assassination weapon, it would be very risky and pretty pointless, unless it so happened that the perpetrators already had ready access to a batch of purified agent they could use. That leads to a possible conclusion, which is that the choice of this particular chemical agent to attempt to kill a traitor was probably not accidental, but was intended to send a specific message to others.

fitliker
1st Oct 2018, 11:45
In my travels I noticed a huge difference between those who received "Spetnaz" training and those who are real Spetnaz . These couriers lacked the cloak of invisability that allows real Spetz to run through mines fields and dodge bullets. They could not even avoid CCTV . Real Ghosts are only seen when they want to be seen :)

Sallyann1234
1st Oct 2018, 12:18
VP,
From what you say, the difficulty and danger of preparing a batch of this compound for a one-off use would seem to rule it out as a weapon. Why attempt to make it when there is already a range of easier compounds to do the same job? The only conclusion is that a sufficient dose was already available from a stock somewhere, without further processing being required.

Perhaps also the fact that it was a long-discounted and almost forgotten variety might have confused a subsequent investigation, and would also give a clue as to the ability of our resources to identify and protect against such compounds.

What is the shelf life of A-234? Would it remain active after decades in storage?

VP959
1st Oct 2018, 14:00
VP,
From what you say, the difficulty and danger of preparing a batch of this compound for a one-off use would seem to rule it out as a weapon. Why attempt to make it when there is already a range of easier compounds to do the same job? The only conclusion is that a sufficient dose was already available from a stock somewhere, without further processing being required.

Perhaps also the fact that it was a long-discounted and almost forgotten variety might have confused a subsequent investigation, and would also give a clue as to the ability of our resources to identify and protect against such compounds.

What is the shelf life of A-234? Would it remain active after decades in storage?

I agree, and am sure that the means by which the Skripals were attacked was chosen because it was readily available to the perpetrators and, perhaps, because it would inflict a pretty horrible death, had they received a lethal dose. Had the perpetrators just wanted to kill him they didn't need to go to the extent they did, it's not as if where he lived was a secret, with his wife's grave nearby. He was out and about often enough that there could have been a car accident, or he could have been killed with a gun, knife or whatever, with it made to look like a robbery gone wrong. The choice of weapon was, I believe, intended to send a message to others.

The shelf life of A-234 is probably several decades if stored properly. It would barely degrade at all if stored in a sealed container, especially if stored at low temperature (for safety as much as anything else - it's a lot safer to store and transport this stuff when it's cold). The stuff is a bit like motor oil in both its physical properties and that it's very slow to evaporate. It's the latter property that makes it difficult to weaponise - something has to be devised to produce a very fine atomised spray of the agent for it to be an effective chemical weapon. The long persistence in the environment is another reason why it wouldn't be a good choice as a weapon; it would remain in the area and highly toxic for a long time, creating, in effect, an area denial weapon. Just cleaning up the tiny amounts left around Salisbury has been a costly and massive operation, which has involved sealing up and burying several vehicles, including emergency service vehicles, as toxic waste, as they couldn't be safely decontaminated.

pilotmike
1st Oct 2018, 17:47
I would politely disagree that the substance requires special handling by individuals with a high degree of skill.

No more so than say battery acid, within reason.

I have accidentally spilled battery acid on my skin on more than one occasion, without any lasting problems.

Despite your assurances about handling Novichok, being somewhat of a wuss in these matters, I rather think I'd take more care to avoid any such skin contact with it. But you go right ahead.

On the evidence available from the effects on the 4 known people to have touched it in low quantities in the UK, it wasn't particularly pleasant for any of them.

Sallyann1234
1st Oct 2018, 18:42
5 known people.

currawong
1st Oct 2018, 21:06
I have accidentally spilled battery acid on my skin on more than one occasion, without any lasting problems.

Despite your assurances about handling Novichok, being somewhat of a wuss in these matters, I rather think I'd take more care to avoid any such skin contact with it. But you go right ahead.

On the evidence available from the effects on the 4 known people to have touched it in low quantities in the UK, it wasn't particularly pleasant for any of them.

Absolutely. Wash it off ASAP.

The victims here did not realise they had been contaminated. Contact was prolonged.

Whoever (cough) deployed the chemical, did not do so in full NBC kit.

It is, by all accounts non volatile, so contact or ingestion are the hazard. Both pretty easy to avoid if aware of the risk.

Have a look at the VX hit in KL. No full NBC kit there either. But a big hurry to decontaminate after the event.

VP959
1st Oct 2018, 21:43
Absolutely. Wash it off ASAP.

The victims here did not realise they had been contaminated. Contact was prolonged.

Whoever (cough) deployed the chemical, did not do so in full NBC kit.

It is, by all accounts non volatile, so contact or ingestion are the hazard. Both pretty easy to avoid if aware of the risk.

Have a look at the VX hit in KL. No full NBC kit there either. But a big hurry to decontaminate after the event.

The issue is really the tiny amount needed to cause serious illness or death. If we take the Russian information at face value on it's toxicity, then it's between 7 and 10 times more toxic than VX. That makes the LD50 from skin contact around 100 to 150ug. Extrapolating the onset of serious illness from that known for VX takes the contact dose down to a few ug. That is minute, perhaps 1/100th of the mass of a tiny raindrop.

The KL VX attack is now believed to have been binary - each girl had one of the VX precursors and crude VX was created when these mixed on the victim's face. Crude VX is not as toxic as purified VX, but the amount that formed on the victim's face was many times the lethal dose, so the lack of purity was neither here nor there.

Interestingly, the driving force behind the novichok programme was to create "undetectable" and binary chemical warfare agents, with precursors that could be handled safely and which wouldn't be considered to be chemical weapons on their own. The UK and US (and probably other nations) also developed binary chemical weapons, primarily to overcome some of the safety and degradation problems some present. SARIN, for example, can degrade quite quickly unless purified to remove the excess acid from the final preparation stage, so it made sense to create SARIN weapons where the final reaction took place as the weapon was deployed, with the two precursors stored separately within the weapon.

TEEEJ
2nd Oct 2018, 17:18
Chepiga is "Boshirov".

A 2017 image has surfaced from the Far Eastern Military Academy showing the recipients of the Hero of the Russian Federation award.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/807x533/chepiga_01225f3af4b553e84846ebfcba0c917b4b0644f6.jpg

https://017qndpynh-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/chepiga.jpg

From

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/10/02/anatoliy-chepiga-hero-russia-writing-wall/

TEEEJ
2nd Oct 2018, 17:37
From this Russian guys social media. I wonder how long that profile will stay up!

https://ok.ru/profile/475421179769

https://ok.ru/profile/475421179769/album/856276858233/856276895865

https://ok.ru/profile/475421179769/photos?st._aid=NavMenu_Friend_Photos

TEEEJ
2nd Oct 2018, 18:34
A young Chipega during operations in Chechnya.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1026x817/chipega_chechnya_422fd12484b629538e7ee5f131bd8f11711239e7.jp g
From this Russian officers social media.

(Update: The profile is now "friends only" and photo gallery reduced to 1.)

https://ok.ru/profile/558195496514

https://ok.ru/profile/558195496514/photos?st._aid=NavMenu_Friend_Photos

https://i.mycdn.me/image?id=534515478082&t=3&plc=WEB&tkn=*ICFVTdMUcmcAFBjoirn5sXIppaY (https://i.mycdn.me/image?id=534515478082&t=3&plc=WEB&tkn=*ICFVTdMUcmcAFBjoirn5s XIppaY)

From research on this forum.

(Update: The following link was working when posted - since removed)

https://2ch.hk/po/res/30073043.html

ORAC
3rd Oct 2018, 06:45
The Times:

”The Russian colonel named as one of the suspects in the Salisbury poisonings was awarded his country’s top military honour by President Putin for spiriting Ukraine’s former leader to safety during its 2014 revolution.

According to a report by the Dossier Center, a London-based investigative group, Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga was given the Hero of Russia award for his role in saving Viktor Yanukovych. A Russian special forces unit escorted the pro-Russian former president in a top secret mission ordered by Mr Putin..... Alexey Dyumin, 46, Mr Putin’s former bodyguard, is also thought to have been honoured for his role in the operation......

DaveReidUK
3rd Oct 2018, 06:54
A young Chipega during operations in Chechnya.

Good to see that he's wearing gloves. You can't be too careful when you're handling dangerous stuff.

TEEEJ
3rd Oct 2018, 22:39
You can tell Craig Murray has completely lost it!

He is also deleting posts on his various media that disagree with him.

Bellingcat’s attempts to gild the Chepiga lily are now becoming ludicrous. The photo they published today is a very obvious fake.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/bellingcats-very-obviously-fake-chepiga-photo/

Even the Far Eastern Military School website has an image of the wall where you can see the position of the Chipega image.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1204x826/chipega_gallery_e256d55751793fe85384fe2542908b3cae063c00.jpg

From

???? ???????? ?????? ? ?????, ???????????? ? ???????????? ??? ?????????? - ??????????????? ?????? ????????????? ????????? ??????? ??. ??????? ?????????? ????? ?.?.????????????? (http://dvoku.mil.ru/Multimedia/photo/list/46564/)

Image link

http://dvoku.mil.ru/upload/site31/document_images/GhQLfcf9fg.jpg

There is also other social media images taken during visits to the academy.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/568x425/chipega_wall_d90a1312ea7d4e1573b41e1cdfa920a568b9d3e4.jpg

Sallyann1234
4th Oct 2018, 08:52
Murray's analysis of the picture is entirely wrong.
The reason that Chepiga's photo is the only one with the reflection is simply that the distant light source is directly behind the photographer, and his portrait is directly in front - they all line up. If the photographer had moved to his left, or stooped down, the reflection would have been on a different picture.
As for the order of the pictures, it is clear from the asymmetric arrangement that newer ones have been added on both sides of the original display. Quite reasonably it was not thought necessary to re-hang all the pictures each time a new one was added.
All this should have been quite obvious to Murray, but he is only looking for a way of discounting it. His bias is obvious.

VP959
4th Oct 2018, 11:12
There seems to be a coordinated release of information to the media regarding Russia and the alleged activities of the GRU at the moment. The BBC has had two stories up in quick succession today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45741520

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45746837

Looks like a coordinated media campaign to me, as I can't believe that the UK releasing the cyber warfare news (some of which is old news anyway) and the Dutch releasing fresh information about the attempted cyber attack against the OPCW in April is coincidental.

Sallyann1234
4th Oct 2018, 11:22
I agree. It seems the West are belatedly trying to catch up with Russia on the information game. But they have a long way to go.
Let's hope they stick to information and not dis-information.

Trossie
4th Oct 2018, 11:37
You can tell Craig Murray has completely lost it!

He is also deleting posts on his various media that disagree with him.



https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/bellingcats-very-obviously-fake-chepiga-photo/



Ahhh... Mr "www.myname.org.uk" big ego!

Trossie
4th Oct 2018, 11:47
I agree. It seems the West are belatedly trying to catch up with Russia on the information game. But they have a long way to go.
Let's hope they stick to information and not dis-information.
I don't see this as 'catching up' but rather as 'showing up'. I can just imagine the meetings that are being held in Moscow with the "your department did what?" and "how did those fools leave so much of a trail?" and "can't your idiots do this properly" and "what else have they managed to find out about how we do things?" questions and comments being barked out at quivering department heads nervously thinking about impending enforced unfavourable transfers/demotions or worse..

I liked the Dutch military man's comment at one of the press questions: "Don't you know or can't you say?". Immediate answer, with a slight smile, "I can't say"! Good to sow concerns on the other side!

VP959
4th Oct 2018, 12:07
The common theme here seems to be that those who have been intercepted in some way, either from CCTV and passport information, or by having been caught doing something suspicious, don't seem to have been very competent. We've seen the behaviour of the two people who are suspected of the Skripal attack being interviewed, and they seemed to be either pretty incompetent, or very good actors. We've now heard more from the Dutch about the attempted hacking into the OPCW wifi network, and it seems that those people weren't too smart, either. If these are professional intelligence agents then surely they don't leave stuff on a laptop that ties them to other suspicious activities, or carry a taxi receipt showing they travelled from the GRU building to the airport?

They seem incredibly amateurish to me, and I can't help but think that the GRU may not be as good as its job as we might have been led to believe. Makes me wonder if getting the two Salisbury suspects on TV was a deliberate move by the government of the RF to show up the GRU as incompetent, for internal political reasons. For all we know there could be a turf war going on within the Russian government intelligence services. It wouldn't surprise me, as I believe we had much the same between the SIS and SS years ago, when our intelligence focus shifted from the Cold War environment to international terrorism.

larssnowpharter
4th Oct 2018, 16:50
I prefer to think of them as being incompetent; they are after all 'military intelligence' and we don't want to elaborate on that.

According to Bellingcat, some 305 GRU staff have their cars registered at the GRU HQ address. Good one boys😎

Trossie
4th Oct 2018, 17:20
Can someone who has the proper access to the on-line version copy today's "Matt" cartoon onto here? It is EXCELLENT!!!

TEEEJ
4th Oct 2018, 17:21
The Bellingcat link.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2018/10/04/305-car-registrations-may-point-massive-gru-security-breach/

VP959
4th Oct 2018, 17:37
If people hadn't been killed or made seriously ill this level of apparent incompetence would be laughable. How on earth can any intelligence service make so many fundamental blunders?

DaveReidUK
4th Oct 2018, 17:46
Will we ever see, instead of the usual accusations of "fantasy" by the Russians, a credible denial (of anything) that actually starts "This is rubbish, and we can demonstrate that because ..." ?

treadigraph
4th Oct 2018, 17:57
Can someone who has the proper access to the on-line version copy today's "Matt" cartoon onto here? It is EXCELLENT!!!

Spot on!

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x608/0510_matt_portal_web_p1_png_7b72cc1541ff877153b91afc9d83c145 58e33e8b.jpg

Sallyann1234
4th Oct 2018, 20:52
Where are the Moscow trolls? You'll have answers for all this I suppose.

skydiver69
4th Oct 2018, 21:20
It will be interesting to see what the fall out has been or will be in Moscow. I'd assume that given the level of incompetence shown in Salisbury and Holland that heads would roll. The trouble for the Russians with that is that the reaction would be obvious and would provide further confirmation of what the GRU had been doing. Alternatively if Putin leaves the managers in place he will undermine his authority and will be a reward for incompetence.

Recent events remind me of a Le Carre plot although I can't remember the name of the book. It involved one branch of the British secret service setting another branch up in an operation which was bound to fail so could the incompetence be deliberate or engineered in order to undermine the GRU?

Jack D
4th Oct 2018, 21:49
Silence from the apologists... many posts ago it was stated that the names, affiliation and evidence would be made public in due course, this has happened as predicted. ... no amount of wriggling or bluster can get
them off the hook.
So we move on to cyber crime, foiled in some cases, exposed in others and on occasion partly “successful”

Everybody now knows about it so either the perpetrators are not as capable as they think, grossly overate their own abilities, underestimate the opposition or they are simply trying to demonstrate that they can get away with these activities most of the time,and interfere wherever they please, as an extension of Russian influence .. I don’t buy into the deliberate embarrassment of one intelligence unit by another, but in the Byzantine world of Russian power struggles who really knows ? it,s possible that something that was meant for internal political advantage, got out of hand on a world stage .

fitliker
4th Oct 2018, 23:55
Military intelligence has always been an oxymoron .
Why would anyone expect the Russians intell to be any smarter than any other Intel group ?
Although they were smart enough to cut their loses and leave Afghanistan . The longest war in modern history , if you discount domestic squabbles like the war on drugs or the nasty incessant interference in the internal affairs of sovereign countries by faceless civil servants .

layman
5th Oct 2018, 04:46
I expect the trolls to return.

They are just waiting until they receive their briefing(s) from the Kremlin

Andy_S
5th Oct 2018, 07:21
Where are the Moscow trolls? You'll have answers for all this I suppose.

I assume their handlers have told them that this one is now a lost cause.

I'd assume that given the level of incompetence shown in Salisbury and Holland that heads would roll.

Funny isn't it. One of the arguments regularly put forward by the apologists is that the Russians couldn't possibly be culpable for the failed Skripal poisoning because they operate with such steely eyed efficiency that they are 100% infallible. Personally, every time I see photos of these GRU agents I'm starting to hear the Laurel and Hardy music in my head.

VP959
5th Oct 2018, 07:45
Funny isn't it. One of the arguments regularly put forward by the apologists is that the Russians couldn't possibly be culpable for the failed Skripal poisoning because they operate with such steely eyed efficiency that they are 100% infallible. Personally, every time I see photos of these GRU agents I'm starting to hear the Laurel and Hardy music in my head.

I think that some of us have thought (perhaps wrongly) that all the Russian intelligence services would operate with a high level of professionalism, perhaps because many still think that Russia = Soviet Union. The former Soviet Union was very capable, but it seems from the evidence that's been made public that at least the GRU are very different, and don't seem to have anywhere near the level of basic competence in the field that their Soviet predecessors had.

It's interesting that all the information released so far only points towards the GRU, with none seeming to relate to the FSB. If the Russian Federation as a whole has failings in its intelligence services, then I'd have expected at least some evidence of FSB involvement to have shown up. This makes me suspect that the FSB may well be as effective and efficient as its predecessor, the KGB.

KelvinD
5th Oct 2018, 08:06
I think there is another Skripal still working in GRU. It seems, from what the Dutch Intelligence chief was reporting, that Dutch Intelligence were on to these people from the moment they arrived.
What we are currently seeing is the political version of Monty Python. I am waiting to see how they deal with a man armed with a banana! Or a pointy stick.
Meanwhile, let us not forget who it was that was caught talking to a rock in a Moscow park some years ago. .

Kerosene Kraut
5th Oct 2018, 08:22
Senior russian Skripal-investigator dies in helo crash. A leaker to the west?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6240165/Top-Russian-law-official-dies-mysterious-helicopter-crash-hours-four-GRU-spies-outed.html

Sallyann1234
5th Oct 2018, 09:03
Perhaps the absence of the usual apologists here is due to the lack of guidance from HQ.
Even RT has given up refuting the various individual cases.
"So, basically, we see some kind of campaign, a well-coordinated campaign to discredit Russia.”

TEEEJ
5th Oct 2018, 15:24
Where are the Moscow trolls? You'll have answers for all this I suppose.

Craig Murray has all the answers! It is just laughable the extent that he goes to! Murray blames the Ukrainians for hacking those Russian websites that show Chipega's Hero of Russian Federation image! :)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/838x157/murray_e67777e75a03bb90d3cce9f4e612a07ecb7ae351.jpg

I wonder if super-sleuth Murray has informed the Russian MoD that their website has been hacked and now has photo shopped images of one of their establishments? :)

Link to Russian MoD website

http://dvoku.mil.ru/Multimedia/photo/list/46564/

You couldn't make it up, but Murray does!

From

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/bellingcats-very-obviously-fake-chepiga-photo/comment-page-1/#comments

The AvgasDinosaur
5th Oct 2018, 17:09
Learned contributions,
Is it just me or has Donald Trump been uncharacteristically quiet on recent developments in The Netherlands?
Be lucky,
David

VP959
5th Oct 2018, 17:44
I think the key thing is that the Dutch government released the information about the four Russians they caught near the OPCW back in April, so it's really old news, regurgitated as part of a concerted international effort to highlight the alleged activities of the GRU. IIRC, the USA took account of the Dutch revelations back around the time the information was first released, so maybe they feel there's nothing much more to do at this point. The ball seems to be firmly back in Russia's court now, and they seem to be ignoring what looks to be a sequence of allegations that, when taken overall, seem to paint a picture of a coordinated attempt to undermine legitimate investigations.

funfly
5th Oct 2018, 21:54
On the assumption that not all the Russian intelligence people are gumps, can we imaging the excursuses that they have carried out that have not gone tits up?

