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View Full Version : Delta punished by Georgia state legislators after dropping ties with NRA


DaveReidUK
2nd Mar 2018, 09:20
You couldn't make this stuff up.

After Delta (along with United) severed ties with the NRA following the Florida school shooting, Georgia's Republican-controlled state legislature voted to approve a tax package that would remove a $50m jet fuel tax exemption that the carrier currently benefits from.

Georgia's Lieutenant Governor had previously tweeted "I will kill any tax legislation that benefits @Delta unless the company changes its position and fully reinstates its relationship with @NRA. Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back."

https://twitter.com/CaseyCagle/status/968199605803454465

BBC: Florida school shooting: US airline to lose tax break over NRA row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/43250091)

Dannyboy39
2nd Mar 2018, 09:31
Whereas I see an article elsewhere this morning about US airlines bemoaning supposed state help for the Middle East carriers. Despite them going into Chapter 11 several times and tax breaks such as this.

Welcome to Trump's 'merica!

sleeper
2nd Mar 2018, 09:38
Whereas I see an article elsewhere this morning about US airlines bemoaning supposed state help for the Middle East carriers. Despite them going into Chapter 11 several times and tax breaks such as this.

Welcome to Trump's 'merica!

I think these practices were in place way before mr Trump took office.
It's obvious you don't like the man, but you cant blame him for things done under previous presidents.

KelvinD
2nd Mar 2018, 10:15
Pathetic! And people actually vote these clowns into office regularly? What would happen if Delta said "OK. And all card carrying Republican Party members will be denied boarding Delta aircraft"? What would happen to Atlanta if Delta folded? The loss of revenue would make the $50M tax break look a bit thin!

BRE
2nd Mar 2018, 11:07
So what was the relationship Delta and Untied had with the NRA? I would think that to be much more newsworthy than a lt. gov. throwing a tantrum because he is not getting his perceivedly due allegiance by the corporate world.

vapilot2004
2nd Mar 2018, 11:13
Republicans in Georgia have pointed a gun at Delta's head with the NRA's finger on the trigger. They can't possibly leave Hartsfield profitably, and the Lt governor knows it.

This is an ethically gray area, and is reminiscent of the civil rights era, when Southern US states, including Georgia, with racist politicians in charge, took punitive action against pro-integration companies and organizations in the 1960s.

If a connection can be made between the interim Lt Governor's threats and Delta's choice to gain distance from a controversial political organization like the NRA, constitutional questions will follow. Cagle's immature, Trumpian tweet crosses into that territory.

sky9
2nd Mar 2018, 11:15
If I understand this correctly Delta and United have been getting a tax break on fuel uplifted in Georgia, other airlines need to be asking questions.

Boeing are always very quick at claiming unfair competition, are international airlines flying through Atlanta being put at a disadvantage?

DaveReidUK
2nd Mar 2018, 11:19
So what was the relationship Delta and Untied had with the NRA? I would think that to be much more newsworthy than a lt. gov. throwing a tantrum because he is not getting his perceivedly due allegiance by the corporate world.

As the link in my original post explains, Delta offered discounts to NRA members, as no doubt it does to other similarly large affinity groups.

That may have been poor judgement on DL's part, but it clearly decided that (up to now) it was good marketing.

BRE
2nd Mar 2018, 11:33
Delta should move their hub in retaliation. PIT was a sorry affair for many years after USAir moved to PHL and still has not recovered fully.

There is a nyt article on the tax break
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/business/delta-nra-georgia.html

Apparently, the tax break was about to be granted but was axed now. Article does not say if DL would have been the sole beneficiary. It certainly would have raised questions about legality.

TURIN
2nd Mar 2018, 11:50
Wasn't there something about 'draining the swamp' a while back.

You really could not make this up. :*

vapilot2004
2nd Mar 2018, 11:51
Notes on state-levied jet fuel taxes:

In 2015, the FAA mandated that state taxes on jet fuel were not a cash cow, but should be spent on aviation infrastructure. The grace period on that rule expired December 2017. The state of Georgia protested the new rule, but have complied.

The jet fuel tax break originated in 2005, and was enacted to assist Delta while they were facing bankruptcy. They are the number one employer in the state and currently contribute over $40 Billion annually to the Georgia economy.

The tax break was not specific to Delta airlines, but as the largest consumer of jet fuel in the state, they benefited the most. It may interesting to note that jet fuel taxes in the states are per gallon, and not based upon the going rate.

Despite the loss of the tax break, financial analysts say Delta won't be stung too badly, as they managed to eke out a little over 3.5 Billion in profits last year. Guess who would bear the burden of the $50 odd million dollar loss? If you guessed labor, you're probably right.

Wasn't there something about 'draining the swamp' a while back.


Interesting you should mention that, Turin. Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign manager, now indicted under criminal charges, pretty much invented the swamp as we know it today and is considered the king of modern lobbyists.

glad rag
2nd Mar 2018, 12:55
Wasn't there something about 'draining the swamp' a while back.

You really could not make this up. :*

What you cant make up is who the school was named after and what she was noted for in environmental terms!!!

IE she stopped the draining of the everglades for commercial developments!!

now write that on a tinfoil hat!!!

sitigeltfel
2nd Mar 2018, 13:38
Twelve posts so far and ten of them PPRuNers who say they are not US based!

Outrage by proxy?

PDR1
2nd Mar 2018, 13:43
A matter of time-zones, perchance...

PDR

Highway1
2nd Mar 2018, 13:49
The tax break was not specific to Delta airlines, but as the largest consumer of jet fuel in the state, they benefited the most. It may interesting to note that jet fuel taxes in the states are per gallon, and not based upon the going rate.

Despite the loss of the tax break, financial analysts say Delta won't be stung too badly, as they managed to eke out a little over 3.5 Billion in profits last year. Guess who would bear the burden of the $50 odd million dollar loss? If you guessed labor, you're probably right.


But who bears the burden of the tax break - the rest of the taxpayers in Georgia.

I can see the logic of a temporary tax break to help a company in financial difficulties - but not for one making record profits.

Sailvi767
2nd Mar 2018, 14:19
So what was the relationship Delta and Untied had with the NRA? I would think that to be much more newsworthy than a lt. gov. throwing a tantrum because he is not getting his perceivedly due allegiance by the corporate world.
Like many organizations the NRA got a small discount on airfares to and from their annual convention. 5 to 10%.

Sailvi767
2nd Mar 2018, 14:27
But who bears the burden of the tax break - the rest of the taxpayers in Georgia.

I can see the logic of a temporary tax break to help a company in financial difficulties - but not for one making record profits.

Delta has the ability to shift flights and jobs in and out of GA. GA will in the end lose far more than 50 million in tax money. With a multiple hub system they can route flights many ways. I suspect you will see DTW get more international. In addition they can reduce their fuel purchases substantially in GA via tankering fuel.
That is why most states offer tax incentives to large corporations. They gain more income from the jobs and economic boost than they lose in taxes. I can assure you that behind the scenes international routes were tied to this tax cut.
Take a look at the competition under way now for Amazon. The dimwits in GA just knocked themselves out of the running.

aterpster
2nd Mar 2018, 14:37
I think these practices were in place way before mr Trump took office.
It's obvious you don't like the man, but you cant blame him for things done under previous presidents.
Spot on! A Ziggy cartoon the other day had the TV weatherman blaming the president for the bad weather.

Turbine D
2nd Mar 2018, 14:43
It's probably true that Delta can't move out of Atlanta. However, the State of Georgia may be shooting themselves in the foot by going after their current largest employer. Amazon is watching carefully as to what happens to Delta as Atlanta is on the short list for establishment of a second Amazon headquarters. Georgia's legislature may rue the day they decided to penalize Delta should Amazon eliminate Atlanta from consideration...

cappt
2nd Mar 2018, 15:32
This is what happens when you play knee jerk politics. BTW, Amazon pays zero taxes.

gearlever
2nd Mar 2018, 16:01
Another one....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/02/2-shot-central-michigan-university-gunman-still-large/388570002/

esscee
2nd Mar 2018, 16:04
Now I wonder what would happen if a certain Mr O' L***** was running Delta. Much swearing and threats to pull out of Georgia, maybe?

