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View Full Version : Network aircraft to be crewed by JQ pilots


Rated De
28th Feb 2018, 10:05
Given the global pilot shortage is demographic and structural it is taking a little time for the thick of head in HR/IR to understand that the salary package is nowhere near competitive for Network pilots.

Sparing no expense to keep pilot remuneration at odds with the market, a little bird whispered a story...



IR want the aircraft crewed as it will allegedly send a 'message'
Network have insufficient pilots
The show must go on.



So Perth based pilots may well find were they to introduce themselves to the Network pilots flying the A320 that they are NOT Network pilots, rather the other A320 operator's pilots.
If true an interesting development...


Must be contract season? :E

Icarus2001
28th Feb 2018, 10:59
Seems reasoanble to use Jetstar pilots with experience on the A320 to introduce the type.

The way Network has been recruiting lately would indicate that the F100 crews are too busy to be taken off line in any huge numbers to be type rated on the Airbus.

neville_nobody
28th Feb 2018, 11:47
CASA won't be letting that happen easily. Every AOC is a separate C & T organisation. They could use a secondment for a few years like QF did for Jetstar, but they won't be working for Jetstar and Network simultaneously.

PoppaJo
28th Feb 2018, 13:14
The aircraft is still registered to Jetstar.

Dont forget not long ago we had Tiger 737s on Virgin’s AOC being flown fly both Tiger and Virgin Pilots. Anything is possible!

framer
28th Feb 2018, 19:39
Anything is possible!
If you twist their arm far enough up their back.

dragon man
28th Feb 2018, 19:55
No worries, within 12 months the first graduated pilots from the Qantas college will be on the job. Problem solved.

ANCDU
28th Feb 2018, 20:01
This wouldn’t surprise me, the J* Perth base is very small and the flying has previously been crewed out of the East Coast bases when J* were doing rescource flying.
J* have a knack of closing small bases, I have a couple of friends that can clarify that!
Offer the guys there are transfer or a Network position if they want to stay...it’s the Qantas HR way with pilots, we are after all just a commodity these days.

ExtraShot
1st Mar 2018, 01:42
Have heard there’s More money on offer to fly the ‘bus now apparently?

Base Figures (not sure what they are exactly), apparently a little closer to the other 320 operators around the joint... (note: ‘a little closer’, not meaning ‘same as’ or ‘more than’!)

SpyderPig
1st Mar 2018, 03:13
Yeah but will they get white hats?

busdriver007
1st Mar 2018, 03:34
All the JQ A320/1 s will be owned by QF by the end of this Financial Year. So let me get this straight Aircraft owned by QF, flown by Jetstar in Network. Then we put brand new Commercial Pilots into this operation. Can't see a problem with that! :ugh:

busdriver007
1st Mar 2018, 03:38
Add to this the fact that all the potential candidates will be promised a Mainline Career and the best they will do is fly a Dash 8/B717/A320 if they are lucky on less than the Jetstar Pilots. Wow! where do I sign!

puff
6th Mar 2018, 10:19
The aircraft is still registered to Jetstar.

Dont forget not long ago we had Tiger 737s on Virgin’s AOC being flown fly both Tiger and Virgin Pilots. Anything is possible!

Not true - they were on Virgins AOC flying to DPS with VA pilots and TT CC, they also were for a while after DPS finished flying the TT network under the same arrangement. TT pilots never flew them when they were on the VA AOC.

cavemanzk
8th Mar 2018, 06:15
No different to QF Link (eastern) pilots flying the Q300s for JQ within New Zealand.

Sykes
8th Mar 2018, 06:42
In fact, EXACTLY THE SAME.

That is, Just like Eastern/Sunstate pilots who earned considerably more than their JQNZ colleagues, the Jetstar A320 pilots will earn considerably more than the Network pilots.

Nice one :yuk:

neville_nobody
8th Mar 2018, 06:47
No different to QF Link (eastern) pilots flying the Q300s for JQ within New Zealand.

Using which AOC?

cavemanzk
8th Mar 2018, 07:41
Using which AOC?

Easterns (All the JQ Q300s are technically still operated by EAA)

Keg
8th Mar 2018, 08:22
Sounds like a bum fight. JQ aeroplanes serviced by mainline engineers in PER, controlled by Network and operated by......? Lots of Swiss cheese there.

By the way, is there an agreement in place for mainline engineers to service Network controlled A320s? Nope. And that would require CASA approval and that will take some time to sort out as well. Just another small hole in the cheese.

neville_nobody
8th Mar 2018, 08:43
So you're saying it's a Qlink branded aircraft operated by Network under a Jetstar AOC?

What could possibly go wrong.......

Keg
8th Mar 2018, 09:04
You left out maintained by mainline! :eek: :} :ok:

neville_nobody
8th Mar 2018, 09:07
Makes Norwegian look overly uncomplicated!

These guys should be working in government bureaucracy not in the commercial sector with an arrangement like that!! Their talents are obviously being wasted

swh
8th Mar 2018, 14:25
The A320 was flown down from Seletar to PER on a JQ flight number.

For years Alliance and National Jet have been flying aircraft for Qantas and Qantaslink.

Network flight operated by Jetstar ?

wheels_down
8th Mar 2018, 21:20
Why didn’t they just get Jetstar to operate these flights? Could a LCC not bid for the contract? Surely they have a lower cost base resulting in a higher margin.

jetlikespeeds
8th Mar 2018, 21:51
In fact, EXACTLY THE SAME.

That is, Just like Eastern/Sunstate pilots who earned considerably more than their JQNZ colleagues, the Jetstar A320 pilots will earn considerably more than the Network pilots.

Nice one :yuk:

And in alot of cases in breach of their own eba conditions as they wanted to help the company out to get the operation started in NZ

Icarus2001
9th Mar 2018, 06:55
Why didn’t they just get Jetstar to operate these flights? Could a LCC not bid for the contract?

I would be willing to bet that the Network cost base is lower than Jetstar's. The Network A320 Captain rate is definitely lower.

There is more to this of course, look ahead to a Network base in Perth with 80-90% A320 aircraft and think about what they could do from there.

Rated De
9th Mar 2018, 07:00
I do however understand the frustration
demonstrated in some of the correspondence AIPA has received. I ask
for your patience as AIPA works through its industrial and legal
contingencies.

As emailed to me today, the Jetconnect move was mooted nearly a year ago, and the Network move was mentioned even on Pprune for a few months...

https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtb n%3AANd9GcSCPpS-kuHc4ibnWyww8y7LyygIy-jGxbQnthud28UwY-TssTugTA&sp=6700884734601699f8be41587cdbfc8e&anticache=991133

Sir Humphrey would be proud:rolleyes:

RealityCzech
10th Mar 2018, 07:52
As emailed to me today, the Jetconnect move was mooted nearly a year ago, and the Network move was mentioned even on Pprune for a few months...

https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtb n%3AANd9GcSCPpS-kuHc4ibnWyww8y7LyygIy-jGxbQnthud28UwY-TssTugTA&sp=6700884734601699f8be41587cdbfc8e&anticache=991133

Sir Humphrey would be proud:rolleyes:

What would you have done if you were AIPA president a few months ago? Looking forward to your detailed plan.

V-Jet
10th Mar 2018, 22:04
What would you have done if you were AIPA president a few months ago? Looking forward to your detailed plan.

I'm pretty confident they wouldn't discuss it with a millennial HR drone who possibly doesn't understand yet why aircraft need wings to fly.

Derfred
11th Mar 2018, 10:53
As emailed to me today, the Jetconnect move was mooted nearly a year ago, and the Network move was mentioned even on Pprune for a few months...


You keep talking as if AIPA was caught napping.

They way I see it, nothing could be further from the truth.

Surely you can recognise that the potential and inclination for such moves has long been recognised by AIPA, and which was indeed the basis of the industrial action and lockout several years ago.

“Qantas Aircraft, Qantas Pilot”

That the action was ultimately unsuccesful in it’s main aim was unfortunately the result of other unions joining the bandwagon with unrealistic claims and damaging action, forcing the Company’s hand.

AIPA’s campaign, on the other hand, was well thought out, and strategically designed to address precisely these kind of moves by the Company.

Your insinuation that AIPA is napping is untrue and unhelpful. Especially from the other side of the planet.

Lezzeno
11th Mar 2018, 21:50
AIPA’s campaign, on the other hand, was well thought out, and strategically designed to address precisely these kind of moves by the Company.


And ultimately failed!

RealityCzech
11th Mar 2018, 23:20
I'm pretty confident they wouldn't discuss it with a millennial HR drone who possibly doesn't understand yet why aircraft need wings to fly.

How convenient.

I actually asked a retrospective question - what would he have done differently? Not sure there’s any giant secrets involved in asking that. Let’s be honest - there is no magic plan that would’ve changed anything.

neville_nobody
12th Mar 2018, 01:10
Go on strike properly and stop pussy footing around?

Justin. Beaver
12th Mar 2018, 01:19
Go on strike properly and stop pussy footing around?

Yeah. That’ll work 🙄

neville_nobody
12th Mar 2018, 01:38
Since the Australian government has shown how pi$$ weak it is in standing up to corporate power the only logical industrial action left is to strike. Given that soft industrial action is met with such a over powering response by companies you might as well do it properly and shut down the airline and get the industrial upper hand rather than repeat the stupidity that occured last time around.

