Management Vacancy vs Training Ban

[Hydrolix]

I understand the training ban extends to accepting management positions. However, the management position WILL get filled no matter what, in this case it is likely to be a non-member or someone willing to circumvent said ban. My question is, would it not be better for the AOA to recommend a handful of individuals from the union to apply for this (and possibly subsequent) position/s? By only having non-members and ban breakers on the third floor, are we sort of kicking an own goal?

I must add, one would have to get their head read to want to work upstairs...

[Dragon69]

Let me get this straight, you want the union, an organisation that's supposed to protect the CoS of its pilot body, to nominate a swell individual to take up a management position, where their only purpose is to screw the pilot body. Make sense. :rolleyes:

[Hydrolix]

Dragon, thanks for the reply. It’s not the DFO or CEO it’s only DFTM so as for the sole purpose of screwing the pilots, not so sure - plenty of training reports to sign off. Also, is there a possibility of better the devil you know?

Rod, thanks for the insight, I’m not sure how my post affects my abilities as a pilot but thanks for the reply anyway.

[Brokeidiot]

Hydrolix, no I disagree completely your same argument can be made about training positions... yes the training ban does hurt us but it hurts them more and if we give even in the slightest we are giving up all leverage as all the guys holding the line and waiting for training will prob say f$&@ it.

[Dragon69]

Hydrolix

Not sure how long you've been at cx, judging by your post I would guess not very long, so I'll pass on a simple, but important piece of advice, that was given to me a long time ago.

ONLY SCUMS AND SELF SERVING YES MEN JOIN THE THIRD FLOOR, TRUST THEM AT YOUR PERIL.

[OK4Wire]

Dragon: that's almost word for word what I was told some 20+ years ago too. Even then (at the back end of the "good ol' days") it was clear who was who.

[Hydrolix]

Whilst leaving my original post unedited to generate discussion, I’m obviously seriously off base with my thoughts. I wholeheartedly recant the idea and wish no further ill will from my comments. Regards all

[Tea time]

Hydrolix , one of the requirements to get to the 3rd floor is that you have a funny handshake , this gem was given to me many years ago by a very senior captain . I don’t know how true it is and I know of a few really great guys that used to be in management , sadly they were railroaded and chopped on the flimsiest excuse .
Why anyone would want to work up there is beyond me , quite frankly anyone who puts their name forward needs educating behind the barn .

[betpump5]

SCUM is far too nice a 4-letter word for those on the third floor or contemplating a position there.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

This is a work-around. Management positions are not part of the training ban but managers are expected to become trainers as part of their post. They become trainers and remain in the AOA. F***ing wake up!

[Flex88]

Qualification must be Senior FO or above ?? That's discrimination. What's wrong with SO's and why aren't they invited to apply ?

I mean, do you not think this is hypocritical seeing our Leader, the DFO, and the Director of Personnel (overseeing 15 > 20000 persons) had basically ZERO experience in their relative fields and brought with them ZERO educational background in their relevant "Leadership" positions.

I mean, what difference does experience now make? They should open the positions up to everyone, it's only fair.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

would a senior FO really want to join the 3rd, makes his life twice as hard it would seem

[Flex88]

The whole things a sad and cruel joke. DFO and D People get brought in from nowhere with no background whatsoever and now suddenly they want a modicum of experience ?? What for? What was the background of the person who gambled away billions (US) on fuel hedging ? Maybe he/she came from Swire Restaurants.
Why would they want anyone with extensive experience, who is in charge of the entire training apparatus now, did they bring a background of in depth knowledge and experience gained in instruction ??
Of course not.

The whole management (leadership) structure here is beyond embarrassing, a sick joke.

Laugh or cry, your choice.

[Vtwin]

Whilst leaving my original post unedited to generate discussion, I’m obviously seriously off base with my thoughts. I wholeheartedly recant the idea and wish no further ill will from my comments. Regards all

Hydrolix for DFTM! It'd be nice to have a man like him up there who can admit he is wrong with this level of class, take ownership and not place blame where it does not belong, on his fellow pilot.
Even while (whilst=not cool) they gore him for outside the box thinking, which is a great quality rarely found in that position and much needed since he would be working under Cannot.

[Trafalgar]

Hydrolix. Respect. :ok:

[VR-HFX]

Meantime, back at the departure gate, the line grows ever longer. Still one a day and accelerating next month. On track for a 15% EBIT (Exit before it tanks) in 2018.:D

[plainpilot11]

I wonder if when it tanks and there is no job left here if they’ll still require three months pay even if we are locked out.

[cxorcist]

Meantime, back at the departure gate, the line grows ever longer. Still one a day and accelerating next month. On track for a 15% EBIT (Exit before it tanks) in 2018.:D

These are nothing more than alternative facts and inconvenient truths. Meanwhile, AT wants to resume concessionary talks, and DP complains about US healthcare costs and long service leave in Australia. Obtuse much?

The Company has rapidly returned to profitability, and the HKAOA is just damn lucky (or unbelievably good to know) that CX didn’t (wouldn’t) agree to their enormous concessions.

To me, it’s time to start pushing for a proper set of RPs, ARAPA, and inflationary adjustments to pay and HKPA. No more crying wolf, Anna. We simply don’t believe you or any of your ilk. Time to rotate in another lying beancounter, but don’t forget to update the playbook before you leave.

[Trafalgar]

Funny how the US carriers seem to function just fine, paying their pilots far more, with health care (and retirement health care), pensions and free staff travel (should I mention proper rostering and bidding rules?). I guess the simple answer is they seem to have management who know what they are doing, unlike our feckless lot of Swire losers. We are a cursed company, and the end is approaching. If you can get out, get out while there is a hiring boom around the world to take advantage of. Don't be the last one on the new seniority list. CX is finished. (and as for AT's 'concessionary' talks... makes me think of something regarding 'where the sun doesn't shine').

[Freehills]

True! United yield is now 40% higher than CX. (14c/mile vs CX 10.5)

Getting passengers to pay much more for a worse product is a trick we need to learn. The US airlines have succeeded in charging for just about every basic, whereas we still offer meals/ bags/ choice of seat in one price

vs 2013, United yield dropped 7%, CX 25%.

[Flex88]

Funny how the US carriers seem to function just fine, paying their pilots far more, with health care (and retirement health care), pensions and free staff travel (should I mention proper rostering and bidding rules?). I guess the simple answer is they seem to have management who know what they are doing, unlike our feckless lot of Swire losers. We are a cursed company, and the end is approaching. If you can get out, get out while there is a hiring boom around the world to take advantage of. Don't be the last one on the new seniority list. CX is finished. (and as for AT's 'concessionary' talks... makes me think of something regarding 'where the sun doesn't shine').
US Carriers haven’t spent 30 years starting LLC’s (HAECO, HAESL, HAS, CX Catering, Swire Hotels, etc. etc.) for one primary purpose - to suck profit out of a massively profitable company only to be followed by blambing someone else for thier woes. I’ll leave the english masters out there to list the possible synonyms for the word “suck”.
Oh, and don’t mention the word “hedge”

[Trafalgar]

Effectively, CX is one big con-game, with the employees the ultimate losers. Once they realised they could strip the profit out of CX with skimming contracts from their subsidiaries, they effectively destroyed any chance of a reasonable profit sharing bonus ever being paid again. They love to quote in their hiring literature that there is 'profit sharing' and 'annual bonus', 'medical', 'loss of license', 'staff travel', but in nearly every case, it is all illusion. They even now are attempting to strip away our 15.5% provident fund, housing and leave. Quite remarkably, CX management seem to think this is reasonable, in spite of nearly all the worlds major carriers actually improving all of those aspects of their pilots packages. It's like living in some other-world twilight zone where up is down and left is right. You couldn't make up a sitcom that was as crazy as the reality that is CX today. If you have ANY other employment opportunity, for the sake of you and your families, get away from CX and HK as quick as you can. This is the best opportunity in the past 30 years to establish a career at a carrier that will respect and reward you. That will NEVER happen again at CX. The company, and it's management are toxic. Get out while you still can.

