Vulcan B2?

[GLIDER 90]

Hello All

How many hours could a Vulcan B2 fly without been refuelled in midair or on the ground, and what was the longest sortie without been refuelled flown if known?

Glider 90

[TURIN]

*'being' not 'been'

Sorry its one of my bugbears.

[Old-Duffer]

There is a theoretical distance but your question needs to specify, weight, height flown, weather/air conditions, if it was carrying anything hanging underneath and probably several other parameters as well.

With respect the answer to your question will be meaningless unless you are more specific.

Old Duffer

[Icare9]

You'll find an answer by using Google to search
To make it "easier" for you, Wiki has
The last B.2 XM657 was delivered in 1965 and the type served till 1984. Whilst in service the B.2 was continuously updated with modifications including rapid engine starting, bomb-bay fuel tanks, wing strengthening to give the fatigue life to enable the aircraft to fly at low level (a tactic introduced in the mid-1960s), upgraded navigation equipment, terrain following radar (TFR), standardisation on a common nuclear weapon (WE.117) and improved ECM equipment.[49] The B.1As were not strengthened, thus all were withdrawn by 1968.[50] Nine B.2s were modified for a maritime radar reconnaissance (MRR) role[51] and six for an airborne tanker role.[52] An updated bomb rack assembly allowed the carriage of 30 1,000lb bombs, up from 21[53] and the updated wing profile increased range to 4,000nm (7,400km).[54]

[BEagle]

With 98% +16, probably a tadge over 7 hr if you really wanted to. Back in 1978 at Sunny Scampton, the 617th Dead Dog Mob and the 27th Geriatric Boat Spotters competed to fly the longest Vulcan sortie... Whereas 'Sweaters', our boss, told us that he'd personally kick the ar$es of any 35 Sqn crew to waste flying time on any such stupidity.

Good man!

[GLIDER 90]

Old Duffer

"Sir" with not "being" a Vulcan pilot I would not know the all upweight for take off and weather conditions etc, it was just a general question to pass away the time while "being" stuck in the snow!

[GLIDER 90]

Thanks to everyone else for the more positive answers.

[WIDN62]

"Sorry its one of my bugbears."

*it's not its*

That is one of mine!

[Duchess_Driver]

GLIDER90

Firstly, I may be wrong, but my reading of Old Duffers post was not one of sarcasm or of trying to be unhelpful- merely pointing out that there is never one simple answer to such a simple question.

Again, in Old Duffers defence (not that he needs me to fight his battles) it wasn’t him who commented on the Been and Being issue either.

Grammar- the difference between knowing your **** and knowing you’re ****.

[Saintsman]

I would have thought that it wouldn't fly for long if it hadn't been refuelled on the ground...

[GLIDER 90]

Duchess Driver

Steady on Duchess! I was not having a go at Old Duffer it was just a general question that's all, as regards " being" I think you miss understood in what I was meaning regarding "Turin" comment.

[Timelord]

G90. The longest unrefueled trip in my log book is a 6 hour high level transit. Most “bomber” sorties in my time were high -low and the longest of those was 5:20.
TL

[Timelord]

You'll find an answer by using Google to search
To make it "easier" for you, Wiki has
The last B.2 XM657 was delivered in 1965 and the type served till 1984. Whilst in service the B.2 was continuously updated with modifications including rapid engine starting, bomb-bay fuel tanks, wing strengthening to give the fatigue life to enable the aircraft to fly at low level (a tactic introduced in the mid-1960s), upgraded navigation equipment, terrain following radar (TFR), standardisation on a common nuclear weapon (WE.117) and improved ECM equipment.[49] The B.1As were not strengthened, thus all were withdrawn by 1968.[50] Nine B.2s were modified for a maritime radar reconnaissance (MRR) role[51] and six for an airborne tanker role.[52] An updated bomb rack assembly allowed the carriage of 30 1,000lb bombs, up from 21[53] and the updated wing profile increased range to 4,000nm (7,400km).[54]
Never heard of the 30x1000lb mod? When did that come in? Could wiki be wrong?

