No profit share target.....yet.

[Nedul]

I seem to remember a verbal commitment to set a ps target for later in the year. Anyone know if this has happened yet, or has it been overlooked along with my pay rise!

[fatbus]

Pay review is in May. Profit share is a joke

[Turbokite]

Talking of profit Share!

KLM splits record earnings with staff; 30,000 to share ?170m - DutchNews.nl (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2018/02/klm-splits-record-earnings-with-staff-30000-to-share-e170m/)

[White Sausage]

Talking of profit Share!

KLM splits record earnings with staff; 30,000 to share ?170m - DutchNews.nl (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2018/02/klm-splits-record-earnings-with-staff-30000-to-share-e170m/)

But then again, this is a REAL airline...

[fliion]

I seem to remember a verbal commitment to set a ps target for later in the year. Anyone know if this has happened yet, or has it been overlooked along with my pay rise!

IF it’s EK you are referencing- the financial year ends 31/3/18.

The target is set for following year after results of preceding year are announced which is usually the third Thursday of April in HQ atrium. The Atrium email schedule is usually a precursor to a profit share announcement. Otherwise results that have not achieved the target are usually issued via Corp Comms on the third Tuesday of April - with no profit share.

There was no target this year.

In the last three years the pay review was emailed on these dates:

2016 - 2/6/16
2015 - 25/5/15
2014 - 16/6/14

Verbal commitment? Go on.

[sealear]

Since there was no target, yet there is (likely) a massive profit.... What does that mean? Nothing?

[Oldaircrew]

Nedul is right, in the annual report covering letter dated 11/05/17, he states that they have decided “not to set a profit share target for 2017-2018 just yet, given the current ambiguity and complexity in our markets worldwide. We will review this later in the year”

[TURIN]

Well I hope its better than BA
£1.77B profit.
Staff get a bonus of 1.4% of basic pay.

[cerbus]

Fatbus Profit share is a joke....

Just like this airline and operation.
We better get a pretty hefty pay raise (12-15%) and 4-6 weeks profit share. If anything less even the pilots that like Emirates will start to realize they are nothing but being used and abused by an airline that doesn’t appreciate its pilots.

[TangoUniform]

Just to add to the mix, Delta just shared $1 billion with its employees. Works out to be an average of around 13% of total salary. Something wrong here with this airline not making massive profits.

http://news.delta.com/tags/profit-sharing

[Nedul]

Nedul is right, in the annual report covering letter dated 11/05/17, he states that they have decided “not to set a profit share target for 2017-2018 just yet, given the current ambiguity and complexity in our markets worldwide. We will review this later in the year”
Thanks Oldair
That's what I was alluding to.
Is it an oversight or a statement of intent.....?
I think I know the answer to that one.

[nolimitholdem]

In a twisted way it's probably the one time the region/company's supreme pride, arrogance, and pathetic fear of losing face work in your favour...they can't have those unionized US and Euro carriers crowing about giving out big bonuses when they don't, can they! :}

It makes one wonder: if companies based in places with things like labour laws and legal due process can make a fortune in profit, how can you possibly not make money somewhere you have a cheap, compliant and easily exploitable workforce?

[TangoUniform]

In a twisted way it's probably the one time the region/company's supreme pride, arrogance, and pathetic fear of losing face work in your favour...they can't have those unionized US and Euro carriers crowing about giving out big bonuses when they don't, can they! :}

It makes one wonder: if companies based in places with things like labour laws and legal due process can make a fortune in profit, how can you possibly not make money somewhere you have a cheap, compliant and easily exploitable workforce?

And that is probably one of the most accurate statements ever on the Prune.

[givemewings]

The bigger joke is that if profit share is not paid due not reachung the target, somehow the bonuses to management can still be paid. To me they should go hand in hand. If the airline didn't make profit there shouldn't be any bonus!

Let's not start on the varying calculations used to give different employee groups different amounts. (Some get on entire salary while others only on basic)

A true "profit share" should be X amount of profit divided by Y amount of employees giving an equal pay out to all.

[glofish]

It makes one wonder: if companies based in places with things like labour laws and legal due process can make a fortune in profit, how can you possibly not make money somewhere you have a cheap, compliant and easily exploitable workforce?

