MoD contracts industry to draft recognition manual for RAF P8 aircrew

[Sun Who]

The MoD, in the form of DE&S has put out to tender, via FATS 5, a contract to draft a brand new Visual Recognition manual for ships and aircraft, for the use of RAF P8 aircrew when attending Fleet Replacement Squadron in the US.

Surely an RAF core task?

Sun.

[India Four Two]

What’s wrong with the USN manual?

Not Invented Here?

[Lima Juliet]

Not seeing many windows...:}

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8717840.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/US-Navy-P-8A-Poseidon.jpg

[MG]

Apart from the large ones in front of the engines, not to mention the EO/IR turret

[MFC_Fly]

What a waste of money! Recce has always been handled very adequately in house over the previous decades, so why pay extra for some company to do it?

[Sun Who]

Surely thete’s An extant RAF doc from Nimrod days they could GFX and use as a starting point? Seems a bit odd to want to create something from nothing..?

[Rossian]

....was always splendidly covered by the master AEOp recce instructor on the Nimrod OCU.
A small dit - out in the straits west of Gib in yet another NATO ex cruising around doing surface surv and reporting.
An F18 poles up along side our stbd wingtip and hangs there close in. Reports to his opcon (and ours) "it's like an airliner, kinda concrete coloured with pink and blue roundels and kinda pods on the wingtips and a big one on top of the fin Is it a hostile?
Me "opcon will you please recall this idiot on my wingtip and get someone in the ready room to teach him some recognition of his friendlies in this ex. Listen son, marks out of ten for a/c recce? - not very many, now GO AWAY and stop getting in our way".
Whoosh and he was gone.
The chaps on our flight deck thought I was being a bit harsh. But what if we'd been in the gulf and he was armed?? I'd take a small bet that a similar scenario occurred from time to time in GW1 and 2.

The Ancient Mariner

[Heathrow Harry]

What’s wrong with the USN manual?

Not Invented Here?


BAe could only charge £ 1mm for xeroxing it - this way they can spend 5 years and well over £ 250mm................

plus of course there will be a hierarchy of committees, coordinators, specialists etc etc in the Mod who need the work

[Crromwellman]

Here we go again re-inventing the wheel. Back in the bad old Cold War days the PI (now Int) Branch had a recognition materials cell at JARIC (now long gone). They used to produce cards and books on a comprehensive range of land, sea and air equipments that were available for free to users. The maritime ones included pictures of ships and submarines from all angles, including above. Some of these survive in the Medmenham archive at Wyton. Note top self: do we offer these documents for free to the new generation of P8 crews or flog them at large cost to the approved MoD contractor? Why don't some people ask around before putting out a tender?

[esscee]

Sums up the state of MOD at present, pathetic.

[oldmansquipper]

Folks, please don't confuse politicos and treasury bean counters with people who actually give a sh*t.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

....was always splendidly covered by the master AEOp recce instructor on the Nimrod OCU.
A small dit - out in the straits west of Gib in yet another NATO ex cruising around doing surface surv and reporting.
An F18 poles up along side our stbd wingtip and hangs there close in. Reports to his opcon (and ours) "it's like an airliner, kinda concrete coloured with pink and blue roundels and kinda pods on the wingtips and a big one on top of the fin Is it a hostile?
Me "opcon will you please recall this idiot on my wingtip and get someone in the ready room to teach him some recognition of his friendlies in this ex. Listen son, marks out of ten for a/c recce? - not very many, now GO AWAY and stop getting in our way".
Whoosh and he was gone.
The chaps on our flight deck thought I was being a bit harsh. But what if we'd been in the gulf and he was armed?? I'd take a small bet that a similar scenario occurred from time to time in GW1 and 2.

The Ancient Mariner

You can't argue with his description though. Shame it wasn't the brown one!

[downsizer]

What happened to the DRJs?

[SWBKCB]

Can't you get those handy little "Observer" books anymore?