[ORAC]

Wiki citation is taken from this video. Avro or RAF?

https://youtu.be/eOmPJOT-wUg

[Timelord]

I’m pretty sure the 10 bomb carrier was never introduced.

[50+Ray]

Agree with Timelord.
Long duration would entirely depend on how much was in the bomb bay and what the minmum landing fuel for diversion was that day. Longest in my log book was 6 hours 30 minutes, which felt far too long. Cruise climb technique wouls have got a bit more.

[Pontius Navigator]

There was a GroupEx in 1967 when alternative aircraft in the stream were diverted from UK to Akrotiri and required to bomb El Adem range outbound. The following day they were ordered to repeat the exercise bombing El Adem before heading home. I wasn't on this exercise but think homebound 6.45 due to headwinds and they were very much on minimums. The distance is about 2400 nm.

My longest sortie was a hilohi, 5.45, which included a primary nav leg about one hour, a 360 mile low level, 1.30, and a high level secondary navex about 2 hrs. We had to make straight in approach to Pershore from high level over the Lake District. We landed just below minimums.

Both these instances were without internal bomb bay fuel.

Another time a crew calculation they could fly home from Chicago but permission was denied.

The much quoted 4000 mile unrefuelled range would have equated to about 8 hrs 40 min and that was in the same ball park as the supersonic Jaguar.

I think the Mk 1 had a much greater range, much lighter airframe, lower powered engines with lower fuel consumption. The very powerful 301 engines were optimized to lift two Skybolt missiles to 50,000 feet plus. They were least suitable for low level missions.

[Lyneham Lad]

As a spotty young rigger on E Dispersal, Scampton 1965, my recollection is the B2's (Blue Steel) would be seen-off to disappear into the wide, not very blue yonder only to reappear some five hours later and interrupt our bridge (or Uckers) pastime. ;)

[Barksdale Boy]

Longest in my logbook is an incredible (in retrospect) 6:50 on Ex Highwood on 04 Jul 79 - the ultimate in maritime boredom!

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC the Giant Voice sorties were around 6 hours, can BB confirm?

[BEagle]

Nope. The GV79 trips I flew averaged 5:05. My longest competition sortie was 5:25, but we had to land at McConnell to refuel for the 1:00 back to Barksdale.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wiki citation is taken from this video. Avro or RAF?

https://youtu.be/eOmPJOT-wUg

I remember seeing a diagram that showed the Vulcan configuration as a mine layer. I think the plan was to use its speed and accuracy to lay mine fields in the Skagerrak thus bottling up the Baltic Fleet. The problem with a multi-role aircraft is the diversion from its primary role, in this period nuclear delivery.

[pontifex]

The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)

[Tankertrashnav]

Pretty impressive Pontifex. Our late lamented AEO Ken Finlay was proud of one entry in his logbook from his days as a siggie on Neptunes. Take off was at 2345 and landing was at 0015 - the day after next. Sortie length 24hrs 30mins, but technically a 3 day trip.

[Barksdale Boy]

PN

04 Nov 80 GV semi-final (night) - 5:30.
12 Nov 80 GV final (day) - 5:20.

Perhaps Beagle could give 1979 comparison?

[Barksdale Boy]

Sorry Beags - missed your post. We had to refuel at Offut after the final but that gave our co the chance for a fleeting tryst with his fiancee!

[Pontius Navigator]

The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)
Which fits with my mention of the superior range and speed of the Mk1 Vulcan.
However I am not sure about the alleged 0.98 MN from early published sources.
I think BEagle is best qualified to talk Mach. IIRC the Mk 1 could do 0.96 but IMN or TMN I don't know. The Mk 2 was either 0.92 or 0.93 depending on engines with Auto Mach trim and a little faster without. I recall one high speed run with auto Mach trim off. The whole nav crate appeared to be rising and falling. In reality it was my eyeballs rolling. I guess with had quite large pitch movements.
I also recall the fastest low level speed as well north of 400 kts. It was on an away match attacking a French airfield as we were being chased down by a Vatour. The RTS was a bit vague about low level limits.

[Old-Duffer]

TTN,

Your post about Ken Finlay brought back memories of half a century ago. Was he not with us both at KT?

