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Davidsa
16th Feb 2018, 12:40
I believe the pros and cons of the above were discussed here several months ago.

I am being offered one (on what is claimed to be an unbeatable deal!!). I can see advantages and disadvantages.

What was the consensus of opinion of the wise folk here?

Thanks!

Blues&twos
16th Feb 2018, 12:54
The consensus was that the customer gains very little and the supplier gains quite a lot, including the future possibility of cutting off the supply remotely.
And of course ultimately they're not free - someone is paying for them...

Cpt_Pugwash
16th Feb 2018, 12:58
The consumer is paying for them. There is already a levy on all bills to cover the rollout programme.
This from Money Supermarket.

" The price of the meter is absorbed into your energy bills, at a very low rate. At present, your supplier will be adding around £6 per year to cover the roll out across the UK – hardly noticeable. But each meter will cost the public around £200 each on average."

Andy_S
16th Feb 2018, 13:03
I am being offered one (on what is claimed to be an unbeatable deal!!).

Is it a 'SMETS 1' type meter?

If it is, walk away.......

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Feb 2018, 13:12
I can see advantages and disadvantages.
From the letter I've got:

Disadvantage: having to take time off work to wait for an operative who probably won't turn up.

Advantage: nil.

Guess whether I have responded to the letter.

ELondonPax
16th Feb 2018, 13:16
Avoid. If you try to change supplier, all the 'smart' features vanish. An astonishingly ill managed programme.

yotty
16th Feb 2018, 13:34
The plan is to have a "smart grid". At times of peak consumption the powers that be will be able to "turn down" "smart" appliances to balance the load.

Andy_S
16th Feb 2018, 13:35
Avoid. If you try to change supplier, all the 'smart' features vanish.

If it's SMETS-1.........

The next generation of Smart Meters, SMETS-2 should be compatible with all suppliers.

dook
16th Feb 2018, 14:25
I have two meters - one for electricity and one for gas.

They cost nothing and came with the house when it was built.

Why should I want another?

mikemmb
16th Feb 2018, 14:33
My understanding is that the real long term aim is to have dynamic pricing. This would mean that the supplier can decide how much to charge you in real time.
Not sure what safeguards will be introduced to combat any excesses but the words "sinister" and "can of worms" come to mind.

zed3
16th Feb 2018, 15:25
mikemmb, that's always been my concern, THEY can decide when YOUR peak period is and adjust your bill accordingly. A scam to make more money.

NutLoose
16th Feb 2018, 15:36
The plan is to have a "smart grid". At times of peak consumption the powers that be will be able to "turn down" "smart" appliances to balance the load. So during say the cup final and when you get up to make a cup of tea when the adverts are on, they will turn everyones telly's off? :p

Smart grid is simply trying to fix a overloaded system brought about because individual companies deemed it "cheaper" to simply demolish viable coal powered power stations with lots of useful life left in them, rather than spend on them and convert them to gas to meet the stricter emission laws..

andytug
16th Feb 2018, 15:39
They are insecure and only benefit the supplier, not the customer.
All this "keep gas and leccy under control" is rubbish aimed at people too stupid to realise that if an appliance heats stuff it'll cost a lot, the wattage is written on all of them and one unit is one thousand watts for an hour. Rest is basic maths, no need for apps etc.
If you have a lot of spotlights probably worth changing them to LED. Use anything that heats stuff as little as possible. Simple.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Feb 2018, 15:52
My understanding is that the real long term aim is to have dynamic pricing. This would mean that the supplier can decide how much to charge you in real time.
Not sure what safeguards will be introduced to combat any excesses but the words "sinister" and "can of worms" come to mind.
The energy suppliers are paying for the energy they sell you priced by half hourly auctions. So this sounds like a de-risking exercise.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Feb 2018, 15:54
Smart grid is simply trying to fix a overloaded system brought about because individual companies deemed it "cheaper" to simply demolish viable coal powered power stations with lots of useful life left in them, rather than spend on them and convert them to gas to meet the stricter emission laws..
Or, because they're waiting for battery tech to get a bit cheaper before converting to entirely renewables and storage.

Mr Optimistic
16th Feb 2018, 16:41
Had a number of letters from Eon telling me my meter is old and needs replacing. The meter is less than 5 years old but the wording makes it defensible ie old technology. So it is written to mislead. Then had a cold call telephone call from them saying the same thing with pressure. Expressed surprise when declined and argued. They won't phone again in a hurry. I read the sales people are on a £50k earner by commission. From what I have read, the logic and cost effectiveness of this exercise is under scrutiny.

For the avoidance of doubt the answer is NO unless you don't understand the concept of energy and unit pricing.

mikemmb
16th Feb 2018, 16:45
The energy suppliers are paying for the energy they sell you priced by half hourly auctions. So this sounds like a de-risking exercise.

Mmm.............bet the Marketing guys will really have to scratch their heads to sell that as a Customer Enhancement.

But they undoubtably will.

VP959
16th Feb 2018, 20:40
The energy suppliers are paying for the energy they sell you priced by half hourly auctions. So this sounds like a de-risking exercise.

Exactly.

The suppliers at the moment have to guess the mean half-hourly wholesale rate in advance when setting tariffs.

What the suppliers want to be able to do, and the reason they are spending vast amounts of money on advertising, is to pass the wholesale price fluctuations on to the consumer with variable tariffs.

Some may think this is reasonable, but it raises some major problems. You won't be able to compare suppliers easily once they introduce dynamic pricing, as the tariff each charges will vary all the time.

Is this in the customer's interest? I honestly doubt it. It will inevitably lead to very confusing pricing structures, and confusing pricing structures tends to lead to consumers being ripped off, in my experience.

zed3
16th Feb 2018, 20:49
VP959... just as I wrote earlier, everyone on their own tariff with own peak period, which they can read from the meter. A rip off.

Flyingbadge
16th Feb 2018, 22:32
I had a call a couple of days ago and was told a smart meter will be compulsory in two years. No idea if that’s true but I told them to call me in two years.

MG23
16th Feb 2018, 23:02
Smart grid is simply trying to fix a overloaded system brought about because individual companies deemed it "cheaper" to simply demolish viable coal powered power stations with lots of useful life left in them, rather than spend on them and convert them to gas to meet the stricter emission laws..

Indeed. Companies and governments have managed to underinvest in new supply, while getting people to applaud them for it by claiming to be 'green'.

Personally, I'm going to ensure we have a generator wired into our next house, if we can't manage to go completely off the power grid.

IcePack
16th Feb 2018, 23:22
Still wondering how the 2nd generation smart meters work with PV arrays. At the moment any feed in tariff is assumed. I wonder if the new ones actually measure what you feed into the grid. Whatever as others say they are not what the sales person says they are. Their lack of knowledge & assumptions are imho verging on fraud.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Feb 2018, 23:39
I wonder if the new ones actually measure what you feed into the grid.
And of course if you buy a battery as well you can save up the day's power, or the week's power, and sell it all into the grid (or use it yourself) during the most expensive half hour.

Trossie
17th Feb 2018, 08:36
Still wondering how the 2nd generation smart meters work with PV arrays. At the moment any feed in tariff is assumed. I wonder if the new ones actually measure what you feed into the grid. Whatever as others say they are not what the sales person says they are. Their lack of knowledge & assumptions are imho verging on fraud.
For a long time I have had the opinion that the next 'PPI mis-selling' equivalent will be 'solar panel mis-selling'. Maybe I should get some put in so that I can cash in on the eventual compensation? Although, nah, looking at the ugly things that our neighbours have I could not possibly inflict that eye-sore on my other neighbours.

yotty
17th Feb 2018, 09:19
Still wondering how the 2nd generation smart meters work with PV arrays. At the moment any feed in tariff is assumed. I wonder if the new ones actually measure what you feed into the grid. Whatever as others say they are not what the sales person says they are. Their lack of knowledge & assumptions are imho verging on fraud.
Thats not strictly true IcePack. Whilst the majority of export is "deemed" quite a few of us have export meters so we know exactly how much we are sending back to the grid. Interesting question about the 2nd generation meters though.

The late XV105
17th Feb 2018, 12:01
For a long time I have had the opinion that the next 'PPI mis-selling' equivalent will be 'solar panel mis-selling'.

Not in this neck of the woods, at least.

Having got in on the full tariff, negotiated a very competitive installation cost and fitted a unit to divert surplus power (which I measure) to heat my hot water rather than burning gas, I still get my deemed export payment anyway and am on target to have paid back my outlay 2 months early (at 6 years 10 months) - whereupon my tax free ISA On The Roof kicks in.