[Patrob1237]

I'm with AM on this. Perhaps we should attempt to prise Eddie Pratt out of retirement, although I suspect that some of his top tip recce features ( the Hormone helicopter springs to mind) would not pass muster with the PC brigade, especially Stateside.

As an aside, if the primary role of the AEO on the Nimrod was to keep the sun off the Tac Screen, does that still apply to the P8, which does appear to have fewer windows :rolleyes:

[Sideshow Bob]

How much money have they got? I've probably got a book in the loft I could sell them.

[Shackman]

I have a few books in the loft, plus the notes from 50 hours of recce ground school at MOTU (although I suspect there isn't much call to recognise a Sverdlov these days!)

[Pontius Navigator]

Just got rid of my set of mini Jane's and Warships of the Soviet Navy, all amended and up to the date I ceased to have an interest.

Back in the 50s I had a Merchant ship equivalent of Jane's by Lt Cdr Talbot-Booth. An amazing book. Enter with the mast configuration and you could drill down to the name even. Of course it needed regular updating with post war building.

[Saintsman]

It may well have been done in-house in the days of the Nimrod, but do we still have the people capable to produce an up to date version?

Numbers are not what they used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the relevant info has been binned.

[Rossian]

....it would seem that it no longer exists - when did it vanish? It used to cover a/c, ships (inc subs) and armoured vehicles.

The Ancient Mariner

[Two's in]

I'd ask why we still don't have 30 minutes of recognition after the met brief any more, but then somebody might tell me the terrible truth about the daily met briefs...

[BEagle]

I still have a copy of the first ever inter-service Aircraft Recognition journal, dated September 1942, which has survived despite being printed on low-quality wartime paper. It was saved from being consigned to a skip when the Brize Education section had a clear out.... The messages from VSOs on the inside front cover emphasise the importance of aircraft recognition unequivocally.

On pp6-7 there is an article on the Focke-Wulf Fw 190A3. Interestingly, it is factual and free of any propaganda.

The centre spread features the 'fastest and most formidable aeroplane of its type in the world' - the Avro Lancaster. Even though the journal was unclassified, it stated that the 'maximum bomb load of 15,800 lb can be carried for more than 1,000 miles'. Perhaps the spooks hoped that this would be passed into enemy hands, so that they knew what was about to come their way?

JARIC recce guides could be....variable in quality. The one they produced for the South Atlantic included the Catalina (Canso, actually). The last one had been retired 12 years before the South Atlantic war, but the JARIC guide showed one....in WW2 RAF markings!

[Brain Potter]

Ship recognition for P8 crews

Shall we start with the NOSMO KING ?

[DANbudgieman]

Apart from a dead tree publication I trust that the same information shall be available onboard the P8 on a software format?

[cynicalint]

Beagle,
an alternative view would be thoroughness. The guides could have been used by hooligans on the ground, who may have found the guides useful.

[[email protected]]

Don't we have an Air Warfare Centre at Waddo who do this sort of thing?

[Heathrow Harry]

"The guides could have been used by hooligans on the ground, who may have found the guides useful."

In what way? what could be in a guide that isn't widely available on the web???

[Pontius Navigator]

I once had a full set of silhouette recognition cards including Japanese. No idea what became of them.

[Pontius Navigator]

The South Atlantic recce brings to mind the post-Libyan deployment. 29 Sqn was deployed to defend Gibraltar in case of Libyan retaliation. Libyan orbat was no problem but the Sqn asked quite reasonably, how do we recognise Libyan Mirages?

Reasonable question, apart from a missile launch, what were the markings?

[Misformonkey]

It may well have been done in-house in the days of the Nimrod, but do we still have the people capable to produce an up to date version?

Numbers are not what they used to be and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the relevant info has been binned.

That’s probably the reason, or at least a good stab at why MoD has contracted it out. DE&S doesn’t work in isolation when delivering equipment programmes and MoD ensures teams have relevant serving SMEs embedded within the teams.
With shrinking forces means loss of capabilities, this could well be one of them.