Gove N.T.
2nd Mar 2018, 16:44
Twelve posts so far and ten of them PPRuNers who say they are not US based!

Outrage by proxy?

I suggest we 'aliens" are bemused (outraged might be too strong an emotion) by the events of the recent past and the reaction of a supposedly sane individual to a decision possibly made in response to childrens appeals.

bullfox
2nd Mar 2018, 17:31
When the scent of gun powder is no longer hanging in the air, tax breaks in Georgia will go back to the way they were.

J.O.
2nd Mar 2018, 17:53
When the scent of gun powder from those constitutionally protected ball flintlocks is no longer hanging in the air, tax breaks in Georgia will go back to the way they were.

Slight revision for clarity. ^^

Blind Squirrel
2nd Mar 2018, 18:58
This is part of a growing tendency in the U.S. to politicise business decisions based on political antagonisms. A similar kerfuffle arose in 2012 when the mayor of Boston and an alderman in Chicago announced that they would deny the fast-food chain Chik-Fil-A permits to open branches in their cities because Chik-Fil-A's CEO, a Southern Baptist, was on record as opposing gay marriage. (The mayor backed down when he was informed that to do so was probably illegal; I'm not sure what happened in Chicago.)

I daresay we'll see more of this kind of thing in the future. The United States is going through one of those phases, as did Britain in the early 1980s, in which both left and right are shifting toward their respective extremes and the middle ground is shrinking almost to the vanishing point.

Lonewolf_50
2nd Mar 2018, 20:01
Wasn't there something about 'draining the swamp' a while back. :* I think that Trump's swamp draining remarks were aimed at a city a few hundred miles north, called Washington DC. As to the LT Governor's remarks, I suspect they will backfire on him. There are a number of other large groups who get airline discounts include AARP, which I am a member of. (I need to check and see if they have a deal with American ... wife wants to fly to DFW soon ...).


@BlindSquirrel
That comment about extremes strikes me as accurate. It appears that both camps are convinced that unless they take an extreme position, then there is no way get something close to what they want if they do try to cut a deal ... and at the same time, they pander to their electoral base. A vicious circle in more ways than one.

Crepello
2nd Mar 2018, 20:13
Good for Georgia - I was surprised but delighted to read of this.

Shame on Delta for their knee-jerk act of cowardice. Interesting that so many of the above posters applaud Delta's playground bullying, but squark loudly when a politician actually has the balls to play them at their own game.

Only decision for my family is where in Georgia (a tremendous and hospitable destination, BTW) to spend our Spring Break!

b1lanc
2nd Mar 2018, 21:02
When the scent of gun powder is no longer hanging in the air, tax breaks in Georgia will go back to the way they were.
You do realize that Delta hasn't had those tax breaks since 2015? They were originally granted in 2005 when the carrier was in financial trouble and Delta was lobbying to get them back again despite making $3.6B profit last year.

Curious Pax
2nd Mar 2018, 21:07
Twelve posts so far and ten of them PPRuNers who say they are not US based!

Outrage by proxy?

Says the French-based serial commenter on UK politics...!

Sailvi767
3rd Mar 2018, 00:39
You do realize that Delta hasn't had those tax breaks since 2015? They were originally granted in 2005 when the carrier was in financial trouble and Delta was lobbying to get them back again despite making $3.6B profit last year.

Not only that but the tax break applies to all users not just Delta. Even the ME3 get the break on ATL flights. Here is a better understanding. The key point is ATL is one of the higher tax airports with or without the tax break.

“”Every State with an aviation hub has a similar tax break and as you know the State already enjoys collecting sales tax and a portion of facility fees based on passenger enplanements.

The fuel tax applies to everyone and will effect Southwest also.

What should be considered is that Georgia's taxes now result in the tax burden, per passenger, being about 250% of what American enjoys over in Charlotte, NC.

You should also recall North Carolina's bathroom bill which American came out firmly against. The Legislators threw a hissy fit, but had sufficient control of their emotions not to shoot their golden goose in retribution.

In Delta's case, the NRA was using Delta's logo in promotional materials. Delta has absolute control over their logo and right to use it (even if only 13 tickets were ever sold under the program).

The irony of this action stands out:
Citizens United was a decision which supported the right-wing position that Corporations have the same free speech rights as individuals. Compelling speech is a violation of the First Amendment. Ostensibly conservatives respect the Constitution
The Democrats were for the gas tax and the Republicans against
The tax is anti-corporate
The tax is government meddling in the free market
The tax attacks about 100,000 Georgia workers in aviation (far from just being a Delta thing)
Georgia Republicans used public money to try to intimidate a corporation (or Citizen as Citizens United would have you believe)””

galaxy flyer
3rd Mar 2018, 01:18
Sleepy Ed Bastian is walking it all back, anyway.

Delta CEO: 'We are supporters of the 2nd Amendment' - Mar. 2, 2018 (http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/02/news/companies/delta-nra-response/index.html?sr=twCNN030218companies1033AMStory)

parabellum
3rd Mar 2018, 03:52
"OK. And all card carrying Republican Party members will be denied boarding Delta aircraft"?


Well, if a tit-for-tat war was allowed to develop, (which I very much doubt), the Republican party would possibly test the legality of any Delta imposed ban and then sue the arse off Delta, which resolves nothing and helps no one, but would hurt. Following that Delta may find their landing rights and frequency under review in some states, and so it could continue, but I doubt it will.

dr dre
3rd Mar 2018, 04:39
I thought Republicans were all about the free market and the liberty of allowing private organisations to chose which other private organisations they wish to freely associate with? Why are they now using the power of the state in order to punish the free choice of a private entity?

parabellum
3rd Mar 2018, 04:46
Why are they now using the power of the state in order to punish the free choice of a private entity?


Could it be because a private entity is trying to punish another private entity?

dr dre
3rd Mar 2018, 05:29
Could it be because a private entity is trying to punish another private entity?


“Punish” or just end their relationship? If Delta decides it no longer wishes to offer discounts to the Boy Scouts, the Basket Weaving Enthusiasts League or the Atlanta Chess Society is it any of the state’s business? Almost everyday thousands of relationships between business and private organisations are altered or ended without the interference of the state, why is this one any different?

meadowrun
3rd Mar 2018, 06:04
Politics have no business in business.
But then there's reality.

tdracer
3rd Mar 2018, 06:40
Making business decisions based on politics is risky business.
With the US roughly evenly divided between the Left and Right, if you do something to please one side, you're pretty much guaranteed to piss off the other side. Alienating half your customers is seldom good business sense.
Much, much better to stay neutral (it's served the Swiss quite well).

Mr Mac
3rd Mar 2018, 08:52
tdracer
I always thought one of Americans greatest attributes was that of being able to compromise. It seems to being lost in this new age.


Regards
Mr Mac

compton3bravo
3rd Mar 2018, 09:10
When will the USA get into the 21st Century. They still seem to be playing Cowboys and Indians (oops sorry Native Americans), still using feet and inches, pounds for weight and the 12 hr clock system. Don't they realize that they are the laughing stock of the rest of the world (nobody likes me, but I don't care). Still if you have the biggest d***head in the world as President it says it all really!

meadowrun
3rd Mar 2018, 10:08
They do have problems (as do we all), but it is still a great and powerful country.


This incident smacks of pure political knives.


Delta pissed off an organization with strong political and $$$ (not to mention all the aficionados) ties to the republican party and after (I'm sure) vociferous complaints and much whining from said nra, that political party exercised its elephant weight shove with the (all too willing) same party government of a state to threaten a private business operating nation and worldwide on behalf of a lobby organization that has a very strong fetish for firearms.


Normally people would get thrown in prison for that kind of sleaze. Or shot.

vapilot2004
3rd Mar 2018, 10:19
tdracer
I always thought one of Americans greatest attributes was that of being able to compromise. It seems to being lost in this new age.


Regards
Mr Mac

:ok:

It is difficult to compromise when both sides refuse to even sit at the same table and talk. For much of the voting public, that table is often amongst the like-minded, so few new lessons are exchanged.

My take on the American cancer:
In this new age, consumers of mass media can choose their lens with which to view the world, and for far too many, their lens of choice, like many lenses, is imperfect, distorted. With little variation of POV to orient and calibrate, the lack of understanding fosters the creation of "partisan blinders".

I believe, for many Americans, there is much more we share in common than we have in contrast with one another. Partisanship and poisoned-well politics have been given a huge boost with the ill wind that brought us Trump, a wind that began with George W. Bush, and grew stronger during Obama's term.

There needs to be a reset, but with both sides yelling and neither listening, I don't see how it can happen without a 9/11 moment. That moment, however, if it comes again, will require the people in power to unite us rather than further divide us.

b1lanc
3rd Mar 2018, 14:35
There needs to be a reset, but with both sides yelling and neither listening, I don't see how it can happen without a 9/11 moment. That moment, however, if it comes again, will require the people in power to unite us rather than further divide us.
Even the reset from 9/11 was temporary. I worked in DC those years and the acrimony between political parties was incredible once the rubble had been cleared and initial congressional investigations finished up. As you commented, most people have more in common than not and that is quite evident in the everyday workplace. But there are truly 50 states and DC each with their own piddling little legislators that prefer the power of the office over solutions to real issues. The defining moment for me was a stop at the Capitol with our Scout Troop on the way to National Jamboree. From the balcony, we watched a single representative at the mic blasting away on some subject. There was not another single representative or staffer in attendance - it was all for the camera and face time. Watched it on CSPAN later and I'm surprised there weren't canned laughter, clapping, or boos emnating from the House. That defines the very lenses through which people glued to their media devices now see everything - filtered, twisted, and dishonest.

galaxy flyer
3rd Mar 2018, 16:10
B1anc & Vapilot2004,

Well said on the state of politics. It goes back a lot further than GWB, though. Nixon’s forced resignation was the last time we worked together as a nation and that wasn’t a cakewalk. Reagan’s strength was his ability, like it or not, to speak over Congress and force compromises by going to the public. Tax Reform of 1986 was the last time that worked.

GF

Lonewolf_50
3rd Mar 2018, 17:25
Compton, it is more likely that you are wrong. (Using feet and inches didn't stop us from reaching the moon). I spent an entire aviation career navigating in nautical miles. Feet and inches, bud. :p
Have you ever done any self reflection? (Betting the under on that).
From your location, I find your critique risible given the cultural train wreck you left in the Western Hemisphere over the course of three centuries. (But maybe you are an expat who can't stand the weather in the UK).

Highway1
5th Mar 2018, 15:21
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at the next Board meeting of Delta where they discuss losing a $50 million tax break over a discount deal with the NRA that was only ever used 13 times.. :E

Mr Mac
5th Mar 2018, 15:42
Lonewolf50
Von Braun amongst others, would have been metric men originally, and they did aid you in getting there, just a little.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

PDR1
5th Mar 2018, 15:55
Well NASA and JPL have essentially been Metric organisations for decades, but as incidents like the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter in 1999, the jurassicly dogmatic adherance to inferial units by some parts of the US aerospace industry is likely to continue to waste US taxpayer dollars and risk astronaut lives for some time to come.

PDR

meadowrun
5th Mar 2018, 17:20
Prez Don thinks that dependence on foreign measurement systems is not in the interests of American national security and stands by the American worker and their use of the good ole Imperial system.

DaveReidUK
5th Mar 2018, 17:47
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall at the next Board meeting of Delta where they discuss losing a $50 million tax break over a discount deal with the NRA that was only ever used 13 times..

I don't think you'd learn much.

They cancelled the NRA deal for the same reason that they set it up originally - it was good marketing at the time.

Highway1
5th Mar 2018, 18:17
I don't think you'd learn much.

They cancelled the NRA deal for the same reason that they set it up originally - it was good marketing at the time.


I dont think they expected to lose $50 million when they set it up though. Perhaps they are expecting $50 million of extra business now that they have shown how virtuous they are.

Although tbh, in my experience virtuous isnt anything I would normally associate an airline with.

racedo
5th Mar 2018, 19:31
I don't think you'd learn much.

They cancelled the NRA deal for the same reason that they set it up originally - it was good marketing at the time.

Well if setting up a deal and its only ever used 13 times then shows you overpaying marketing dept.

Frankly better off for Delta to STFU and say nothing.

meadowrun
5th Mar 2018, 20:00
better off for Delta to STFU and say nothing$50mil is peanuts to an airline, especially a v.big one.
It is now imprinted in a sizeable number of disposable income type brains that Delta stood up to the (try as they might, not so respectable) NRA and they like that. How many +++$$$ will that be worth compared to what the 1.5% of the population who are NRA members might withdraw?

Highway1
5th Mar 2018, 21:33
$50mil is peanuts to an airline, especially a v.big one.
It is now imprinted in a sizeable number of disposable income type brains that Delta stood up to the (try as they might, not so respectable) NRA and they like that. How many +++$$$ will that be worth compared to what the 1.5% of the population who are NRA members might withdraw?


Are there that many potential customers who would choose Delta only if they didn't give discount to NRA members? - I doubt that. Most people now days simply go onto comparison websites and look at the bottom line when they book a flight.

Ticket price trumps virtue signalling anytime.

tdracer
5th Mar 2018, 21:40
$50mil is peanuts to an airline, especially a v.big one.
It is now imprinted in a sizeable number of disposable income type brains that Delta stood up to the (try as they might, not so respectable) NRA and they like that. How many +++$$$ will that be worth compared to what the 1.5% of the population who are NRA members might withdraw?
While most of the population does not belong to the NRA, roughly half the population sympathizes with it's efforts to protect their 2nd amendment rights, and many of them are now working to boycott Delta and United. I seriously doubt they will realize an increase in business due to actions regarding the NRA, in fact I'd bet good money that it will be a net loss regardless of what happens with any tax breaks.

As I posted before, it is very poor business practice to make political based moves as they tend to piss off half your potential customer base. Racedo is absolutely right - they should have STFU.

racedo
5th Mar 2018, 22:43
$50mil is peanuts to an airline, especially a v.big one.
It is now imprinted in a sizeable number of disposable income type brains that Delta stood up to the (try as they might, not so respectable) NRA and they like that. How many +++$$$ will that be worth compared to what the 1.5% of the population who are NRA members might withdraw?


No its not, these are the same Hollyweird types who lecture everybody on discrimination and exploitation and happily put their asses in the air to be screwed over so they could get the next part above someone else.

aerobelly
5th Mar 2018, 22:56
Prez Don thinks that dependence on foreign measurement systems is not in the interests of American national security and stands by the American worker and their use of the good ole Imperial system.

Oh, that system of measurement based on the shoe size of the King of England? Or Queen, but I don't know if the measurements changed when Mary & her half-sister Elizabeth were on the throne.

In a period of trying to understand USA measurement systems I did find that there were two conversion factors from SI metric used by different industries. Didn't differ by much for small measurements, but by quite a lot over the size of, say, a large factory or chemical plant. That's what our design software was aimed at, working internally in metric. Oops.


'a

meadowrun
6th Mar 2018, 00:56
No its not, these are the same Hollyweird types who lecture everybody
Sure, those. And a growing parental backlash from John and Mary now increasingly more worried that little Janie will get shot up in her third grade class by Morty, the eleventh grade whackjob.


In truth this particular bubble of backlash of concern may soon pop. But it will come back with increased vigour come the next shooting. Will there be more school kids slaughtered by an AR15 in the hands of a disaffected, moronic teenager? You bet your little Nellie there will.
School shootings are well on their way to becoming part of the National Cultural Heritage, a tradition protected by the nra.
Isn't that precious?

vapilot2004
6th Mar 2018, 21:16
At the core of it, the GOP/NRA's tired excuse of, "now is not the time to talk about guns" (while the bodies are still being buried and the national attention has been peaked) was preempted by the kids, the victims, standing up and saying, "Enough!, now is exactly the right time".