Old Duffer

[Busta]

I managed 6.35 on a Scampton Taceval sortie, 24th May '76 XM569
Lucky me it was daytime!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[NRU74]

The longest I can find in my logbook is 8.00 unrefueled, but that was in the queen of the skies on a cruise climb operation. (A Valiant for those who are in any doubt.)

Was that out of Lossie, cruise climb to c50,000 ft plus then to the Kola (sp) Peninsula area for a few hours back and forth, checking where the Russian sub was going after the ice was breaking, and then back to Wyton ?

[Tankertrashnav]

Your post about Ken Finlay brought back memories of half a century ago. Was he not with us both at KT?


He was indeed OD - up on top of Tai Mo Shan doing something highly secret under the leadership of Sqn Ldr "Batchy" Brown!

[Treble one]

It never happened, due to the cancellation of Skybolt, but...


Vulcan Phase 6 (Vulcan B.3)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Avro_Vulcan_B.3_top-view_silhouette.png/220px-Avro_Vulcan_B.3_top-view_silhouette.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avro_Vulcan_B.3_top-view_silhouette.png) [/URL]
Silhouette of the original study for the Vulcan B.3 patrol missile carrier.


In 1960, the Air Staff approached Avro with a request into a study for a patrol missile carrier armed with up to six [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skybolt_missile"]Skybolt missiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avro_Vulcan_B.3_top-view_silhouette.png) capable of a mission length of 12 hours. Avro's submission in May 1960 was the Phase 6 Vulcan, which if built would have been the Vulcan B.3. The aircraft was fitted with an enlarged wing of 121 ft (37 m) span with increased fuel capacity; additional fuel tanks in a dorsal spine; a new main undercarriage to carry an all-up-weight of 339,000 lb (154,000 kg); and reheated Olympus 301s of 30,000 lbf (130 kN) thrust. An amended proposal of October 1960 inserted a 10 ft 9 in (3.28 m) plug into the forward fuselage with capacity for six crew members including a relief pilot, all facing forwards on ejection seats, and aft-fan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbofan#Aft-fan_turbofan) versions of the Olympus 301

[Old Speckled Aircrew]

IIRC the Giant Voice sorties were around 6 hours, can BB confirm?
It's a no from me as well as Beags, my GV79 semi-final was 5:20 & the final 5:00.

[GLIDER 90]

Hello All

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


Regards

Glider 90

[airpolice]

GLIDER90

Firstly, I may be wrong, but my reading of Old Duffers post was not one of sarcasm or of trying to be unhelpful- merely pointing out that there is never one simple answer to such a simple question.

Again, in Old Duffers defence (not that he needs me to fight his battles) it wasn’t him who commented on the Been and Being issue either.

Grammar- the difference between knowing your **** and knowing you’re ****.

Punctuation, surely.

[ValMORNA]

TTN,


Don't see many references to TMS on here. Doing 24-hour duties because of the 'interesting' road journey!

[Pontius Navigator]

I think my GV times approaching 6 hrs was probably from late 60s, particularly when Bob Tompkins won the Nav Trophy. IIRC the USAF offered tanker support. Also I am not sure it included low level. I know the B57 sortie were around 5-50.

[Darvan]

Hello All

How many hours could a Vulcan B2 fly without been refuelled in midair or on the ground, and what was the longest sortie without been refuelled flown if known?

Glider 90

I know this is not strictly within the spirit of the thread but, nonetheless, is a valid example.

In 1982, Black Buck 6 flew for a total of 6 hours 40 mins 'unrefuelled'. From its final AAR bracket south after 7 hours airborne from Ascension Island it spent almost an hour overhead Port Stanley to launch 2 Shrike missiles against a TPS-43 radar before returning north. On its only return refuel bracket with a Victor, it spoked the basket and broke its probe. Following an emergency diversion to Rio de Janeiro resulting in it successfully evading 2 Brazilian F5s after jettisoning its crypto, targeting material and films through the escape hatch at 43 000 ft, it landed with a total of 1500 lbs fuel remaining - one engine flaming out when taxiing in. The minimum landing fuel for a Vulcan after diversion was 8000 lbs, reduced to 4000 lbs for operations. A visual circuit required 1700 lbs. The previous Black Buck 5 SEAD mission lasted for 16 hours (albeit with AAR), 5 mins longer than Black Buck 1.

[Yellow Sun]

It’s an interesting question, all the more so because the Vulcan was very rarely flown for endurance rather than range. My feeling is that had a sortie been planned for maximum endurance; i.e. minimum fuel flow; then comfortably in excess of 7 hours would have been achievable. Unless someone has a copy of the ODM lurking in their loft (and any of us can remember how to use it!) then it will be difficult to confirm.

The Nimrod OTOH would probably be flown for endurance for at least a portion of every sortie, although not for maximum endurance but to obtain the lowest fuel flow at the altitude dictated by tactical considerations. This might entail shutting down an engine(s); 2+1+1 or 2+2; but if maximum endurance was sought without constraint then it would be all 4 at optimum altitude, as high as possible. On one sortie when maximum endurance was the objective I went over 10 hours with a high Zero Fuel Weight aircraft.

Those who went on to fly rather more modern machinery will be well aware of the effect of entering Cost Index 0 in the FMCG and watching the managed speed drop to an alarmingly low value! You could save a lot of fuel but spend all day getting there.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

Unless someone has a copy of the ODM lurking in their loft (and any of us can remember how to use it!) then it will be difficult to confirm.

I have. If I can find it I will have a look.

As an aside, the first time I submitted the Wing operational war plan fuel summaries Ops 1a at Bomber, Norman Howard took one look and threw them back at me. Errors were using the wrong weights, including the 6,300lb weight of the Yellow Sun in the fuel and using 240kts for low level instead of 325kts. I asked him what the secret was
Simply he took the time for each sector, take-off to top of descent, TOD low level to final climb point, and FCP to overhead recovery. He added the first and last and three times the low level. He then looked at the high level cruise graph for that total time. Simples.

I drew up a combined fuel graph and could quickly check the plans submitted by the copilots. I never let on I had a cheat guide :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Don't see many references to TMS on here.

ValMORNA as Fire Officer at Kai Tak I had occasion to drive up the mountain to do the annual fire inspection at the unit. I was denied entrance by the aforesaid CO as I didn't have the requisite security clearance. As a fairly junior flying officer I couldn't really argue with him but I did point out that I couldn't sign off the fire inspection. He said if the place burned down he'd take the blame!

As you say -an "interesting" road journey.

Incidentally our weekly poker school in the mess was joined for a while by a CIA man who worked "up the hill". We thought this lent an air of glamour to our game!

[Icare9]

Originally Posted by Yellow Sun
including the 6,300lb weight of the Yellow Sun
... Blimey, time for a diet!

[Yellow Sun]

... Blimey, time for a diet!

Not me.

Ys

[Blacksheep]

...and reheated Olympus 301s of 30,000 lbf (130 kN) thrust.Good Lord! Imagine what that would sound like!

Hmm. A Concorde, I suppose.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good Lord! Imagine what that would sound like!

Hmm. A Concorde, I suppose.
And the rudder much too small.

[scorpion63]

4390

Interesting Avro proposal from 1952 for a very long range Photo recce version of the Vulcan

[Yellow Sun]

4390 Intersting Avro proposal from 1952 for a very long range Photo recce version of the Vulcan

A Zero Fuel Weight <75k is a touch optimistic to say the least!

YS

[ACW418]

They were going to remove the soup heaters obviously! Simples.

ACW

[Fareastdriver]

Fire Officer at Kai Tak I had occasion to drive up the mountain to do the annual fire inspection at the unit.

This wasn't the unit where fully loaded Japan Airlines 707 flew through the car park when he did a non standard go-around from Kai Tak.

[ricardian]

If you have access to the channel "Movies4men" then set your alarm for 3am on Tuesday, 10 Apr
Avro Vulcan
A documentary charting the history and development of the Avro Vulcan bomber aircraft.

