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Draft Dodger
20th Feb 2018, 09:31
Where I live I can see two road side instantaneous speed camera's which have been burnt. I guess by human intervention rather than technical fault. Anybody know why they never get fixed or have they been disguised by the powers that be to make you think they are burnt out, but are in fact fully operational.

Trossie
20th Feb 2018, 10:12
One speed camera has two things that have been burnt. What were those two things that were burnt that belonged to that one speed camera?

VP959
20th Feb 2018, 10:14
There was a spate of putting car tyres filled with fuel and setting them alight on speed cameras around here a few years ago. I don't think they ever caught the culprit, but we all assumed it was someone who'd been caught by one. It took years for some of the burned out ones to be replaced, but they did fit covers over them, presumably to both help protect what was left and indicate that the camera was out of action.

sitigeltfel
20th Feb 2018, 10:16
National sport here, although it doesn't always work as intended.

An Audi driver was clocked near here at 130kph in a 90kph zone by a fixed camera at 2am in the morning. Having seen the flash he went home, got a fuel container and an old tyre, then went to an all night fuel pump and filled the container.
He arrived back at the camera, put the tyre round the camera Winnie Mandela style, filled it with fuel and set it alight.

Three problems for him.
1, His car was the last one flashed.
2, The image is not retained in the camera, it is automatically sent for central processing.
3, He was also filmed on the CCTV of the nearby petrol station.

My numberplate was cloned a few years ago and I received a speeding fine. When I challenged it (a failed challenge gets a large fine) it was obvious I would succeed.
The car, despite being registered in France, has the steering wheel on the right and the only occupant of the car in the photo was in the left seat. A couple of other trim differences sealed the evidence and the fine was cancelled.

Trossie
20th Feb 2018, 10:23
There was a spate of putting car tyres filled with fuel and setting them alight on speed cameras around here a few years ago. I don't think they ever caught the culprit, but ...Was there any search for known ANC members in the local area? That was one of their specialities.

419
20th Feb 2018, 11:21
There was a spate of putting car tyres filled with fuel and setting them alight on speed cameras around here a few years ago.

https://www.wired.com/2007/12/burning-british/

ExXB
20th Feb 2018, 11:50
Speed Camera’s what?

Thomas coupling
20th Feb 2018, 11:50
The future is speed averaging - work a treat!

hailstone
20th Feb 2018, 13:16
indeed - be mindful in the Netherlands with the "Trajet Controlle" and in France it would also be very easy considering the Peage barriers

gemma10
20th Feb 2018, 13:33
I`ve been flashed three times in France in the last two years, not excessive speeding mind, just wasn`t aware where the cameras were. My point is I don`t believe there is any film in any of their cameras at all. It is alleged that GB has an agreement with Europe to provide details of addresses for law breakers. But as of yet I`m still waiting for the fines. Last camera flash was last November. :rolleyes:

4mastacker
20th Feb 2018, 15:16
There's a speed camera on the A52 between Grantham and Sedgebrook that has been attacked a few times. It now has its own, separate guardian camera mounted high up on a lamp post on the opposite side of the road plus plenty of signs warning of 24 hour monitoring.

glad rag
20th Feb 2018, 15:26
I`ve been flashed three times in France in the last two years, not excessive speeding mind, just wasn`t aware where the cameras were. My point is I don`t believe there is any film in any of their cameras at all. It is alleged that GB has an agreement with Europe to provide details of addresses for law breakers. But as of yet I`m still waiting for the fines. Last camera flash was last November. :rolleyes:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/05/british-motorists-continent-face-640-speeding-fines-saturday/

They fine us only...

galaxy flyer
20th Feb 2018, 15:46
I hope we never succumb to the Big Brotherism of speed cameras.

GF

old,not bold
20th Feb 2018, 15:48
Speed Camera’s what?I was wondering how long it would take for the apostrophe to be caught on camera.

Draft Dodger
20th Feb 2018, 16:28
Sorry about the apostrophe, I am only an ignorant pilot.

Thanks for the replies. It is interesting that as I pass these burnt/burned out cameras the traffic slows down just in case the camera is still working or is it just camouflage to make us think that the camera is not working. Whilst I agree that average speed cameras are the way forwards, for the authorities, it would be nice to know if these static cameras are going to be replaced, if damaged, or got rid of.

DaveReidUK
20th Feb 2018, 16:48
If a camera is, or appears to be, burned out then it's likely that it no longer conforms to the DfT guidelines on camera visibility.

off watch
20th Feb 2018, 17:29
True, DaveR, but then again many cameras have been placed in locations which did/do not comply with official guidelines - however there is a crafty get-out "This does not preclude cameras being placed at sites that do not meet the guidelines if they contribute to the overall strategy aimed at reducing road accident casualties."
They seem to have missed off the bit about raising revenue ................

Tankertrashnav
20th Feb 2018, 18:35
The future is speed averaging - work a treat!

I'd agree with that. The one nearly opposite my house is regularly passed by vehicles obviously doing well in excess of the limit. A mile or so down the road is a village with speed averaging set up to control the 30 mph limit. I drive through the village at least a dozen times a week, and in the 5 years the control has been in place I don't think I have ever witnessed a car doing over the limit.

vapilot2004
20th Feb 2018, 18:43
Any chance someone knows if the speed cameras are tied into the UK's famous (or is it infamous) surveillance system?

I hope we never succumb to the Big Brotherism of speed cameras.

GF

Cameras at stoplights are already pretty common in many states. Some are there for evidence in traffic accidents, others are used to cite red light runners.

Speed cameras are currently allowed in DC, the US VI, and 12 states. I've heard rumors some toll roads back east check your time in and out and if it goes outside of a certain limit, you can be cited, but I do not know of anyone that received such a ticket. EZ-Pass toll transponders can be disabled if you are caught going too fast through the toll gate in some states, but no citations are issued.

It may be interesting to note in California, freeways and heavily traveled roadways have traffic speed monitors built into the pavement. This is not for enforcement, but the data is reported to CALTRANS and shared with the public. It is great for knowing when certain routes are tied up with bumper to bumper traffic.

Dan Gerous
20th Feb 2018, 19:00
There were several decapitations of speed cameras on the A68 a few years ago. Whole camera units removed. I think some of them have been replaced.

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Feb 2018, 19:13
Any chance someone knows if the speed cameras are tied into the UK's famous (or is it infamous) surveillance system?
There's no such thing. There are lots of little systems, mostly run by local government.

vapilot2004
20th Feb 2018, 19:23
No kidding? I always thought they were all tied in and went to the MOD via the home office.

Perhaps one should avoid getting perceptions about these kinds of things from spy novels and movies.

4mastacker
20th Feb 2018, 19:31
There's no such thing. There are lots of little systems, mostly run by local government.

ISTR that during a court case, some evidence was produced which showed the route and timings of the fella who fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle, ran off the motorway and caused the Great Heck train crash. I believe the tracking was obtained from the ones which monitor traffic flow (Trafficmaster?).

RAT 5
20th Feb 2018, 19:43
2020 EU activates a highly accurate GPS satellite system. How long before all EU registered cars are required to have GPS tracker systems, allegedly to cut down on theft???????? And then???????

It would also do away with PNR cameras. I have heard they have helped solve crime, as have CCTV, in that they tracked peoples' movements and added to identification evidence. A good social use, one would think; catch the bad guys. Thin end of a long wedge, but with apathy being the biggest political party in most countries, who would bet against it.

After all, someone has to pay/contribute for he damned thing.

Fareastdriver
20th Feb 2018, 19:45
In Sichuan Province, China, there is a spur off the Chongqing-Chengdu Expressway that goes to Luzhao. When you come off the Chongqing bit you pay your toll and then after a few kilometres you come to the toll to continue to Luzhao. When you collect your ticket it has a coded time on it.

It is precisely sixty kilometres to the next toll and the limit is 120 kph. You are fined 20 yuan for every minute less than thirty minutes when you arrive

Sallyann1234
20th Feb 2018, 19:55
In Sichuan Province, China, there is a spur off the Chongqing-Chengdu Expressway that goes to Luzhao. When you come off the Chongqing bit you pay your toll and then after a few kilometres you come to the toll to continue to Luzhao. When you collect your ticket it has a coded time on it.

It is precisely sixty kilometres to the next toll and the limit is 120 kph. You are fined 20 yuan for every minute less than thirty minutes when you arrive
How very capitalist. You can drive as fast as you want to pay for.

Fareastdriver
20th Feb 2018, 20:08
How very capitalist. You can drive as fast as you want to pay for.

Unfortunately you have to park your car, go over to the police office and cough up. This entails a load of form filling and takes about half-an-hour.

ShyTorque
20th Feb 2018, 21:20
I've seen a few burned out cameras and would confirm that they couldn't be working afterwards.

The story I liked was a chap who, having been flashed by a speed camera, returned with an angle grinder and cut down the whole camera on its pole. He put the lot in the back of his Volvo estate with the intention of throwing it in the nearby sea. Unfortunately, he crashed his car on the way there and got caught in the act.

racedo
20th Feb 2018, 21:29
indeed - be mindful in the Netherlands with the "Trajet Controlle" and in France it would also be very easy considering the Peage barriers


Peage barriers are a myth as someone who did Paris - Calais in 2 hrs about 4 years ago. Cops were at Peage........................ have heard it so many times now and have yet to find someone caught and fined by it.

longer ron
20th Feb 2018, 21:48
The story I liked was a chap who, having been flashed by a speed camera, returned with an angle grinder and cut down the whole camera on its pole.