The pyschological barrier pilots have to get over is the fact that they actually care for the company more than the management. This was demonstrated in spades by the shutdown. The pilots took action which cost the company $0. The company's response cost millions

Justin. Beaver
12th Mar 2018, 03:14
Since the Australian government has shown how pi$$ weak it is in standing up to corporate power the only logical industrial action left is to strike. Given that soft industrial action is met with such a over powering response by companies you might as well do it properly and shut down the airline and get the industrial upper hand rather than repeat the stupidity that occured last time around.

The pyschological barrier pilots have to get over is the fact that they actually care for the company more than the management. This was demonstrated in spades by the shutdown. The pilots took action which cost the company $0. The company's response cost millions

What’s the point of going on strike? All that’ll happen is 1. You’ll lose money 2. The company will lose money 3. You’ll end up in FWC and get an arbitrated deal that’s no better than what you could’ve negotiated.

If you think grounding the airline is going to give you the upper hand then I hope you aren’t running industrial strategy for pilots 😬

CurtainTwitcher
12th Mar 2018, 03:42
What’s the post of going on strike? .
Sloppy trolling, must pay more attention to detail...

Keg
12th Mar 2018, 04:47
What’s the point of going on strike? All that’ll happen is 1. You’ll lose money 2. The company will lose money 3. You’ll end up in FWC and get an arbitrated deal that’s no better than what you could’ve negotiated.


You're right. Perhaps pilots should wear ties and make PAs and let the airline ground the airline. That way the pilots lose no money, the company loses circa $200 million, and we end up in the FWC with an arbitrated deal that was probably better than what we were prepared to negotiate.

Oh, wait....

neville_nobody
12th Mar 2018, 04:49
You’ll end up in FWC and get an arbitrated deal that’s no better than what you could’ve negotiated.
If you think grounding the airline is going to give you the upper hand then I hope you aren’t running industrial strategy for pilots

All of that is completely unknown. That is a problem from the management side and they lose control of the outcome.

I would suggest that a real threat of a real strike with angry pilots would probably put some pressure on senior management especially if it was coming into bonus season.

JPJP
12th Mar 2018, 04:51
Sloppy trolling, must pay more attention to detail...


Justin was a little groggy after lunch in the cafeteria. It’s difficult to remain alert in your cubicle on a Monday.

Justin. Beaver
12th Mar 2018, 04:59
You're right. Perhaps pilots should wear ties and make PAs and let the airline ground the airline. That way the pilots lose no money, the company loses circa $200 million, and we end up in the FWC with an arbitrated deal that was probably better than what we were prepared to negotiate.

Oh, wait....

That FWC arbitrated outcome could’ve been agreed to the whole time but the unions insisted on claims that were never going to be agreed to and never going to be given by FWC.

You need to understand how they think. And giving in to industrial pressure is not an option for them.

neville_nobody
12th Mar 2018, 05:31
And giving in to industrial pressure is not an option for them.

Well that's the party line anyway. Reality could be very different. I don't think we will ever find out the answer though.

Rated De
12th Mar 2018, 06:06
What would you have done if you were AIPA president a few months ago? Looking forward to your detailed plan. Given that the issue has been bubbling away for at least 10 months, platitudes and pleas for patience hardly pass the pub test.

Qantas retain many of the top tier legal and financial firms, locking out their opponents. Find one, a new one, the best you can afford. The current external legal are a known quantity, this needs new eyes.

From Jetconnect, to Network to 457 visa and arguably a pilot school, Qantas are attempting to position, having ALREADY established a strategy. Such missives from unions about 'gathering and assessing', seems a dollar short and weeks late. Maybe the Union saw the 'ceasefire' as an end to hostilities, we don't pretend to understand the psyche.

Notwithstanding,

Qantas state openly:

"These are New Zealand pilots operating New Zealand-originated services flying New Zealand-registered aircraft operated by a New Zealand entity".

Section 311 of the Fair Work Act 2009 has some interesting information with respect to assets (aircraft)
In fact s311-320 are very interesting.


The aircraft are not now NZ registered, Qantas relied on this in 2011.
There never was a transfer of ownership as there never was a LEASE in place.
The flight number convention has the flight originating in Australia.



There are some fascinating elements to the Operating Agreement and Financial Statements.


Then again, in ten months perhaps you are right and the union hopes Qantas will 'play fair'.


Apologies to Paul Kelly, but whilst there may be two sides out there only AIPA is playing cricket.



You are absolutely correct Neville:

All of that is completely unknown. That is a problem from the management side and they lose control of the outcome.

Fingers crossed the pilots lack cohesion, because if Fair Work were required to re-visit this matter Qantas may lose control.

RealityCzech
12th Mar 2018, 08:07
Wow... so your advice is to get new lawyers. Amazing.

The only change from 2011 is the State of registration. None of the other factors have changed that were referred to in para 48 of the joint judgement. Do you really think the rego is going to change the judgement?

Gambling with taking your EBA and giving it to a 3rd party is risky. The case law on arbitrated EBAs, and indeed applications to terminate EBAs, doesn't give me a lot of comfort in going there as an employee.

V-Jet
12th Mar 2018, 10:25
Wow... so your advice is to get new lawyers. Amazing.

The only change from 2011 is the State of registration.

Interesting day In the cubicles Justin and Reality!

There are a couple of changes since 2011. The company has been even more grossly mismanaged, thrown even more money away chasing windmills, gay pride, and paying for black fellas to tend the Australian landscape exactly as they have for Millenia, painting aircraft at a truly bizarre cost in frankly offensive manner and Im sure a few other issues that makes me consider throwing up every time I think about working for these clowns. Then there is the fact the airline is SO badly mismanaged and long term staff are SO undervalued they really don’t give a flying cubicle anymore. The sand or Peking duck might not be as green on the other side but at least you know what you get!

Joyce is a tool. An incompetent thief. I take that back, he is a competent thief. But he’s an absolutely incompetent businessman. Among many other things. He (using term under advisement) has taken a hell of gamble with a billion dollar airline. Within 10 years or so there won’t be much left. Except enormous debt to try to fix the 20ish years of incompetence. Not much to lose when looked at that way is there?

Happy cubicling! Try a pterodactyl!!

Rated De
12th Mar 2018, 10:40
There is plenty in the FW transcript and Senate inquiry regarding Jetconnect. An airline without a fuel bill is really interesting.
As is a CEO who doesn't know the structure of his board, claims the 'capital return' was a 'book entry' and the fact that Qantas claimed independence of operation thereby pushing Jetconnect beyond the reach of Australian workplace law, is now curiously lacking.


Some multinational businesses attempt to shift their profits to low-tax jurisdictions by setting unrealistic prices for their actual commercial or financial dealings with their related parties.

RealityCzech
12th Mar 2018, 10:45
None of those things has much to do with lifting the corporate veil in respect of employment contracts. But then again you are supposedly in 'Europe', so maybe you have a different take on things :ok:

V-Jet
12th Mar 2018, 11:24
But then again you are supposedly in 'Europe', so maybe you have a different take on things :ok:

RD sure does. Anyone not mainlining Kool Aid in the Campus injecting rooms label it ‘reality:)’

BTW: Any answer on how clean, green QF Int is going to thrive whilst it burns 170,000kgs more gas per HOUR than any of its’ competitors? Network/JC is nothing but a pathetic sideshow, clasping at straws. Tragic, but true.

RealityCzech
12th Mar 2018, 11:28
RD sure does. Anyone not mainlining Kool Aid in the Campus injecting rooms label it ‘reality:)’

BTW: Any answer on how clean, green QF is going to thrive whilst it burns 170,000kgs more gas per HOUR than any of its’ competitors? Network/JC is nothing but a pathetic sideshow, clasping at straws. Tragic, but true.

That's easy. You need to have a business case that stacks up to outlay the capital for new jets, taking into account expected revenue versus cost and in light of the ever increasingly competitive international market. The argument that Qantas is currently flying less fuel efficient aircraft versus its competitors is a separate issue to whether or not the numbers add-up to buy new jets. That won't stop plenty of pprune 'experts' from treating them as the same question though.

V-Jet
12th Mar 2018, 11:31
That's easy. You need to have a business case that stacks up to outlay the capital for new jets, taking into account revenue versus cost and in light of the ever increasingly competitive international market. The argument that Qantas is currently flying less fuel efficient aircraft versus its competitors is a separate issue to whether or not the numbers add-up to buy new jets. That won't stop plenty of pprune 'experts' from treating them as the same question though.

Tell me RC. Have you visited the planet Earth recently?

Why don’t you start with Pterodactyls?

I never realised Zero Hour or its’ copy, Airplane/Flying High was going to be a future documentary on QF Management briefings.

https://youtu.be/PDtVP6R6C0g

RealityCzech
12th Mar 2018, 11:33
Tell me RC. Have you visited the planet Earth recently?

Why don’t you start with Pterodactyls?

It's the really insightful responses like this that help to remind me who is actually making the decisions and who is writing irrelevant garage on the internet.

V-Jet
12th Mar 2018, 11:43
It's the really insightful responses like this that help to remind me who is actually making the decisions and who is writing irrelevant garage on the internet.

One of us is writing irrelevant garage on the interweb, the other is asking how the hell Qf can expect to compete when it’s burning 170,000kgs EXTRA fuel EVERY, SINGLE HOUR it is in the air when compared to its’ competitors.

That’s Joyce’s great contribution to an Australian icon and flag carrier. Debt, wasted opportunity, cash extraction and personal wealth.

Irrelevant garage. Says it all really. If it’s going to be irrelevent, you may as well garage it!

Jeez I crack myself up sometimes. ‘How much longer can QF remain competitive (with that fuel burn)? About half an hour less 45 minutes!’.

I really DID choose the wrong week to quit amphetemines!

Street garbage
12th Mar 2018, 22:25
V-Jet;

Mate, they are not interested in the long term viability of QF, all of them are "what's in it for me", or more specifically "how do I achieve my KPI's". New aircraft? Just how many aircraft has been ordered by Mr Joyce? It won't take much of an oil price increase...

Rated De
13th Mar 2018, 07:55
Rumours abound of more than 15 aircraft for Network.

As mentioned, this was received from a friend at Qantas..

so rumours of an expansion of the Network operation from six
to twenty aircraft and the amalgamation of the Jetconnect training
personnel are simply that - rumours. We will update members as soon as
any further information becomes available.


Pilots ought ask themselves whether Qantas is telling you the whole story and is the union up on events because Mr Joyce already told the market:
“All 18 A321LR NEOs are expected to be delivered by the end of 2022 to replace Jetstar’s oldest A320s for use on domestic and international routes, and will each deliver a fuel burn improvement of around 15 per cent,” Qantas said on Thursday.
Previously the Qantas order of 99 Airbus A320neo (new engine option) family aircraft was structured to comprise 54 A320neo and 45 of the larger A321neo, with deliveries scheduled to begin in 2019.
Instead Qantas now says the order “retains flexibility with the sequencing of the rest of its A320neo order, which is approximately an even split of 232-seat A321LR neos and 186-seat A320neos.”


So the question pilots at Qantas and indeed Jetstar, particulalry in the West ought ask is HOW many aircraft come off lease and where will they go?

The Green Goblin
13th Mar 2018, 08:27
It’s a no brainer that the 320s will replace the Fokkers. So you could imagine at least as many 320s as there is now Fokkers. The question is will they replace 737s?

The writing was on the wall when no one questioned propstar.

Rated De
13th Mar 2018, 10:19
It’s a no brainer that the 320s will replace the Fokkers. So you could imagine at least as many 320s as there is now Fokkers. The question is will they replace 737s?



What precisely does the union need to gather and review options for?

The fact from a well placed source that Network cannot find pilots for the 'deal' to fly A320 will be lost as the pilots prepare a 'negotiation' to surrender more ground.

It is funny as what has been tried elsewhere eventually gets back down under...

A season or so ago, this was the play in many carriers...
With union executives at ILALPA conferences one must consider whether they actually ever listen to the experience of others...

V-Jet
15th Mar 2018, 09:04
Mate, they are not interested in the long term viability of QF, all of them are "what's in it for me", or more specifically "how do I achieve my KPI's". New aircraft? Just how many aircraft has been ordered by Mr Joyce? It won't take much of an oil price increase...

Yep. Took your post for me to come up with QF’s mission statement. Best I got from HR was ‘Qantas is a great many things to a great many people’.

Yours is so simple - and 100% accurate. ‘What’s in it for me?’

Have to get that posted on the doors of QCCC (Qantas Cubicle Campus Central) in prison camp sized letters ASAP. Staff need to know their purpose each day.

blow.n.gasket
15th Mar 2018, 10:09
Have to get that posted on the doors of QCCC (Qantas Cubicle Campus Central) in prison camp sized letters ASAP.

I always thought this would be closer to reality

“Arbeit macht versklavt “

V-Jet
15th Mar 2018, 11:11
I always thought this would be closer to reality

“Arbeit macht versklavt “

Perfect! And I had to look up ‘versklav’

airdualbleedfault
17th Mar 2018, 09:33
Yep, replacing a 100 seat aircraft with a 170 seat one (on routes that can only just support 100 seats) certainly is a no brainier :}

busdriver007
17th Mar 2018, 13:44
When Mainline earns 265% that of Jetstar according to the last financial results(EBITDAR) and the decision is made to invest in Jetstar then it is quite clear that this is an ideological decision based on no financial evidence is insane. It reeks of the insanity that almost killed Rio. Remember Jetstar has more Aircraft than Qantas now. They have been lucky the fuel hasn’t doubled because the Mothership is fast running out of options and money(except to pay bonuses of course). These people make Bernie Madoff look like an amateur! Jetstar Pilots will be training their replacements just as Mainline did with Jetconnect. Wake up Aussie Pilots, you are fast becoming your own worst enemy. The Pilot shortage MAY save you!

Airbus A320321
17th Mar 2018, 14:21
When Mainline earns 265% that of Jetstar according to the last financial results(EBITDAR) and the decision is made to invest in Jetstar then it is quite clear that this is an ideological decision based on no financial evidence is insane. It reeks of the insanity that almost killed Rio. Remember Jetstar has more Aircraft than Qantas now. They have been lucky the fuel hasn’t doubled because the Mothership is fast running out of options and money(except to pay bonuses of course). These people make Bernie Madoff look like an amateur! Jetstar Pilots will be training their replacements just as Mainline did with Jetconnect. Wake up Aussie Pilots, you are fast becoming your own worst enemy. The Pilot shortage MAY save you!

Those planes are painted in qantas colours not JQ and they’re taking flying off QF. No one at Jetstar is worried about losing flying.

Tankengine
17th Mar 2018, 14:36
Those planes are painted in qantas colours not JQ and they’re taking flying off QF. No one at Jetstar is worried about losing flying.
I didn’t think they were that thick!

Bula
17th Mar 2018, 15:06
Different market, different business. The A320 capacity moved to Network has already been back filled in JQ.

As for thickness, to still consider the QANTAS still involves QANTAS and Jetstar as mutually independent entities need to move along. QANTAS is Australian Airlines, QANTAS International, Jetstar, Easten Australia Airlines, Sunstate, Cobham and Network......Hence the QANTAS Group. Implulse and TAA fit there somewhere as well.

I agree QF need some investment in heavy metal beyond the 8 x 787’s. However capital expense of the magnitude required will drive the share price down in the interim, so it must be segregated and stagnated.

If you want to blame someone or something, look at capitalism and the share market. Business is now looking to be the new far left.

GA Driver
17th Mar 2018, 23:12
Jetstar Pilots will be training their replacements just as Mainline did with Jetconnect. Wake up Aussie Pilots, you are fast becoming your own worst enemy.

This is a tough one. Whilst I agree with the theory, as a training captain you don’t generally get a ‘say’ in who you are training unless it’s ‘I no longer wish to train.’ So unfortunately it persists.

If you want to blame someone or something, look at capitalism and the share market. Business is now looking to be the new far left.

This I couldn’t agree with more.

Airbus A320321
17th Mar 2018, 23:55
I still believe that many pilots are jumping at shadows when it comes to network. The mail that I’m getting from people in the know is that the original plan was to have Jetstar operating these charter flights but the customer (Fortescue Metals Group) had too many cancellations last time JQ operated the flights, as they would prioritise their RPT flights over the charters and insisted they not be operated by JQ.

This goes against the naritive of a plot by qantas to undercut pilot wages.

I’ve heard all the rumours ‘I’ve got a mate, who knows someone who heard network are getting 10 A320s.’

Even if this were true, who’s to say they won’t be just to replace the Fokker 100s?

I’m not naive enough to declare that it definitely won’t happen, but comments like ‘you’re training your own replacements’ and suggesting that network is the next Jetconnect are quite premature.

V-Jet
18th Mar 2018, 00:20
If you want to blame someone or something, look at capitalism and the share market. Business is now looking to be the new far left.

Interesting perspective that goes right to the heart of the Orwellian 1984 argument. Massive bonuses and huge pay structures are _suppsed_ to eliminate that psychology, but I see the point - it's encouraged it. The longevity of the Company (any Company - or nation) is put at risk with the 'What's in it for me' mentality.

This goes against the naritive (sic) of a plot by qantas to undercut pilot wages.

The problem is that this 'Management' group simply cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions - ie: those in the best long term interests of the Company. Ergo, they've made such monumentally idiotic decisions over now decades that anyone who trusts them to do something sensible is a fool. Or a short term QCCC injecting room mainliner.

It is highly probable that any decision that is made by 'Management' is driven by a simple desire to reduce not just terms and conditions but also the quality of the end product.

Even suggesting this isn't the case, the evidence over (again) now decades, suggests that as they have repeatedly driven down conditions of every group they can, outsourced and sacked employees wherever they can (to the extreme detriment of the Qantas product and brand); why WOULDN'T they want to continue? It's worked SO well for them in the past (NOT!) - and frankly, an entire company of cubicle dwellers have lost the skill to do anything else.

As far as visionary leadership goes, Qf management is as far from ept as I could possibly imagine.

To accurate not to include:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblfKREj50o

Tankengine
18th Mar 2018, 01:15
Different market, different business. The A320 capacity moved to Network has already been back filled in JQ.

As for thickness, to still consider the QANTAS still involves QANTAS and Jetstar as mutually independent entities need to move along. QANTAS is Australian Airlines, QANTAS International, Jetstar, Easten Australia Airlines, Sunstate, Cobham and Network......Hence the QANTAS Group. Implulse and TAA fit there somewhere as well.

I agree QF need some investment in heavy metal beyond the 8 x 787’s. However capital expense of the magnitude required will drive the share price down in the interim, so it must be segregated and stagnated.

If you want to blame someone or something, look at capitalism and the share market. Business is now looking to be the new far left.

Not blaming anyone? Except management.
Qantas is made up of many airlines now as you say, why do you think that is?
If you think Jetstar is immune to the crap Qantas mainline has had to put up with re being undercut you really are thicker than I thought.

GoldCoastTobacconist
18th Mar 2018, 01:51
The mining work conducted by JQ was done exceptionally well. I would dispute the fact the client was not happy as commercial flights were pushed to conduct the mining charters. The distinct lack of Cabin Crew base in Perth for JQ (and its prior oversight from ADL to make ADL the centre of the Mid & Western bases Universe) and of course the lower cost base of Network ( hang on I'll just check my roster at 1700 to see what I'm doing tomorrow :rolleyes: ) has helped. I'd put a few muffins on it that the F100 operation provides clients more disruptions than the Jetstar operation to the Pilbara ever did.

ExtraShot
18th Mar 2018, 07:04
and of course the lower cost base of Network.

Said aircraft doesn’t seem to have done much flying since arriving (to such great fanfare, remember!). Has it even done a mining charter yet? If it’s not flying, then neither are the crews endorsed on it, who’d still be getting paid... That can’t be doing much for the old ‘lower cost base’?!

Rated De
18th Mar 2018, 07:10
I agree QF need some investment in heavy metal beyond the 8 x 787’s. However capital expense of the magnitude required will drive the share price down in the interim, so it must be segregated and stagnated.

If you want to blame someone or something, look at capitalism and the share market. Business is now looking to be the new far left. Capitalism? What passes as modern markets are not capitalist. With interest rates at 5,000 year lows and over 10 trillion Government treasury bonds negative yielding debt and risk are not priced correctly.

Thus management prefer to buy back shares rather than invest in 'new metal' when 'share price' can be juiced by leveraging the company with cheap debt. Bonus prizes as the very same management incentives hit the stratosphere...

With Qantas using nearly TWO billion of shareholder's funds to reward themselves and boost the EPS with share buy backs, that 'new metal' you talk of is nowhere to be seen.

V-Jet
18th Mar 2018, 07:33
Thus management prefer to buy back shares rather than invest in 'new metal' when 'share price' can be juiced by leveraging the company with cheap debt. Bonus prizes as the very same management incentives hit the stratosphere...

With Qantas using nearly TWO billion of shareholder's funds to reward themselves and boost the EPS with share buy backs, that 'new metal' you talk of is nowhere to be seen.

And it won’t be. Self enrichment and chasing Asian LCC windmills (which would have been themselves spun off) have destroyed what could have been.

I saw video years ago of a Drexel Burnham Lambert Christmas party (they did good parties) featuring the band ‘Starship’ playing a feature ‘We built this city on high yield bonds’.

Just so you do believe me, there’s only a tiny clip online from a BBC docco. Interesting voiceover - ‘destruction of the old corporations’.

https://vine.co/v/eTFwhIU5d1t

CurtainTwitcher
18th Mar 2018, 08:52
And it won’t be. Self enrichment and chasing Asian LCC windmills (which would have been themselves spun off) have destroyed what could have been.

I saw video years ago of a Drexel Burnham Lambert Christmas party (they did good parties) featuring the band ‘Starship’ playing a feature ‘We built this city on high yield bonds’.


If you liked the movie, you'll love the books... The Predators Ball by Connie Bruck and Den Of Thieves by James B Stewart outlining the King of junk, Milkin and his collection of pliant raiders & inside traders.

Listen carefully to Gordon Gekko in Wall Street, that's the voice of Milkin, Boesky & his ilk on how it was done. Oliver Stone's father was a stock broker and he wrote one of the most deceptively intricate inside stories on how egregious business had become in the 1980's.

Since then it has only become more refined and white collar crime has been decriminalised [Corporations are now so big they represent a "Systemic Risk" to the system and therefore can't be touched]. Stone was a genius, historians only caught up to him much later.

Rated De
18th Mar 2018, 09:56
And as Gekko correctly surmised and I paraphrase;

'Most analysts don't know preferred stock from livestock'..

Given Qantas selectively brief 'inside analysts' the critique of any management assertion is very light weight...

Qantas still need a new fleet.

It is perhaps worth noting as IFRS16 changes mean aircraft come on balance sheet, there may well be 'depreciable' life left in the Network air frames. Hence it is entirely possible given the schedules Qantas use that there are more aircraft than they know what to do with.

From sources at EADS it would appear the 99 A320 NEOP order cannot be cancelled....

What to do, what to do! Another distraction! :D

As General Melchett indicated one of those privy to the cunning plan is the Tortoise....Alan!

V-Jet
18th Mar 2018, 10:34
Preferred stock from livestock.... I’ve quoted that to bankers and their moron valuers. And they have proved the rule.... Chairman’s Lounge anyone???

kimbobimbo
19th Mar 2018, 00:01
Jetstar was unable to provide the flexibility demanded by the mining companies. You have to realize they pay a good deal to get a service and what they need is the ability to make changes at late notice. Jetstar wasn’t good at this, Network was despite the reliability issues with the Fokker. We don’t check our rosters at 1700 anymore.

-41
20th Mar 2018, 14:23
We don’t check our rosters at 1700 anymore.

Got acars turned on yet?

kimbobimbo
21st Mar 2018, 00:17
Got acars turned on yet?

What, to check our rosters? No, acars isn’t active.

-41
21st Mar 2018, 03:02
Was just asking😁

Rated De
29th Mar 2018, 07:19
As it emerges that Qantas was the lead protagonist for the 457 skill shortage addition of 'pilot' so it appears that they now want five years.

Rumour is the same approach is considered for Network aviation. The salary being what it is has not attracted sufficient applicants (at least applicants meeting the standard). Thus a 'shortage' exists. Mr Dutton as sharp as a bowling ball would not dare ask what happens if you improve the salary, instead expect this to be the standard play from here on in...

The question Qantas pilots now need to ask is where is Wally? What is the union proposing some seven weeks after the SGM, are they still gathering information?

Iron Bar
29th Mar 2018, 07:40
What do you propose AIPA do Rated De?

Lezzeno
29th Mar 2018, 08:16
What do you propose AIPA do Rated De?

Perhaps something other than a good Malcolm Turnbull impersonation

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/hiding-head-in-sand-picture-id184391459

Iron Bar
29th Mar 2018, 08:35
Well come on Lez', show us your depth of IR knowledge and strategy, tell us all what should be done?

Lezzeno
29th Mar 2018, 10:10
A visit to FWA would be appropriate, however to be successful it would require spending money on decent legal representation. It all comes down to priorities, I hear Luxembourg can be very expensive.

Iron Bar
29th Mar 2018, 10:45
Luxembourg? Lost me.

Well your expensive legal representation would need the juice to re-draft the Fair Work Act. Because as it stands, there ain't shit in there that can prevent QF from doing exactly what they have with Network and J Connect.


No point on spending time and money in FWC ("C" for Commission "A" for Act) arguing a losing position. Unfortunately that's the reality right now. Blindly throwing crap at AIPA doesn't achieve shit.

Lezzeno
29th Mar 2018, 10:49
I'm confused what is a loosing position?

Street garbage
29th Mar 2018, 11:42
I'm confused what is a loosing position?
Your typo, not his.

Street garbage
29th Mar 2018, 11:43
I'm confused what is a loosing position?
Nothing AIPA can do, but August isn't too far away...

Lezzeno
29th Mar 2018, 18:29
Your typo, not his.

Afraid not, a post on this site can be edited after submission as anyone who saw Iron Bar's original post would know.

Nothing AIPA can do, but August isn't too far away...

Another IFALPA conference in August?

Rated De
29th Mar 2018, 23:40
Heard a whisper that the AFAP may have find themselves able to represent Qantas pilots, although my sources tell me AIPA are 'vigourously' defending their sole representative rights. Interestingly Qantas also oppose the AFAP.

Is it a case of Qantas has AIPA's measure, or is it seen as providing a viable alternative with an unknown opponent that has Qantas and AIPA on the same side of the boat?

From our perspective the silence emanating from AIPA are not good optics.
The fact that it was widely known outside Qantas that Jetconnect was a real possibility to be rolled into mainline Qantas for nearly a year, it is scarily foretelling that AIPA were not ahead of this issue far earlier. The position should have been established far in advance of now. Further Network Aviation had an application into amend the AOC for A320 how long ago? (if AIPA didn't know, then the appointment of the Current CP was at least a head's and given his A320 experience at JQ) to have seen the warning signs is a sad indictment of priority.

Sitting at IFALPA conferences in Europe and silence are not good optics given Qantas (as lead advocates for 457 skill shortage visas) are now lobbying for five year visas.


The original 457 announcement by Oberführer Dutton was in the Christmas New Year break and NOW this announcement on the eve of Easter is a sure sign that Qantas pilots are again being played, their union leadership silent and sampling beer in Luxembourg is not a good omen. A dollar short and a lot late, playing catch up is not a good look.

CaptCloudbuster
30th Mar 2018, 02:53
What do you propose AIPA do Rated De?

Seems like the appropriate question is why should we keep paying Union fees to an Organisation that proposes nothing?

CurtainTwitcher
30th Mar 2018, 04:23
Seems like the appropriate question is why should we keep paying Union fees to an Organisation that proposes nothing?

What are unions actually able to do? Outside protected industrial action there is virtually ZERO scope to have any meaningful leverage by virtue of Federal Industrial Relations law. Unions and union official are personally liable for damages to any company and third parties for non-protected action. Are members asking their representatives to take actions that virtually guarantee personal & family bankruptcy?

The only avenue to effect change and leverage is during an EBA bargaining period. Use this time extremely wisely. Keeping an EBA as short in duration as possible will extend your leverage.

Yes, we woke up to find ourselves living in a fascist state with wage price controls. There is no pilot market in Australia by order of the State at the demands of business, backed ultimately with the full force of violence and incarceration.

However, the problem with price controls is they usually result in a shortage of the suppressed good or item as no producer will willingly voluntarily undertake production at below the risk/reward cost for any length of time. Stockpiles are diminished, this masks the reality, and once they are exhausted they are not replenished. This equates to observed reality for pilots.

If it was such a "glamours" job that rewarded the financial & personal risks there would be a continuous queue of ATPL holders who have risked a deposit on a Sydney or Melbourne house just to get to the starting line. Until airlines start to genuinely bare financial risk for training to CPL level or pay substantially more for the the bottom rung of the Commercial ladder (instructing is one the key positions, because without them NOTHING can change). But of course paying instructors more will simply increase the cost of gaining a licence, thus make it less affordable, and even risker. Sucks to be them.

Next up will be the demands for Commonwealth Scholarships & subsidies for civilian training... and they will get it too.

Rated De
30th Mar 2018, 08:07
What are unions actually able to do? Outside protected industrial action there is virtually ZERO scope to have any meaningful leverage by virtue of Federal Industrial Relations law. Is that AIPA's position? Has that been communicated to members?

We fail to see how a binary decision regarding the Jetconnect model as detailed in Fair Work February 2011, stipulated that control was not Qantas' is not somewhat different in the present.

Given the aircraft are now returned to Qantas without a lease payment ever being made (or even being entered in the statutory accounts) it is ipso facto sufficient for Fair Work to revisit the notion of 'control'. If anything, doing nothing will only embolden the management.
If Jetconnect was something then, it is the other something now

Are the angels working on the weekend?


However, the problem with price controls is they usually result in a shortage of the suppressed good or item as no producer will willingly voluntarily undertake production at below the risk/reward cost for any length of time. Stockpiles are diminished, this masks the reality, and once they are exhausted they are not replenished. This equates to observed reality for pilots.Having sent the wrong signals to the market for years, there are insufficient pilots. Demographics is the best bet there is, Qantas are posturing as they know this too.
You can almost expect some sort of an IR war as the cancellations in the MAINLINE fleet rise.
The drum is beating, again.

neville_nobody
30th Mar 2018, 08:12
Time to get serious. Pilot Unions historically have been weak, but the time is surely coming to grow a spine and sort out a few lines in the sand. Otherwise it will be a open door to the rest of the world.

Rated De
30th Mar 2018, 09:01
Time to get serious. Pilot Unions historically have been weak, but the time is surely coming to grow a spine and sort out a few lines in the sand. Otherwise it will be a open door to the rest of the world. It is interesting Neville. In a show of co-operation the American unions were shown the books at a carrier in Chapter 11. Unions agreed to cuts of 21%, salaries, benefits and conditions. Sound familiar?

Sadly for the airline concerned the pilots found out from a media article that an 'executive retention plan' had bonuses safely tucked away 'elsewhere'. Two years later and the CEO gone saw the dispute settled.

Do pilots realise that although Qantas executives 'agreed' to pay freezes, the bonus this time was all those options..Vesting nicely after the fleet impairment made many rich managers, while the staff got stuck with the pay freeze.

It is obvious that an agenda is being rolled out. It was obvious from afar. We can disagree on things, but ultimately expecting the Unions to have learned to initiate a strategic campaign is akin to leaving it to someone else.
Can tell you US unions, with which AIPA claims affiliation will never forget the lesson.

In the case of another carrier flight cancellations bough the company to heel: Hint lack of crew. Do pilots have sufficient spine to fight themselves? Non -protected action plays to their strength and there is an array of employer friendly legislation just waiting for the careless. Waiting for union leadership may result in bitter disappointment. It appears that the union is more intent on protecting turf, fighting tooth and nail to keep the AFAP out of representation, rather than actually doing to protect the careers of their members. If our sources are correct expect 457 Visa pilots flying Network A320. Where will AIPA draw a line? Luxembourg?

CurtainTwitcher
30th Mar 2018, 09:17
Has that been communicated to members?
Yes, it was spelled out in exquisite detail verbally at the recent special general meeting by legal counsel for AIPA. I do not claim to speak for anyone else but myself.

Then there is the more general cases from the ABCC / CFMUE and the NSW train drivers. I contend that any meaningful leverage has been extinguished through legal mechanisms and arbitrary decisions that have in effect outlawed the ability to take any action that will harm an essential service or the public. Of course, these definitions now can be extended to cover 100% of work places.

It is true, there is scope to re-run the Jetconnect case. What would be the result of a win by AIPA? Almost certainly a change in legislation would be demanded (and received) in Canberra by Qantas to circumvent this outcome. A win by Qantas? A clear precedent will embolden them to further extend the strategy. Currently there is a degree of uncertainty & ambiguity.

Unfortunately there is a large asymmetry in the power relationship. A union is unlikely to provide complementary privileges of lounges and cabin upgrades to politicians and powerbrokers. In fact, if it attempted to do so, charges of corruption would be bought against the union leaders for misappropriation of members fund. To Qantas, that's just the cost of doing business to be deducted from any taxable income.

If you are referring to me as an angel, nothing could be further from the truth. My personal conviction is one of hatred for the egregious & corrupt business & political leadership that has resulted in a fascist state we find ourselves in. I will let my previous posts (https://www.pprune.org/search.php?searchid=6472378) speak for themselves, and each reader can judge my standing on what I have said in the past.

Rated De
30th Mar 2018, 10:31
AIPA need better legal representatives.
Am well aware of whom you speak.

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fresources0.news.com.au%2Fimages% 2F2013%2F07%2F29%2F1226687%2F498308-ce864c3a-f7f7-11e2-863a-a54f297353fa.jpg&sp=27ac81aa1de5dcc8c87b33a9845389c9

Maybe Dennis can be sent to the woodshed.

With respect to the title of this thread, the reality that management face is that demographics have ensured that their actions to denigrate and force downwards terms and conditions have been an incredible success. Bravo Ian Oldmeadow.

Network cannot crew the aircraft.
Qlink cannot crew theirs
457 Visas will continue to expand.

Am told from a reputable source Qantas cancelled a number of domestic 737 services. Perhaps the leverage need not be expended by the usual subjects in the usual directions.

coaldemon
30th Mar 2018, 10:42
At the risk of starting off the usual Diatribe I always enjoy reading comments that don't reflect on recent history (being the last generation time wise) . I wouldn't say Pilot Unions are weak I think they have usually shown a certain pragmatism until that year at the end of the 80's came and went. For those in the hierarchy of the Pilots Unions in Australia I have dealt with they are aware of the unspoken situation in that when required, Labour is mobile. Can the Unions control supply is what this whole argument is about. As the general public now consider travel as a basic necessity of life I would say that Politicians will gravitate to that angle rather than the opposite. Whether they are a member of the QF club or not is not what pushes their buttons. IT is votes. Certainly is interesting reading the comments though. Oh and for the subsequent posts I don't work for QF although obviously I may have worked for one of the domestic airlines a long time ago.

Keg
30th Mar 2018, 12:30
The continued snide references to Luxembourg are childish in the extreme. Were AIPA not engaging with other IFALPA members they'd be criticised from pillar to post for not trying to learn from others- and you'd be leading the charge Rated De. With AIPA having attended such a meeting you now imply criticism of AIPA with these inane asides about lines in the sand being in Luxembourg.

AIPA doesn't always get it right. However the criticism to solution ratio on PPRUNE is running about 1725:1. There is zero short IR term fix to the issues faced by AIPA members. There is zero chance that AIPA can even hint to crews about a withdrawal of labour as that'd be nailed very quickly in the FWC and AIPA (and individual members) held liable for damages. AIPA telegraphing long term IR strategies would be bloody stupid and would again attract criticism.

If whilst on time off at home crew decide of their own volition not to assist with crewing shortages then good luck to them. I can understand why busy and tired crew are starting to prioritise their quality of life ahead of a few extra $$$. If that helps the long term IR strategy then so much the better. It's certainly going to help a lot more than the same bunch of people spouting the same tired lines on PPRUNE.

Lezzeno
30th Mar 2018, 23:23
and you'd be leading the charge Rated De

A mind reader or a good crystal ball? Care to share the lotto numbers (but only in a PM please)?

The continued snide references to Luxembourg are childish in the extreme
It's certainly going to help a lot more than the same bunch of people spouting the same tired lines on PPRuNe

I think you will find this is more frustration than anything else. As a junior pilot in Qantas I have been arguably affected as much as anyone by the 'lost decade'. Now watching management lubricate another pineapple and witnessing a perceived lack of action and poor communication from the organization I pay to represent me I am beginning to wonder where my membership fee's are going. Whether AIPA can't or won't (either can be argued equally) take any action is largely irrelevant, all that matters is results. It is not a charity. Watching a pointless SGM followed by some of the exec heading to Europe for a conference is as Rated De pointed out not a good look. AIPA were able to act quickly and decisively when the AFAP applied to FWC (not FWA, thanks Iron Bar and I'm not suggesting the AFAP would be any better but an SGM was not required to decide on whether or how to take action). At the end of the day AIPA membership is not compulsory, something many pilots of similar seniority to myself are very aware of.

Keg
30th Mar 2018, 23:47
Sure, I understand frustration. I get the desire to ‘do something’ when the company reaches foe the pineapple. Not sure that references to AIPA and Luxembourg on PPRUNE achieve much to deal with the source of that frustration. Perhaps just a short term self righteous glow of venting? Ultimately that feeling is achieved by venting at the wrong people though.

So a couple of questions. The AIPA exec shouldn’t have gone to the IFALPA conference because of the optics of how that looks shortly after the SGM?? And what do you achieve not being a member of AIPA? What does AFAP or TWU membership achieve in these specific circumstances? You cite a perceived lack of action. Have you spoken to any of the AIPA exec? Emailed them seeking a specific response? Put your concerns directly to them? Did they get back to you?

Personally I think the SGM achieved far more strategically than what it’s being given credit for. The response by the Qantas execs at the SGM I think has been very instructive. It’s always instructive when you see your opponent over reach.

Arthur D
31st Mar 2018, 01:42
I find it somewhat hilarious that AIPA are expending so much energy (and money) on defending AFAP’s application to cover Qantas pilots.

What are they so afraid of?

Never mind the fact that AIPA did the same thing to the AFAP some years ago. Apparently the Feds have had enough and returned serve.

Wonder if that was discussed on the junket......

Lezzeno
31st Mar 2018, 01:47
Perhaps just a short term self righteous glow of venting?

Perhaps.

Ultimately that feeling is achieved by venting at the wrong people though

That depends on the source of my frustration. I expect the company to try on what they are after all trying to continuously drive down costs is all they have but I also expect my association to vigorously fight against their efforts to do so in cases such as this that is why I am a member.

The AIPA exec shouldn’t have gone to the IFALPA conference because of the optics of how that looks shortly after the SGM??

I understand the benefits of attendance at such conferences but in this case I think it was inappropriate. As Rated De mentioned, not a good look.

Have you spoken to any of the AIPA exec?
Did they get back to you?

The response was along the lines of Well your expensive legal representation would need the juice to re-draft the Fair Work Act. Because as it stands, there ain't shit in there that can prevent QF from doing exactly what they have with Network and J Connect.


No point on spending time and money in FWC ("C" for Commission "A" for Act) arguing a losing position.
delivered dripping with the same arrogance

When I suggested their legal opinion was only opinion and therefore not automatically correct and could be argued against I was hit with
Well come on Lez', show us your depth of IR knowledge and strategy, tell us all what should be done?

And what do you achieve not being a member of AIPA?
Looks like about the same as being an AIPA member

What does AFAP or TWU membership achieve in these specific circumstances?
As I mentioned in my previous post I'm not suggesting the AFAP (or TWU) would be any better just comparing AIPA's response to the two different threats

Personally I thought the SGM achieved very little, perhaps some of the pilots experienced a short term self righteous glow of venting

Still waiting for the lotto numbers

ExtraShot
31st Mar 2018, 02:04
In fairness to AIPA, there has been a press release on the Visa issue, but thanks to the Australian Cricket Team, Easter, and a general apathy in the media at the ongoing abuse of the ‘457 visa program, or whatever it’s called this week’, it’s gone largely unseen.

Again thanks to the Easter break, meetings with sympathetic Ministers and/or Senators are also probably very hard to come by.

Unfortunate timing has struck again, that or excellent timing by Qf again.

*Lancer*
31st Mar 2018, 02:15
Lezz, taking the company to court over issues that are legally unwinnable gets very expensive and achieves nothing. It’s been done before.

Rated De
31st Mar 2018, 02:56
Lezz, taking the company to court over issues that are legally unwinnable gets very expensive and achieves nothing. It’s been done before.

Would it be auspicious to consider that instead of accepting that nothing can be done, based upon the word of one legal practictioner, to consider gaining a second opinion? Personalities aside the firm concerned may need a rest and new eyes look at things.

Whilst Qantas tie up lots of the top end firms with retainers, as this is standard Status Quo management, there are plenty of creative and well credentialed firms that just may have a different opinion to the incumbents.

goodonyamate
31st Mar 2018, 04:17
I dont think AIPA’s release even made the Australian news. Poor timing or are the endless chairman’s lounge priveleges etc influencing what is printed? Personally I think ‘journalists’ don’t exist anymore. Just idiots that regurgitate press releases and lies.

Keg
31st Mar 2018, 04:22
Three days ago on ABC.

Qantas pushes for visa extensions, more foreign pilots amid critical staff shortage - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-29/qantas-calls-for-visa-extensions-critical-pilot-shortage/9600408)

It’ll need a bit more to gain traction.

Iron Bar
31st Mar 2018, 07:26
Fortunately the lightweights and trolls don't appear to have much influence in the actual issues, (other than apparently annoying AIPA with stupid demands and posting on PPrune with ill informed sniping).

So I'll arrogantly say, why don't you leave the serious people at AIPA alone. By all means bitch away on PPrune if it makes you feel better. (Doesn't do any good) But don't worry the grownups will deal with the important issues.

Beer Baron
31st Mar 2018, 09:58
Sniping from the sidelines is easy. Criticising the company’s decisions, the union’s actions or playing Monday morning quarterback and pretending you saw something coming when no one else did does not make you smarter than the people in the drivers seat.

The notion that you can just get a better lawyer or speak to a minister and solve all our problems is wilfully naive.

These issues are complicated. The solutions do not come overnight. The path to the best achievable outcome can often not be spelt out in open forums for fear of derailing the strategy. Qantas have made it abundantly clear that they monitor AIPA’s communications to their members and react to them. So perhaps it is prudent that not every plan is splashed across the internet.

I’d personally put my faith in guys who have spent hundreds of hours a year, for year upon year working to better the situation of their fellow pilots rather then those who sling criticism far and wide on internet forums.

V-Jet
31st Mar 2018, 12:03
The fundamental issue is that ‘The workers’ are trying to force ‘Management’ to make decisions for the longevity of ‘The Company’ that they are supposedly already paid huge bucks to make. The problem is, those paid the huge bucks have worked out they get even more for destroying the place.

I turn up to work each time I have to, fully expecting and almost wanting to be fired for some transgression. I don’t even wear the uniform (I was once so proud to) as even close to mandated because it is an insult and its’ implementation was gross waste of precious resources. Turns out few others (including those on the EGLL ‘walk of fame’) do either - though I’m proud to say I do it worse:) And trust me, being fired would be a relief, I WOULD enjoy that discussion! Where I grapple with myself is that simply by turning up, I enrich the guys even more, that are causing the problem.

Street garbage
1st Apr 2018, 00:41
V-Jet, management IS detached from reality, there is a complete dis-connect from what happens in Coward St (the irony is AMAZING) to those who deal with customers at the coal face is total. Unfortunately, the 5000 people who were retrenched were in the main front line staff, forcing that remain to work twice as hard with half the resources. How many staff would have been retrenched if Mr Joyce didn't gouge $25mil, Andrew David $10m..etc etc. As I said previously, QF management are not interested in the long term viability of the Airline, in their 3 years in the Company they are only interested in achieving their KPI's, "whats in it for me", and their first class travel.
The thing that confirmed this was Andrew David and Tino at the SGM, I really shouldn't have been surprised, but there was total diconnect.

JPJP
1st Apr 2018, 01:29
I find it somewhat hilarious that AIPA are expending so much energy (and money) on defending AFAP’s application to cover Qantas pilots.

What are they so afraid of?

Never mind the fact that AIPA did the same thing to the AFAP some years ago. Apparently the Feds have had enough and returned serve.

Wonder if that was discussed on the junket......

If you had to make a short list of things that would make FLID (Frank Lorenzo in Drag) happy - Qantas pilots bickering over representation, and divided between two unions would be very high on it.

Rated De
1st Apr 2018, 02:08
If you had to make a short list of things that would make FLID (Frank Lorenzo in Drag) happy - Qantas pilots bickering over representation, and divided between two unions would be very high on it.Yes on first examination this may appear the case, but in actual fact Qantas and AIPA both OPPOSED the application by the AFAP.


No doubt a discussion challenges some. For those grown ups here 'handling this' you may want to ask yourselves what really is Qantas doing?



Network and Jetconnect cannot find crew at the rate of remuneration (this is closely guarded but well known in IR/HR)
Qantas link cannot attract crew at the current level of remuneration
The 'cadet academy' wants 600 pilots a year. Ask why?
The 457 visa is quietly being lobbied to be extended to five years.

This is correlated to the emerging scale of a demographic shortage. Qantas domestic will increasingly feel the shortage, flight cancellations are increasing. That is flights scheduled to be operated by Qantas domestic 737 pilots on the Domestic pilot award. IATA had a recent conference where responses to the structural shortage were discussed. Ask whether Qantas was there? They do not think this up by themselves.



There are insufficient Qantas pilots 'bidding' to go to 737
The directive is that all Qantas Q seniority will be 'pushed through' the 737 fleet.

The target of all this positioning is the control of domestic flying by Australian domiciled, remunerated, union covered Qantas pilots.

Direct entry on to 737 by contract 457 pilots( perhaps) may well be the target

Management are playing chess, the response to date suggests at best checkers...again

GA Driver
1st Apr 2018, 08:18
I thought this topic was about network and jq pilots???

Anyway, seeing it’s now swung to Qantas pilots and Aipa, I’ll chime in.

Why oh why aren’t aipa lobbying as loud as Qf are? I understand there IS probably significant work going on internally, and I am not simply trying to take a stab at the people who are working hard behind the scenes. BUT, whenever I asked this question to aipa about responding or lobbying, the response would be a trembling voice saying something along the lines of ‘we..... dont.... we don’t want the public...... to know...... how much we earn.....’ :rolleyes:
Seriously.......

I think the public already know, AJ and co voiced it at every opportunity and I hardly think the management team will want to bring too much attention to the subject of pay packets!
The voice from aipa is VERY quiet when it comes to anything media/lobbying/public domain. I can understand taking an aggressive line isn’t always a good idea with big business but jeeez you have to at least take a line!

Considering the ammunition available about management remuneration whilst slashing 5000 jobs and now looking at the 457 virus, I could image a tabloid along the lines of ‘QANTAS ATTEMPTING TO EMPLOY FOREIGN LABOUR -LOCAL JOBS AT STAKE’ as a good start.

Icarus2001
1st Apr 2018, 11:01
I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.
Sure there may be a sudden influx of foreign pilots but in reality how many are out there? Willing to move and be long term prospects?
Look at the advertising all around the world now for crews.

GA Driver
1st Apr 2018, 23:36
I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.

I agree with you and Rated De, my point was about AIPA and perhaps getting some information out there from the industry point of view, not Alans.

gordonfvckingramsay
1st Apr 2018, 23:41
Why oh why aren’t aipa lobbying as loud as Qf are?

I’m being very general when I say this, but I’m my recent experience unions are scared to death of airline management.

Beer Baron
2nd Apr 2018, 06:55
AIPA have been briefing the media. This was their media release:

The Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) is deeply concerned about moves by Qantas to recruit a large number of pilots overseas.

In response to an article headlined “Qantas Plea For Foreign Pilots,” published today in The Australian, AIPA President, Captain Murray Butt said the Association does not accept the premise that Australian pilots are not available to fill the positions of pilot and simulator instructors.

“There is no evidence that Qantas, Eastern, Sunstate or Network have tested the market with increased salary packages to see if Australian pilots either currently residing in Australia or working overseas are available to fill the positions,” Capt Butt said.

“Qantas should be offering salary packages that are attractive to Australian pilots. The airline needs to set salaries at a level where it is worthwhile moving more experienced crew such as second officers with 13,000 hours experience into these entities, without taking a huge pay drop.”

“Given the Reserve Bank Governor, Philip Lowe’s comments on employer resistant to wages growth, every Australian should be watching the Turnbull Governments reaction to this request.”

“If corporate Australia’s answer to upward pressure on wages growth is to sell off Australian residency, it’s hard to envisage any real wage growth in Australia in the coming years.”

Capt Butt said the shortage of pilots within the Qantas Group was a product of the airline’s own making.

“Qantas has manipulated the labour market through varying entities and low-cost carriers and set wages in these entities at such low rates, they are no longer competitive on the world market.”

“Qantas is now seeking to supplement these wage rates by offering the inducement of Australian residency.”

“As a result, low wages and the high cost of training has resulted in aviation no longer holding the attraction it once did for younger Australians.”

Capt Butt said Australia ran the risk of becoming a net importer of aviation professionals after years of being a net exporter.

Rated De
2nd Apr 2018, 08:18
Thank you Beer Baron!

Could you please put a link up, our feed didn't see it.

I agree with you and Rated De, my point was about AIPA and perhaps getting some information out there from the industry point of view, not Alans. We would content that you are correct, this is what is needed, Mr Joyce has junkets and family upgrades and Chairman's lounge with which to 'massage' opinion. In other countries that is called soft corruption. As some posters have alluded, there is little unions can do, the deck is stacked. This has happened in Europe (UK) with both 'sides' in charge.

I am not convinced that "foreign labour" is anything more than a bandaid anyway. As Rated De keeps on pointing out this issue is world wide.
Sure there may be a sudden influx of foreign pilots but in reality how many are out there? Willing to move and be long term prospects?
Look at the advertising all around the world now for crews. Spot on. This is standard IR response. The scale of the shortage is unheard of, however the Qantas response is typical and predicated on unlimited supply. Network CANNOT crew flights, Jetconnect is the same. Applicaitons to both entities and indeed the regional subsidiaries are in the single digits.
Convincing pilots in Australia the 'sky is falling in' is the management intent(after all it worked for decades), the rebuttal (pun intended) needs to be just as vigorous.

Street garbage
7th Apr 2018, 23:37
Can anyone from Air North tell us if your Chief Pilot has resigned? And yes, this is related to Network...

Rated De
15th Apr 2018, 11:22
Just received a little correspondence.
It would appear that Network has escaped!

It is no longer confined to charter work, is it the case that it is now replacing Qantas 737 flying on the West Coast?

Gee that didn't take long!

Can any QF pilots confirm?

Keg
15th Apr 2018, 12:12
It has operated its first revenue service. PER- KTA. Maybe it’ll transition to the charter work once they’ve got crew trained, maybe not.

Network Will probably replace every F100 with A320s. If they keep offering the pay they do currently they'll end up as another Jetconnect where they train people for Emirates, China, etc.

They'll solve their crewing problems in the short term because they have an endorsement that is worth something on the world market. Longer term though they're just going to turn over their workforce at 25% per annum as people get a few thousand hours and leave for much greener pastures.

Beer Baron
15th Apr 2018, 12:42
While I am extremely angry about the Network situation, what is occurring is exactly what Qantas said would happen. They never limited it to charter flying. ‘Low utilisation’ flying was the best they could describe it.

It’s very disappointing but it’s not new information.

Network have been flying RPT for a fair while already, the change is the aircraft type.

Lookleft
15th Apr 2018, 13:07
Longer term though they're just going to turn over their workforce at 25% per annum as people get a few thousand hours and leave for much greener pastures.

Thats what was said about Jetstar pilots when it first started. Never underestimate the pull of an Australian basing to those who are already overseas. They will come back to Oz no matter what the conditions, even in todays market. John Gissing once said that the best way for the pay and conditions to improve at Jetstar was for people to leave. it has never happened in sufficient numbers.

Keg
15th Apr 2018, 13:43
Could be right Lookleft. At the end of the day both Network and Jetconnect (as well as QLink and Cobham) are struggling to find and retain pilots now. I can't see much changing at Network without a significant increase in remuneration over current levels.

I can see it getting a lot worse with an A320 endorsement given how the foreign carriers view that endorsement! Guess we'll see how it plays out in a few years.

SOPS
15th Apr 2018, 14:24
I really think..that this time it is real...a pilot shortage. I may come back to flying....but it wil cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$......something Network and the like are yet to work out. They are assuming there is a endless supply of pilots.

I have got a tip for the Bean Counters in all the Airlines in Australia....go and sit at Jandakot Airport for a day....then think about how many people you would kill ( notice..this is just a expression)..if you let of a bomb off..answer,none.

No one is learning to fly, it is enormously expensive, and if you are lucky enough to get that first flying job...you will make more cleaning the airport dunnies.

Popgun
16th Apr 2018, 02:14
No one is learning to fly

Ah but unfortunately they are!

Cadetships continue to be oversubscribed at Jetstar, QantasLink and Rex et al.

Youngsters infected with shiny jet syndrome are enabled by cashed up parents to make their career ‘dreams come true’.

I would LOVE to be wrong...but I still don’t see a pilot shortage biting hard in Australia unless they can’t find enough kids with stars in their eyes.

PG

PS. Surely you can’t be sick of trains already! 😁

Rated De
16th Apr 2018, 06:18
Cadetships continue to be oversubscribed at Jetstar, QantasLink and Rex et al.
We would take a slightly different position.
Australia is no different to Europe, demographics are at play.

Network cannot crew their flights with the remuneration offered.
Jetconnect cannot either.

Further, having personal insights to at least one of the cadet programs to which you refer, they are most certainly not 'over subscribed'

Were they to be 'full' the rate of CPL issuance is simply not sufficient to alleviate the retirement rate. Simple mathematics. The airline management although slow to realise are awakening to the stark reality: their crewing formula is unsustainable at current remuneration, hence JQ crewing the flights and 457 announcement over Christmas.

pilotchute
17th Apr 2018, 05:40
Jetconnect require 500 multi crew time and Network want 500 multi PIC. Thats why nobody is applying.

Many operators have dropped multi time completely from min reqs now. Oh and Network being in Perth doesn't help either.

airdualbleedfault
20th Apr 2018, 07:44
It's not a free endorsement tho Keg, I'm guessing it will be North of 35k over 3 years

bazza stub
20th Apr 2018, 09:53
It's not a free endorsement tho Keg, I'm guessing it will be North of 35k over 3 years


Aaaah, a bond. That will be the next thing pilots will be telling airlines to stick up their a$$!

Rabbitwear
20th Apr 2018, 13:02
Rumours Network will receive some 787s for WADD flights !

kimbobimbo
20th Apr 2018, 15:21
It's not a free endorsement tho Keg, I'm guessing it will be North of 35k over 3 years

Ah... no. No pilot has been bonded on the 320 yet to my knowledge... a new recruit probably but they have not crossed that bridge... yet. They will probably drop the bond in the near future when they realize that pilots will not accept a bond when better options are available!

Network pretend they are progressive with a better, cheaper way to do business... but they are not. They are a company hell bent on expansion, to own the wa market and beyond. Unless they step up to the plate and attract the next generation of pilots they will struggle.

airdualbleedfault
21st Apr 2018, 02:50
The reason for no bond yet Kimbo could be that they have no terms and conditions for the 320 (not in the eba), do the crew even know what they are going to get paid yet?
Also, I wouldn't put it past Notwork to spring the bond thing on them retrospectively

Roj approved
21st Apr 2018, 03:48
Considering the management that has been thrust upon them from the mothership, (COO-former AN/JQ/EEA pole climber, CP-QF LWOP on a fast track, Plus a former AN/JQ/EEA training Manager & AN/JQ LWOP Check Capt that was very unwelcome in PER) you could assume they have a very clear mandate to make this operation as cheap as possible at the expense of all else.

The rumour is more AN/JQ checkies are heading over there to “help”.

Oh, and if the COO tells you something, you can be sure it is bullshit:{

nefarious1
21st Apr 2018, 05:28
Wow, they did such a great job cutting everything at Qlink.....just ask the customers.

Bullytactics
26th Apr 2018, 12:15
Considering the management that has been thrust upon them from the mothership, (COO-former AN/JQ/EEA pole climber, CP-QF LWOP on a fast track, Plus a former AN/JQ/EEA training Manager & AN/JQ LWOP Check Capt that was very unwelcome in PER) you could assume they have a very clear mandate to make this operation as cheap as possible at the expense of all else.

The rumour is more AN/JQ checkies are heading over there to “help”.

Oh, and if the COO tells you something, you can be sure it is bullshit:{

Quite the irrational comment. I can only ascertain a degree of insecurity based around a personal experience with most, if not all, of the aforementioned; this would indicate you’re someone who’s required a degree of “management” in the past and can’t quite move on from that?
Alternatively, you could be someone who’s been overlooked in favour of the aforementioned?
Or.. maybe you’re just bored and bitter and don’t really know why?
Otherwise, what is your point exactly?

Australopithecus
26th Apr 2018, 22:08
I don't know what made me think of this, but do you reckon the Qantas angels' handbook has a chapter on choosing forum names?

Roller Merlin
27th Apr 2018, 04:02
I don't know what made me think of this, but do you reckon the Qantas angels' handbook has a chapter on choosing forum names?

Their job is simply to run interference operations and thread diversions. Best to simply ignore and laugh at their attention getters.

Rated De
20th May 2018, 11:57
Assured that it was just for mine work, opposition non existent. Qantas admitted what sources confirmed long ago: Network is going to expand its operation.

Perth Broome, 'to start with'

A stream lead setting up a pilot training school to feed new fodder into the subsidiary and the by-pass of domestic terms and conditions continues unabated.

https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtb n%3AANd9GcR2WtbWJhxA-hMawwkQNQUW6bg1IcRvKGD8Z_E-moOGF42Tz_z_&sp=5352ab45a4c27b838bde22e70ea52e04&anticache=976752 (https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtb n%3AANd9GcR2WtbWJhxA-hMawwkQNQUW6bg1IcRvKGD8Z_E-moOGF42Tz_z_&sp=5352ab45a4c27b838bde22e70ea52e04&anticache=976752)

Telling the pilots it was only the tip, ensured they remained acquiescent whilst the said act was perpetrated.

Perth Sydney next?

What The
20th May 2018, 21:21
Quite the irrational comment. I can only ascertain a degree of insecurity based around a personal experience with most, if not all, of the aforementioned; this would indicate you’re someone who’s required a degree of “management” in the past and can’t quite move on from that?
Alternatively, you could be someone who’s been overlooked in favour of the aforementioned?
Or.. maybe you’re just bored and bitter and don’t really know why?
Otherwise, what is your point exactly?




I hate to break it to you champ but a job in Qantas management is certainly not seen as any sort of achievement by anyone other than Qantas management.

blow.n.gasket
21st May 2018, 03:20
NEWS FLASH :


Qantas succeeds despite Management,
not necessarily because of Management !

Street garbage
21st May 2018, 04:11
What? You don't want to be a Yes man?

V-Jet
21st May 2018, 07:58
What? You don't want to be a Yes man?


Sexist pig!! Three weeks of Spirit Courses for that thoughtless comment!!:):)

Street garbage
21st May 2018, 08:18
Sexist pig!! Three weeks of Spirit Courses for that thoughtless comment!!:):)
Doesn't sound that bad, couldn't be worse than the Next Step Course....

V-Jet
21st May 2018, 10:23
I forgot the new name:( Regardless, you deserve a fate worse than a fate worse than an HR death! Perhaps sentenced to painting $300,000 rainbows on the tail of every Qf Group (Qantas doesn’t have so many anymore:() aircraft???

ROH111
23rd May 2018, 08:38
What are the A320 Capt and Fo being paid base pay. And is there any provision to make overtime or DTA?

When will QF allow pilots to go to QLink on LWOP for DEC?

Rated De
23rd May 2018, 10:04
What are the A320 Capt and Fo being paid base pay. And is there any provision to make overtime or DTA?

When will QF allow pilots to go to QLink on LWOP for DEC?


It is a practical and logical question to ask.
However the entire apparatus of adversarial IR models ( as practiced at Qantas) are designed with denial of career progression a key component.
There is nothing new in it suffice to say, most airlines are finding it increasing difficult to maintain an effective downward pressure on terms and conditions.
This is due to the emerging reality confronting airlines the world over; lack of qualified pilots.

Allowing pilots a career path, whereby movement based on need and also an individual's desire to gain a promotion with the expected commensurate rise in responsibility and remuneration ought be a simple and obvious thing.

To those who drive this model it is the anathema of their existence.
Dividing pilots, slowing career and opportunities whilst continually ' green fielding' operations keeps labour unit cost where they want it is the play.

Allowing pilots a career will be resisted at all cost.

Roj approved
23rd May 2018, 13:25
I’ve been told by one of the A320 pilots it’s $183,000 a year Base, We didn’t discuss extras.

GA Driver
23rd May 2018, 21:54
I don’t think there was any extras that’s why.

Arthur D
24th May 2018, 11:24
How does that compare to JQ, TT and VARA?

GA Driver
24th May 2018, 20:58
I can only speak for jq and on flat base for base comparison it’s about 6% less. HOWEVER it will be significantly less because it has no allowance/dta/extras.
Jq is base specific so I can’t speak for all and depends how much you get flogged, but most south eastern jq 320 captains are pushing $250+ with some tipping over the $300+
C+T would be well north of those figures.

Street garbage
9th Jun 2018, 08:22
So, the CP of Network was allocated a B737 Command Slot yesterday in Perth.
Rumour has it: So he can become the next HOTC (Head of Flight Training & Checking) at QF.
Last line of the FSO "A willingness and ability to champion a Group First approach in decision making."...certainly ticks that box.

DirectAnywhere
9th Jun 2018, 08:47
When did the CP of Network get a QF seniority number high enough to get a Mainline 737 Command in PER?

Street garbage
9th Jun 2018, 08:59
When did the CP of Network get a QF seniority number high enough to get a Mainline 737 Command in PER?
His seniority is 1193, PER CMD most junior is 1398.

*Lancer*
9th Jun 2018, 09:19
Always love a conspiracy but just because some gets awarded a slot, doesn’t mean it happens. It’s not AJ’s first time appearing on the list (or quite a few others).

coaldemon
9th Jun 2018, 09:20
Why does it matter what seniority and fleet he is on if he is the right person for the Training role?

Keg
9th Jun 2018, 09:41
I don’t know that you can run a conspiracy that because he got a 737 command in PER that a, he’ll be the HOTC, or b, that he’ll even return in the short term. A few years back the MEL Base Ops Manager was allocated a PER A330 slot. The theory being that’s the slot he’s in if he leaves the office role. He then got a MEL role. One of the other managers in SYD also has a PER 330 slot in last years list.

I’m not sure what AJ’s been up to at Network but I can think of worse people to become HOTC.

DirectAnywhere
9th Jun 2018, 09:54
Fair enough. Thanks for the reply Street garbage.

Arthur D
9th Jun 2018, 13:07
Does one not need experience as an examiner first?

Transition Layer
10th Jun 2018, 00:54
The 1000hrs in Command on either 787/747/737/330/380 might be a problem too.

JPJP
10th Jun 2018, 03:47
So he can become the next HOTC (Head of Flight Training & Checking) at QF.
Last line of the FSO "A willingness and ability to champion a Group First approach in decision making."


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/500x375/a161e242_e7ba_4ae2_900b_3c91c248197f_59208ecc421515bedd8a3ca ac1c017fdc4558d24.gif

Half Baked
11th Jun 2018, 11:28
Sounds like a wonderful bunch of chaps on the 380........................toe cutter chronyism perhaps! Superiority complex even?

All C and no T breeds and fosters a culture of fear and intimidation. This culture must be relegated to the dark ages, there is no place for it in today's world.