[Freehills]

To be fair, they (US airlines) pretty much all did go bankrupt in the last 15 years and restart with clean sheets (SWA as exception)

[Trafalgar]

...it would be nice if we could start with a clean sheet. Even with CMP, which would have made sense to have started as a 'clean sheet', they are of course corrupting it with their usual myopic Swire tendencies. This airline is doomed.

[Flex88]

To be fair, they (US airlines) pretty much all did go bankrupt in the last 15 years and restart with clean sheets (SWA as exception)

Step back and take another good look, the same exact thing is happening here only it's on purpose and in slow motion...

Exactly what they're after don't you know :ok::ok:

[DropKnee]

US Carriers haven’t spent 30 years starting LLC’s (HAECO, HAESL, HAS, CX Catering, Swire Hotels, etc. etc.) for one primary purpose - to suck profit out of a massively profitable company only to be followed by blambing someone else for thier woes. I’ll leave the english masters out there to list the possible synonyms for the word “suck”.
Oh, and don’t mention the word “hedge”
Don be fooled. The US carries have tried all the above. UA at one time owned Hilton, Budget and The airline. They tried TED, Shuttle by United etc. What they learned is that it all failed. Which makes what CX is doing all the more insane. years ago. It didn’t work then, will not work now. You have to keep a eye on your core product. Keep your employees happy. Stop making very bad choices. The profits will flow.

[cxorcist]

Don be fooled. The US carries have tried all the above. UA at one time owned Hilton, Budget and The airline. They tried TED, Shuttle by United etc. What they learned is that it all failed. Which makes what CX is doing all the more insane. years ago. It didn’t work then, will not work now. You have to keep a eye on your core product. Keep your employees happy. Stop making very bad choices. The profits will flow.

No, no, no!!! You’ve got it all wrong. You cut, cut, cut the product into oblivion and your employees until they bleed to death. That way, the quarterly spreadsheet looks good and the big bonuses flow. Then, the airline will truly thrive... Why didn’t I think of that? So original and historically effective. Idiots!!!

[Sorry Dog]

To be fair, they (US airlines) pretty much all did go bankrupt in the last 15 years and restart with clean sheets (SWA as exception)

Not exactly. In Chapter 11 reorganization, there is usually some sort of plan to make payments to creditors in the future or future equity may be traded for write downs of debt.

I think this article from Bloomberg in 2009 show some of what I'm talking about. It's a borderline puff piece, but it also shows a good comparison of Delta before and after BK as well as a good contrast to CX management.

Most of the article is behind a paywall so I'm pasting it here
Delta Air Lines (DAL) plunged into bankruptcy in September 2005, marking the culmination of more than a decade of management missteps made largely out of hubris. The Southeastern airline allowed itself to go through many of the stages of decline outlined in Jim Collins' new book. Its sense of infallibility helped foster an undisciplined pursuit of practically every new jumbo jet that aircraft manufacturers rolled out, forcing it to fly large planes even on one-hour routes. Add to that a distinct denial of the increasingly grim realities of the airline business, exemplified by the errors made earlier this decade by then-Chief Executive Leo F. Mullin. He launched the trendy Song discount airline, which fizzled amid high costs and stiff competition from JetBlue Airways (JBLU). Worse, Mullin negotiated a 2001 labor deal that paid top pilots a record-shattering $300,000 a year. "Management always had to have the biggest and the best," recalls a former exec. "It was the Delta way."
That strategy helped the Atlanta-based carrier rack up billions in losses, pushing it into bankruptcy. And management was so slow to accept its humbling fate that one bankruptcy judge told executives: "I have not heard anything that I will say remotely impressed me that you have the money, the talent, or the thought that you could successfully reorganize in this case." Admits President Ed H. Bastian: "There were periods when Delta could have been just 24 hours from disappearing. If the pilots had walked out, I'm not sure we could have pulled through."
Less than four years after it was left on life support, Delta is now the picture of health. Thanks to a management overhaul, a rigorous shift towards more profitable international routes, aggressive cost-cutting, and a shrewdly timed merger with Northwest Airlines, Delta is now viewed by many analysts as the country's top-performing major carrier. It boasts the strongest balance sheet, the best route structure, and the best prospects for future profitability. "They transformed the company amazingly well," says longtime critic Roger E. King, an analyst for CreditSights, a New York-based institutional research firm.
It was a hard-won battle to reverse the downward spiral. In 2004, with cash running low and most assets hocked, Delta struggled for many weeks to find the debtor-in-possession financing to keep operating. It also came within 24 hours of failing to avert a pilots' strike. The carrier had to fight hedge fund managers pushing for a sale or breakup, then a hostile bid from US Airways (LCC).
GETTING ON COURSE

What put Delta on the path to recovery and renewal was a willingness on the part of management and employees alike to make sacrifices. Gerald Grinstein, a director who had stepped in as CEO in early 2004, convinced the pilots to swallow deep pay cuts while reducing his own salary by 25%. (For good measure, he later donated his bonus to a scholarship fund for the children of employees.) Together with Bastian, he convinced a key group of creditors—suppliers including Boeing (BA), Pratt & Whitney (UTX), and Coca-Cola (KO)—that they'd lose big under a merger with US Airways, which flew mostly Airbus planes using General Electric (GE) engines. And Bastian persuaded creditors to accept Delta's plan over US Airways' takeover bid, which was more dependent on outside financing. "They took the bird in hand," he recalls.
But simply warding off failure wasn't enough. After the bankruptcy, Delta spent millions to rebuild morale, flying in many of its 47,000 employees for a series of events that were equal parts team-building and tent revival. And Delta convinced creditors to cede 15% ownership to employees. "They saw the importance of having the pilots and employees on board to unlocking the synergies of the deal," says Delta CEO Richard H. Anderson, a board member at the time who got the top job in August 2007. "It was equally important for the employees to know that we followed through on everything we promised."
Delta recruited Glen W. Hauenstein from Alitalia to move the carrier into underserved markets such as Kiev, Ukraine; Tel Aviv; and Nice, France. Lacking the cash to buy enough long-haul jets, Hauenstein retrofitted existing planes with winglets—tips on wings that reduce drag and save fuel—to give them more range. The result: International routes now represent 38% of all Delta flights, vs. 20% in 2005.
But the masterstroke in Delta's rebirth was the merger that Anderson engineered with Northwest Airlines in 2008. The merger is not only expected to help Delta trim an additional $2 billion in costs, it has also married Northwest's strength in Asia with Delta's presence across Europe and Latin America. Wary of a culture clash, Anderson closed the deal in six months—about half the time of most airline mergers—and set up 27 internal committees to handle everything from fitting flight attendants for new uniforms to merging frequent-flier programs.
Everything was built around Delta's paternalistic culture. Anderson even changed the ID numbers on employee security badges to prevent people from figuring out whether a colleague hailed from the Delta or Northwest camps. What he didn't want, he says, was a situation where "employees were constantly sizing up which side you were on." And the pilots agreed to combine their two unions. Robert W. Mann, an airline industry consultant who advised Delta's pilots during the process, says, "It was the most rational, controversy-free process of this sort that I've ever been involved in."
While such moves have helped Delta minimize losses amid a down economy, Anderson remains acutely aware that failure is always close at hand. He flies in a Delta cockpit jump seat about once a month to pick the brains of pilots. And in a recent two-day stretch, he spoke to 2,000 employees to hear concerns and suggestions. For Delta to remain aloft, he argues, management needs to stay as grounded as possible.