Vickers Viscount pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

[Mooncrest]

The Viscount is my favourite aeroplane. Although I never had the opportunity to fly on one, I believe it is still largely held in high esteem by professionals who worked with the aircraft. I would be interested to read any stories from such folk. Was it a good pilot's aeroplane or was it a pig to fly ? Was the impact of four Dart engines at full tilt an issue in the passenger cabin or barely noticeable ? An engineer's dream or nightmare ?

My Viscount experience is limited to seeing numerous examples from Northeast, BA, BMA and BAF at Leeds Bradford over the years. Plus the occasional Dan-Air machine too. It would be nice to add to that experience with some hands-on stuff too. Thankyou.

[DaveReidUK]

The Viscount was a fabulous aircraft to fly on, though I only had one opportunity LHR-LHR on a post-maintenance airtest, complete with stalls and an IFSD. :O

[kcockayne]

My first ever flight was in a Viscount - BEA G-AMOH in 1960 & the next in G-AOFX, from Guernsey to Jersey return. After that, I flew on them many times, including all of BEA’s 806s ( several times each) & most of the 802s. Only one international route, ELLX to EGLL. All the others were domestic - mostly out of Guernsey & Jersey to EGLL & HI with BEA/BAW. But, also out of EGKK with BUA on 700 & 800s ; & flights to EGMC with Channel Airways on the 700 & 800. Must have made about 100 flights in all. Wonderfully comfortable a/c & very scenic views from those large windows. 4 darts never caused any noise issues for the pax. No vibration either, unlike the Vanguard !

[cavuman1]

Like kcockayne (we're both a youthful sixty-eight!), my very first flight was aboard a Capital Airlines Viscount. I was simultaneously frightened to death and transfixed with curiosity of taking wing. This was in 1955, the first year Capital operated the type. They were the first U.S. airline to do so.

I vaguely recall the excellent view afforded by the large ovoid windows and remember with amazing clarity the cockpit door remaining open for the entirety of the flight from New York's Idlewild to Washington D.C.'s National. Any passenger interested in viewing the cockpit was welcome, and every soul on board was dressed to the 9's! The good old days, yes? :ok:

- Ed ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClyjHYYbk-I

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/1960_-_Capital_Airlines_Vickers_Viscount_at_ABE_Airport.jpg/220px-1960_-_Capital_Airlines_Vickers_Viscount_at_ABE_Airport.jpg

[RatherBeFlying]

My father took us to Hawaii and/or Montana in the 50s.

Toronto - Calgary on a North Star was cacophonus. A very small taste of what Bomber Command crews went through.

The Viscount was a delight:ok:

Besides the wonderful windows, I believe that it was the most comfortable airliner I have been on. Lots of room, but remember that ten year olds find more elbow room than adults.

Some decades later I spent several hours in a Viscount simulator. It was a very honest aircraft, but the instructor did his best to "kill" pilots with multiple failures:}

[ZFT]

Spent many hours on the Viscount simulator at SAA in early 70s after being introduced to the aircraft whilst at British Eagle in the late 60s.

Many flights on SAA, Air Rhodesia and later on BMI

Last flight was on a Virgin aircraft from Maastricht in late 80s

As everyone is highlighting, the view and comfort was delightful

[rog747]

I had a most wonderful time being Duty officer pax & Ops and Traffic Coordinator for BMA at LHR 1977-1985

(my first experiences of Viscounts was as a boy going to SEN on a Friday night with mum and dad to have gammon steak egg and chips in the airport restaurant and watch all the Channel Airways Viscounts in the 1960's loading up for PMI JER GRO RTM OST and more.


At BMA we had a large fleet of Viscount 814's and one 836
(that being G-BFZL one of two Viscounts that TAA ordered, but didn't take delivery of, were specified with the optional lounge aft of the rear door, which had accommodation for 4 passengers, instead of the baggage hold and complete with a small window on either side, and an extra window forward, we removed the lounge)

All of our VC8's carried 73Y pax and the seating was pretty comfy, fabulous views and we could serve hot breakfasts (or hot dinners on the night charters)
As for engine noise - it could be irritating if the prop sync was out.
Depends where you sat but it could be quieter down the back.

crew was 2 pilots and 2 cabin crew
a jump seat was available in the flight deck - always handy if we had BMA or BA staff on standby tickets commuting home up North after their duties.

Technically during my time the fleet behaved well - the aircraft that were more often tech with snags than the others were the ex Nora/LH fleet of 4.
there was never anything that was ever a regular tech issue - the engines rarely caused issues

BMA Viscount fleet in my time were:
G AZNA/NB/NC
G AZLP/LR/LS/LT (LT was rebuilt and re-reg'd G-BMAT after a nasty prang at LBA using the wings of BAPD)
these 7 were ex SAA

G AYOX
G BFZL the 836 series was youngest viscount flying for us and was built for TAA NTU
G BAPF/PG (we also had PD and PE) all ex Nora AS/LH

Re: the 7 South African Airways viscounts: Mike Bishop was in Israel 1972 when he noticed in Flight Magazine the advert for the viscounts. He then went down to S.Africa and was told the fleet was to be sold as a whole and not separately. He only had Board approval to buy 1 or 2 viscounts and not 7! Unabashed he decided to offer the same cash amount he had board approval, but for all 7. As we now know, the offer was accepted and the rest is history. He also got the spares and the Sim.
Those 7 a/c set up BMA for the big time

Re the 4 ex german viscounts. These were never as reliable or corrosion free as the SAA ones and they appear to have been less successful overall.
PD and PE were spares donors.
They all def went Tech more often!


our prime LHR Viscount routes then were to LPL MME LBA BHX EMA and the IOM
we did also go LHR to NQY and Strasbourg too but we gave those routes up just before I joined

From EMA and BHX the viscount flew to CDG DUB AMS FRA GLA and BRU plus JER and GCI (at weekends JER and GCI was super saturated!)
The (ex BCAL) LGW-BFS route was operated by both Viscount (and DC-9) but once we got the LHR-BFS licence in 1984 the LGW route was dropped.

the viscount even up to 1981 did regular IT summer holiday charters
LPL-PMI and BHX-MAH on night flights.
a 5 hour trundle through the night but great for staff travel - nip up on the last LHR-LPL of the day, stay onboard and pop down to Majorca for beers.

At LHR one could often see 4, 5 or even 6** Viscounts on the Terminal 1 alpha/bravo domestic pier especially on a summer Saturday or Sunday evening.
**As all the DC-9's and the other Viscounts were away at weekends off flying in and out of JER and GCI from the outstations.
One Friday evening 4 Viscounts went tech and all AOG at LHR, we lots of fun that night

we also did night weekend charters from LPL and MME to PMI & ALC or PSA & RMI but on the DC-9's.

in 1982 BMA were awarded the LHR to GLA and 1983 the EDI routes followed in 1984 by the BFS thus thrusting us head to head with BA to compete with their super shuttles.
The Viscount AFAICR did not ever get used on these routes (a 707 did sometimes get put on the GLA when either BA or BR went on strike)
edit -
my grey cells recalls maybe a Viscount subbed for a DC-9 LHR to EDI or GLA once - pax were not happy as we could not get the hot catering trolleys onboard - i think we put the hot meal containers in the loos.

We leased Viscounts to Cyprus AW

photos C of a pal and taken on G-BMAT LBA-LHR iirc

I was lucky to fly on the Viscount maybe a 100 times or more

[Mooncrest]

Clearly the passengers and ground staff were fond of the Viscount. Lovely stories and pictures. It would be good to hear some pilot and cabin crew stories as well.

Those windows were rather splendid. As I recall the F27 and Herald also had oval windows though not as big. Must have been a Dart thing !

[WHBM]

First ever flight, Cambrian V.700 G-AMOO. Liverpool to Isle of Man. 4 engines for 85 nm. A few thereafter over the years, finally a surprise BMA V.800 one LHR-Teesside, a substitute for a DC9.

As I recall the F27 and Herald also had oval windows though not as big. Must have been a Dart thing ! I, too, have wondered whether these windows were actually the same stock item from the same glazing manufacturer.

[rog747]

finally a surprise BMA V.800 one LHR-Teesside, a substitute for a DC9

hi there

the VC8 on the LHR-MME run was a regular actually as on a Friday night and all flights at weekends especially in the summer because the DC-9's all upped sticks to the do the Jersey ''bombing runs'' from the outstations such as to/from:
LTN GLA SEN CVT LPL MME EMA BHX - many on W patterns

also at a low point we only had one DC-9 in the fleet and if she was tech or on mx in AMS then a VC8 would do the Teesside all the time if we could not get a sub charter in such as Martinair or Finnair

A BMA Viscount as you may know holds the record for the fastest flight time to London from Teesside
Xmas day? - cannot recall the actual flying time - someone here will know...

edit :
found it on PPrune!
A Viscount does hold the LHR - MME record. Capt Joe Sharps, one Boxing day, howling southerly gale, 09L (10L?) departure to a 05 (06?) arrival, direct track. I may be wrong but I think the time was 24 mins airborne. No doubt one of my (ex) colleagues will correct me. There were numerous attempts to beat the time but it was never bettered. BMA, sadly missed.

ps:
a BMA DC-9 did it in 28 mins airborne time - 27R to 05
37 mins chocks to chocks

Fastest airbourne I remember ever is 14 mins BHX-LHR including a full hot English breakfast for the entire cabin!
once round the hold for the hosties to try and clear up and less than 20 mins on a LPL-LHR again with full hot breakfast

the BEST ever hot breakfast we had at BMA was on the first early flight down BD331 from MME to LHR
back then the catering was supplied by the hotel St George at the Middleton St George airport...
big sausage, mushrooms, smoked bacon and KIDNEYS
yum it was delicious by the time it soaked up all the juices on arrival at LHR

[WHBM]

hi there

the VC8 on the LHR-MME run was a regular actually as on a Friday night and all flights at weekends ...also at a low point we only had one DC-9 in the fleet and if she was tech or on mx in AMS then a VC8 would do the Teesside all the time.
It was actually a midweek midday sub for a DC9 schedule. I had done a TWA 747 LAX-LHR, and connected to a departure at about 1430 on to Teesside.

howling southerly gale, 09L (10L?) departure to a 05 (06?) arrival
Wouldn't expect to use 05 instead of 23 in a howling southerly gale.

[rog747]

It was actually a midweek midday sub for a DC9 schedule. I had done a TWA 747 LAX-LHR, and connected to a departure at about 1430 on to Teesside.


Wouldn't expect to use 05 instead of 23 in a howling southerly gale.

do you recall that year>? that would be BD336 at 1425 - the quietest flight of the day


Re the fastest Viscount flight from LHR to MME
taking off on 09L to arrive runway 05
accepted the crosswind and could be that the winds at MME were not so strong on the straight in landing?
I was on duty I think but I don't recall the year (late 70's or early 80's) otherwise we could look at the actual Metars & TAF's

[WHBM]

do you recall that year>? that would be BD336 at 1425 - the quietest flight of the day
About Easter 1978.

[VictorGolf]

Just to balance the thoughts a little, on a previous similar thread a former Ansett Viscount captain was scathing about the cockpit layout on the aircraft. Personally I have clear memories of spotting wildlife from the previously mentioned windows en route from Blantyre to Salisbury in Air Malawi's Viscount 7Q-YDK in 1974. Happy days.

[Mooncrest]

I've heard the cockpit layout on the 800 series was an improvement over the 700s. Slight thread drift but did the two variants share the same type rating ?

There's some good Youtube videos of G-APEY in the Southend circuit. She sounds magnificent.

[rog747]

About Easter 1978.

AH!

well we had then G-BFIH named Dovedale (may still have just had its N65358 regn?)
and the N48075

plus another on lease from Finnair OH-LYB named Darley Dale then Ulster then Merseyside - which was on the LGW-BFS then the LPL-LHR

not sure why you got a Viscount that day - tech I spose !

none of the Viscounts were named

[cavuman1]

Hello and Happy Saturday One and All!

I have always been curious about the extreme length of Viscount's nacelles, which housed Rolls-Royce Dart turboprop donks. Was this design element simply a function of weight and balance (CG) considerations, or were their other reasons in play?

Thanks in advance for your expertise...

- Ed :)

[Discorde]

I have always been curious about the extreme length of Viscount's nacelles, which housed Rolls-Royce Dart turboprop donks. Was this design element simply a function of weight and balance (CG) considerations, or were their other reasons in play?

Almost certainly CG factors, cavuman. I think turboprop engines were generally considerably lighter than the piston equivalents. Google 'Dart engined DC3' to see how far forward the engines are mounted on that type to prevent aft CG.

[longer ron]

After I left the RAF I had worked for Airwork East Africa at Thornhill AFB in Zimbabwe for 10 months as a civvy on the Hawk T60's.
When I resigned from that job I flew from Thornhill up to Harare in a Viscount of Air Zim - nice flight :)

When I arrived in Zim originally I had flown down to Thornhill from Harare in a Zim Air Force CASA 212 with a flight looey pilot and an Officer Cadet as Co.

I flew back into LGW in a Air Zim 707,being impressed how green southern england was :) - I did miss the outstanding Gliding conditions though :hmm:

[cavuman1]

Thank you so much for your answer and direction to the turboprop-powered DC-3, Monsieur Discorde! Proof positive of your CG argument. Though the development of the Viscount in the late 1940's did, in fact, briefly feature reciprocating piston engines, that variant was never built. Viscount was a turboprop - and even turbojet - engined beast from its inception.

One thinks that the extra-long nacelles and associated structural members might impose a significant torque penalty on the main spar mounts, especially during flight through turbulence and high power settings. One wonders why Vickers' aerodynamicists did not simply move the wing a foot or two forward to alleviate this potential problem by shortening nacelle length. I ponder the Lockheed L-188 Electra's whirl mode failures, from which the venerable Viscount never suffered.

Perhaps it was all a case of "Nacelle Envy"? :}

- Ed ;)

[India Four Two]

The same C of G issues apply when installing turbines on Otters and Beavers.

[washoutt]

Cavuman, shouldn't the wing be placed more aft, when wishing for shorter nacelles, i.l.o. forward?

[rog747]

never seemed at BMA to have any CofG or trim issues on the viscount 800's we had

it was always bang down the middle IIRC !

it was very difficult to out trim one -

the rear baggage hold was in the aft cabin so you had to be mindful of rear trim

[Centaurus]

The RAAF had two Viscounts for No 34 (Special Transport) Squadron based at Canberra and used primarily as VIP transports in the mid-1960's. I flew about 600 hours on them some of which was as QFI. Although heavy on the controls they were easy to land with a "soft" undercarriage which meant an average pilot could consistently make greaser landings. However, the cockpit layout was a nightmare of levers and switches all over the place and the view from the cockpit was limited because of the window design. A beautiful looking aircraft though.

[WHBM]

The regulars here doubtless know of it, but for anyone interested in Viscounts, down to the detailed history of each airframe, and all sorts of sidebar stories, an afternoon can be spent here

About the Vickers Viscount Network (http://www.vickersviscount.net/About_us.aspx)

[dixi188]

IIRC One significant change from the 700 to 800 srs was the position of the two hydraulic pumps.
On the 700 they were on the outboard engines and on the 800 they were on the inboards.
This caused a few incidents when taxiing on two engines after landing if the wrong ones were shut down and there was no power to the steering.

[cavuman1]

Now you've got me thinking, washoutt. (That doesn't happen too often!) It seems to me that shortening the moment arm between prop/engine and wing attach points would move the centers of gravity and balance rearward, therefore the wing would also need to be moved rearward to maintain balance. You are correct, Sir! I owe you a Heineken!

- Ed

[Midland 331]

What a super thread!

I grew up with the BMA Viscounts, from aged 6, seeing them with feathered props in the circuit at Castle Don.,passing overhead our family home, taking my first ever flight on one to Jersey in 1968, climbing all over ones on check in the hangar, later boarding passengers on them during a ramp summer job for BMA, then landing for the first time ever at LHR, in autumn dusk, seated on the jump seat of 'LT.

Just when I thought I'd left them behind in going away to Leeds University, they started operating into LBA in 1980, passing over my student house close to the 32 OM. My housemates used to mock me for breaking off from a meal to pay respect to The Company Flag as they whined over.

The point of this slightly self-indulgent reflection is that I'd presumed that they would be around forever. They are gone, with no flyable example preserved. Perhaps a warning to us. Aircraft can play a large background role in our lives. One day we might feel the same way about the Dash 7-Q400.

The way the engines bounced on the nacelles was vaguely amusing, but probably disconcerting to nervous flyers. Common with other mature R-R Darts, milky-coffee-coloured fluid used to stream from the engine casings. Put a half-empty plastic cup on a tray table in the forward seats, and it would "walk" around the table due to vibration.

Those windows:- The late Kim Lerner, Teesside-based BMA cabin crew, said that she felt she might fall out the large windows when serving the window seat on a row of three. She poured coffee whilst looking 4 miles almost straight down at passing greenery.

The sound:- there was a unique airframe resonance harmonic when the first engine started, almost like a groan of pleasure. As a young BMA ticket agent at Teesside, I used to make sure all my post-dispatch tasks were done before going onto the ramp to hear the Sunday BD341 or Jersey start up.

I hear that there is one somewhere in Africa that might just be recoverable if the right wealthy enthusiast was so inclined. Any takers? :-)

[ViscountFan]

I had many flights on them between the UK mainland and Jersey, while working in Jersey in the 1970s. A beautiful aircraft to fly on with those large windows, hence my Pprune monicker. Such a contrast to the rather tired looking BIA Heralds which had to suffice when schedules dictated!

[vctenderness]

My supernumerary flight as BEA cabin crew was on a Viscount to Jersey. The start of 40 years which took me on to Trident, then BOAC 707, VC10, Tristar, DC10, 747, 767/757, 777.

I remember well a flight from Aberdeen to LHR on a Viscount where flight and cabin crew had bought wooden cases of kippers which were stowed on the flight deck. The smell is with me today!

[Jhieminga]

I have always been curious about the extreme length of Viscount's nacelles, which housed Rolls-Royce Dart turboprop donks. Was this design element simply a function of weight and balance (CG) considerations, or were their other reasons in play?
Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if the nacelle length wasn't also influenced by the total length of the engine plus exhaust. Being one of the first turboprop airliners, the designers may have wanted to keep all the hot bits in front of a firewall.

[WHBM]

For Dart positioning compared to the w/b required for a piston engine, best comparison is the old Convair 440, which were actually converted to Dart power as the Convair 600.

The plane of the props, and the extent to which the engine projects in front of the wing, seem to be much the same.

440 :

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=convair+440+photo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=RnsRSKyJzGg20M%253A%252CQ5IzTcEMAyqz-M%252C_&usg=__FUfUA_aC1vL92pIZgrLaKdcyv54%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1msOdrrDZAhXCIcAKHf5hDb8Q9QEILzAD#imgrc=RnsRSKyJ zGg20M:


600 :


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=convair+600+photo&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=7-MXLk4s9sdBJM%253A%252C1Q2wpv8APiCliM%252C_&usg=__b80O4if-ZgCckSVIzys0P_WVw80%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0hdOOrrDZAhUkJcAKHfjdBBsQ9QEILzAD#imgrc=5dOk2kQ1 sk22cM:&spf=1518987705642

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

I just bumped a thread I posted some time ago containing a link to historic film footage of Viscount operations in New Zealand.




BTW....I undertook one Viscount flight in 1967 (at the age of 13) when I flew with New Zealand National Airways Corporation (NAC) from Napier to Christchurch. It involved two sectors: Napier to Wellington in a Fokker F-27 Friendship; and Wellington to Christchurch in a Vickers 800-series Viscount.


I can still remember how smooth and vibration free the Viscount was, and also those HUGE oval windows.

[Mooncrest]

Why did the Viscount have an elliptical tailfin ? I can only think of the Dove and Heron that also have them. The Electra is close.

[DH106]

IIRC One significant change from the 700 to 800 srs was the position of the two hydraulic pumps.
On the 700 they were on the outboard engines and on the 800 they were on the inboards.
This caused a few incidents when taxiing on two engines after landing if the wrong ones were shut down and there was no power to the steering.

I believe only the very early 701's (BEA) and 708's (Air France) had the pumps in the outer engines. The majority of the 700's had them as per the 800/810's.
Regards

[washoutt]

I owe you a Heineken!
Any time of the day, sir, any time

[Mooncrest]

I remember the BMA aircraft at Leeds starting the two inboard engines on stand, taxiing away and starting the two outboards before reaching the runway. This would suggest the hydraulic pumps are linked to the inboard engines.

Another YouTube video features an A.W. Argosy flying over Brisbane. Obviously the noise is very Viscounty on account of the four Darts.

[WHBM]

The Viscount was not just a short haul aircraft. By 1960 various operators were running them from London down to points all around Africa, and Iraqi Airways ran them on London to Baghdad, and straight onward down The Gulf to Delhi. Leave London at 1930 on Monday, and with 6 stops along the way, get to Delhi at 0330 on Wednesday.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ia/ia61/ia61-2.jpg

[rog747]

The Viscount was not just a short haul aircraft. By 1960 various operators were running them from London down to points all around Africa, and Iraqi Airways ran them on London to Baghdad, and straight onward down The Gulf to Delhi. Leave London at 1930 on Monday, and with 6 stops along the way, get to Delhi at 0330 on Wednesday.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/ia/ia61/ia61-2.jpg

indeed - and BUA ran them all the way down to west africa - with a few stops
and Hunting LON down to East Africa

i think BEA's furthest was GIB Tangiers Malta and Sardinia with Athens and Nicosia in the east
but the aircraft went on from ATH and NCO as far as TLV IST Beirut BAH DOH KWI and Damascus operating under a different flight number with Olympic AW or Cyprus AW

comets in 1961 replaced the VC8 on these routes

LHR to CPH and SVO was a BEA route too for the Viscount

[surely not]

ZFT, the Viscounts operated on the MST-LGW route for Virgin were wet leased from British Air Ferries (BAF) and Euroair.

BAF was a major operator of the Viscounts in the 1980's thru to around 1998 using them in both passenger and freighter roles. They had at least one that had a proper freight door that was marketed as the Freightmaster. For quite a few years in 90's they used them on ParcelForce contracts with 2 based in EDI and 2 based in BFS flying down to CVT each weekday evening and then returning.

I think the Tinnitus I have now is probably down to being too close to too many RR Darts on Viscounts, F27, HS748 and Gulfstream 1 over the years. On the outside the noise was of a pitch that could be quite unpleasant at times, but inside it wasn't too bad on the Viscount.

My first Viscount flight was on a British Eagle VC7, G-ATDR, returning to LHR from LPL. It was filling in for a tech BAC 1-11.

Subsequently I had quite a few flights in Viscounts and always enjoyed the experience

[Herod]

Why did the Viscount have an elliptical tailfin ?

Genetics I suspect. if you look at the Wellington, Viking, Valetta and Varsity, you can trace the development. If it works, don't change it?

[Basil]

Just noticed I've about 2k hrs on the 802; mostly Highlands & Islands.
Seemed to work OK but remember having to watch it for bank on touchdown due outboard prop ground clearance.
Lovely big pax cabin windows to look at Fingal's Cave en-route Benbecula.

Longest flight:- Glasgow>Orly 2:20
Recollect arriving home from Paris with a bottle of Beaujolais in one pocket and some smelly cheese in the other, or from Kirkwall with live lobsters at £3 each. :ok:

I think the Tinnitus I have now is probably down to being too close to too many RR Darts on Viscounts, F27, HS748 and Gulfstream 1 over the years.
Ah, that's the reason, is it? Bas, also ex Argosy.

My first trip in a Viscount was following paying off my ship in Bremen in 1963. We'd plunged across the North Sea for a day after crossing the Atlantic and I remember thinking: "This is a much more civilized way to get around!"

[browndhc2]

My first Viscount flight was as late as 1977 a Ba Regional day trip SOU-JER Then Three Years later a jump seat with GB Airways on G-BBVH to Tangier and back Whilst on an Air Cadet camp on the Rock. Despite my ambitions to become a commercial pilot Little did I know that I was to log Two and half thousand hours in the Viscount 802/6/7 and 808.

It was typically British, Solid with some quirky features. Its the only Aircraft I've known with Handbrake leavers on the control column, this feature being deleted on the 810 series. Then there was the wind-up timer to remind you to change the fuel feed from inners to outers.
On the 800 we had a lever under the windscreen to unlatch the wipers prior to use not dissimilar to those Lucas wiper motors on early land rovers.
The ex Ba aircraft were fitted with the Smiths flight system and SEP 2 Autopilot love it or loathe it.

The flight deck was shall we say bijou and looked as if the instrumentation and switches had haphazardly been tipped in from a wheelbarrow.
Weather radar tucked away on the LH sill and the generator panel tucked behind the co-pilot.

But what was it like to Operate?

With the distance of the Years, I recall the controls being well harmonised if rather heavy. Rudder authority was good making the aircraft adept in crosswind situations despite the lack of ground clearance on the outer propellers.
The last stage of flap100% was selected at the flare and I think most pilots tended to add a knot or two to the quoted VAT to achieve a smooth touchdown.
Despite having Four Darts whistling away the flight deck was quieter than the Herald.
Visibility was adequate from the small DV windows for the circling approach on to 15 at Sumburgh.
Pressurization was semi-manual requiring the switching of spill valves at various levels, having come to the aircraft in its later life they were operated at a reduced differential pressure limiting the maximum level to 170.Lots of big round glass instruments. The SEP 2 would track radials and fly an ILS to Cat 1 minima.

I see mention has been made of the Bd simulator.BAF purchased a redifon unit which for some strange reason was housed in High Wycombe. It was later set up at Southend, unfortunately, the 40's valve technology did not take kindly to the relocation and in the Summer they used to reach critical temperature resulting in some power settings and indications bearing no relation to pilot input.
It was, of course, a fixed unit with a camera moving over a model landscape for the visual element.
It did provide a good way of finding your way around the cockpit layout which varied between series hence a separate type rating for the 700 and 800.Crews did not fly both the 800 and 810 simultaneously in VF.
1179 Training was carried out on the aircraft including staling and simulated Two engined approaches for a P1 endorsement.

I do recall that the beast had a number of floor access panels for manual flap extension(I don't recall the handle all 4 foot of it being carried) and a manual outflow valve closing device that was operated in the event of ditching!
Inevitably all these features were buried under 4 tons of newspaper or parcel farce debris.

Passenger reaction was very favourable, especially when subbing for the scheduled ATP. Certainly, there were some unflattering initial comments about the ATR when it replaced the Viscount on the Shell contract.

It was sad to see members of the fleet wheeled on to the grass the airport perimeter having undergone spares recovery. More than one aircraft provided parts for the restoration of G-APIM at Brooklands which is now lovingly maintained by a dedicated group of volunteers. Its the only Viscount to have crossed the Thames by the tunnel!

The things I really remembered from my time on the type were crystal clear mornings heading out over Scotstown head, or the Night visual on to 24 at Southend rolling the wings level at 1000' on final.
Four Rolls Royce engines and a leather armchair to watch the world go by Happy days.

[one11]

The Viscount was not just a short haul aircraft.


Conversely some UK sectors were ultra-short-haul. I flew in Viscounts from Liverpool in the 60s & 70s with successively British Eagle, Cambrian, BA and British Midland. One Cambrian flight to/from Heathrow in 1970 routed via Chester (Hawarden/Broughton). Unfortunately being February it was a night flight in both directions. Also Liverpool to Edinburgh involved Cambrian to Glasgow then another short hop with BEA to Edinburgh as an intermediate stop on the way to points further north.

[Mr Mac]

All my Viscount experience was with Channel Airways before 1970 and involved hops from Southend to Southern France Perpignan as I recall, and Palma Majorca. I did not fly on them again until a flight back to LBA with BM which should have been DC9 but ended up with Viscount due to tech issue which would have been early 80,s.
Always struck me as being a gentleman,s A/C in that it did everything in an unhurried way - a view from this SLF anyway. Did some cockpit visits and I do agree about switch gear being scattered, it was like looking at an explosion in a boiled sweet shop as I recall. Also I once witnessed one do 5nr failed approaches on a still night at Perpignan before finally landing. Departing passengers looked very Green and one was sick on tarmac - you remember these details when you are 7 !

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Midland 331]

Considering how spacious the cabin was, the flight deck really was quite cramped.

I seem to recall the ground power socket being somewhere inconveniently close to the props on the belly, and ground crew having to inch along to extract it.

[DaveReidUK]

I seem to recall the ground power socket being somewhere inconveniently close to the props on the belly, and ground crew having to inch along to extract it.

Sounds similar to the Il-18, where the GPU plugged in under the centre-section. As I recall, it was a slightly unnerving experience disconnecting it.

[surely not]

Spot on Midland 331, it was down to how long the power cable was as to whether the ground crew put the GPU to the front and had a shorter heave on the cable to gather it in and make sure you're clear of the props before leaving the safety of under the fuselage, or put it behind the wing, side on so that the propwash didn't blow the GPU over, and the ground crew were bathed in the hot exhaust fumes as the packed the heavy cable onto the GPU and drove clear.

The only aircraft I saw that had a worse position for the GPU lead was the Swearingen Metroliner which had the socket on the starboard engine nacelle midway between the props and the wing leading edge!! None of the engineers enjoyed this.

[surely not]

Looking through my Viscount photos I am reminded that if the GPU went in front of the wing it was usually parked in front by the nose so that the Flt Deck could see it and wouldn't start to move off stand with the GPU detached but still in the way!!

Hopefully I have attached a photo I took at LGW that shows this

[albatross]

https://www.nfb.ca/film/routine_flight/
I hope this works. Great little film.
Luved the Viscount and Vanguard.

[JAVELINBOY]

First ever flight was in an Viscount operated by the RAF at RRE Persore, it was a test bed for the Radar boffins, also had flights in their Hastings that operated alongside the Viscount never managed to get a flight in one of the Canberra's on their fleet.

[Mooncrest]

In the Northeast and BA days my father frequently used to fly between Leeds and Heathrow and also Amsterdam on the Viscounts. He too has described it as a gentleman's aeroplane. A Gill Air captain I once met also described the Boeing 727 as such. No coincidence that these are my two favourite aeroplanes.

[dixi188]

Some of the later Viscounts had the ground power socket behind the wing on the left side of the fuselage. SOAF 501 and 502 were like that.
The batteries and power distribution was in the belly forward of the wing spar (G,H,J&K panels-sad that I still know). Most A/C had the socket near this equipment to save cable weight I suppose.

The 4 Voltage regulators were under the cabin floor at this location and setting them up so that they all shared the load equally could take an hour or more doing ground runs, with much shouting from the cockpit to adjust one or another regulator. Just when you thought you had got them all balanced, tightening the lock nuts would upset them all again.

[v812]

Also my favourite aircraft hence my log in.Many happy days handling Viscounts in Guernsey. Start up was interesting with GPU behind the wing. You would stand under fuselage behind wing until all 4 engines running then disconnet cable and walk under fuselage to take nose wheel chocks away (all without ear defenders). On 1 occasion when I was about 17 gave a big tug to disconnect cable aircraft went on to Bournemouth. An hour later Bournemouth ring to say who disconnected ground power as you took out aircraft electrics. On looking at GPU plug we found a couple of pins from aircraft. Was not popular, aircraft had to do battery starts for the rest of the day.
In Channel we used to get up to 84 in the 800 series where other companies str.etched to 78, could mean interesting time doing the loadsheet when a/c was full.
Shortest sectors flown Gci-Jer and Bhx-Ema whilst longest 4 hrs Ema-Bgo

[Midland 331]

>You would stand under fuselage behind wing until all 4 engines running then disconnet cable and walk under fuselage to take nose wheel chocks away (all without ear defenders).

Ah! That was the manoeuvre I was trying to remember. Scary stuff.

[TCAS FAN]

Obviously a great aircraft, even the French bought them! Air France and Air Inter.

Anyone know the whereabouts of Pete Russell, ex TMAC CL 44 FO then BAF Viscount skipper.

[Krystal n chips]

Spot on Midland 331, it was down to how long the power cable was as to whether the ground crew put the GPU to the front and had a shorter heave on the cable to gather it in and make sure you're clear of the props before leaving the safety of under the fuselage, or put it behind the wing, side on so that the propwash didn't blow the GPU over, and the ground crew were bathed in the hot exhaust fumes as the packed the heavy cable onto the GPU and drove clear.

The only aircraft I saw that had a worse position for the GPU lead was the Swearingen Metroliner which had the socket on the starboard engine nacelle midway between the props and the wing leading edge!! None of the engineers enjoyed this.

Apologies for the slight digression here.

With regard to the ground power socket, from my one and only experience with a Devon that arrived unexpectedly at Valley one weekend, we had to plug the infamous trolley acc into a socket on the right hand side, under the cockpit....... and decidedly adjacent to the prop.

J/T Chips at the time was somewhat new and was thus "volunteered " for this task on departure despite offering his " thoughtful sentiments" as to why he wasn't overly enthused at the prospect.

The other memorable aspect was that the elderly driver underwent a personality and accent change overnight !.....Sat, arrived with a broad Yorkshire accent and all smiles and happy conversation, Sunday, Home Counties accent and demanding pompous demeanour.

Despite growing up near MAN and seeing / hearing the Viscount as a fact of life, plus the aftermath of the Shadow Moss Lane tragedy, ironically I never got to fly in or maintain them.

[happybiker]

I worked at Field Aircraft Services (FAS) EMA from 1973 and at that time they were involved in bringing the Viscount 814 series ex Lufthansa aircraft onto the UK register. FAS held CAA design approval and their design office produced numerous modifications for the BMA Viscount fleet.

FAS were also involved in re sparring a number of Viscounts and during such work the staff was much increased by the use of contractors. I recall one occasion when a hapless contractor fell from the wing of a Viscount in the hangar and broke his leg. The hangar manager was summoned to assess the situation and his instructions were, first to clock the unfortunate guy out and then to summon an ambulance to get him fixed up. Those were the days!

[WHBM]

Field Aircraft Services (FAS) EMA from 1973 and at that time they were involved in bringing the Viscount 814 series ex Lufthansa aircraft onto the UK register. FAS held CAA design approval and their design office produced numerous modifications for the BMA Viscount fleet.
At the same time in 1971-2 as the Lufthansa disposal, where BMA took a couple, Mike Bishop, BMA's head, apparently went to South Africa, where the SAA fleet of 7 were also up for sale, expecting to buy the best one. He had a bank draft in his pocket for as much as he was prepared to pay for it. Turned out that he was the only bidder and he picked up all 7, plus the SAA spares inventory - and apparently still had a bit left over for a couple of beers afterwards. Must have been well looked after, they lasted a lot longer in the BMA fleet than the ex-Lufthansa ones; they had possibly never been de-iced before.

Article here

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1975/1975%20-%201318.PDF

[Sleeve Wing]

This a truly magic thread as it brings back all the happy memories of operating my first airline aircraft.

After a short service military career, I was working as an Instructor at one of the airline training schools. It didn’t take long to realise that my studes were taking up jobs that were paying a good bit more than I was earning !

After a bit of negotiation, I managed to avoid having to start on a Herald or an F27 and was put on a Viscount. As it carried more passengers, it paid better than the others !

I ended up with a few thousand hours on the aeroplane and it was the best training I could ever have had for my future career. My first command on it came after a mere four years.

In my opinion, the Viscount was one of the most reliable, easy to operate aeroplanes one could have chosen. There was stacks of power even at MTOW. If it was hot, just preselect the water meth.
The cockpit was indeed a bit cramped, dark and an ergonomic nightmare of analogue instruments. For night flying these were illuminated by red floods, not the backlit convenience of even an Apache or a Twin Comm.
However I still regard this as character-building stuff though ; not the fancy glass expectations of the current bunch of computer whizz-kids ! Nah, I don’t really mean that. Just jealous that that was all coming in as I approached retirement !

Another perspective was the attitude that, if conditions were getting a bit tedious, then you were expected to hand-fly the aeroplane; much smoother than using the auto pilot and indeed more responsive in the event of a bilious crosswind on a wet night into JER.
Hand flown approaches were also 'de rigeur' for places like IOM on a wet winter’s night in a SW gale onto 21, which was a bit short. Even then we would be stopped by the intersection. Outboard power was needed to turn onto the taxiway and then getting to the lee side of the piers was difficult ; this was a necessity in that you weren’t allowed to open the pax doors if the wind was in excess of 40 knots.
Oh, and I’ve just remembered from those wet nights how you could tell who was the Captain on a VC8 !
The two windscreen wiper motors were hydraulic and used to leak right onto your legs ! - the Captain’s right trouser leg and the FO’s left leg !

Yep, I think I learned a bit about flying from that old girl.

[dixi188]

The Smiths SEP 2, glass domed brain, = Autopilot.

[Midland 331]

I worked at Field Aircraft Services (FAS) EMA from 1973 and at that time they were involved in bringing the Viscount 814 series ex Lufthansa aircraft onto the UK register. FAS held CAA design approval and their design office produced numerous modifications for the BMA Viscount fleet.

FAS were also involved in re sparring a number of Viscounts and during such work the staff was much increased by the use of contractors. I recall one occasion when a hapless contractor fell from the wing of a Viscount in the hangar and broke his leg. The hangar manager was summoned to assess the situation and his instructions were, first to clock the unfortunate guy out and then to summon an ambulance to get him fixed up. Those were the days!

Were the main spar(s) a fatigue weak spot on the Viscount? I seem to recall re-sparing was common.

(and did you own a Triumph 500 circa 1979? Fields' place was close to my dad's BMA MT workshop, and I recall a very tidy one passing daily)

[DaveReidUK]

The Smiths SEP 2

Or, to give it its full name: the Smiths Electric Pilot.

[Flightwatch]

I had the pleasure of flying the Viscount for around 3k hours as a 21 to 25 year old co-pilot. As previously mentioned the cockpit (black hole of Calcutta) was an ergonomic nightmare! Initially we had 4 different marks of 700, most of which were the 700D from the US market. The only thing in the same place were the throttles and HP cocks. Then we hired an early 702 with the slitty DV windows and no Collins FD101 flight director and on one memorable occasion I was let loose on an ex Aer Lingus 707 after a briefing from the base Captain, flying 4 sectors with him and the zero reader I never did understand. Then a couple of years later we got half a dozen 806x’s from BEA. These were a massive step backwards. They had the same Dart 510 engines as the 700s but of course were heavier so the performance was worse. They had no heated windscreens relying on drip fed de-icer to keep the windscreens clear and one had to select the engine de-icers from fast to slow at an ioat of -10C the 700s had been delivered with Janitrol cabin heaters and Freon air conditioners which the CAA wouldn’t wear and they had to be deactivated. Likewise a couple of them had auxiliary slipper tanks which weren’t allowed. Of course the 800s had the Smiths flight system which having been ordered by BEA were subsequently put it in the Vanguard and the Comet 4B for commonality.

Someone asked about the range, the longest sector I remember doing completing was NCL - PSA which must have been close to 4 hours, for reasons previously mentioned this was on a 700. It was however a brilliant aircraft to fly and operate and I still remember it with affection.

[Stan Woolley]

My very first flight was on a Viscount from either Teesside or Newcastle to Heathrow in 1968, then we got a taxi to Gatwick to catch a BUA VC10 to start a new life in Zambia. I must confess that I’m not sure the Viscount made a big impression on me, but the VC10 certainly did. It fired a strong drive to become a pilot.

Maybe someone could shed some light on which airline the Viscount would have belonged to, possibly BMA which I’m guessing flew from both Newcastle and Teesside?

[treadigraph]

Probably Northeast Airlines...?

Pic here (https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/operator/Northeast%20Airlines%20xBOxNSxBCx) on Air Britain's site.

[Mooncrest]

The Northeast Viscounts carried off that yellow livery beautifully, especially with the sun shining on them.

Is BKS/Northeast your heritage, Flightwatch ?

[happybiker]

Were the main spar(s) a fatigue weak spot on the Viscount? I seem to recall re-sparing was common.

(and did you own a Triumph 500 circa 1979? Fields' place was close to my dad's BMA MT workshop, and I recall a very tidy one passing daily)
Midland 331.

The wing spars on the Viscount were not a fatigue weak point but were designed under the "safe life" criteria which means they were subject to a service life limit in flight cycles before they had to be removed and replaced. Vickers had developed a cost effective technical solution to allow the spars to be replaced which was taken up by a number of operators.

I recall that another ageing aircraft issue on the Viscount was with the Pren wiring. The rubber insulation on the wires would age harden and when a loom was disturbed the insulation would crack resulting in some major rewiring.

I had left FAS in 1978 for pastures new so no it was not me riding the Triumph 500. I do now venture out on a Hinckley Triumph Thunderbird in the warmer weather!

[Soddit]

When I joined Sleeve Wing and the merry band I was slightly mystified by the need to take the Pneumatics General CAA exam...all was explained by Pete Hill. And a remarkable explanation it was. IF you happened to have a total electrical failure there was a big red guarded button on the OHP. What it did was to activate a pneumatic ram which forced the main cb closed and prevented it from opening......short circuit or not! Anyone remember the starting technique of pulling CB133A and turning all the air relights on? I was threatened by the late Norman Brewitt with loss of vital organs for simply knowing of the technique. The fun we had.......

[Cremeegg]

Someone mentioned range - from my fathers log books - his longest three V800 flights were all listed at 4 hrs 25 minutes - Athens/Geneva; Naples/London and London-Gibraltar.

Great windows - remember a seemingly low level flight Inverness - Stornoway - Benbecula and then Benbecula - Glasgow - Heathrow in 1975

[Basil]

Looking through my Viscount photos I am reminded that if the GPU went in front of the wing it was usually parked in front by the nose so that the Flt Deck could see it and wouldn't start to move off stand with the GPU detached but still in the way!!

Hopefully I have attached a photo I took at LGW that shows this
Last flew HV GLA-BFS-GLA 16 Sep 1979. On duty 0820, back by 1145, take the rest of the day off :ok:
The next four days weren't quite as gentle.

[Flightwatch]

Yes, I was in BKS. Northeast and the yellow livery was after I left in mid 1970. BKS stopped serving MME in 66 or 67 and it was a 748 route to LHR so the Viscount ride in 68 must have been BMA.

[Mooncrest]

Yes, I was in BKS. Northeast and the yellow livery was after I left in mid 1970. BKS stopped serving MME in 66 or 67 and it was a 748 route to LHR so the Viscount ride in 68 must have been BMA.

I thought as much. I have clear memories of Northeast at LBA although I was minus 2 months at their inception and barely 5 years when the name disappeared. For a spell in 1976 we had ex-BEA V802s operating, complete with newly-added BA titles and the red and white tailfin logo. I guess the Northeast V806s were largely away at the paint shop at the time.

Is it true that the 802 and 806 aircraft were fitted with the same variant of Dart engine ? I may have read on this site that the Argosy swapped engines with the 806 some time in the 1960s.

[Stan Woolley]

Yes, I was in BKS. Northeast and the yellow livery was after I left in mid 1970. BKS stopped serving MME in 66 or 67 and it was a 748 route to LHR so the Viscount ride in 68 must have been BMA.

Thanks Flightwatch.:ok:

[bafanguy]

In the salad days of my career, I had the pleasure of flying with an ex-Cubana captain whose career extended through the Britannia…to include the Viscount. A true old world gentleman. His stories were pure gold.

What I remember of his comments on flying the Viscount is that making a bad landing was difficult. Is that the recollection of those of you who also flew the airplane ?

[Mooncrest]

Two bad landings were made by BMA Viscounts at LBA in the space of one year. Somebody obviously knew the secret !

[Flightwatch]

Yes, the 806 and the 802 both had the mk 510 dart as did the 700Ds. The 806s were the last batch ordered by BEA and came with more powerful engines (mk 525s?). Then, as you say, along came the Argosy which needed all the help it could get so BEA whipped out the 806 engines and substituted the mk 510 which were obviously more readily available and probably used less fuel. The aircraft were then officially known as type 806x.

It was the 806 which usually operated the services to KWI, BAH and DOH which I guess needed all the power they could get in the summer.

[Mooncrest]

I thought so, Flightwatch. Thanks for confirming.

[briani]

I was fortunate to be based at Heathrow Central Area, with BEA 'flight engineering' looking after preflight and turnround defects. Also spent some time with 'project and developement' which gave me the opportunity for test flights. A remarkable aircraft - all of our fleet had Decca Navigator fitted which was a major navaid at the time. I was due to fly on a night freighter to Copenhagen, but missed out due to my ancient car breaking down on route to Heathrow. The Viscount (800 series) suffered complete engine failure on the approach and the crew managed to land in a field without injury, but I think the a/c was a 'write off'. The capt. was a keen member of the Silver Wing gliding club which probably helped!.

[DH106]

Yes, the 806 and the 802 both had the mk 510 dart as did the 700Ds. The 806s were the last batch ordered by BEA and came with more powerful engines (mk 525s?). Then, as you say, along came the Argosy which needed all the help it could get so BEA whipped out the 806 engines and substituted the mk 510 which were obviously more readily available and probably used less fuel. The aircraft were then officially known as type 806x.

It was the 806 which usually operated the services to KWI, BAH and DOH which I guess needed all the power they could get in the summer.

The 806 originally had the Dart 520. The 525 was a more powerful yet version destined for the 810 and other aircraft. I hear that most (but not all !) of the 806 fleet had their engines 'robbed' for the Argosies and have always been interested to try & find out which were and were not downgraded to the Dart 510.

[Stan Woolley]

The Viscount (800 series) suffered complete engine failure on the approach and the crew managed to land in a field without injury, but I think the a/c was a 'write off'. The capt. was a keen member of the Silver Wing gliding club which probably helped!.

Lucky escape by you.

Does “suffered complete engine failure on the approach...” mean they ran out of fuel? :ooh:

[DaveReidUK]

Does “suffered complete engine failure on the approach...” mean they ran out of fuel?

No, the engines flamed out due to a malfunctioning de-icing system leading to ingestion of large chunks of ice.

[DaveReidUK]

I hear that most (but not all !) of the 806 fleet had their engines 'robbed' for the Argosies and have always been interested to try & find out which were and were not downgraded to the Dart 510.

Of the 21 V806s built, G-INFO has engine data for 18, all of which show the Dart 510/510F/510G.

[Jn14:6]

briani,

G-AOHP, 17/11/1957.

[Flightwatch]

I did hear that the 2 aircraft which were leased to Cyprus Airways kept their 520 engines whilst they were there at least. G-AOYJ/K? They lived in Nicosia and only returned to Heathrow for major maintenance, they were crewed by BEA pilots on a few weeks rotation with CY cabin crew. Otherwise the whole lot had their engines nicked.

[pulse1]

My first flight in an airliner was in a Viscount, from BEA Heathrow to Dusseldorf. I enjoyed several after that and the most memorable was a night landing at Munich when the touch down was so smooth I never felt it.

My last experience of a Viscount was not quite so pleasant. I was invited to have a look inside one at Bournemouth one hot Summer evening. At the time there was a dock strike and this aircraft had just been used to ferry meat out to Jersey. In the heat it smelled rather like a slaughter house. When I got off, they put all the seats back in ready for the next load of happy tourists, at least some of whom were probably looking forward to their first taste of romantic air travel.

[DaveReidUK]

I did hear that the 2 aircraft which were leased to Cyprus Airways kept their 520 engines whilst they were there at least. G-AOYJ/K? They lived in Nicosia and only returned to Heathrow for major maintenance, they were crewed by BEA pilots on a few weeks rotation with CY cabin crew. Otherwise the whole lot had their engines nicked.

Yes, both of those flew for Cyprus AW for 4-5 years before returning to BEA.

G-INFO has no engine details for YK and shows Dart 510G for YJ, but it's quite possible they had 520s during their spell in Cyprus.

[briani]

Thanks Jn4|6 - I remembered that it was HP and that there was no lack of fuel. The only casualties were chickens - part of the cargo. There was a story that the crew had to walk to a farmhoiuse and 'phone ATC to let them know that they had landed!.

[briani]

I had one flight on EgyptAir (or was it Misrair?) from Tripoli to Benghazi on a 700 series. The crew had difficulty starting engines and after several attempts on each engine, decided that the problem was caused by the GPU. They then tried to start with all internal electrics on including lights and air using the a/c batteries only. I asked the Egyptian stewardess to pass a message to the crew, advising turning off all non essentail electrics. The stewardess returned and asked if I would go to the cockpit. I declined the invitation!. Eventually,, having managed to start engines, they taxied at high speed in an attempt to catch up on schedule. My confidence was further reduced when the captain walked through the cabin eating a large filled bread roll!. My employers banned travel with the airline soon after my experience.

[Four Wings]

In memory land, my first Viscount flight was KLM to Schipol in 1959, although actually we had a weather diversion to Frankfurt and were bussed to Schipol, where the bus drove airside to drop us off at the gate so we could enter the country as air pax!
Then I flew from Ghana a number of times on Ghana Airways 700s, including once with my good friend Peter Dorkenoo in the left hand seat. But the most memorable time was landing at Bathurst (now Banjul) with a sudden almighty din from the gear. It was only when I walked down the steps I realised the runway was still wartime PSP.
Later I flew on Aden Airways 700s. One early memorable time I was on the jump seat on a flight Aden-Jeddah (not staff, just the advantage in those days of working for Shell Marketing). I think the PIC was Jimmy Gross, great guy but a bit of a show off. He claimed he got to Jeddah by flying up the Red Sea for some exact period ( about two hours I think) then turning due East and looking out for the airport's radio mast. The FO and I played his game of looking for the mast as he gently side slipped one side to the other ("mustn't frighten the pax") until one of us spotted it.
Aden Airways was famous for its attractive stewardesses on the 700s, notorious for the number of times they were to be found in the right hand seat, especially Chrissie Chambers who was definitely not tall and couldn't reach the pedals easily so resulted in some decidedly disturbing yawing of the aircraft.

[lotus1]

Only flight I had on the viscount was a Euroair viscount charter to Holland for the Dutch grandprix from gatwick fantastic flight especially over the North Sea actually you could see the flames on the gas and oil rigs fantastic Windows

[Smeagol]

Flew on Air Rhodesia Viscounts several times in the 1970's.

First time was in about 1976 when travelling from Cape Town to Victoria Falls when travelling to Wankie (Hwange) for a job interview at the colliery. It was certainly an experience as it was the middle of the war and on boarding the aircraft most of the other passengers checked in their firearms, hand guns, rifles, automatic rifles, all handed to the cabin crew to be retrieved after landing.

Repeated the trip a couple of years later when leaving SA, I took the wife and kids to Vic Falls. This was memorable for landing at Kariba and Wankie before Vic Falls. The climb out from Kariba was notable for its lack of altitude and the commentary on the visible wildlife by the (presumably) non-flying pilot. This low level was maintained until well away from land over lake Kariba. I believe this low flying was to minimise the possibility of being hit by surface-to-air missiles from Zambia. The aircraft we flew on was VP-WAS which was brought down by a missile about 6 months later.

As mentioned by others it was a comfortable aircraft to fly in with great views from the relatively large windows.

[Mooncrest]

Air Rhodesia took on G-BCZR and G-BGLC, the two 810s previously operated by/for Dan-Air. As well as this pair, 800s G-CSZB and G-BBDK also flew in Dan-Air colours. However, I don't know for certain if any of these aircraft were actually owned by Dan or simply leased or chartered. I know Dan damp-leased a few 700s from Alidair in the 1970s.

[Helen49]

A fascinating thread Mooncrest, particularly interesting to people 'of a certain age'!

Notwithstanding the popularity of the Decca system in those days, I am interested to know why BEA opted to have it fitted......what was the particular advantage which it provided?

H49

[WHBM]

Air Rhodesia took on G-BCZR and G-BGLC, the two 810s previously operated by/for Dan-Air. As well as this pair, 800s G-CSZB and G-BBDK also flew in Dan-Air colours. However, I don't know for certain if any of these aircraft were actually owned by Dan or simply leased or chartered. I know Dan damp-leased a few 700s from Alidair in the 1970s.
G-BCZR, later Z-WGC, still exists as a roadside restaurant at Chegutu in Zimbabwe. Here she is on Google Earth.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@-18.1378165,30.1415772,212m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@-18.1376877,30.1416903,3a,75y,38.09h,91.01t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipMGs5l0LWkGuc9RKjVmxa2jqCLYRfPiOw-x2llh!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp% 2FAF1QipMGs5l0LWkGuc9RKjVmxa2jqCLYRfPiOw-x2llh%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya96.10395-ro-0-fo100!7i5376!8i2688!5m1!1e1


The ownership during the Dan-Air lease was Air Bridge Carriers (ABC). Although in full Dan-Air colours, like other Viscounts over time, I believe Dan-Air always leased them and didn't have them on their AOC.

[Mooncrest]

Always glad to oblige, H49 !

Thankyou WHBM. Curious that Dan-Air never bought any of their own Viscounts but were clearly happy to have the aircraft bearing their name. I remember being quite chuffed seeing one of 'their' 800s at LBA for the first time back in about 1979-80. It was on a Jersey run, hitherto the preserve of the HS748.

[WHBM]

I think Dan-Air used Viscounts just for summer capacity on their oddball collection of scheduled routes, a number of which were notably seasonal, and others would drop back to their own 748s for the winter. Although some of the leases were multi-year, as this one, I guess they were leased by the hour and got little or no use in the winter; they don't appear in winter schedules.

[briani]

Helen49 - The Decca installation (when working) was a very good navaid. When the flight log was fitted, the a/c position was shown on the moving map, which was popular especially when the R/O's were no longer carried. The weight and size of the installation must have been a concern, The modern GPS systems do a similar job for a fraction of the size and weight.

[Helen49]

Many thanks Briani, I did appreciate how it operated but just wondered what advantage it offered over and above the primary navaids, particularly as it occupied such a large central space on the instrument panel.

[Mooncrest]

V806, G-APEX. Did APEX air fares exist when this aircraft came along or was the registration just a coincidence ?

[surely not]

It was just a run of the mill in sequence registration Mooncrest. The fad for out of sequence registrations didn't really get underway until the late 1970's early 1980's

[Mooncrest]

That's what I thought, surely not. Now I think about it, APEX had a sistership in the same sequence, along with several Vanguards.

[WHBM]

UK registrations were very much issued "next one alphabetically in sequence", from G-AAAA in the 1920s, they only moved on from G-AZZZ to G-BAAA (one of the Court Line Tristars) by 1973, so there was loads of capacity. Nowadays only a minority still take the next one, you can have what you want - and pay for it. If you made a major purchase of new aircraft, normally just BOAC/BEA, you could get a block of 26 ending A-Z, but again it would be the very next such block in sequence. The Vanguards were thus all G-APEA and upwards.

Just a couple were skipped. In best civil service tradition, the one which alphabetically followed G-ARSD is blandly described as "Registration Not Allocated".

[Liffy 1M]

If you made a major purchase of new aircraft, normally just BOAC/BEA, you could get a block of 26 ending A-Z, but again it would be the very next such block in sequence. The Vanguards were thus all G-APEA and upwards.

Just a couple were skipped. In best civil service tradition, the one which alphabetically followed G-ARSD is blandly described as "Registration Not Allocated".

Since the letter "Q" is not used, any A-Z block would only cover 25 aircraft.

Registrations ending in "VD" were also not issued for many years but policy seems to have been relaxed some time in the late 1990s.

[dixi188]

I believe the first out of sequence registration was G-BSST for the British prototype Concorde. The French had F-WTSS.
After that anything goes.
I particularly liked my old bosses Citation with "G-UESS who" on the nacelles. Tragic accident though.

[Herod]

Registrations ending in "VD" were also not issued for many years

Back in the seventies, my ex-wife had a part-time job as a Beauty Counselor for a make-up company called Vanda. A sort of competitor for the Avon Lady. All was well, until they introduced a range called "V deVanda". It didn't do so well (try saying it), and I believe the company didn't last too long afterwards.

[rog747]

I believe the first out of sequence registration was G-BSST for the British prototype Concorde. The French had F-WTSS.
After that anything goes.
I particularly liked my old bosses Citation with "G-UESS who" on the nacelles.

G-BMAA and so on to G-BMAZ 707
G-BMAT used on a Viscount

G-OBMA and so on
G-MIDA and so on
G-WWBD
G-WWBM

G-BMON and G-MONB and so on for good old monarch

G-BCAL 707
Cale DC-10's
G-MULL G-DCIO
G-LYON G-GOKT
G-GCAL

G-GFAL for Freddie
G-GSKY Skytrain

G-IOII Tristar (not one of the 2 OU ones though re-regd from AA or AB)

G-RAES BA 777 nice one

G-BUSB and so on for BCAL's order for 10 A320's (NTU order went to BA)

[India Four Two]

Just a couple were skipped. In best civil service tradition, the one which alphabetically followed G-ARSD is blandly described as "Registration Not Allocated".

I seem to remember that some time later, G-ASEX was also Not Allocated.

[Doctor Cruces]

Worked for BMA at MME when we did four LHR rotations a day with the Viscount. Lovely aircraft had several jolleys to LHR, OST and once did a day long "W" MME-JER-CDD-JER-MME. Seemed to fly a lot with Joe Sharps and Jim Smee.

A good book for a really in depth development story is The Handbook of the Vickers Viscount. Can't remember the author but it's a very good read.

[Level bust]

A good book for a really in depth development story is The Handbook of the Vickers Viscount. Can't remember the author but it's a very good read.

Written by P St John Turner, and you are right an interesting read, my copy was published in 1968.

[Midland 331]

Worked for BMA at MME when we did four LHR rotations a day with the Viscount. Lovely aircraft had several jolleys to LHR, OST and once did a day long "W" MME-JER-CDD-JER-MME. Seemed to fly a lot with Joe Sharps and Jim Smee.

A good book for a really in depth development story is The Handbook of the Vickers Viscount. Can't remember the author but it's a very good read.

Jim Snee still meets up quarterly with the "BMA Old Timers" at my late uncle's former pub near Castle Don. He probably has plenty of Viscount tales.

Joe Sharps did LHR-MME in 38 minutes in a Viscount. I understand that he was rather sporting in the London TMA, though.

[Bergerie1]

Haven't seen Jim Snee for ages. I hope he is doing well. If so, can you ask him to send me a PM. I would very much like to get in touch again.

[Vanguardsman]

vctenderness (p 2) remembers kippers in the flightdeck out of Aberdeen.but perhaps they were Smokies that we would get on the way to the airport for an early service to London from a warehouse at the docks. They came in boxes weighing a stone.
I had my first Command in the early '70s on Viscounts at Glasgow and only a week or two after being cleared of training found myself flying a visual circuit for r/w 18 at Benbecula at 450 feet and clearly remember seeing the engines nodding gently in the turbulence. One turned finals when the beach was crossed and followed it until out of the murk appeared the runway.
I found there was a clearly defined point after the flare with 85% flap when the aircraft started to sink. If 100% flap was selected at that point the ground effect gave a gentle touchdown every time.

[Basil]

vctenderness (p 2) remembers kippers in the flightdeck out of Aberdeen.but perhaps they were Smokies that we would get on the way to the airport for an early service to London from a warehouse at the docks. They came in boxes weighing a stone.
I had my first Command in the early '70s on Viscounts at Glasgow and only a week or two after being cleared of training found myself flying a visual circuit for r/w 18 at Benbecula at 450 feet and clearly remember seeing the engines nodding gently in the turbulence. One turned finals when the beach was crossed and followed it until out of the murk appeared the runway.
I found there was a clearly defined point after the flare with 85% flap when the aircraft started to sink. If 100% flap was selected at that point the ground effect gave a gentle touchdown every time.
I was probably your FO at some time.
Yes the old VC8 was good for 'imaginative' approaches :ok: