USS Lexington found and the condition of the Aircraft is staggering

[NutLoose]

Probably not the place to post it, but I hope some of you like it

See link for video

https://www.geekwire.com/2018/paul-allen-team-locates-another-long-lost-warship-uss-lexington-found-76-years-sinking/

Pail Allen has found the Lexington!! - General Discussion - LSP Forums (http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=73752#entry1019207)

https://i.imgur.com/4slEPPY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PBcvpdG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tBiFBHZ.jpg

[The Sultan]

Well done Mr. Allen!

[pr00ne]

WOW, just WOW!!!!

[Iron Bar]

Wow! VF 3, famous USN squadron. Can't have been too many squadron pilots with 4 kills at that point of the war. Butch O'Hare?? Great work, I believe there are still liberty ships at the bottom of the Coral Sea with P 38, 39 and 40's packed in boxes .....

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/574/pics/3_9_b1.jpg

[Lonewolf_50]

He could have saved a bit of money and simply driven down Interstate 37.
https://usslexington.com/

Well done, Mr Allen and the team for seeing this through.:}

[GeeRam]

Wow! VF 3, famous USN squadron. Can't have been too many squadron pilots with 4 kills at that point of the war. Butch O'Hare??

No, O'Hare scored his kills in F-15...which had 5 kill flags.

F-13 also wore 4 kill flags at the same time as well, and F-1 wore 3 kill flags.


The TBD's shown are combat vets that took part in the attack on the Shokaku and the Shoho.
T-4 and T-9 shown scored confirmed hits on the Shoho.

Incredible that the doped fabric rudder surfaces have not only survived but look like they only sunk a few days ago!!

[Not_a_boffin]

Incredible that the doped fabric rudder surfaces have not only survived but look like they only sunk a few days ago!!



I think that tends to reflect the fact that (if the depth reading on the stills is to be believed) she's over 9000ft down. Not much lives down there to affect the fabric etc...

[Danny42C]

Wiki has a good article on "The Lady Lex" . The hull will probably be in good condition as the ship was scuttled because of uncontainable fires.

[Abbey Road]

I think that tends to reflect the fact that (if the depth reading on the stills is to be believed) she's over 9000ft down. Not much lives down there to affect the fabric etc...
Cold, dark, and likely fairly anaerobic so, yes, not much to 'eat' at the aircraft structure. As the thread title alludes to, the condition of these aircraft is remarkable. The vividness of the various paint hues is amazing!

[GeeRam]

Historians have been doing a bit of digging plus blowing up the photos to reveal at least 3 letters from the name under the cockpit, seems in all probability that this F-4 was the mount of Noel Gayler, which tallies with the single bomb mission and the 4 kill flags.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4796/40661454551_b6a51a5b30_o.jpg

Gaylor later became a USN TP at Pax and eventually became Admiral Gayler, and served as US Naval Attache in London 1960-62, retired in 1976, and only passed away in 2011 aged 96.

[India Four Two]

but also a representative from Microsoft actually doing something useful. . . .

NAROBS,

Paul Allen has been doing useful things for the aviation community for many years:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Heritage_%26_Combat_Armor_Museum

Here’s my favourite - an airworthy Dora:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/71/68/11/7168118c9cc9e3362cd32048bbff7686.jpg

[jolihokistix]

For general background, Felix with the lit fuse and the Lexington are mentioned here in our flexible Wiki friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-31


VFA-31, was originally established as VF-1B on July 1, 1935 flying the F4B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F4B), making it the second oldest active US Navy squadron behind VFA-14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VFA-14) which was originally established in 1919. On 1 July 1937, the squadron combined with VF-8B and was redesignated VF-6, flying the F3F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F3F). Between the years 1937 and 1943 VF-6 flew the F3F-1 and two variants of the F4F Wildcat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F4F_Wildcat) and ended with the F4F-4. On 15 July 1943, VF-6 swapped designations with VF-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VF-6) and began flying the F6F Hellcat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat).
[/URL]
A VF-6 F4F-3 aboard [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)"]USS Enterprise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F4F-3_of_VF-6_taking_off_from_USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)_1942.jpg), March 1942.


