Future civilian tilt-rotor pilots: Will the industry want FW type transfers or RW?

[WillyPete]

I’m seeing more developments of the tilt in viable civilian use.
Is the industry likely to favour transitioning existing FW pilots to that type, or would they be better served by retraining rotary pilots?
I realised the obvious option would be to take retired ex-mil tilt rotor pilots, but not every country that will adopt civilian tilt rotors will have stock of ex-mil pilots to draw from, and the predominantly US pool will likely prefer to fly at home.

Do people think that these aircraft my find a slot by displacing some of the short haul fixed wing fleets or even corporate flights in more rural areas?

[Apate]

High operating costs will ensure that this commercial mode of transport will be a very niche market.

Replacing short haul - I say never ;)

We'll soon be celebrating the 609s 15th Birthday :E

[HeliHenri]

.
The certification of the 609 has just been delayed to the end of 2019.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aw609-certification-slips-again-to-end-2019-446030/
.

[GoodGrief]

Long long time ago I read somewhere that tilt pilots should be dual rated.
One of the ratings can be private.

Your best options would then be CPL(H) and PPL(A), me thinks.

[rudestuff]

Powered lift has been a separate category for decades, even though there's never been anything to fly...

[GoodGrief]

That's a given...

[Spunk]

First of al you have to finde someone who is willing to fly those things... I hope that I have retired by then (13 years to go, so chances are good for me).
:}

[Apate]

Powered lift has been a separate category for decades, even though there's never been anything to fly...

Exactly what rudestuff said :ok:

If you'd like more info, EASA FCL.720.PL states:

Unless otherwise determined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part21, an applicant for the first issue of a powered-lift type rating shall comply with the following experience requirements and prerequisites:
(a) for pilots of aeroplanes:
(1) hold a CPL/IR(A) with ATPL theoretical knowledge or an ATPL(A);
(2) hold a certificate of completion of an MCC course;
(3) have completed more than 100 hours as pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes;
(4) have completed 40 hours of flight instruction in helicopters;

(b) for pilots of helicopters:
(1) hold a CPL/IR(H) with ATPL theoretical knowledge or an ATPL/IR(H);
(2) hold a certificate of completion of an MCC course;
(3) have completed more than 100 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot helicopters;
(4) have completed 40 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes;

(c) for pilots qualified to fly both aeroplanes and helicopters:
(1) hold at least a CPL(H);
(2) hold an IR and ATPL theoretical knowledge or an ATPL in either aeroplanes or helicopters;
(3) hold a certificate of completion of an MCC course in either helicopters or aeroplanes;
(4) have completed at least 100 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot helicopters or aeroplanes;
(5) have completed 40 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes or helicopters, as applicable, if the pilot has no experience as ATPL or on multi-pilot aircraft.

[Um... lifting...]

Well, one might be well-served to ask where tilt-rotor pilots come from now (those that aren't already pilots). U.S. Marine Corps flight students last I knew went through a somewhat hybrid pipeline with primary single-engine airplane, a somewhat abbreviated advanced helicopter syllabus, and a somewhat abbreviated multiengine airplane syllabus. I would imagine that they're able to sit for and pass Commercial exams for both single & multi engine fixed, rotary and instrument prior to heading to the tilt-rotor fleet replacement squadron.

Anecdotal information from the Marine Corps some years ago tended to suggest that for pilots beyond ab initio doing transitions fixed-wing pilots were easier to untrain.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Marine_Corps_Aviation_Pipeline.jpg

[WillyPete]

Thanks for the info so far guys.

[Vertical Freedom]

Whilst doing my rotory theory back in the mid eighties our teacher Mr SD confidently told us that the tilt-rotors are the future of rotory aviation & by the time we have our CPH license we'll all need to be transitioning to the tilt-rotor :eek: 33 years later...............I'm still holding my breath for the tilt-rotors to hit mainstream :ugh:

[tu154]

The industry will want whatever is cheap. And by industry I mean the oil industry. Hence the rise of the H175. Don't know how a tilt rotor will compare in terms of cost, but that will be the key.

[Lonewolf_50]

Anecdotal information from the Marine Corps some years ago tended to suggest that for pilots beyond ab initio doing transitions fixed-wing pilots were easier to untrain. I am more than somewhat familiar with that flow chart and training model, having been involved in the early versions of it well over a decade ago. One of the bits of feed back we got from New River was a desire to rebalance the amount of rotary wing / multi engine from the first training track/syllabus that was put together. They wanted less rotary wing and more multi engine, on balance, than was originally in the training pipeline. What this has to do with "untraining" I'll not comment on, since that's one of those things about Tilt Rotor monkey skills that took some learning by the test pilots at Pax.

[Self loading bear]

The industry will want whatever is cheap. And by industry I mean the oil industry. Hence the rise of the H175. Don't know how a tilt rotor will compare in terms of cost, but that will be the key.

Not necessarily to be cheaper.
I think new niche markets have to be carved out.
Carving out niches will mean by definition that marketshare will be limited. But limited market share will not help to bring the price down.

For oil industry more deepwater further offshore will become within reach. (But deepwater Drilling itself is a bit out of fashion with current oil prices.)

HEMS in rural area’s will become possible. (I understood Flying doctors Australia might be one of the first customers) This will save time and lives so probably cheaper for insurance companies.
SAR cover can be extended.
But I do not think that governments want to voluntarily extended this.

Business aviation: time is money.
Eliminating the airport to switch from jet to helicopter would save time but is only valid up to the range of the tilt rotor which is relativly short compared to the large business jets.
Any other niches?

Cheers SLB

[Um... lifting...]

I am more than somewhat familiar with that flow chart and training model, having been involved in the early versions of it well over a decade ago

Ditto.

My untraining comment related to negative habit pattern transfer from rotorcraft as opposed to from multi engine airplanes for already experienced fleet aviators entering the V-22. Many found that surprising as it was opposite some expectations. Just an observation, and one that is no longer based on my own day-to-day experiences. In my time training some of the students in the rotorcraft part of the pipeline (probably about the same time you were involved) the balance of multi and rotor seemed to be a moving target.

[WillyPete]

Ditto.

My untraining comment related to negative habit pattern transfer from rotorcraft as opposed to from multi engine airplanes for already experienced fleet aviators entering the V-22. Many found that surprising as it was opposite some expectations.

That's interesting, and why I ended up posting this question in the first place.
I wanted to check my own assumptions.

I'm guessing that a lot of the issues were that the VTOL parts were largely fly by wire by now, and a majority of the flight time is going to be spent in ME fixed wing configuration.

What were the "bad habits" you noticed?

[ShyTorque]

Whilst doing my rotory theory back in the mid eighties our teacher Mr SD confidently told us that the tilt-rotors are the future of rotory aviation & by the time we have our CPH license we'll all need to be transitioning to the tilt-rotor :eek: 33 years later...............I'm still holding my breath for the tilt-rotors to hit mainstream :ugh:

Agreed, As a previously "Jet trained" military fixed wing pilot I remember first getting excited about flying "tilt rotors" just as I began my first tour on helicopters.

Thirty nine years ago....

Maybe my grandson will get to fly one...

[heliduck]

Don’t forget the golden rule - he who has the gold makes the rules. Will it be cheaper to train an experienced helicopter pilot to fly straight & level at altitude or to train a fixed wing pilot to transition into the hover & land in an unprepared area?
Irrelevant really, a lot of V22 pilots will retire from the military & take the jobs, then we’ll have another 2 generations of Pilots wondering when all the ex - military pilots are going to retire so they can get a job.

[roscoe1]

which of course nobody did.... if you want to fly these outside of the military, when they are actually available you should figure out what you need to do to fly for very wealthy people once you meet the actual qualifications. I can't imagine that despite the fact that tilt rotor technology isn't going to disappear that anyone will ever make money with one. I think the only people who will make any cash are the ones who buy production slots and then sell them before reality sinks in. Although, nothing wrong with having a dream. I know, I know, they poo pooed the telephone but I'm still waiting for a real jet pack......

[noooby]

Except for Era helicopters, who just ordered 2 AW609's for 2020 delivery.

[rrekn]

Didn't Bristow sign a similar agreement at HAI 3 years ago?


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bristow-endorses-aw609-for-commercial-ops-409721/

[Lonewolf_50]

Ditto.
In my time training some of the students in the rotorcraft part of the pipeline (probably about the same time you were involved) the balance of multi and rotor seemed to be a moving target. Yeah, it was. (HT-8 or 18?)

[noooby]

Didn't Bristow sign a similar agreement at HAI 3 years ago?


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bristow-endorses-aw609-for-commercial-ops-409721/

Not quite. The Bristow deal was only to assist with developing an offshore variant of the 609. There was no commitment to order any.

Era has also been helping with that, but has followed up with an order for two machines.

[rickseeman]

Powered lift has been a separate category for decades, even though there's never been anything to fly...

I remember when the category came out. To get your powered lift ATP you have to have 250 hours in powered lift. Now that is going to be hard to get.

[tottigol]

Well, one might be well-served to ask where tilt-rotor pilots come from now (those that aren't already pilots). U.S. Marine Corps flight students last I knew went through a somewhat hybrid pipeline with primary single-engine airplane, a somewhat abbreviated advanced helicopter syllabus, and a somewhat abbreviated multiengine airplane syllabus. I would imagine that they're able to sit for and pass Commercial exams for both single & multi engine fixed, rotary and instrument prior to heading to the tilt-rotor fleet replacement squadron.

Anecdotal information from the Marine Corps some years ago tended to suggest that for pilots beyond ab initio doing transitions fixed-wing pilots were easier to untrain.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Marine_Corps_Aviation_Pipeline.jpg
According to the NAVY training pipeline...
I am ready!:D

But then, I always knew it.:}