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Pontius Navigator
9th Aug 2018, 08:20
Mind you, it could have come in with a packet of fish fingers.....

Definitely fishy there.

Krystal n chips
9th Aug 2018, 09:29
As already quoted, the quantity of agent used has been estimated as being 50 to 100mg - I used the upper figure, making a reasonable assumption that there would have been some agent left over after applying it to the door handle, plus 100mg of this agent that had not been diluted in any carrier has a liquid volume of around 90mls. If we assume that the container used was a perfume bottle, then these commonly come in sizes of around 60ml to 120ml, which fits the volume range reasonably well for a 100mg sample of this agent.

That's a suitably plausible explanation albeit had you included the words " say in the region of " or "approximately " before the amount stated, this would have alleviated the inference you knew a specific quantity.

Nige 321....nice try, but, sadly, missing out some rather pertinent information does show your lack of understanding as to basic statistics.

A_Van
9th Aug 2018, 10:03
Are you sure you are talking about 50-100 mg (milligram)?

Provided an English teaspoon is some 3,55 ml (millilitre) and weight of the substance is slightly higher than water, the amount of 50-100 mg will be seen as 1/70....1/140 "volume" of a teaspoon. Somewhat between 1 and 2 drops.
If in a perfume bottle, the latter would look empty and substance would be just smeared on the bottom.

Nige321
9th Aug 2018, 10:05
That's a suitably plausible explanation albeit had you included the words " say in the region of " before the amount stated, this would have alleviated the impression you were stating a specific quantity.

Nige 321....nice try, but, sadly, missing out some rather pertinent information does show your lack of understanding as to basic statistics.

No, it shows your lack of being able to click on a link and read it yourself....
I was in a hurry, so I gave you enough to tweak your interest.

Which begs the question, because so far to be best of my knowledge, the quantity of agent hasn't been published in the public domain

Nice try, but a 5 second search revealed, as ever, you were wrong.
How about an apology to VP?

KelvinD
9th Aug 2018, 10:09
Nige321: Nice try, but a 5 second search revealed, as ever, you were wrong
I would say it was yourself that was wrong. The quantity of agent has not been published. A "guess" was published. But you knew that as you had read the entire article.

VP959
9th Aug 2018, 10:22
Are you sure you are talking about 50-100 mg (milligram)?

Provided an English teaspoon is some 3,55 ml (millilitre) and weight of the substance is slightly higher than water, the amount of 50-100 mg will be seen as 1/70....1/140 "volume" of a teaspoon. Somewhat between 1 and 2 drops.
If in a perfume bottle, the latter would look empty and substance would be just smeared on the bottom.

Thanks for pointing out a schoolboy error - I'll delete the earlier post! I was an order of magnitude out - not sure why, just an early-morning brain fart. Seems to be happening more often as get older...

FWIW, the density of the agent is around 1.1

It looks as if there was either a great deal more agent than 100mg if it really was in a perfume bottle, or perhaps it was diluted in some form of carrier, perhaps to make it more viscous (something I think was mentioned earlier as a theory).

currawong
9th Aug 2018, 10:24
Are you sure you are talking about 50-100 mg (milligram)?

Provided an English teaspoon is some 3,55 ml (millilitre) and weight of the substance is slightly higher than water, the amount of 50-100 mg will be seen as 1/70....1/140 "volume" of a teaspoon. Somewhat between 1 and 2 drops.
If in a perfume bottle, the latter would look empty and substance would be just smeared on the bottom.

A standard format for describing toxic products is grams per litre, or g/Lt.

Usually only a lab or manufacturing facility will deal with technical grade or "pure" product. Not the end user.

So something might be 350 g/Lt, meaning 350 grams in one litre of carrier which may be a solvent, oil or plain old water depending on what the intended use is.

Diluted to some useable format in other words.

Nige321
9th Aug 2018, 10:32
Nige321:
I would say it was yourself that was wrong. The quantity of agent has not been published. A "guess" was published. But you knew that as you had read the entire article.

I quote KnC
so far to be best of my knowledge, the quantity of agent hasn't been published in the public domain

I posted a link to figures, right or wrong, that are in the public domain.
Which part of 'wrong' are you struggling with?

atakacs
9th Aug 2018, 11:59
Did we get (I might have missed it) a positive match between the agent in the "discarded shrink wraped perfume bottle" (I am still having a hard time with this one) and the one used on the Skripals?
There have been ample time to perform that analysis...

VP959
9th Aug 2018, 12:04
Did we get (I might have missed it) a positive match between the agent in the "discarded shrink wraped perfume bottle" (I am still having a hard time with this one) and the one used on the Skripals?
There have been ample time to perform that analysis...


The OPCW lab reps were due over here this week, I believe, to take independent samples and analyse them. Not sure that the results will be made public though, as their analysis may well form part of the evidence in the ongoing murder enquiry.

I'm not convinced that we can rely on Charlie Rowley's media statements about the bottle he found being "shrink wrapped" or "sealed". There was also mention by him of it being "broken" at one point. I doubt we can even begin to guess as to the condition of the bottle when he found it, given the various differing media accounts. My guess is that it suits the authorities to have a confusing public domain account of what he found, too.

Lascaille
9th Aug 2018, 13:00
I'm not convinced that we can rely on Charlie Rowley's media statements about the bottle he found being "shrink wrapped" or "sealed".

You have no reason to disbelieve that. The bottle being sealed perfectly fits the scenario I described several days ago: multiple weapons were prepared and the unused one was thrown into a commercial bin that would be handled mechanically. Charlie Rowley found it while dumpster diving but has too much pride to admit that to the press. The weapons would be prepared to look _exactly_ like a retail product. I even suggested a product based on the size of the box and Charlie's description of needing to 'assemble' the spray. You are not being logical by assuming that a very clear statement about the item being shrinkwrapped is unreliable.

I am not writing these things because I am clairvoyant, I am just describing the simplest answers.

atakacs
9th Aug 2018, 13:45
The OPCW lab reps were due over here this week, I believe, to take independent samples and analyse them. Not sure that the results will be made public though, as their analysis may well form part of the evidence in the ongoing murder enquiry.

I'm not convinced that we can rely on Charlie Rowley's media statements about the bottle he found being "shrink wrapped" or "sealed". There was also mention by him of it being "broken" at one point. I doubt we can even begin to guess as to the condition of the bottle when he found it, given the various differing media accounts. My guess is that it suits the authorities to have a confusing public domain account of what he found, too.Well the initial match to an 30 odd year batch has been made semi public (no-one could manage to provide a relevant link as far as I understand). I'd say wichever way the analysis has concluded it is highly relevant information and I fail to understand, at least under the current narrative, how if could be seen as needing to be kept secret. The Russians (whatever that means, as long as Putin is involved it is fine) did it, end of the story. Why do an actual, transparent investigation?

VP959
9th Aug 2018, 14:00
I get the strong feeling that the government is gently trying to move away from the initial "the Russian government did it" story that was initially put out, and rather exaggerated by certain individuals that should have known better.

It seems that the identity of at least some of the individuals involved may be known, and as this bottle may well be key evidence in the murder case they are building I doubt very much that we will be told anything about it at all that's reliable. I would assume that, for as long as there is an open murder case being investigated, and evidence for that being collected, it's pretty unlikely that details of that evidence will be made public.

Take any other murder case before the completion of a trial. How much detailed evidence about the weapon used is released to the public before the end of the trial? Very little usually. They may say it was a gun, may even give the calibre or type, but they aren't going to release the ballistic data or serial number to the public. In this case, the specific nature of the agent in each of the two cases is, I think, akin to the ballistic information about a gun used to murder someone, in evidential terms, and I've never heard of that sort of evidence being made public before it's presented in court. I'm happy to be proved wrong by someone that knows the rules of evidence that may apply.

Sallyann1234
9th Aug 2018, 14:53
I was just about to say something very similar, but VP beat me to it.
A man has just been arrested and charged with the murder of the midwife Samantha Eastwood. No details of the alleged murder or possible weapon have been released, and will not be made public until the trial. His defence counsel will of course be made aware of any evidence.

Similarly in the case of the Novichok attacks, if defendants are brought to court we can expect to hear the alleged details. Otherwise any demands for more information will be denied, and quite rightly.

Effluent Man
9th Aug 2018, 20:35
I have been looking for, and failing to find, details of the US sanctions on Russia. It's odd that the BBC sire no longer has mention of the story. Was it fake news?

racedo
9th Aug 2018, 21:22
I have been looking for, and failing to find, details of the US sanctions on Russia. It's odd that the BBC sire no longer has mention of the story. Was it fake news?

Nope BUT it appears the push came from within State Dept and not The White House........................... there is a train of thought that State Dept are happy to undermine President.
Interesting if true.

KelvinD
9th Aug 2018, 21:27
Effluent Man: The new sanctions will take effect on or around 22 August. They cover exports of sensitive electronic components and other technologies that can have military applications. There will also be some further restrictions on Russian access to US financial services.
Can be found here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45126207?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c0j915myy8kt/russian-spy-poisoning&link_location=live-reporting-story

Effluent Man
9th Aug 2018, 21:46
Seems to me like internal politicking rather than anything to do with the actual events.

TEEEJ
9th Aug 2018, 22:22
I have been looking for, and failing to find, details of the US sanctions on Russia. It's odd that the BBC sire no longer has mention of the story. Was it fake news?

Imposition of Chemical and Biological Weapons Control and Warfare Elimination Act Sanctions on Russia

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/08/285043.htm

A_Van
10th Aug 2018, 07:30
....

Similarly in the case of the Novichok attacks, if defendants are brought to court we can expect to hear the alleged details. Otherwise any demands for more information will be denied, and quite rightly.

As it was mentioned many times here, most of the countries (incl. Russia, US, UK etc. etc.) do not extradite their citizen, especially just on vague request/demand.
But there are known procedures how to move forward. First, AFAIK, a criminal case was opened in Russia immediately after the event in March, related to attempt of murder (of the country citizens).
If UK finds solid evidence concerning anybody living/hiding in Russia and share these data, the suspects would be taken to a court (in Russia). Moreover, the procedures allow foreign investigators to arrive here and participate in the (interrogation) process. Why to decline such an option? Is it just because there is nothing more than plane tickets matching the period in time and camera records showing that they were in Salisbury on that day?

Sallyann1234
10th Aug 2018, 07:45
As it was mentioned many times here, most of the countries (incl. Russia, US, UK etc. etc.) do not extradite their citizen, especially just on vague request/demand.
But there are known procedures how to move forward. First, AFAIK, a criminal case was opened in Russia immediately after the event in March, related to attempt of murder (of the country citizens).
If UK finds solid evidence concerning anybody living/hiding in Russia and share these data, the suspects would be taken to a court (in Russia). Moreover, the procedures allow foreign investigators to arrive here and participate in the (interrogation) process. Why to decline such an option? Is it just because there is nothing more than plane tickets matching the period in time and camera records showing that they were in Salisbury on that day?
More half truths and what-aboutery.
The UK does extradite for crimes committed in other countries. Remember Mr. Assange?

The crimes committed in Salisbury, in the UK, should properly be tried in the UK.

The police investigation is of course still underway and there is no chance that evidence will be produced prematurely to satisfy apologists such as yourself.

VP959
10th Aug 2018, 08:00
Given that Russia won't extradite its own citizens for trials for crimes committed outwith Russia, the whole things moot.

As I understand it, the way the extradition process works, for countries (like the UK) that do allow extradition, is that the country making the request does so with only enough evidence to prove that they have grounds for arrest and trial. That will never be all the evidence, just that which meets the criteria to arrest and charge a suspect, no more. There are very good reasons for not allowing all the evidence to effectively be made public before any trial, the key one being that it may well influence a jury ahead of any trial if it's presented with bias in the media (which it would be).

A_Van
10th Aug 2018, 08:47
The UK does extradite for crimes committed in other countries. Remember Mr. Assange?
...


Yes, a strange guy hiding himself for many years in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. He is an Australian, not a UK citizen.
Russia extradicts non-Russian citizens for crimes committed in other countries, too. The same do Spain, France (where Russian mafiosi like to escape to) and many others...

Stan Woolley
11th Aug 2018, 07:36
More coal on the fire?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-explosion-military-hardware-factory-death-wiltshire-a8487121.html

VP959
11th Aug 2018, 08:29
More coal on the fire?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-explosion-military-hardware-factory-death-wiltshire-a8487121.html



How on earth is that related?

I drive past the Chemring site at High Post (it's on the site of the old High Post airfield) quite often and frequently see them test firing flares and countermeasures there. This sounds very much like like an industrial accident to me, something that's always a possibility when pyrotechnics are being manufactured in volume. It's not a government site; hasn't been since High Post airfield closed many decades ago, AFAIK. IIRC, High Post airfield closed sometime shortly after the end of WWII, and was taken over by Pains-Wessex Ltd, then Chemring, as a pyrotechnics factory, as it's remote from any settlement, up on the hill at High Post, so ideal for potentially dangerous activities like this.

I can't seen any possible connection between an industrial accident at a pyrotechnics factory at High Post and the use of a chemical warfare agent in Salisbury. How do you believe they could possibly be connected? Is this yet another conspiracy theory brewing? If so, then perhaps you might want to throw in some of the recent activities at BDN as well, just to make add more fuel for the conspiracy theorists...

DON T
11th Aug 2018, 08:51
VP , I think Stan must have read that it happened in UK and therefore must be connected. Of course all us yokels that live in Wiltshire will be suspects��

DaveReidUK
11th Aug 2018, 08:57
More coal on the fire?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/salisbury-explosion-military-hardware-factory-death-wiltshire-a8487121.html

While it's true that coal, in dust form, can produce an explosion, I think we can rule it out here.

flash8
11th Aug 2018, 11:03
So much for flash8s theory that Britain has no support. Boris is on holiday so he won’t have had a hand in this..

Well Nige, this is the State Department exacting its revenge not so much on Russia as on Trump. The UK is just a useful tool to bang Russia over the head with :)

Pontius Navigator
11th Aug 2018, 12:33
I don't have an airfield called High Post, so you have another name for it?

VP959
11th Aug 2018, 12:38
I don't have an airfield called High Post, so you have another name for it?

High Post (Salisbury) - Airfields of Britain Conservation Trust UK (http://www.abct.org.uk/airfields/airfield-finder/high-post-salisbury/)

http://www.ukairfieldguide.net/airfields/High-Post

fitliker
11th Aug 2018, 13:11
You could banned for aviation content or a time out :)

VP959
11th Aug 2018, 13:17
You could banned for aviation content or a time out :)

You're right - I should have given a "aviation content" warning.

Mind you, it seems High Post airfield closed in 1947, so it's not really aviation related.

Interesting history, though, as apparently it was a satellite assembly factory for Spitfires during the war. When Southampton became vulnerable to bombing attacks it seems Supermarine set up smaller assembly plants all over the place, and there happened to already be a private flying club at High Post, so they just added some hangars there and used the existing runway to fly the completed aircraft out. It seems to have been one of several similar satellite assembly plants relatively nearby, there was also one at Chilbolton, now an industrial estate with a small flying club still operating off a grass strip.

fitliker
11th Aug 2018, 13:24
Even a broken clock is right twice a day , so the odds of me being right once in a lifetime must be looking good . Kind regards :)

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2018, 13:24
Zoom-in to see the 'explosive' huts (separated to prevent collateral damage):-
High Post today. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/High+Post+Business+Park,+A345,+Salisbury+SP4+6AT/@51.1236109,-1.7939033,3414m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4873ef2a57d5d64d:0xec033474e31bdf5 7!8m2!3d51.1259434!4d-1.7889893)

fitliker
11th Aug 2018, 16:01
I knew a RAF Lancaster mechanic who was napping in similar Nissan hut as those temporary nissans huts still there in those pictures, when a staffing run from the Luftwaffe removed the blanket from him. Randy said he would have been shot through the spine if he was resting on his side . He later went on to work on converted Lancaster bombers to spray chemicals that saved forests from spruce bud worm infestations . The chemicals targeted the tree killing Worms and left the birds and other animals unharmed compared to the chemicals used previously.

pulse1
11th Aug 2018, 16:42
Of course all us yokels that live in Wiltshire will be suspects��

And, of course, we are missing the most obvious villain of the lot. It must be the one on here who knows more about the poisons used by the Russians, who knows exactly where they come from and how they are manufactured, who worked at Porton and knows the back streets of Salisbury from hours spent riding round the town on his bicycle planning the best route away from his crime. And then, best of all, he bluffs it out by posing as the helpful expert.. Brilliant!

Sallyann1234
11th Aug 2018, 17:41
Zoom-in to see the 'explosive' huts (separated to prevent collateral damage):-
High Post today. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/High+Post+Business+Park,+A345,+Salisbury+SP4+6AT/@51.1236109,-1.7939033,3414m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4873ef2a57d5d64d:0xec033474e31bdf5 7!8m2!3d51.1259434!4d-1.7889893)
To avoid any confusion, that link points to the business park. The actual Chemring site is about a km to the NW.

Sallyann1234
11th Aug 2018, 17:45
And, of course, we are missing the most obvious villain of the lot. It must be the one on here who knows more about the poisons used by the Russians, who knows exactly where they come from and how they are manufactured, who worked at Porton and knows the back streets of Salisbury from hours spent riding round the town on his bicycle planning the best route away from his crime. And then, best of all, he bluffs it out by posing as the helpful expert.. Brilliant!
Actually, he was outed long ago by KnC who saw through his cover straight away. :ok::E

VP959
11th Aug 2018, 18:13
Actually, he was outed long ago by KnC who saw through his cover straight away. :ok::E

Bugger, must have missed that, probably because I rarely ever get to see his posts.

Sadly, my life is nowhere near as exciting as some may think, although since retirement I do ride my bike a lot around the local area, trying to get fit and out and about, rather than just vegetate in retirement.

Just to be clear, I have no official inside knowledge of the current events in and around Salisbury, and anything I've posted here has been from public domain information or local knowledge from living in the area for the past 18 years.

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2018, 20:36
To avoid any confusion, that link points to the business park. The actual Chemring site is about a km to the NW.
Agreed, but the scattered huts seem to be relics from a former munitions facility - even the cultivated land has 'crop marks' from foundations.

Sallyann1234
11th Aug 2018, 20:53
Agreed, but the scattered huts seem to be relics from a former munitions facility - even the cultivated land has 'crop marks' from foundations.
You'd expect those from a former airfield. Even a grass strip will have had some buildings.

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2018, 21:00
You'd expect those from a former airfield. Even a grass strip will have had some buildings.
The 'huts' are placed individually in widely-spaced rows - reminiscent of munitions manufacture and storage facilities (so that one explosion didn't trigger others).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/High+Post+Business+Park,+A345,+Salisbury+SP4+6AT/@51.1254873,-1.8038532,851m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4873ef2a57d5d64d:0xec033474e31bdf5 7!8m2!3d51.1259434!4d-1.7889893

Krystal n chips
12th Aug 2018, 06:06
Bugger, must have missed that, probably because I rarely ever get to see his posts.

Sadly, my life is nowhere near as exciting as some may think, although since retirement I do ride my bike a lot around the local area, trying to get fit and out and about, rather than just vegetate in retirement.

Just to be clear, I have no official inside knowledge of the current events in and around Salisbury, and anything I've posted here has been from public domain information or local knowledge from living in the area for the past 18 years.

Well my posts are freely available albeit they do require the much vaunted proclamation of "he's on my Ignore list ! " to be rescinded......

As for the final line and disclaimer, alas, this does put the now infamous " I have received some interesting snippets of info. "..followed by a selection of various agents...into context.

Finally, the past tense would be more apt, although not entirely so.

KelvinD
12th Aug 2018, 06:57
Re the Chemring thing: no need for alarm. The government are preparing a press release explaining to us how they know "The Russians did it"! (Or a tubby New Yorker named Boris).

Sallyann1234
12th Aug 2018, 08:52
The 'huts' are placed individually in widely-spaced rows - reminiscent of munitions manufacture and storage facilities (so that one explosion didn't trigger others).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/High+Post+Business+Park,+A345,+Salisbury+SP4+6AT/@51.1254873,-1.8038532,851m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4873ef2a57d5d64d:0xec033474e31bdf5 7!8m2!3d51.1259434!4d-1.7889893
Ah, you mean the structures over to the west. I was thrown off by your location pointer. Yes they seem to answer to the function, but they are clearly not in use now as there is no security whatever. Perhaps the farmer has a use for them.

VP959
12th Aug 2018, 09:32
For the avoidance of doubt, this is the Chemring factory, with some added annotations:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/930x800/chemring_factory_8c66e97c90ca40d962071971b59227db62b8ea1d.jp g

Sallyann1234
12th Aug 2018, 13:59
That's all very interesting, VP. But you didn't label where the Novichok is stored. :=

KelvinD
12th Aug 2018, 14:58
But you didn't label where the Novichok is stored
I thought it was at Boots!

fitliker
12th Aug 2018, 22:22
The first attack was Nuclear , the second was Chemical , the third may be showing off the Biological capabilities or compromised batches lost after the collapse of the USSR .
Maybe then we will understand the message, even if it was not intended for us to receive.
Anyone want to guess what pathogen might be used ?
Something uniquely Soviet ? Phlange ?

Sallyann1234
13th Aug 2018, 10:12
The 'huts' are placed individually in widely-spaced rows - reminiscent of munitions manufacture and storage facilities (so that one explosion didn't trigger others).

You may wish to re-think that. Have a look at the Historical Data on Google Earth, which goes back to 2001 in that area.

Below are screen shots from 2017 and then 2005. In the earlier one there are crops growing, with no structures and no crop markings.

So what are the 'storage facilities'? If they were connected to the Chemring facility across the road one would expect strict security around the site. But according to the surface view on Google Streets, you can walk onto the site from almost anywhere around the perimeter. There are access roads with just flimsy farm style gates.

Could they be housing or shelters for farm animals? Perhaps someone living locally would like to take a bicycle ride around there. ;)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/816x750/2017_396075915a6be41e292d25b0bacc219eaaaa1a53.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/819x749/2005_27d7714ce46ee0ffa993f0c070b612ff89f45457.png

G-CPTN
13th Aug 2018, 10:21
The extremely dry summer has revealed the presence of underground 'foundations'.
The only other thought that I had for such 'isolated' buildings was pig-farmery - but it seems very regimented.

VP959
13th Aug 2018, 10:22
I can confirm that the land South of the lane down to Durnford is just open farmland, has been for years. There have been pigs on it from time to time - this is Wiltshire, there are bloody pigs everywhere!

There's a council bulk road salt storage depot on the opposite side of the road a bit closer to the crossroads, but that's about it.

treadigraph
13th Aug 2018, 12:09
Certainly looks like a pig farm to me - there are very similar structures in a field on the south side of the A303 just west of Stonehenge; and lots of porkers doing what they do... Sheer coincidence that we usually stop for a full English at the Bell a few miles further on.

G-CPTN
21st Aug 2018, 17:08
The British Foreign Secretary has, today, stated that the Russian Government employed banned military 'agents' (materials) in Salisbury.
I haven't found a link, but I heard a clip on radio which was unequivocal.

KelvinD
21st Aug 2018, 17:17
G-CPTN: I can testify to that. He was spouting off on Radio 4 circa 07:00. He wasn't able to point to any evidence though. I suspect he was indulging in a bit of boot licking.."Look how good our American friends are, unlike the EU".
It will be in here somewhere: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bfx56x

VP959
21st Aug 2018, 18:09
From what has been made public I can't see how our government are in any position to say that the Russian government were involved in this attack directly.

The only partially true bit seems to be the mention of "banned military agents", although the terminology is incorrect. Certainly A-234 is a controlled substance that is prohibited from use in a weapon, but technically it isn't "banned" by anyone, and anyway, any CWC signatory can produce up to 1 tonne of any chemical agent if it wishes and still remain within the terms of the CWC.

There's a separate issue here which is that there is some suspicion that, although Russia is a signatory to the CWC, there have been questions raised as to how well audited all their facilities have been by the OPCW. It may be that they are all fine, but there are lingering doubts (and not just about Russia either) over full compliance with the terms of the CWC.

flash8
21st Aug 2018, 23:29
From what has been made public I can't see how our government are in any position to say that the Russian government were involved in this attack directly.
Probably why nobody is shooting their mouths off willy nilly, although I did read in the Telegraph the Government is asking the EU to step up pressure on Russia, not that the EU gives a toss about the UK, as seems pretty apparent from Barnier, who views the current UK government it is safe to say with complete contempt (which about sums up the attitude of many of us).

Perhaps the Government hopes the story "will go away"... not sure that it will and whoever did this might well have a further agenda.

atakacs
22nd Aug 2018, 09:25
I am confused: I was under the impression that the perpetrators were "indentified" and the UK government was about to request arrest and extradition from Russia. What did I miss since?

VP959
22nd Aug 2018, 10:06
I am confused: I was under the impression that the perpetrators were "indentified" and the UK government was about to request arrest and extradition from Russia. What did I miss since?

I've not read or heard anything since the statement that at least some of the suspects had been identified. I've not even heard a confirmed report that they were positively identified as being Russian citizens. The reports have been couched in careful terms that suggests they MAY be Russian citizens, perhaps because there was passport ID (which could easily be fake), or perhaps because of the route they took when leaving the country (which equally does not prove nationality).

I'm sure the investigators know a great deal more than has been released to the media, and I'd assume that they would be very reluctant to release any more information to the media than was absolutely necessary in order to either quell concerns or help them gather further information, perhaps to help identify suspects.

atakacs
22nd Aug 2018, 10:13
I'm sure the investigators know a great deal more than has been released to the media, and I'd assume that they would be very reluctant to release any more information to the media than was absolutely necessary in order to either quell concerns or help them gather further information, perhaps to help identify suspects.

Unless, of course, there is a political advantage / need to spill the beans (at the potential displeasure of the LEA).

G-CPTN
22nd Aug 2018, 10:32
The point is . . . why did Hunt decide to repeat the claim (which doesn't seem to be being reported by the media) that the Russian government were responsible for the Salisbury attack?

Fitter2
22nd Aug 2018, 10:45
The point is . . . why did Hunt decide to repeat the claim (which doesn't seem to be being reported by the media) that the Russian government were responsible for the Salisbury attack?
Possibility A: He knows something you don't (and as Foreign Secretary with access to Cabinet Briefing Room A, that's also plausible).

or B: Since it has been established that the Nerve Agent originated in the Russian Government territory, either they allowed it to be used, or did not prevent it's use - both being their responsibility.

atakacs
22nd Aug 2018, 13:28
Possibility A: He knows something you don't (and as Foreign Secretary with access to Cabinet Briefing Room A, that's also plausible).

or B: Since it has been established that the Nerve Agent originated in the Russian Government territory, either they allowed it to be used, or did not prevent it's use - both being their responsibility.

Possibly C: No special reason except it fits the current narrative...

G-CPTN
22nd Aug 2018, 13:37
Possibly C: No special reason except it fits the current narrative...
I thought that the current thinking was that the initial claim by Boris was not supported by hard evidence and, therefore, the issue was to be left to disappear into oblivion.

I still haven't seen any claim in the online media of what I heard on the radio.

racedo
22nd Aug 2018, 15:02
I thought that the current thinking was that the initial claim by Boris was not supported by hard evidence and, therefore, the issue was to be left to disappear into oblivion.

I still haven't seen any claim in the online media of what I heard on the radio.

Media keep repeating it often enough then it is claimed as fact.

Fitter2
22nd Aug 2018, 16:20
Somebody keeps repeating things.

https://tinyurl.com/yboxqykp may be relevant.

topradio
22nd Aug 2018, 16:46
Somebody keeps repeating things.

https://tinyurl.com/yboxqykp may be relevant.

Crikey Fitter, that sounds so familiar, straight out of the manual.

A_Van
22nd Aug 2018, 16:48
Possibly C: No special reason except it fits the current narrative...

Possible D (already mentioned above): the next round of US "sanctions" towards Russia come in force today, so a UK official expressed his satisfaction. Now the chain of fake news in closed with a positive feedback: the US announces sanctions because they trust the UK (that the Russian government is behind that) and now UK say "look, the US has taken the step, thus they know for sure and all the rest should follow".

Though no facts yet.....

racedo
22nd Aug 2018, 17:46
Somebody keeps repeating things.

https://tinyurl.com/yboxqykp may be relevant.

No evidence, nothing attributable and no way of verification of anything that is written................ it is out a playbook all right but not one written in Moscow.

grateful_pax
22nd Aug 2018, 18:19
Possible D (already mentioned above): the next round of US "sanctions" towards Russia come in force today, so a UK official expressed his satisfaction. Now the chain of fake news in closed with a positive feedback: the US announces sanctions because they trust the UK (that the Russian government is behind that) and now UK say "look, the US has taken the step, thus they know for sure and all the rest should follow".

Though no facts yet.....

did i am the only one who sees this funny parallel?

the infamous downing of mh-17:
1) initial report on TV about ukrainian transport plane downed by the "rebels" (still available on youtube, I personally saw it 17th of july 2014 on tv)
2) hundreds of conspiracy theories
3) "though no facts yet"
all this time JIT is doing their work

the Skripal poisoning:
1) initial tv report by Kirill Kleymionov with a warning to "traitors" (again, available on youtube in rus lang)
2) hundreds of conspiracy theories
3) "though no facts yet"
all this time Scotland Yard and probably some other agencies are doing their work

both investigations will be completed as soon as yet another russian revolution puts yet another czar in the kremlin
do you remember what Yeltsin did back in 1993 with KAL 007 black boxes and KGB docs re 1983 shoot-down?
the history repeats

Fitter2
22nd Aug 2018, 18:21
Wow, you don't have to work so hard to prove my point :ok:

It's like moths to a candle flame.

racedo
22nd Aug 2018, 20:22
Wow, you don't have to work so hard to prove my point :ok:

It's like moths to a candle flame.

Suggest you google Colin Wallace and Fred Holyroyd and see what they were doing in the 1970's

Some of us have seen it all before............... it isn't new.

Andy_S
23rd Aug 2018, 07:58
Diversion tactics from Darkest Surrey......

Nige321
26th Aug 2018, 17:03
Charlie Rowley back in hospital... (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/novichok-survivor-charlie-rowley-back-in-hospital-and-battling-meningitis-a3920406.html)

flash8
26th Aug 2018, 23:34
Charlie Rowley back in hospital... (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/novichok-survivor-charlie-rowley-back-in-hospital-and-battling-meningitis-a3920406.html)
I fully wish Charlie a full and complete recovery, although excuse me if I feel for his safety .

It genuinely puzzled me why after giving his story (in a hospital bed, to the authorities of course) Charlie didn't unfortunately "succumb" to the poisoning, tragically of course for all concerned, naturally dead men can't speak, but that's by-the-by.

No news on the perpetrators who have been positively identified and "awaiting" arrest warrants of course, move along, nothing to see here.

racedo
26th Aug 2018, 23:56
I fully wish Charlie a full and complete recovery, although excuse me if I feel for his safety .

It genuinely puzzled me why after giving his story (in a hospital bed, to the authorities of course) Charlie didn't unfortunately "succumb" to the poisoning, tragically of course for all concerned, naturally dead men can't speak, but that's by-the-by.

No news on the perpetrators who have been positively identified and "awaiting" arrest warrants of course, move along, nothing to see here.

Govt and Media keep changing the story.

Strange it all props up just when Russia highlight John Bolton's statement about Chemical Weapions last week in Syria almost like he greenlighting it,

Sallyann1234
27th Aug 2018, 08:48
It genuinely puzzled me why after giving his story (in a hospital bed, to the authorities of course) Charlie didn't unfortunately "succumb" to the poisoning, tragically of course for all concerned, naturally dead men can't speak, but that's by-the-by.
I can understand your puzzlement. It must be hard trying to fit a conspiracy into the simple case of an innocent man stumbling across the discarded bottle of Russian poison.

According to your own analysis, the fact that he is still alive suggests that after telling his story to the press he has no tale left to tell. Very puzzling indeed.
​​​​​​

VP959
27th Aug 2018, 08:58
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that someone who's been poisoned by this stuff will have long-term health effects from it and will probably be more susceptible to infection than someone in good health who had not been exposed to it.

It's probably worth having a think about whether or not he may have already been in a high risk group for this type of infection, too. He had a hobby of scavenging things, remember, so there's no telling what else he may have picked up over the years and have in his collection. If he was in the habit of going "treasure hunting" along the dumping ground either side of that path across from Queen Elizabeth Gardens to Harnham, then there's no telling what he may have touched or collected and perhaps decided to add to his collection over the years.

The path's open again now and I may take a ride along it next week, weather permitting, to see how well it's been cleared. I suspect that the two, normally dry, wide ditches either side of the raised path are now clean and tidy, but they have pretty much always been full of junk in the past.

flash8
27th Aug 2018, 15:19
Whatever others may quite rightly (or wrongly) think my thoughts are that the story that Charlie has given has been tightly controlled, vague, and unconvincing. It doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to determine he is best off the scene for all concerned, or at least the ones controlling the narrative.

Every single component of this case stinks to high heaven, but to me, the real tragedy, is the complete acquiescence of the mainstream media. No wonder others seek information elsewhere.

flash8
28th Aug 2018, 19:33
Some extremely interesting information.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/skripals-when-the-bbc-hide-the-truth/

The mystery does thicken!

atakacs
28th Aug 2018, 19:34
Things have gone very quite on this one.
I muss say that the recent revelation of Mark Urban of BBC Newsnight being linked to Skripal puts yet another weird twist to this very strange case. This story keeps giving.

flash8
28th Aug 2018, 19:37
To me, it's not so much they met (could well be coincidental) but that he never mentioned it after the story broke, a huge story, where you'd expect him to dive straight in. The revelation seems to have been leaked to a "Kirsty Eccles" (whose FOI requests seem to cover a huge range of topics, some quite complex, interesting to know who exactly she is).

Original request:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/mark_urbansergei_skripal_meeting

Any thoughts VP?

racedo
28th Aug 2018, 19:46
Some extremely interesting information.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/skripals-when-the-bbc-hide-the-truth/

The mystery does thicken!

I have said before that clearly some journalists have 2 masters........... is Mark Urban one of those.

VP959
28th Aug 2018, 20:17
Murray is a tin foil hat muppet with a personal axe to grind, that ignores any facts that don't fit his personal agenda/massive chip on his shoulder.

It's fairly common knowledge that Sergei Skripal has been giving interviews, lectures, etc, on his Cold War experiences. He gave one here in Salisbury and few years ago, and has travelled around Europe doing the same from time to time. I've always assumed that he's been doing this to supplement whatever pension he's been getting from the government.

flash8
28th Aug 2018, 20:35
Murray is a tin foil hat muppet with a personal axe to grind, that ignores any facts that don't fit his personal agenda/massive chip on his shoulder.
Can't disagree to much with that, but he does often make some very valid points, and he doesn't usually diverge into the realm of fantasy, just pursues his own causes. I kind of respect him actually, although yes he certainly has his own agenda.

It's fairly common knowledge that Sergei Skripal has been giving interviews, lectures, etc, on his Cold War experiences. He gave one here in Salisbury and few years ago, and has travelled around Europe doing the same from time to time. I've always assumed that he's been doing this to supplement whatever pension he's been getting from the government.
You would have thought that if Skripal had been interviewed by Urban, on whatever subject, Urban would have made quite a fuss about it post the poisoning event, after all, it's a kind of journalistic pre-scoop, and yet, he remained unusually silent and nobody would have been all the wiser until this "Eccles" came along. No, it is a fair point I think Murray/Eccles raise.

The problem with this case to me is new things pop up out of thin air, since day one, and none of them make me feel any more confident we are being fed anything but a rather dodgy narrative. Nothing, absolutely nothing in this case as presented makes any sense.

I am still waiting for those suspects that have been identified including their flights etc to be released, but something tells me perhaps that is just another piece of fiction.

The bit about crypto interception really took the biscuit.

atakacs
28th Aug 2018, 21:38
You would have thought that if Skripal had been interviewed by Urban, on whatever subject, Urban would have made quite a fuss about it post the poisoning event, after all, it's a kind of journalistic pre-scoop, and yet, he remained unusually silent and nobody would have been all the wiser until this "Eccles" came along. No, it is a fair point I think Murray/Eccles raise.

I agree that it is now high time for Urban to give more info about what was the purpose of said meeting - and why it was not at all disclosed when the news broke. It might be innocuous (if anything it that crazy story can) but it can not be ignored.

As for C. Murray you are entitled to your opinions but I respect him for standing up against outsourced torture by and for the UK government. Very few others did.

KelvinD
28th Aug 2018, 22:18
Murray is a tin foil hat muppet
Careful VP! That could be taken as indictment of the recruitment process of the civil service!
To be fair to Mr Murray, he gave up a lot in order to voice and stick to his principles.

racedo
28th Aug 2018, 23:01
I agree that it is now high time for Urban to give more info about what was the purpose of said meeting - and why it was not at all disclosed when the news broke. It might be innocuous (if anything it that crazy story can) but it can not be ignored.

As for C. Murray you are entitled to your opinions but I respect him for standing up against outsourced torture by and for the UK government. Very few others did.

Journalist avoids scoop and runs away from it............................ one wonders Why ?

KelvinD
29th Aug 2018, 06:03
It would seem Mr. Urban has a new book coming out in October with the title "The Skripal Files: The Life and Near Death of a Russian Spy".
Well, I never!
I noticed in Mr Murray's piece, he referred to Urban's time in the Tank Regiment. According to Wikipedia, he signed up for a 9 month short term commission. 9 months. for God's sake! Or put another way, 270 days. Hardly long enough to wear your boots in.
And that, apparently, makes him a great authority on the British Army!
Anyway, back to the original point; he has a book coming out and is no doubt protecting his future funds.

Pontius Navigator
29th Aug 2018, 07:33
According to Wikipedia, he signed up for a 9 month short term commission. 9 months. for God's sake! Or put another way, 270 days. Hardly long enough to wear your boots in. A gap year commission, but he did convert to 4 years in the Reserves. Probably training and then straight to the Reserves - tank fodder. Command a tank with a competent NCO to look after him.

KelvinD
29th Aug 2018, 08:08
Pontius: You are no doubt correct. When I was in, a tank commander was indeed often an NCO and not necessarily of the RTR. A few of my mates did stints as tank/armoured vehicle commanders and they were all Royal Signals.

VP959
29th Aug 2018, 08:20
As for C. Murray you are entitled to your opinions but I respect him for standing up against outsourced torture by and for the UK government. Very few others did.

I don't disagree with where he started from - he did stand up against wrong, without question, before he was sacked/resigned. However, since then he's seized on anything, no matter how improbable, in order to lend support to his personal views, and not only has he been highly selective about what he's chosen to publicise, but he also seems to have the gift of being able to make rumour seem as if it's proven fact. The bottom line is that he puts as much, or more, spin on the stuff he peddles in order to earn a crust than either the main stream media or any government, something that seriously undermines his credibility as a reliable source.

VP959
29th Aug 2018, 08:24
It would seem Mr. Urban has a new book coming out in October with the title "The Skripal Files: The Life and Near Death of a Russian Spy".
Well, I never!
I noticed in Mr Murray's piece, he referred to Urban's time in the Tank Regiment. According to Wikipedia, he signed up for a 9 month short term commission. 9 months. for God's sake! Or put another way, 270 days. Hardly long enough to wear your boots in.
And that, apparently, makes him a great authority on the British Army!
Anyway, back to the original point; he has a book coming out and is no doubt protecting his future funds.

Precisely, and Murray is acting as his publicist, either wittingly or unwittingly.

I would expect we will see a number of books, documentaries, perhaps even films, made about Sergei Skripal and the Salisbury attack. How much any of them will represent what really happened will remain open to question - very few I should imagine, as I doubt we'll ever get to find out the truth, either because it's not known or because, for as long as there is the remotest chance of prosecuting the suspects the evidence will be kept confidential.

atakacs
30th Aug 2018, 20:32
I'd say that our "friend" M. Murry makes a good case in his most recent post (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/imagine-if-the-bbc-were-honest/)- at least the first half of it.

Why on earth is the BBC deflecting / sandbagging if the meeting was innocuous ? Now if was not (and I have a hard time buying the second part of the post and the links with the Miller, Steele, Orbis dossier, although at this stage nothing would really surprise me anymore in this utterly weird affair) what on earth is going on ?

racedo
30th Aug 2018, 22:46
I'd say that our "friend" M. Murry makes a good case in his most recent post (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/08/imagine-if-the-bbc-were-honest/)- at least the first half of it.

Why on earth is the BBC deflecting / sandbagging if the meeting was innocuous ? Now if was not (and I have a hard time buying the second part of the post and the links with the Miller, Steele, Orbis dossier, although at this stage nothing would really surprise me anymore in this utterly weird affair) what on earth is going on ?

When this starts looking at the Steele dossier it starts to become even murkier, perhaps someone was trying to clean up loose ends on the Steele dossier just in case Sergei wished to speak to someone.

Some of the answers to the questions are strange..

Mr Urban is following a path where he is quite happy to accuse others of being economical with the Actualite.

Maybe it is just me but ex British Intelligence (are they ever ex) doing dossiers for parties in a US Election appears like interference in an Election.

Bearing in mind that both directors of Orbis set themselves out as "Political Consultants" it gets murkier and murkier especially as Steele was was case officer for Litvinenko.

flash8
31st Aug 2018, 18:11
Urban is friends with Luke Harding, somebody I have unfortunately run across in my weekly tour of Moscow bars, Piramida to be precise, some years back when they allowed him in (Russia, that is). The guy Harding is so linked to the security services one wonders how he manages to keep it in the closet, an open secret perhaps. Somebody should draw a diagram linking this cabal...

Once, in the old Moscow Boarhouse, a very sleazy expat club, was speaking to a gentleman who I admitted to I was a DTRA (US Government) contractor, not that I kept it a secret, but soon enough he whipped out his card and handed it to me, turned out he was the UK Defense Attache, and the card extremely bloody garish with a huge Union jack on it.... he asked about lunch sometime... I made my excuses.... had good judgement even in those days... the unsubtle sight of that large Union jack still haunts me today ))

BehindBlueEyes
3rd Sep 2018, 15:15
Visiting family in Salisbury today. Noticeable increase in police presence on the streets all around the city and the complete area at the back of Tesco’s in The Maltings, near where the original incident took place, has been taped off and guarded.

atakacs
4th Sep 2018, 21:50
Well the results are apparently in and it would seem that Charlie Rowley was poisoned with the exact same 30 odd years old batch nerve agent.
How this happened remains a complete mystery to me...
Update: I stand corrected. The two batches could not be positively matched. Which is odd. They managed to indentify the first batch, presumably out of a minute sample. Yet, presented with a full bootle, there seems to be no conclusive finding.

KelvinD
4th Sep 2018, 21:51
So the OPCW experts have today reported that Dawn Sturgess, who died in July, was poisoned by the nerve agent Novichok. They have also said "it was not possible to conclude whether the nerve agent used in the two incidents was from the same batch." Well that has probably buggered some assertions made previously by various people!
And Jeremy Hunt has become the latest cabinet minister to be in possession of "facts" unknown to other mere mortals. Today he said "The recklessness of the Russian state in bringing a nerve agent in to the UK, and total disregard for the safety of the public, is appalling and irresponsible". So there we are then, he must be party to some information and evidence regarding the involvement of the Russian government. Or is he just talking out of his rectatorial orifice? I suspect the latter.

flash8
4th Sep 2018, 23:17
Seems like the Laurel and Hardy teams spinning the narrative have tied themselves in knots, what you'd expect when any old lie will do. As the present government is in tatters any articulation from them should be taken with a grain of salt, they could fall anytime.

No, interesting times ahead, and will be following all developments most keenly after analysing them through my innate bullshit detector, because this whopper has a distinct whiff about it, and Chanel no 5 it isn't.

A_Van
5th Sep 2018, 04:32
Why analyze b-shit interpretations from politicians when the report itself is publicly available?

Here it is: https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1671-2018_e_.pdf

It is rather vague, does not contain words like "Novichok" or A-230+, nor anything is said about the origin. IMHO the only new data there are about the purity level (97-98%).

Fitter2
5th Sep 2018, 08:25
Hi Moscow trolls

I note that the final paragraph in the summary says
13. The name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full classified report of the Secretariat, available to all States Parties.
Is it possible that the UK Government does have access to the classified report, and therefore is in a position to make statements? The precise batch can only be identified by the presence of trace levels of contaminatns. Once grossly contaminated (2% + is gross in this context) then the source may be clear, but the batch (day, date, chemists names, storage records etc) can't be. Sorry if that spoils your maskirovka. :=

https://tinyurl.com/ybds5uza

VP959
5th Sep 2018, 08:36
Why analyze b-shit interpretations from politicians when the report itself is publicly available?

Here it is: https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1671-2018_e_.pdf

It is rather vague, does not contain words like "Novichok" or A-230+, nor anything is said about the origin. IMHO the only new data there are about the purity level (97-98%).

I read this news report last night, and went and dug out the OPCW report you've linked to, as I don't trust the media to tell the truth, or anything close to it. As you say, the public version of that report says nothing other than that it was the same agent as used against the Skripals, that it was of high purity and that it contained 2-3% of impurities. It doesn't name those impurities, or give their relative ratios, something that I suspect is classified, as that will almost certainly be a key identifier for the investigation team to use, as it is the critical part of the signature of the agent.

It's not the OPCWs job to determine the source, they just provide independently verified forensic evidence. The investigation team must use that evidence to determine where the agent came from and whether it is from the same batch as was used against the Skripals, if the evidence is sufficiently robust and if the investigation team have the ability to be able to define the source.

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 08:41
Update: I stand corrected. The two batches could not be positively matched. Which is odd. They managed to indentify the first batch, presumably out of a minute sample. Yet, presented with a full bootle, there seems to be no conclusive finding.
Which is exactly what would be expected if the bottle was planted separately to confuse investigations.

VP959
5th Sep 2018, 09:17
Which is exactly what would be expected if the bottle was planted separately to confuse investigations.

Lack of evidence is not itself evidence.

This is not an easy task, to do, and we have no knowledge of what is in the classified report. Key will be the signature of the impurities, as that would link the samples, but there are a host of variables that may make drawing hard conclusions from those challenging. For example, the only relatively "clean" samples of the agent from the attack on the Skripals will have come from residue found from the door handle, his car, places where they inadvertently transferred it, etc. That was months ago, and each one of those samples would have picked up contaminants from the surfaces they were on. Fast forward to the bottle, which had been lying somewhere in the open somewhere, for an unknown period of time and exposed to unknown amounts of sunlight, rain etc. That sample will have been affected to some degree by it's environment, just as the other samples taken months earlier were. If contaminants in all the samples were an exact match then I'd be highly suspicious.

All we know at the moment is that the publicly released information says there is not yet a positive match, bearing in mind that this is a murder investigation and the burden of proof on that forensic evidence is "beyond reasonable doubt". If there is any doubt at all as to whether due account has been made for external contamination and environmental breakdown, bearing in mind that any attacker(s) would almost certainly have tried to make sure the external surfaces of any container used were decontaminated in some way (which itself would probably introduce contamination) than all we are going to hear is that there is not yet a positive match. Whether that remains the case forever, or whether further forensic work may confirm that they were from different batches, or from the same batch, we just don't know.

My instinctive feeling is that we'll never know, and that the perpetrators won't ever be caught and find themselves tried for these crimes, so all the speculation is probably moot. We don't have a good track record of arresting and trying people suspected of this type of crime, do we?

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 10:12
UK police name two Russian nationals saying there is "sufficient evidence" to charge them over Salisbury attack

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45421445

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 10:24
PM will be making a statement this afternoon. Should be of some interest.

KelvinD
5th Sep 2018, 12:22
The police say these two names are "probably aliases". That translates as "we don't know for certain who these two individuals are".
In Parliament, the government tells us that these two were officers of the GRU. How can they say that while the police are saying they know the actual identities?

ORAC
5th Sep 2018, 12:25
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/727725/Salisbury-Novichok-attack-poisoning-suspects-Russian-Aeroflot-Gatwick-HeathrowCAUGHT ON CCTV: How Russian Novichok suspects got into Britain and sneaked across country FROM Moscow to Gatwick, then Waterloo to Salisbury – the chilling journey the Salisbury “killers” took has been laid out in shock detail.

BehindBlueEyes
5th Sep 2018, 12:27
Details released of perfume bottle containing Novichok found by Charlie Rowley | Salisbury Journal (http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16689826.details-released-of-perfume-bottle-containing-novichok-found-by-charlie-rowley/)

pax britanica
5th Sep 2018, 12:36
The way Uk courts are these two would probably have been better off staying in Uk.
I doubt their Russian 'masters' are too pleased with their inept performance and that they are already in a place aloooong way east of Moscow where it will soon be getting very cold

A_Van
5th Sep 2018, 12:41
Looks like the "investigators" took the simplest way in "finding" the suspects. Just checked who arrived to London from Russia shortly before that tragic event and departed shortly after. Then select (from a long list, I suppose) those who travelled to Salisbury on that very day and blame them.
Looks especially strange that the government immediately called those guys as "GRU officers" while the police and border control authorities say they don't know who they are/were. And I am just curious why GRU and not "SVR"???
"Adding the fact" that traces of the toxic substance were found in the hotel room was also an easy job to do because such "traces" could be later left by those who started blaming Russia immediately after the poisoning in March.

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 13:04
Yep, hear they come. After calling for the names, they get them. And now it's not enough.

There's an easy way to see all the evidence. Just put them on trial where the alleged crimes were committed. Will that happen? Thought not.

DaveReidUK
5th Sep 2018, 13:06
Just checked who arrived to London from Russia shortly before that tragic event and departed shortly after. Then select (from a long list, I suppose) those who travelled to Salisbury on that very day and blame them.

So, at any given time, there are dozens of Russian tourists who have flown over for a couple of days to sample the delights of Salisbury ?

Gosh.

VP959
5th Sep 2018, 13:10
Details released of perfume bottle containing Novichok found by Charlie Rowley Salisbury Journal (http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16689826.details-released-of-perfume-bottle-containing-novichok-found-by-charlie-rowley/)

Pretty much as was speculated earlier in this thread - a modified bottle and a separate applicator. Seems logical. as such a device would probably be a relatively low risk (to the attacker(s) way to administer an oil-like agent to a door handle.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 13:11
Yep, hear they come. After calling for the names, they get them. And now it's not enough.

There's an easy way to see all the evidence. Just put them on trial where the alleged crimes were committed. Will that happen? Thought not.

It has taken 6 months.............................. strange that when ALL the information in terms of comings and goings was at hand within days.

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 13:23
So, at any given time, there are dozens of Russian tourists who have flown over for a couple of days to sample the delights of Salisbury ?

Gosh.
Didn't you realise how popular Salisbury is with Russian tourists? Most planes arriving at Gatwick have pairs of Russian men who come only for a quick visit to Salisbury and then :mad: off home on the next flight. :}

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 13:29
It has taken 6 months.............................. strange that when ALL the information in terms of comings and goings was at hand within days.
You wanted the police to prematurely release vital information at the very start, to prejudice further work on a lengthy and crucial investigation?

You betcha! :ok:

ORAC
5th Sep 2018, 13:41
On their two visits to Salisbury on consecutive days. They obviously couldn't fit in all the sights on the one and half hour first visit. What a shame they couldn't stay longer on their second visit in the area of the Skripal home......- obviously in a hurry to catch their flight....

Sometimes the UK having so much CCTV is a major advantage.....

"On Saturday, March 3 they left the hotel and took the underground to Waterloo station, arriving at 11.45am, before catching a train to Salisbury, arriving at 2.25pm. Petrov and Boshirov were seen returning to London later on Saturday, leaving Salisbury at 4.10pm and arriving in Bow at 8.05pm.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/620x494/cctv_of_alexander_petrov_and_ruslan_boshirov_1442012_4c258d3 195c20c1afd261f8a016948299608b37c.jpg
Image of both suspects at Salisbury train station at 16:11hrs on 03 March 2018

On Sunday, March 4, they made the same journey from the hotel, again using the underground from Bow to Waterloo station at 8.05am, before continuing their journey by train to Salisbury. It was on this day they allegedly carried out their attack – contaminating the front door of Skripal’s house in the poison, with CCTV showing them in the area of the attack. They later left Salisbury and returned to Waterloo Station, arriving at 4.45pm before boarding the London Underground at approximately 6.30pm to London Heathrow Airport."

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/620x522/cctv_of_alexander_petrov_and_ruslan_boshirov_1442013_b207aea 06a85c04a43b6c06f8a5318d16918fc01.jpg
DAY OF ATTACK: Image of both suspects at Salisbury train station at 11:48hrs on 04 March 2018

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/620x466/cctv_of_alexander_petrov_and_ruslan_boshirov_1442016_e3b34f0 9a715eebde645af6ba1c6ef17ccd3c43f.jpg
LAUGHING: Image of both suspects on Fisherton Road, Salisbury at 13:05hrs on 04 March 2018

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/620x488/cctv_of_alexander_petrov_and_ruslan_boshirov_1442023_39d407e 428658bd30576b09ae14d0d55bde015e7.jpg
BACK TO RUSSIA: Image of suspects at Heathrow airport security at 19:28hrs on 04 March 2018​​​​​​​

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 14:18
You wanted the police to prematurely release vital information at the very start, to prejudice further work on a lengthy and crucial investigation?

You betcha! :ok:

What prematurely info ?

Strange they can release details of a murder suspect within days or someone else they wish to interview.

KelvinD
5th Sep 2018, 14:37
An item that seems to have been overlooked here is that of the hotel this pair stayed in. In a BBC news report, it was stated that traces of the agent had been found in their hotel but the substance had deteriorated over time to the point it was useless.
How then did the stuff in the perfume bottle fail to deteriorate over (presumably) a much linger time?
I thought I had read here that this Novichok had a long life and was quite persistent?

arketip
5th Sep 2018, 14:43
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/727725/Salisbury-Novichok-attack-poisoning-suspects-Russian-Aeroflot-Gatwick-HeathrowCAUGHT ON CCTV: How Russian Novichok suspects got into Britain and sneaked across countryFROM Moscow to Gatwick, then Waterloo to Salisbury – the chilling journey the Salisbury “killers” took has been laid out in shock detail.



- Sneaked across the country?

They just took the train and underground.

- the chilling journey
- terrifying CCTV footage showing their every move.
- their terrifying journey

Are London transport really that bad?
;)

Recc
5th Sep 2018, 14:43
Looks especially strange that the government immediately called those guys as "GRU officers" while the police and border control authorities say they don't know who they are/were. And I am just curious why GRU and not "SVR"???


Use your imagination. A foreign intelligence officer (or agent) would be given decent cover prior to any sort of job (particularly one overseas). There are any number of ways in which UK intelligence could know the individuals (and link them to cctv images) without knowing their home address in Moscow!

ORAC
5th Sep 2018, 14:51
How then did the stuff in the perfume bottle fail to deteriorate over (presumably) a much linger time? I thought I had read here that this Novichok had a long life and was quite persistent?

Making a wild guess, the large concentrated amount was sealed in a... bottle.

BehindBlueEyes
5th Sep 2018, 15:06
As we speculated on here, it appears the Novichok was transported in a perfume bottle. My hunch is the bottle that was found by Charlie Rowley was a ‘back up’ supply in case of need - that’s possibly why he put it together as I can’t imagine the conspirators would bother to dismantle the original dispenser - too risky. As it wasn’t actually required, it was dumped in a charity bin at the back entrance of the Cancer Research shop in Catherine Street.

When I’m in Salisbury, I have frequently used the Brown Street car park which is behind Catherine Street ( there is a pedestrian walkway which connects the two) The back entrance is in the corner of the car park and always seems to have a large pile of refuse bags awaiting collection. There is also a pub/restaurant called The Cloisters which no doubt also contributes and places its rubbish on the pile. It’s quite possible that due to the large amount accumulated there, it is never actually cleared so something placed there could remain there for months.

if that’s the case, and the perpetrators did dispose of the second bottle so callously, imagine if the container had been inadvertently broken by a bin man? We would be talking about possibly dozens of innocent city residents. Then again, I don’t suppose safety was high on these men’s agenda.

ETOPS
5th Sep 2018, 15:08
Hey Russian trolls!

Here's how this plays out. UK Police and security services have identified the two attackers and named them publicly. At some stage in the future their real names will become known and the charge sheet amended accordingly. Russian state media will huff and puff and you guys will attempt some obvious "whataboutery" but, behind the scenes, the important players will realise that this is the evidence they were trying to suppress.

The two attackers, whoever they are, will never face justice in Salisbury but Russia's reputation has been damaged - regardless of your posts here.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 15:21
Hey Russian trolls!

So anybody who puts a different viewpoint or questions anything is now subject to abuse on here it appears.

clareprop
5th Sep 2018, 15:51
So anybody who puts a different viewpoint or questions anything is now subject to abuse on here it appears.

Oh come on! It's not 'abuse' and your post is hardly a 'viewpoint'. For whatever reason, you (and some others) are trying to split hairs on what is pretty much cast iron evidence of a serious crime carried out by agents of the Russian government. In addition, twenty-five European countries, the USA. Australia and Canada all agree with that conclusion. As far as the time it has taken to publicly release the evidence, it's still a darn sight quicker than an AAIB investigation.

rogerg
5th Sep 2018, 16:03
Well said Clare.

Fitter2
5th Sep 2018, 16:17
As far as the time it has taken to publicly release the evidence, it's still a darn sight quicker than an AAIB investigation.
And decades faster than a Russian admission of culpability when there's a slam dunk case. KAL007/MH17/Litvinenko/Gregori Markov etc, etc.

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 16:35
So anybody who puts a different viewpoint or questions anything is now subject to abuse on here it appears.
Don't mind the abuse Racedo... water off a ducks back ))

As the MFA has said "The names published by the media, like the photographs, don’t mean anything to us.” and I am inclined to believe them. This has been a set up from the beginning and a lot of it still makes little or no sense.

As for Mr Skripal, a traitor to his country and likely sent many agents to their deaths, I have absolutely no sympathy, the fact that he'll have to watch his back for life is what he justly deserves.

Odd that one of them was wearing a baseball cap... Russians rarely do such things.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 16:37
Oh come on! It's not 'abuse' and your post is hardly a 'viewpoint'. For whatever reason, you (and some others) are trying to split hairs on what is pretty much cast iron evidence of a serious crime carried out by agents of the Russian government. In addition, twenty-five European countries, the USA. Australia and Canada all agree with that conclusion. As far as the time it has taken to publicly release the evidence, it's still a darn sight quicker than an AAIB investigation.

Nope

There is no cast Iron evidence of a crime by Russian Government.

In fact the only evidence is details of 2 gents who arrived in the UK and left the UK and who visited Salisbury.
Even UK courts wouldn't convict on that as that is zero proof.

We heard this in Litviencko and guess what the person alledged to have done it was working with Russian Oligarchis living in UK and zero proof provided aside from Govt trust us we know. Amazing how the same people seem to be involved in this.

Getting allies to agree and using that as a means to justify something is laughable giving recent history.................. How many countrys agreed under pressure that Iraq was a supposed clear and present danger with WMDs in 2002. ?
15 1/2 years later everybody knows the truth and the lies therein.

If someone previously worked for Russian security services it is not proof anything that they have later done was expressly done with Government support.

If that is the basis then US can quite rightly ask why UK Govt using Christopher Steele was seeking to interfere in US Elections.

grateful_pax
5th Sep 2018, 16:45
The two attackers, whoever they are, will never face justice in Salisbury but Russia's reputation has been damaged - regardless of your posts here.
So your point is that russia had some "reputation" before the Salisbury poisoning? and now it's "damaged"? pffft
I'd rather say that UK's reputation is damaged. Don't you forget that russia was the only government in the world that welcomed the brexit thing?
If Argentina would re-try their operation "Rosario" nowadays, there could be quite a different outcome.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 16:50
And decades faster than a Russian admission of culpability when there's a slam dunk case. KAL007/MH17/Litvinenko/Gregori Markov etc, etc.

KAL007 was shot down by USSR Air Force having strayed well into USSR territory and having been warned via radio about it. There is and always has been an accepted fact. Its why US and USSR agreed different procedures regarding aircraft that could go off course in that part of the world and placement of beacons. It is also an accpted fact that US Govt opened access to GPS as a result.

MH17 there has never been proof beyond reasonable doubt of who did it............... specualation isn't proof.

Litvinenko was killed by Russian mafia whom he had known. Traces of Polonium were found in one of the Russian Oligarchs offices who UK has given citizenship to and MI6 have got info from. Person claimed to have committed the crime is a member of parliment of a right wing group which is anti West.

Gregori Markov was killed by Bulgarian Secret Service, again an accepted fact.

DaveReidUK
5th Sep 2018, 17:11
Odd that one of them was wearing a baseball cap... Russians rarely do such things.

And the other looks like he's wearing a woolly hat.

Clearly as neither was wearing a fur hat, accusing them of being Russian is fake news

VP959
5th Sep 2018, 17:15
An item that seems to have been overlooked here is that of the hotel this pair stayed in. In a BBC news report, it was stated that traces of the agent had been found in their hotel but the substance had deteriorated over time to the point it was useless.
How then did the stuff in the perfume bottle fail to deteriorate over (presumably) a much linger time?
I thought I had read here that this Novichok had a long life and was quite persistent?

Yes, it is persistent, very persistent. However, it can be degraded by common household cleaning agents - the normal way to initially decontaminate surfaces would be to use an acidic agent, followed by a neutralising alkali, then a detergent wash. Many household cleaning agents are either acids or alkaline. For example all limescale removing cleansers will be acidic, often using citric or phosphoric acid, either of which would degrade this agent. Additionally, the majority of carpet and fabric cleaners, as well as washing detergents, are alkaline and so would again have degraded the agent further.

I would expect that hotels in London routinely use limescale type cleaning agents, because of the hard water. I would also expect that they clean and launder with alkaline detergents and cleaning agents. I would have been surprised if harmful levels of agent had been found in the hotel, given the apparent precautions the suspected attackers used to prevent contamination of themselves (which they seem to have done - the hotel is the only location outside the Salisbury area where contamination has been reported). It seems possible that they may have unpacked, perhaps even prepared, the bottle used they used to deliver the agent at the hotel, perhaps leaving a minute trace behind that has been detected much later, after their room had been cleaned, perhaps several times.

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 17:34
And the other looks like he's wearing a woolly hat.

Clearly as neither was wearing a fur hat, accusing them of being Russian is fake news

And there was no snow on their boots. MI5 forgot to add that to their photoshopped pictures. Obviously faked!

Sallyann1234
5th Sep 2018, 17:48
Litvinenko was killed by Russian mafia whom he had known. Traces of Polonium were found in one of the Russian Oligarchs offices who UK has given citizenship to and MI6 have got info from. Person claimed to have committed the crime is a member of parliment of a right wing group which is anti West.
You really need to check your whataboutery generator.

The polonium was traced all along the route that the two assassins took, from their arrival until their departure. It was found in both their hotel rooms and on the plane they arrived on. It's entirely irrelevant that one of them subsequently became an MP.
Litvinenko knew who had killed him - he named Putin.

But of course you know all this. It doesn't fit your script.

Pontius Navigator
5th Sep 2018, 18:12
And the other looks like he's wearing a woolly hat.

Clearly as neither was wearing a fur hat, accusing them of being Russian is fake news
Whilst one appeared to have a Russian cap badge :)

Seriously though, different jackets, different shoes, possibly even different jeans. Interesting though that moustache appears to be hanging back from clean shave at the barrier in the last shot.

Rather more changes of clothes than the suitcase would suggest.

sitigeltfel
5th Sep 2018, 18:27
The Russians say they know nothing of the two suspects, what's the chances they have already been eliminated?

The saga won't have looked good on their CV.
First they fail to kill their intended target.
Then they dispose of the poison in a slapdash manner.
It is then found by an innocent party who is killed by it.
They also leave a trail that even Inspector Clouseau would find hard to miss.

James Bond, they ain't!

TEEEJ
5th Sep 2018, 18:37
KAL007 was shot down by USSR Air Force having strayed well into USSR territory and having been warned via radio about it. There is and always has been an accepted fact.

What radio warnings would these be then? What frequency were these radio warning broadcast on? There was no radio warnings issued by the pilot responsible for shooting down the KAL007. The Sukhoi 15 Flagon pilot admitted that no such contact was made or warnings issued. The pilot was initially ordered to lie about it.

Su-15 Flagon pilot Osipovich revealed in an Izvestia 1991 interview.

We shot down the plane legally... Later we began to lie about small details: the plane was supposedly flying without running lights or strobe light, that tracer bullets were fired, or that I had radio contact with them on the emergency frequency of 121.5 megahertz.


The Russian released the previously top secret memos in 1992. This confirmed that not a single radio warning was broadcast.

The third memo acknowledges that analysis of the recorder tapes showed no evidence of the Soviet interceptor attempting to contact KAL 007 via radio nor any indication that the KAL 007 had been given warning shots.

However in case the flight recorders shall become available to the western countries their data may be used for: Confirmation of no attempt by the intercepting aircraft to establish a radio contact with the intruder plane on 121.5 MHz and no tracers warning shots in the last section of the flight

From

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

KAL007 - Transcripts detailing radio transmission.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007_transcripts

A_Van
5th Sep 2018, 18:56
What is announced by UK makes those newsmakers look like idiots. Russian citizens require to submit tons of data about themselves in order to get a UK visa. This includes finger prints, bank account data to say nothing about regular personal data and CV. They screen you and your family completely.
So,
1) If the British say they have no idea about who are those people, the question immediately arises about who they are allowed into the country if they can be fooled so easily? The Russians immediately requested (today) to provide finger prints of those suspects so that they could find and identify those guys (if they exist and are in the Russian database), but UK declined. Aren't they interested to hear what are they?
2) If the British were so smart to determine these "agents" and let them in to see what they were about to do, etc., why they were not caught on the spot? They guys seemed even not to hide their faces but managed to escape so easily.

CCTV images could be fabricated by a school boy nowadays. Or put the "right" date on the image that was shot months ago. All this looks like a poor staged show for UK public and allies.

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 19:11
Police said the two men were travelling on authentic Russian passports
You mean like the "authentic" passports certain agencies of certain other countries use regularly for wet work?

Farcical. They have no way of knowing these passports were not forgeries.

Recc
5th Sep 2018, 19:18
What is announced by UK makes those newsmakers look like idiots. Russian citizens require to submit tons of data about themselves in order to get a UK visa. This includes finger prints, bank account data to say nothing about regular personal data and CV. They screen you and your family completely.

Please don't insult our intelligence. Constructing a plausible cover using the apparatus of a nation state's intelligence services is trivial; it is a large part of their routine work and it would be no challenge to construct a cover that would be sufficient to obtain a visa. I would expect the cover to have been far more detailed than that.



2) If the British were so smart to determine these "agents" and let them in to see what they were about to do, etc., why they were not caught on the spot? They guys seemed even not to hide their faces but managed to escape so easily.
.

Nobody has suggested that they were identified as such at UK immigration at the time of the attack. The police and intelligence agencies have been investigating for 6 months!

G-CPTN
5th Sep 2018, 19:32
I thought they said that they were seeking a man and a woman?


Which one was the woman?

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 19:41
Constructing a plausible cover using the apparatus of a nation state's intelligence services is trivial; it is a large part of their routine work and it would be no challenge to construct a cover that would be sufficient to obtain a visa. I would expect the cover to have been far more detailed than that.

The UK authorities have no way of knowing if the passports were authentic and additionally if you were a security service of a major power why the hell would you travel on a passport issued by your own nation? You would quite obviously operate on a cover passport of another nationality. This isn't bloody rocket science!

That the CCTV scans of UK Airport entry were of such low resolution is also interesting. Again it seems they are using 1960's 405-line CCTV albeit with a touch of colour, images could well be one of hundreds of lookalikes.

Why aren't we being shown the photos they submitted for a UK visa? You know.. the ones with a decent resolution and no facial coverings unlike what we have seen that could be anybody's Uncle?

Could it be perhaps because they don't exist....

All we are shown are murky sub 1 megapixel images of covered faces that are ambiguous at best.

419
5th Sep 2018, 19:45
I thought they said that they were seeking a man and a woman?


Which one was the woman?

One of them might identify as a woman!

Recc
5th Sep 2018, 19:46
The UK authorities have no way of knowing if the passports were authentic and additionally if you were a security service of a major power why the bloody hell would you travel on a passport issued by your own nation? You would quite obviously operate on a cover passport of another nationality.


No you wouldn't. The basic rule of constructing effective cover stories is always to change as little as you possibly can. Aside from the fact that they are able to issue a genuine Russian passport, but only a forgery for another state, if they travelled under a foreign passport but were obviously Russian then that would raise suspicions if they were questioned by anyone familiar with the language. In any case, it is very clear from this (and similar) cases that the Russians have very little interest in the operations remaining covert after they had been concluded. You don't use rare nerve agents, or highly specific isotopes if you want to keep it low key and plausibly deniable. The people they want to know will now know, and the half-wits will eagerly lap up the conspiracy theories.

clareprop
5th Sep 2018, 19:56
Sorry to burst the apologists and deniers bubbles but the fact is, the Russian government don't care if these two are identified and neither do the individuals involved - as is so obviously apparent from the cctv and stills. In the Kremlin, they're laughing and saying, 'So what?'
Thirty or so diplomats kicked out and more sanctions on a country overflowing with mineral riches and hundreds more agents already in place. Big deal...it just doesn't matter to them. The real win is that Putin looks tough and keeps peoples minds off the fact he is a dictator stuffing his and his cronies bank accounts with billions of dollars.

topradio
5th Sep 2018, 20:36
The UK authorities have no way of knowing if the passports were authentic and additionally if you were a security service of a major power why the hell would you travel on a passport issued by your own nation? You would quite obviously operate on a cover passport of another nationality. This isn't bloody rocket science!

That the CCTV scans of UK Airport entry were of such low resolution is also interesting. Again it seems they are using 1960's 405-line CCTV albeit with a touch of colour, images could well be one of hundreds of lookalikes.

Why aren't we being shown the photos they submitted for a UK visa? You know.. the ones with a decent resolution and no facial coverings unlike what we have seen that could be anybody's Uncle?

Could it be perhaps because they don't exist....

All we are shown are murky sub 1 megapixel images of covered faces that are ambiguous at best.

What, like the pictures here
Salisbury poisoning: Two Russians wanted for Novichok attack are named | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6133853/Wanted-Novichok-poisoning-Prosecutors-two-Russians-hunted.html)

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 20:47
What, like the pictures here
Salisbury poisoning: Two Russians wanted for Novichok attack are named Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6133853/Wanted-Novichok-poisoning-Prosecutors-two-Russians-hunted.html)

Seems Craig Murray and others have already spotted significant issues with the Photos.

And Craig's conclusion.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-impossible-photo/

2) Scotland Yard has issued doctored CCTV images/timeline.

I am going with the Met issuing doctored images.

Raises more questions than answers.

Again, the "dodgy" photos.....

longer ron
5th Sep 2018, 20:51
Seems Craig Murray and others have already spotted significant issues with the Photos.

Well there's a surprise LOL - as soon as you mention the Murray Mint you lose credibility in your posts Flash - I hope you and the other 'trolls' are being paid lots of cash for all this posting on here ;)

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 20:53
Well there's a surprise LOL - as soon as you mention the Murray Mint you lose credibility in your posts Flash - I hope you and the other 'trolls' are being paid lots of cash for all this posting on here ;)

LR, forget Craig Murray and look at the evidence :)

It does raise a pretty disturbing possibility.

Simply put, that the photos were doctored.

atakacs
5th Sep 2018, 20:56
I muss say that both (low quality) pictures having the exact same time stamp is fairly remarkable. Of course they have most likely used two different "lanes" but for them to be crossing before the camera at the exact same time is... interesting. Any if nothing else I would have expected a mention and explanation in a side note. Did anyone actually review there pics before posting the press release ?

But in any case we are not much more advanced on motive. Why now ? And why using this very peculiar method ?

We have discussed it ad nauseam earlier so no need to revisit the matter - just that the latest "revelations" don't give us any more clue.

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 21:05
I muss say that both (low quality) pictures having the exact same time stamp is fairly remarkable. Of course they have most likely used two different "lanes" but for them to be crossing before the camera at the exact same time is... interesting.
Actually even more worrying is in exactly the same place in the jetty.

No, blatantly doctored, perhaps innocently but very likely not.

Edited: Some are now saying one of the photo's backgrounds were "flipped" for the second image, and that evidence of tampering is quite blatant.

longer ron
5th Sep 2018, 21:18
LR, forget Craig Murray and look at the evidence :)
Simply put, that the photos were doctored.

Right OK - you have obviously conducted a very thorough photo analysis :)
As many of us on here have repeatedly posted - this has always been an operation conceived 'somewhere in russia' ,it is just not a British 'Style' of attack,we do not gain anything from the attack.
As we have repeatedly posted - the message was sent out and clearly recieved by Skripal et al - they have very sensibly gone into hiding.
Just because you guys are desperate to discredit the British Guvmint means you lose your ability for logical thought,Flash - you post quite sensibly sometimes and then you go back to Brit bashing and your hatred for Boris and co rears its ugly head.I am not a Boris fan myself but a little logical thinking applied to looking for the likely culprits will only lead to the east mon ami.

flash8
5th Sep 2018, 21:28
it is just not a British 'Style' of attack,we do not gain anything from the attack.
You misunderstand me LR, I don't think it was instigated by the buffoons in MI5 or wherever... anyway I'm inclined to be charitable and believe many of them are actually honest folk with morals and scruples.

As for Brit Bashing, well, I must be open and say I do not view my home country that favourably, what is left of it that is. You'd find it hard to describe me as a patriot, 'tis true. However I do try and balance my opinion. As for Boris, well, best left unsaid.

The Photo issues though indisputably need some clarification.

longer ron
5th Sep 2018, 21:36
The Photo issues though indisputably need some clarification.

I always think that when I see any Photo posted on the internet Flash,I am always happy to wait for quite a while though before I start slinging theories around.
I do not think much of this country either these days BTW.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:06
You really need to check your whataboutery generator.

The polonium was traced all along the route that the two assassins took, from their arrival until their departure. It was found in both their hotel rooms and on the plane they arrived on. It's entirely irrelevant that one of them subsequently became an MP.
Litvinenko knew who had killed him - he named Putin.

But of course you know all this. It doesn't fit your script.

Er no..................... They didn't bring it with them.

They were stopped and questioned by police before being allowed in and police officer was informed to allow them in.

There are ways to find if people are bringing into material into the UK at airports.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:14
No you wouldn't. The basic rule of constructing effective cover stories is always to change as little as you possibly can. Aside from the fact that they are able to issue a genuine Russian passport, but only a forgery for another state, if they travelled under a foreign passport but were obviously Russian then that would raise suspicions if they were questioned by anyone familiar with the language. In any case, it is very clear from this (and similar) cases that the Russians have very little interest in the operations remaining covert after they had been concluded. You don't use rare nerve agents, or highly specific isotopes if you want to keep it low key and plausibly deniable. The people they want to know will now know, and the half-wits will eagerly lap up the conspiracy theories.

If you want to come into the UK and leave easily then you use a EU passport because you will not be questioned, can use the gates where no need to talk to any border agency person.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-online-application-service-for-uk-visit-visas-launches-in-russia
UK requirements for a UK visa for Russians and that includes applying for a Visa................. therefore UK already has all the details.

TEEEJ
5th Sep 2018, 23:17
LR, forget Craig Murray and look at the evidence :)

It does raise a pretty disturbing possibility.

Simply put, that the photos were doctored.

They are two different cameras. You can even see that from the different angles of the cameras. It is just sad that you fall for Murray and other die-hard conspiracy non-sense.

CCTV1

CCTV1 = image of ?Petrov? at Gatwick airport at 15:00hrs on 02... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/images/cctv1-equals-image-of-petrov-at-gatwick-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407995)

CCTV2

CCTV2 = image of ?Boshirov? at Gatwick airport at 15:00hrs on 02... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/images/cctv2-equals-image-of-boshirov-at-gatwick-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407997)

From

Counter-terrorism police release images of two suspects in... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/news/counter-terrorism-police-release-images-of-two-suspects-in-connection-with-salisbury-attack-320534)

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:23
Well there's a surprise LOL - as soon as you mention the Murray Mint you lose credibility in your posts Flash - I hope you and the other 'trolls' are being paid lots of cash for all this posting on here ;)

Murrays point is correct because unless they were taken aside and interviewed separately there is no corridors like that in Gatwick between exiting the plane and exiting past customs.

The corridors are just about big enough for 1 person to walk done and barely for a wheel chair.................... both are time stamped at same time.

currawong
5th Sep 2018, 23:28
The UK authorities have no way of knowing if the passports were authentic and additionally if you were a security service of a major power why the hell would you travel on a passport issued by your own nation? You would quite obviously operate on a cover passport of another nationality. This isn't bloody rocket science!

That the CCTV scans of UK Airport entry were of such low resolution is also interesting. Again it seems they are using 1960's 405-line CCTV albeit with a touch of colour, images could well be one of hundreds of lookalikes.

Why aren't we being shown the photos they submitted for a UK visa? You know.. the ones with a decent resolution and no facial coverings unlike what we have seen that could be anybody's Uncle?

Could it be perhaps because they don't exist.

All we are shown are murky sub 1 megapixel images of covered faces that are ambiguous at best.

Uk may have trouble spotting a bogus Russian passport.

Can Russia spot a bogus Russian passport? After all, they left Russia and re-entered with them...

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:32
They are two different cameras. You can even see that from the different angles of the cameras. It is just sad that you fall for Murray and other die-hard conspiracy non-sense.

CCTV1

CCTV1 = image of ?Petrov? at Gatwick airport at 15:00hrs on 02... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/images/cctv1-equals-image-of-petrov-at-gatwick-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407995)

CCTV2

CCTV2 = image of ?Boshirov? at Gatwick airport at 15:00hrs on 02... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/images/cctv2-equals-image-of-boshirov-at-gatwick-airport-at-15-00hrs-on-02-march-2018-1407997)

From

Counter-terrorism police release images of two suspects in... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/news/counter-terrorism-police-release-images-of-two-suspects-in-connection-with-salisbury-attack-320534)

Incorrect it is exactly the same corridor down to the reflections thrown by the vents on left and right hand side.

Time stamp exactly the same and neither was in each others picture.

2unlimited
5th Sep 2018, 23:33
I guess Russian government assassins must be on low budget now, having to use UK train services, with thousands of CCTV all around. I am guessing the training standards by Russian GRU's must have fallen to the Low Cost Ops model.

First the Skripals did not die, second they seem to very obviously want to point the finger against the obvious "guilty part" , it's like a bad movie thriller, where you see the obvious guilty person already given away in the first scene.

So they have not been able to ID the 2, as they are convinced they travelled on fake passports, yet they have enough evidence to confirm they must be GRU members.

This has WMD from Iraq all written over it.

TEEEJ
5th Sep 2018, 23:34
Murrays point is correct because unless they were taken aside and interviewed separately there is no corridors like that in Gatwick between exiting the plane and exiting past customs.

The corridors are just about big enough for 1 person to walk done and barely for a wheel chair.................... both are time stamped at same time.

So how do you explain the "CCTV1" & "CCTV2" and also the different angles on the cameras? Also one CCTV is slightly different as it has another date label? As others have pointed out to Murray there is more than one corridor. Nothing remarkable about two people entering two separate corridors and walking at the same pace hence the time stamps on the cameras.

TEEEJ
5th Sep 2018, 23:38
Incorrect it is exactly the same corridor down to the reflections thrown by the vents on left and right hand side.

Time stamp exactly the same and neither was in each others picture.

So again why is it labelled "CCTV1" and "CCTV2" and why does one camera have an extra date label? Also examine the angles of the cameras. It is clearly two different corridors. Simply two people entering the corridors and walking down them at the same pace.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:38
Uk may have trouble spotting a bogus Russian passport.

Can Russia spot a bogus Russian passport? After all, they left Russia and re-entered with them...

UK has trouble spotting a False UK passport............

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:42
I muss say that both (low quality) pictures having the exact same time stamp is fairly remarkable. Of course they have most likely used two different "lanes" but for them to be crossing before the camera at the exact same time is... interesting. Any if nothing else I would have expected a mention and explanation in a side note. Did anyone actually review there pics before posting the press release ?

But in any case we are not much more advanced on motive. Why now ? And why using this very peculiar method ?

We have discussed it ad nauseam earlier so no need to revisit the matter - just that the latest "revelations" don't give us any more clue.

What lanes ?

Exiting aircraft at Gatwick down a corridor and then into wide open aread headed to Immigration control.
Gangway from aircraft are wide enough for wheelchairs and prams and for 2 people walking side by side.
This isn't one.

Emigation area is wide open for all.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:48
So how do you explain the "CCTV1" & "CCTV2" and also the different angles on the cameras? Also one CCTV is slightly different as it has another date label? As others have pointed out to Murray there is more than one corridor. Nothing remarkable about two people entering two separate corridors and walking at the same pace hence the time stamps on the cameras.

Er have you ever travelled through Gatwick ?

There is the gangway and then the open area where you mix with everybody else. Corridor is not the gangway and definitely not the open area as that is big.
So exactly where is it as flown into both terminals and have never walked down a narrow corridor like this.

TEEEJ
5th Sep 2018, 23:50
Murrays point is correct because unless they were taken aside and interviewed separately there is no corridors like that in Gatwick between exiting the plane and exiting past customs.

The corridors are just about big enough for 1 person to walk done and barely for a wheel chair.................... both are time stamped at same time.

There is more than one corridor. That is why the CCTV is labelled CCTV1 & 2. Think about it? They both enter a different corridor at the same point and walk at the same pace. It isn't rocket science. Get out of the conspiracy rabbit hole guys! Or should that be the conspiracy corridor!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1781x932/gatwick_1e6cd97f4a1da4abee92e072a3b1915cc6697389.jpg

https://goo.gl/maps/vDj43FRrrRM2

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:52
So again why is it labelled "CCTV1" and "CCTV2" and why does one camera have an extra date label? Also examine the angles of the cameras. It is clearly two different corridors. Simply two people entering the corridors and walking down them at the same pace.

In which case why is there not a single person behind them..................... never happens on an aircraft I am on as people want to get out as quickly as possible.
There is one gangway to aircraft used not 2 and this isn't a gangway as not wide enough, also if following along behind you would see them both is the same frame.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:54
There is more than one corridor. That is why the CCTV is labelled CCTV1 & 2. Think about it? They both enter a different corridor at the same point and walk at the same pace. It isn't rocket science. Get out of the conspiracy rabbit hole guys! Or should that be the conspiracy corridor!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1781x932/gatwick_1e6cd97f4a1da4abee92e072a3b1915cc6697389.jpg

https://goo.gl/maps/vDj43FRrrRM2

Not it dear boy, look at the vents.
There are none on these
Also why are shadows on the vents exactly the same in different corridors with cameras angled differently.

currawong
5th Sep 2018, 23:56
UK has trouble spotting a False UK passport............

Does not answer the question.

racedo
5th Sep 2018, 23:57
Does not answer the question.

if they unable to recognise a false Uk one then how can they recognise another countrys one ?

Strange that the UK Visa and photos at Border Security are excluded.

currawong
5th Sep 2018, 23:59
Read the question again.

Don't be distracted by the air vents at Gatwick.

TEEEJ
6th Sep 2018, 00:06
In which case why is there not a single person behind them..................... never happens on an aircraft I am on as people want to get out as quickly as possible.
There is one gangway to aircraft used not 2 and this isn't a gangway as not wide enough, also if following along behind you would see them both is the same frame.

Anton P wrote on the idiotic Murray page.

it is quite common to have spells, when nobody is coming through. Then you get a couple of people, then a whole wave of passenger and then a few more. I picked my wife and daughter up from Gatwick a few times

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-impossible-photo/

TEEEJ
6th Sep 2018, 00:11
Not it dear boy, look at the vents.
There are none on these
Also why are shadows on the vents exactly the same in different corridors with cameras angled differently.

LOL "The vents! The vents!" It's a conspiracy!!!!!! The utter madness of the die-hard conspiracy theorist! It is simply different corridors but sadly your mind is deep in the conspiracy corridor and you can't see it. Just sad!

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 00:23
Note below is just speculation on my part!

These corridors are surveillance equipped and are made by Kaba, the lenses are fish-eye high resolution (or multiple rectilinear), and the corridors are likely are equipped with RF surveillance (to scoop IMEI, BT ID and various device signatures), guessing on the latter but they'd be fools not to.

They may well have exited through separate corridors linking the sterile side to the main complex (as can be seen clearly on the Google Images) and likely at the same time (quite possible given the short length), after all they had passed all other checks, however the staggering of the corridors slightly throws this off-balance but not unrealistically so.

What is interesting however is the fact that one image from the fisheye is at an angle, given the tolerances of the system I'd guess this is unlikely in practice, also the 16:9 ratio makes no sense, this was edited down from a much larger surface area, but the information stamps seem to contradict that possibility - and it is curious that the stamps do not show channel data (like SAWD04, SAWD05), this is a curious omission.

Also the resolution is way. way out of what the real system would produce, granted it could have been downsampled but that doesn't explain the artifacts in the images.

It could be (given the PAUSE) these are digital photos of an LCD image that were shown on a monitoring unit, and perhaps that is what we see. These still images were downsampled, and given the EXIF examination seem to be edited at the beginning of May 2018 in Microsoft Photo Editor (itself opening up questions).


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/595x955/scan_020faf2920e92824e58dd577113f20b78794b84a.png

Between the lighting is likely the imaging surveillance.


Other sensors:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/354x792/scan2_69a41c84d466024cf8fcca71bf0901e67d231998.png

#2 Sensors Unlikely imaging (or if so then height would not physically be possible to catch released images, indeed, image was caught further down the channel as shown in #1).

In Summary these images could well have been produced by a DSLR and post-processed, nothing contradicts that.

What I'd like to know are the specs of the surveillance imaging components, to see if there is any correlation with the released images.

currawong
6th Sep 2018, 00:31
Uk may have trouble spotting a bogus Russian passport.

Can Russia spot a bogus Russian passport? After all, they left Russia and re-entered with them...

Nobody seems to want to answer my question....

A simple yes or no would suffice.

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 00:41
Can Russia spot a bogus Russian passport? After all, they left Russia and re-entered with them...
They may well have held multiple passports in the same name and disposed of the fake Russian passports on exit, they'd then enter the RF using another passport with fake UK stamps/visa, likely a passport of somewhere that requires no RF entry visa (a CIS country for example that have many native Russian speakers, or even Latvia or Lithuania), they probably departed on these same passports.

I'm assuming that the UK does not share detailed passport information with the RF so I could be wrong.

currawong
6th Sep 2018, 01:10
The Russians have repeatedly offered their assistance in the matter.

Now is their big chance.

If faces, names and dates are now known as the UK has claimed, the rest should be relatively simple.

Post # 1809 20 July....

KelvinD
6th Sep 2018, 06:35
The Google image posted by Teej shows 4 "corridors" available but only a single one is in use. With there being only a single corridor in use, there are multiple passengers in the line heading into the corridor. The Russians must have been lucky, arriving on a flight with only 2 passengers and 2 corridors in use!
I don't have a view on who did what etc on either side (UK & Russia). I do have some views though on what we have been fed throughout this whole saga.

DaveReidUK
6th Sep 2018, 07:05
Not it dear boy, look at the vents.
There are none on these
Also why are shadows on the vents exactly the same in different corridors with cameras angled differently.

For once, you are actually correct. :D

The photo you refer to is the exit from the South Terminal customs area. Aeroflot flights use (used?) the North Terminal at Gatwick. The customs area exit there is similar, except that the channels aren't staggered:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/797x446/lgw_north_terminal_customs_area_exit_b5a5f56c74ab5ccfb427202 7e5e4631f5da5d9e3.jpg

Note the cameras - it's not clear whether CCTV1/CCTV2 are numbered from the left or right, but it's clearly where the Met's photos were taken.

Edit: Assuming that the cameras are numbered CCTV1 to CCTV4, the channels must have been the two leftmost ones as the red/white "Security Restricted Area" notice isn't visible in the rightmost channel (presumably there is one, on the other side of the Channel 3/4 divider).

Pontius Navigator
6th Sep 2018, 07:19
The multiple corridor image posted by TEEEJ shows a filed floor. The CCTV images do not show tiles. There are different shadows further back along the corridor. Is it possible other people have been brushed out? Alternatively do they operate a one in - one out system?

There is a very plausible explanation for the simultaneous time stamps. The GR8 are military; military march/walk in lock step at between 90 and 120 paces per minute. Entering two parallel corridors at the same time we would expect them to emerge at the same time.

To the second? Even at 90 paces to the minute that is 3.75 feet per second.

Effluent Man
6th Sep 2018, 07:22
This whole episode becomes more bizarre with every turn. I am more than happy to believe any story that is accompanied by incontrovertible evidence but this one certainly doesn't get any clearer. Two men from an Aeroflot flight with false names are now assumed to be Putin's men. If we do in fact know their true identities, and they can be proved to be GRU employees, then the case becomes lot stronger. At present I do believe that evidence exists to show that they may be the perpetrators of the attack. Who they really are and who, if anyone, they are in the employ of is more problematic.

The time stamps on the CCTV pics is very odd. I cannot believe that security services wouldn't spot that anomaly, OTOH it is clearly the sane channel they are walking in. Even if it were not, what would be the odds of them being at the same point at the same second in different ones? Then again, if I was setting up the evidence I would alter the time stamp by a couple of seconds just to avoid giving us pro Putin trolls some evidence.

DaveReidUK
6th Sep 2018, 07:35
OTOH it is clearly the sane channel they are walking in.

So the Met deviously Photoshoppped one or other of the two images to cant the camera angle slightly in order to make it look like they were taken by two different cameras (out of the four) ?

I admire your determination. Have you ever hear of Occam's Razor ?

Pontius Navigator
6th Sep 2018, 07:35
The time stamps on the CCTV pics is very odd. I cannot believe that security services wouldn't spot that anomaly, OTOH it is clearly the sane channel they are walking in. Even if it were not, what would be the odds of them being at the same point at the same second in different ones? Then again, if I was setting up the evidence I would alter the time stamp by a couple of seconds just to avoid giving us pro Putin trolls some evidence
Think of Oscar where you enter through surgery turnstiles - the underground for instance - a couple emerge together.

if you did change the time stamps and that was detected the trolls would really have evidence.

DaveReidUK
6th Sep 2018, 07:56
if you did change the time stamps and that was detected the trolls would really have evidence.

Quite so. This is descending into farce.

"They must have walked through the same channel because if they did, that would mean the timestamps have been faked"

is the kind of ridiculous circular argument that even a bright ten-year-old could see through. I'll see if I can find one. :O

Effluent Man
6th Sep 2018, 08:06
But I'm not trying to find proof that this is faked, I am approaching from the other direction and trying to find evidence that would persuade me, were I a juror in a court of law to A. Find these men guilty and B. Find that they were employees of the Russian state. Whilst A is getting fairly close to being proven B is still far from it.

Note we are not talking here of balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt. I still feel we have some way to go on that and that it may ultimately prove impossible. That doesn't of course mean that Putin didn't organise it, but I think we are in the area of "Not Proven" if that verdict existed in England.

VP959
6th Sep 2018, 08:12
This is descending into farce.

As mentioned a few times before, it's extremely unlikely that the investigators are going to release evidential material in its entirety to the public domain, and probable that they would edit and reduce the definition of the images before they released them to the media, particularly if they contained some key evidence that they did not want to reveal before any trial. If the images weren't edited in some way around the periphery I'd be surprised, and things like the time stamp on any original images may well be one of the items that they would not wish to make public, if it is key to their whole package of evidence.

I find it hilarious that so much effort is going in to try and disprove, or cast doubt, on this being an attack carried out by one or more Russians. We been here before, and looked at who might have a reason to try and kill Sergei and Yulia Skripal, and the clear and obvious prime suspects pretty much have to be the only people with a strong motive - former colleagues of his that consider him to be a traitor to their country.

That doesn't mean it has to have been a state-sponsored attack at all, in fact there a reasonably strong case to be made that the Russian state would be crazy to pull off a stunt like this. That does not mean that it wasn't a rogue operation, undertaken for deeply personal reasons, though.

Whatever the case, it won't change the outcome, and my guess is that the press release yesterday was really the UK investigation team's end game. They know there isn't a chance in hell of bringing Russian suspects back to the UK for interview, possible charge and maybe a trial, so they release what they've got, edited to remove what they see as key detail, as a PR exercise, in order to show they've got something to account for the 11,000 hours of CCTV they've looked through and the 14,000 witness statements they've taken (those figures were given on a news report yesterday, no idea if they are accurate).

Sallyann1234
6th Sep 2018, 08:14
There doesn't seem any point in correcting the rubbish that the RT trolls post. Whatever evidence is produced, they will always come up with specious arguments against it.

If they are so sure of these men's innocence, they should ask their masters to allow them to be stood in court. Then the full evidence, which will not be revealed until then, can be properly tested. It's not going to happen of course.

Our one satisfaction is that whatever this crew say here will have no effect whatever on public opinion.

Fitter2
6th Sep 2018, 10:06
The Bart Simpson defence:

1. I didn't do it
2. Nobody saw me do it
3. You can't prove anything
4. It never happened.

Sound familiar?

atakacs
6th Sep 2018, 10:49
That doesn't mean it has to have been a state-sponsored attack at all, in fact there a reasonably strong case to be made that the Russian state would be crazy to pull off a stunt like this. That does not mean that it wasn't a rogue operation, undertaken for deeply personal reasons, though.

Well I'd say that anyone following the official story has now to decide on the following:
Either
1. Russian secret services have become unbelievably inept at their job – they made about every possible basic mistake they could and eventually missed their target. Not to mention endangering many innocents.
or
2. Borishov and Petrov are not GRU/SRV

I don't see any middle ground here

currawong
6th Sep 2018, 11:04
The matter is very easily resolved.

Russia could clear all this up in short order.

They have chosen, at this point, not to do so.

That is the elephant in the room, not the "orientation of the air vents at Gatwick".

Mike6567
6th Sep 2018, 11:06
I would have thought it extremely risky to contaminate the door handle late Sunday morning while the Skripals were in the house.
OK at night or when they were out but if they were in there was a good possibility they could have disturbed the GRU operatives.
Have I missed something?

Bee Rexit
6th Sep 2018, 11:21
I would have thought it extremely risky to contaminate the door handle late Sunday morning while the Skripals were in the house.
OK at night or when they were out but if they were in there was a good possibility they could have disturbed the GRU operatives.
Have I missed something?
Door handle just seems so odd to me - not mentioned yet is the fact that the cctv shows the men just yards from where all the action happened - Zizzi, the pub and the car park.

ELondonPax
6th Sep 2018, 11:22
"1. Russian secret services have become unbelievably inept at their job – they made about every possible basic mistake they could and eventually missed their target. Not to mention endangering many innocents."
Alternatively. The Russians could have killed without leaving a trace of they wanted to. But they quite deliberately did it in a way that leaves Russian secret service fingerprints (as it were) all over it to make a point - we can hit you on your home ground and you can't stop us,

G-CPTN
6th Sep 2018, 11:26
Whilst there is little doubt that the attack on the Skripals was attempted murder, the subsequent death of Ms Sturgess is difficult to define - if someone shoots them-self with an abandoned gun can the person who discarded the gun be held responsible?

So what would the two assumed Russians be charged with?

VP959
6th Sep 2018, 11:27
I would have thought it extremely risky to contaminate the door handle late Sunday morning while the Skripals were in the house.
OK at night or when they were out but if they were in there was a good possibility they could have disturbed the GRU operatives.
Have I missed something?

I doubt we are getting anything like the whole story, and strongly suspect that there is a load of detail that's not being released.

If one of these guys was going around delivering leaflets, say for a pizza place or something, then it would probably be pretty easy to just walk along, dropping leaflets through letterboxes on that road and quickly drip or squirt that agent on the handle of the Skripal's house as he was doing it. Someone noted earlier that it wasn't common to see Russians wearing a baseball cap. I can't read what it says on that cap, and the guy is only seen wearing it after the attack, on the walk back towards the station, so maybe that was part of an attempt to blend in as someone delivering leaflets.

VP959
6th Sep 2018, 11:31
Whilst there is little doubt that the attack on the Skripals was attempted murder, the subsequent death of Ms Sturgess is difficult to define - if someone shoots them-self with an abandoned gun can the person who discarded the gun be held responsible?

So what would the two assumed Russians be charged with?

I'm guessing that using a prohibited chemical weapon probably trumps murder in terms of the possible sentence. Someone who knows the law better may be able to clarify that, but my guess would be that it comes close to being an act of war, possibly covered by the ant-terrorist legislation.

Recc
6th Sep 2018, 11:32
Russian secret services have become unbelievably inept at their job – they made about every possible basic mistake they could and eventually missed their target. Not to mention endangering many innocents.


That description certainly fits with other examples of Russian military/ military intelligence operations over recent years. That said, 'inept' is probably the wrong word to use. 'Grossly reckless' and 'amoral' are probably better descriptions. The skills and qualities required to murder people are probably very different from those that we would associate with professional intelligence officers. This sort of result shouldn't be surprising to those in charge; possibly it isn't.

clareprop
6th Sep 2018, 11:51
The west rubbed Russia's nose in the s*** in 2014 and 15, now we are seeing the result. They don't care if the world knows they were responsible. It's much more fun for them to keep denying it though and laughing at the idiots who keep trying to prove they didn't. Even if tomorrow, the Russians said, 'Ok, yeah we did it', what are we going to do - declare war? There is nothing we can realistically do about it other than up our spook defenses to try to prevent further attacks.

BehindBlueEyes
6th Sep 2018, 13:10
Whilst there is little doubt that the attack on the Skripals was attempted murder, the subsequent death of Ms Sturgess is difficult to define - if someone shoots them-self with an abandoned gun can the person who discarded the gun be held responsible?

So what would the two assumed Russians be charged with?

Agree totally - and possibly splitting legal hairs here - but an unsuspecting member of the public is far more likely to pick up a discarded bottle of perfume than a discarded and potentially dangerous gun. I believe that does make the perpetrators culpable of attempted murder. There was deliberate attempt to deceive and convince any one who came across it - airline security, police or innocent bystander - that it was harmless.

Theres no mistaking what a gun’s purpose is for.

2unlimited
6th Sep 2018, 13:44
This is not Russian spies, this is becoming a farce, and after WMD in Iraq British Intelligence can’t be trusted.

i see this rather to be some disgruntled Oligarch who sent a couple of his Mafia henchmen to stir up the pot.

Maybe Uk frozen some billions , and what better way to show that UK can’t defend themselves.

I am not often buying in to conspiracies, but this is just to clumsy and obvious. Skripals survived, is the proof that this was not a Russian state operation.

Certain politicians in UK and USA seems hellbent on making Russia the big bad wolf.
Oliver Stones interview with Putin is a very interesting series.

i would not be surprised if these 2 guys will disappear to never be seen again.

rusty sparrow
6th Sep 2018, 14:08
Russia is laughing at the UK. And quite creatively here, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs Maria Zakharova dances off against PM May . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCVMArrIqoU

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 15:03
Russia is laughing at the UK.
So is the whole of Europe, and the World come to think of it, nothing to do with Skripal, just a government that many accept are the worst in living memory, and perhaps history.

My thoughts are if these individuals pop up somewhere (and the passport images are not just sophisticated fakes) then we can then evaluate based upon further evidence, but given the dodgy narrative so far I have doubts they even exist, love to know what Ukraine knows about this as well.

An analysis of the EXIF of the images show that they were manipulated early May 2018, to me this suggests that this pair were "suspects" then despite what we were told, the alternate of course is that this was staged. Anyway it is most curious they did not strip the EXIF before dissemination, and even the Photo editor they had used.

I can tell you here in Moscow most people believe not a word as you'd expect, and those I have managed to extract an opinion from (such as the Ice Lady and work colleagues) are not exactly sympathetic to a traitor and to paraphrase Hugo Drax in Moonraker "Take care of Mr Skripal, make sure some harms comes to him" are typical reactions.

Pontius Navigator
6th Sep 2018, 15:21
just a government that many accept are the worst in living memory, and perhaps history..
Just a thought, what is a good Government? Perhaps a non- interventionist Government is best Government.
​​​​

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 15:27
Just a thought, what is a good Government? Perhaps a non- interventionist Government is best Government.
​​​​
One that is respected by its people, and feared by its enemies :)

The UK has both in short supply.

Captivep
6th Sep 2018, 16:11
One that is respected by its people, and feared by its enemies :)

The UK has both in short supply.
The UK has people and enemies both in short supply? Who knew?

The english language can be quite a nuisance when you're attempting to make what seems like a very clever jibe, can't it?

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 16:29
Arguing semantics is a tad pedantic is it not?
And I don't consider it in the least bit clever believe me.

Effluent Man
6th Sep 2018, 16:43
Throughout this thread VP959 has been consistent as the best informed commentator. And he hasn't really taken sides, just sensible comment and analysis. My conclusion is much the same as his, yes they were Russian. Were they GRU? Possibly, but there are better options. I think that the personal grievance line is the most likely, someone with power and wealth with a grudge. I fail to see how a thrown away perfume bottle can constitute murder. The perpetrators would have to have expected it to happen and the finder is, at best, an unreliable witness.

On a legal point, how would you constitute a jury? Are there twelve people in Britain who have not been exposed to six months of saturation news coverage ?

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 16:51
My conclusion is much the same as his, yes they were Russian. Were they GRU? Possibly, but there are better options. I think that the personal grievance line is the most likely, someone with power and wealth with a grudge.
Well, their faces wouldn't look out of place on a Moscow street for sure, however, they also wouldn't look out of place in a Ukrainian SBU Office. I certainly wouldn't put it past them to conduct this operation, and they have every reason to discredit the RF. My bet is this is a good place to look and (I would say this of course but this is a genuine belief) really is a distinct possibility.

Pontius Navigator
6th Sep 2018, 16:57
On a legal point, how would you constitute a jury? Are there twelve people in Britain who have not been exposed to six months of saturation news coverage ?

I wouldn't be sure of that. There have been occasional drip feeds in the media but generally low key. Lots in the Tory graph today but can't speak for the others. We should not be amazed at the ignorance of the great British public.

Flash2001
6th Sep 2018, 17:13
If you're going to smuggle something past officialdom in a perfume spray, wouldn't you have it carried by a woman?

After an excellent landing etc...

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 17:28
The alleged perpetrators window shopping soon after attempted murder....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8ALEtcCvY

I know Russians love shopping but well, these two take the biscuit in that regard. They don't seem the least bit concerned. Guy Ritchie/Quentin Tarantino needs to shoot a movie of these two!

Sallyann1234
6th Sep 2018, 17:31
If you're going to smuggle something past officialdom in a perfume spray, wouldn't you have it carried by a woman?

Have you never bought perfume for a lady? (shame on you if you haven't) :{

And did they actually bring it with them? It could have been sent in a diplomatic bag and delivered to their hotel.

grateful_pax
6th Sep 2018, 17:59
The west rubbed Russia's nose in the s*** in 2014 and 15, now we are seeing the result. They don't care if the world knows they were responsible. It's much more fun for them to keep denying it though and laughing at the idiots who keep trying to prove they didn't. Even if tomorrow, the Russians said, 'Ok, yeah we did it', what are we going to do - declare war? There is nothing we can realistically do about it other than up our spook defenses to try to prevent further attacks.
oil embargo

atakacs
6th Sep 2018, 19:27
Ok I'm probably fairly incompetent but which flight arriving on March 2, 2018 around 4pm did they take?!

flash8
6th Sep 2018, 19:30
Ok I'm probably fairly incompetent but which flight arriving on March 2, 2018 around 4pm did they take?!







SU2588 SVO-LGW has been alleged, Aeroflot (738), 1345 departure, 1445 arrival.

Pulling up the date for that particular flight:

Actual:
https://www.flightera.net/img/acft_dep.png 14:39 (11:39 UTC)
Departed 54 min delayed
https://www.flightera.net/img/acft_arr.png 15:33 (15:33 UTC)
Landed 48 min delayed

TEEEJ
6th Sep 2018, 23:07
Seems Craig Murray and others have already spotted significant issues with the Photos.

And Craig's conclusion.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/the-impossible-photo/

Raises more questions than answers.

Again, the "dodgy" photos.....

Even Murray has realised that he was mistaken over the Gatwick CCTV images.

Murray wrote

I am prepared to acknowledge that, given the gate design, they could have passed through different gates in exact synchronicity and this may be a red herring. I am leaving this post up here as it is good to acknowledge mistakes.

DaveReidUK
6th Sep 2018, 23:11
Even Murray has realised that he was mistaken over the Gatwick CCTV images.

Good on him. Humility is good for the soul. :O

TEEEJ
6th Sep 2018, 23:48
I doubt we are getting anything like the whole story, and strongly suspect that there is a load of detail that's not being released.

If one of these guys was going around delivering leaflets, say for a pizza place or something, then it would probably be pretty easy to just walk along, dropping leaflets through letterboxes on that road and quickly drip or squirt that agent on the handle of the Skripal's house as he was doing it. Someone noted earlier that it wasn't common to see Russians wearing a baseball cap. I can't read what it says on that cap, and the guy is only seen wearing it after the attack, on the walk back towards the station, so maybe that was part of an attempt to blend in as someone delivering leaflets.

I would agree with you on that scenario with the baseball cap, VP. The guy is seen wearing it in on the route that would take them to the Skripal's house. The guy with the baseball cap is now wearing the back pack as you can see the strap on his right shoulder. As you say that would be perfect cover for a leaflet delivering scenario and nobody would give them a second glance.

http://resources.mynewsdesk.com/image/upload/c_limit,dpr_1.0,f_auto,h_700,q_auto,w_670/uejdm6pro2pgdwgddof3.jpg

CCTV5 = image of both suspects on Wilton Road, Salisbury at... - Metropolitan Police (http://news.met.police.uk/images/cctv5-equals-image-of-both-suspects-on-wilton-road-salisbury-at-11-58hrs-on-04-march-2018-1408003)

That image geo-locates to the Shell garage on Wilton road.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1518x921/shell_a02a1b3e56e84b6b900bfdce6936839dd8353549.jpg

Google Street View link.

https://goo.gl/maps/dbdDv8UmpL22

White arrow Shell garage

Yellow arrow Skripal house

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/930x798/shell1_f03aafd624271f1dce762f84b604b4e89fb31ea9.jpg

It would seem likely that they took the pedestrian path that leads onto Montgomery Gardens rather than the longer route of Canadian Avenue.

Google Street view of the path across the road from the Shell garage.

https://goo.gl/maps/KC82e2W6qgt

Pontius Navigator
7th Sep 2018, 07:27
Calm, relaxed, no out of character get a way car. This is not a pair doing a one-off or first time mission.

Their whole demeanour is one of normal confidence and familiarity. Compare with your own behaviour in a foreign town or even a strange one in UK. You often have a map, you look up at street signs, you look around to get your bearings. I wonder if other CCTV images show any tourist uncertainty or confirm professionals.

Certainly no Hollywood skulking in shadows, checking for shadowers, jumping on and off buses.

For VP, how does this relate to your previous supposition of their route?

KelvinD
7th Sep 2018, 07:47
Is it possible to have a trial "in absentia" in the UK? If so, surely the government can use the "Russia doesn't deport.." argument to try this pair in their absence, naturally after sending them an invitation to the proceedings.
That would allow the government to air all their evidence and show us all how they came to their conclusions.
Did anybody notice yesterday's reports re support for the UK position from some allies? In one statement, these allies were quoted as saying they were "almost certain" of Russian government involvement. In another statement the words were a bit different:
"We have full confidence in the British assessment that the two suspects were officers from the Russian military intelligence service, also known as the GRU," (per BBC). The "almost certain" statement got my attention as it made me wonder if the pair could be "almost guilty"!

Fitter2
7th Sep 2018, 07:52
There are some governments we share information with more fully than with others; although the massive upsurge in Moscow Troll activity on the subject a few days before the public announcement indicates that the Kremlin/GRU knew what was about to drop on them. One wonders where they got the information, and what else they know so as to have the obfuscation prepared.

VP959
7th Sep 2018, 08:27
Calm, relaxed, no out of character get a way car. This is not a pair doing a one-off or first time mission.

Their whole demeanour is one of normal confidence and familiarity. Compare with your own behaviour in a foreign town or even a strange one in UK. You often have a map, you look up at street signs, you look around to get your bearings. I wonder if other CCTV images show any tourist uncertainty or confirm professionals.

Certainly no Hollywood skulking in shadows, checking for shadowers, jumping on and off buses.

For VP, how does this relate to your previous supposition of their route?

Pretty close, although I'd missed the footpath access to Wilton Road, so assumed they had gone the longer way around. The railway station is practically adjacent to the Churchfields Industrial estate, and I'd assumed they'd have diverted that way to avoid the CCTV cameras at the garage, the college (used to be the police station) and the law courts, but it seems they weren't the slightest bit bothered by being seen on CCTV at all. I also assumed they'd have got away by car, so head off to the South of the city, where getting away is a lot easier, but it seems they chose to use the train. It looks very much as if they calmly sauntered around Salisbury for a time before getting the train back to Waterloo, too.

flash8
7th Sep 2018, 08:36
There are some governments we share information with more fully than with others; although the massive upsurge in Moscow Troll activity on the subject a few days before the public announcement indicates that the Kremlin/GRU knew what was about to drop on them. One wonders where they got the information, and what else they know so as to have the obfuscation prepared.

Those that refuse to drink the Kool-Aid are deemed trolls? Some of us think for ourselves.

PS. It's abbreviated the GU now not the GRU, you'd have thought even the BBC parrots would have caught up, but no.

Sallyann1234
7th Sep 2018, 08:47
The "almost certain" statement got my attention as it made me wonder if the pair could be "almost guilty"!
Most convictions are on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt". Is that more or less certain than "almost certain"?

atakacs
7th Sep 2018, 08:56
Is it possible to have a trial "in absentia" in the UK? If so, surely the government can use the "Russia doesn't deport.." argument to try this pair in their absence, naturally after sending them an invitation to the proceedings.
That would allow the government to air all their evidence and show us all how they came to their conclusion.
One interresting move would be for the two guys to actually surrender themselves. Imagine the s**storm.

Kerosene Kraut
7th Sep 2018, 16:27
How about the chemical warfare part? Is there any international organization to go to court over this? Pretty incredible to kill people in other countries by using weapons of mass destruction in peace time.

KelvinD
7th Sep 2018, 17:40
Sallyann: Most convictions are on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt".
All convictions are secured on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt.

VP959
7th Sep 2018, 18:14
How about the chemical warfare part? Is there any international organization to go to court over this? Pretty incredible to kill people in other countries by using weapons of mass destruction in peace time.

There are, as I understand it, two elements to this.

There's the breach of the Chemical Weapons Convention, in using, or allowing to be used, a prohibited chemical agent, then there is the legal definition of what constitutes an "act of war", which frankly I don't think this attack comes close to meeting. There was certainly extremely careless disregard for human life by whoever disposed of the perfume bottle (and we have no publicly available evidence that links that with these two suspects, as far as I know), and that may or may not form the basis of a murder or manslaughter charge, but I have doubts as to whether either the deliberate act of spreading a prohibited chemical agent on a door handle, or reckless disposal of a container of the same prohibited chemical agent, could possibly be seen as warlike acts.

If it turns out that the Russian state was behind the attack, then I doubt that anything other than sanctions would be imposed. Kicking Russia out of the CWC would be pointless, as there is already some evidence that they don't comply with it (despite being signatories) in that they don't allow full and open inspections of all their facilities, and haven't done for years. Having said that, they are not alone, and there are other CWC signatories that play lip service to the agreement they have signed, so I don't think we can draw too much from Russia's stance.

One Outsider
7th Sep 2018, 20:32
Well, isn't Flash8 going to be busy now.

currawong
8th Sep 2018, 00:26
The repeated offers of assistance in the investigation from Russia, subject to the provision of evidence, have evaporated with the provision of evidence.

Not happy with the evidence? Then refute it, with something more than rhetoric.

Perhaps names and dates, photos and surveillance footage would be a good start.

Failing to do so is a damning indictment on its own. Lazy or guilty?

treadigraph
8th Sep 2018, 06:48
Seems to be an update on this story:

Paramedic says Nikolai Glushkov believed he was poisoned (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45455464)

DaveReidUK
8th Sep 2018, 07:28
Well, isn't Flash8 going to be busy now.

But it looks like Racedo has had to go off and and lie down in a darkened room to recover from the shock of getting something right. :O

For once, you are actually correct. :D

ShotOne
8th Sep 2018, 11:16
Lets say these charges are all made-up or mistaken. All Russia has to do to blow them out the water and make them look ridiculous is produce these two chaps and have them explain why they were in Salisbury. Their identities were real enough to allow them to pass through immigration controls at Moscow Airport.

419
8th Sep 2018, 12:55
All convictions are secured on the basis of beyond reasonable doubt.
What about when the accused pleads guilty? In some cases where the accused pleads guilty then there is not a trial by jury hence there is no requirement for the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt as there is no one to prove this to.

flash8
8th Sep 2018, 14:10
Well, isn't Flash8 going to be busy now.
Well, now you mention it :)

My thoughts, as you know I am known for my complete lack of bias in these matters.... are that the Ukrainians are behind this, just the sort of dastardly low-lives whom would commit such an atrocity. By the way you seem to have CCTV everywhere in the UK nowadays... that in itself a tad worrying... It's CCTV country...

However, and this is where I lay my cards on the table, if these individuals are found on Russian soil I may be inclined to believe that something dodgy has occurred, with our without Russian state help but implicating the RF in someway, whilst not iron-clad it would definitely raise some suspicion, even amongst the Russian people (who would not likely but definitely view them as heroes however...)

On the other hand, if they pop up in Ukraine, it will not be the least surprising. ;)

I know Ukraine well and wouldn't put anything past them.

KelvinD
8th Sep 2018, 14:47
419: When the accused puts their hand up and pleads guilty, they have themselves removed all reasonable doubt.

ShotOne
8th Sep 2018, 15:29
Flash, if Ukraine were behind this, surely the Russian state would be pulling out every stop to track down these two individuals and assist the U.K. Government in placing them before a court?

VP959
8th Sep 2018, 15:35
Flash, if Ukraine were behind this, surely the Russian state would be pulling out every stop to track down these two individuals and assist the U.K. Government in placing them before a court?

That's exactly what I thought when I read the suggestion that they might be Ukrainian. Russia would have been pulling all the stops out to track them down if they are, and I think we could expect a massive amount of publicity from Russia about being falsely accused by the West, by the Ukraine undertaking the attempted assassination of a Russian national whilst she was in the UK, etc. etc. (I'm pretty sure that Yulia Skripal doesn't hold UK citizenship, only Russian, and suspect Sergei Skripal was stripped of his Russian citizenship as a part of the spy swap deal).

flash8
8th Sep 2018, 17:28
Flash, if Ukraine were behind this, surely the Russian state would be pulling out every stop to track down these two individuals and assist the U.K. Government in placing them before a court?They seem to be known by no one. Strange, given the passport type photos splurged over the net.

You could argue they (RF) are working overtime also trying to track this pair of scoundrels. However, it may well be they aren't on Russian soil. Recall Russia's offer to share intelligence with the UK over such matters, and the UK refusing (probably in my opinion quite reasonably) to release any information, it may well be Moscow is also searching furiously.

My assertion this was Ukraine wasn't tongue-in-cheek, they genuinely have a motive to discredit Russia, and consider themselves almost at war with the RF (almost, because a declaration would see them squashed), they also are quite sophisticated in such matters, and could well have engineered this, again with native Russian speakers. Although generalising in this case doesn't offer much, this pair would not look out of place on a Russian/Ukrainian/CIS street, they are almost archetypal I dare say. It can't be discounted this was a state discredit job.

In the video from the coin shop that was flogged to the Mail (with the timing after the poisoning mechanism was placed) the pair look remarkably jovial.. there is something a little odd about that video, they just don't seem to be nonplussed in any way, not what you'd expect at all really, in any circumstances, this was a professional serious job, that pair looked like a pair of relaxed tourists. Yes, weak I know.. but watch it yourself with an open mind. It really is odd given human nature.

I'm not an apologist by the way or a troll. I am quite open to the fact that Putin and his so-called henchmen engineered this, but so much surrounding this case is baffling that it cannot be possible to discount alternate scenarios. No I don't think it was the RF, for a host of reasons, but of course I could be wrong.

I also trust the UK government not an inch (no, I don't trust the Russian one either).

DaveReidUK
8th Sep 2018, 17:40
What about when the accused pleads guilty? In some cases where the accused pleads guilty then there is not a trial by jury hence there is no requirement for the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt as there is no one to prove this to.

A conviction is a jury verdict following a trial. A guilty plea does not require a trial or a jury verdict.

VP959
8th Sep 2018, 17:55
I get the impression that Russia has a pretty damned good foothold inside the Ukraine, and considers the Ukraine to really be a part of the RF, and is doing as much as it reasonably can to undermine the Ukrainian government and take back the whole of the Ukraine into the RF. As such, I'd be surprised if the Russian Federation didn't have damned good intelligence from within the Ukraine.

I don't doubt that the Ukraine has a motive for implicating Russia, but are the Ukrainian security services really so good that they can outwit their Russian counterparts for several months? (I don't believe for one minute that the Russian government haven't been looking at this through a microscope since the day it happened, assuming that they didn't know about it).

KelvinD
8th Sep 2018, 18:03
Sorry Dave but I have to differ there.
The terms conviction and convicted refer to the final judgment on a verdict of guilty, a plea of guilty, or a plea of nolo contendere.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+conviction

419
8th Sep 2018, 18:17
A conviction is a jury verdict following a trial. A guilty plea does not require a trial or a jury verdict.
No. A conviction is when a law court finds or agrees that someone is guilty of a crime.
You do not need a jury trial to be convicted of a crime.
If you plead guilty and the judge accepts that plea then from that moment on you have been convicted of an offence.

When you get a criminal record check, the certificate shows convictions so going by what you stated, if you plead guilty and there was no jury trial, that offence wouldn't be shown under convictions on the DBS certificate.

Appeal a crown court verdict.
You can appeal against your conviction, sentence or both. It does not matter if you pleaded guilty or not guilty.
https://www.gov.uk/appeal-against-sentence-conviction/crown-court-verdict

Pontius Navigator
8th Sep 2018, 18:24
there is something a little odd about that video, they just don't seem to be nonplussed in any way, not what you'd expect at all really, in any circumstances, this was a professional serious job, that pair looked like a pair of relaxed tourists.

Once a period of tension in an operation is over will come euphoria of a job well done. Why would they not be relaxed and in buoyant mood?

People are more likely to remember tension, alert and watchful than carefree.

flash8
8th Sep 2018, 19:15
Once a period of tension in an operation is over will come euphoria of a job well done. Why would they not be relaxed and in buoyant mood?They are still in theatre! I'd personally be bricking it until I was safely away, and I'm a native... it will be interesting when this pair are identified... if they ever are, can't imagine any circumstances they won't be, after all, nobody can have zero history, childhood friends, enemies, endless list. Or perhaps they'll disappear down the Novichok wormhole like all the others, yes the last part was quite unnecessary.