Through the years the squadron and their predecessors have served on many of the Navy's aircraft carriers, including the first, the USS Langley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Langley_(CV-1)); the second, USS Lexington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lexington_(CV-2)); and the sixth, USS Enterprise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)). They were aboard Enterprise during the Attack on Pearl Harbor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor) as well as the battles of Wake Island (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wake_Island), Marcus Island (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minami-Tori-shima), Midway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway), Guadalcanal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guadalcanal_Campaign), and the Eastern Solomon Islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands_campaign). The squadron also saw aerial combat over the Philippines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines), Formosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formosa), Okinawa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa), and China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China).

[tdracer]

NAROBS,

Paul Allen has been doing useful things for the aviation community for many years:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Heritage_%26_Combat_Armor_Museum



India, as I understand it that all started out as Paul Allen's personal collection. However as it grew someone had the brainstorm to create a museum - I don't know if it actually makes a profit but at least it offsets the cost of storing his collection (and it makes for a very nice museum - I visited last year). BTW, nearly the entire aircraft collection is in flyable condition. For a while they'd fly one or two of the aircraft every summer weekend weather permitting (I'd often see them overfly my house near Paine Field), but my understand is they now limit flying to designated 'fly' weekends.

[NutLoose]

Official report into the loss and how it happened

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/logs/CV/cv2-Coral-prelim.html

Paul Allens site that shows the discoveries of the Indianapolis, Hood, Muasashi etc

https://www.paulallen.com/uss-indianapolis-history-and-discovery-materials/

https://www.paulallen.com/tag/underwater-exploration

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

There's a B777 waiting to be found a fair bit to the west.

[ShyTorque]

Surely, only sealed compartments would be subjected to crushing. An open aircraft structure would experience the same pressure on both sides.

[NutLoose]

He bought the Dora airworthy and it has never flown since being rebuilt as it was deemed to precious, Kurt Tank the designer, when he was still alive wanted them to enter it at Reno and race it.

https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/yellow-10-4310601/



..

[JOE-FBS]

"I understand that the returning RN Pacific Fleet, in 1945, ditched a large number of airworthy lend-lease American kit overboard - to keep post-war scrap prices high?"


An uncle of mine was a Hellcat pilot on HMS Pursuer (with the BPF) in the last few months of the war and he used to tell that after VJ day the aeroplanes were dumped into the sea because if they were written-off as war losses then the UK did not have to pay for them.

[Danny42C]

JOE-FBS (#21),

The position was this, under the terms of the Lend-Lease Agreement, the US had lent us these aircraft to fight a war. The War was over. Now we must (1) hand back anything they wanted (eg Dakotas): these, refitted as DC-3s, would be the backbone of short-haul civil aviation for years after the war; some are flying yet.

Or (2) if they didn't want them, we could (3) buy them (at a discounted price in scarce Us dollars), or (4), if we didn't want them either, we must destroy them completely, so that no part could come back on the market to compete with new US sales. It made perfect sense, really.

I had three Mk.III Vengeance, nobody wanted them (not even a single one as a museum specimen). My Group ordered me to burn them where they stood. I jibbed: they threatened me with Court Martial (but that is another story for another day).

Your uncle's Hellcats went that way (as did brand-new, crated aircraft, on the way to war zones, they were simply bull-dozed over the side of carrier decks). Pity, I suppose.

Danny.

[Arclite01]

I don't think anyone is thinking of recovery.

I am assuming that the ship is actually a war grave (although this doesn't seem to stop desecration of wrecks such as the Prince of Wales or the Repulse by trophy hunters and scrapmen).

Let's leave her as she is.

Arc

[NutLoose]

Actually they do not deem the aircraft as such.

From Flypast mags link

It's still a war grave no matter how far the debris field is scattered, and as such I concur with others that they should not be touched.

I spoke with the US Navy History & Heritage Command and they do not consider the aircraft found as war graves, only the ship.

[cargosales]

Slight thread drift but a genuine question, if any one knows the answer? I've googled loads and can't find it...

Why are US Navy squadrons known as VFx, be that VFA, VFN or whatever? Genuinely curious here.

CS

[MartinShadbolt]

The 'V' comes from the french 'voler' - to fly. So all aircraft carriers are CV..., which means Aviation Cruiser, with a 'N' for nuclear - don't get me started on the correct pronunciation :ugh:.

So, fixed wing squadrons inherited the 'V' and the second letter indicates Fighter (VF), Attack (VA) Fighter/Attack (VFA), Patrol (VP); except for marine squadrons which are always 'VMx...'. Helicopter squadrons start with a 'H' and lighter-than-air (blimps) used to start with 'Z'.

Since I'm not allowed to post links :ouch:, have a look at the wikipedia articles on USN hull classification codes and the list of USN flying squadrons.

Hope this answers the question

[Three Wire]

V is for fixed wing and H is foe helicopter.

Hence HU is Helicopter Utility squadron VF is for Fixed-wing Fighter.

[Jetex_Jim]

It's interesting that Low Background Steel seems to be of interest to the scrap metal merchants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
Low-background steel is any steel produced prior to the detonation of the first atomic bombs in the 1940s and 1950s. With the Trinity test and the Atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, and then subsequent nuclear weapons testing during the early years of the Cold War, background radiation levels increased across the world. Modern steel is contaminated with radionuclides because its production uses atmospheric air. Low background steel is so called because it does not suffer from such nuclear contamination. This steel is used in devices that require the highest sensitivity for detecting radionuclides.

The primary source of low-background steel is ships that were constructed before the Trinity test, most famously the scuttled German World War I battleships in Scapa Flow.[3]

Is the Lexington considered too deep to be salvaged?

[grunticus]

Slight thread drift but a genuine question, if any one knows the answer? I've googled loads and can't find it...

Why are US Navy squadrons known as VFx, be that VFA, VFN or whatever? Genuinely curious here.

CS

The "V" stood for "heavier than air" originally.

[pasta]

Is the Lexington considered too deep to be salvaged?
From a technical perspective, no - it could be accessed using giant grabbers, a bit like the ones you get in arcades. From a legal/moral perspective, it's a complete non-starter; as others have said it's a war grave.

I can't find details now, but I read a while ago that there have been issues with illegal salvage operators in certain parts of the far East recently, with entire wrecks disappearing. I don't know whether Lexington is in the area of concern, but if it is I hope they're not revealing the precise location.

[EXFIN]

I always thought V meant heavier than air, this related to the fact that when the designation came into use there were no helicopters, just airships ‘lighter than air’ and fixed wing ‘heavier than air’. Could be a complete red herring though!

[KenV]

I can't find details now, but I read a while ago that there have been issues with illegal salvage operators in certain parts of the far East recently, with entire wrecks disappearing. I don't know whether Lexington is in the area of concern, but if it is I hope they're not revealing the precise location.The USS Houston (The Battling Ghost of the Java Coast) was recently discovered (2014) and she had been heavily ravaged by salvagers. They're working hard to protect her now. But she is in relatively shallow waters unlike the Lady Lex which is nearly 2 miles down.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728423/Sunken-vessel-World-War-II-era-USS-Houston.html

[b1lanc]

Near the Solomon Islands. Famous for the 5 Sullivan brothers that died as a result of the torpedo attack. A bit of irony that they found it on St. Patricks Day. Lexington, Indianpolis - all of major importance in WWII. Good work Paul Allen!

[NutLoose]

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/606784-paul-allen-finds-another-one-uss-juneau-lost-600-aboard-1942-a.html

[BluSdUp]

A cold and hostile place the Barents Sea. Generally 230m deep and dropping to 600m to the west in a line from Svalbard via Bjørnøya to Norway.

And very much a nightmare for sailors from 1941 to 1945.
My Grand Uncle Olav had multiple trips on a Nortraship, a Knudsen tanker no less.
6 years he sailed, including a few trips to Arkangelsk. We owe them everything.

I think current, oxygen and general marine life has wore down a lot in the Barent Sea. Regardless , wrecks inside Norwegian territory here are classified as War Graves and off limits.

[jimjim1]

There's a B777 waiting to be found a fair bit to the west.

Mmmmm.

I was thinking that too.

MH370 might be a better use of the resources.

Interesting though.

[eltonioni]

Mmmmm.

I was thinking that too.

MH370 might be a better use of the resources.

Interesting though.

The wonderful thing about living in a free society is that people get to spend what they earn on whatever they like. If Paul Allan wants to invest his own money in deep sea historic wreck / war grave discovery then I say good luck to him. No doubt the arising increase in knowledge and technical expertise will add to the suite of tools that the Malaysia Airlines and the Malaysian / Australian governments and their agents can use in their own search for MH370.

It's fascinating to know that there are good examples of rare aeroplanes awaiting the day that somebody is ready to recover them responsibly. It would also be nice to know that some kind of open water policing could protect them from random pilfering but that seems to be pretty ineffective at the moment.