Fat heads out of the proverbial ground, a ready made, actual target (for a change) appeared and a national backlash swelled, unlike any seen before. With the lack of any new, meaningful arguments for cover, the NRA and their GOP supporters got popped right in their noggins and Delta, alongside other high-profile corporations, were caught in the ensuing crossfire, thanks mostly to having their covers blown by national media.

GOP/NRA's M.O. of laying low after a massacre worked for decades, but those brave kids forced the cowardly to face reality and Delta paid for their questionable decision in supporting such a nationally controversial group in the first place. Had Delta demonstrated better wisdom, they would not be under the unflattering beams of the national spotlight now, with clear targets painted on their foreheads from both sides.

West Coast
7th Mar 2018, 03:29
GOP/NRA's M.O. of laying low

Laying low you say, increasing membership I say.

NRA and Gun Rights Groups See Membership Spike After Florida | Time (http://time.com/5176471/national-rifle-association-membership-florida-shooting/)

megan
7th Mar 2018, 05:43
Well NASA and JPL have essentially been Metric organisations for decades, but as incidents like the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter in 1999, the jurassicly dogmatic adherance to inferial units by some parts of the US aerospace industry is likely to continue to waste US taxpayer dollars and risk astronaut lives for some time to comeRaises a question. Aviation industry that I'm familiar with uses Imperial (US built aircraft), so what are Eurpoean aircraft, Imperial or Metric?

DaveReidUK
7th Mar 2018, 07:45
Aviation industry that I'm familiar with uses Imperial (US built aircraft), so what are Eurpoean aircraft, Imperial or Metric?

When Concorde was being designed and built, the drawings and parts that originated in the UK were imperial and those from France were metric.

There are probably sheds at Bristol and Toulouse full of bits that didn't fit together properly.

obgraham
7th Mar 2018, 08:09
VAP, here’s a thought:

Instead of just whining about like a bunch of little girls who didn’t get the right Barbie doll, why don’t you and your gunophobics get on with things? Organize yourselves with a clear agenda, propose a revocation of the 2nd amendment, push it through Congress and get all the necessary states to ratify it. If, as you say, “ordinary people are in favor of sensible gun laws” (whatever that means), stand up for your beliefs, and campaign such that your wishes become the law of the land. The mechanism is there. Sieze it!

But no, I suspect that it is more satisfying to simply demonize those who don’t agree with your views. Especially when you can fall back on the “save the children” approach which we can see over and over in places like this.

vapilot2004
7th Mar 2018, 10:05
No one is talking about rescinding the amendment. More like properly applying it to modern life, as we must do with our beloved bit of parchment from time to time.

Sensible. As in guns for sport, not zombies and crowds. If a nation of Australians can manage it, we should too. If anything, we're lacking the bullocks from both sides. One side, to accept guns as part of our society, the other, to not be afraid to accept limits on lethality and number and be accountable.

Speaking of thoughts, taking the argument to name calling is amateur hour, OBG and that's part of why we have a _____ problem in this country. Too much carping, and not enough listening.

obgraham
7th Mar 2018, 13:21
No one is talking about rescinding the amendment. More like properly applying it to modern life, as we must do with our beloved bit of parchment from time to time.
Then get on with it, and put the changes you would like out for debate. We all know it will require an amendment. If you can’t be bothered to defend your proposal in the public forum, I submit it is no proposal at all.

meadowrun
7th Mar 2018, 14:47
Think you're past that particular tipping point.
I don't think bearing arms aficionados will pay too much attention to any legislative changes related to this matter. It's a secondary religion. And they have guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORYVCML8xeE

radeng
7th Mar 2018, 16:29
Isn't it a case of Pandora's box having been opened a long time ago, and there are a lot of guns in circulation? That severely limits the effectiveness of introducing gun control, especially if you don't have register of everybody who has a handgun.. Despite the ban on people legally owning hand guns here, we still get a lot of shootings......I was told by a retired very senior policeman that his rural county had over 220,000 legally owned weapons and that in seven years, not one had been used for criminal purposes...