Oxford Airport

[Cautious Optimist]

Had a bit of jip at Oxford Airport recently with security, was my first time visiting and I was having to use my nose to find various nooks and crannies to spot/photo from, I was keeping an eye out for no spotter/photography signs etc but I saw none. Anyway security collared me, and wrote down details off my drivers licence and made me delete all of my photos in front of her.

I've since consulted with a friend who until recently worked in airport security, and he says she did not have the authority to record my details, but may have had the right to make me delete my photos.

I was using the photos as a log as well and most were unusable as I just wanted the registrations, so I used sleight-of-hand to make sure I saved as many as I could, I saved 23 of which four were usable as photos.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what trouble (if any) I could get in if I posted these photos online against her orders?

[Cirrussy]

Do it, let's find out!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Great shame. I worked there many years back and it was a reasonably friendly place. Problem is that the whole world has gone security mad.

[Planemike]

To an extent it will depend whether you were on private land.

[DaveReidUK]

In the absence of any specific airport byelaws (which I can't find any evidence of on the Oxford Airport website), and assuming you're not suspected of being a terrorist, the only rights that security have are to order you to leave the airport.

[Wolverhampton]

If your photos were taken from a public place (not private land) you can take as many as you want usually without restriction. You should however be careful of sensitive locations based on the world we live in now. Also you should never delete any pictures. If the Police are ever involved, your pictures are your evidence of events.

If you search for "Taking photos in a public place" there is a very good Tech Radar article with a section about security guards. It mentions that they cannot make you delete any pictures and if they do they could be committing a crime.

[JAVELINBOY]

Absolutely, she had no powers to make you delete your pictures. At the outset of higher security measures a number of incidents arose at railway stations where police officers mistakenly thought they had powers regarding persons taking photographs at stations, they were obviosly thinking of terrorism reconnaissance. Following a number of incidents of this nature officers were briefed regarding the absence of any powers to make people delete their photographs. In the case of any suspicion of terrorism reconnaissance then the suspected offender would have ben arrested and camera becomes evidence together with its contents.

[Cautious Optimist]

They were taken on airport property, but then 99% of all my photos are taken on airports properties (never an individual air operator/companies private property), most airports are perfectly fine with it, after Oxford I went to Luton, walked the entire perimeter fence taking photos, similar security van came up to me, saw what I was doing, and left again without saying a word! Why is it good enough for most but not Oxford? They should be ashamed of themselves

[JAVELINBOY]

I would make a complaint to Oxford Airport it certainly needs to ensure their security personnel need some guidance on their powers or more to the point the lack of them.

[Wolverhampton]

Definitely contact Oxford Airport to make a complaint. They can ask you to stop taking pictures or ask you to leave their property. They cannot make you delete your pictures.

[horatio_b]

As long as you have not written any further photos to the memory card, you should be able to recover the deleted photos using readily available software packages.
Only a format would physically delete the photos

[Cpt_Pugwash]

CO, I would also support the above advice to make a formal complaint.

I always carry a laminated card to show any jobsworth such as you encountered.
4271
Note the statement regarding being forced to delete images being considered an assault, although I realise you were not on public property, although maybe it was property to which the public have access, so appropriate signage would be required.

[Cautious Optimist]

As long as you have not written any further photos to the memory card, you should be able to recover the deleted photos using readily available software packages.
Only a format would physically delete the photos

I need to look into this further, although I did take many more photos elsewhere afterwards

[Hotel Tango]

I'm not taking sides here but my personal understanding is that if you are on private property without invitation, that's a whole different ball game to taking photos from a public area. Furthermore, I would very strongly advise the OP not to post photos taken without permission whilst on private property. It could prove costly!

[Harry Wayfarers]

They were taken on airport property, but then 99% of all my photos are taken on airports properties (never an individual air operator/companies private property), most airports are perfectly fine with it, after Oxford I went to Luton, walked the entire perimeter fence taking photos, similar security van came up to me, saw what I was doing, and left again without saying a word! Why is it good enough for most but not Oxford? They should be ashamed of themselves

Go back and stand the other side, on public land, of the airport perimeter and start snapping away with your camera in full view of security.

She had no right to ask to see your ID unless you were entering a security restricted area and if she had any doubts regarding your credability then she should have called the police who would have the rights to ask for your details.

Taking photos of airports in not a criminal offence, yet, in UK.

[JAVELINBOY]

Good advice here
Street photography and the law - Amateur Photographer (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/technique/expert_advice/street-photography-and-the-law-96304)

[Harry Wayfarers]

Good advice here
Street photography and the law - Amateur Photographer (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/technique/expert_advice/street-photography-and-the-law-96304)


I learned the somewhat hard way once, I was involved in a court case and the press asked if they could take my pic, I politely declined but as I walked out of court at the end of ther day, in the dark, the photographer jumped out from behind a bush, started snapping away and got my briefcase around his skull for his trouble.

There is no law against taking pics in a public case, go back and take pics of security themselves.

As a P.S. my press photographer pressed charges for assault and criminal damage, I even pleaded guilty and still the judge declined to convict me, my solicitor had done a deal with the prosecution that if I pleaded guilty they would let me go, they all realised that the press photographer deserved everything he had coming to him :)

[SENFLYER]

Sounds like you got a particularly miserable guy on that day? On the occasional visits to Oxford they've been really accomodating. The cafe by their terminal is ok, although I don't think it does weekends. Last time I went there I thought they had a spotter scheme.

[Abbeville]

Spotters can be an incredibly useful layer of security in their own right.

A

[scarecrow450]

The only thing who can make you delete any pics is a high court judge with an order, that's from the Met police info how to deal with photographers, post the pics they can not stop you taking pics from a public road.

[LTNman]

I have just read the byelaws for Oxford Airport and photography isn't mentioned at all.

At Luton the Byelaw states

No person shall, in the course of business, take photographs or participate in filming or sound recording at the airport without permission.

Nothing at all about private individuals.

[newaviator]

Sometimes you will be better off enquiring at an unfamiliar airfield first.


These byelaws are usually aimed at people who may be photographing for commercial purposes ....just think how many people have phones with built in cameras on the site , they cannot be controlled. Many airfields/airports in the UK have similar byelaws with regard photography.


Best to ask first , to be honest not many photos seem to appear from Oxford Airport with regard enthusiasts taking photos. Visited the place eons ago when it was CSE , and I had to get permission then to take photos , no fancy biz jets in those days - just spamcan's and seneca's .


:ok:

[Cautious Optimist]

The only thing who can make you delete any pics is a high court judge with an order, that's from the Met police info how to deal with photographers, post the pics they can not stop you taking pics from a public road.
I was just to the left of their terminal building, and when I was on the road I suspect it will be an airport owned road and not a public one? Shouldn't matter mind you because 99% of roads on airports are likely private and 99% of airport operators do not care!

[Hartington]

There is software out there that can recover deleted photos. I think it was/is made by sandisc.

When you create any computer file (which is what a digital picture is) it writes the data on the disc and then creates a pointer in an index. To find file xyx.jpg the system will go to the index, find the pointer and thus find the file. All that happens when you delete a file is that the index item gets deleted; the data is still there.

So long as you have the software and have tried it out and understand it you can delete with impunity. Immediately afterwards, take that card out of the camera (so the data is preserved) and put a new one in. Wen you get home retrieve the pictures.

[Cautious Optimist]

I've written a report on the incident here:

DTVMovements Trip Reports (http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/Trips/Articles/Airfield_Etiquette.htm)

[Planemike]

Sadly the carefree days when it was possible to have a wander around Kidlington looking for the latest arrivals with CSE, mainly Pipers from Lock Haven, are long gone. More is the pity !!! Applies at too many other places as well.

With regard to your experiences with the female security operative, I would agree with others on here, it is very likely she has greatly exceeded her authority. A while since I have been to Kidlington but when I did, the Banbury to Oxford public bus service used to call at the front entrance, with stops on airport premises. I think there were some residential blocks (for student pilots) not too far away so not unreasonable to expect members of the public might be wandering around. So long as you had not entered an "airside area" I am very doubtful you will have broken any rules. In my view the most she could have done was to ask you to leave.

[ATCO Fred]

I was just to the left of their terminal building, and when I was on the road I suspect it will be an airport owned road and not a public one? Shouldn't matter mind you because 99% of roads on airports are likely private and 99% of airport operators do not care!

Hi Cautious Optimist.

If you were here:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4720/40589918762_98a41d168a_z.jpg

Then you were next to this :

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4788/40589919132_ffccee4846_z.jpg

But come in and talk to the OPs staff and let us know. We are quite approachable but like to be respectful of the wishes of our customers; it's what we do :-). We're not bad-guys by design.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4758/39921796064_2549d0a7c6_z.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4648/40589960192_bf86f520a4_k.jpg

Best wishes Fred.

[Cautious Optimist]

Hmm, I think I was there...must be blind in one eye and can't see out of the other! Either that or the sign fell off!!

It's not that so much anyway as that you're the 'odd one out', if it's the wishes of your customers, how come the same/similar customers don't make the same wishes at other airports, or do other airports just ignore their wishes? Who knows.

Anyways I'm pleased to learn you are in fact friendly and apologies for missing the rather obvious signage!

[Planemike]

Also notice that ATCO Fred fails to make any mention of the actions of the security operative i.e. the one who compelled CO to delete his digital images.

[DaveReidUK]

Are there any airport byelaws to back up the No Photography prohibition?

If so, where can they be found?

[ATCO Fred]

Also notice that ATCO Fred fails to make any mention of the actions of the security operative i.e. the one who compelled CO to delete his digital images.

Hi Mike. . .. .it's not my place to comment on how a contracted company conducts its business. I would be miffed if they passed comment on my profession. I was merely providing some balance to the OP that the event took place on private property next to a sign that asked for permission prior to taking photographs.

Regards

Fred

[ATCO Fred]

Are there any airport byelaws to back up the No Photography prohibition?

If so, where can they be found?

Quick google . . . . .

In the UK, the laws does not prevent photography from a public place. However, airports in the UK are private, either in full and/or on land which is considered private property. Consequently, most ban photography, particularly in secure or security areas. When not in a secure area, and when done for personal, not commercial use, it's generally accepted. Pre-Customs Arrivals areas generally have security restrictions on electronic devices and photography.
To to be clear, while you do not need a permit to shoot in public places, public is a loose term: all land in the UK is owned, even if it's accessible at all times. Transport facilities (train, tube, plane) are private and have rules about taking photos.
Where some get the notion that photography is barred is under the 2000 Terrorism Act, which added prohibitions on taking photographs in secure areas and of airport staff.
And the over-zealous individual had no authority to do so. Only the police can challenge you, as has been made very clear by the Met.
You can be stopped by security and asked not to take photos, and you can be removed from the property by them, but they cannot physically prevent you from taking pictures, nor can they take your equipment, look at your photos, delete (or force you to delete) any images.

Cautious - if you have any issues and want to discuss further then just PM me.

Regards

fred

[DaveReidUK]

That hasn't answered the question of whether Oxford actually has byelaws prohibiting photography.

But it's good that you have acknowledged that forcing the OP to delete his photos was done without any authority to do so.

[Hotel Tango]

I think that it should also be mentioned that many airports or FBOs handling executive aviation have, in the interest of granting their customers more privacy (from the press more than spotters), taken steps to hinder the possibilities of taking pictures close to the terminal. Many of those travelling on private jets don't particularly want to be seen and photographed getting on or off. Many of the large FBOs in the USA now have high walls around their ramp areas just for that reason. Photographing these aircraft away from the ramp is generally never a problem.

[Planemike]

Just one small aside here: spotters/photographers of aircraft generally do not want people of any description in their shots. Tends to differentiate them from the "paparazzi"....!!

[KelvinD]

Here is a question: "Where is a photograph?" Sounds silly, I know but in a situation where the photographer is outside of a fence and the photo taken is within the airport fence, which rules apply? Is the photograph deemed to have been taken where the camera is located, a public place, or is it deemed to have been taken at the source of the reflected light (aircraft in this case), within the confines of a a private place?

[Planemike]

Here is a question: "Where is a photograph?" Sounds silly, I know but in a situation where the photographer is outside of a fence and the photo taken is within the airport fence, which rules apply? Is the photograph deemed to have been taken where the camera is located, a public place, or is it deemed to have been taken at the source of the reflected light (aircraft in this case), within the confines of a a private place?


Hmmm......bit of an esoteric question!! Becomes even more so if you think about photographs taken from a drone...

[DaveReidUK]

Here is a question: "Where is a photograph?" Sounds silly, I know but in a situation where the photographer is outside of a fence and the photo taken is within the airport fence, which rules apply? Is the photograph deemed to have been taken where the camera is located, a public place, or is it deemed to have been taken at the source of the reflected light (aircraft in this case), within the confines of a a private place?

Have a wander round the outside of the perimeter fence at Aldermaston and your question will be answered. :O

[N707ZS]

Many years ago we drove a car into the open area of Boscombe Down and photographed the lightning that is/ was there and some visiting F1-11s. We accepted the telling off from security. They then told us where we could go.

[Planemike]

Nicely..... I trust !!!!

[Planemike]

ATCO Fred............ You have a PM. Signed PM

[Hotel Tango]

Just one small aside here: spotters/photographers of aircraft generally do not want people of any description in their shots. Tends to differentiate them from the "paparazzi"....!!

Very true, but for Security a camera is a camera! Paparazzi also tend to walk around in anoraks holding notebooks. ;)

[ATCO Fred]

That hasn't answered the question of whether Oxford actually has byelaws prohibiting photography.

But it's good that you have acknowledged that forcing the OP to delete his photos was done without any authority to do so.

Hi Dave . . . I think you'll find I did no such thing as you have alluded to above . . . . . I have made no comment on the actions taken by security and the deletion of images and never will.

it's not my place to comment on how a contracted company conducts its business





In relation to the deleting of images I merely quoted open source reporting of the internet. It clearly states UK laws; the airport is private property.

Quick google . . . . .

Quote:
In the UK, the laws does not prevent photography from a public place. However, airports in the UK are private, either in full and/or on land which is considered private property.

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law#Private_property

See Legal restrictions on Private property.



The only reason I posted was to add balance and highlight that the incident took place on private property in an area clearly signed as restricted for photography. NOTE restricted not banned.

Thanks all

[DaveReidUK]

Hi Dave . . . I think you'll find I did no such thing as you have alluded to above . . . . . I have made no comment on the actions taken by security and the deletion of images and never will.

I was referring to the quote in your post:

nor can they take your equipment, look at your photos, delete (or force you to delete) any images.

That sounds to me like an acknowledgement that it was done without authority, but if I have misunderstood you, I apologise.