V Force Operational Readiness Platforms?

[GLIDER 90]

Morning All

Got another question on the V Force, why did they only have the Operational Readiness Platforms for 4 aircraft at the one end of the runway, and not both ends. With using runway 21 one day and 03 the next.
If using 03 this would have meant a slower get away for 4 aircraft that had been scrambled.

Cheers ( Vulcan Nut!! )
Glider 90

[PapaDolmio]

I would guess at the prevailing winds normally westerly in the UK.
If,in the event of a scramble when the wind was favouring the other end, the rule book would have gone out of the window!
I would imagine, certainly with the later Mk2 V's, there would an excess of power to compensate for any headwind?

[ACW418]

I think the answer would be the infrastructure that accompanied the ORP's. There were the railway carriage like sleeping accommodation and the eating place and cookhouse etc.

ACW

[Wensleydale]

...if indeed the QRA aircraft were parked on the ORP at the time.

[PapaDolmio]

Must be a real challenge taking off with a headwind :ugh:

Oops- wrong way round!

[Tengah Type]

BGG @ #3

With the Victor K1/1A it was !!!!!!

Curvature of the Earth essential even on a cool day.

[MPN11]

Example ... EGXW was on RW21 for probably 90% of the year. Ignoring the QRA infrastructure aspects mentioned above, it would essentially be a waste of good concrete. ;)

[Timelord]

The ORP was not regularly occupied even during the days of V Force 24/7/365 QRA. The loaded aircraft were parked on a nearby H Dispersal. At Waddo I think it was near where the E3s now live. They only moved to the ORP at certain readiness and alert states. When the ORP was occupied there were limits on routine flying ( was it cross wind?)

[MPN11]

The ‘H’ dispersal likely to have been Bravo, being nearest to the ESA (and the ORP).

[Yellow Sun]

QRA was on Alpha, behind the Ops Block.

YS

[NRU74]

BGG @ #3

With the Victor K1/1A it was !!!!!!

Curvature of the Earth essential even on a cool day.

Yes, I remember seeing the 10,000 ft marker at Darwin (en route to Tengah) before hearing ‘rotate’ !

[Barksdale Boy]

The ORP was relevant to force generation rather than to QRA.

[oldmansquipper]

Obviously, Q at Waddo was located on the pans nearest to the aircrew feeder ....by necessity. (Back of Ops Block) 🍳😆

At the time, many of my 'short holiday breaks' with my mate Micky Finn, we were accommodated in portakabin type sheds alongside the ORP. Quite noisy!

At Waddo I saw the ORPs used several times for practice or demo scrambles as my section was overlooking the end of the runway. but perhaps my most memorable was the filming of Thunderball when, IIRC, the systems trainer next to us was also full of Luvvies for a week....

I will never forget those somber tones coming out of the tannoy at some ungodly hour...

"THIS IS THE BOMBER CONTROLLER......."

Spooky even now. 🙉

(Recommended further reading for the over sixties - The Secret State.)

[Tankertrashnav]

On Victor 1s I often wished the rear crew had been supplied with pedals to assist the take-off! I certainly wouldn't have fancied our chances taking off with a tailwind on a hot summer's day.

Great aircraft once it was in the air - it was getting there that was sometimes a problem.

[MPN11]

Victor 1s at Tengah only tried to take off early in the day. The next task was to send someone out to untangle the upwind arrester barrier, which obviously had to be in the down position for the takeoff. They used almost all of Tengah's 9,000 ft.

Thanks for clarification of Waddington's Q arrangements. That task had long gone by the time I got there (1981), so everything 'launched' from the various Sqn Dispersals (B, C, D, E). during Exercises. Any extra aircraft generated would usually be on A, while F remained usually empty for visiting ac.

[Lordflasheart]

There might be something of interest to the OP in these old threads.

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/264069-v-force-dispersal-query.html?highlight=V-force+ORPs

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/476864-v-bomber-dispersal-airfields-after-1968-a.html?highlight=V-force+ORPs

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/569357-dunsfold.html?highlight=V-force+ORPs

My understanding of the terminology is that the V-force had specifically constructed and fully-serviced QRA pans, in which each segment (of up to four) held one aircraft.

The term ORP - Operational Readiness Platform - was an earlier, more generalised un-serviced hard strip fully contiguous with the runway end, on which you could park as many fighters as you could squeeze in. Fighter Command airfields might theoretically have as many ORPs as runway ends - and some not even at the end, if the runway was later lengthened .

LFH

...........

[Green Flash]

Should the balloon have gone up (or at least being inflated) the V force would have been bolted far and wide, presumably including civvy airports. Was there any extra concrete laid at civvy airports to accommodate the V's? Thinking about it, it would have rather given the game away re the location of bolt holes but was wondering.

[oldmansquipper]

Should the balloon have gone up (or at least being inflated) the V force would have been bolted far and wide, presumably including civvy airports. Was there any extra concrete laid at civvy airports to accommodate the V's? Thinking about it, it would have rather given the game away re the location of bolt holes but was wondering.

The 4 dispersals I had the pleasure of visiting with Micky F (see earlier) were Thurleigh; Macrihanish, Brawdy and Filton. A quick look at the latest google maps shows that evidence of additional work still exists. however filton is not entirely clear. I cant remember where the jets were parked there - we were billeted in the old wartime RAF huts long since gone. there still appears to be a teardrop shaped hardstanding near western end which could probably take up to 4 vulcans.

Brawdy shows 2 slots, Macrihanish 2 and Thurleigh 4.

[PhilipG]

I seem to recall that someone said on PRUNE that no V Bomber had ever flown with a bomb loaded, except for the Valiants in Operation Grapple.

If the above is true, not that I doubt it, the question must be asked how did the required weapons get to the dispersal airfields? It is a long journey by lorry to some of the dispersal sites.

Of course I understand that a Bucaneer was seen flying with a loaded weapon.

[k3k3]

When I got to Lossiemouth in 1974 there was an ORP at the eastern end of the main runway called the Strike Force Dispersal.

[GLIDER 90]

Morning All

Thanks to all your replys. I did wonder why they were not built at both ends of the runway.

Cheers

Glider 90

[ORAC]

From RAF Nuclear Detterent Forces, Chpt XXX.

From the beginning of 1966 the number of dispersal airfields had been reduced. The Waddington based Vulcans (free-fall B.1As/B.2s) used Finningley and Mariam as near dispersal and Wattisham, Fulton, Macrahanish, Manston, Valley and Brandy as distant ones. Scampton’s Blue Steel B.2s used Coningsby and Bedford as near dispersals and Kinross, Lossiemouth and Boscombe Down as distant ones. Cottesmore’s free-fall Vulcan B.2s used Honnington and Leconfield as near dispersals and Pershore, Leuchars, Lyneham, Yeovilton, Ballykelly and Leeming as distant ones..... Whilst Wittering’s two Victor B.2 squadrons used Gaydon, Wyton and Coltishall as near dispersals and St. Mawgan as a distant one. The former dispersals given up by Bomber Command in 1966 were Middleton St. George, Cranwell, Prestwick, Llanbedr, Burtonwood, Bruntingthorpe and Elvington.

[Bonkey]

From RAF Nuclear Detterent Forces, Chpt XXX.

From the beginning of 1966 the number of dispersal airfields had been reduced. The Waddington based Vulcans (free-fall B.1As/B.2s) used Finningley and Mariam as near dispersal and Wattisham, Fulton, Macrahanish, Manston, Valley and Brandy as distant ones. Scampton’s Blue Steel B.2s used Coningsby and Bedford as near dispersals and Kinross, Lossiemouth and Boscombe Down as distant ones. Cottesmore’s free-fall Vulcan B.2s used Honnington and Leconfield as near dispersals and Pershore, Leuchars, Lyneham, Yeovilton, Ballykelly and Leeming as distant ones..... Whilst Wittering’s two Victor B.2 squadrons used Gaydon, Wyton and Coltishall as near dispersals and St. Mawgan as a distant one. The former dispersals given up by Bomber Command in 1966 were Middleton St. George, Cranwell, Prestwick, Llanbedr, Burtonwood, Bruntingthorpe and Elvington.

....and Tarrant Rushton?

[Mogwi]

From RAF Nuclear Detterent Forces, Chpt XXX.

From the beginning of 1966 the number of dispersal airfields had been reduced. The Waddington based Vulcans (free-fall B.1As/B.2s) used Finningley and Mariam as near dispersal and Wattisham, Fulton, Macrahanish, Manston, Valley and Brandy as distant ones. Scampton’s Blue Steel B.2s used Coningsby and Bedford as near dispersals and Kinross, Lossiemouth and Boscombe Down as distant ones. Cottesmore’s free-fall Vulcan B.2s used Honnington and Leconfield as near dispersals and Pershore, Leuchars, Lyneham, Yeovilton, Ballykelly and Leeming as distant ones..... Whilst Wittering’s two Victor B.2 squadrons used Gaydon, Wyton and Coltishall as near dispersals and St. Mawgan as a distant one. The former dispersals given up by Bomber Command in 1966 were Middleton St. George, Cranwell, Prestwick, Llanbedr, Burtonwood, Bruntingthorpe and Elvington.

I think that the predictive text would have fooled the Ruskies. Personally, I would have put my bet on HMS Herpes!

[Fareastdriver]

Where are Brandy, Kinross and Honnington?

[Bonkey]

Where are Brandy, Kinross and Honnington?

"Brandy" - that one would be behind the bar...

[Yellow Sun]

Interestingly, some of the dispersal airfields relinquished by Bomber Command in 1966 were utilised by USAFE as dispersal locations for F4s under Operation Finch. This task ceased circa 1971 and AFAIK was only exercised on a limted number of occasions. This could indicate that it was a secondary or alternate plan in the event of primary locations becoming unusable.

YS

[uffington sb]

Fareastdriver,

Probably in the same place as Fulton, Macrahanish and Mariam!!

[ORAC]

Typed. on iPad in bed at o’dark hundred bleary eyed (and with bl**dy predictive text having to go back when noticed.

Retires hurt to sulk in corner and swear never to get out of warm bed to fetch book to try and help again...... :{

[uffington sb]

Ahh don’t be like that.
It’s an interesting article nonetheless, with a few predictive text bloomers which happen all the time. My first sentence came out as, Ahh don’t be. IKEA that, FFS!
And I do like the sound of RAF Brandy and RAF Mariam

[Herod]

And I do like the sound of RAF Brandy and RAF Mariam

With a hand holding one, and an arm around the other.:ok:

[oldmansquipper]

Waddo did at least one deployment to Bedford (Thurleigh) with the B1As. I know for certain because...

1. I went
2. I got a lift to the site on a tow tug (Tugmaster Sentinel?) all the way down the A1 - biggest open top sports car in the world...great experience. Elfin Sayfty? What Elfin Sayfty?
3. My brother was OC Aero Flt at RAE Bedford at the time, so I was able to visit him in my downtime

[ZH875]

50 Sqn at Waddington were using Bedford as SFD in the early 1980s.

[Bonkey]

Typed. on iPad in bed at o’dark hundred bleary eyed (and with bl**dy predictive text having to go back when noticed.

Retires hurt to sulk in corner and swear never to get out of warm bed to fetch book to try and help again...... :{

Am baffled by why folks don't just disable predictive as it is far more trouble than it is worth. Has been disabled on my phone, I-Pad and everything else since the day I got the devices. Switch the bl**dy thing off!!

[Strumble Head]

And there was me getting all excited about the curtain being lifted on the mysterious world of the obfuscated names for those 'sensitive' dispersal locations.
Heartbroken to find that it was just the machinations of the evil ones who write the software on our newfangled typing boxes.

[MPN11]

"This is the Bummer Controller, for StrikeList A2c. Scramble to 3Yh2V."

Is that better?

[kenparry]

The 4 dispersals I had the pleasure of visiting with Micky F (see earlier) were Thurleigh; Macrihanish, Brawdy and Filton. A quick look at the latest google maps shows that evidence of additional work still exists. however filton is not entirely clear. I cant remember where the jets were parked there - we were billeted in the old wartime RAF huts long since gone.

Yes, Filton has been changed much in recent years. The V dispersal was about 200m due N of the 3-bay hangar near the ATC tower, linked to the Eastern threshold of the runway by a dedicated concrete taxiway. The dispersal is (in part) under a recently constructed road. Using Google Earth, if you go back to 1999 imagery, you will see the dispersal as it was when built.

[GLIDER 90]

Hello All

Thanks for all the replys.

Glider 90 ( Vulcan & Victor Nut!! )

[Blacksheep]

The Waddington QRA was, as said earlier, on Alpha dispersal where the E3s now live. Before it was completely concreted over for the E3s, Alpha was not, like all the other dispersals an 'H' layout, more of a double '8'. Ground crew were based in a couple of huts near Alpha 1, under the care of Flt. Sgt. "Midge" Midgeley in my time. We had a workshop/office and next door a TV lounge and Games room with snooker and ping-pong tables. There was no kitchen - we split teams and ate at the airmen's mess - a mad scramble, with much scattering of food and utensils if the tannoy erupted with the "Exercise Edom...." call - and we would roar through the station back to QRA as fast as an RAF Land Rover could manage. [Negotiating a tight corner at 70 mph in a Land Rover makes an interesting experience]. One's crew partner would meanwhile have got the bungs & blanks off by himself, cursing his luck - by the time the exercise was over and the aircraft back on the pan and serviced, the mess would be closed. The on-duty team were crewed two to an aircraft plus one driver and a Corporal I/C and we slept in caravans parked behind our huts. A tour on QRA lasted one month, 48 hours on and 48 hours off with Line Servicing Squadron 'A' and 'B' Flights alternating the two day intervals. Daily routine was performing the daily checks after breakfast, with the occasional 'Combats' and bombing up when an aircraft was rotated. The rest of the day we were 'hanging slack', playing snooker, cleaning the premises, reading or watching TV. Consequently, QRA was popular with Singlies, but not so for Scalies who were stuck on station with no contact with their families for two days at a time. There were four aircraft, each of three manned by a crew from each squadron and a spare in case of a hard failure of any of the three. All four were held 'Live'.

On a Micky Finn our domestic arrangements could be pretty terrible. RAF Valley was one of the worst - there was a dispersal area near the beach with a dormitory and a couple of WW2 barrack huts. These had been vandalised with windows broken, no working heating and smelled of urine. The only place to bed down was in the hut at the Two-ship ORP. After a 12 hour stint at Waddington, followed by a flight to Valley in a Beverley then 36 hours of continuous duty with no bed rest I was so knackered I fell asleep at the Ground Power Unit during the scramble - standing up, fifty feet from a pair of Vulcans running up to full chat!

Such was life on the Cold War front line in the late sixties. I wouldn't have missed it for anything.

[Buster15]

The 4 dispersals I had the pleasure of visiting with Micky F (see earlier) were Thurleigh; Macrihanish, Brawdy and Filton. A quick look at the latest google maps shows that evidence of additional work still exists. however filton is not entirely clear. I cant remember where the jets were parked there - we were billeted in the old wartime RAF huts long since gone. there still appears to be a teardrop shaped hardstanding near western end which could probably take up to 4 vulcans.

Brawdy shows 2 slots, Macrihanish 2 and Thurleigh 4.

Unfortunately Filton runway is being dug up to allow MORE new houses to be built on it. That is all they built in Bristol now MORE houses.

[esscee]

Filton could and should have been the Bristol airport, especially being so close to all necessary transport links. But when did that ever aid decision making. As for that ridiculous Lulsgate place, foggy on Hill, less said. Big opportunity completely wasted!

[RetiredBA/BY]

I seem to recall that someone said on PRUNE that no V Bomber had ever flown with a bomb loaded, except for the Valiants in Operation Grapple.

If the above is true, not that I doubt it, the question must be asked how did the required weapons get to the dispersal airfields? It is a long journey by lorry to some of the dispersal sites.

Of course I understand that a Bucaneer was seen flying with a loaded weapon.

So far as I know, apart from Grapple, no V ever flew with a live weapon. In the event that aircraft were to be dispersed for real, and British weapons loaded, an element of the weapon was removed before flight, making it inert so no nuclear reaction in the event of a crash, and replaced on arrival at the dispersal airfield.

It was called LML, last minute loading, and were trained to do it at Marham.

In my day the Valiants on QRA, assigned to SACEUR, were loaded with American weapons and never left the QRA compound.

Of course, being a mere FG OFF. Co pilot I may not have had the full story, and it is over 50 years ago!

[kenparry]

Filton could and should have been the Bristol airport, especially being so close to all necessary transport links. But when did that ever aid decision making. As for that ridiculous Lulsgate place, foggy on Hill, less said. Big opportunity completely wasted!

Well, maybe.

I lived in Bristol when Lulsgate reopened at the end of the fifties; the story from people at Filton was that the Council had not approached Bristol Aeroplane Company to use Filton. The Council bought Lulsgate from Ministry ownership. But, yes, it was an awful place in its pre-ILS days, and I remember a few SRA approaches there to minimums with little affection.

On the other hand: the Brabazon/Britannia/Concorde Assembly Hall (pick your own decade) infringed the clearance plane for the main runway - and the runway profile was such, with its significant gradients, that I'm told it did not meet the requirements for Group "A" performance.

Probably, also, there was not enough land for terminals, car parks, et al within the then boundaries of Filton.

So, a bit of a mixed bag

[PhilipG]

So far as I know apart from Grapple no V ever flew with a live weapon. In the event that aircraft were to be dispersed for real, and British weapons loaded, an element of the weapon was removed before flight, making it inert so nuclear reaction in the event of a crash, and replaced on arrival at the disposal airfield.

It was called LML, last minute loading, and were trained to do it at Marham.

In my day the Valiants on QRA were loaded with American weapons and never left the QRA compound.

Of course, being a mere FG OFF. Co pilot I may not have had the full story, and it is over 50 years ago!

Thank you for confirming what I had understood, so as I understand it, for a V Force Bomber with a British Weapon on board to be ready to scramble from a dispersal field, the two parts of the weapon had to be fitted together, I assume not a 5 minute task, one that required skilled trained staff, as well as necessary security, not all necessarily immediately available at all the dispersal sites?

Implicit in what I am saying I suppose is that during a dispersal exercise, the UK's available response was dramatically reduced as many of the V Force would have been in the air and whilst having weapons on board, these weapons were not live.

[Blacksheep]

...during a dispersal exercise, the UK's available response was dramatically reduced... The response to a surprise attack was, as always, the permanent QRA Standby.

Dispersal was meant for an escalating situation, where international tensions might reach a point that the aircraft were bombed up and sent to dispersals - effectively placing the whole of Bomber Command on QRA. Our 'Exercise Micky Finns' were logged by the opposition as they were meant to, keeping them aware of our continuing ability to generate a complete force, ready to go. Exercises are not simply practice, they are demonstrations of force capability and were an essential part of the mutual posturing that was 'The Cold War' in action.

[Treble one]

QRA was on Alpha, behind the Ops Block.

YS


YS-wouldn't not being on the ORP make it very difficult to get off the ground in time if the 'bolt from the blue' scenario had arisen?

[Treble one]

I seem to recall that someone said on PRUNE that no V Bomber had ever flown with a bomb loaded, except for the Valiants in Operation Grapple.

If the above is true, not that I doubt it, the question must be asked how did the required weapons get to the dispersal airfields? It is a long journey by lorry to some of the dispersal sites.

Of course I understand that a Bucaneer was seen flying with a loaded weapon.



I believe that during dispersal the aircraft dispersed with a real weapon which wasn't armed.


At the dispersal airfield, refuelling and arming took place. Aircraft only had sufficient fuel to get to their dispersals.


I believe I had this same conversation with Beagle a while ago. IIRC he described it as the weakest point of the whole plan, as you could theoretically get stuck on the ground refuelling and arming a weapon when the balloon went up.

[BEagle]

Not me, squire!

There are various books on the subject; whether or not they are accurate you must ask the authors.

[Treble one]

Not me, squire!

There are various books on the subject; whether or not they are accurate you must ask the authors.


My apologies Beagle-I appear to have got you and someone else mixed up.


Regards
TO