[JT Eagle]

I hope they do a better job than the U.S. Army: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a19731/armys-aircraft-recognition-guide-doesnt-know-planes/

https://warisboring.com/the-u-s-armys-warplane-recognition-guide-is-hilariously-wrong/

I could do a better job (no really, for under a million as well).

JT

[Easy Street]

Would anyone be surprised if the contractor somehow acquires the intellectual property rights for all the material it's presumably about to be given from the MOD archives, and thereby denies the MOD the ability easily to regenerate the capability in-house or with another provider in future? Years ago I wrote a training package for a new piece of equipment and delivered the first few rounds of training as an associated duty to my primary role, and it all went very well. I'm sure today the MOD would pay some contractor an enormous sum for the privilege of it having a company name on the front slide, a slavish adherence to the systems approach making the package 10 times longer than necessary, and no further control over the contents...

[cynicalint]

Heathrow Harry,
today you are correct about the use of the web, but in 1982 it was still a twinkle in Berners-lee's eye!

[Herod]

Surely the helicopter force still have identification manuals, as presumably do the RN? If they need to be in digital form, less than £ 100 will buy a decent scanner.

[MightyGem]

teach him some recognition of his friendlies in this ex. Listen son, marks out of ten for a/c recce? - not very many
Much the same was said about a US soldier/Marine who fired on an RAF Chinook in GW1. I believe the crew landed and gave him a good talking to.

[Hoots]

Folks there’s a lot of ill informed nonsense on here, things have moved on from the good old days, we don’t have as many blue suits or civil servants so trust me when I say all other options were explored. I will say no more on the topic.

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember at my daughter's Grad 18 years ago the inspecting officer, even then, saying that grey suits was the future. Chosen wisely, you get the subject matter expert freed from all the bull**** of fitness tests, secondary duties, last minute programme changes, dining in nights, etc.

Of course you rip the social life out of the station, remove flexibility in manning, and having people available to push trucks up hills or fight fires.

[Heathrow Harry]

"there’s a lot of ill informed nonsense on here"

Care to give us an informed estimate of cost and time????

[Melchett01]

I can only describe whomever signed that one off as, to quote a delightful phrase I heard recently, ‘a complete cockwomble’ and should be held accountable.

We’re short on cash and have our own department that amongst other things specialises in recognition - it’s called the Intelligence Branch. And guess what, we even have a training school that writes recognition guides and teaches it. And I’d wager that the experienced J2 you’d need to develop the Mission Support capability will be of an era where they were taught this sort of stuff themselves. Hell, even I can remember maritime recce from my sqn days: MASH - Mast - Armaments - Superstructure - Hull. And I’ve still got the notes and PPoint brief somewhere in the loft. That’ll be £150 and a GEMS award please, and spend the money you’ve saved on a copy of Janes.

Unbelievable. I’ve often asked where all the money goes and why we’re broke. I’m starting to see exactly why.

[Doctor Cruces]

You all miss the point.

The mission of the current Government is to give away as much cash to its' mates as possible, as quickly as it can.

[MFC_Fly]

I can only describe whomever signed that one off as, to quote a delightful phrase I heard recently, ‘a complete cockwomble’ and should be held accountable.

Probably need look no further than post #36 :hmm:

[BEagle]

Where did the money go? Well, up to £4.2 billion on the Annington Homes business for one thing.

An example (from The Grauniad):

On at least one occasion, the MoD has even had to buy land straight back from Annington for more housing. From 2001, the MoD had handed over various parcels of land at RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire.

Annington secured planning consent to redevelop the land for private housing, before the MoD decided that it wanted to buy some of it back.

In 2014, the MoD paid Annington more than £28m to buy back a site at Brize Norton that included 194 houses. This means the MoD has paid about £145,000 per house for properties sold off for an average of £28,000 in the original 1996 deal.

:hmm:

[gijoe]

Ask 8 sqn - some people in that organisation think that they should have picked up the MPA role...