[John LeBrun]

Hello All

How many hours could a Vulcan B2 fly without been refuelled in midair or on the ground, and what was the longest sortie without been refuelled flown if known?

Glider 90

I flew a Vulcan B2 with bomb bay tanks for 7:05 hours. I had proposed to HQ No 1 Group at Bawtry to take a Vulcan around the North Pole. The plan was to take off from Bodo in Norway, fly to the Pole, then once around, and back to Scampton. There were many airfields on the east coast of the UK should we run short of fuel. We proved the range by flying a large square in mid-Atlantic, climbing 1,000 feet at each corner (due to air traffic restriction, we could not do a proper cruise-climb). We landed with the minimum fuel - in those days, 8,000 lbs, which was raised a few years later to 10,000 lbs. Our project was rejected by No 1 Group. More is the pity since no Bomber Command aircraft had flown round the pole since war time. However, I believe John Pack of 27(?) Sqn managed a few minutes longer than my flight. I think he also managed to get above 60,000 ft.

[BEagle]

That trip around the North Pole would have been quite a challenge for the Plotter - unless there was any significant land from which a radar fix was possible? But an excellent training opportunity nonetheless - what a pity HQ 1 Gp said no!

J Le B - a name much feared and revered as OC GSU when I was on 35! Hope you're keeping well?

If I recall correctly, during one of those pre-Western Ranger briefs we used to be given by the GSU, you were describing the buttes to be seen on one particular OB route "The sort of thing from behind which you expect to see John Wayne appear on his horse".

"Thuh hell ya will, pilgrim....", I commented.

Your eyes narrowed and in a mock-Gestapo voice you simply said "Ve are ze GSU! Ve do ze jokes!"

At least I think it was you?

[Barksdale Boy]

J le B
Good to know you are alive and kicking!

[Pontius Navigator]

BB, my thoughts too.

As far as the polar trip, as far as I know they might have had GPI4. JP was the OC when my skipper was a co jo. They certainly had GPI6 with BS but as BS was only just entering Service.

The VC 10 route involved a refuel at Iceland and a recovery direct to Brize. I suppose radar fixes would have been possible of Svarlbard but night set to in winter would have been OK. Though there was one 'night's astro exercise panned up in to the Norwegian Sea in summer. The crews all complained after the event.

[GLIDER 90]

John Lebrun

Thank you much appreciated.


With living next to RAF Scampton & Waddington most of my life during the 70's & 80's I have always being fascinated by the Vulcan & Vulcan Scrambles at airshows. Like most Vulcan fans would have jumped at a chance of a flight in the aircraft. The next best thing was a flight in Concorde, good times!!

Glider 90

[MPN11]

In which case, Glider90, you may have witnessed the last full-blooded 1 Gp Survival Scramble during my time as SATCO Waddington. Both Wings launched everything, and the sky was full of fan-tracks climbing away from both stations in a clear sky. Lincolnshire vibrated, and the sight and sound was awesome to witness. How many did the Wings launch on that occasion? I could guess 2 dozen from XW.

1982? 1983? A fantastic Vulcan swan-song, apart from Black Buck of course.

[Yellow Sun]

Hello John,

Nice to know that you are still around. It was the V Force day at Newark Air Museum today, you would have recognised a few old faces.

The North Pole in. Vulcan would have been “challenging”. Grid navigation using MFS or even the later HRS might have been stretching things a bit. I flew with an ex V Force Nav on the Nimrod MR1 who wrote the 18 Gp SOP for high latitude navigation. He was quite pragmatic about it, saying that he would drop a couple of 8 hour buoys in the last polynya he passed northbound whilst he still had good fixing and then start again from them when returning southbound.

A few years later I did go to the Pole from Bodo in a Nimrod, but we had Twin Carousel and Omega. An MR2 followed a couple of weeks later using FIN1012 and Omega. By that time it was relatively straightforward.

YS

[Bill Macgillivray]

John,

Great to "hear" from you again! Many good memories from the old days!

Never did the North pole (in a Vulcan) but had a great short stages run to Canada with the "Reds" (still Gnats) as their guide (?) through a fairly Northerly route !!

Take care,
Bill.