VP959
17th Feb 2018, 12:10
I had a call a couple of days ago and was told a smart meter will be compulsory in two years. No idea if that’s true but I told them to call me in two years.

The government keep saying that smart meters will not be compulsory, but the energy suppliers are doing their best to try to convince customers otherwise.

British Gas told me that my meter was due for replacement and when could I make an appointment to have this done. I called them and asked why a relatively new meter needed replacing, as I thought they had a long life. They replied that it just did, and when would be a convenient time to do the work. I then asked if this was to fit a Smart Meter, and, very reluctantly, they agreed that it was. At that point I told them I did not want a Smart Meter, so could they please remove my details from their list. I also told them that I was now going to switch suppliers, as I was not at all happy at the subterfuge that they had tried to use.

I switched suppliers soon afterwards, and so far the new supplier hasn't mentioned anything about Smart Meters at all.

Davidsa
17th Feb 2018, 18:36
Thanks everybody!

I'll do nothing until the SMETS-2 meters are launched, and then reconsider, but with a large pinch of salt!

Blues&twos
17th Feb 2018, 18:40
Reading 'Which?' magazine today, there is a section about smart meters and the pressure being put on consumers to have them fitted. Some companies appear to be using dodgy methods, with some apparently making 'appointments' for the work before speaking to the customer. Interestingly, the magazine states that even if your energy meter does need replacing, you are not obliged to have a smart meter - you can insist on a standard model.
My electricity company wrote me an official looking letter about 12 months ago telling me to provide them with details of my existing meter including the serial number. This sounded odd - it's their meter, their staff sometimes read it, so they must know what it is. I ignored the request and have heard nothing more.
And thinking about it, their instruction assumes the ability and knowledge to find the details in the first place. Tricky if you're infirm or otherwise not able to get to your meter.

beamer
17th Feb 2018, 18:44
Complete non-starter in our village due to the reluctance of BT to offer high speed broadband ( 1.5-4.0 on a good day) allied to useless mobile phone signal coverage.

radeng
17th Feb 2018, 18:46
I haven't had the telephone call yet, just letters.....I suppose it's just a matter of time.

I did have 'renewable energy' saleswoman get very upset when I said that there was no way they could save me 40% on my electricity and gas bill. She said that they didn't lie and it was unfair of me to suggest that they did. So I asked what 40% of nothing is - and she didn't understand. So I explained that I don't have gas, and there has never been gas here in the fifty plus years since the house was built. Her response was 'but you live in Swindon!'
'No - Swindon is about 10 miles south east of here and the nearest gas supply is five miles away by road.'

Just because one has an SN postcode, it doesn't mean you live there!

andytug
17th Feb 2018, 19:52
If you can save 40% by using a smart meter then I have a bridge for sale you might be interested in....
Either that or at the moment you have your house constantly at 25C or above, leave all your doors and windows open, take constant hot baths, drink endless cups of tea, have halogen floodlights in every room and are growing cannabis in your attic.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Feb 2018, 22:09
and are growing cannabis in your attic.
Nobody who is growing cannabis in their attic actually pays for the electricity FFS! - you can't detect cannabis farms by looking at electricity bills any more.

But you can by driving around with infra-red cameras, because they rarely think to insulate the attic properly :D:ok:

Mr Optimistic
17th Feb 2018, 22:23
Oh. Off to Homebase first thing.

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Feb 2018, 22:29
Oh. Off to Homebase first thing.
There are times when one really feels the lack of a "like" button on PPRuNe.

ricardian
17th Feb 2018, 23:51
This is an interesting article (http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm) about using the frequency of the UK grid to determine how much power is required

TWT
18th Feb 2018, 00:08
In my neck of the woods, the cops use infra-red cameras mounted on helicopters to seek out 'grow houses'. Quite effective, apparently

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 09:53
This is an interesting article (http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm) about using the frequency of the UK grid to determine how much power is required
Yes. The grid lets contracts to people who can switch on generators (or switch off demand) within a very short time of the frequency dropping below the threshold. So you can get paid for having a bunch of diesel generators sitting there doing nothing for 99% of the time, provided they're ready to start up very quickly indeed when a frequency event is detected. (It's more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.)