Maybe because they operate a different fleet?? :hmm: (bracing .....) :}

[Airbubba]

Just to add to the mix, Delta just shared $1 billion with its employees. Works out to be an average of around 13% of total salary. Something wrong here with this airline not making massive profits.

Not all of the U.S. airlines are sharing the big bonus bucks but the Deltoids are sure leading the pack this time around :ok::

For Delta pilots, the best paid line employees at any airline, this results in quite a sizable payout. According to union figures, based on 2017 earnings and profit-sharing numbers, Delta captains will receive a whopping $29,000 to $59,000, depending on tenure. In comparison, a United captain will receive between $9,300 to $20,500 in profit-sharing bonuses, while American Airlines captains will receive a measly $3,600 to $7,500.

A union representative at American is, unsurprisingly, not happy that the other guys are getting all the money. “The profit sharing pool at Delta is an Olympics-size pool,” he said. “American’s is a kiddie-size pool.” (Not that pilots are exactly starving, in general. Their salaries have risen significantly in recent years, at least for those with more seniority.)

https://thepointsguy.com/2018/02/american-airlines-pilots-are-mad-delta-colleagues-are-getting-all-the-money/

[CaptainChipotle]

Just to add to the mix, Delta just shared $1 billion with its employees. Works out to be an average of around 13% of total salary. Something wrong here with this airline not making massive profits.

Profit Sharing | Delta News Hub (http://news.delta.com/tags/profit-sharing)

15.1%... ...but who's counting?

[Joker11]

Bahahahaha. I think we will see flying taxis before we get a profit share. I don't have high hopes anymore.
Maybe EK will prove me wrong this year. Even better. Maybe we get another "Free" ticket for Happiness Day!

[LHR Rain]

The company has to give us a Profit Share and a pay raise just to attract new joiners and the dreaded DECs. If not who in their right mind would join this outfit? 1000 hour Turbo Prop pilots? Oh wait we have already done that.

[lfbb]

https://image.ibb.co/hNZDSc/81_A697_EA_CC9_C_4_BFE_BE79_5416_E1_A500_E3.jpg

[ChocksOn]

I seem to remember a verbal commitment to set a ps target for later in the year. Anyone know if this has happened yet, or has it been overlooked along with my pay rise!

The Profit share target is +1 AED of actual profit :E

[Laker]

Not all of the U.S. airlines are sharing the big bonus bucks but the Deltoids are sure leading the pack this time around :ok::



https://thepointsguy.com/2018/02/american-airlines-pilots-are-mad-delta-colleagues-are-getting-all-the-money/

True. But to be fair to AA mgt they did give a small profit share, 8% pay raise, and industry leading duty rigs outside of negotiations. Not sure if that’s ever happened in US aviation. A 777 CA at 80 hours/month is making +$380k and a 737 CA +$310k when you include 401k contributions. With the duty rigs it will take a max 15 days working to reach 80 hours pay. The pay isn’t equal to Delta but it’s far from bad.

[Joker11]

https://image.ibb.co/hNZDSc/81_A697_EA_CC9_C_4_BFE_BE79_5416_E1_A500_E3.jpg

Sums it up perfectly!

[Joker11]

A "Free" ticket for Happiness Day!

[Joker11]

Yes happy to get one extra SRC subload.
Just would like some time off to use it!

Exactly what I said to a colleague this morning!

[harry the cod]

Joker11

Guess you must be impressed.....you've mentioned it on three threads now!

Harry

[sealear]

Great another ticket that I won't use

[Joker11]

Joker11

Guess you must be impressed.....you've mentioned it on three threads now!

Harry

Got to appreciate the small things in life Harry!

Cheers mate!

[aeropix]

Title was truncated, its UDS $462 million...In the first half of the 2017-2018 financial year, profits rose 111 percent to AED 1.7 billion ($462.8 million).

This "first half" result already exceeds last year's whole-year profit of "only" AED 1.3 billion

“It’s going to be better than last year in general,” Sheikh Ahmed told local media at the launch of a GE Aviation support centre in Dubai South on Tuesday, declining to give further details.

Emirates expects improved results this year, says Sheikh Ahmed - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/transport/391995-emirates-expects-improved-results-this-year-says-sheikh-ahmed)

[Impala]

In other words we will get double of what we got last year!