Of course we or the US have never done anything like that.

ORAC
6th Oct 2018, 06:24
The Times:

The GRU military intelligence agency was accused yesterday of making the largest intelligence blunder in Russian history after the Dutch hacking revelations (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/russian-spies-caught-in-the-act-cnbvlng8k)appeared to result in the outing of more than 300 spies.

Aleksei Morenets, one of the four Russian operatives accused of attempting to hack into the chemical weapons watchdog in the Netherlands, was identified in a leaked Russian car ownership database. Morenets’ Lada was registered in 2011 to a Moscow address that is believed to house a GRU (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/putin-must-take-the-blame-for-novichok-attack-says-ben-wallace-q7bqws6z3)barracks and specifically unit 26165, its notorious cyberespionage operation accused of attempting to hack into the Office for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) and of carrying out intrusions on agencies around the globe.

The website Bellingcat searched for other vehicles registered to the same address and produced a list of 305 individuals aged from 27 to 53. The leaked list includes the names, dates of birth and mobile phone numbers of the apparent spies.

Alexander Gabuev, a senior fellow and chair Russia at the Asia-Pacific programme in the Carnegie Moscow Centre, tweeted that it was the largest intelligence blunder in modern Russian history.

He wrote that the Russian Traffic Authority was notoriously corrupt and so it was no surprise that its database had been available for purchase on the black market since the 1990s. However, he said that GRU spies would register their private cars using the address because it gave them “bonuses”. “You are put on a special list so the traffic police can’t stop you, the fines for drunk driving etc never apply to you, and you don’t need to pay car tax,” he added.......

Pontius Navigator
6th Oct 2018, 07:42
largest intelligence blunder in Russian history after the Dutch hacking revelations (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/russian-spies-caught-in-the-act-cnbvlng8k)appeared to result in the outing of more than 300 spies.
Aleksei Morenets, . . .identified in a leaked Russian car ownership database. . . address that is believed to house a GRU (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/putin-must-take-the-blame-for-novichok-attack-says-ben-wallace-q7bqws6z3)barracks and specifically unit 26165, . . . website Bellingcat searched for other vehicles registered to the same address and produced a list of 305 individuals aged from 27 to 53.


Are they saying that until Morenets was identified they didn't know about the barracks or that identifying Morenets confirmed it was a GRU barracks? But then they identify the unit number, how?

As for GRU not paying taxes, I support that accounts for him splashing out on a 7 year old Lada.

Kerosene Kraut
6th Oct 2018, 08:19
I think we see a new form of western retaliation here. Publishing detailed data of eastern agents including pictures, adresses and passport data. The publicity will do the main damage. A new post RT news counter info war strategy possibly? Looks even like "they" cooperate internationally on it even including Switzerland. Quite devastating effects so far I'd say.

KelvinD
6th Oct 2018, 15:35
Of course we or the US have never done anything like that. As I mentioned in an earlier post; who was caught talking to a rock in a Moscow park some years ago?
And the UK government declared in (I think) 2013 the intention to set up a department in the MoD to engage specifically in cyber warfare so it seems we may have beaten the Russians to it.

funfly
6th Oct 2018, 15:42
I have often castigated social media on here and elsewhere for its effect on the gullible and 'friend' seeking population.
Not until now have I realised the newly released information on the magnitude that the users are being influenced by false postings particularly from the Soviet Union and possible from more 'friendly' agencies.
It's scary.

KelvinD
6th Oct 2018, 18:07
Here's a quote to get the tongues wagging:
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov on Friday refuted reports that a state award was handed out by the Russian president to Col. Anatoly Chepiga
https://www.rt.com/newsline/439787-chepiga-award-putin-peskov/
I was wondering if there is any credibility to the stories that the Skripals were feeding ducks in the park some time after the alleged incident? One story says not only were they feeding the ducks but that they gave 3 young boys some of the bread to feed them too and one of the boys is said to have eaten some!

VP959
6th Oct 2018, 18:41
Here's a quote to get the tongues wagging:

https://www.rt.com/newsline/439787-chepiga-award-putin-peskov/
I was wondering if there is any credibility to the stories that the Skripals were feeding ducks in the park some time after the alleged incident? One story says not only were they feeding the ducks but that they gave 3 young boys some of the bread to feed them too and one of the boys is said to have eaten some!

It was March, just after the "Beast from the East" had skirted around Salisbury, but resulted in low temperatures and a bit of snow. The river next to where the Skripals were found is popular in warmer weather for kids feeding the duck and swans, as there's a children's play area close by.

TEEEJ
6th Oct 2018, 19:02
Another image of Chipega has been uncovered.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/511x337/chipega_chipega_chipega_c49d52f28e2557e0f5dc0f64e8bb44d28643 f8cf.jpg

Bellingcat has announced that the identity of the second suspect Petrov will be revealed on Tuesday.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/586x303/petrov_announcement_e243c8ea97f4a57affa90cb24e9c0a96f69f0582 .jpg

KelvinD
6th Oct 2018, 21:10
Well that is an interesting photo. If one looks at the full size version of the driving licence photo, it appears to be "discredited".
Take a look at the official stamp:
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7

TEEEJ
6th Oct 2018, 21:59
Well that is an interesting photo. If one looks at the full size version of the driving licence photo, it appears to be "discredited".
Take a look at the official stamp:
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7

The desperate ramblings of Elena Evdokimova. Everything needs to "go away". As bad as Craig Murray!

It will be the same when the identity of Petrov is revealed. It must "go away".

You can see the mindset preparing itself for when Petrov's identity is revealed. It must "go away" at all costs!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/617x370/elena_1e0d70d8487c036402aa5dc296d8063d9fb54ddf.jpg

Sallyann1234
6th Oct 2018, 22:13
Well that is an interesting photo. If one looks at the full size version of the driving licence photo, it appears to be "discredited".
Take a look at the official stamp:
https://twitter.com/elenaevdokimov7
If you are referring to the way that the official stamp is 'cut off' by the photo, it's pretty obvious why this happened.
The photo and the glue attaching it have thickness. Its surface is raised above the paper, and the ink stamp was therefore bridged across the adjacent paper. You can see at the bottom of the paper that the stamp gradually returns to the paper leaving faint marks.
There is also a gap in the ink along the left side of the photo, but a narrower one because either the stamp was not level or there was less glue than along the bottom.

Shandy52
7th Oct 2018, 11:07
Here's a quote to get the tongues wagging:

https://www.rt.com/newsline/439787-chepiga-award-putin-peskov/
I was wondering if there is any credibility to the stories that the Skripals were feeding ducks in the park some time after the alleged incident? One story says not only were they feeding the ducks but that they gave 3 young boys some of the bread to feed them too and one of the boys is said to have eaten some!

I think you should refer to the dictionary to check the difference between refuting something and merely denying it - the difference is that refutation requires evidence, which Peskov specifically disclaims.

As for the "feeding ducks" story, I can only say "citation needed". Your technique here is typical of the "somebody told me" approach used by Donald Trump to distance himself from the lies involved in what he claims.

DaveReidUK
7th Oct 2018, 12:02
I think you should refer to the dictionary to check the difference between refuting something and merely denying it - the difference is that refutation requires evidence, which Peskov specifically disclaims.

Sadly, in this era of fake news, that distinction seems to have almost disappeared.

The difference between proving that something is false, and merely asserting that it is, seems lost on both journalists and the general public.

KelvinD
7th Oct 2018, 12:14
Shandy52: In my defence, I merely quoted an RT item so will not take lessons on correct or incorrect use of the English language from you! Similarly with the duck feeding story, I asked the question if anybody knew if there was any credibility to it. A civil question that perhaps merited a civil answer.
Dave: The current OED mentions how the use of refute to mean deny has crept in to general use in the latter half of the 20th century. I suppose we have to accept changes in definition from time to time. Look at how virtually nobody uses the word 'anticipate' in its original meaning.

atakacs
8th Oct 2018, 04:52
Craig Murray has all the answers! It is just laughable the extent that he goes to! Murray blames the Ukrainians for hacking those Russian websites that show Chipega's Hero of Russian Federation image! :)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/838x157/murray_e67777e75a03bb90d3cce9f4e612a07ecb7ae351.jpg

I wonder if super-sleuth Murray has informed the Russian MoD that their website has been hacked and now has photo shopped images of one of their establishments? :)

Link to Russian MoD website

???? ???????? ?????? ? ?????, ???????????? ? ???????????? ??? ?????????? - ??????????????? ?????? ????????????? ????????? ??????? ??. ??????? ?????????? ????? ?.?.????????????? (http://dvoku.mil.ru/Multimedia/photo/list/46564/)


I'm sorry a bit late to the party and probably a bit thick - but what am I supposed to see there ?!

VP959
8th Oct 2018, 06:34
It seems Craig Murray is stating rumours as fact, perhaps because he doesn't wish to consider anything that doesn't lie within his preconceived views and ideology.

There's no evidence at all that any site was hacked, or that Ukraine may have been involved if it was, yet Craig Murray has stated in that post on 3rd October 2018 that the photo's showing the man who is allegedly Chepiga (there are several different ones, taken by different people at different times, of the same photo board) are only there because the "Ukrainians have put on a hacked Russian site". He has no evidence at all to support this view, and now a fair bit of evidence from other sources to suggest he's mistaken, yet he's stated it as if it were a proven fact.

For balance, I'd have to add that Craig Murray is no different to any other media outlet, in that all are biased one way or another, although the more reputable media outlets probably wouldn't go so far as to knowingly make false claims that could find themselves facing libel charges.

DaveReidUK
8th Oct 2018, 06:48
I'm sorry a bit late to the party and probably a bit thick - but what am I supposed to see there ?!

Seventh thumbnail (click on it to enlarge). The rightmost photo on the second row that looks very like Chepiga (though much better seen in other published photos, in the same position). Craig Murray tells us that it's not actually there but that the image has been photoshopped and uploaded to Russian Defence Ministry's website by Ukrainian hackers.

