Spanish government declares ATPL as equivalent to a University degree [Archive]

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 10:13

Interesting. Can You show up as a foreign pilot in a Spain and claim a degree ?

Even if it is possible to get the degree certificate on your own you want to go through COPAC, Colegio Oficial de Pilotos de Aviacion Comercial, so you don't lose your bearings dealing with the legendary Spanish bureaucracy. If you are adamant to know I can ask it for you, assuming you are not a Spanish speaker.

More interesting is whether this would be granted to any Spanish citizen with a EASA license based in another EU country, there is a bunch of us who transferred our papers, once again, running from the never ending non-sense of Fomento.

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 10:19

Dont worry

17th Feb 2018, 10:27

Would be interesting to know if this would even work in germany or italy.
Maybe there is a way to have this covered in European Law.
:-)

sonicbum

17th Feb 2018, 11:06

I have an University degree and are a current TRI/TRE in an European major and I can assure You that I have studied and keep studying a lot more as a pilot than what I did study to get my degree back then.

what next

17th Feb 2018, 11:11

Interesting. I also have degrees in Aeronautics (German (then) equivalent to masters and ph.d) and did my JAR ATPL in my late thirties. To me the ATPL felt like one semester of the 12 which were required to get the master's degree.

Anyway, it does not matter much because who in the industry would hire someone with an engineering degree converted from a pilot's license - without any additional training that is? I have worked as an aerospace engineer for many years and my actual work was a lot closer to mathematics and computer science than to anything taught in an ATPL course. But maybe there are positions in the industry which are suited for an ATPL trainee, something like flight test evaluation maybe.

sonicbum

17th Feb 2018, 11:17

I don't want to drift the thread, but for those of You who think that You finish studying once You get Your ATPL ratings You are waaaaay out of line. That's when You actually start.

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 11:21

what next

I also went to college 5 years and I think an ATPL is more like a primary school thing, no reasoning involved, just one dimensional thinking. At least where I took it in Spain.

Anyways, so far I am having a party laughing at my former university colleagues, it turns out I am officially at their same level even though my job only consist in "pressing the green button to go up, and the red one to go down". :E

What is the Spanish government trying to achieve by doing this is beyond me. Throwing out to the streets thousands more degree holders in a country that is saturated with architects and lawyers serving sangrias and copas for 400 EUR? Hell, go for it!! Craneo privilegiado...

sonicbum

17th Feb 2018, 11:27

I also went to college 5 years and I think an ATPL is more like a primary school thing, no reasoning involved, just one dimensional thinking.

So pilots should stop looking for good T&Cs and accept any low class labour wages then. Problem solved.

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 11:34

Hey, don't look at me, I didn't invent the multiple choice test. :8

sonicbum

17th Feb 2018, 11:42

It’s nothing related to multiple choice questions as you can seat some pretty nasty ones, from psychometric to technical stuff.

Loose rivets

17th Feb 2018, 11:49

Cambridge physics graduate sitting next to me in Cass looking very stressed.

'It's not that there is anything particularly difficult in this, it's just that there's so much of it.'

The stresses then were often to do with job offers and or getting one's first command. CPL first, some years of flying and then the ALTP - in my case, via a Senior Commercial PL was quite usual.

Those hand written papers were quite searching but to anyone with a good education an a lot of time, they were quite fair. Lots of stuff one never needs of course. I never ever adjusted a latitude nut. However, I did once sit in and sign off a DC3's compass swing.

CONAIR11

17th Feb 2018, 12:31

Cusco

17th Feb 2018, 12:56

I don't want to drift the thread, but for those of You who think that You finish studying once You get Your ATPL ratings You are waaaaay out of line. That's when You actually start.

Yep You progress swiftly to a PhD in offloading drunks at Bangor.

_Phoenix

17th Feb 2018, 13:10

The aeroplane is a very complex machinery. To operate safely an airliner you need a large amount of knowledge, a little from various fields such as physics and mathematics, computer science, automation, flight mechanics, stress, meteorology, FAA regulations, human factors, you name it. This kind of brain workout could be considered equivalent to the university level for a single field of activity. However, "university degree" is just more a social and intellectual "etiquette" that sadly in some countries and cultures is too important, to circles of friends and even marriages. We certainly will not see a captain in the cockpit, a surgeon in the ER or an engineer's signature on a structural stress report, based solely on "university degree" equivalent.

galaxy flyer

17th Feb 2018, 13:16

stoneangel

17th Feb 2018, 13:16

to compare ATPL th as a degree, really ? it is not knowing what a degree is !

but hey, that's Spain, not surprising. I would like to see how is their flying standard too. lol!

what next

17th Feb 2018, 13:52

I have read a little more in the meantime and I don't think it is so much about the "difficulty" and time required between getting a university degree or an ATPL. It is more about social ranking, for example in the case of getting unemployed.

I really only know the situaton in Germany, but I guess it is not much different in Spain. If a pilot loses his medical here, he is left with a license that has become obsolete and which officially counts nothing once he has stepped out of his aeroplane. He can join the unemployment queue at the very end and doesn't need to apply for anything other than taxi driver or waiter because he is nothing but an unskilled laborer. Drastically spoken. He can apply for a qualification course but again at the level of an unskilled laborer. If he is young enough to consider studiying at university he can start there from day one.

The situation would change drastically if an ATPL would be regarded like a lower university degree (bachelor) or higher professional education (in Germany again, I have no comparison, a bacelor from university is equivalent to a "Meister" or master of crafts - which I think comes closer to what we pilots do because it is a combination of theretical knowledge and practical skill and experience). In case of loss of license one would be eligible for a high-level qualification program or given credit for a year or to at university. Which would not be a bad thing in my eyes.

Loose rivets

17th Feb 2018, 14:25

I studied and passe all ATPL exams in 9 months while working a full time job. I spent 3 years 40 hours a week in lectures and struggled to gain a diploma in Engineering years earlier.
Something not right about this.

So, do you not give any credit to the improvement in your mind by your previous work?

I left school at 14 with not so much as an 11+. I studied TV repair and that, and eyes that focussed at 8", made me a wizz with the sliderule. However, that CPL was quite a slog in the 50's and 60's and if I'd not already spent the money on flying there were dark days when I could well have given up. By the time I took the ALTP (ATPL) 5 years later, the exams were a breeze despite being more in-depth. Knowledge seemed to flow in at that age - providing the subject was interesting.

This is precisely why I don't think it wise to cram a lot of irrelevant stuff into student's brains. Especially doctors. Science covers and ever-widening part of the learning spectrum, and there simply is not time in the modern world for the dross.

The ATP still required quite a bit of refreshing, though I finished in one hour. The one question they docked, I'd written a long spiel about, but the computer didn't want to talk to me. The flying test was however much more demanding. The FAA bod asked questions I didn't know but seemed okay with my off-the-cuff answers. One I recall was how long before reaching a beacon must your speed be stabilized? Having spent years coming off BPK for Luton with the speed clacker going, I just said, 3 minutes. He just nodded. Most odd. All the more so because the night before my flight test someone had spread my Seneca down a Texas runway. I took the test in a 172.

But I'll tell you what, you get to know an aircraft when you get told to make a tight 180 not above 500' . . . and then get told to tighten the turn. My skipper looked at me and grinned. 'You loved doing that, didn't you?'

Lady Zia Wernher was not so amused. (just looked. Gosh Luton Hoo has got some history!)

PA28161

17th Feb 2018, 15:06

I have a Master of Science degree in Aeronautics. At the age of 40 years, I studied and sat the 14 JAA ATPL(A) theory subjects in order to convert a non-JAA license. Those subjects were a lot more work than anything I'd studied at University up until then.

Good on the Spanish, if it's true.

I somewhat agree.I've got MB ChB PhD BSc and the hardest part of my academic life was getting four A levels to get into university. The MB ChB is a memory slog, the PhD just 40000 words for a thesis that no one is remotely interested in, the BSc (Hons) quite manageable and not too difficult. I found studying for my PPL theory exams quite challenging. I've seen the ATPL theory papers that my son took some years ago, and those also looked quite challenging I would rate them around 2:1/2:2 degree in terms of study content, so yes I would concur with the Spanish. Of course, it all depends on the discipline, I did medicine and clinical biochemistry. Probably just a tad more difficult than a BA in embroidery

Icelanta

17th Feb 2018, 15:22

Got my Master, after which I did my ATPL. I never had to work as hard as when doing the ATPL Integrated. Mind you, that was 18 years ago, maybe things have changed.

ATPL deserves Level 6and Level 7 for Captain. If you are a pilot and disagree, you are out of your bloody mind as this will HELP you and is a recognition for your Profession.

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 17:06

as this will HELP you and is a recognition for your Profession.

Mixing apples with oranges here, me thinks.

I've never said our profession is not one that deserves the greatest respect. If anything, I've implied that is not one in which to reach profficiency solely by studying is possible. You can't study experience, teach it or pass it in an box, and that is why we are still above the market - downhill, but above average still - in terms of salary and benefits.

The day you can make a Captain by teaching 5 years of subjects we'll find ourselves in the same pit as the rest of professions. Experience still counts, statistics are there.

Elephant and Castle

17th Feb 2018, 17:45

Are you sure you where at university? at my university I had 15 hours a week tops of Lectures. Another 6 or 7 of seminars. Plenty of hours at the student union bar though.... I was studying economics. Those studying politics had half that and 8 1/2 week terms.

In any case as others have pointed out this is to do with pensions, unemployment, etc and not the level of difficulty.

ralphos

17th Feb 2018, 18:41

I have a Master of Science degree in computing and all I can say is that a degree and the ATPL are so different, that they can't be compared directly. When studying for my degree, I had to solve problems several orders of magnitude more difficult than anything required for the ATPL. It was a completely different level! On the other hand the volume of the ATPL material is huge, several times more than everything I had to learn during the 5 years spent at the university put together.

iggy

17th Feb 2018, 19:00

I was indeed. I was given class on different subjects and I was expected to be able to put all those bits of information together to build up a global and comprehensive view that would allow me to approach a problem from different points of view to create a new solution to it, all by myself, using my own resources and deductive skills.

After college I went to flight school where my class hours were higher but my grey matter usage was almost nil. No bigger picture, no global view, no scenarios, no putting together all that information to build up a criteria, just pass the mark and off you go. I even remember asking questions in the subjects I liked the most and being blasted by my colleagues there because it didn't help the exam. I know that OAA, CTC and a couple more produce some switched on young guys that are very capable, but sadly everywhere else is as I just described.

I am pulling my hairs in the cockpit with the kids I am flying with. They only know tiny bites of things and they throw it to you at the worse times possible because they don't know how to put it together. Can't blame them as they haven't been asked more than that but the worde of it is the total lack of curiosity when I give them a hint of a page in the book they may have not turned yet. They follow what I say as if I were an annoyance - and that is exactly what I am for them - just to pass the day. Guess what is happening once these guys are getting the upgrade!

Call me old school, but what if we get the reputation of the industry where it was by rising the bar, watching over the quality of teaching and avoiding zero hours at the controls of a medium jet - like the americans- instead of giving away master degree certificates with the kid's meal at BK?

what next

17th Feb 2018, 19:30

Elephant and Castle.

Similar in my case. Compare just the numbers: We were 250 students in my year on day one. 40 of us got their diploma after 6 or 7 years. Not only because it was difficult but because it meant working real hard for long hours for many years. In my ATPL course we were 12. All 12 got their license.
During my university study I spent one full year doing practicums in the aerospace industry (where I was tasked with almost everything from shoveling sand into molds at the foundry - one of the most valuable experiences in my life because it taught me what real work looks like and why things made by humans need to be treated with respect - to computing the center of gravity of research satellites). This alone is more learning time and professional experience than many students will get for an integrated ATPL course.

Still, as I already wrote above, the pilot profession needs an official recognition above Uber-taxi-driver or french fries fryer (as it is now). Therefore I hope that the Spanish approach to that subject will be adopted throughout the EU.

janrein

17th Feb 2018, 21:04

Comparing "f"ATPL or ATPL with a University Degree?

In my recollection having done the ATPL theory 10 years ago now (BGS DL, revision in Cheddar, exams at CAA Gatwick), there was nothing in it above early perhaps mid secondary school level. Hard work, but for just a couple of months and nothing really hard compared to serious studying for several years for a solid university engineering degree.

By contrast I find that during flight training and further flying, whether professionally or privately, you never stop learning, e.g. about how weather works.

In Source (in Spanish) I believe the full ATP Licence is declared equivalent to a university degree (in Spain), and not just a pass in those 14 subjects.

elpipe83

18th Feb 2018, 05:55

Just for clarification, you will get the degree only when you have the ATPL unfrozen (1500TT including 500 multicrew ops + ATPL check).
This is not about going to the flight school and getting your degree in 18 months.
Safe flights.

nicoli

18th Feb 2018, 06:42

If my memory is correct, France is giving an equivalent also for an ATPL with 1500 hours

lear999wa

18th Feb 2018, 09:55

Does anyone know what will be the process of getting the actual degree issued?

GS-Alpha

18th Feb 2018, 10:00

Volume of information to learn, does not a degree make. The difficulty level of the ATPL course content is no higher than GCSE. There is a lot of information to learn so I’m not saying it is equivalent to just one GCSE qualification, but doing 15 GCSEs still does not mean you should be awarded a degree.

sonicbum

18th Feb 2018, 10:12

We shouldn’t even be paid for flying since it’s our passion.

PDR1

18th Feb 2018, 10:20

Does anyone know what will be the process of getting the actual degree issued?

There won't be one. What they are saying is that in certain contexts (mainly do do with unemployment and social security) the unfrozen ATPL will be deemed to be equivalent to a basic BA. They aren't going to issue a parchment and have a graduation ceremony with cap & gown - that would make a complete mockery of academic achievement.

iggy

18th Feb 2018, 10:34

I think you don't know the Spanish government :p

RudderTrimZero

18th Feb 2018, 10:40

People are equating the passing of 14 ATPL exams with the passing of a degree course and concluding they're not the same. Well yes, but if you study the subjects properly and in depth, without any feedback questions, 14 ATPL subjects are hard work with way more time and effort involved than a degree. The difference is that degree courses are followed by more unpredictable examination styles and questions whereas to pass 14 ATPL exams is easy thanks to multiple choice and thousands of sample questions from the question banks.

Both have one thing in common though. You will study pointless and out of date topics that have little resemblance to modernity.

A and C

18th Feb 2018, 12:29

With four years to go to retirement I don’t really have a dog in this fight but my passing comment would be that those in academia usualy have lots of time to make their decisions be that before or after qualifying. Pilotage requires high class decisions in a dynamic environment and is without more demanding than some of the Micky mouse degrees offered in some U.K. universities but it won’t come close to an engineering or science degree at a top class university.

Mikehotel152

18th Feb 2018, 15:05

I'll add my 2 pence worth.

I have a BA (Hons) degree in Geography from a good UK university and the equivalent in Law, together with the professional examinations required to become a solicitor; and passed the ATPL with ease about 10 years ago.

Firstly, university degrees vary in difficulty. A first class degree from an average university is seen as the equivalent of an Oxbridge 2-1. Pretty much anybody can get a 2-1 from one of the new universities - my ex-sister-in-law did and she struggles to speak in sentences.

Second, a degree in humanities subjects is as much about 'learning how to learn' than actually gaining knowledge. It's about absorbing ideas from the more educated and learning how to articulate thoughts of your own. I can vaguely remember what my dissertation was about but haven't a clue whether I still retain anything else in my brain from those 3 years on the Strand. I suspect the same is true of most people who look back on their degree subject. It's wrong to compare the value of a degree with the tick-box approach to the ATPL.

Third, I guess science based degrees are the most comparable with the ATPL. Yet those studying, researching and writing essays on technical matters are surely becoming more learned than an enthusiastic budding pilot who is simply reading a book of notes specifically prepared by a company familiar with the bank of multiple choice questions? As most graduates from the ATPL examinations in the past ten years obtained averages over the 14 subjects of over 90% one has to question the value of that qualification.

sonicbum

18th Feb 2018, 15:42

As pilots we are in the books from day 1 of flying school till retirement. People that do not acknowledge that definitely do not fly aircrafts for a living. As a professional pilot be it either Airline, Corporate or whatever You are constantly exposed to thousands of pages of information varying from Your aircraft manuals, Your company manuals, bulletins, company memos, specific company manuals, airfield specific briefing and so on and on for countless of sources of information. The ATPL is just the first step that gets You to all this kind of source of knowledge that must be well mastered during day to day ops for safe and efficient flights. Experience is and always will be one of the key aspects of our profession, that is for sure. But experience has a limit as learning only by experience in our domain can result in some dangerous situations... there must be sound academic knowledge and common sense before that. All this knowledge that is not checked as some say every six months or during sim checks or every year during a line check but every single flight, as every single flight has the potential to become a sim scenario and viceversa. As I believe we all agree on the above having a recognition for our preparation as professionals with a degree-like title is something that we do deserve especially nowadays where if You look up on Universities websites worldwide You get some ridiculous curricula. I am not talking about getting ourselves an Aerospace Engineering or whatever sort of degree, but simply some kind of degree in "Aviation disciplines" or whatever so that If You worked your arse off to get an engineering degree You don't get mixed up with people that didn't but pilots can get what is in my advice the right recognition for their constant hard work.

PDR1

18th Feb 2018, 16:32

It's the same with other Professions (Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Engineers etc) - there is an initial body of underpinning knowledge & understanding (UK&U) to be mastered, and then one has to gain sufficient experience to show evidence that you can apply that K&U to real situations. Then there are management elements - people management, task management and financial management to a greater of lesser degree. And then in all the professions there is a need for continuous learning to maintain currency. An finally there are codes of conduct, ethics etc.

I have no problem at all recognising an unfrozen ATPL as a Profession - it would actually be a pretty smart idea to establish an Institute with a Charter and get that set up. But while for some Professions the UK&U is best acquired and demonstrated through university degrees for other professions it isn't necessarily so. To be a doctor or vet (I think) you require the appropriate degrees, but to be a lawyer or accountant you don't - they have professional exams as an option. To be a Professional Engineer you have to show UK&U equivilent to the level of a relevant masters degree supported by a relevant honours degree (for C.Eng - for I.Eng you don't need the masters), but having the actual degrees isn't mandatory if you can show the same level achieved by other means (and indeed that's how the majority of Chartered Engineers did it).

Anyway, the point is this - by all means go for Professional Pilot becoming recognised along side the other professions. I'd support that whole-heartedly. But don't make the mistake of assuming that because it's a Profession the associated basic UK&U must be equivalent to a degree, because it just isn't - neither in depth nor scope of study. Just as it isn't for Chartered Accountants.

janrein

18th Feb 2018, 17:56

Thanks elpipe83 for the clarification. Is what I thought.

sonicbum

18th Feb 2018, 21:02

To be a doctor or vet (I think) you require the appropriate degrees, but to be a lawyer or accountant you don't - they have professional exams as an option.

So You mean I can be a lawyer during my days off ?

abgd

18th Feb 2018, 21:38

Arguably medicine shouldn't be considered a degree. The joke goes that it's 97 GCSEs taken over 5 years, and that would be about right for the academic part of it. So the genie's already out of the bottle when it comes to vocational qualifications being recognised as degrees...

Really, 90% of what going to university is about, is going to live away from home amongst people with a different background to your own and how to prioritise work and play with nobody looking too closely over your shoulder. Whether an ATPL achieves this, I don't know.

Eddie_Crane

18th Feb 2018, 21:42

What a really stupid idea! No doubt it had to come from the Iberian peninsula... :hmm:

Volume of information to learn, does not a degree make. The difficulty level of the ATPL course content is no higher than GCSE. There is a lot of information to learn so I’m not saying it is equivalent to just one GCSE qualification, but doing 15 GCSEs still does not mean you should be awarded a degree.

exactly what GS says!
The technical content and level of difficult is at best to GCSE level, at worst middle school knowledge.

Also agree wholeheartedly with MH152:

Yet those studying, researching and writing essays on technical matters are surely becoming more learned than an enthusiastic budding pilot who is simply reading a book of notes specifically prepared by a company familiar with the bank of multiple choice questions? As most graduates from the ATPL examinations in the past ten years obtained averages over the 14 subjects of over 90% one has to question the value of that qualification.

I see no reason why passing 14 multi-choice papers and subsequently achieving 1500 hours should entitle pilots to a degree.

There is nothing that involves any preparation at degree level in our profession. PDR1 also sums it up pretty damn well.
There is a level of responsibility for life and equipment, of course. Which should be reflected in the remuneration package. But a degree for an Atpl? What a crock of :oh:

KayPam

18th Feb 2018, 23:15

Mister

19th Feb 2018, 00:53

The Spanish goverment have been doing this equivalence for at least 15 years, nothing new.

If you read it properly you will see it says they will convalidate the " titulo de piloto". Thats a yellow paper the Spanish authority gives you when you finish your license ( invented by them). That means no joy for those of us who do not have or never held a Spanish license. Thats the answer the COPAC gave me several times between 2002 and now, and they are not willing to help with the convalidation unless you have this paper.

Goodluck

krismiler

19th Feb 2018, 04:32

It’s useful to have the recognition the licence deserves. When filling in online forms I can only enter “high school” or “other” in the education field. It puts us at a disadvantage and we don’t get credit for our status in applications.

Landflap

19th Feb 2018, 09:27

In the same way that degrees have been dumbed down to the point where one poster's assertion that his ex-sister-in-law gained a 2-1 (whatever that means) with ease, yet being unable to articulate, the ATPL has also been dumbed down to multichoice, easy to pass levels. So, they both have been dumbed down & should be equally recognised.

Actually, sorry to say this, but way back when GCE 'O' levels were quite hard, and 'A' levels were very hard, the UK ATPL was extremely hard because it required passes in at least 9 subjects, all hand-written with pass marks, on average, of 65%. Couple I can think of, like plotting & Met Practical, requited 80% just to pass. Let's say, 9 'A' levels, all at grade A to get you your ATPL writtens. Just to get into Uni (to use modern parlance), you needed just two 'A' levels with decent grades. My E grade pass in Economics and E grade pass in British Constitution failed to get me into Oxford but gained me a place (Law) at Bristol.

The 'old' UK ATPL that we baby-boomers gained after PPL, CPL, Senior Commercial and, consequently, around 1000hrs commercial experience & eight weeks of hell at Sir John Cass College was definitely worth degree status.

Once it is all sorted, can someone tell me where I can pick mine up ? Just to hang on the wall where I, and I alone, can really admire my endeavours. Cheers.

Akrapovic

19th Feb 2018, 10:29

Totally agree - ATPL theory in the last 20 years or so is just a memory test. It's not about how much you understand the subject, but more about learning the feedback parrot fashion. I'm sure type ratings have also been dumbed down over the years too.

This is an age-old debate that rears its head every year or so - my guess is, generally by those who don't have a degree, but want to claim the ATPL is somehow just as worthy. It's not!

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 11:38

It's generally the other way around, people who got a degree but never made it as professional pilots or never went too far in their career.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 12:52

It’s useful to have the recognition the licence deserves.

Aerial Bus Driver, 1st Class?

When filling in online forms I can only enter “high school” or “other” in the education field. It puts us at a disadvantage and we don’t get credit for our status in applications.

What status? Look I really hate to break it to you, but there is almost nothing in an ATPL learning path that even begins to meet the requirements for an accredited degree in the UK. OK, so there's a lot of stuff to cram - taxi drivers suffer the same (Ealing Broadway to Mornington Crescent when the yellow ball is on the blue diagonal and residential one-way streets are wild), but degrees aren't about cramming information (not beyond 1st year,a t any rate). Manual skills are learned on a full-time craft apprenticeship taking many years, but they don't claim these are degree-level either.

A BA/BSc graduate should be able to assimilate information and experimental/research results, review them and draw conclusions, with some commentary on methods. A Honours Grad should be able to define objectives and conduct the reseach as well, and identify methods to scale sources of error. A Masters Grad should be able to do that plus design the experimental/research methods with a rigorous and quantitative assessment of error sources (scope and scale), plus reflective critque on the defined objectives, methods and data sources. A PhD grad should be able to postulate a "new" piece of knowledge (a principle, theory or conjecture) and then identify methods by which this might be tested, and against what criteria (plus all the other stuff).

An ATPL doesn't even get to the "basic degree level" in this - it's a totally different kind of learning. Sure, an ATPL+TR could expect a high probability of successfully flying and landing a jet in adverse weather with some systems malfunctions*, but that's a manual skill not a something involing higher education. Yes, they can understand, recall and use reams of data (generated by someone else) on airspace categories, air regulations and the systems architecture of their current aeroplane, but that's what taxi-drivers do when they learn "the knowledge".

It's a Profession, but it's not a degree. Get used to it!

* But not today, apparently - because I waited for well over two hours in the terminal before they felt they could manage the weather this morning... :E

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 13:20

PDR1 are You an active Airline or professional pilot ?

Eddie_Crane

19th Feb 2018, 13:20

:D PDR1, could not have put it any better myself!
Whilst I agree there should be some form or recognition for the profession and skill required, a degree is WAY over the top.
Volume of information required to be remembered does not equal degree. Never mind the "academic" content of it!

In terms of recognition, I stand by my assertion of remuneration vs. academic title. The skill and level of responsibility borne by the pilot should be reflected in salary.

As others have said.. this argument rears its ugly head every now and again, but really.. if people want a degree, "pay" your dues and and get one like every other graduate? Plenty of people I've come across at work, who have gone and got degrees in a number of disciplines, all while flying a jet for a living.

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 13:22

Sure, an ATPL+TR could expect a high probability of successfully flying and landing a jet in adverse weather with some systems malfunctions*, but that's a manual skill not a something involing higher education. Yes, they can understand, recall and use reams of data (generated by someone else) on airspace categories, air regulations and the systems architecture of their current aeroplane, but that's what taxi-drivers do when they learn "the knowledge".

That is the evidence You have no clue what You are talking about.
Source : myself, TRI/TRE and in training management of an European major.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 13:36

:D PDR1, could not have put it any better myself!

Damn - can I have another go at it? I'm not used to people agreeing with me1

In terms of recognition, I stand by my assertion of remuneration vs. academic title. The skill and level of responsibility borne by the pilot should be reflected in salary.

Absolutely. I do not wish to challenge in any way the salary or status of a professional pilot. I just challenge this silly idea that it is equivalent to a degree, 'cos it ain't.

Look, when I went to Uni I had all the usual aspirations - fame, fortune, hot babes and fast cars. But I chose engineering as a career so fame, fortune and hot babes were immediately off the menu and I was just left with the fast cars and the lettuce after my name. Had I chosen "professional pilot" then I would have had access to the fame, fortune and hot babes, and probably still had the fast cars, but I would never have got the lettuce. If you want the lettuce after your name you do have to do the work and achieve the degree, not just bitch about it later.

It's either that or share out the cash and give use 2nd dibs on some of the totty.

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 13:48

But I chose engineering as a career

I was right then.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 13:49

How many degrees do you have, sonic?

Eddie_Crane

19th Feb 2018, 15:05

Had I chosen "professional pilot" then I would have had access to the fame, fortune and hot babes, and probably still had the fast cars, but I would never have got the lettuce. If you want the lettuce after your name you do have to do the work and achieve the degree, not just bitch about it later.

It's either that or share out the cash and give use 2nd dibs on some of the totty.

I'm not too sure about any of those... I ain't seen no fame, fortune or fast cars (though I have noticed the occasional Porscha, Lambo, Aston etc in the crew car park!)... hot babes..hmm, better look over me shoulder before I type anything, the wife could be hovering around!

But I do agree about having to put the work in for a degree!
I will re-iterate: ticking boxes to pass 14 Atpl subjects does NOT in any way shape or form equate to any work required at degree level. Equally, having achieved 10,000 or 30,000 hours flying a 300T jet around the globe does not entitle one to a degree! What academic achievement have we exactly attained to be able to say we should be awarded a degree?

Despite what others are trying to say, this is a job that requires no particularly high academic standards! Sure there is an element of aptitude, hand-eye coordination, decision-making, teamwork.
However, as someone else has said previously, most Atpl candidates achieve 90%+ pass marks on all subjects. That really says it all about the academic level of knowledge required to pass the Atpls...
The exact same goes for a Type Rating. It's just an awfully massive amount of technical info and procedures. I know because I've done 3.
But for heaven's sake it's not degree level learning!

What PDR1 said about successfully obtaining an ATPL and a TR is essentially true! We take an awful amount of information, and very basic for that matter, and apply it to our job. Again, airmanship, a "non-eventful" div to St Johns or Nizhnevartovsk, a successful landing in crosswind with gusts to 45kt, or a well-handled engine fire are NOT something you can go and claim a degree for!

You want a degree, go to Uni like everyone else who wanted a degree did before you. Simples really.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 15:33

You did forget the part of the ATPL process which elevates the candidate to godhood.

:)

andy148

19th Feb 2018, 16:24

If the 14 ATPL exams are not considered to be at degree level, and thus should not entitle the holder to a degree. How about aligning the exams with experience and brining it on line with the Qualification framework http://https://www.gov.uk/what-different-qualification-levels-mean/list-of-qualification-levels.

For instance, say you join the pilot profession with the minimum of qualifications, or base line qualifications (ATPL's). Accrue experiance over many years, doing in house development course's along the way that compliment your continued growth (sim, LPC, type ratings, upgrades). At a certain level you can step onto the framework with a vocational qualification that is equivalent to a degree, or will allow you to claim points towards years of study towards a degree.

This has been implemented successfully within the military for many years, it has allowed people a very good spring board to future careers, legitimizing their years of experience.

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 17:09

How many degrees do you have, sonic?

BS in Aviation Management, mandatory for my position.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 17:49

BS would appear appropriate.

Akrapovic

19th Feb 2018, 18:08

It's generally the other way around, people who got a degree but never made it as professional pilots or never went too far in their career.

Not in my experience, but in either case, it's a bit pathetic.

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 18:37

PDR1 is an example.

PDR1

19th Feb 2018, 18:47

Sonic, old fruit - there are plenty of your ATPL colleagues who have agreed with me, so it clearly isn't a matter of me "not knowing what I'm talking about". You're just making a public fool of yourself.

sonicbum

19th Feb 2018, 19:02

Had I chosen "professional pilot" then I would have had access to the fame, fortune and hot babes, and probably still had the fast cars, but I would never have got the lettuce.

No need to comment further I believe.

Aerial Bus Driver, 1st Class?

OK, so there's a lot of stuff to cram - taxi drivers suffer the same (Ealing Broadway to Mornington Crescent when the yellow ball is on the blue diagonal and residential one-way streets are wild)

See above.

Sure, an ATPL+TR could expect a high probability of successfully flying and landing a jet in adverse weather with some systems malfunctions*, but that's a manual skill not a something involing higher education.

There is just a little bit more than that. Whenever You have 5 spare minutes have a look at the Manual of Evidence Based Training (https://www.icao.int/SAM/Documents/2014-AQP/EBT%20ICAO%20Manual%20Doc%209995.en.pdf).

Sonic, old fruit - there are plenty of your ATPL colleagues who have agreed with me, so it clearly isn't a matter of me "not knowing what I'm talking about". You're just making a public fool of yourself.

If they are active professional pilots I respect their opinion as they know what the story is.

eduelp

19th Feb 2018, 19:17

I did an engineering degree before becoming a pilot.

In no way can the cognitive effort of them compare... Flight school felt like going back to elementary school

sonicbum

20th Feb 2018, 15:40

Fair enough, I would be curious to see Your reaction if Your employer brings this up at the next pay review.

RVR800

20th Feb 2018, 16:41

Many years ago the ATPL underwent a process to align it with other vocational qualifications. Many people claimed tax relief on training undertaken. The Government then disallowed that and it stopped and so did the vocational framework. We are now talking in the UK about vocational qualifications AGAIN. Its a cycle.

PDR1

20th Feb 2018, 16:44

Fair enough, I would be curious to see Your reaction if Your employer brings this up at the next pay review.

Brings what up?

sonicbum

20th Feb 2018, 17:20

This comment from eduelp

Flight school felt like going back to elementary school

PDR1

20th Feb 2018, 18:12

Why would he (the employer)?

BehindBlueEyes

20th Feb 2018, 18:40

I suppose when it matters, I would rather someone who is a damn good pilot up at the pointy end than a member of MENSA or a First from Oxbridge.

When a relative of mine was training at a well known Spanish flight school, there were several graduates, one even with a degree in aeronautical engineering, who struggled with the sheer volume of learning and, despite being used to studying, found the course no easier than the non graduates.

Interestingly, my daughters English degree could easily have been ‘compressed’ into a one year course, rather than the three years it took. She only had lectures a handful of times a week so she was able to hold down a part time job as well (and still came away with a First) She was at a top class university but they were pretty spoon fed over what to study and how and when their essays were due. Whereas at flight school, my nephew worked 9 - 5 every day in class, then 3 - 4 hours studying in the evening. In contrast to my daughter, if he didn’t understand anything or felt he needed help, it was up to him to seek out the tutor or do his own research.

Finally, I wonder if any flight students would think about suing because they didn’t get a job at the end of the course?

Graduate loses bid to sue Oxford over 2:1 degree - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42974641)

PDR1

20th Feb 2018, 19:21

I suppose when it matters, I would rather someone who is a damn good pilot up at the pointy end than a member of MENSA or a First from Oxbridge.

No argument from me - as I have repeatedly said I support the idea that steering aluminium rates as a Profession, right up there with Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers and Accountants. Just don't try calling it a degree because (as you so plainly put it) you don't need that level of education to fly a plane.

Finally, I wonder if any flight students would think about suing because they didn’t get a job at the end of the course?

Graduate loses bid to sue Oxford over 2:1 degree - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-42974641)

Ooh, looky here - the kid can use google to find one single case that was never going anywhere!

What about these fifty (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/business/05loan.html)? Or these (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/us/13vegas.html)?

Looks to be quite common actually...

BehindBlueEyes

20th Feb 2018, 19:50

Fair point and mea culpa; I didn’t check my facts. :ugh: It’s just that sheer arrogance of that particular graduate really stuck in my craw when I saw the BBC report.

PDR1

20th Feb 2018, 21:56

Mine too. My immediate reaction was that a man more deserving of a sound horsewhipping has yet to walk this earth - if you know where he lives I'll send the gamekeeper round.

I guess my fundamental point is that if you want ATPL to be respected as a Profession (which it certainly could/should be) then seek respect for what it IS rather than trying to portray it as the one thing it isn't.

That's all

TNIS

21st Feb 2018, 08:14

This is linking with the full ATPL not just for the Frozen one...You need pass the Subjects...true but after that: 1500TT 500 multicrew + PIC and Night...after...again a simulator to have that. As you see that Degree is just for Comercial Pilots working in a multicrew and with enough experience as PIC.

GS-Alpha

21st Feb 2018, 08:34

I guess my fundamental point is that if you want ATPL to be respected as a Profession (which it certainly could/should be) then seek respect for what it IS rather than trying to portray it as the one thing it isn't.
I couldn’t agree more.

Glassos

21st Feb 2018, 16:50

Europeans love all those theoretical tests for the ATPL; asking all sorts of arcane stuff that has absolutely no value in day-to-day ops. The FAA has one test, huge multiple choice question bank. Study the bank, take test, get in the plane. I don’t see a noticeable difference in pilot success.

Which is why US airlines require a Degree to get hired. Getting an ATPL in any other country is an academic challenge, which fills the same square that US airlines need by requiring a degree. Namely, that you have the intellect and knowledge required to operate a complex machine in a complex environment.

SID PLATE

22nd Feb 2018, 14:34

So You mean I can be a lawyer during my days off ?

'Days off' ? You're 68, hope your not still working for a living. i especially hope you're still not flying people around in aeroplanes.

I looked at this thread and thought "Nah, it's not worth getting involved". But then the crass stupidity of some of the ideas posted changed my mind a bit.

I've a degree in aero engineering. I did it because I thought it might help in my flying career. It has to some extent, but only a bit. It did help me get a place on a sponsored ATPL cadet course (remember those ?). However the only exam I failed was the initial aeronautics exam. I was trying to be too clever with half remembered equations, and simple multi choice answers. I had to simplify my way of thinking before the resit. Since then, over a career of a few decades, I've hardly ever had to use any of the specialist knowledge from the degree course.

To argue that the level of knowledge required to pass an ATPL exam is equivalent to that required to pass a UK degree course is either misguided, wrong, or just stupid .. depending on your level of diplomacy.

Dan Winterland

23rd Feb 2018, 02:17

Many organisations treat the ATPL as a degree equivalent. Where I work, a degree is a minimum qualification for an ex-pat work visa, but the ATPL is treated as the equivalent of a degree- which is just as well, as there wouldn't be many pilots here. And I'm currently studying for a MSc without having a previous degree. The entry standards for my course are 'a good science degree, or considerable industry experience backed up by qualifications'. My ATPL was acceptable. The Spanish seem to be formalising this. Good!

PDR1

23rd Feb 2018, 07:32

As I understand it the only thing the Spanish are formalising is that an unfrozen ATPL (to describe it loosely) will be accepted as higher education for the purpose of some unemployment and social security benefits - that's all.

The entry requirements of a part-time tutored MSc are usually just guidelines to indicate the sort of person who might be able to complete it - these courses are very lucrative for universities and they rarely turn anyone away except for those courses which are accredited for things like professional registration. My more recent masters was one of these part-time ones, and even though it was an engineering MSc run out of a maths faculty (and needed a significant grasp of both calculus and Laplace) they accepted standards who only had CSE maths. I found myself giving a crash course in some undergrad maths to one of them - from an O-level maths grade C to integrating trig functions and doing bode plots in about three months. But she was cute so it wasn't that arduous...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to belittle these courses. An MSc is an achievement regardless of where the student started. All I'm saying is that acceptance onto the course isn't a reliable indication of equivalence of entry qualifications.

slowjet

23rd Feb 2018, 09:03

Someone made the rather good point that the dumbed down ATPL's of today have matched the dumbed down degrees of today. So, they are equivalent. The very taxing ATPL's of the 1970's were, I suggest, pretty close to, say, a BA in Politics, Economics & Philosophy from Loughborough. Equal standards have been maintained albeit downwards.

PDR1

23rd Feb 2018, 09:23

Someone made the rather good point that the dumbed down ATPL's of today have matched the dumbed down degrees of today. So, they are equivalent.

Falacious reasoning. That's like saying that if 10 is dumbed down to 8 and 5 is dumbed down to 4 it makes 8=4.

The very taxing ATPL's of the 1970's were, I suggest, pretty close to, say, a BA in Politics, Economics & Philosophy from Loughborough. Equal standards have been maintained albeit downwards.

Really? Which part of the ATPL syllabus included the requirement to do original research? That's a mandatory element of even a basic (non-honours) degree.

At the risk of labouring a point - there are *no* UK recognised degrees in any subject which can be obtained by just multiple-choice exams.

slowjet

23rd Feb 2018, 12:45

PDR1, calm down. ATPL of the 70's was the comparison with the degrees of today. Then, there were NO multi-choice exams. Everyone requiring hand written submissions. Don't even get me started on how ,for example, in Met Practical, we had to construct an entire met chart, decode most stations, show the centre of the low, centre of the high, plot the fronts, give an" actual" (using correct language ) of a departure point, correctly identify a destination, decode that as well and then, with good knowledge of geostrophic theory & Buys Ballot's law, offer a forecast for the destination. Crikey, that was just Met Practical requiring 80% to pass. Met Theory only needed 65%. Gosh, I did say " Don't even get me started" but you trolled me out !Nowadays, ATPL has dumbed down and so, has, my goodness, your every day degree in Social Media Studies . My ATPL of the 70's is equal to any degree of today. Easily by far. THAT, my dear fellow, was the point.

Groundloop

23rd Feb 2018, 13:38

My ATPL of the 70's is equal to any degree of today.

That is a truly ridiculous claim! Does not come close to an Engineering degree today.

Reverserbucket

23rd Feb 2018, 14:28

Perhaps not but it likely far surpasses the required standard achieved by a number of graduates today. Regardless though, I have seen examples of expert handling and airmanship delivered by graduates holding fairly mediocre degrees and some extraordinarily poor flying from apparently very sharp cookies on paper - I was informed by an F/O following a landing event requiring intervention that he couldn't understand why he was struggling to judge the roundout and flare because "I've got a degree"!
Fortunately, a flying career in many parts of the world is still one where the only degree necessary is a modicum of common-sense and reasonable level of basic educational standard in order to reap the benefits, enjoyment and reward of a professional skill based occupation, in the company of generally decent, likeminded and entertaining colleagues while offering opportunities to see almost all of the earth and spend some time in interesting places over the span of your working life. Few careers requiring graduate level education can boast the same.

PDR1

23rd Feb 2018, 15:13

This is degenerating into hogwash. No ATPL was *ever* equal to any degree then or now because there is no requirement for an ATPL to undertake original research (a mandatory element of all degrees). You assert that your pilot qualification (as awarded by Pontious himself, no doubt) must be superior to any degree ever awarded - how on earth would you know that? Have you actually taken all of those courses? Of course you haven't. You just have almost psychotic levels of arrogance and hubris.

The repeated, and embarrassingly silly, reports of how graduates have exhibited shortcomings as pilots are utterly irrelevant. It's like saying "I once saw an ATPL who couldn't clear the roots that were blocking his sewer, so therefoer all pilots must be inferior to drain cleaners".

Flying is not a degree, but can be a profession. That is patently obvious and is acknowledged by many/most of the professional pilots (both those with degrees and those without). But what we are seeing here is the massive inferiority complex of that small proportion of the ATPL population who firmly believe that they must be superior to everyone else in all respects.

If you ever DO formally organise yourselves as a profession I sincerely hope you set up processes to identify these poor souls and ensure they are weeded out of the profession to avoid further embarrassment.

BBK

23rd Feb 2018, 16:25

PDR

Has it escaped you that this is the Terms and Endearment section for professional pilots?
Just curious old chap why you see fit to lecture those you clearly see as inferior. When I have more time I might post my thoughts seeing as I started my CPL NAV studies immediately after sitting the theory for an MSc which I completed two years later.

Incidentally where I used to work both my line managers had completed Doctorates having started their careers as apprentices. Both were very down to earth chaps and not the slightest bit up their own bottoms. Just saying!

PDR1

23rd Feb 2018, 17:25

It's not me who is seeing people as inferior. I have been consistent in saying my fundamental point is that if you want ATPL to be respected as a Profession (which it certainly could/should be) then seek respect for what it IS rather than trying to portray it as the one thing it isn't.

Apparently some pilots are such snowflakes that they cannot allow the suggestion that others have greater academic achievements than they do, while we are more than happy to recognise that professional pilots have much greater flying skill/proficiency/knowledge/experience than we do. But that still doesn't make it a degree!

PDR1

23rd Feb 2018, 21:35

That is a truly ridiculous claim! Does not come close to an Engineering degree today.

Quite. But it does provide a near-perfect illustration of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

Elephant and Castle

24th Feb 2018, 06:13

PDR. You miss the point completely despite the fact that it has been pointed out to you several times.

1. Piloting commercial airliners (ATPL - Airline Transport Pilots Licence) IS a profession that is an obvious fact. The profession is entered by passing the ATPL exams AND gaining experience -1500 hours in multi crew airplanes- AND passing a practical exam.

2. The Spanish authorities have equated an ATPL to a degree for the purpose of grade classification in their existing system of pensions and social security benefits. They have NOT said that all ATPLs will be awarded honorary degrees. They could have opened a whole new classification in their system just for ATPLs but they have preferred to consider an ATPL as a degree to keep it simple. They have done the same for other professions, for example for Army officers or Merchant Navy officers.

3. No one is saying that a degree in Telecommunication engineering is the same difficulty as David Beckham studies (Staffordshire University) or for that matter an ATPL. What they are saying is that they will be classified the same for social security purposes.

Gordomac

24th Feb 2018, 11:17

We could wind it up with a bit of humour before the handbags really start coming out.PDR ; I thought "hubris" was something I put on my salad in sunny Cyprus. Oh, and with your degree, you should know how to spell."Falacious". It has two "l's".

In the late sixties, BOAC/BEA had a love affair with University Graduates. Normal (if that really is the word) candidates for the College of Air Training were required to offer the General Certificate of Education showing at least five passes at Ordinary level including Maths, Physics & English Language. Two further passes were required at Advanced level. Broadly, university entrance requirement. Subjects like Art, Needlework, Domestic Science (cooking), PE, Netball etc were all excluded.

The love affair started if you could offer a degree. Even in the advert, BA (as the joint corporation is known today) suggested that special acknowledgement would be offered as all degree entrants would, of course, go "up" to Oxford rather than smelly Hamble. Of course, they would do a shorter course (13 months rather than 18) and these potential Nasa Space Cadets would gain a "Frozen ATPL" at the end of the shorter course.

A degree, even in zoo-ology, would be embraced by the Hamble Selection Board.

I was "up" at Oxford on a sponsored CPL/IR course and made chums with some of the "BG graduate" Course members. Most appeared inarticulate and unwilling to inter-act with members of other courses. Some, who bothered, made it quite clear that they intended to stay with BA for a short term and then pursue Post Graduate work with NASA on the Space Mission Programme, etc. One very likeable bod went on to own & run his own GA company making a fortune within the time-frame of my "graduating" and going from Viscount First Officer to Trident First Officer. Drat !

I became most unpopular with this group for suggesting that they were, therefore, taking up places more suited to the "A" level brigade, focusing on career motivation with the sponsoring airline.

PDR will , no doubt, suggest more "hubris", perhaps ,even ,psychotic tendency towards a more envied group . Touch of the green-eye coming through in your posts dear chap but it has been a humorous, light hearted exchange for my Saturday morning read. Thanks.

Oh, like someone else, once it is all sorted, I look forward to coming back "up" to Oxford to pick up my degree acknowledgement of the fierce ATPL's of the seventies.

PDR1

24th Feb 2018, 13:09

PDR will , no doubt, suggest more "hubris", perhaps ,even ,psychotic tendency towards a more envied group . Touch of the green-eye coming through in your posts dear chap but it has been a humorous, light hearted exchange for my Saturday morning read. Thanks.

You may be surprised to hear that I agree with you - I say "may" because anyone who actually reads what I've posted rather than assumed I'd said something else will already have seen it.

I am not, and do not, say that people with degrees make better pilots because piloting doesn't need the things needed to gain a degree, and gaining a degree doesn't give you the things you need to do piloting. It should be patently obvious that therefore an ATPL (or whatever) is not the equivalent of a degree, and nor is a degree the equivalent of an ATPL - they are completely different things.

I have degrees (and I'm a chartered engineer) but I only took flying as far as a PPL-IMC. I haven't held a stick for over 20 years and haven't been P1 for more than 25 - these are the life choices I made. So any of those who carried on to CPL, full IR or have more hours or even those who are just more current than me are undoubtedly better pilots. Just as with by education, expertise and experience I will probably be the better engineer. Do I envy those who are better pilots? Certainly on some days I do. I have often found myself striving to mitigate the institutional stupidity of the MoD* and on those days I deeply envy anyone who flies for a living. But I don't see myself as superior or inferior to these people - we are not in the same field so it would be an apples/monkey-wrenches comparison.

All I have done is disagree with the repeated assertion by some that "my ATPL is equivalent to a degree" because, as agreed by many of the ATPLs on here, such a statement is what is technically termed "utter twaddle" - as would be the natural corollary "a degree is the equivalent of an ATPL".

_Phoenix

25th Feb 2018, 04:04

In some societies or countries, the social status is important, more than it should be. Therefore, this ATPL equivalent to university degree might be a social class recognition, but it doesn't bear on much value for the real labor market.
Is a truck driver an intellectual? Probably not. Is the FO of A380 an intellectual? Probably yes

CXKA

25th Feb 2018, 05:38

My personal take on it is that the ATPL exams do not justify a degree, however to gain the actual ATPL licence you need to have constant study over many years and probably multiple type specific courses (B747, B777, A320 etc) and that to me was much more effort and time consuming than the degree. Just my two cents.

Meester proach

25th Feb 2018, 12:44

Lot of intellectual snobbery here.
My sister has a degree in English and my plane stuff must be harder cos she has a degree in reading old books.....right ?

PDR1

25th Feb 2018, 12:52

How would pilots like it if people started claiming they "had the equivalent of an ATPL, 2 type ratings and 20,000 hours because they have a degree in aeronautical engineering"?

As I have said - seek respect for what your profession is, not for what it demosntrably isn't. The one with the snobbery are those who feel they must lay claim to "degree equivalence" because they feel being a professional pilot is to demeaning (which I don't agree, as I have made clear repeatedly in this thread).

Strumble Head

25th Feb 2018, 14:40

(Ladies and) Gentlemen, just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying this thread for many reasons. Couldn't get into commercial aviation as a 'driver, airframes' due to dodgy eyesight but both my father and one of my sisters held UK ATPLs and enjoyed their careers. One group of my family are very hung up on the 'must have a degree to be ... ' thing. The possible drivers for that view have been discussed in many variations on this thread - thank you. As a professional engineer I enjoy winding those individuals up by saying 'well surely a UK ATPL (gained back in the day etc.) must equate to an MSc. - discuss.' And then watch the fun start! PS - could we start another thread somewhere on the Oxbridge conceit of being able to convert one of their basic degrees in basket weaving (sorry, 'hard' degree suspicion of 'soft' 'arty' degrees) to a Masters after three years (time, not further professional training) and payment? No? Oh well ... :8

Parkbremse

25th Feb 2018, 14:51

I think some people here have a misunderstanding on what equivalent means. What it definitely not refers to is perceived difficulty.

I hold a german diploma in a natural science, this degree is equivalent to a MSc in the British or US System as it encompasses roughly the same requirements, workload, curriculum and examination standards. For that reason its not equivalent to a Phd nor to a BSc, honors or not even though depending on which exact courses you compare, the difficulty may vary greatly. (a BSc at Uni A can be way harder to achieve than a MSc at Uni B)

The biggest difference between a university degree and other forms of training or apprenticeships is that a university degrees primary purpose is not to prepare you for a job but to qualify youfor academic research in your chosen field by scientific standards. That doesn't make it better or worse, it's simply a completely different approach requiring a very different skill set and things to be taught.

Therefore an ATPL can never be equivalent to a degree, aerospace engineering or something else, independent of how much experience you have or how difficult you perceive it to be. The goal is totally different (flying safe and economical in a commercial environment compared to academic research) and it therefore requires a completely different approach to training. To give an example, it would be completely unreasonable and unnecessary to teach ATPL students the Navier-Stokes equation and the level of math required to understand it as it would be to teach an aerospace engineer meteorology. Or for the ATPL student to conduct a wind tunnel experiment and for the engineer to be able to fly proficiently in instrument conditions. For the respectively other however these are essential parts of their training.

So people stop trying to gain respect for your / our profession by trying to make it into something it definitely isn't just because you perceive it as something difficult. I agree wholeheartedly with PDR on this.

Journey Man

25th Feb 2018, 15:41

I have a B.Eng degree in engineering, an EASA ATPL and various other licences from around the world, and am finishing up an MSc.

I don’t think an ATPL theory exams are particularly difficult, cognitively; more a case of volume of material to learn. I do feel that anyone who has had to be a subject matter expert, i.e. conduct a training needs analysis for their company, has experienced similar tasks as those of of a degree purely due to the amount of regulatory research, etc..

_Phoenix

25th Feb 2018, 15:43

The one with the snobbery are those who feel they must lay claim to "degree equivalence" because they feel being a professional pilot is to demeaning (which I don't agree, as I have made clear repeatedly in this thread).

Intellectual snobbery has a different meaning. A good reading about the subject :
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/relationships/love-sex/Are-you-an-intellectual-snob/articleshow/17505343.cms

Direct Bondi

25th Feb 2018, 16:09

A and C

25th Feb 2018, 16:57

Bondi, I have to admire your ability to turn any subject into an anti Norwegian rant.

Landflap

26th Feb 2018, 08:28

I might have to sit this out now because I am beginning to agree with everyone ! PARKBREMSE ; Very well said indeed.

Direct Bondi

26th Feb 2018, 08:32

A and C, the word "rant" is not applicable to my post. The vocabulary used in your opinion must emanate from an ATPL education equivalent.

The higher educated will see the irony of the Spanish establishment attempting to raise the status of a particular group of workers, while SEPLA, purporting to represent the best interests of that same group, accept agreements lowering the workers status.

Gordomac

26th Feb 2018, 08:53

LANDFLAP : Me too. Ok, ok, but will you degree bods allow us to put letters after our names too ? You know, I fancy, GORDOMAC ( UK ATPL/IR/Perf A , B767) the last group being current aircraft. Ah, not current on anything now, so, maybe RETD to replace currency. C'mon PDR, give us something !

PDR1

26th Feb 2018, 11:46

Happy to. I've been looking at what it is that would make a profession into a Profession, and it comes down to a number of things which professional pilots do have, but two things which they don't. The two things are:

1. An Institute of some sort which defines and administers Professional status. It would take a week or two to set this up, and needn't be expensive. There are lots of examples to use as models, be they the Engineering Institutes (IET, IMechE, RAeS et al), the Chartered accountant instute (ACMA etc), the solicitor's instute (the Law Society), the Barristers institute (the Bar*), the barristas institute (Costa) (:E), the medical institutes (RCS, RCN et al) etc etc. In fact now I think about it the RAeS is already an accredited institute for Professional Engineers, so you might be able to persuade it to take on a similar role for Professional Pilots.

2. A self-regulatory function in its institute so that the Institute becomes responsible for assurance of maintaining and policing Professional Standards. I don't think this currently exists - this assurance is done externally rather than by self regulation. But you could fix that easily enough.

So if those two aspects were addressed you could establish yourselves as a Profession and have the legally protected exclusive right to "post nominals" (lettuce after your name) as I have the right to add "C.Eng" and anyone who does it without hav9ing the charter would be committing an offence.

As to what those post nominals would be, well that's entirely up to you and your Institute. You could have "CP" (chartered pilot), but if it was up to me I'd choose "Professional Pilot Regulated Under New Exposition", so that Joe Blogs could, on achieving Professional status, sign himself as:

Joe Blogs PPRUNE**

Strumble Head

26th Feb 2018, 17:54

PDR - the professional bodies are Institutions, not Institutes. The Women's Institute is a wonderful thing, but does not confer any form of professional status on participants. Whereas I consider myself thoroughly institutionalised.

PDR1

26th Feb 2018, 18:03

I have met professional women, but nothing that a large dose of penicillin couldn't fix...

But you're right, of course. That'll teach me to check what my autocomplete is actually autocompleting with.

drfaust

27th Feb 2018, 00:15

Interesting discussion. I agree that the ATPL theory is barely worth comparing to A levels. That being said, the job itself of piloting a commercial airliner does require significant levels of technical expertise, experience, human skills and higher cognitive function.

Especially when troubleshooting and problem solving in the air in a hostile and often time constrained environment.

Let’s just say this: What is the probability that the average airline operator could not pass an average university course? I would say zero.

Remember, 90% of courses at university nowadays should not be there in the first place. But if we look at University as what it, in my opinion, should be (SCIENCE) then there should be no comparison.

iggy

27th Feb 2018, 04:36

Let’s just say this: What is the probability that the average airline operator could not pass an average university course? I would say zero.

Would love to fly where you fly now, Dr Faust. New adquisitions in my present job would make you change that statement in a heart beat. They can't even follow when I explain them NM/minutes to station and v/s to use to descend!

vikdream

27th Feb 2018, 06:49

While the Spanish government attempts to elevate the status of pilots with education comparisons, the Spanish pilot union SEPLA appears to have lowered the status of some member pilots.

By contradicitng its prior position and submititng to a collective agreement with Norwegian Air Resources, SEPLA has effectivley accepted its members are rented service industry employees and not airline employees. SEPLA members flying for Norwegian have no union representation to the airline (their real employer).

So much for your "status" as a pilot in Spain, whether university educated or fantasy equivalent.

You don't seem to have much of an idea about what you are saying.

SEPLA are defending pilots in low-cost airlines within Spain, well, because it is the reality there. Ryanair is number 1 in national flights.

They are there to improve pilots conditions. The new Norwegian Collective Labour Agreement is a massive improvement compared to the old conditions. What should SEPLA have done?

As for the ATPL, there are many degrees out there that you get by paying a bit of money and go to university not paying much attention. Apart from some engineerings, law, medicine and a few others, reaching a full ATPL in aviation is a lot harder than getting a degree in teaching.

Direct Bondi

27th Feb 2018, 09:04

You don't seem to have much of an idea about what you are saying.

Oh really.

On 4 March, 2015, Dagbladet news reported comments by SEPLA President, Javier Martinez de Velasco;

“Pilots must be employed by an airline and cannot be hired from an external crew company”

“The bosses and the office workers, and even the ground staff can be hired out, but not the pilots”

Article link:
https://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/norwegian-piloter-i-spania-haper-og-ber-for-norske-kolleger/60704442

As previously stated; by signing a collective agreement with Norwegian Air Resources, SEPLA has accepted its members flying for Norwegian are rented service industry employees and not airline employees. Furthermore, with no union representation to the airline – their real employer.

Before responding, be aware I have a Certificate of Secondary Education, CSE, Grade 5 in woodwork and a less formal Spanish university degree/ATPL.

PDR1

27th Feb 2018, 09:12

As for the ATPL, there are many degrees out there that you get by paying a bit of money and go to university not paying much attention.

Really? Please name them.

sonicbum

27th Feb 2018, 10:48

PDR what is quite puzzling in all this discussion is not the fact that the ATPL should or should not be compared to a degree but the fact that You are constantly on these pages bitchin about how much of a über genius You need to be to achieve any kind of studies past high school except of course the ones required to be a professional pilot, which of course you are not. You define yourself as a chartered engineer and you spend half of your day on a professional pilot's forum in the terms and conditions section leading your crusade against any sort of equivalence between pilots studies and any academic title. In my opinion your attitude shows that you have a big load of resentment towards our profession otherwise you would have dropped the question long time back after proving your point. If ATPLs holder do get an academic equivalence to a degree nobody will steal your job or decrease your working conditions as nobody will be awarded an engineering degree or any other degree for free. The equivalence would only be meant for other usages that other users have already explained to you.

PDR1

27th Feb 2018, 11:03

I'm merely trying to correct what appears to be a significant misaprehension in certain quarters about wnat is required to achieve a degree. There seem to be many who think that a degree can be obtained without any work, or by just mugging-up on facts and regurgitating them in an exam. Neither of these are true, as most of your colleagues seem to recognise but some are still struggling with. Nor do I suggest that obtaining an ATPL can be done without effort or by just regurgitating learned facts.

I don't claim to be an "uber genius" - you made that up. Nor do I claim that people with degrees are somehow "better" than people without. I have made that very clear on several occasions. All I am saying is that there is no way to somehow equate the two - they are completely different things.

Elsewhere in this place someone asked the question"Why do people live near airports & then complain?". I think there is a similar question "Why do people choose not to take a degree and then complain when people don't accept they should be regarded as having one?".

But you do get this weels "Playing the man rather than the ball" award. That is usually taken to indicate that he you can't discuss the subject in a grown-up manner and are just spitting dummies. If that's the way you want to present yourself it is your democratic right to do so.

sonicbum

27th Feb 2018, 11:47

PDR the ball has already been played for a while and You still do not get it. We got Your point, thank You very much, that has been told a while back to You. Now, it is a professional pilot forum and we are dealing with our profession related matters be it a degree or anything else so it would be sensible from You to understand this point.
Then I wrote in my previous post "You defined yourself as a chartered engineer" and I get a PM from You with your full name and employee number because I might not believe You... I have absolutely no reason not to believe You but you behaviour is childish to say the least. I think You are way out of line and my point on Your resentment towards the profession and the category seems to be valid then according to your behaviour. Anyway if the mods let you here for me you're mostly welcome.

sonicbum

27th Feb 2018, 11:52

Anyway now to move away from all these drifts... Thanks to all the posters that have clarified the positions of the Spanish towards the ATPL-degree discussion which definitely makes sense.

PDR1

27th Feb 2018, 12:00

It's not my employee number - it's my Engineering Council Registration Number. Those two pieces of information would allow you to contact the Engineering Council and verify my status which you seemed to be doubting. If you weren't then fair enough, I misunderstood what you were saying.

switch_on_lofty

4th Mar 2018, 09:22

Feeling philosophical this morning after reading this article on the BBC website which is about young people entering traditional trades, leatherwork, wheelwright etc.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42441366
I have a science degree, am pretty good at practical skills and hold an atpl. Relative difficulty aside; I think that piloting sits firmly in between the academic and practical worlds in terms of approach, understanding and competence.
I think that is why I really enjoy it because it is challenging and rewarding on many levels.