[aeropix]

results of preceding year are announced which is usually the third Thursday of April in HQ atrium. The Atrium email schedule is usually a precursor to a profit share announcement. Otherwise results that have not achieved the target are usually issued via Corp Comms on the third Tuesday of April

Well, it’s the third Thursday in April and the silence from the bouncy castle is deafening. Unusual to have neither the profit share extravaganza NOR the “Its been a tough, challenging year...” letter by this point.

[Lynx8]

They know that we know what they know.
Hence no need to spend energy on any sort of letter.
The happy day with a Subload ticket was a plus.
BTW has any one tried to book/enquiry a shipping company for house relocation from second week of May to end of August back to Europe for instance?
All the containers are fully booked and it has never happened before.
i wonder why....

[Emma Royds]

The amount of profit as far as I am concerned is insignificant. What is significant is the proportion of profit that is earmarked to be returned to the ‘shareholder’, (using STC terminology). I doubt the vast majority of us will never be privy to the real ‘dividend’ which influences what is left for us.

[Don Corleone]

Well, it’s the third Thursday in April and the silence from the bouncy castle is deafening. Unusual to have neither the profit share extravaganza NOR the “Its been a tough, challenging year...” letter by this point.

At least for the last 2 years profits were announced 2nd Thursday in May.

[pumpkin]

At least for the last 2 years profits were announced 2nd Thursday in May.

So here is a question for you, if one was to resign a week before the 2nd Thursday in May, then they would receive no bonus ?(should it by miracle actually happen)- I ask because section a) in this part of the staff regulation manual would imply that one would not receive it :

When notice of termination of Contract of Employment is given by either party, the company will apply a complete
freeze on any changes to the employee's employment terms, and any previously planned promotion will not be
implemented. This principle will be applied as follows:
a. If an employee resigns prior to the 'effective' date of a pay review, he will not be entitled to receive an annual
or merit pay review, or changes as a result of a general pay review of scales, benefits etc., whilst serving
notice (regardless of the date of implementation of any such review).
b. If an employee resigns after the 'effective' date, but has already left employment prior to the
'implementation' date of the pay review, he will not normally receive the annual or merit pay review.
c. If an employee resigns after the 'effective' date and is still in employment at the time of implementation of
the pay review, he may receive the benefit of some or all of the pay review. However, such pay review benefit
will only be granted to employees who work the full term of their contractual notice period, unless the
Country Manager or Line Manager indicates in writing that the notice period is waived.

[harry the cod]

pumpkin

The pay review contract is a different agreement to the requirements for receiving profit share. The manual you quote relates to a salary review and has nothing to do with profit share.

Harry

[pumpkin]

pumpkin

The pay review contract is a different agreement to the requirements for receiving profit share. The manual you quote relates to a salary review and has nothing to do with profit share.

Harry

Ah thanks Harry. I cannot find anywhere in the manual the requirements for retaining profit share. Do you know what the stipulations are or where I could find them? Would be grateful :ok:

[givemewings]

Unless it's changed, you must be employed in the date the profit share is paid out to receive it. Believe that part is in the ERM.

I was told this includes notice period and the VX days however I can't find that in writing. However since you still hold your ID until LDS technically you are still employed until you hand it over...

[mmmbop]

It would make for a very interesting state of affairs if no profit share and no pay rise occurs after STC admitted for the first time a shortage of pilots. I suspect you'll get both, and one of them will be substantial. Well, I hope you do!!

[dustyflightdeck]

It would make for a very interesting state of affairs if no profit share and no pay rise occurs after STC admitted for the first time a shortage of pilots. I suspect you'll get both, and one of them will be substantial. Well, I hope you do!!

Except that he went on to say that the shortage is only temporary as 170 cadets are on the way. So there is little hope.

[Monarch Man]

Tim, is merely reflecting what he thinks needs to be said publicly, it’s called managing the message.
The shortage continues as Jet 2 and O’leary take people back and encourage more to return to first world rules and regulations.
Don’t expect any change, they, the ninth floor, would rather continue to park airframes than admit their colossal ineptitude.

[kipper the dog]

I think expectations need to be managed here, otherwise there will be a lot of unhappy and angry people. Personally I think we would be lucky to just get the step - I would be amazed if we got anything on top of that and certainly no bonus.
Hope I am wrong but as we all know greed is king around here, and their hatred of pilots is borderline obsessive.

[The Outlaw]

KTD,

I am a little more optimistic ! My guess is that everyone will see 4 to 6 weeks and a step increase, perhaps even an additional ALT. It won't be from their generous nature but rather out of full scale necessity or else STC's "wee tad short of pilots" will turn into "we have a wee tad of pilots". However, they will put an equal amount of attention to keeping that money on their shores which they seem to have achieved starting May 1 amongst many other rate and fee increases.

Dnata, Dubai Airports and all the shops that fall under the brand are the real money makers so it only makes sense that that try to capitalize on areas where there is potential for profit. From a financial perspective it's my guess that EK has had a good year. QR and the un-named one have no doubt lost passengers to EK, cargo appears to be up and loads still seem high (assuming the yields are there as well).

[MusingMonk]

KTD,

I am a little more optimistic ! My guess is that everyone will see 4 to 6 weeks and a step increase, perhaps even an additional ALT. It won't be from their generous nature but rather out of full scale necessity or else STC's "wee tad short of pilots" will turn into "we have a wee tad of pilots". However, they will put an equal amount of attention to keeping that money on their shores which they seem to have achieved starting May 1 amongst many other rate and fee increases.

Dnata, Dubai Airports and all the shops that fall under the brand are the real money makers so it only makes sense that that try to capitalize on areas where there is potential for profit. From a financial perspective it's my guess that EK has had a good year. QR and the un-named one have no doubt lost passengers to EK, cargo appears to be up and loads still seem high (assuming the yields are there as well).

...LOL....

[Joker11]

We got the SRC. Nothing more to be expected...

[trimotor]

From someone who knows someone who knows someone...6% for pilots only and no profit share/bonus..I hope I'm wrong..

TM

[Joker11]

From someone who knows someone who knows someone...6% for pilots only and no profit share/bonus..I hope I'm wrong..

TM

I hope so. Cause people will lose it. Two years in a row no profit share. Other airlines are paying out huge bonuses. People are working themselves to the bone in this place. Clearly for nothing.

[Omlette]

Think the lack of target will be down to concerns over June/July loads, keeping some $$ back.

Think we will certainly get bonus, no managing of expectations this year. Heard from a few decent sources we will get one but as to amount, no one knows and rumours are just that.

[Stjuk]

No invitation to annual result presentation = no profit share...

Maybe next year

[Bigblue88]

No invitation to annual result presentation = no profit share...

Maybe next year


chill out! It doesnt have to be on a Thursday. Look back over the last few years emails. 2016 it was sent on a Tuesday. Expect it some time early next week for around 10th May. People are so quick to jump to conclusions.

[SOPS]

But Harrry said it would be a big one ?

[exekcabincrew]

Isn't it strange that a company like Emirates doesn't have a profit target? There should always be a target. Otherwise how are you gotta measure the performance? There has to be something to compare it to. My guess is that the management will just reveal the numbers that are convenient to justify whatever they want to do to profit share..

[harry the cod]

Bugger off SOPS, I never said that! I said we'd get one, there's a difference. 2-3 weeks is my bet.

I only tell my wife it will be a big one but she always ends up disappointed.

Keep walking them dogs fella.....I might be joining you soon if this Company doesn't start getting its act together......

Harry

[The Outlaw]

Bugger off SOPS, I never said that! I said we'd get one, there's a difference. 2-3 weeks is my bet.

I only tell my wife it will be a big one but she always ends up disappointed.

Keep walking them dogs fella.....I might be joining you soon if this Company doesn't start getting its act together......

Harry

No sense in waiting Harry, might as well get the dogs now!

[cerbus]

Harry is thinking of leaving the sinking ship? You know it’s bad here if he is thinking of leaving.

[Emma Royds]

Lets just hope that what our friends at FlyDubai recently received, (a few extra AED per hour flight pay) is not indicative of what's around the corner for us at EK.

Personally speaking, I am not holding my breath!!!

[SOPS]

Harry is thinking of leaving the sinking ship? You know it’s bad here if he is thinking of leaving.

That was exactly what I thought when I read it 😄😄, and I was down the park with the dogs at the time!

[RK Blue sky]

That was exactly what I thought when I read it 😄😄, and I was down the park with the dogs at the time!


I’m still amazed at how many pilots think everything is wonderful here. I even press them and ask if they have any complaints about the company or it’s treatment of us and they say “no”. I really can’t believe what comes out of some pilots mouths and not everyone I ask is South African.
Most of the pilots I ask have been here for a number of years so they have seen the deterioration and yet they refuse to say anything truthful if it comes out negative. A much more honest answer would be “yeah it sucks here but I can’t go home.” Or “yeah it sucks here but my wife likes that she doesn’t have to work.” Or better yet “this place sucks but we’re just tying to get our kids through school then I’m outta here.” All depressing but truthful answers that are acceptable and don’t set off any alarms with other pilots that you’re sharing a cockpit with.

[donpizmeov]

Maybe you should just give them a list of answers you think are acceptable before asking the question. You don't think you may be the one with the problem? The others seem happy here so stay. But you seem unhappy here, yet still stay. They may be a bit nervous sharing a cockpit with you. Ya never know.

[RK Blue sky]

Well Don if I’m the problem they are free to kick me off the trip. At this point it would be a blessing.
Judging by the amount of very experienced pilots that are leaving the airline and have left the airline and the quality and quantity of pilots that are trying to join Emirates I don’t think I’m the one with the problem. And yes I’m actively trying to get that coveted Delta interview and it can’t come soon enough.
If you think nothing is amiss here than have at it. Just tell your crew beforehand but I think you’re just trying to whine us up because I believe you are intelligent enough to realize that things here are more than a tad askew. Just ask all the pilots that have left (Sops, etc) and have their applications out. They are more than the pilots that say everything is great here, thankfully. Even Harry is considering leaving if things don’t get better. Doesn’t that speak volumes to the pilot group?

[SOPS]

In fairness to Harry..I really think his comment about leaving was "tongue in cheek". (But, Harry, I know a good breeder mate, if you want me to put in an order for you!)

[donpizmeov]

I think Harold met one of those in BKK SOPs.

[SOPS]

I will pay that Don !!!!!!!

[pilotguy1222]

From an "experienced" laden room in RTGS last week, HH has booked Atrium time at EGHQ.

Now, I am wanting my 6 weeks and 11%??!!

[mmmbop]

Don't you think that if you are holding on to a single event to somehow make you happy then there are very big warning signs out? Each year it is the same - "Yeah if we get X% pay rise and Y weeks bonus then that'll make this all worth it." No, it really won't. I've been out of EK for 8 months. It took me 5-6 months to develop a good sleeping pattern again. God knows what over 7 years working the way I did in that place has done to my long term health. But the simple fact is X + Y does not = 'worth it.'

The irony is many pilots speak exactly the same way about working at EK as battered housewives do that are in abusive marriages. But still they stay, thinking it'll get better.

[Joker11]

Oh boy oh boy. I am having sleepless nights. What do you guys think we will get?

[DuneMentat]

Oh boy oh boy. I am having sleepless nights. What do you guys think we will get?
A kick in the a**, a slap in the face and a push down the stairs most likely..

[givemewings]

The irony is many pilots speak exactly the same way about working at EK as battered housewives do that are in abusive marriages. But still they stay, thinking it'll get better.

It really is like a bad relationship, you convince yourself you can get through it, having no idea how bad it really was until you are out. Personally I didn't realise how bad it was ( I knew it was bad, but ot THAT bad) until I was home, went to a therapist to work through some issues that EK/Dubai brought up and he told me he saw signs similar to PTSD. I can now say they also eroded my confidence somewhat, the whole management/hierarchy environment, reporting culture, snitching, petty flight reviews etc made me start to doubt my abilities and second guess decisions that formerly I would have had no problem making. I worked in a leadership position before and both in teams and alone in the aviation environment. And I am lucky, I was a strong person to start with so they didn't get me all the way down. Now Imagine someone with a more sensitive/less assertive personality. Luckily I am in a place where real assistance is available and I already see/feel improvement. No 'got my license from a weeties box' docs here. Nor pushing mental health issues under the rug and telling you to 'manage your sleep'

no wonder they are leaving in droves and there is definitely a mental health crisis within the CC community at least, if not the pilots. I have heard of families affected as well.

NOTHING is 'worth it', no amount of money they can throw at me would ever make me come back.

Sorry for the side rant, but yes the comment re: abusive relationship is spot on.

[allaru]

Would have to concur 1000% with GiveMeWings...you don't realise how bad it was until you leave and the rest is totally accurate, very damaging.

Will have to disagree with DuneMentat however as I think a kick in the nuts , and a red hot poker in the B#m hole to send you on your way to your next Madras turnaround is more likely.

[Cantbebothered]

It really is like a bad relationship, you convince yourself you can get through it, having no idea how bad it really was until you are out. Personally I didn't realise how bad it was ( I knew it was bad, but ot THAT bad) until I was home, went to a therapist to work through some issues that EK/Dubai brought up and he told me he saw signs similar to PTSD. I can now say they also eroded my confidence somewhat, the whole management/hierarchy environment, reporting culture, snitching, petty flight reviews etc made me start to doubt my abilities and second guess decisions that formerly I would have had no problem making. I worked in a leadership position before and both in teams and alone in the aviation environment. And I am lucky, I was a strong person to start with so they didn't get me all the way down. Now Imagine someone with a more sensitive/less assertive personality. Luckily I am in a place where real assistance is available and I already see/feel improvement. No 'got my license from a weeties box' docs here. Nor pushing mental health issues under the rug and telling you to 'manage your sleep'

no wonder they are leaving in droves and there is definitely a mental health crisis within the CC community at least, if not the pilots. I have heard of families affected as well.

NOTHING is 'worth it', no amount of money they can throw at me would ever make me come back.

Sorry for the side rant, but yes the comment re: abusive relationship is spot on.

Exact same story here. Really did not realise how emotionally abused you are until you leave. The first two months went by and I was confused and lost. Then I started to get my act together and now its been 5 months and I am starting to feel like the old me. I can make decisions again. I can think straight and when I look back at all the things I assumed 'would get better or is not really that bad' I can't believe I did that to myself for so long.

[The Outlaw]

...LOL....


Originally Posted by The Outlaw https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/605878-no-profit-share-target-yet-3.html#post10128350)
KTD,

I am a little more optimistic ! My guess is that everyone will see 4 to 6 weeks and a step increase, perhaps even an additional ALT. It won't be from their generous nature but rather out of full scale necessity or else STC's "wee tad short of pilots" will turn into "we have a wee tad of pilots". However, they will put an equal amount of attention to keeping that money on their shores which they seem to have achieved starting May 1 amongst many other rate and fee increases.

Dnata, Dubai Airports and all the shops that fall under the brand are the real money makers so it only makes sense that that try to capitalize on areas where there is potential for profit. From a financial perspective it's my guess that EK has had a good year. QR and the un-named one have no doubt lost passengers to EK, cargo appears to be up and loads still seem high (assuming the yields are there as well).


Musing Monk...Still laughing? I believe 5 weeks falls between 4 and 6.





I

[Joker11]

Well.... its something.

[natops]

More interested in pay review...

[felixthecat]

Exactly.... let's see what the pay review has to say. Its the pay review that will help recruitment and aid retention. Without retention and recruitment, the attrition remains the same and the appalling lifestyle will not change

[Visual Procedures]

We're definitely "on course" for something.. is it an ice berg?

[dustyflightdeck]

Exactly.... let's see what the pay review has to say. Its the pay review that will help recruitment and aid retention. Without retention and recruitment, the attrition remains the same and the appalling lifestyle will not change
I agree the profit share is nice and welcome but never guaranteed so a pay rise is much needed if they expect people to keep coming here at the rate prices are going up!

[Wingman82]

You guys deserved the 5 weeks. However, I am happy to have left and yes I will miss the 777 and the profit shares. However, home sweet home there is nothing better and I have back my family life. This is the money you deserve for your hard work and no life. And your hundred of night flyings. Hope a good payrise will follow. Hang in there until you can leave.

[The Outlaw]

I can't seem to find the reference but has anyone else heard that the Dubai Airports staff received a 8 % increase to salary to cover cost of living?

[fatbus]

It's a fact , for all the hard work they have done!!!!