The poor man has completely lost the plot, and apparently most of his marbles.

TEEEJ
8th Oct 2018, 19:06
I'm sorry a bit late to the party and probably a bit thick - but what am I supposed to see there ?!

Murray is claiming that it is the Ukranians that are behind the following image of Chipega (Boshirov) appearing on a Russian social media site from 2017.

See image at following link. The image is in fact perfectly genuine and was taken at the Far Eastern Military Academy. Murray wants to make it "go away" hence his ludicrous claim that the Ukrainians hacked the website and altered the image of Chipega.

https://ok.ru/profile/475421179769/album/856276858233/856276895865

See following post that shows not only another social media image but also a link to the Russian Ministry of Defence website showing visitors next to the wall. The image of Chipega is noted on the wall.

If you are bored enough you can read through the comments on Craig Murray's article and even see claims from his die-hard supporters that the specific Russian Ministry of Defence web page has been hacked. You couldn't make it up! Meanwhile the exact same image is still present on the Russian MoD web page!

https://www.pprune.org/10265340-post2878.html

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/bellingcats-very-obviously-fake-chepiga-photo/

Goodness only knows what Murray will be claiming when the identity of 'Petrov' is revealed! Apparently the identity of Petrov is going to be revealed tomorrow.

Update on that - breaking news Petrov is Doctor Alexander Mishkin.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/10/08/second-skripal-poisoning-suspect-identified-as-dr-alexander-mishkin/

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1049366470881398785

TEEEJ
9th Oct 2018, 17:13
Bellingcat: Full report: Skripal Poisoning Suspect Dr. Alexander Mishkin, Hero of Russia

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/10/09/full-report-skripal-poisoning-suspect-dr-alexander-mishkin-hero-russia/

TEEEJ
9th Oct 2018, 20:14
Another bit of poor opsec. Chepiga sold his car to Mishkin.

https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status/1049641399472324608

From following website in Russian. Right click on Google for English translation.

https://citeam.org/petrov-mishkin/

VP959
10th Oct 2018, 17:56
I've been reluctant to agree with the stories released by Bellingcat, but the weight of circumstantial evidence against the Russian GRU, and specifically the two GRU agents that have been identified, seems pretty overwhelming now. This BBC piece from Loyga, the birthplace of Alexander Mishkin, has convinced me that, beyond any reasonable doubt, the perpetrators of the chemical agent attack in Salisbury, that made 5 people seriously ill, and killed 1, were Alexander Mishkin and Anatoliy Chepiga: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-45813359/loyga-was-this-tiny-village-home-to-salisbury-suspect

Leaving aside Sergei Skripal, who could, perhaps, be seen as a legitimate target, I fail to see how any foreign government can justify authorising an unlawful attack, using a prohibited chemical weapon that carried such a massive risk to innocent people. It's only luck that meant that only one innocent person died, and that four innocent people survived this attack, albeit with life-changing effects.

On a lighter note, we're off to a concert of music by Russian composers at St Martins in Salisbury this weekend. The title of the concert is "From Russia With Love"...

Stan Woolley
10th Oct 2018, 18:41
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripals-bellingcat-gru-novichok-anatoly-chepiga-alexander-mishkin-putin-russia-a8577161.html

TEEEJ
10th Oct 2018, 19:39
Russian media Fontanka are presenting a third Skripal case suspect as Sergey Fedotov.

https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status/1050070405363486722

In Russian but interesting reading with right click Google English translation.

https://m.fontanka.ru/2018/10/10/124/

TEEEJ
10th Oct 2018, 20:07
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripals-bellingcat-gru-novichok-anatoly-chepiga-alexander-mishkin-putin-russia-a8577161.html

Good grief. The same Mary Dejevsky who believed that Boshirov and Petrov were just couriers for Russian Billionaires ;)

https://twitter.com/marydejevsky/status/1045069178800082945

https://russia-insider.com/en/petrov-and-boshirov-are-likely-private-courier-security-guys-transporting-valuable-documents-russian

DaveReidUK
10th Oct 2018, 20:17
By far most convincing explanation I've seen #skripals (https://twitter.com/hashtag/skripals?src=hash)
#Petrov (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Petrov?src=hash) and #Boshirov (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Boshirov?src=hash) Are Likely Private Courier-Security Guys Transporting Valuable Documents for Russian Billionaires https://russia-insider.com/en/node/24810#.W6v_yY-Xgn0.twitter … (https://t.co/Loqd9Xpq06)

She is surely having a laugh. I certainly had the best one I've had for ages after clicking on that link.

G-CPTN
10th Oct 2018, 20:44
Why did Russia expose Petrov and Boshirov in their interview to camera?
Without the footage it would have been harder to identify these two . . .

VP959
10th Oct 2018, 20:53
Why did Russia expose Petrov and Boshirov in their interview to camera?
Without the footage it would have been harder to identify these two . . .

Two reasons, perhaps:

1. They didn't realise that the cover of these two GRU guys was effectively already blown by the sloppy way that they had left a digital footprint in the public domain, OR

2. There's a bit of a turf war going on and the Kremlin wished to teach the GRU a lesson, by forcing these two guys to appear as idiots (and I'm damned certain they are far from being stupid).

TEEEJ
10th Oct 2018, 22:43
Russian media have conducted an interview with Loigi resident Alexander Lisichkin. He identified Petrov as Mishkin and revealed that his rank was Lieutenant Colonel.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1050130773884497921

Google English translation.

Kommersant FM managed to talk with Loigi resident Alexander Lisichkin. According to him, Mishkin in the village everyone knows and enthusiastically follows the publications about the investigation of the attack in Salisbury. In the guilt of Mishkin his countrymen do not believe.

- Do you remember your countryman Alexander Mishkin?

- Of course, my wife brought him up. I know his father well, and my wife Alexandra taught.

- We wanted to know what kind of person he was, what he did, what do you remember about him?

- Yes, the same as everything: he is a lieutenant colonel of the medical service, the Hero of Russia. Great guy, great. His whole village knows.

- And when did he leave and where did you not know?

“I wasn’t here at the time, I was working in Vologda, then in the Zhirinovsky party I served war and labor veterans for five years. I already arrived when he was in the service.

- And you did not see this interview with which it all started?

- Of course, I saw.

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3765359#id1651994

ORAC
11th Oct 2018, 06:15
I am more and more convinced, both from the article above and the report below, that their is a major turf war going on between the Russian security services - and that Putin has sanctioned the GRU being thrown to the wolves. I would not be surprised to see disbanded as such and being wound down to the equivalent of DSTI and suppprt for Spetnaz operation with the FSB taking over all foreign operations.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-website-fontanka-identifies-skripal-suspect-no-3-sergey-fedotov-cqd2mdxsp

Russian website Fontanka identifies third Skripal suspect as Sergey Fedotov

A third Kremlin secret agent was involved in the attempt to kill the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sergei-skripal-informer-slipped-away-after-spy-swap-for-russian-femme-fatale-anna-chapman-r6fpjczcl) in Salisbury, a Russian investigative website has claimed.

Sergey Fedotov, 45, arrived in Britain on March 2 on a different flight from the two suspects identified recently as Alexander Mishkin (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/military-doctor-named-as-second-novichok-spy-gkq63mxvd), a doctor (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/one-of-the-salisbury-would-be-killers-is-a-doctor-of-death-p2g53j8ss)with Russia’s GRU military intelligence, and Anatoliy Chepiga (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/salisbury-novichok-attack-suspect-exposed-as-russian-special-forces-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga-btvg3ftp5), a highly decorated GRU colonel, the Fontanka website reported yesterday. All three men are said to have flown out of Britain together on March 4, the day that Mr Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, were found slumped on a bench in the centre of Salisbury, after having been poisoned with the Soviet-produced novichok nerve agent.

Fontanka said records showed that Fedotov had travelled extensively throughout Europe, including to Britain in March 2016 and March 2017. It said his passport number was similar to those issued to suspected Russian military intelligence officers whose official place of residence has been identified as an address belonging to GRU (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gru-isnt-out-of-control-its-doing-what-putin-wants-886gbxlk6).

The report came as it emerged that Chepiga and Mishkin may have spied on Mr Skripal while he was in the Czech Republic in 2014 for meetings with local intelligence services.

Czech Radio, the public broadcaster, said yesterday that the suspects were in the country at the same time as Mr Skripal was advising Czech security services on how to uncover Russian spies. It cited an intelligence source. Mishkin, travelling under the name Alexander Petrov, was there from October 13 to 16, 2014, it reported. It also said that Chepiga, under the name Ruslan Boshirov, was in Prague on October 11 of that year. Both visits coincided with Mr Skripal’s trip to the country, the unnamed source said.

The Security Information Service, the Czech Republic’s main national intelligence agency, declined to comment on the report, as did the Russian embassy in Prague. Dmitry Peskov, President Putin’s spokesman, said that the Kremlin would only comment on allegations made through “official channels”........

Stan Woolley
11th Oct 2018, 06:52
All this rubbing of hands still leaves many unanswered questions that need to be answered.
Neil Clark attempts to sum things up thus far.

https://sputniknews.com/amp/columnists/201810091068735575-skripal-case-russia-uk-facts/?__twitter_impression=true

Andy_S
11th Oct 2018, 07:03
Stan,

Why are you stubbornly attached to conspiracy theories? Can't you even begin to accept the possibility that the Skripal poisoning is exactly what it appears to be?

Nige321
11th Oct 2018, 08:06
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/skripals-bellingcat-gru-novichok-anatoly-chepiga-alexander-mishkin-putin-russia-a8577161.html

Well she's impartial. Hilarious...

Sallyann1234
11th Oct 2018, 08:09
Sputnik is working hard to spread those theories. I suppose someone somewhere has to believe them, otherwise Putin has been wasting his country's money.

