PDA

View Full Version : Justice and punishment around the world


sitigeltfel
16th Feb 2018, 17:11
Having read this news item, I am amazed at the leniency of the sentence. He beats up two cops outside Buckingham Palace and gets a paltry fine and a suspended jail term!

Buckingham Palace armed police attacked by US tourist - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43089636)

I would imagine a good shoeing might have been administered had it not been in such a prominent location. Can PPRuNers from other parts of the world suggest what sentence he could expect to receive in your home country?

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Feb 2018, 18:13
Well, in plenty of places the police would have shot him. For being a drunken idiot. We don't do that (well, not very often).

Keeping someone in prison for a long time is exceedingly expensive, of course, so why not let him return to the USA to he a charge on their taxpayer, not ours, next time he gets drunk?

charliegolf
16th Feb 2018, 18:15
Out of interest, will he be barred from visiting again? We would be if we did the same. (Or dead.)

CG

obgraham
16th Feb 2018, 20:17
Doesn't say a lot for the "armed police", does it?

Perhaps the MPS was too embarrassed.

Tashengurt
16th Feb 2018, 20:31
Surprised he didn't get himself Tasered.
Although at point blank range it probably wouldn't achieve enough spread for neuro muscular incapacitation it would still smart.

vapilot2004
16th Feb 2018, 21:38
Sentence in the US, particularly if the perpetrator was non-white, would have been death, adjudicated and administered on scene by police.

Shack37
16th Feb 2018, 23:04
From the linked news ítem:

When PC Leckie tried to intervene, shouting "Armed police. Stand still" and pointing his weapon at the American, Robinson knocked him to the ground. (My bold)


Just as well he didn´t grab a weapon while both officers were on the ground.
Is there sometihg lacking in our armed pólice training system?

jack11111
17th Feb 2018, 00:32
In Chicago, back in the 60's, through 80's, critical condition in hospital for resisting arrest.

I believe in more recent times there is less of that.

Tankertrashnav
17th Feb 2018, 10:18
American police are frequently described as trigger-happy. These blokes seem to have been the opposite. Trigger shy? Really cant see why this bloke wasn't tasered. Retraining for them at the minimum I would say.

I also understand there is a list of foreign nationals who are excluded from entering the country. This bloke's name should go on it and he can plan his next vacation in Mexico, although I would counsel him not to try the same trick there if he ever wants to get home.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Feb 2018, 10:36
Trigger shy? Really cant see why this bloke wasn't tasered. Retraining for them at the minimum I would say.
Outcome: bruising and a tendon injury (which I'm not making light of, I've got one myself and I'm looking forward to it stopping hurting in six months or so). Sounds like a result to me, compared to the risks of using a taser (the victim doesn't usually die, but the risk is there).

charliegolf
17th Feb 2018, 12:07
I think the restraint put the officers at risk (as someone said, what if he had wrested a gun from one of them...). I think the comeback worry in all officers' minds needs to be addressed via the ROE. We all know that if the chump got a H&K butt in the face, all hell would have broken loose. That said, maybe the first copper (or bystanders) was in line for a bullet if Leckie missed?

To be clear, I wouldn't bat an eyelid had he shot the knobhead. I am not criticising.

CG

Kulverstukas
17th Feb 2018, 13:39
Here you can get from small fine up to 13 years of GULAG.

In the center of the capital on Red Square on February 14, an unidentified man attacked a police officer, Interfax reported, citing the Interior Ministry's press service.

Around 13:00 the policeman noticed an inadequate man near the St. Basil's Cathedral, who was holding a baseball bat in his hands. When the law enforcement officer approached him to check the documents, he led himself aggressively and hit the policeman in the legs.

Law enforcers detained the violator. The outfit of the medical and psychiatric service was called to the scene. The injured policeman was forced to go to the emergency clinic for help.


A resident of the Perm region was sentenced to 13.5 years of imprisonment with serving a sentence in a strict regime colony for assaulting a policeman. This is reported on the website of the regional prosecutor's office.

The 27-year-old was found guilty of committing a crime under part 1 of Article 318 of the Criminal Code ("Use of violence not dangerous to life or health , against a representative of the government in connection with the performance of his official duties").

The man was detained in July at the bus station in Perm. He was drunk. When drafting the administrative protocol, the young man cursed the mate, behaved aggressively and struck the policeman with his fist in the face .

Heathrow Harry
17th Feb 2018, 14:03
Traditionally Britsh Police stations all seemed to have very long flights of steep stairs.......

Later anecdotal evidence suggests that more importance is now put on "getting a conviction" which improves your chance of promotion etc rather than retributive violence. This may well involve some rough stuff but nothing that leaves a mark or any forensic evidence

cargosales
17th Feb 2018, 16:40
Traditionally Britsh Police stations all seemed to have very long flights of steep stairs.......

Later anecdotal evidence suggests that more importance is now put on "getting a conviction" which improves your chance of promotion etc rather than retributive violence. This may well involve some rough stuff but nothing that leaves a mark or any forensic evidence

These days the crim would probably be able to sue Plod to hell and beyond for not having an appropriate Health & Safety Police sign 'warning: wet floor' clearly visible :ugh: before he slipped on the damp surface and fell down the stairs :E

krismiler
18th Feb 2018, 05:25
The PACE or police and criminal evidence act really upset things. Having solicitors present and interviews recorded must have made it difficult to threaten someone into a confession or be fitted up on a more serious charge.

West Coast
18th Feb 2018, 06:15
Sentence in the US, particularly if the perpetrator was non-white, would have been death, adjudicated and administered on scene by police.

You sure walk a fine line, FBI good as they’re investigating collusion, local cops bad.

Hokulea
18th Feb 2018, 08:09
Well, living in the state where this numbnut came from, I'm fairly confident if he'd done the same thing here his punishment would be the same or even less than the UK handed out to him. Even if he had been jailed here, he'd have probably been released by accident.

Bank robbery suspect accidentally released - West Hawaii Today (http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/2018/02/09/hawaii-news/bank-robbery-suspect-accidentally-released/)

"This is the fourth time since 2013 that a high-profile defendant was released from custody either by mistake or because of paperwork miscommunication between the courthouse and HCCC."

vapilot2004
18th Feb 2018, 09:05
You sure walk a fine line, FBI good as they’re investigating collusion, local cops bad.



With over 2,000 killings by police of civilians, far too many of those killed unarmed in just the past 5 years, municipal and county police seem to be a bit trigger happy, particularly if you happen to have brown skin. This is a fact. If you are black, your chances of being killed by a local police officer is 3 times higher than if you are white. Hispanic, more than double. FBI has no such questionable record.

krismiler
18th Feb 2018, 10:19
True but many of the police killings are justifiable homicide, if you pull a weapon out an armed officer is liable to shoot you rather than risk his own life.

Black on black murder rates seem to be ignored as well, only a white police officer killing a black suspect would make the headlines and result in three days of rioting. The drive by shooting or drug deal gone wrong killings don’t attract the same level of publicity.

vapilot2004
18th Feb 2018, 10:25
True but many of the police killings are justifiable homicide, if you pull a weapon out an armed officer is liable to shoot you rather than risk his own life.


This is a reasonable assumption and SOP, and I do not argue with the fact that cops have a tough job, however, the point remains, far too many unarmed (or minimally armed) Americans have been killed at the hands of local police in the past decade, and of that group, blacks and hispanics are dramatically overrepresented.

Regular police shootings of civilians is a bit of an American oddity in the comparison among her peers of civilized, progressive Western nations such as members of the EU, Australia, or the UK. This is established fact.

Hokulea
18th Feb 2018, 10:41
I was reading the last few posts...what was the question again?

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 10:57
Regular police shootings of civilians is a bit of an American oddity in the comparison among her peers of civilized, progressive Western nations such as members of the EU, Australia, or the UK. This is established fact.
What's not established however is the extent of this fact. For some odd reason there is no nationwide set of statistics for civilians killed by police in the USA. Perhaps they don't want us to know what the numbers are?

Sallyann1234
18th Feb 2018, 11:23
This is how they treat thieves in Brazil.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=050_1518836834

vapilot2004
18th Feb 2018, 12:02
What's not established however is the extent of this fact. For some odd reason there is no nationwide set of statistics for civilians killed by police in the USA. Perhaps they don't want us to know what the numbers are?

Perhaps. What is released and studied at the Federal level unfortunately depends on the political persuasion of the current administration, at least over the past few decades.

State's rights come into play here. The government tried to collect data, but due to a lack of reporting standards across the states, and an antipathy towards transparency in some troubling jurisdictions, and having no constitutional mandate, they stopped.

Much of the current data finds sources in official state data for those that are fully transparent, local public files, government FBI and DOJ statistics and local police logs and are compiled by social and political scientists at university, and the media, most notable are the Guardian and the Washington Post.

Data collection difficulties aside, the overall view requires no fine tuning, nor discerning eyesight to suss out any subtleties; there is no doubt American police kill far more of their own civilians than their EU, UK, AUS counterparts.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 12:48
there is no doubt American police kill far more of their own civilians than their EU, UK, AUS counterparts.
What was that about the first duty of government being to keep its citizens safe?

TWT
18th Feb 2018, 12:59
This is how they treat thieves on BrazilThis motorcycle thief in Brazil gets blown away by a cop. Shoot first, ask questions later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzN_tcK0NzI

Nemrytter
18th Feb 2018, 13:44
This motorcycle thief in Brazil gets blown away by a cop. Shoot first, ask questions later.This is the type of thing that'll get a certain type of Jet Blaster masturbating. Who needs justice when you can have a penis extension?

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 13:50
This is the type of thing that'll get a certain type of Jet Blaster masturbating. Who needs justice when you can have a penis extension?
On the one hand, where I live stealing a motorcycle isn't a capital crime. On the other hand, the perp was carrying a gun, so the outcome was fair enough.

Nemrytter
18th Feb 2018, 13:54
That'll cause some interesting complications in the various medieval countries / states where open carry is legal.:ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 14:14
That'll cause some interesting complications in the various medieval countries / states where open carry is legal.:ok:
Well, my view is that there's no good reason for a civilian to have a gun at all, let alone on the streets, so if they've got one it can only be for a bad reason, so the risk they pose can be reduced by the police shooting first and answering questions afterwards.

(Usual exceptions for farmers controlling vermin on their own land away from public footpaths, etc. And I'm not in favour of the police shooting someone who is carrying a chair leg which some idiot, including a police idiot, has mistaken for a gun. And I'm not in favour of police killing black children who are "armed" with toy guns. So like most things in real life an adequately detailed policy would not be short enough to fit in a tweet.)

West Coast
18th Feb 2018, 14:23
Back up your claim VAPA that the subject would have met the business end of a weapon. Your statement was pure drama.

vapilot2004
19th Feb 2018, 08:40
What was that about the first duty of government being to keep its citizens safe?

Yes same folks that approved GMOs, DDT, Tetra Ethyl Lead, and allowed 11 September to happen. We're feeling very safe right now indeed.

Back up your claim VAPA that the subject would have met the business end of a weapon. Your statement was pure drama.

No drama, by the numbers WACA:

http://i66.tinypic.com/1tocax.png

http://i63.tinypic.com/1zob7sw.png

http://i64.tinypic.com/igd89c.png

Ryan Robinson, 36, punched PC Ben Collins numerous times to the face and tried to grab his Taser.

He also knocked PC Simon Leckie to the ground when the officer tried to help.


I dunno about you, WC, but I'm pretty sure the odds that the above actions would've been met with deadly force, had these guys been American cops are at least 50/50.

That said, I know law enforcement is a lousy, often dangerous job, but what part of "protect and serve" do you suppose applies to shooting unarmed children?

krismiler
19th Feb 2018, 09:59
Difficult to compare apples with apples, some societies are more violent, poorer or heavily armed than others.

Switzerland has many firearms in private hands in the form of reserve soldiers keeping their rifles at home but being rich and law abiding there is very little gun crime.

Singapore punishes gun crime with the death penalty, has extremely strict laws on firearms, competent law enforcement and high income. Also very little gun crime.

The Philippines is poor, guns are cheap and easily available, the police corrupt and poorly paid hence gun crime is prevalent. Most businesses employed armed security and cash in transit vans resemble armoured military vehicles.

The USA is heavily armed but laws differ amongst states, and there are wealthy areas and also areas of third world poverty. A police officer making a traffic stop in daylight on Park Avenue would feel a lot safer than one making a similar stop at 2am in the hood.

Blacksheep
19th Feb 2018, 14:35
As I recall from my "Yellow Card" instructions, I believe that the "minumum force necessary" requirement is met when shooting an armed felon in the commission of a crime and one has a genuine fear of death or serious injury to oneself or a member of the public.

Shooting isn't necessarily fatal, although the training is to aim into the centre of the target to ensure a hit even though movement may cause the shot to go outside the aiming point.

...states where open carry is legal.

Note that "Open Carry" refers to openly carrying a firearm where people can see it and be aware that one is armed. It was never meant to apply to waving a pistol around in a threatening posture while violently stealing a motorcycle.

Krystal n chips
21st Feb 2018, 05:52
On the subject of disparity regarding sentencing, this charming couple :mad: seem to have been the beneficiaries of a decidedly obscene interpretation of the law.....

Dogs kept in 'horrendous' conditions in Aveley and Barking - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-43134000)

The second photograph of the poor dog should have been enough in itself to warrant a custodial sentence.....because if this shot doesn't bring tears of anger to any self-respecting human being, nothing will.

Espada III
21st Feb 2018, 06:34
A suspended sentence is ridiculous given the state those dogs were kept in, but a custodial sentence would invalidate other sentences for different crimes. The fact these women were 'outed' is probably enough to make them feel the shame they deserve.