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funfly
27th Feb 2018, 12:11
So, even if he had no gun, he would have run into a building where a nut case was spraying bullets from an automatic assault rifle and killing dozens of people.
And when in there he would have done what?
However the one man (it was three actuallly) who was not suicidal enough to enter the killing zone has been labeled a coward. Place me with him in a simmilar situation.

PDR1
27th Feb 2018, 12:41
So, even if he had no gun, he would have run into a building where a nut case was spraying bullets from an automatic assault rifle and killing dozens of people.

Indeed. It's just surprising that such an obviously brave and heroic man should have put so much effort into dodging the draft for Vietnam - you'd have thought he'd have been out there in the jungle, taking point and catching grenades...

PDR

NutLoose
27th Feb 2018, 12:48
My thoughts entirely PDR.

The man is a muppet, never mind, he may get a chance to jump in front of his secret service detail to prevent them taking a bullet.

The word scapegoat comes to mind

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/26/florida-deputy-who-didnt-enter-school-during-mass-shooting-is-not-coward-lawyer-says.html

Once he got to the building, Peterson said he “heard gunshots but believed that those gunshots were originating from outside of any of the buildings on the school campus."
“BSO trains its officers that in the event of outdoor gunfire one is to seek cover and assess the situation in order to communicate what one observes with other law enforcement," the statement said.
He said he was the first Broward deputy to dispatch on police radio shots were being fired, and he told a first-arriving Coral Springs officer he “thought that the shots were coming from outside.” That arriving officer then took up a tactical position behind a tree with his rifle.
“Radio transmissions indicated that there were a gunshot victim in the area of the football field, which served to confirm Mr. Peterson’s belief that the shooter, or shooters, were outside,” according to the statement.
SEVERAL BROWARD DEPUTIES WAITED OUTSIDE DURING FLORIDA SCHOOL SHOOTING, REPORT SAYS (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/24/several-broward-deputies-waited-outside-during-florida-school-shooting-report-says.html)
He also said he “had the presence of mind” to have school officials review cameras at the facility “to locate the shooter" and obtain a description for law enforcement.
Peterson resigned last week after Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel accused him of failing to confront the shooter.
and the bitching has started

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/27/fox-news-first-email-urging-deputies-to-defend-florida-sheriff-uncovered-hope-hicks-to-testify-on-russia.html




..

PDR1
27th Feb 2018, 12:56
I've just had a complain from the muppets, alleging defamation...

PDR

Captivep
27th Feb 2018, 13:29
I think we can all agree that Trump would not have the courage to run into a place dedicated to education...

anchorhold
27th Feb 2018, 14:04
Are we sure the security gaurd was not armed, even so a glock would be no match for a assault rifle.

oxenos
27th Feb 2018, 14:58
Surely, the foot problems which got his draft deferred would have prevented him from running into the school?

B Fraser
27th Feb 2018, 15:22
The lardy-arsed moron couldn't run if he tried, never mind into a dangerous situation. I remember during the election that he claimed that he would be the most physically fit president in history. Obama should have challenged him to a 10k jog.

11277m
27th Feb 2018, 17:07
Is this the president who always seems to travel in a pretty much bomb proof car and is never without a protective circle of security goons, even when at home?

I guess he would ask to borrow a gun from one of his secuirity people and say "let me go in, I'm the expert, and also I'm a much better shot as well a being a lot braver than you"

B2N2
27th Feb 2018, 17:49
spraying bullets from a SEMIautomatic assault rifle and killing dozens of people.
And when in there he would have done what?
However the one man (it was four actuallly) who was too cowardly to enter the killing zone has been labeled a coward.

Fixed a couple of things for ya...yer welcome...no charge.

broadreach
27th Feb 2018, 19:32
I think we can all agree that Trump would not have the courage to run into a place dedicated to education...

HOW can you POSSIBLY say that Captivep! Have you forgotten his connection with that centre of higher education excellence, Trump U?

FakePilot
27th Feb 2018, 19:36
Did any of you hear the speech? Nope. He said he'd "run in there as would the others in this room" (governers conference)

Unfortunately no one knows if they'd really run in there, and he admits as much.

broadreach
27th Feb 2018, 19:44
Did any of you hear the speech? Nope. He said he'd "run in there as would the others in this room" (governers conference)

Unfortunately no one knows if they'd really run in there, and he admits as much.

FakePilot, I certainly did and I suspect most others on here did as well. There's no making excuses for him.

vapilot2004
27th Feb 2018, 20:13
https://youtu.be/I8Umj580ls0?t=164

West Coast
27th Feb 2018, 20:25
VAPA

Refresh my memory, what were the comments you made about what you’d do if you were in the same position as that officer that day?

Hempy
27th Feb 2018, 20:30
Did any of you hear the speech? Nope. He said he'd "run in there as would the others in this room" (governers conference)

Unfortunately no one knows if they'd really run in there, and he admits as much.

Your use of quotation marks tells me that you must have listened to a different speech.

Fcux4JawwP0

Of course Cadet Bonespurs gallantly fought his own personal ‘Nam against the ferocious VD during Op Studio 54.

s-pxw3yomCY

Turbine D
27th Feb 2018, 20:52
Thinking about how he might possibly run in, would his golf cart fit through the door? Just asking ;)

G-CPTN
27th Feb 2018, 21:03
Wouldn't his security detail ensure that any threats were neutralised before he was allowed anywhere near the schoolroom?

vapilot2004
27th Feb 2018, 21:04
Well, protecting the president, no matter how moronic and divisive he may be, is their job.

rotornut
27th Feb 2018, 21:05
It's TRUMBO: https://www.worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/german-daily-turns-trump-into-rambo-after-afghan-policy-reversal

vapilot2004
27th Feb 2018, 21:13
Stallone on Trump, during the campaign:

“I love Donald Trump, he’s a great Dickensian character. You know what I mean? There are certain people like Arnold, Babe Ruth, that are bigger than life. But I don’t know how that translates”—he let out a laugh—“to running the world.”

West Coast
27th Feb 2018, 21:30
but I feel strongly that if I was in that deputy's shoes, I certainly would have went inside that school in an attempt to stop the killer and protect those kids' lives.

Vapa, your quote from the 23rd about what you think you’d have done. Does it differ that far from Trump’s statement? He at least said he wasn’t sure. I’ll give you credit that you’d ponder acting, why can’t you do the same for your President?

vapilot2004
27th Feb 2018, 21:36
WACA:

First of all, the man is an idiot. Secondly, I doubt he would run anywhere, except perhaps in pursuit of some tail, and even then judging by his dough boy figure, he'd likely run out of steam by the fourth step. Third, he's a draft-dodging coward and referred to openly here as "Cadet Bone Spurs".

Finally, do you honestly think Trump would do what he said? I mean for one thing, the school was in a blue district, they voted for Hillary Clinton, many of the survivors and victims have Hispanic sounding surnames, and when was the last time you can recall this man doing something selfless, brave and righteous?

PS: I'm not on public trial here. Trump is. Can we limit the discussion to that?

str12
27th Feb 2018, 21:58
B2N2

I assume you weren’t actually there so how can you label someone a coward without tactical knowledge of the situation? Would you follow your president’s claimed behaviour and enter the building, unarmed, against an assault rifle? And do what exactly? The Police and Military are not trained to take needless risks.

Personally, I think Trump is a wimp, probably a coward, and honestly, no one on this planet really believes way he would go into that school even if he was armed to the teeth, he just doesn’t have the moral fibre. It is disgraceful that he is trying to make political capital out of this situation rather than comforting the families and trying to fix the problem by addressing gun control.

Your Constitution has been amended many times to reflect changes in society, maybe it is time to re-think the 2nd and stop a special interest group funded by industry from influencing your political system more then the people that it is actually designed to serve. Then you might move toward a real democracy.

Fly safe.

West Coast
27th Feb 2018, 22:22
What is WACA?

PS: I'm not on public trial here. Trump is. Can we limit the discussion to that?

Last I checked, anyone can be indicted in the court of public opinion, yourself included. You made similar comments to Trump’s so it’s fair to point that out given your criticism of him.

You said you’d have charged in to the school having never been tested in a battle situation. Why can’t the President have his own beliefs of the same? I wouldn’t spend much time trying to push a point that none of us know the answer to till we’re placed in that situation.

RatherBeFlying
28th Feb 2018, 03:17
All the police I see are in bullet proof vests, most of which one would like to think would stop bullets from an AR-15 - making the major mortality threat a head shot.

That kind of marksmanship from somebody running through a clip is unlikely, but it would only take one out of thirty.

The hope would be to sneak up close enough for a well placed pistol shot to incapacitate the shooter. You would definitely want the speaker on your mike off .

Running down the middle of a hallway would most likely just add you to the body count.

layman
28th Feb 2018, 04:59
A reality check ...
During the Martin Bryant shooting rampage at Port Arthur, one unarmed & very brave soul nearly wrestled the rifle off Bryant. However Bryant was able to keep pulling the trigger on his semi-automatic with his one free hand & eventually managed to wound, then kill his attacker.
Regards
layman

Jetex_Jim
28th Feb 2018, 05:35
SASless has been strangely quiet on this topic.

I'd like to hear from him.

Jetex_Jim
28th Feb 2018, 05:43
The man who hogs the brolly will take a bullet for somebody elses kid?

https://twitter.com/owillis/status/968337349708042241

West Coast
28th Feb 2018, 06:22
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSAKcKMncfY

Easily fooled Jim.

vapilot2004
28th Feb 2018, 06:44
SASless has been strangely quiet on this topic.

I'd like to hear from him.

Our Mr. SASless may have more pressing needs than schooling us on political matters. He has indeed been missing and I hope the man is doing well.

Easily fooled Jim.


That's funny, West Coast. I'm betting that Marine was honored to shelter his president from the rain and "look good" doing it, as Obama said. As far as Obama v Trump regarding showing love and caring for his family, Obama wins that contest by at least a light year or two.

Regarding Cadet Bone Spurs and crisis situations, I offer his own sentiments on a medical emergency in which he was present:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2vtbgcn.png
http://i64.tinypic.com/akdh5l.png



Even this avian raptor and beautiful symbol of our country appears to have good instincts about Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7_OWYrLVOU



Or perhaps his rather (un) catlike reactions at one of his rallies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zErgz09dESs

West Coast
28th Feb 2018, 07:33
That's funny, West Coast. I'm betting that Marine was honored to shelter his president from the rain

Or being a good Marine, he just did his job, irregardless of the political party the President represented.

Funny enough, umbrellagate was concurrent with another of Obama’s “I had no clue” moments, the IRS affair of which he said I had no idea of it till I saw it on the news. He got a lot of mileage out of that line.

NutLoose
28th Feb 2018, 13:08
The first thing Trump would have done is to phone his lawyers to check if the school involved had a lawsuit against him.

nonsense
28th Feb 2018, 14:37
Apparently Trump believes (at least this five minutes) that to stop a bad guy with a gun, a good guy with a gun is not necessary; a bad president without a gun is sufficient.

WhatsaLizad?
28th Feb 2018, 15:03
Observations from comments on this thread.


-Trump made an idiotic statement


-The weapon was semi-automatic, not automatic


-I'm certainly not an expert, but the vests worn by the officers probably would not stop the AR15 round


-Preliminary info is the armed School Police Officer was a gutless coward. Nothing has countered that initial assessment. Notice that he did not enter the school and move to place himself between the gunman and the students even if he thought the shooter was on the football field. There are plenty of other situations (if not most of the time) where an Officer shouldn't storm a potential shooting situation without additional armed Officers with weapons heavier than handguns. A school full of children isn't one of them. He earned is money as a sheepdog, but acted like one of the flock.

charliegolf
28th Feb 2018, 15:23
A reality check ...
During the Martin Bryant shooting rampage at Port Arthur, one unarmed & very brave soul nearly wrestled the rifle off Bryant. However Bryant was able to keep pulling the trigger on his semi-automatic with his one free hand & eventually managed to wound, then kill his attacker.
Regards
layman

Given he got past the business end of the rifle, had said brave soul had a pistol at the ready, he woulda won, no?

But we also don't know the effect of shouts of "Armed Police"* from the cops would have had on the Florida boy. He'd have been watching his back for sure, and is now not unfettered in his work. Maybe.

CG

*looks silly when read, but the knowledge that the cavalry has arrived etc....

Curious Pax
28th Feb 2018, 15:53
Given he got past the business end of the rifle, had said brave soul had a pistol at the ready, he woulda won, no?


Hmm - probably took 2 hands to grapple the rifle, which could make the pistol bit a bit awkward.

PDR1
28th Feb 2018, 16:01
Hmm - probably took 2 hands to grapple the rifle, which could make the pistol bit a bit awkward.

Surely a skilled and experienced special-forces expert like Trump would have held the pistol in his teeth, pulling the trigger with a flick of his well-practiced tongue...

PDR

charliegolf
28th Feb 2018, 16:43
Hmm - probably took 2 hands to grapple the rifle, which could make the pistol bit a bit awkward.

Of course. My point was more that (and I don't even know if the guy was a cop) since he got THAT close, had he been armed he would have shot the shooter. And if so, then transposing to the Florida sitch, where we know he WAS armed...

I was a primary head for 20 ish years, and had just been promoted at the time of Dunblane. It, and other nut-jobs have caused me to think on the (very slim) possibility of an attack at my school often, and hard. Clearly I never had to face the reality, but I never came to a conclusion other than it would be preferable to be dead than to live with the children in my care dead instead. Let the mocking and second-guessing commence.

CG

Bergerie1
28th Feb 2018, 17:40
CG,

I salute you - you are right and I hope I would do the same. But wonder if I would have the courage.

vapilot2004
28th Feb 2018, 18:48
Bergerie & CG, you guys are both class acts. :ok:

Or being a good Marine, he just did his job, irregardless of the political party the President represented.



I salute him. He seems a bit young, so perhaps his first wet work assignment?

West Coast
28th Feb 2018, 22:04
Marines of all ages learn to adapt, improvise and overcome.

West Coast
28th Feb 2018, 22:07
Let the mocking and second-guessing commence.


Not from me, I applaud your stance.

NutLoose
1st Mar 2018, 02:29
-Preliminary info is the armed School Police Officer was a gutless coward. Nothing has countered that initial assessment. Notice that he did not enter the school and move to place himself between the gunman and the students even if he thought the shooter was on the football field. There are plenty of other situations (if not most of the time) where an Officer shouldn't storm a potential shooting situation without additional armed Officers with weapons heavier than handguns. A school full of children isn't one of them. He earned is money as a sheepdog, but acted like one of the flock.

Actually if you read the thread I did in post 3, no one goes into a situation like this blindly, it will have been rehearsed and a plan will be in place for the school involved, unfortunately blowhards like the US president spout off before the facts are fully known or understood and the press then run with that over and over again, regardless of the truth or facts. I for one hope an enquiry will finally reveal the truth of what happened without making assumptions and scapegoats so that tragedies like this will not happen again.

As for the Marine and the Brolley, I don't get it, I bet it is seen by him and the Marine Corp as an honour to be serving in the White House and he should be justifiably proud, it may not be seen as the normal duties of a Marine serving his Country, but Serving his Country he is and he should be justifiably proud of that fact no matter what derogatory comments, end of the day he is a Marine and has qualified and serves in a Corp few will ever attain.



..

WhatsaLizad?
1st Mar 2018, 02:44
Actually if you read the thread I did in post 3, no one goes into a situation like this blindly, it will have been rehearsed and a plan will be in place for the school involved,


I'll agree that this is the situation most of the time, even with hostages.


I school with thousands of students at risk? Sorry friend, some situations like this one demand immediate action. This guy signed up for the possibility of something like what happened.


There wasn't time for a "rehearsed" plan of action. He needed to move in and "rehearse" his plan microseconds before acting.


I realize that this blows the minds of some here.

vapilot2004
1st Mar 2018, 02:48
As for the Marine and the Brolley, I don't get it, I bet it is seen by him and the Marine Corp as an honour to be serving in the White House and he should be justifiably proud

I'm not disagreeing, NL, but I can tell you that while many may indeed enjoy the prestige and honor of a White House posting, more than a few members of our military that I know that have served in that building disliked their billet, leaving aside the dreaded "desk job" concerns, if only because they were required to always be in full dress uniform, which is a bit of a pain and some would even say, impractical, to wear to work every day.

NutLoose
1st Mar 2018, 10:33
There wasn't time for a "rehearsed" plan of action. He needed to move in and "rehearse" his plan microseconds before acting."Rehearsed" as in the school will have practised for the eventuality before the event, I should imagine there are very few schools in the US that haven't a plan in place and have ran through it to ensure it works and people are where they should be for given scenarios, teachers locking classrooms with pupils inside, barracading doors, escape procedures in place, especially after the first couple of incidents, to have not planned for that happening at their school would be negligent.

If in that plan the scenario is for an outside shooter, logically he would take up a position outside the school to cover it and protect those inside from an intruder trying to breach the perimeter, which is what he says he was instructed to do and the radio calls reported appear to back up. But as said a report on it all will find the failings and hopefully prevent it elsewhere.

If your shooter is believed in the building then yes you would enter, but if he is believed to be on the grounds, you would not go looking for him away from the building and allow yourself to be drawn away from those you are protecting, you would be their last line of defence, so you would assume a position to protect the building entrances etc and await the cavalry to deal with the threat.

funfly
1st Mar 2018, 14:51
Just seen some people in the US interviewed by the BBC as to whether they would 'go in' and a remarkably large percentage said that they personally would have gone into the school even if they were not armed.
Oh yea?

WhatsaLizad?
1st Mar 2018, 15:18
Nutloose.
Thanks for clarifying.
We'll have to wait for the final report. Hopefully it will be accurate.

RAT 5
1st Mar 2018, 15:44
Are schools going to have a central door locking systems similar to that activated by fire alarms, but more widespread. i.e. a lockdown design. If there had been better surveillance the shooter might have been spotted before entry and found himself isolated in a lockdown corridor black, with no escape, and all classrooms locked down. When the siren sounds all personnel bolt for a room as all doors will be in lockdown. The delay timing is critical as you don't want personnel locked outside safe areas, or gunman locked in with hostages.
Not easy, but just a thinking point.

How did the shooter enter undetected with an assault rifle? They are not small. There seems to be a CCTV system, but was it monitored? Arming guards, or staff is only part of a full security solution.

lomapaseo
1st Mar 2018, 15:55
Just seen some people in the US interviewed by the BBC as to whether they would 'go in' and a remarkably large percentage said that they personally would have gone into the school even if they were not armed.
Oh yea?

like thunderstorms, you wait until the noise stops before going outside to see if a tree got hit

Jetex_Jim
1st Mar 2018, 17:33
Just seen some people in the US interviewed by the BBC as to whether they would 'go in' and a remarkably large percentage said that they personally would have gone into the school even if they were not armed.
Oh yea?


With Trump as a role model the national sport becomes bullsh*ting.

megan
2nd Mar 2018, 05:42
a remarkably large percentage said that they personally would have gone into the school even if they were not armedThey might change their minds had they the experience of being on the receiving end of a weapon.

layman
2nd Mar 2018, 08:00
charliegolf - your #36

My use of Port Arthur/Bryant as an example was reflecting on the likely (adverse) outcome of a confrontation between an unarmed person & someone armed with semi-automatic with high capacity magazine.
Both being armed is quite a different scenario
Fortunately for us, that is a scenario that has not occurred in Australia since 1996
regards
layman

PDR1
2nd Mar 2018, 08:11
Are schools going to have a central door locking systems similar to that activated by fire alarms, but more widespread.


Of course any such system would need to be automatically ("intrinsically" in the language of safety-critical systems) overridden by the fire alarm to make it impossible for people to be trapped in the event of a fire.

And THAT means that all the Rambo-wannabe has to do is pull the fire alarm as he goes in, releasing the lock-down and negating the point of the system.

All this "lockdown and surveillance" stuff is just tinkering with the symptoms. The disease is the gun-obsessed psychosis and to treat that route cause you need a gunectomy.

PDR

TWT
2nd Mar 2018, 08:14
They all trip the fire alarms now. Just part of the M.O. these days.

PDR1
2nd Mar 2018, 08:27
And of course not all teachers are safer when armed (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/376218-student-at-school-where-teacher-fired-gun-i-dare-you-to-tell-me)...

PDR

G-CPTN
2nd Mar 2018, 10:22
And of course not all teachers are safer when armed (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/376218-student-at-school-where-teacher-fired-gun-i-dare-you-to-tell-me)...

Clearly, a case of mental illness and the teacher should have been deprived of his weapon(s).

WingNut60
2nd Mar 2018, 11:13
Clearly, a case of mental illness and the teacher should have been deprived of his weapon(s).

You would hope so.
But the incident then raises two further questions, in my mind anyway.

1) Did anyone know that he had mental / stress / anxiety problems? And especially, was he under treatment for same.

2) If not, would annual medicals have identified the problem in time for effective intervention?

PDR1
2nd Mar 2018, 11:18
and:

3) Are annual medicals a mandatory part of a teacher's employment package, and indeed would such a requirement violate constitutional rights?

PDR

charliegolf
2nd Mar 2018, 12:07
and:

3) Are annual medicals a mandatory part of a teacher's employment package, and indeed would such a requirement violate constitutional rights?

PDR

Not in UK.

Edited to add... Going over the edge can be in the blink of an eye. My Deputy head of years had 2 days off in al the time I knew him. One for a funeral, and the other when I ordered him home due to the physical (flu) state he was in. He felt marginalised by my replacement over 2 years, and went off with stress overnight 2 days into a new spring term. He was off for a year with severe anxiety, shrinks, pills, the lot. Now he just went sick- yer man in Georgia maybe chose a different release. My point- you don't know when a snap will come. Of course, had my man been a gun owner- you'd hope the system at that poin and beyond would revoke his licence.

CG