Stan Woolley
11th Oct 2018, 08:25
Stan,

Why are you stubbornly attached to conspiracy theories? Can't you even begin to accept the possibility that the Skripal poisoning is exactly what it appears to be?

That’s quite an interesting question.

I guess because some ‘conspiracy theories’ often turn out to be true when looked at many years hence, or at least partly true. I find it interesting how people that agree with the establishment view about most things, disagree with the vast majority of the media, the establishment and most importantly the Royalty of Truth - Scientists, argue like hell where Global Warming is concerned.( I don’t have an opinion either way btw.)The Skripal story is anything but straightforward, if it were there wouldn’t be such a long thread about it. Yet from day one many people were willing to accept blindly what the U.K. government said, even though the stench of propaganda was palpable. It may turn out that these people were right, but if so it was not on logic or evidence. It was on faith and faith alone! Faith, that much despised notion.

Others like me that would be quite willing to accept any plain facts but unwilling to swallow this poisonous propaganda are automatically called desparaging names. There is little or no thought about it., He or she must be a troll, a bot, a fool. It can’t be any other way it appears. Only a simpleton would think that way. Quite so.
Also, I no longer trust this govenment, or any other for that matter. I don’t trust Putin very much, but I think he’s much more predictable than many others, he’s constantly attacked by our media and the establishment. Where is the evidence that he’s that evil a person? Personally I would class the late John McCain as ‘evil’ minded, I would have been much more concerned if someone like him were in charge of a nuclear arsenal. If evil is to be judged, I don’t really think any human ought to be on the panel. Our minds are too full of bias and fear to give an honest answer. One man’s hero is another’s terrorist and all that...

Finally it’s just possible I just like to stand up for the idea of opposing, if there were no one to give an opinion which opposed the mainstream narrative, I believe we’d be in the really stinky doo doo very quickly. Actually that’s where we’re heading now.

I could go on, but I fear that you and others of a like mind aren’t willing to listen to ‘bots’ such as me. :8

Se la vie.

Stan Woolley
11th Oct 2018, 08:33
By the way, I’m much more interested in the psychology of all this than I am in the detail. I know, it’s all in the detail!

The certainty of most people about most things. Quite bizarre.

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 09:09
The vast majority of wild theories turn out to be fantasy. Everything from the Earth being flat, through contrail conspiracies to the many debunked flying saucer and alien abduction conspiracies have been shown to be bunkum, time and time again, yet thousands of people would rather believe an extremely improbable theory than any facts that are presented.

In this case we know, beyond any doubt whatsoever, from CCTV images, passport images, travel data and the open admission on Russian TV by Alexander Mishkin and Anatoliy Chepiga that they flew to the UK, then travelled to Salisbury twice, once the day before the attack and again on the day of the attack. We also know, beyond any doubt, that they walked a fair way out of the city centre, well off any tourist route, to a location just a few hundred metres from the housing estate where Sergei Skripal lived, on the morning of the attack (there are no known CCTV cameras in the housing estate itself).

Furthermore, villagers from the Russian village where Alexander Mishkin was born and grew up have confirmed that he was one of the people who were seen in Salisbury on the day of the attack. They have also confirmed that he was in the Russian military and received the Hero of Russia medal from President Putin. It seems clear that the people in the place he grew up are very proud of him.

We also know, beyond reasonable doubt, that the chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack was a very obscure compound developed in the former Soviet Union and never turned into a viable chemical weapon. There are good technical reasons why this compound wasn't well suited for use in a weapon. The only place known to have produced this exact compound to the high purity that the various OPCW labs have stated, is a chemical weapons facility that is in Russia and under the control of the Russian government.

Furthermore, we know, again beyond reasonable doubt, that the Soviet Union ran three facilities that specialised in the use of unusual toxic substances specifically for the purpose of carrying out covert assassinations. That knowledge and capability was retained by Russia, and we have hard evidence that it has been used in other attacks, perhaps the best known being the assassination of Alexander Litvenenko.

What we can't prove beyond reasonable doubt is that these two men actually carried out the attack in Salisbury. All the evidence we have seems circumstantial, at least as far as we know (and it seems probable that there is evidence that the investigation team may have that hasn't been made public, as this would be normal practice in any criminal investigation).

We also have no credible reason for these two men to have visited Salisbury. It seems bizarre for two men, now known to have been GRU agents, to have chosen to fly from Moscow to London in March, the day after a period of bad weather, visit Salisbury twice, then fly back to Moscow after their very short stay here, at the exact time and date that a former GRU colleague of theirs was attacked.

ORAC
11th Oct 2018, 11:11
And don’t forget trace amounts of the same agent being detected in their hotel room....

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 11:29
And don’t forget trace amounts of the same agent being detected in their hotel room....

I'd forgotten that, and it does tie them pretty definitively to the attack. It would be stretching credulity beyond any reasonable limit to think that they weren't associated with, or deeply involved with, this attack.

structor
11th Oct 2018, 12:03
Is it not also very interesting that the Trolls (who insist that they are not Trolls) have run out of steam?

Stan Woolley
11th Oct 2018, 12:41
The vast majority of wild theories turn out to be fantasy. Everything from the Earth being flat, through contrail conspiracies to the many debunked flying saucer and alien abduction conspiracies have been shown to be bunkum, time and time again, yet thousands of people would rather believe an extremely improbable theory than any facts that are presented.

We really know little, but we assume much. Yes, there are plenty of theories that I think are nonsense, but vast majority? That depends what you’re talking about. I notice that you didn’t include any of the more earthbound theories VP. Here’s a few of the ones that would probably have been called CTs in their day, had the CIA coined the term earlier than they did.

MK ultra
Operation Mockingbird
The Manhattan Project
Asbestos
The Tuskegee Syphilis Study
Operation Northwoods
1990 Testimony of Nayirah
Iran contra
CIA drug running
The Gulf of Tonkin

oh and the ufo thing, mmm. So much evidence. I’m not saying definitely yes, but you’re saying definitely no.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html

“The Term “Conspiracy Theory” Was Invented by the CIA In Order To Prevent Disbelief of Official Government Stories”

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/08/24/the-term-conspiracy-theory-was-invented-by-the-cia-in-order-to-prevent-disbelief-of-official-government-stories/

KelvinD
11th Oct 2018, 13:01
Mr Skripal was advising Czech security services on how to uncover Russian spies
I can't stop laughing at that:
"Here's how we spot Russian spies...."
"Look out behind you Mr Skripal...."
Didn't see that one coming, did he?
Anyway, references to CCTV proving this, that or the other, where is the CCTV from Skripal's house? It must exist. At the time of the incident, the press had a photo of a brace of female PCSO outside the house, guarding the police tape. A CCTV camera was in plain sight, mounted (if memory serves) near the top of a drain pipe. Given the presence of a CCTV camera after the fact, it is a pretty certain thing it would have been present before the fact.
Re the traces of poison found at the London hotel, I recently listened to an item on the radio in which the hotel proprietor was a bit miffed as the authorities had told him nothing about Novichok being found in one of his rooms until months after the searches.

De_flieger
11th Oct 2018, 13:13
Yes, the Trolls ("We keep telling you we arent trolls!") have gone quiet lately, flash8 and racedo were both very vocal posters, but both stopped posting within 6 hours of each other about 10 days ago. Both very active posters, with over 200 posts each on this thread, and between them responsible for approximately 15% of all posts on this thread.
Stan Woolley, do you have an alternative explanation or suggestion that isn't contradicted by the known facts that are beyond doubt in the case? VP959 has given a pretty thorough rundown of the publicly known and verifiable facts. Or alternatively Stan, what would you consider sufficient evidence to demonstrate the involvement of Russian state actors, without necessarily going as far as direct orders from Putin or similar?

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 13:15
The point I was primarily making was that, in this specific case, we do know a fair bit.

We know the true identities of the two men who visited Salisbury at the exact time that the attack on Sergei Skripal took place (confirmed by neighbours of one of them).
We know that they both work for the Russian military, most probably the GRU.
We know that Sergei Skripal also worked for the GRU.
We know that they were within a few hundred metres of Sergei Skripal's house around the time the attack took place.
We know that there were traces of the same obscure chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack in their hotel room in London.
We know they lied on Russian TV, saying they were just businessmen in the sports industry, on a sight seeing trip.

I've not read, or heard of, any credible alternative explanation for the behaviour of these two GRU officers on the dates they were here that fits the things we already know.

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 13:46
Anyway, references to CCTV proving this, that or the other, where is the CCTV from Skripal's house? It must exist. At the time of the incident, the press had a photo of a brace of female PCSO outside the house, guarding the police tape. A CCTV camera was in plain sight, mounted (if memory serves) near the top of a drain pipe. Given the presence of a CCTV camera after the fact, it is a pretty certain thing it would have been present before the fact.



Where are the CCTV cameras on his house? All I can see is what looks to be a phone cable or similar, but no camera.

https://i.postimg.cc/bJcsPq61/Sergei_Skripals_house.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/ZqyCXWLT/Sergei_Skripals_house_2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/sXY1Db8q/Sergei_Skripals_house_3.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ZBqJwsJx)

Less Hair
11th Oct 2018, 14:12
This whole affair feels a bit like the U-2 shootdown the other way around. Waiting for public apologies while you have proof at hand and then some slow barbecue.
I hope this ends operations like this especially the chemical weapons part is plain disgusting.

DaveReidUK
11th Oct 2018, 14:29
Anyway, references to CCTV proving this, that or the other, where is the CCTV from Skripal's house? It must exist. At the time of the incident, the press had a photo of a brace of female PCSO outside the house, guarding the police tape. A CCTV camera was in plain sight, mounted (if memory serves) near the top of a drain pipe. Given the presence of a CCTV camera after the fact, it is a pretty certain thing it would have been present before the fact.

This photo?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/680x495/stream_99397bd0_7930_4927_8f6b_b23dd671f552_5d924f70facd039a 5d491fc23340451d8d0594c0.jpg

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 14:31
No CCTV camera in that one, either. I've looked at as many online images of his house as I can find and none seem to show this mythical CCTV camera.

Captivep
11th Oct 2018, 15:01
The fifteen (sic) points in the article mentioned above (with my comments in italics).

1. We haven't seen any photographs or heard anything from Sergei Skripal since 4th March.

Leaving aside the probability he's been spirited away to some safe place somewhere else in the world, why on earth should we expect to have heard from him?

2. The last confirmed images we have of Skripal is CCTV footage (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/07/cctv-shows-sergei-skripal-shopping-days-before-he-collapsed) of him in a shop in Salisbury at 12.47pm on 27th February.

So?

3 .We haven't seen Yulia Skripal, Sergei's daughter since a short video statement (https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201805281064876172-yulia-skripal-novichok-poisoning/) featuring her was released on 23rd May.

See 1 & 2 above.

4. Investigative website Bellingcat contends that the two suspects identified by the police, and traveling under the names Ruslan Boshirov and Alexander Petrov, are in fact Anatoliy Chepiga, a highly decorated colonel from Russian military intelligence, and Alexander Mishkin, a doctor working for Russian military intelligence.

Indeed it does.

5. We haven't seen any CCTV footage of the Skripal's house on 4th March, or of the Skripals on the bench where they were found at around 4.15pm.

Even if it exists, why should we expect to have seen it?


6. We have seen CCTV footage, timed at 11.58am, of the two suspects walking along Wilton Road in an opposite direction to Salisbury Cathedral (which they claim to have come to Salisbury to visit), and in the direction of the Skripals house.

Indeed.


7. The football World Cup was held in Russia this summer for the first time. There was an anti-Russian neocon campaign in the west to undermine the event, calling for boycotts and fans not to travel there.

And the best way to do that was to fake a poisoning of a defector?

8. On Tuesday 6th March, two days after the Skripals were taken ill, arch-Putin critics Bill Browder and Ed Lucas were due to address British Parliamentarians on 'fake news'.
They were expected to make the case for tougher measures to be taken against Russia and Russian media.

So?

9. Anatoliy Chepiga has not, as yet, come forward to identify himself as being a different person from Ruslan Boshirov.

Unlikely, if he's an intelligence operative, don't you think?

10. Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, who was one of the first on the scene at the bench and who subsequently became ill, has not been interviewed by any news media, since being released from the hospital on 22nd March.

So?

11. The weather in and around Salisbury on the weekend of 2-4th March was inclement. It included heavy snow (https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2517293/more-snow-on-the-way-for-salisbury/), strong winds, and freezing rain. There were significant transport disruptions in southern England.

So?

12. The UK authorities believe that nerve agent novichok was sprayed by the two suspects on the Skripals front door knob at around noon on 4th March.

Indeed - as do many other agencies.


13. The two suspects were captured on CCTV exiting Salisbury railway station at 11.48am and then entering the station at 1.50pm, just over two hours later.

Which doesn't really help their case, does it?


14. We have seen no evidence that the Skripals returned home having been seen on CCTV at around 9.15am out in their car in Salisbury.

What evidence would you like? A signed affidavit from their neighbour?

15. The suspects have not been charged in connection with the death of Dawn Sturgess, who were are, told died from novichok poisoning having used perfume from a bottle discarded by the two men in a skip and given to her by her partner.

Not charged "yet"

16. In a letter to The Times on 14th March, Dr. Stephen Davies, Consultant in Emergency Medicine at the Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust wrote: 'May I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning…No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved'.

It was early days in the investigation and, at that time, no other member of the public had been affected.


15. Eyewitness Freya Church, who saw the Skripals in on the bench, told the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43297638): 'He was doing some strange hand movements, looking up to the sky….They looked like they had been taking something quite strong'.

Indeed

KelvinD
11th Oct 2018, 15:19
Dave & VP: Indeed the photo provided by Dave is the one I had in mind. And I no longer spot a camera! I therefore must smell a rodent and shall while away some time looking into that.
Incidentally, the CCTV camera was not mythical in 2009.

VP959
11th Oct 2018, 15:52
Dave & VP: Indeed the photo provided by Dave is the one I had in mind. And I no longer spot a camera! I therefore must smell a rodent and shall while away some time looking into that.
Incidentally, the CCTV camera was not mythical in 2009.

This is the old Google Streetview photo:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x498/google_streetview_photo_df8151ca40d5e50b32f398892961ff005e21 1ff6.jpg

The two differences I can spot (apart from the additional growth in the front garden) are that the extractor fan upstairs seems to have been removed and the hole bricked in (look carefully at the last image I posted earlier and you can see the added bricks) and a front porch, with an outward opening door, has been added.

No sign of a CCTV camera that I can see.

TEEEJ
11th Oct 2018, 17:34
Dave & VP: Indeed the photo provided by Dave is the one I had in mind. And I no longer spot a camera! I therefore must smell a rodent and shall while away some time looking into that.
Incidentally, the CCTV camera was not mythical in 2009.

What CCTV? Not even his best friend, Ross Cassidy, makes any mention of CCTV. Mr Cassidy even questions the police timeline and surely he would have made reference to CCTV?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6147167/Sergei-Skripal-tailed-eve-Novichok-attack-SECOND-spy-team.html

See footage of house. There is a vent/overflow underneath the toilet window.

uCrgMn2mEoc

In reference to your CCTV on drain pipe there used to be an extractor fan or boiler vent on the wall next to the drain pipe. That fan/vent was visible going back to 2009. Looks like some people have looked at the old Google Street View and mistook the fan/vent for a camera.

Link to 2009 Street View

https://goo.gl/maps/rndY1aTnC8r

TEEEJ
11th Oct 2018, 17:41
Dave & VP: Indeed the photo provided by Dave is the one I had in mind. And I no longer spot a camera! I therefore must smell a rodent and shall while away some time looking into that.
Incidentally, the CCTV camera was not mythical in 2009.

You can see the overflow pipe below the bathroom window. You can also see where the new bricks have been added when the vent/fan was removed. The image is reported to have been from two years ago.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/966x723/sergeiskripal_89f777d549724e3651ce1b28bd5fe47437e3e8aa.jpg

Effluent Man
12th Oct 2018, 10:52
But surely that serves to prove that they were not trolls at all. Merely like myself sceptical about any claim that comes from any government whose security services have a record of deception in these matters. Seems to me a wise position to question things until they become clear. I suppose now we just wait until the UK government suppliers Turkey in their spat with the Saudis. Sauce for the goose and all that.

structor
12th Oct 2018, 10:58
Of course you may be right. But in the light of the information that has progressively emerged, you would think that a sceptical but objective person might admit that his/her suspicions were incorrect?

TEEEJ
15th Oct 2018, 18:43
Mishkin from the early 2000s when he worked as a waiter in a St. Petersburg bistro during his medical studies.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/683x849/mishkin20002001_0204d2ae65aa574853432f54493fd7e56c32e52d.jpg

while studying at the Kirov Military Medical Academy in St. Petersburg, worked as a waiter at the Garson bistro. The art consultant Nikolay Evdokimov, who worked with Mishkin in 2000 and recognized him in an interview with Margarita Simonyan, told Rain about this.

From Russian media article. Google translation.

https://tvrain.ru/news/agent_gru_mishkin_vo_vremja_ucheby_rabotal_ofitsiantom_ego_u znali_byvshie_kollegi-473326/

atakacs
21st Nov 2018, 23:15
Seems the whole thing completely vanished from the radar.

More worrying: where are the Skripals? I can understand protective custody but I'm sure that a "free" (unscripted, in person with a panel of real journalists, if there are some remaining) interview would go a long way to ascertain the official narrative...

GordonR_Cape
22nd Nov 2018, 03:42
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46298959

The head of Russian military intelligence agency GRU, General Igor Korobov, has died at the age of 62, Russia's defence ministry says.

General Korobov, who took up the post in 2016, is said to have died after "a serious and long illness" on Wednesday.

The GRU was this year linked to a nerve agent attack in Britain on ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter.

General Korobov is understood to have faced criticism by Russian officials over the failure of the operation.

sitigeltfel
22nd Nov 2018, 04:39
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46298959

His predecessor, Igor Sergun, died of a heart attack at the age of 58.

Sallyann1234
22nd Nov 2018, 08:15
Seems the whole thing completely vanished from the radar.

More worrying: where are the Skripals?
Worrying for who? The agency that would like to finish off the job?

If I had been targeted by the GRU, I'd want to disappear off the radar too.

What is your motive in bringing this up now?

TEEEJ
22nd Nov 2018, 10:11
Seems the whole thing completely vanished from the radar.

More worrying: where are the Skripals? I can understand protective custody but I'm sure that a "free" (unscripted, in person with a panel of real journalists, if there are some remaining) interview would go a long way to ascertain the official narrative...


Has it? Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey will feature in a BBC Panorama programme to be shown on Thursday 22 November 2018 at 8pm (BBC1)

Programme title

Salisbury Nerve Agent Attack - The Inside Story

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bshm58

atakacs
22nd Nov 2018, 11:08
Worrying for who? The agency that would like to finish off the job?

If I had been targeted by the GRU, I'd want to disappear off the radar too.

What is your motive in bringing this up now?
Well there are still some people who think that the Skripals are not free of their movements and communication. I for one would be glad to see them, if possible taking part to a non scripted press conference... Even I would have some questions 😊

Funy that the BBC would come up with a program - I had no idea. I don't have high hopes but willl watch with interest.

Sallyann1234
22nd Nov 2018, 12:52
I suspect that the Skripals will be more concerned about their continuing personal safety, than what 'some people' might think.

But thank you for your concern. :ok:

Andy_S
22nd Nov 2018, 20:29
Has it? Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey will feature in a BBC Panorama programme to be shown on Thursday 22 November 2018 at 8pm (BBC1)

And here's an interview with him:

Skripal poisoning: Policeman's family 'lost everything' because of Novichok (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46290989)

flash8
22nd Nov 2018, 22:17
I for one would be glad to see them, if possible taking part to a non scripted press conference..Not likely to happen... unfortunately. I just hope they don't have Luke Harding... Mark Urban (both definitely not connected to MI6...) or even Bill "I'm not dodgy, honest" Browder to garnish the theatre as Nick's warm-up act.

El Grifo
22nd Nov 2018, 23:19
What a twisted and confusing piece is the BBC article !
Originally we were given to believe that DS Bailey was a first responder who found the aforesaid Skripals slumped on he park bench !
El G.

VP959
23rd Nov 2018, 07:00
What a twisted and confusing piece is the BBC article !
Originally we were given to believe that DS Bailey was a first responder who found the aforesaid Skripals slumped on he park bench !
El G.

Indeed it was, with a good dose of misleading information thrown in and very little detail as to what actually happened, in what sequence, or even what the agent was. A-234 had one very brief mention, and Mirzayanov was wheeled out yet again to get a bit for publicity of his book (an IMHO he's not a reliable source of information, anyway). Weird thing is Mirzayanov speaks good English; and has given interviews in English before, yet the BBC deliberately chose to have him speak in Russian with a translator. I can only assume that was a deliberate act on their part. Had the interviewed Uglev, who seems to have been the one with all the in-depth knowledge about A-234 and the novichok/foliant programme, then it might have been a bit more credible.

Krystal n chips
23rd Nov 2018, 07:34
Indeed it was, with a good dose of misleading information thrown in and very little detail as to what actually happened, in what sequence, or even what the agent was. A-234 had one very brief mention, and Mirzayanov was wheeled out yet again to get a bit for publicity of his book (an IMHO he's not a reliable source of information, anyway). Weird thing is Mirzayanov speaks good English; and has given interviews in English before, yet the BBC deliberately chose to have him speak in Russian with a translator. I can only assume that was a deliberate act on their part. Had the interviewed Uglev, who seems to have been the one with all the in-depth knowledge about A-234 and the novichok/foliant programme, then it might have been a bit more credible.

Does this mean you were not asked to appear on the programme to offer your own expertise then?..... or did you decline in the " national interest ".....induced by a signature on a bit of paper called the OSA.

However, what's really intriguing is how you are aware of the underlined above.....he could, strange though it may seem, have decided himself to give his interview in Russian. And there's no reason why he shouldn't really.

KelvinD
23rd Nov 2018, 07:53
El Grifo: My thoughts too! A couple of things re this detective didn't add up.
First, we get the surprise re the timing of his visit to Skripal's house, as mentioned by you.
Next we see reports in various media that he was dispatched to the house wearing a "hazmat" suit, while he actually said in interview that he was wearing a "forensic" suit. He later referred to having possibly contaminated himself while adjusting his goggles. That would point to a hazmat outfit, not common or garden forensic kit which is worn at all crime scenes where forensic evidence might be needed. If he was indeed wearing hazmat kit, why would that be? I seem to remember it was a matter of days after the event that the Novichok link was discovered so, during those first few days there would have been no requirement for hazmat kit etc.
Then there is the cousin of Yulia Skripal and her telephone call. She just happened to record the call. Does she routinely record all her inbound telephone calls? Or did she say to Yulia "Hang on a minute cuz, I just need to set up this tape recorder"? As the recorded phone call was immediately used by the Russian government, my take on it was that the recording equipment had been provided and fitted by the Russian government and I was surprised the reporter (Jane Corbin) didn't press that issue.

Fitter2
23rd Nov 2018, 07:58
It doesn't take much to bring the Moscow trolls out in force. Who are they trying to kid?

Nige321
23rd Nov 2018, 08:02
Does this mean you were not asked to appear on the programme to offer your own expertise then?..... or did you decline in the " national interest ".....induced by a signature on a bit of paper called the OSA.

However, what's really intriguing is how you are aware of the underlined above.....he could, strange though it may seem, have decided himself to give his interview in Russian. And there's no reason why he shouldn't really.

Perhaps he did choose to speak in Russian. Or perhaps VP is correct in that the Beeb pushed him for a bit of dramatic effect...

Either way, apart from Flash8, I really don't think I've ever come across a Pprune poster who could read so much into so little...

Krystal n chips
23rd Nov 2018, 08:14
Perhaps he did choose to speak in Russian. Or perhaps VP is correct in that the Beeb pushed him for a bit of dramatic effect...

Either way, apart from Flash8, I really don't think I've ever come across a Pprune poster who could read so much into so little...

Well, it's like this. To my uneducated mind, the use of the word "deliberately " was an unequivocal statement.......all that is required therefore, to prove me wrong, is factual evidence as to why this was the case. Asking questions about veracity and not taking anything at face value is a side effect of me being thick you understand.

Sallyann1234
23rd Nov 2018, 09:09
Well there's a surprise. The pprune experts are dissatisfied with a BBC programme.

There was a production team chucking in every (ir)relevant bit of information to make and sell their programme.

A policeman strictly limited in what he was allowed to say, and whose memory is probably affected by the trauma he suffered.

And the Moscow trolls waiting to call it official government propaganda.

As they say, nothing to see here...

KelvinD
23rd Nov 2018, 13:25
The PPRuNe experts are dissatisfied with a BBC programme.
I shall take that as a dig at my comment. Well, for the education of yourself, I don't ever remember being dissatisfied with a BBC programme. Occasionally disappointed perhaps. In the case of last night's programme, I was doubly disappointed as I have watched more than a few of Jane Corbin's programmes and have never been disappointed to the extent I was with last night's. (Incidentally, I was equally disappointed with Tomorrow's World too!).
I very much doubt the policeman was restricted in what he was allowed to say.
In the case of last night's programme, I think my disappointment may have been increased as a result of the pre-programme publicity. I think I may have expected too much from it.
In fact, I had even more reason to be disappointed with a BBC programme today. I discovered the Test Match Special has lost the broadcasting rights to England cricket's overseas matches!

Sallyann1234
23rd Nov 2018, 13:39
I shall take that as a dig at my comment. Well, for the education of yourself, I don't ever remember being dissatisfied with a BBC programme. Occasionally disappointed perhaps. In the case of last night's programme, I was doubly disappointed as I have watched more than a few of Jane Corbin's programmes and have never been disappointed to the extent I was with last night's. (Incidentally, I was equally disappointed with Tomorrow's World too!).
I very much doubt the policeman was restricted in what he was allowed to say.
In the case of last night's programme, I think my disappointment may have been increased as a result of the pre-programme publicity. I think I may have expected too much from it.
In fact, I had even more reason to be disappointed with a BBC programme today. I discovered the Test Match Special has lost the broadcasting rights to England cricket's overseas matches!
Nothing personal at all, I assure you!

It was a general comment. At any given time there is usually a well-supported thread running on pprune to criticise the BBC. The latest one was running just yesterday:
https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/615590-bbc-news-all-they-can-do.html

You are free to decide whether the cap fits. :O.

denachtenmai
23rd Nov 2018, 14:02
[QUOTE] Does this mean you were not asked to appear on the programme to offer your own expertise then?..... or did you decline in the " national interest ".....induced by a signature on a bit of paper called the OSA.

However, what's really intriguing is how you are aware of the underlined above.....he could, strange though it may seem, have decided himself to give his interview in Russian. And there's no reason why he shouldn't really.
Sir, Sir, knc is being nasty to VP959, again.

WIDN62
23rd Nov 2018, 16:49
Yes, more questions than answers after last night's programme! Here's 2 for starters:
I wonder why MI6 homed the Skripals in Salisbury - only 15 minutes from Porton Down.
There was no mention of the treatment they received in hospital - only that it was invasive. I bet the NHS alone did not have the expertise to save them. Are they still alive because they were only 15 minutes from Porton Down?

VP959
23rd Nov 2018, 17:55
Yes, more questions than answers after last night's programme! Here's 2 for starters:
I wonder why MI6 homed the Skripals in Salisbury - only 15 minutes from Porton Down.
There was no mention of the treatment they received in hospital - only that it was invasive. I bet the NHS alone did not have the expertise to save them. Are they still alive because they were only 15 minutes from Porton Down?

It seems to be just coincidence that Sergei, Ludmilla and Yulia Skripal originally chose to settle in Salisbury (presumably paid for by the UK government). When Ludmilla died, Sergei may have felt a desire to stay, as she's buried in the cemetery nearby. When his son died, who's also buried in the same cemetery, that may have reinforced his ties to Salisbury, even though Yulia had decided to move back to Russia.

The treatment would have been aimed to maintain basic bodily function whilst organs shut down due to inoperative nerve pathways, so an induced coma and full life support for the most seriously affected victims. Additionally, partially effective antidotes would have been administered, to try and limit the effect of the agent. These treatments are themselves toxic, so there is a really tricky balance between trying to counter the effect of the agent whilst not causing further harm. My (limited) understanding is that the medical care provided succeeded (but sadly not for Dawn Sturgess) because it was a multidisciplinary approach, by necessity (they didn't know what they were dealing with for the first couple of days).

Yes, they did receive advice from DSTL Porton Down, and yes it was key to helping the medical team understand what they were dealing with, but I doubt very much that anyone from Porton Down was directly involved in the care or treatment of any of the victims, as that is not the role of that establishment; it is entirely focussed on understanding the nature of agents, and most importantly providing our military with protective equipment and detection technology.

KelvinD
23rd Nov 2018, 18:18
Sallyan1234: I am totally on board with your comment re the BBC News dig and don't subscribe to that view at all. I have t admit, I am an enthusiastic consumer of the BBC's output and don't agree at all with any of the baseless comments to be found here about the BBC's bias to one political side or another.

atakacs
23rd Nov 2018, 19:27
Sallyan1234: I am totally on board with your comment re the BBC News dig and don't subscribe to that view at all. I have t admit, I am an enthusiastic consumer of the BBC's output and don't agree at all with any of the baseless comments to be found here about the BBC's bias to one political side or another.

Seriously?

Brexit, Scotish referendum... just a few examples of utter and shameless bias. When it comes to the matter discussed here I completely agree that the latest Panorama was just junk. They haven't even tried to structure it, regardless of where you might sit on the underlying issue. Not that one would have expected much but to be enthusiastic about such a poor display...

And I'd really know where Mark Urban sits in all this.

Sallyann1234
23rd Nov 2018, 19:35
Seriously?

Brexit, Scotish referendum... just a few examples of utter and shameless bias. When it comes to the matter discussed here I completely agree that the latest Panorama was just junk. They haven't even tried to structure it, regardless of the where you might sit on the underlying issue. Not that one would have expected much but to be enthusiastic about such a poor display...
Yes, you're quite right.
You'd be better off watching RT for a much less biased news source..

flash8
23rd Nov 2018, 19:35
Seriously?

Brexit, Scotish referendum... just a few examples of utter and shameless bias. When it comes to the matter discussed here I completely agree that the latest Panorama was just junk. They haven't even tried to structure it, regardless of the where you might sit on the underlying issue. Not that one would have expected much but to be enthusiastic about such a poor display...
Can't comment on the Policeman interview as I haven't seen it yet, however, the Brexit (pro Remain) bias of the BBC sometimes was absolutely breathtaking. I once heard Razia Iqbal? on R4 state "and now we introduce the INDEPENDENT brexit specialist Prof so and so"..... she emphasised the independent which perked my ears up (wasn't really interested).,. the Prof spent five minutes completely =trashing= the leave campaign... and then good old Razia came back on (and I swear) said "and that was the INDEPENDENT Brexit expert Prof...". At the time I had to laugh it was so shameless.

You'd be better off watching RT for a much less biased news source..RT may have its faults... but all state broadcasters are biased, would argue they are no more or less so than the BBC.

TEEEJ
23rd Nov 2018, 20:39
Next we see reports in various media that he was dispatched to the house wearing a "hazmat" suit, while he actually said in interview that he was wearing a "forensic" suit. He later referred to having possibly contaminated himself while adjusting his goggles. That would point to a hazmat outfit, not common or garden forensic kit which is worn at all crime scenes where forensic evidence might be needed. If he was indeed wearing hazmat kit, why would that be? I seem to remember it was a matter of days after the event that the Novichok link was discovered so, during those first few days there would have been no requirement for hazmat kit etc. .

Do you not think that the medical services would have liaised with the other emergency services and treated it as a potential chemical incident?

Things weren't adding up for the medical staff.

From the BBC Panorama programme.

Lorna Wilkinson, Director of Nursing, Salisbury District Hospital.

We were trying to piece together what could have happened to the two patients that we had here. It felt unusual because they weren't responding in the way we would have probably expected them to.

That is why you have the images of the Fire Brigade in hazmat suits at the site of the bench where the Skripals were found.

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/7485912/

The Fire Brigade personnel in hazmat suits were imaged in the early evening of 4th March at the bench. They were taken by photographer Tom Gregory.

At 5.16pm on Sunday 4th March, Salisbury Journal editor Joe Riddle, 32, received a tip-off about a potential story for his paper. An air ambulance had landed in Salisbury’s central car park and police had set up a cordon around a bench in the Maltings shopping arcade. “We thought it was a routine crime or accident,” says Riddle. “Somebody might have had an overdose or there might have been a stabbing or a nasty assault. That would be a big story for us. So I got on our little WhatsApp reporters’ group and said, ‘Can anyone go down and just find out what’s happening?’”

By the time his reporter Rebecca Hudson arrived with photographer Tom Gregory, two people had been removed from the scene and taken to Salisbury District Hospital. Police told Hudson and Gregory that they were investigating whether the incident was related to drugs. Fentanyl – an opioid used as pain medication and which is 50 times more powerful than morphine – was mentioned.

Then something strange happened. “People came down and started putting on these special biohazard suits that made them look like Minions,” says Riddle. “They started clearing something up, but you couldn’t really see what it was.” Gregory started taking photos. “There were great pictures of [the emergency services] hosing each other down and scraping stuff into special containers,” says Riddle.

From

https://www.slow-journalism.com/delayed-gratification-magazine/toxic-shock-salisbury-in-the-aftermath-of-the-skripal-poisoning

According to the BBC Panorama programme it was around midnight that Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey and two colleagues were sent to Sergei Skripal's house.

Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey.

We had to make sure that there was no other casualties in the house. It was vital for us to make sure what had actually happened. We decided to protect ourselves and to protect the scene we would wear full forensic suits

Yes goggles and masks would be part of that forensic suit. Remember they are searching the house for other possible casualties. They could have come across other bodies within the house and the full forensic suit would have given them protection against bodily fluids and other possible contaminants. I don't see what the problem is about Nick Bailey and his colleagues wearing goggles and face mask?

VP959
23rd Nov 2018, 20:54
FWIW, normal forensic gloves would be latex, or possibly PVC/polyurethane if the wearer was allergic to latex. Latex is permeable to agents like A-234 to some degree, plus the the standard way of doffing forensic gloves offers little protection to the user, as the intention is primarily to protect evidence, not protect the wearer.

Pontius Navigator
23rd Nov 2018, 21:45
Perhaps he did choose to speak in Russian. Or perhaps VP is correct in that the Beeb pushed him for a bit of dramatic effect...

This is a standard BBC technique, especially on radio, where they let you hear a respondent speaking in their native language before an interpreter takes over and the native voice fades out.

This is doubly annoying as non-native speakers can not understand the opening chat and there is insufficient for a native speaker to understand either.

Sallyann1234
23rd Nov 2018, 22:16
This is a standard BBC technique, especially on radio, where they let you hear a respondent speaking in their native language before an interpreter takes over and the native voice fades out.

This is doubly annoying as non-native speakers can not understand the opening chat and there is insufficient for a native speaker to understand either.

But to be fair, it does allow the listener to hear at least something of the original speech, and for anyone knowing that person to verify they are genuine.

Pontius Navigator
24th Nov 2018, 07:24
But to be fair, it does allow the listener to hear at least something of the original speech, and for anyone knowing that person to verify they are genuine.
Possibly, but it is a recent innovation. When news was related by telex or telephone we accept it as true. I see it more as adding local colour to the report. In GW1 reporters reported, they didn't add local voices to suggest authenticity.

Sallyann1234
24th Nov 2018, 08:40
To quote Pooh-Bah, it's "Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and ..."

Krystal n chips
24th Nov 2018, 09:05
Possibly, but it is a recent innovation. When news was related by telex or telephone we accept it as true. I see it more as adding local colour to the report. In GW1 reporters reported, they didn't add local voices to suggest authenticity.

This may have something to do with the fact that, with ( select weapons of choice that make loud bangs and flashes, plus one or two tanks and a small platoon or two taking in the sights ) being shown on our screens, then consulting the local population would have been a bit superfluous really. .....with the exception of "Chemical Ali " that is.

Cornish Jack
25th Nov 2018, 16:46
The British overwhelming passion for keeping everything secret means that there's no way that we 'plebs' will ever know 'the truth', so just forget it. The Panorama programme was what it was - a pointless rehash of already publicised titbits, so nothing new there then. Having sat through it, however, one thing stood out without any question being triggered within the programme - the Russian pair wore jeans and 'bomber jackets' to dispense (FROM A SPRAY BOTTLE) a nasty concoction which renders people catatonic unless they have full hazmat protection ... and the stuff was sufficiently liberated as to be traceable in their hotel room!
Incompetent, lucky, lazy or now suffering the effects of exposure like their victims???? Who knows ... but who KNOWS anything?:confused:

Nige321
8th Jan 2019, 10:34
Now the house is being 'deep cleaned' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6568545/Sergei-Skripals-Salisbury-home-dismantled-decontaminate-area.html)

Why take the roof off...??

G-CPTN
8th Jan 2019, 11:23
Did the Skripals enter the house (after contamination)? or were they just leaving? and did the Policeman enter (and, therefore, contaminate the interior)?

Stan Woolley
8th Jan 2019, 12:24
A video on behalf of the government/MI5/ MI6. :ok:

https://youtu.be/vDs57R6MYsY

A_Van
8th Jan 2019, 14:39
Some new rumours have been published in English (not Russian) media: a British think tank presumably involved in a dirty play:
https://medium.com/@tomsecker/was-the-integrity-initiative-behind-the-salisbury-poisoning-ad5e1269b258

DaveReidUK
8th Jan 2019, 15:54
Some new rumours have been published in English (not Russian) media: a British think tank presumably involved in a dirty play:
https://medium.com/@tomsecker/was-the-integrity-initiative-behind-the-salisbury-poisoning-ad5e1269b258

Gosh. Organisation set up to combat Russian disinformation gets accused of dirty tricks against the Kremlin.

Talk about getting your retaliation in first. :O

racedo
8th Jan 2019, 16:22
Gosh. Organisation set up to combat Russian disinformation gets accused of dirty tricks against the Kremlin.

Talk about getting your retaliation in first. :O

Details of this organisation have been around for weeks. It is interesting when you read through it the names that keep popping up and the use of propoganda clusters across European countries used to manipulate the media.

Perhaps even more of an issue is that these organisations have been openly briefing and publishing stories against HM Leader of the Opposition, one Jeremy Corbyn. Hence UK Government cash is being used to fund an organisation against a UK political leader.

Sallyann1234
8th Jan 2019, 16:29
Details of this organisation have been around for weeks. It is interesting when you read through it the names that keep popping up and the use of propoganda clusters across European countries used to manipulate the media.

Perhaps even more of an issue is that these organisations have been openly briefing and publishing stories against HM Leader of the Opposition, one Jeremy Corbyn. Hence UK Government cash is being used to fund an organisation against a UK political leader.
Hello racedo. Right on cue as usual. :ok:

racedo
8th Jan 2019, 16:32
Hello racedo. Right on cue as usual. :ok:

Sallytroll returns

Sallyann1234
8th Jan 2019, 16:37
Sallytroll returns
I never left :ok: