View Full Version : Tough decision
Hello. I'm looking for some advice on whether to start on my ATPL course. I've recently sold my business and seriously considering investing my money in an ATPL. My concern is the reality of employment prospects within 6 months of completing a course. For those who have gone through the process is it likely the I would go into employment within this time frame or is it a pipe dream.? The academies, such as L3, are saying there are good jobs out there and that 98% or graduates are employed within 8 months, whereas some websites state that there is a large over stock of pilots in the UK and Europe, making it very difficult. What I have sold my business for would cover the costs of the ATPL, type rating and lack of income for 24 to 30 months so I am happy to spend it, however I would not want to naively throw the money away without realistic employment options.
I think there is a window of about 18 months while things are lively in the fixed wing world, after which the usual unplanned glut will apply. It would appear to be similar in Canada as well.
rudestuff
6th Mar 2018, 08:14
It's the things I didn't do that I regret the most.
superflanker
6th Mar 2018, 08:19
I think there is a window of about 18 months while things are lively in the fixed wing world, after which the usual unplanned glut will apply. It would appear to be similar in Canada as well.
How do you know it will last 18 months? Perhaps i'm being over-optimistic (as a student who wants to get a job) but I've heard that this "good cycle" could last a bit more than other ones.
Nobody knows, but there has always been a shortage since Air Europe went down, except nobody admitted it. But based on past experience and the usual not thinking past the next lunchtime, I think it would be that. But you're right, this one could last a bit longer based on the projections from the manufacturers.
As far as we are concerned, that's future pain. You won't get a job without a licence anyway so concentrate on that first, although you are quite right to be concerned.
Phil
Thomas coupling
6th Mar 2018, 11:16
tpdfc:
If you're after a CPL(IR) frozen ATPL fixed wing - your chances of getting a job are very high indeed. I would say in excess of 90%. But to qualify this, you should embrace the following: Do an integrated course (get it all done and dusted in one fell swoop), either 15 months (FTE) or a little longer with the others. Airlines turn to these "known knowns" first and the modular (known unknowns) individual last.
Be preparaed to get a job with (almost) any airline world wide (to clock your hours up to achieve Captaincy as fast as possible.
Currently that is with Ryan Air in the UK because they flog their pilots to death (1000hrs/yr) and pay them peanuts. BUT....but, they make you a Captain within 4 to 5 years where the starting salary is £100k+. You can then dump RA and get a proper airline job.
ATPL (RW) - much much more dodgy prospects. The industry flop cocks along and is always in a bit of a quandry. IF you insist on gaining an ATPL(IR)(RW), stick with the big boys (Corporate/offshore) where the chances of staying in work are better and the money is good.
Globally, there is a demand for 600,000 airline pilots by 2035.
The EU alone wants 100,000 to meet its needs.
RA want 600 this year.
Easyjet: 450.
This is the time line for you:
Month 1: Acceptance interview by one of the big 3 schools in europe.
Months 2-3: Start with school.
Month 17-18: (FTE is a 15 month course, 18 months with Oxford: Gain CPL(IR)MCC. JOC.
Month 19: Interview with airline.
Month 19-24: Type rating, base check and front line.
Cost: Not much change out of £150k. {Including B and B!].
Good luck.
Airlines battle growing pilot shortage that could reach crisis levels in a few years | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2017/12/20/airlines-battle-growing-pilot-shortage-that-could-reach-crisis-levels-in-few-years.html)
rudestuff
6th Mar 2018, 12:11
In lean times, a few airlines stick to hiring integrated guys. These are not lean times.
You can get into an airline job for £40k, and in much less than a year if you plan correctly and work hard. An integrated course, apart from throwing 60k down the toilet, shackles you to a fixed time frame. The same with modular ground school. I went distance learning, which enabled me to pass the exams in 3 months (instead of having to go at the pace of the class). We are in the middle of the best hiring period in years, but you never know when the music is going to stop, so consider it a race. Modular in a year is better than integrated in 18 months, especially if the hiring stops in 15 months!
The first thing to do is book yourself an EASA Class 1 medical. Book it today. If there’s a show-stopper it’s best to find out early.
Then, get yourself to the US and get an FAA PPL. Why? Because it’s cheaper and faster. You can get it in a month easily, vs much longer in the UK due to better weather, especially in winter.
Month 1 - PPL
Month 2-7 - Atpl exams with a flight every weekend or so
Month 8 - hour building (plenty of places in the US will rent you a plane for a month)
Month 9-10 - Complete a combined CPL/MEIR course (DFAS, Bartolini etc)
£40k all in. Quite why people spend £100k is beyond me. For that money you can get fATPLs and instructor ratings for both Aeroplanes and Helicopters. Or a 737 Type rating AND an A320 type rating AND a Dash8 type rating. (Which would be daft)
Don't forget that you can do flying training alongside the distance learning but you can't do the skill test until you pass the written exams. Any school that tells you otherwise (and there are many) is wrong.
Phil
How do you know it will last 18 months? ..”it” being the present upturn in employment prospects.
The honest answer is absolutely nobody knows.
The present upturn might last several years, it might end next week. I’d treat manufacturers estimates with a massive pinch of salt (they have aircraft and training systems to sell). I’d also caution that another black swan event like 9/11 or serious events kicking off in the Far East could stop recruiting overnight.
If you regard spending on an ATPL as gambling rather than than investing, you won’t be disappointed.
Thomas coupling
6th Mar 2018, 16:05
Rudestuff - no decent airline is going to hire someone who walks into an interview (if you ever get an interview with that background, that is) with those credentials. It is not in their interest to hire someone who has 'popped over' to the US and flown crap monotonous unsupervised sorties back and fore just to stack up hours. You'd have absolutely no credibility.
Secondly, even the plan to make this happen would need to be like clockwork, travel docs/visas/accom/transport/exams/resits/conversions to CAA licenses/ sim trips/type ratings/IR quals/MCC training/JOC.
It's insane to believe this will happen (a) first time round and (b) in short order. Life isn't that regulated I'm afraid.
Of course your worst enemy is yourself. Trying to remain focussed and disciplined when you're doing this all on your lonesome without the 'classroom' around you to encourage team effort/encouragement/etc.
How can it cost £40k, if the IR alone is £50k??? The type rating is: £35k. Exams are £3k. Accom is going to be around £3k. Twin time @ £800/hr soon adds up. Sim time? Get real and stop 'bigging' the cheap route up.
Do it once, do it properly. You don't have the time nor the money to cock it up and go round the buoy again. :ugh:
superflanker
6th Mar 2018, 16:22
How can it cost £40k, if the IR alone is £50k???
The ME/IR 50k?? Flying what, an Eurofighter?
Jokes apart, you can find ME/IR + CPL for €20k in Europe. Or even less!
rudestuff
6th Mar 2018, 16:36
Tpdfc: as you can see, there are different opinions on how to go about things! The guy above ^^^ seems to think that an IR costs 50 grand! I can assure you he’s completely wrong, you can easily get both CPL and IR for £20,000.
Flying unsupervised is actually a mandatory requirement to get a CPL (you need 100 hours *without* an instructor, making decisions by yourself) and trust me, you don’t fly around in circles, at least 50 hours have to be cross country. In the US you can fly into international airports and airspace of the kind that you wouldn’t be allowed near in the UK.
As for being taken seriously, believe it or not, most airlines don’t care where you did your hour building - you wouldn’t put it on your CV anyway. You will have noticed some of the pompous attitudes exhibited - trust me, there are (and will be) plenty of jobs which won’t involve sitting next to people like that. Do your own research, and feel free to PM me. I fly for a UK airline that hires people based on the person.
Thank you all for the responses, it has really helped with my research. Looking at the options I am keen on L3 Southampton or FTE Jerez, is there a lot of difference in the presitge of the schools or the job offers that may come from them? I am leaning towards FTE Jerez due to being in one location throughout the training, is that looked on unfavourably by recruiters?
rudestuff
7th Mar 2018, 18:40
...This^^^
BirdmanBerry
7th Mar 2018, 18:53
Can I ask how old you are tpdfc?
If you regard spending on an ATPL as gambling rather than than investing, you won’t be disappointed.
Sums it up. Spend what you can afford to lose.
Can I ask how old you are tpdfc?
I will be 32 when I start training. I've spoken to a few flight schools, read a lot of articles and although I'm a little older than the average student, I'm not too old. Is this correct?
BirdmanBerry
8th Mar 2018, 18:28
I couldn't answer that one as I'm more of a wannabe with only a few hours. I'm 38 and Flybe said that shouldn't work against me though.
Good luck!
CAT3C AUTOLAND
8th Mar 2018, 21:58
It is not in their interest to hire someone who has 'popped over' to the US and flown crap monotonous unsupervised sorties back and fore just to stack up hours. You'd have absolutely no credibility.
Thomas coupling,
Thats funny, I did exactly that and am now a Captain for a large legacy carrier in the UK. You are talking rubbish mate.
In fact, those hours over in the USA were some of the most enjoyable times in my life.