Somebody did that in Billingshurst,W Sussex some years ago istr ! although I think he just cut the mounting arm off the pole.

galaxy flyer
20th Feb 2018, 22:01
Any chance someone knows if the speed cameras are tied into the UK's famous (or is it infamous) surveillance system?



Cameras at stoplights are already pretty common in many states. Some are there for evidence in traffic accidents, others are used to cite red light runners.

Speed cameras are currently allowed in DC, the US VI, and 12 states. I've heard rumors some toll roads back east check your time in and out and if it goes outside of a certain limit, you can be cited, but I do not know of anyone that received such a ticket. EZ-Pass toll transponders can be disabled if you are caught going too fast through the toll gate in some states, but no citations are issued.

It may be interesting to note in California, freeways and heavily traveled roadways have traffic speed monitors built into the pavement. This is not for enforcement, but the data is reported to CALTRANS and shared with the public. It is great for knowing when certain routes are tied up with bumper to bumper traffic.

The use of toll timing has been debunked thoroughly. I’d long since been cited on several tollways. When they put up the gantries, both Patrick and his successor, Charlie Baker (best governor ever) wer3 at pains to say the electronic tolls wouldn’t be enforcement tools. The speed people went thru the old booths means they didn’t deactivate transponders, either. In my state, if you’re not doing 75-80, you’ll be rear ended. The record of red light cameras is mixed, mostly because they are fixed to maximize revenue. In some cases, caused read end collisions. Yes, Plano, TX has them, co-pilot got nabbed. It’s just money grab.

GF

ShyTorque
20th Feb 2018, 22:03
A local chap in our village (a so-called "security guard") was caught on a separate security camera, setting a speed camera on fire. The police knocked on his door to question him about the matter. Unfortunately for him, they also smelled the cannabis farm in his loft and he got two years in the nick. A nice own goal in all respects.

vapilot2004
20th Feb 2018, 22:10
The use of toll timing has been debunked thoroughly. I’d long since been cited on several tollways. When they put up the gantries, both Patrick and his successor, Charlie Baker (best governor ever) wer3 at pains to say the electronic tolls wouldn’t be enforcement tools. The speed people went thru the old booths means they didn’t deactivate transponders, either. In my state, if you’re not doing 75-80, you’ll be rear ended. The record of red light cameras is mixed, mostly because they are fixed to maximize revenue. In some cases, caused read end collisions. Yes, Plano, TX has them, co-pilot got nabbed. It’s just money grab.

GF

EZ-Pass is a private outfit, I think, and as such can do what they want, apparently. I agree with you on the rest, GF. I am against a machine used as a witness against me. I prefer to be wrongly accused by a living breathing human being. ;)

So far, in my three decades of operating a motor vehicle, I have yet to be cited for anything beyond a couple of parking tickets. Mother and big sis used to drive me to the airport because I was a student pilot well before I got my learner's permit.

MG23
20th Feb 2018, 22:20
The record of red light cameras is mixed, mostly because they are fixed to maximize revenue.

Don't forget that several cities have been found to have reduced the yellow light timing to increase the number of 'red light runners'.

In some cases, caused read end collisions.

I believe that happens in the majority of cases, particularly in those cities that have reduced yellow light times. The usual argument is 'yes, but well, you know, rear-end collisions are better than T-bones', even though the people who crash when someone slams on the brakes in front of them were unlikely to be going through the junction at the same time as a driver going the other way.

The majority of 'road safety' cameras are pure scams to bring in the $$$$.

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Feb 2018, 22:52
No kidding? I always thought they were all tied in and went to the MOD via the home office.
Nope. In our city even the police only get to see the recordings on request and with good reason, all of which is logged. Of course one of the main points of the system is to help the police, but it's not a police system, and they don't have anyone sitting permanently in the control room (or on the wire).

One of the more amusing stories I was told on my visit to the control room was a perp who had been spotted on camera, and had been followed round the town from camera to camera, with the control room guy on the radio to the police throughout, until the perp walked past the police station ... at which point a policeman walked out and arrested him.

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Feb 2018, 22:53
ISTR that during a court case, some evidence was produced which showed the route and timings of the fella who fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle, ran off the motorway and caused the Great Heck train crash. I believe the tracking was obtained from the ones which monitor traffic flow (Trafficmaster?).
Ah, I was talking about the CCTV you get around town, which I know something about, not motorway systems, which I don't.

galaxy flyer
21st Feb 2018, 00:36
Mother and big sis used to drive me to the airport because I was a student pilot well before I got my learner's permit.

That was me, Dad drove.

GF

Krystal n chips
21st Feb 2018, 04:36
No kidding? I always thought they were all tied in and went to the MOD via the home office.

Perhaps one should avoid getting perceptions about these kinds of things from spy novels and movies.

True, the UK has the deserved reputation for extensive surveillance but, there's a flaw here.

It's called the human being.

I can think of two cases where drivers covered a significant distance on our motorway network, driving erratically and at excessive speed, only for their travels to end in the fatalities of innocent people.

Moving on. Once upon a time, the A9 in Scotland was, basically, a death trap so, a new A9 was built. This was fine, for a while, but, unfortunately, when it was constructed the road was a combination of single / dual carriageway which, with the development of motor transport and traffic volumes became an equally lethal mix.

Thus, eventually, an upgrade to dual carriageway standard programme was instigated along with, and this is the bit which causes the " boot to the floor, sod the limits, I'm a safe and expert driver ! " brigade the most concern, Average Speed Cameras were put in place.

By a strange coincidence the accident rate started to fall !

It's difficult to miss the limits actually, because, as you can see, they are somewhat prominent along the route.

Speed Limit Information - Safety/Speed Limits - A9Road (http://a9road.info/safety-statistics/speed-limit-information/)

ExSp33db1rd
21st Feb 2018, 06:11
I've heard rumors some toll roads back east check your time in and out and if it goes outside of a certain limit, you can be cited,

Not speed but .... when the New York State Freeway opened many years ago, one haulage company found that they were spending a small fortune on toll fees, which were based on the length of the road that one had travelled, i.e. completing the whole journey from New York to Albany, or v.v. cost a lot of money, whereas if one exited half way along for instance the fee was proportionate to the distance travelled, so .. they arranged for a truck heading South to meet a truck heading North halfway between New York and Albany, and the drivers exchanged the tickets that they had picked up at the start of their journey, then each took the last exit before the North or South end of the whole Freeway, so only paid for a very small part of the whole - clever.

This of course was in the days before number plate cameras, or even tickets bearing the registration number, or time, but I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a similar sort of scheme to beat the average speed gadgets.

vapilot2004
21st Feb 2018, 06:45
Nope. In our city even the police only get to see the recordings on request and with good reason, all of which is logged.

Thank you GtW. Your story gave me a chuckle. :ok:

This of course was in the days before number plate cameras, or computer coded tickets, but I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a similar sort of scheme to beat the average speed gadgets.

I did a little reading on these gizmos and assumed they used RADAR or LIDAR, but was surprised to learn the system IDs the cars and calculates the time between camera locations. Not exactly a fair fight.

At least with a human officer, you had an outside chance at getting off on a warning, or in the case of a Concorde pilot, possibly an excellent chance.

That was me, Dad drove.


Ah. My father was TDY quite a lot, which might explain a few things on how I turned out, GF. ;)

Cheers, KnC.

DaveReidUK
21st Feb 2018, 07:07
I did a little reading on these gizmos and assumed they used RADAR or LIDAR, but was surprised to learn the system IDs the cars and calculates the time between camera locations. Not exactly a fair fight.

Calculating your average speed isn't rocket science. What's unfair about it?

vapilot2004
21st Feb 2018, 07:40
Fair fight as in fishing, I suppose. One cop vs many motorists is akin to the fish vs the fisherman. There was always a good chance some would get away. With the cameras, the protection of speeding (swimming) in groups (schools) is no longer there.

Ogre
21st Feb 2018, 07:42
It might explain why some of the speed and red light cameras around here (well in some of the more salubrious areas anyway) now have a 360 degree camera mounted above them...

Fliegenmong
21st Feb 2018, 08:12
Average times would never be in introduced in Australia....that may stop people from speeding.....then where's the revenue going to come from?

RAT 5
21st Feb 2018, 08:57
Revenue earning speed cameras are one thing. They catch you in an instance of distraction. 3-5mph for a tad. Not reckless by intent, not negligent, not vicious or anti-social, just a little distraction for seconds. Bam. £20 don't do it again.

But no. You are penalised with points and raised insurance and and and as if you are a child beater. Out of all proportion.
If you are reckless in driving, i.e. pre meditated then the book gets thrown, but for different reasons.

You can mug a granny, steal a loaf of bread and be treated more leniently than +5mph for 2 seconds. Daft.

Pinky the pilot
21st Feb 2018, 09:34
Average times would never be in introduced in Australia..

Sorry Fliegs me old! Hate to have to disillusion you but here in South Australia there are already two 'point to point' sets of cameras which do precisely that.:sad:
One set is on the 'Fatchen Expressway', a road which bypasses the City of Elizabeth, on the way to Adelaide.

The other has a camera just outside the eastern side of Waikerie, and the one completing the set is about 10km to the west of Barmera. The whole trip scanned would be about 20km.

The equipment setup buildings are a small brick blockhouse, maybe 4 metres square, surrounded by razor wire topped fences and no doubt, security cameras.

old,not bold
21st Feb 2018, 09:54
Quote:
Originally Posted by vapilot2004
Any chance someone knows if the speed cameras are tied into the UK's famous (or is it infamous) surveillance system?

There's no such thing. There are lots of little systems, mostly run by local government. You might have been thinking of the now extensive use of ANPR cameras on most motorways and major roads in the UK, which record every single vehicle movement and store the data indefinitely. Each Police force is responsible for doing this in its area of operation. ("Lots of little systems"; true, but it's a national initiative.)

The decision to set this network up was taken by the infamous ACPO, with litttle or no democratic input, when it still existed, and as far as I know is being steadily extended. It has little to do with speed cameras, except that when speed averaging is in use the cameras record and store the numbers of every vehicle, and thereby are part of the overall surveillance. I have seen estimates that a vehicle being driven on a typical 100-mile journey (ie mostly on major roads/motorways) is recorded at least 30 times, regardless of where in the UK that journey is.

To learn more about what is going on, see this. (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/surveillance-camera-commissioners-speech-to-the-anpr-national-user-group-2015) Read it very carefully, if you care about civil freedoms.

How we have allowed ourselves to be led, unprotesting, by a bunch of policemen into this Orwellian situation is beyond me. But it has happened.

Trossie
21st Feb 2018, 10:49
I was wondering how long it would take for the apostrophe to be caught on camera.
View the second post on this thread as an 'average camera'!

eal401
21st Feb 2018, 12:01
The future is speed averaging - work a treat!

Average speed cameras, the only type of speed camera that serves a genuine road safety purpose.

Edited to add that I love driving on roads with average speed cameras and watch the people who brake for each camera. Clearly not getting the point at all....

galaxy flyer
21st Feb 2018, 12:26
You might have been thinking of the now extensive use of ANPR cameras on most motorways and major roads in the UK, which record every single vehicle movement and store the data indefinitely. Each Police force is responsible for doing this in its area of operation. ("Lots of little systems"; true, but it's a national initiative.)

The decision to set this network up was taken by the infamous ACPO, with litttle or no democratic input, when it still existed, and as far as I know is being steadily extended. It has little to do with speed cameras, except that when speed averaging is in use the cameras record and store the numbers of every vehicle, and thereby are part of the overall surveillance. I have seen estimates that a vehicle being driven on a typical 100-mile journey (ie mostly on major roads/motorways) is recorded at least 30 times, regardless of where in the UK that journey is.

To learn more about what is going on, see this. (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/surveillance-camera-commissioners-speech-to-the-anpr-national-user-group-2015) Read it very carefully, if you care about civil freedoms.

How we have allowed ourselves to be led, unprotesting, by a bunch of policemen into this Orwellian situation is beyond me. But it has happened.


I read the link, positively mad! And itcame under the Protection of Freedoms Act. Orwellian, too.



Gf

dastocks
21st Feb 2018, 12:45
Average speed cameras, the only type of speed camera that serves a genuine road safety purpose.

Edited to add that I love driving on roads with average speed cameras and watch the people who brake for each camera. Clearly not getting the point at all....

There is a long stretch of the A9 north of Endinburgh which has these cameras every few miles.

If you reset one of the counters on the trip computer every time you pass a camera you just have to be sure the average speed is within the limit before you get to the next camera. This means you can easily travel at 20+ mph over the posted limit for quite long stretches on clear road after overtaking slower vehicles and not get caught by the cameras.

dastocks
21st Feb 2018, 13:15
You might have been thinking of the now extensive use of ANPR cameras on most motorways and major roads in the UK, which record every single vehicle movement and store the data indefinitely. Each Police force is responsible for doing this in its area of operation. ("Lots of little systems"; true, but it's a national initiative.)

[general paranoia snipped]

How we have allowed ourselves to be led, unprotesting, by a bunch of policemen into this Orwellian situation is beyond me. But it has happened.
The Police ANPR network *could* be used for speed enforcement but this would involve routinely disclosing where the cameras are, which might work against the main objective which is crime investigation. On the other hand the cameras are very easy to spot, and there isn't any real attempt made to hide them.
As I understand it ANPR is rarely used to provide hard evidence in a criminal prosecution, but it does give the police a huge nudge in the right direction when investigating a lot of crime. On balance I would say the advantages justify its deployment, and I know of cases where ANPR evidence played a key part in detecting fraud and malpractice within the police service itself.

andytug
21st Feb 2018, 13:27
Our local dual carriageway has 3 miles of average speed cameras, caught 2300 people doing over the 50 limit in the first 3 months. Top speed between two cameras 101mph. No reduction in accidents yet as they are caused in the main by traffic pulling out of side roads when not enough room to do so. No cameras for that.....

Captivep
21st Feb 2018, 13:30
There is a long stretch of the A9 north of Endinburgh which has these cameras every few miles.

If you reset one of the counters on the trip computer every time you pass a camera you just have to be sure the average speed is within the limit before you get to the next camera. This means you can easily travel at 20+ mph over the posted limit for quite long stretches on clear road after overtaking slower vehicles and not get caught by the cameras.

Or, of course, you could set your cruise control to the appropriate limit and not have to think about speeding up and slowing down! Improves your fuel consumption too...

VP959
21st Feb 2018, 13:33
After a serious road accident (no injury to me, thankfully) Hampshire Police agreed to drive me home to Wiltshire in order to take a statement and do the required checks that I wasn't intoxicated. The screen in their car was picking up number plates all the time, and at a guess it flagged up a warning for no insurance, no tax or whatever about every 3 or 4 minutes, using ANPR and some form of data link in the car. The two officers in the car ignored it, but it was a bit of an eye opener as to how many cars were being driven around unlawfully, and how easy it was for the police to catch them if they wanted to. This was on main roads, too, part of the M3 and part of the A303.

DType
21st Feb 2018, 14:28
Captivep
Getting past a crawling juggernaut or two is definitely safer if you are "free" to floor the throttle for a few seconds.
Cruise control is seldom an option on the A9.

rogerg
21st Feb 2018, 14:32
Captivep
Getting past a crawling juggernaut or two is definitely safer if you are "free" to floor the throttle for a few seconds.
Cruise control is seldom an option on the A9.
Cruise control does not stop you from "flooring the throttle".

MG23
21st Feb 2018, 15:20
Average speed cameras, the only type of speed camera that serves a genuine road safety purpose.

Exactly what 'genuine road safety purpose' do they serve?

ShyTorque
21st Feb 2018, 15:30
I have first hand experience of ANPR being out of date, especially after putting a vehicle back on the road after a while of it being declared "SORNed". I now carry copies of my certificates of insurance in my cars.

Thomas coupling
21st Feb 2018, 15:35
Average speed cameras are just that.

Ignore them if you think you are better than average, I say.

UniFoxOs
21st Feb 2018, 15:45
Cruise control does not stop you from "flooring the throttle"

True - but if you have set your cruise control at the speed you want for the cameras, your average will be end up too high. On roads like the A9 cruise control is off much more that it is on. What I'd like as an average speed app, linked to the GPS, on my smartphone, so I could get my speed back to the right average after being held up or flooring the throttle to get a quick safe overtake.

DType
21st Feb 2018, 16:07
rogerg
Can't follow a crawling juggernaut in cruise control mode.
Anyway, if you floor the throttle with cruise control engaged, your average speed will be greater than the cruise setting. After overtaking, you have to disengage it and slow for a suitable distance. It's a real guessing game. Wish my average speed instrument display could handle that one.

ExXB
21st Feb 2018, 17:33
... and that kind of erratic driving makes it bad for the rest of us.

M.Mouse
21st Feb 2018, 18:06
Can't follow a crawling juggernaut in cruise control mode.

Many cars now have adaptive cruise control and will follow at a set distance from the vehicle in front.

Anyway, if you floor the throttle with cruise control engaged, your average speed will be greater than the cruise setting. After overtaking, you have to disengage it and slow for a suitable distance. It's a real guessing game. Wish my average speed instrument display could handle that one.

What is wrong with just settling back to the speed limit? The odd burst of acceleration, having been following a vehicle at below the limit, will certainly not cause you to exceed the average speed for the length of road.

Andrewgr2
21st Feb 2018, 18:08
My Tomtom GO500 displays my average speed through average speed camera zones. No button pressing required.

vapilot2004
21st Feb 2018, 18:49
To learn more about what is going on, see this. (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/surveillance-camera-commissioners-speech-to-the-anpr-national-user-group-2015) Read it very carefully, if you care about civil freedoms.

How we have allowed ourselves to be led, unprotesting, by a bunch of policemen into this Orwellian situation is beyond me. But it has happened.

Thank you for that link, Old, not Bold. In the states, we have police cruiser mounted cameras that also record license plates as cars whiz by. It is an overreach by the government in the hopes of keeping us "safer". That's a double edged sword to be sure. I would rather have the freedom to travel incognito around the country, but I would also have given up my privacy, if it would have prevented 11 September.

The private sector is not immune to this. Modern connected cars can bear witness against us, as do our smartphones. It has been suggested that companies like Apple know far more about their customers habits than the Orwellian governments under which they live.

On the subject of red light cameras, many that I know of have been placed at their chosen locations due to the number of accidents that occur and depending on the size of the jurisdiction, one or more fatalities is often the trigger that leads to their installation.

Dan Gerous
21st Feb 2018, 19:03
I have seen some very long convoys on the A9 due to the average speed cameras. There is always someone who is to scared to overtake a slow moving vehicle, such as a lorry, consequently causing a huge tailback. On one trip on the A9 I started counting the vehicles coming the other way, and they were roughly 24 vehicles in each convoy. The worst was 53, with busses and lorries thrown into the mix. Then of course you come to the dual carriageway sections, and it's wacky races to get past all those slow moving vehicles. Just to add, on the A9, the single carriageway is average speed cameras, the dual carriageways have speed camera signs, and you can get the foot down on them before you hit the single carriageway again.

KelvinD
21st Feb 2018, 19:17
I well remember my time in Germany when getting stuck on an Autobahn at the end of a huge long line of trucks, with a single car overtaking them at a speed of 1km/hr above the truck line's speed!
My German friends used to joke about the "NL" sticker on the car meaning "Nur Langsam" (Only slowly).

vapilot2004
21st Feb 2018, 19:33
When I lived in Germany, I knew you got yourself out of the left lane with great haste when you saw a big Merc or similar coming up behind you at a high rate of speed. Friend's cars have even been "bumped" on the autobahn for not moving to the right quick enough.

In the states, left lane hangers are quite common and cause traffic woes for miles behind them. Some states have enacted laws in an attempt to keep slow drivers out of the fast lane.

andytug
21st Feb 2018, 19:44
UK passed a law to stop middle lane hogs last year. Hasn't made a blind bit of difference as there are next to no police cars to enforce it.....

DType
21st Feb 2018, 20:14
Perhaps they should have made it an offence to drive in such a way that one can be undertaken?
Normally, the "offender" gets off, and the "victim" gets prosecuted.
Have undertaken many cars on the M6, me at a strict 70 in the left lane, them sound asleep at 60ish in line astern in the 3rd lane, middle lane empty. What should I have done - moved over two lanes, waited patiently, eventually flashed my lights, generated lots of road rage, etc., etc.???

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Feb 2018, 20:14
watch the people who brake for each camera
Why oh why do people choose to do all that extra (and pointless and unnecessary) work? Why not just set the cruise control to the speed limit, and go to sleep until you reach your destination?

galaxy flyer
21st Feb 2018, 20:20
I would rather have the freedom to travel incognito around the country, but I would also have given up my privacy, if it would have prevented 11 September.

First, there’d have to be some proof that trading one would have prevented 9/11 or a future one. I can’t see where these intrusions have the slightest effect. More like, government (wanting to employ surveillance); says, “citizens we’re using surveillance for your safety” and we roll over. We should refuse it with a middle finger at those busybodies.

There was a time when Franklin’s quote about trading security for liberty was a popular bumper sticker hereabouts. With the election of Obama, they went away.

GF

M.Mouse
21st Feb 2018, 20:34
I can’t see where these intrusions have the slightest effect.

A good friend of mine retired from the UK Metropolitan Police having attained a fairly senior rank in the CID. During his career his most satisfying role was working in Criminal Intelligence, a role restricted to 4 years to help avoid corruption within the unit (it may have changed in the intervening years).

He was clearly unable to divulge anything specific to me because his work was highly sensitive but he would talk in general terms. Two things of interest were that the computers used within the unit were NOT in any way, shape or form connected to the internet and that they used camera and mobile phone networks to track individuals they had under surveillance.

It is always a balance between civil liberties and government control. I believe that the majority of police officers are decent individuals. Unfortunately the few let down the many and coupled with my innate distrust of politicians the degree of surveillance of us all in the UK makes me very uncomfortable.

ExSp33db1rd
21st Feb 2018, 20:50
At least with a human officer, you had an outside chance at getting off on a warning, or in the case of a Concorde pilot, possibly an excellent chance.


Not a Concorde Pilot, but .... driving on a Singapore freeway one afternoon, I missed the exit I needed, so stopped and reversed .... straight into the arms of a M/cycle cop coming along behind, that I hadn't noticed. What you do ? Sorry, but I missed the turn off. Then go long next exit and come back. Yes, but it's 5.25pm and I need that shop down there before 5.30, here's my licence, please be quick. When I first arrived I had no permanent address, and the licence agency accepted my using the airline HQ address, so .... You SIA pilot ? Yes. You fly your aeroplane backwards ? No. Then don't drive your car backwards, piss off ( or words to that effect ) Won one.

Cpt_Pugwash
21st Feb 2018, 21:04
I've held off adding to this thread until now,as I am due to attend a NSAC in March (NIP for exactly 10%+2).
The main issue I have with the system relates to the civil liberties aspect mentioned above and the use of ANPR data.
I am old enough to recall when vehicle licensing was in the hands of local authorities, and then was centralised to the DVLC (as was) in Swansea. The motoring organisations and press made a big deal of this aspect, such that questions were asked in Parliament, to which the then Transport Minister, Marples I think, gave an undertaking that the data would be used solely for vehicle taxation purposes and would not be shared with other computer systems, notably the PNC which was just coming on stream at Hendon.
Well, we know how that turned out.

DaveReidUK
21st Feb 2018, 21:23
Not a Concorde Pilot, but .... driving on a Singapore freeway one afternoon, I missed the exit I needed, so stopped and reversed .... straight into the arms of a M/cycle cop coming along behind, that I hadn't noticed. What you do ? Sorry, but I missed the turn off. Then go long next exit and come back. Yes, but it's 5.25pm and I need that shop down there before 5.30, here's my licence, please be quick. When I first arrived I had no permanent address, and the licence agency accepted my using the airline HQ address, so .... You SIA pilot ? Yes. You fly your aeroplane backwards ? No. Then don't drive your car backwards, piss off ( or words to that effect ) Won one.

It happened at 4:55 pm last time you told that story. :O

racedo
21st Feb 2018, 21:32
As I understand it ANPR is rarely used to provide hard evidence in a criminal prosecution, but it does give the police a huge nudge in the right direction when investigating a lot of crime.


What day a year do they do that.

MG23
21st Feb 2018, 21:42
First, there’d have to be some proof that trading one would have prevented 9/11 or a future one.

The US government knew more than enough to have stopped 9/11 before it happened: people had reported the hijackers' strange behaviour to them, and that should have been enough to catch them. But the government were just as incompetent as usual and completely failed to do anything effective (or, if you believe the conspiracy theorists, the government deliberately let them carry out their attack to justify a crackdown on the American people).

And we already see with most post-9/11 terror attacks that the people who committed them were already known to the government, but, again, the government had completely failed to do anything about it. Because the more surveillance they carry out of law-abiding people, the bigger the haystack becomes, and the harder the needles are to find.

Mass surveillance is not just ineffective, but actively harmful, if you're trying to stop terrorist attacks.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Feb 2018, 22:00
What day a year do they do that.
I don't think they tell you in advance, and I don't think it's the same day every year, 'cos that would make it too easy for the perps.

But now and then our local police set up an ANPR camera and stop everyone without tax and/or insurance. This does indeed turn out to be a really good way to find people they were after for all sorts of other stuff, and also to discover new crimes: astonishingly enough those who break laws regarding their cars tend to be people who are also willing to break other laws.

galaxy flyer
21st Feb 2018, 23:02
The US government knew more than enough to have stopped 9/11 before it happened: people had reported the hijackers' strange behaviour to them, and that should have been enough to catch them. But the government were just as incompetent as usual and completely failed to do anything effective (or, if you believe the conspiracy theorists, the government deliberately let them carry out their attack to justify a crackdown on the American people).

And we already see with most post-9/11 terror attacks that the people who committed them were already known to the government, but, again, the government had completely failed to do anything about it. Because the more surveillance they carry out of law-abiding people, the bigger the haystack becomes, and the harder the needles are to find.

Mass surveillance is not just ineffective, but actively harmful, if you're trying to stop terrorist attacks.

True, that, OTOH, I wouldn’t credit them with enough foresight to have allowed 9/11 to enable the pervasive surveillance. They’re too incompetent, too unimaginative and too shortsighted for that to happen. As I used to point out, the government from the President down to GS-3 Amn Snuffy are just like you and me—no exceptional talent, no driving ambition other than to make 55/30 and retire. Yes, there are better ones scattered around, but USG (aka World’s Greatest Bureacracy) is pretty much the Pareto Principle on steroids. 80/20 has become 90/10, top to bottom.

GF

RedhillPhil
22nd Feb 2018, 08:55
rogerg
Can't follow a crawling juggernaut in cruise control mode.
Anyway, if you floor the throttle with cruise control engaged, your average speed will be greater than the cruise setting. After overtaking, you have to disengage it and slow for a suitable distance. It's a real guessing game. Wish my average speed instrument display could handle that one.


If you're travelling along a 60 mph average speed camera equipped road with cruise control engaged at an indicated 60 mph you're doing 57-58 mph. A quick blip up to an indicated 70 to get past a big ole lumbering lorry won't be a threat to your licence. If the cameras are widely spaced even more so.

Uplinker
22nd Feb 2018, 11:53
I did a little reading on these gizmos and assumed they used RADAR or LIDAR, but was surprised to learn the system IDs the cars and calculates the time between camera locations. Not exactly a fair fight.

Erm.... how else would you calculate average speed??

.

Loggerheads
22nd Feb 2018, 12:01
Cruise control is seldom an option on the A9.
Cruise control is absolutely essential on the A9.

Anyway, if you floor the throttle with cruise control engaged, your average speed will be greater than the cruise setting. After overtaking, you have to disengage it and slow for a suitable distance. It's a real guessing game. Wish my average speed instrument display could handle that one.

Zero average speed at every speed change and camera and you'll find there's plenty in reserve to 'floor it'. And if by chance you do exceed the average limit it's easy enough to pull it back, but now in front of the truck.

No guessing necessary.

Simple!!:):)

old,not bold
22nd Feb 2018, 12:44
but was surprised to learn the system IDs the cars and calculates the time between camera locations.Just out of curiosity, how did you think it is done?

Radar, speed cameras, etc can only measure speed at a given moment.

I get a lot of amusement watching people go fast between the averaging NPR cameras in a road works, and slow to 50 as they go past them. The whole concept of "average" seems to have passed them by.

A neighbour's daughter was caught twice by average speed cameras on the M1, so I advised her to drive close behind a high HGV going through average speed areas, so that the cameras could not read her plate.

So she does that now, thereby maintaining 50 MPH all the way through the restriction.


Edit: Apologies to Uplinker, who got in first with "How do you think it's done"

Trossie
22nd Feb 2018, 13:07
Captivep
Getting past a crawling juggernaut or two is definitely safer if you are "free" to floor the throttle for a few seconds.
Cruise control is seldom an option on the A9.I would be interested to know where "floor the throttle" gets mentioned in any safe driving guides or on any advanced driving courses!

(My cruise control works quite well behind any 'crawling juggernauts', you just have to reset it to the lower speed and best if you sit quite a bit further back so that the distance can 'absorb' quite a bit of their small speed variations before you have to disengage and actually drive the car again.)

I find the increased speed monitoring on the roads (speed cameras, especially 'average cameras' as well as the 'non fixed' mobile police monitors) to make driving a lot more pleasant now as the traffic goes at a speed that you expect. It means that you are far more likely to be able to go into the third lane to overtake that truck that is overtaking a truck with your cruise control set to the speed limit without some @rse charging up behind you thinking that that lane belongs to him (usually with four joined up rings or a single ring with a three-pointy-thing on the front of his car).

I did a little reading on these gizmos and assumed they used RADAR or LIDAR, but was surprised to learn the system IDs the cars and calculates the time between camera locations. Not exactly a fair fight. Funny old thing, but sticking to the speed limit makes the whole thing totally fair!

DaveReidUK
22nd Feb 2018, 13:13
A neighbour's daughter was caught twice by average speed cameras on the M1, so I advised her to drive close behind a high HGV

Given how good the brakes are on many HGVs nowadays, let's hope she either didn't take your advice or has very good reactions.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Feb 2018, 13:55
Given how good the brakes are on many HGVs nowadays, let's hope she either didn't take your advice or has very good reactions.
I used to ride my C90 in the sweet spot behind HGVs where it was as far back as possible whilst still being pulled along in the slipstream. There wasn't, after all, any other way to get one of those up to 60mph.

Uplinker
22nd Feb 2018, 14:28
......(usually with four joined up rings or a single ring with a three-pointy-thing on the front of his car).

Oi ! less of that ‘carism’ thank you. I drive an Audi, but I do not tailgate in the outside lane.

I can’t - it’s an A3 with a 1.6 engine, so it is quite underpowered - to be specific, undertorqued :) If I am ever in lane 3 - very rare with this engine ! - I get out of the way as soon as I can.

Since trucks became physically speed limited to 56mph, and the so-called “smart motorways” with speed cameras came in; you get these dangerous situations on motorways with a truck in lane 2 overtaking another truck at a delta V of 0.1mph, and a long line of tailgating cars in lane 3 with the front car doing 70. Bloody dangerous, and only takes a moment’s lack of concentration for these muppets to hit each other.

No surprise that Bobby on Radio 2 has her work cut out - There seem to be far more accidents these days than I can remember.

@Old not bold; no problem, great minds think alike !

Turbine D
22nd Feb 2018, 17:59
In USA Today
Judge slams Ohio village's speed cameras
Published 6:39 p.m. ET March 8, 2013 | Updated 8:58 p.m. ET March 8, 2013
ELMWOOD PLACE, Ohio — In a scathing ruling, a Hamilton County judge ruled that an ordinance allowing this village of 2,000 to install speed cameras is invalid and unenforceable. "Elmwood Place is engaged in nothing more than a high-tech game of Three-card Monty," Common Pleas Court Judge Robert Ruehlman wrote in his Thursday decision. "It is a scam the motorist cannot win."

The village hired Maryland-based Optotraffic LLC to install the cameras and bill offenders, allowing the company to keep part of the fine money.

When motorists began receiving the $105 speeding tickets in the mail, they exploded in anger. Many have said they now go out of their way to avoid driving here, and many business owners say the cameras and the fallout are hurting business. The judge was particularly biting in writing his decision, blasting the village for taking from its residents instead of providing services to those who pay for them.

"The entire case against the motorist is stacked because the speed monitoring device is calibrated and controlled by Optotraffic," the judge wrote.

If motorists receiving tickets wanted to contest them, they had to request an administrative hearing that came with a $25 fee.

"The hearing is nothing more than a sham," the judge wrote.
A dozen states have laws prohibiting them, thirteen states and the District of Columbia have speed cameras operating in at least one location. In the Elmwood Place instance it is a test of Constitutional due-process rights. I believe Elmwood Place had to give the money collected back to those who paid camera tickets.

Trossie
22nd Feb 2018, 18:50
Oi ! less of that ‘carism’ thank you. I drive an Audi, but I do not tailgate in the outside lane.I said 'usually' not 'all'!


... ... you get these dangerous situations on motorways with a truck in lane 2 overtaking another truck at a delta V of 0.1mph, and a long line of tailgating cars in lane 3 with the front car doing 70. Bloody dangerous, and only takes a moment’s lack of concentration for these muppets to hit each other.So a car travelling at the speed limit is somehow dangerous because it is holding other up?

I agree about the "moment's lack of concentration" as all those muppets are not only wanting to break the speed limit but also travelling at unsafely close distances. "Double muppets"! When they do hit each other they are in the fast lane with no pace to escape. Space is everything on a motorway. Safely spaced at 70 mph cannot be a problem (unless the conditions dictate that 70 mph is too fast, e.g. very heavy rain or fog).

Pontius Navigator
22nd Feb 2018, 19:22
Cruise control is absolutely essential on the A9.
Mrs PN, driving down the A9, descending the Drumochter noticed a Bucc rolling over the crest and slowly overtaking her. Then she checked her speed ! :)

Pontius Navigator
22nd Feb 2018, 19:27
or a single ring with a three-pointy-thing on the front of his car).
Trossie I resent that. My gun sight works but so does my CC.

Pontius Navigator
22nd Feb 2018, 19:31
Trossie, on your subsequent post I experienced that on the A1 2 lane.

Lane one, truck at 55.995, I remained in lane with 200 yards clear road. Lane 2 led by truck doing 55.999 followed by queue of cars all driving close together.

horatio_b
22nd Feb 2018, 19:51
Probably not a record, but this takes some beating:

A footballer was given a driving ban and ordered to pay nearly £3,000 in fines after accumulating eight speeding tickets in a month.


Preston North End central midfielder Alan Browne, 22, was one of the first motorists to fall foul of Preston’s first average speed check cameras which were launched on London Road between Victoria Road and Albyn Street East last March.
The Republic of Ireland international triggered three hits whilst driving in his Land Rover on April 1 last year.
Browne, of Wigan Road, Clayton-le-Woods, near Chorley, was also caught again on April 9, April 10, April 15, twice on April 17 and again on May 4 last year.
He previously appeared before Chorley Magistrates’ Court where he admitted eight counts of speeding.
He was fined for each individual offence and ordered to pay £85 costs.
Magistrates also gave him a 12-month driving ban.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
22nd Feb 2018, 23:07
So a car travelling at the speed limit is somehow dangerous because it is holding other up?
Actually, yes.
I experience the self-righteous every day, smugly remaining in the right lane at their indicated speed limit, and refusing to move left because they are overtaking the car 30m to their left in the adjacent lane at a delta of .001 kmh, forcing those who wish to, for whatever reason, proceed slightly faster to eventually, out of sheer bloody frustration, overtake on the left through slower traffic (including me).
In my experience, drivers of those vehicles fitted with what they believe to be extremely accurate speedometers usually have no knowledge of the operation of the indicators and rear-vision mirrors also fitted to their vehicles.

ExSp33db1rd
23rd Feb 2018, 06:12
It happened at 4:55 pm last time you told that story.

Perhaps it did. I don't keep a diary but definitely recall that I had to get somewhere before closing time.

Will award myself 3 Hail Mary's and beat my bum with a birch branch.

Pinky the pilot
23rd Feb 2018, 06:22
and beat my bum with a birch branch.

KIN..ky!!!!:E:D:D

Nahh...try 20 lashes with a wet noodle!

KelvinD
23rd Feb 2018, 07:29
Reading all these comments re travelling in this or that lane, surely the thing to remember, at least in the UK, is that the law says we must drive on the left. There is no "slow" lane, "overtaking lane" etc. You have to drive on the left. When you come across a car in front of you and it is not going as fast as you, you pass it using whatever lane space is provided. Then you get back to driving on the left.
Of course, this doesn't apply to drivers of certain German cars. They have a special lane just for them, known as the Audi lane!

UniFoxOs
23rd Feb 2018, 07:38
I find the increased speed monitoring on the roads (speed cameras, especially 'average cameras' as well as the 'non fixed' mobile police monitors) to make driving a lot more pleasant now as the traffic goes at a speed that you expect. It means that you are far more likely to be able to go into the third lane to overtake that truck that is overtaking a truck with your cruise control set to the speed limit without some @rse charging up behind you thinking that that lane belongs to him (usually with four joined up rings or a single ring with a three-pointy-thing on the front of his car).

Here speaks a man who has never seen the M42.

vapilot2004
23rd Feb 2018, 08:29
Funny old thing, but sticking to the speed limit makes the whole thing totally fair!


Fair enough, but where's the fun in that?

...other than arriving at one's destination in a safe and orderly manner. ;)

Erm.... how else would you calculate average speed??


Good question, Uplinker. I really didn't know and thought "average speed cameras" were just another odd moniker for an existing technology.

Uplinker
23rd Feb 2018, 08:35
I said 'usually' not 'all'!

Ah, so you did, but I resent the association of a type of car with a type of bad driver. That would be very serious if applied to people, rather than car types :ooh:


So a car travelling at the speed limit is somehow dangerous because it is holding other up?

That is not how I characterised the scenario, I was specifically describing a situation one regularly sees on motorways when a speed limited truck is overtaking another speed limited truck and a car in lane three is sticking to the 70mph limit - because of speed cameras - and there is a long queue of tailgaters behind them - I guarantee it is happening right now on the M1. I am not necessarily blaming the driver in front doing 70, but if they would just go up to 75/80 to get past the truck and then pull in and go back to 70, the situation would arise far less. Likewise, if the trucks could override their limiters for a short while (but not indefinitely) just to get past the truck and then drop back to speed limiter mode, it would unblock the motorways significantly.

I don’t know what the answer is but when you have a speed limit rigidly enforced with speed cameras or limiters, you get dangerous bunching and unintended consequences. In the 50mph average-through-roadworks, the trucks used to bully cars in lane 1 who were doing an indicated 50, by driving a metre behind them, but they seem to have stopped doing this now.


I agree about the "moment's lack of concentration" as all those muppets are not only wanting to break the speed limit but also travelling at unsafely close distances. "Double muppets"! When they do hit each other they are in the fast lane with no pace to escape. Space is everything on a motorway. Safely spaced at 70 mph cannot be a problem (unless the conditions dictate that 70 mph is too fast, e.g. very heavy rain.

The problem is as we all know; many many drivers do not pay attention, do not leave a safe gap to the vehicle in front, do not mirror-signal-manoeuvre. So they won’t be safely spaced, they rarely are.

Another unintended consequence is of trucks’ blanket speed limit of 40 mph (or less) unless on a multi carriageway road is that you get long queues of traffic behind lorries on single lane A roads, and drivers get frustrated and try to overtake. Sadly, some misjudge it leading to fatal accidents and the flowers one sometimes sees tied to the side of the road.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 11:13
That is not how I characterised the scenario, I was specifically describing a situation one regularly sees on motorways when a speed limited truck is overtaking another speed limited truck and a car in lane three is sticking to the 70mph limit - because of speed cameras - and there is a long queue of tailgaters behind them
The first truck driver is just doing his job. The second truck driver is just doing his job, albeit in what could be regarded as an antisocial manner. The guy driving at 70mph might be doing so because that is the speed limit, rather than "because of speed cameras".

The people who are being both dangerous and illegal are the "long queue of tailgaters".

G-CPTN
23rd Feb 2018, 12:00
The guy driving at 70mph might be doing so because that is the speed limit.

The people who are being both dangerous and illegal are the "long queue of tailgaters".

Can often be exacerbated by an over-reading speedometer so the lead vehicle can be no faster than 65mph.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 13:18
Can often be exacerbated by an over-reading speedometer so the lead vehicle can be no faster than 65mph.
Sure. But tailgating is still dangerous and illegal.

TekNik
23rd Feb 2018, 14:03
True - but if you have set your cruise control at the speed you want for the cameras, your average will be end up too high. On roads like the A9 cruise control is off much more that it is on. What I'd like as an average speed app, linked to the GPS, on my smartphone, so I could get my speed back to the right average after being held up or flooring the throttle to get a quick safe overtake.

Try the TomTom app on iOS, it knows the start / end of the average speed camera monitored section and shows a running average speed. This allows you to "catch up" if you want ...

DType
23rd Feb 2018, 14:18
Trossie
Re flooring the throttle:- Highway Code says if you are going to overtake, then do it quickly.

Also, if you crawl behind a juggernaut in Sector 1, then overtake it in Sector 2, then the low average speed in Sector 1 is not "credited" to you in Sector 2, so you have to slow again in Sector 2. Some sectors on the A9 are very short.
Please be assured that I do my very best to drive so as not to annoy, inconvenience or alarm anyone, but then I would say that, wouldn't I?

Katamarino
23rd Feb 2018, 14:21
Ah, so you did, but I resent the association of a type of car with a type of bad driver. That would be very serious if applied to people, rather than car types :ooh:

No it wouldn't. The type of car one drives is a choice. People who drive like tosspots often choose certain types of car.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 15:00
No it wouldn't. The type of car one drives is a choice. People who drive like tosspots often choose certain types of car.
Mate of mine has a BMW and took me for a ride in it a while back. I didn't say anything until we'd parked, on the grounds that either (1) he knew what he was doing, so there was no need for any exclamation of surprise from me, or (2) he didn't know what he was doing, in which case an exclamation of surprise from me could have been dangerous.

Next time that event comes round I'm offering to drive.

Uplinker
23rd Feb 2018, 19:33
No it wouldn't. The type of car one drives is a choice. People who drive like tosspots often choose certain types of car.

Really? What I am trying to point out is that by making that statement you are exhibiting bias based on the outward appearance of a person, in this case; the model of car they drive. This is not valid.

Trossie
23rd Feb 2018, 19:38
Trossie
Re flooring the throttle:- Highway Code says if you are going to overtake, then do it quickly.The Highway Code never says that you can exceed the speed limit. In fact, the Highway Code very specifically says "You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle" (Rule 124) and "The speed limit is the absolute maximum" (Rule 125). Simple.

Trossie
23rd Feb 2018, 19:40
The first truck driver is just doing his job. The second truck driver is just doing his job, albeit in what could be regarded as an antisocial manner. The guy driving at 70mph might be doing so because that is the speed limit, rather than "because of speed cameras".

The people who are being both dangerous and illegal are the "long queue of tailgaters".Absolutely and fully agreed.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 19:45
Really? What I am trying to point out is that by making that statement you are exhibiting bias based on the outward appearance of a person, in this case; the model of car they drive. This is not valid.
It's certainly not always valid. But if it's a BMW you're onto a pretty good bet.

Trossie
23rd Feb 2018, 19:47
Another unintended consequence is of trucks’ blanket speed limit of 40 mph (or less) unless on a multi carriageway road is that you get long queues of traffic behind lorries on single lane A roads, and drivers get frustrated and try to overtake. Sadly, some misjudge it leading to fatal accidents and the flowers one sometimes sees tied to the side of the road.The speed limit for those vehicles is now 50 mph on single-carriageway roads (although still 40 mph for goods vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes in Scotland). This is clearly stated in the Highway Code so all road users should be aware of it and plan their journey times with the likelihood of one of these vehicles being ahead of them. No excuses.

Trossie
23rd Feb 2018, 19:51
Really? What I am trying to point out is that by making that statement you are exhibiting bias based on the outward appearance of a person, in this case; the model of car they drive. This is not valid.I am only making a statement based on the outward appearance of the vehicle. There is always every opportunity for the occupant of the driver's seat of that vehicle to prove that my 'bias' is invalid and this does happen on a few occasions.

Fareastdriver
23rd Feb 2018, 20:16
(although still 40 mph for goods vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes in Scotland).

You try telling that to a artic with eastern European numberplates in the west of Scotland.

ShyTorque
23rd Feb 2018, 20:29
The people who are being both dangerous and illegal are the "long queue of tailgaters".True, which is why I don't allow anyone to tailgate me. I do so by moving over to a lane to my left where possible, as soon as there is a clear space to safely do so.

By holding up following traffic i.e. not moving over to the left when possible you are also committing an offence.

If I'm already driving at the speed limit and it looks like someone is coming up behind, I still let them past. Firstly, it's certainly not up to me to try to play at being a traffic policeman. Secondly, if there's an unmarked police car in the vicinity, I enjoy watching the fun... Moral: never be the fastest car on the motorway.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 20:43
The speed limit for those vehicles is now 50 mph on single-carriageway roads (although still 40 mph for goods vehicles exceeding 7.5 tonnes in Scotland). This is clearly stated in the Highway Code so all road users should be aware of it and plan their journey times with the likelihood of one of these vehicles being ahead of them. No excuses.
It's been the case for as long as I've been driving that you average around 40mph in the UK unless the journey is almost all on motorways. Anyone who doesn't plan for 40mph is, basically, an idiot.

andytug
23rd Feb 2018, 21:53
Really? What I am trying to point out is that by making that statement you are exhibiting bias based on the outward appearance of a person, in this case; the model of car they drive. This is not valid.

Based on experience I would say it is statistically more likely for German cars to be driven in an antisocial manner. The outside lane of the motorway is almost always full of Audis, BMWs and Volkswagen Passat diesels, nose to tail. I prefer to leave them to it.
Add 4x4 to the model and they become even more antisocial, they seem to think they own the road!
Yes there are bad drivers of all types of car, but there seem to be more of those types in Audis than any other make.....

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Feb 2018, 22:06
Based on experience I would say it is statistically more likely for German cars to be driven in an antisocial manner. The outside lane of the motorway is almost always full of Audis, BMWs and Volkswagen Passat diesels, nose to tail.
Oi, leave the Passat diesels out of it, I don't drive like that! - I'm much more likely to be driving at 70mph in the empty left hand lane, overtaking all the numpties doing 60mph in the outside lane.

ExSp33db1rd
23rd Feb 2018, 23:35
............but if they would just go up to 75/80 to get past the truck and then pull in and go back to 70,

Re flooring the throttle:- Highway Code says if you are going to overtake, then do it quickly.
The Highway Code never says that you can exceed the speed limit. In fact, the Highway Code very specifically says "You MUST NOT exceed the maximum speed limits for the road and for your vehicle" (Rule 124) and "The speed limit is the absolute maximum" (Rule 125). Simple.

When I took the Institute of Advanced Motorist test circa. 196? I was told that overtaking was TED time - Time Exposed to Danger. Get out and back as fast as you can, was the advice. Unfortunately ... NZ cops have worked out where this is most likely to be obeyed, and park just around the corner whilst still slowing down following that advice - but not enough. Gotcha ! More loot for the Constabulary Benevolent Fund.

M.Mouse
24th Feb 2018, 01:05
The briefing from a serving police officer for my Advanced motorcycle Test which he was about to conduct consisted of the standard obey the speed limits at all times. He then went on to say that if you plan an overtake then he would prefer I concentrated on the manouevre rather than my speedometer.

Much the same that Traffic Police will generally ignore someone doing 75 - 80 mph on a motorway PROVIDING they are driving sensibly i.e. not tailgating or intimidating other drivers.

UniFoxOs
24th Feb 2018, 07:45
It's been the case for as long as I've been driving that you average around 40mph in the UK unless the journey is almost all on motorways.

I (and many of my mates) have usually reckoned on the average being around half your regular top speed (non-motorway). I.E. if you regularly reach 60 on a journey your average will be 30.

DType
24th Feb 2018, 13:16
Depends on time of day.
Edinburgh to Glen Coe, starting at 6am, takes a lot less than the 4 hours of UFO's "formula".
Similarly Edinburgh to Thurso should take over 8 hours, but even that grind is never that bad at any time of day.
Maybe there are some advantages to living Up North?

Pontius Navigator
24th Feb 2018, 16:50
Aye, driving on the A34/43/A1 I generally average 55, there are some slower sections. Leaving the A1 for deepest Lincolnshire will pull that right back to 40 or less.

GROUNDHOG
24th Feb 2018, 18:27
I am a volunteer with Devon and Cornwall Police, from many hours studying vehicles exceeding the speed limit, statistically the most regular offenders are...... Audi drivers (nothing personal just a fact!).:eek:

Smeagol
24th Feb 2018, 20:25
I don't know where the 40mph average speed for typical UK journeys came from. It may be true if you ONLY drive on busy, single carriageway A-roads and B-roads but it is certainly possible to average considerably higher speeds than that over long distances.

I have just returned to Norfolk from a trip to Penzance (Cornwall) and averaged about 67mph going and about 65mph on the return trip, 475 miles which included a significant sidetrack on slow A-roads.

And before I get screamed at for driving like a lunatic I will admit to travelling at about 75mph on motorways (M6, M42 & M5) and dualled A-roads (A14 & A30) but most of that was in lane 2 on motorways (overtaking slower traffic) and lane 1 on the two lane A-roads, and I was certainly not the fastest driver on the road as I was continually overtaken by other vehicles. I even passed a police motorcycle on the M6 who was probably travelling at about 68 or 69mph, he took no notice of me or the other vehicles doing a similar speed to me.

Trossie
25th Feb 2018, 07:23
I did about 200 miles oop north very recently. The overwhelming number of drivers were well behaved and law abiding. I ended up stuck behind a truck at one stage doing 40 mph on a single carriage-way road and as it was still in Scotland he was also abiding by the law. There aren't many overtaking opportunities on that road so I settled back to a safe following distance and enjoyed the view. A safe overtaking opportunity did occur, so I accelerated to just below the speed limit (I was doing about 58-59 mph, I think) and comfortably and safely overtook him, no need to 'floor it'. And while I was passing him, we both went past a speed camera, which didn't flash because I hadn't 'floored it'. And we all continued our journey happily and safely.

I think that I have worked out why some posting on here have to 'floor it' to overtake: I also used to have an under-powered car once.

Trossie
25th Feb 2018, 07:38
True, which is why I don't allow anyone to tailgate me. I do so by moving over to a lane to my left where possible, as soon as there is a clear space to safely do so.

By holding up following traffic i.e. not moving over to the left when possible you are also committing an offence.

If I'm already driving at the speed limit and it looks like someone is coming up behind, I still let them past. Firstly, it's certainly not up to me to try to play at being a traffic policeman. Secondly, if there's an unmarked police car in the vicinity, I enjoy watching the fun... Moral: never be the fastest car on the motorway.Fully agreed. When you are not overtaking anyone, move to the left. However, if you read what I posted, I was mentioning a case where a truck was overtaking a truck and the car at 70 mph was over taking them. Most certainly once having overtaken those trucks the correct thing would be to move to the left. It is the queue of tailgaters behind that 70 mph driver who is overtaking those trucks who are wrong (and illegal) not the 70 mph driver.

About tailgaters: I always ensure that the total distance between the car in front of me and the car behind me is the sum of two safe distances. If some @rse tailgates me at an unsafe distance I just drop back so that the distance between me and the car in front is increased to satisfy the above formula. In that way, if there is any sudden braking ahead of me I have the space to brake more gently to 'absorb' the lack of space that the @rse behind me has for braking and in that way I avoid having four horizontal interlinked rings impressed on the rear of my car.

Space is everything for safety on the road.

Krystal n chips
25th Feb 2018, 10:30
.

About tailgaters: I always ensure that the total distance between the car in front of me and the car behind me is the sum of two safe distances. If some @rse tailgates me at an unsafe distance I just drop back so that the distance between me and the car in front is increased to satisfy the above formula. In that way, if there is any sudden braking ahead of me I have the space to brake more gently to 'absorb' the lack of space that the @rse behind me has for braking and in that way I avoid having four horizontal interlinked rings impressed on the rear of my car.

Space is everything for safety on the road.

That's not really going to work is it.

Whilst you can obviously control the distance in front of you to the next car, there's not a lot you can do to control the distance of the cretin tailgating you from your car.

Sometimes, there is no justice in this world.

Heading down Mansfield road on the hill leading to Derby yesterday ( for anybody who knows this road )and it's a 40 mph limit.

Cue the duty moron overtaking all of us staying in the limit, however, had he waited just a couple few more seconds before overtaking the car in front of me, he would have met Derbyshire's finest, in a hurry with lights and noise, coming the other way. Not unsurprisingly, he also went through the red light at the junction for the Meteor Centre.

ExXB
25th Feb 2018, 15:07
I am a volunteer with Devon and Cornwall Police, from many hours studying vehicles exceeding the speed limit, statistically the most regular offenders are...... Audi drivers (nothing personal just a fact!).:eek:

In Switzerland if you see a driver doing something stupid, it is most likely an Audi driver. The fact that Audi is the most popular brand of car is likely a coincidence.

DaveReidUK
25th Feb 2018, 15:15
That's not really going to work is it.

Whilst you can obviously control the distance in front of you to the next car, there's not a lot you can do to control the distance of the cretin tailgating you from your car.

I suggest you re-read the post you quoted. That's exactly the situation that the tactic being described is intended to address.

The other solution, is course, is to gently decelerate until your speed is low enough such that the gap between the tailgater and you is now a safe stopping distance. :O

Krystal n chips
25th Feb 2018, 16:02
I suggest you re-read the post you quoted. That's exactly the situation that the tactic being described is intended to address.

The other solution, is course, is to gently decelerate until your speed is low enough such that the gap between the tailgater and you is now a safe stopping distance. :O

I read it with interest the first time thank you.

I don't dispute the increase in distance between yourself and the car in front will give an increased braking distance, but it's not going to help reduce the distance between you and the car behind tailgating you even if you do have marginally longer distance / braking time available.

If somebody is that close to you, their reactive times are more than likely to be slow or very poor at best thus they still have a more than significant chance of clattering into the back of you.

Pontius Navigator
25th Feb 2018, 16:25
If you have more than the MINIMUM safe distance in front of you can slow down at a lower rate than required for emergency braking. However if the car behind you is inside HIS minimum safe distance then you can continue at a higher speed to give him time to grasp the seriousness of the situation.

There is also the chance that he will slow down thus restoring safety margins.

DaveReidUK
25th Feb 2018, 16:28
If you have more than the MINIMUM safe distance in front of you can slow down at a lower rate than required for emergency braking. However if the car behind you is inside HIS minimum safe distance then you can continue at a higher speed to give him time to grasp the seriousness of the situation.

Yes, or put more simply for anyone who is struggling with that concept, you're keeping the distance between you and the car in front enough to allow for the fact that you're braking for two. :O

Pontius Navigator
25th Feb 2018, 16:36
Perfect!!, that should be crystal clear.

Krystal n chips
25th Feb 2018, 17:11
Yes, or put more simply for anyone who is struggling with that concept, you're keeping the distance between you and the car in front enough to allow for the fact that you're braking for two. :O

I'm not struggling with the concept in the slightest....but...I am braking for one, not two, given I can't control the responses or control of the idiot tailgating me.

Amusing ( and disturbing ) to read so many on here feel they have the skills of a trained advanced police driver when it comes to controlling traffic....

DaveReidUK
25th Feb 2018, 17:37
I'm not struggling with the concept in the slightest....but...I am braking for one, not two, given I can't control the responses or control of the idiot tailgating me.

No, you can't control his/her responses or control, agreed.

But you can mitigate the potential consequences of their lesser ability by reducing their need to brake as sharply or react as quickly, because you have left yourself extra space that allows your own deceleration to be more gradual.

In other words, your driving strategy makes allowance for their needs and abilities as well as yours.

Stop pretending that you don't understand that. :O

rogerg
25th Feb 2018, 17:43
KnC just likes to be awkward.

Trossie
25th Feb 2018, 17:43
... ...

Stop pretending that you don't understand that. :O
I'm getting to think that he's not pretending, he genuinely doesn't understand!

goudie
25th Feb 2018, 19:07
If some idiot tailgates me I just flick on and off the rear lights, that usually gets them to drop back to a safe distance. If they're desperate to overtake I just get out of their way.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Feb 2018, 22:11
That's not really going to work is it.

Whilst you can obviously control the distance in front of you to the next car, there's not a lot you can do to control the distance of the cretin tailgating you from your car.
You can however control the speed, and the necessary safe distance is smaller at a lower speed. So you slow down, gradually, until you're both going slow enough that the space the tailgater is leaving is adequate.

G-CPTN
25th Feb 2018, 22:24
You can however control the speed, and the necessary safe distance is smaller at a lower speed. So you slow down, gradually, until you're both going slow enough that the space the tailgater is leaving is adequate.

Except that a truck that wants to travel at 56 mph (or higher for foreign trucks) will 'push' if you try to drive slower - sometimes ending up so close that the rear of your vehicle is below his sightline meaning that the truck driver has zero reaction distance.

I don't intentionally impede trucks (having been an HGV driver), but the scenario that I describe has occurred a couple of times - and it is frighteningly dangerous.

belfrybat
26th Feb 2018, 01:29
Leaving three car lengths or whatever you feel is a safe distance, it's certain that the idiot behind you will pass and fill the space.

DaveReidUK
26th Feb 2018, 07:00
Except that a truck that wants to travel at 56 mph (or higher for foreign trucks) will 'push' if you try to drive slower - sometimes ending up so close that the rear of your vehicle is below his sightline meaning that the truck driver has zero reaction distance.

But look on the bright side - no matter how hard you brake, you won't have been able to decelerate much, so when he hits you he'll won't be going much faster than you are. :O

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
26th Feb 2018, 12:46
I find it ironic that Heavy Vehicles placarded with warning signs informing following drivers that said vehicles take 100m to stop safely, will regularly sit 5m off your rear bumper.

Pinky the pilot
27th Feb 2018, 08:43
If some idiot tailgates me I just flick on and off the rear lights, that usually gets them to drop back to a safe distance.

Not here in South Aussie it doesn't! := Well... not one time anyway.:E

The car behind would have not been much more than 15 feet off my rear end and we were in an 80km/h zone. So I briefly lightly touched the brake.

The result was 'the fingers.':*

I promptly stood on the brakes!:eek::ooh:
(I drive an XG Ford Falcon Ute, with a very strongly constructed and prominent tow bar!)

To the driver's credit, he actually managed to not hit me.....as he locked up all four wheels and spun out, winding up in a cloud of dust, wrapped around several metres of wire fencing in the median strip.:=

At least I think he did. I didn't stop. No sympathy, then or now.

RAT 5
27th Feb 2018, 10:50
Leaving three car lengths or whatever you feel is a safe distance, it's certain that the idiot behind you will pass and fill the space.

Ain't it the truth. On the motorway I can see the tailback starting 1-200m ahead and try to avoid braking or stopping completely. Speed management keeps the car rolling. So off the right foot for a bit of coasting as all those behind sweep nay, fill in the gap, anchors on and now my buffer same has been reduced so that I no reach there tailback early and have to stop; for a coup,e of seconds then we are off again. If those muppets had engaged brain and followed daddy, who knows best, none of use would have stopped. Brains are wasted on the young; they've forgotten how to use them.

ShyTorque
27th Feb 2018, 11:26
If those muppets had engaged brain and followed daddy, who knows best, none of use would have stopped. Brains are wasted on the young; they've forgotten how to use them.

If you insist on driving on the motorway at the head of a convoy of your kids, what do you expect?

andytug
27th Feb 2018, 11:28
Anticipation is the most important driving skill, sadly no longer appears to be taught or placed much importance on. It saves fuel, time and frequently yourself from danger...

Blues&twos
27th Feb 2018, 12:44
Over the years of driving and being a former lorry driver, my experience is that a few younger drivers make mistakes as a result of inexperience ( and yes, some are reckless). But by far the biggest menaces on the road are the middle aged, aggressive, own-the-road, can't possibly be in the wrong types. (Fragile egos?)

ShyTorque
27th Feb 2018, 12:47
Anticipation is the most important driving skill, sadly no longer appears to be taught or placed much importance on. It saves fuel, time and frequently yourself from danger...

"Big Picture" awareness is highly important, too. Trouble with many drivers is that they're almost always driving without due car and attention. Many of them get away with it on a daily basis but obviously, some don't!

Speed cameras target anyone driving a few mph over a nominal limit that was possibly set in an office by a committee of non-drivers. They don't and can't possibly target someone who is distracted / not paying care and attention yet driving "legally" at or just below the limit and arguably much more likely to cause an RTC.

Mums on the school run is one good example - distractions such as a screaming baby, or crying and unhappy school kids in the back. Senile, half blind, elderly old folk who should have given up their driving licence is another. I've also seen a woman driving whilst eating a bowl of cereal and a man having a shave on his way to work. The police will have many more examples.

ATNotts
27th Feb 2018, 12:54
Except that a truck that wants to travel at 56 mph (or higher for foreign trucks) will 'push' if you try to drive slower - sometimes ending up so close that the rear of your vehicle is below his sightline meaning that the truck driver has zero reaction distance.

Not sure that is correct. If I recall correctly, trucks are governed to 90 km/h across the whole of Europe (the EU / EEA at least). Can't vouch for the Turks, that probably constitute more than half of all the non-EU / EEA trucks that populate UK roads. For now at least we are part of the EU so our trucks will be governed to no more, and no less, unless the operators want them to be.

The stupidity of the so called professional drivers that feel they need to drive 2-3 metres behind the truck in front to benefit from slip streaming beggars belief. Most of them are driving for large companies, so the driver doesn't stand to benefit from the marginally lower fuel consumption that results from the slip streaming. If the companies themselves are rewarding drivers for slip streaming then frankly they need exposing for promoting such dangerous practises.

andytug
27th Feb 2018, 13:50
"Big Picture" awareness is highly important, too. Trouble with many drivers is that they're almost always driving without due car and attention. Many of them get away with it on a daily basis but obviously, some don't!

Speed cameras target anyone driving a few mph over a nominal limit that was possibly set in an office by a committee of non-drivers. They don't and can't possibly target someone who is distracted / not paying care and attention yet driving "legally" at or just below the limit and arguably much more likely to cause an RTC.

Mums on the school run is one good example - distractions such as a screaming baby, or crying and unhappy school kids in the back. Senile, half blind, elderly old folk who should have given up their driving licence is another. I've also seen a woman driving whilst eating a bowl of cereal and a man having a shave on his way to work. The police will have many more examples.

Except increasingly the police won't, as their numbers continue to be cut. Speed cameras can't see poor driving without care and attention, etc. Bringing in new laws for mobile use behind the wheel, not clearing snow off your vehicle, etc etc is of no value when there's hardly anyone to enforce them!

ShyTorque
27th Feb 2018, 14:01
Agreed. I note that at least they have recognised that there are fewer Road Traffic "Accidents". They are now referred to as "Road Traffic Collisions"! Obviously, rather than pro-active policing, it's now largely a matter of waiting for the collision to happen then close the road for a day or so whilst trying to work out who was to blame.