VP959
18th Feb 2018, 10:09
In my neck of the woods, the cops use infra-red cameras mounted on helicopters to seek out 'grow houses'. Quite effective, apparently

Didn't work near here, as the cunning sods built a massive grow farm underground (still got caught, after around three years of growing the stuff, though):

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-wiltshire-39064526

Nuclear bunker 'cannabis factory' in Wiltshire: Three charged - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-wiltshire-39081734)

mikemmb
18th Feb 2018, 12:37
This is an interesting article (http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm) about using the frequency of the UK grid to determine how much power is required

I wonder if this is related to a scheme I heard of many moons ago which seems to have gone quite.
If I remember correctly it was a sort of smart socket for use on non essential loads (think of stuff like supermarket freezers at night). Apparently the smart socket could detect, by monitoring the AC wave form, when the generation device (power station) was getting close to its limit. It then switched off the power to the load for a time. The article said that these devices would be cheap and could be used in normal 13A sockets etc as an adapter (very similar to a plug in timer) to create a smart switched socket.
Presume it ended up in the pile marked "Good Idea but no workable business model could be found".

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 12:55
Presume it ended up in the pile marked "Good Idea but no workable business model could be found".
There is such a business model at a larger scale, but it relies on putting periodic bids into National Grid auctions, not the sort of process the average citizen, or even supermarket chain, tends to get into. What appears to be missing at the moment is enough margin for the consolidators to be able to make a profit putting out gadgets at the retail scale, which will be because National Grid is able to buy all the flexibility it needs at a price which doesn't need this amount of hassle.

This might change if the electricity industry decides it's more profitable to get into this small scale demand management than to build new power stations, which will also depend on whether the government gets right its pulling of various market levers in its attempt to keep the lights on.

(I work for a company that does this stuff, but several layers away from the electricity trading, which I don't pretend to understand, so the above is in the nature of hand-wavy "it works a bit like this" and is quite likely wrong in detail.)

Nemrytter
18th Feb 2018, 13:46
Gosh, it's a big surprise to see certain ppruner's railing against solar power. It's almost like they're wilfully ignorant and/or stupid.

andytug
18th Feb 2018, 15:30
Nobody who is growing cannabis in their attic actually pays for the electricity FFS! - you can't detect cannabis farms by looking at electricity bills any more.

But you can by driving around with infra-red cameras, because they rarely think to insulate the attic properly :D:ok:

I know, was just thinking of things that use an obviously insane amount of electricity.
Most are in basements these days to avoid infra red cameras, one recently was in the swimming pool of a posh (rented) house.

old,not bold
18th Feb 2018, 19:03
I've been trying to follow the debate about "smart" meters, with limited success.

So I can only fall back on the certainty that if you consume x units of energy a year with an ordinary meter, you'll consume the same number with a smart meter, unless you change your behaviour to reduce your consumption.

I haven't seen a shred of evidence that having a smart meter causes, of itself, anyone to make that change. We all have meters, we all know how much we consume on account of the bill we get every month, and we all know that if we reduce out consumption the bill will get smaller (ceteris paribus, as we don't say). If we don't reduce consumption it is because we don't want to and/or don't feel a need to. Why and how would a smart meter change that?

The industry's attempts to persuade us that "if you have a smart meter, your energy costs will reduce" are no better than an amateurish con. To find the reason they are trying so hard, look no further than the savings they will make on meter reading and billing, and the ease with which they will be able to cut off a supply.

The consumer will pay exactly the same as before, plus the costs of the smart meter which the suppliers will recover through their energy prices. To say nothing of the additional amounts you'll pay for peak period consumption if and when dynamic pricing comes in. Will the cost of off-peak energy be reduced? No. It will simply be less expensive than peak period energy.

The Government's role as the deluded stooge of the suppliers is as ever shameful.

Mad Monk
18th Feb 2018, 19:05
I do not see the necessity and am concerned about their RF emissions.
As an SWL (Shortwave Listener) for some fifty years, mostly Amateur but also commercial, the noise floor just keeps rising and these meters with their pulsed transmissions appear to be RF dirty.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 19:05
If we don't reduce consumption it is because we don't want to and/or don't feel a need to. Why and how would a smart meter change that?
For those of us whose energy bills are lost in the noise that's probably right.

ORAC
18th Feb 2018, 21:30
I haven't seen a shred of evidence that having a smart meter causes, of itself, anyone to make that change. Hearsay only, but my retired sister has one and it certainly has. She keeps telling me how amazed she was when the usage shot up when she used her oven so now she uses her slow cooker much more which barely registers. How she only half fills her kettle as it also makes usage go so high. How she turns out lights as she thought they used so little, but now only has a sidelight in when watching TV etc.

According to her she has reduced her consumption by about 25%, which I suppose is what the government were after if means they don’t have to build new power plants.

Fareastdriver
18th Feb 2018, 21:50
According to her she has reduced her consumption by about 25%

You don't need a Smart Meter to do what she has done.

VP959
18th Feb 2018, 21:53
Our old supplier gave us a free energy monitor, that radios consumption data to a box with a display inside the house. That works every bit as well as a smart meter, at much less cost. It also doesn't allow the tariff to be varied by the half hour, which is ultimately what suppliers want to do with smart metering.

I asked our meter reader some time ago about smart meters putting him out of a job, and apparently manual readings are still required by law, so he has to read smart meters periodically just like he has to read ordinary meters. So, there's no cost saving by getting rid of meter readers.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 21:53
According to her she has reduced her consumption by about 25%, which I suppose is what the government were after if means they don’t have to build new power plants.
The government don't build power plants. But they do have to bribe private industry to do so.

G-CPTN
18th Feb 2018, 21:56
I am currently staying at my son's house.
Earlier today (during daylight!) I counted eighteen lightbulbs lit on the ground floor - and they frequently leave lights on even when rooms are unoccupied (and have always done so).
I have tried (over the years) to educate them in the wiseness of turning off lights when not needed, but they continue unabated.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Feb 2018, 21:57
I asked our meter reader some time ago about smart meters putting him out of a job, and apparently manual readings are still required by law
The law on electricity meters is bizarrely out of date.

The widgets on top of street lights in a smart street lighting system have meters in them, which record how much electricity each light actually used, as opposed to the old system whereby there is an official system of guesswork.

But these meters can't be used for billing purposes, because the legal definition of an electricity meter[#] requires that it have a display of some sort, which obviously these don't (they report the readings by radio). So your local authority probably knows pretty accurately how much electricity it's using for the street lights, but still pays according to the official guesswork system rather than the actual usage.

[#] In the UK. In other places these meters are used for billing.

SARF
18th Feb 2018, 23:47
Do led lights use enough electricity to bother turning them off ? Won’t the calories involved getting off your arse be better used elsewhere?

andytug
19th Feb 2018, 10:40
Do led lights use enough electricity to bother turning them off ? Won’t the calories involved getting off your arse be better used elsewhere?

LED lights are around a tenth of the wattage of the tungsten or halogen bulbs, so depends how many you have...

Sallyann1234
19th Feb 2018, 11:03
We are an all LED house, and the total consumption is trivial. But unused lights get turned off when leaving a room at night. The switch is by the door, so why leave it on?

ATNotts
19th Feb 2018, 11:07
Our old supplier gave us a free energy monitor, that radios consumption data to a box with a display inside the house. That works every bit as well as a smart meter, at much less cost. It also doesn't allow the tariff to be varied by the half hour, which is ultimately what suppliers want to do with smart metering.

I asked our meter reader some time ago about smart meters putting him out of a job, and apparently manual readings are still required by law, so he has to read smart meters periodically just like he has to read ordinary meters. So, there's no cost saving by getting rid of meter readers.

I too had one of these monitors, and I could see when my daughter was using her hair straighteners, when the tumble dryer was running, when the kettle was being used - but after a few months watching it becomes boring, nobody really changes there behaviour and we all carried on a normal - which didn't, and doesn't include leaving lights on willy nilly, and heating the house whilst the doors are wide open!

When and if smart meters become "smart" and can be used by the whole range of suppliers, I may consider getting one but just how much of a faff is it to read meters monthly and upload readings to the supplier's website?

Incidentally, since moving to Ovo I've never seen a meter reader, though previously when I was the EDF the reader who came around told me, as you said that coming out to read the meter at least annually is an legal requirement.

gemma10
19th Feb 2018, 11:28
We too are an all LED house. I just wish the tumble dryer ran on the same energy level. Roll on the spring. Can`t see what possible use a smart meter would have in our household. Certainly wouldn`t reduce the Kw loading the tumble dryer uses.

treadigraph
19th Feb 2018, 11:36
Tumble dryer certainly is an extravagance for me, ought to dry me clobber more cheaply. Have movement detector LEDs in the hall and stairwell, other lights are low energy and only on when needed - sitting room is one table lamp in the evening which is a nice ambience.

Use a halogen oven for cooking meat and so on, think it's supposed to be cheaper than my horrible old gas oven, certainly quicker!

gemma10
19th Feb 2018, 12:02
Gas oven. Now that`s an interesting point. We`ve discussed in the past the fact that smart meters could have the ability to turn off the electric supply if the bill isn`t paid. And we`ve also discussed the fact that smart meters will also monitor the gas readings. Does this infer that gas could be turned off by internal solenoid if the bill isn`t paid? :* Or have I answered my own question that gas will only be monitored?

Tech Guy
19th Feb 2018, 13:01
I will boil the kettle as and when I please and stuff the meter telling me its an expensive extravagance.

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Feb 2018, 13:05
We too are an all LED house. I just wish the tumble dryer ran on the same energy level. Roll on the spring. Can`t see what possible use a smart meter would have in our household. Certainly wouldn`t reduce the Kw loading the tumble dryer uses.
We spend 0p on energy for tumble driers. You can buy these wire rack thingies to hang stuff on indoors when the weather isn't suitable for outdoor drying.

phnuff
19th Feb 2018, 13:47
By pure coincidence I have just off of the phone to EDF who set up smart meters around months ago. It appears the gas meter is inactive and they want me to call their installation engineers to fix it because they are not allowed to contact the meter engineers. That is insane and I would suggest avoiding them like mad.

I have a friend who is a data protection guru and his concern is that by looking at energy usage in a property, it is possible to tell when a house is likely to be unoccupied and a prime target to be broken into. Of course, this means the data has to fall into the wrong hands and I can't imagine that happening. Then again, I can't imagine an energy suppliers support staff being unable to contact meter engineers !!

gemma10
19th Feb 2018, 14:19
We spend 0p on energy for tumble driers. You can buy these wire rack thingies to hang stuff on indoors when the weather isn't suitable for outdoor drying.

And the room fills up with moisture requiring all the windows to be open or turn on the dehumidifiers, as condensed moisture leads to mould.

treadigraph
19th Feb 2018, 14:46
I got a new tumble dryer courtesy of Hotpoint as mine was one of those self-immolating models - the replacement takes twice as long to dry anything as it conforms to the latest regulations.

Woollen sweaters, etc, go in on "high" as trying to dry anything on the "low" setting is like attempting to cook a chicken with a birthday candle.

Fareastdriver
19th Feb 2018, 14:53
Never mind. Come March 2019 we well be able to buy tumble dryers that dry, vacuum cleaners that clean, toilets that flush properly and Euthymol will be able to produce real toothpaste again.

Blues&twos
19th Feb 2018, 15:22
Crikey...Euthymol.
The only thing I have ever used that stuff for is cleaning the internal parts of dissolved oxygen sensors.
Can't imagine cleaning my teeth with it.

Curious Pax
19th Feb 2018, 17:08
The government don't build power plants. But they do have to bribe private industry to do so.

Or in our case bribe foreign governments to do so!!

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Feb 2018, 18:14
And the room fills up with moisture requiring all the windows to be open or turn on the dehumidifiers, as condensed moisture leads to mould.
Doesn't happen to us.

ian16th
19th Feb 2018, 20:59
Never mind. Come March 2019 we well be able to buy tumble dryers that dry, vacuum cleaners that clean, toilets that flush properly and Euthymol will be able to produce real toothpaste again.
....and Wright's Coal Tar Soap?

tdracer
20th Feb 2018, 03:36
According to her she has reduced her consumption by about 25%, which I suppose is what the government were after if means they don’t have to build new power plants.
I dropped my electric consumption by ~33% simply by replacing my old refrigerator (probably some of the best money I ever spent - I have less food spoilage due to the new refer as well...).
A smart meter wouldn't do squat for my consumption - I reduced it to a practical minimum long ago. I switched over most of my lights to compact fluorescents years ago (now slowing converting to LED as the CFL's fail), and if I forget to turn off a light my wife will (she often turns out the light in my office when I've only gone to the other room to get something).
As for the oven and stove, when I want to cook food, I'm going to cook food. I'm sure as :mad: not going to eat cold or undercooked food just to save a few watts and a couple pennies... Even the 'extravagance' of baking a pizza uses roughly one kilowatt-hour - about 10 cents around here - compared to the ~$5-$10 I spent for the ingredients. :ugh: Besides, this time of year all that 'waste' heat from the electrical appliances isn't wasted - it helps keep the house warm and reduces my gas heating bill.

UniFoxOs
20th Feb 2018, 07:38
And the room fills up with moisture requiring all the windows to be open or turn on the dehumidifiers, as condensed moisture leads to mould.

Have the rack almost permanently set up in the spare bedroom, never happened in 20 years.

Does this infer that gas could be turned off by internal solenoid if the bill isn`t paid?

I think that would be illegal as well as dangerous in UK.

tom775257
20th Feb 2018, 09:14
Surely the final aim is to eventually convert a 'unit' of electricity from KWH to KVAH as our domestic loads change from resistive to inductive / capacitive over time with increasingly variable power factors? The smart meters measure both apparent and true power but currently bill true.

VP959
20th Feb 2018, 09:32
Surely the final aim is to eventually convert a 'unit' of electricity from KWH to KVAH as our domestic loads change from resistive to inductive / capacitive over time with increasingly variable power factors? The smart meters measure both apparent and true power but currently bill true.

The existing meters have always read true power too, have done for many decades. They use a two coil induction system in the mechanical ones, which is pretty clever and the newer electronic ones (not smart meters) measure both the current and voltage waveforms with a pretty high accuracy (typically 16 bit with an oversampling rate of around 900kHz). The accuracy of the electronic (not smart) meters is typically +/-0.1% on voltage, current and phase.

The specification for the accuracy of smart meters is no different to that of existing meters.

tom775257
20th Feb 2018, 10:18
Hi VP959,

Yes agreed true power has been /is measured for domestic. What I am suggesting is they will switch to measuring and charging for apparent power rather than true at some point once everyone has a smart meter (as it would be advantageous to the power companies and the smart meters have the capability of measuring both).

VP959
20th Feb 2018, 10:59
Hi VP959,

Yes agreed true power has been /is measured for domestic. What I am suggesting is they will switch to measuring and charging for apparent power rather than true at some point once everyone has a smart meter (as it would be advantageous to the power companies and the smart meters have the capability of measuring both).

The existing electronic meters measure both, too. All the meters I've seen with an IrDA port on the front can have their internal registers read by the meter reader. I made up an IrDA reader to read the read-only registers in our meter, not really to do this (although that data is available) but to read the exported energy register. Although the meter only displays imported energy, it does measure and store exported energy internally, and I was curious to know whether we were generating and exporting more or less than the deemed 50% of generation capacity that we get paid for.

VP959
22nd Feb 2018, 16:42
Re: the mention earlier in this thread of using smart meters to introduce half hourly tariffs that track the wholesale rate, one company has said they are going to do it: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/feb/22/energy-company-promises-to-pay-customer-to-use-electricity I've highlighted the bottom line...............

Octopus Energy’s new Agile tariff tracks wholesale electricity prices, allowing customers to take advantage if there is an excess of supply and the electricity price “goes negative”.

Across Britain, whenever more electricity is generated than consumed, wholesale prices fall – sometimes to below zero – at which point suppliers are paid to take energy off the grid.

This typically happens on windy, sunny weekend days when wind turbines and solar panels are producing lots of power and demand is relatively low.
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When this happens customers on the deal will be alerted by text, email or their mobile phone app. They can then start their washing machines or charge their electric car.

When demand exceeds supply and the wholesale price rises, users will be charged the higher price. The company has capped the maximum amount customers can be charged at 35p/kWh – about three times its standard electricity price.

GLIDER 90
3rd Mar 2018, 14:58
The first time I heard of a smart meter was on the news where they were in someones house talking to the owner about the benefits of using a smart meter. The next thing they were saying that the smart meter had to be fitted to one of your rooms like a room temperature thermometer. About a year later I got several letters from Eon about having it done and how good these meters were, they came to do mine sometime ago and replaced the old unit in the outside meter cabinet with a new one. To my surprise the smart meter was a small portable unit that could be plugged in at anytime, with only using it a few times have not bothered since. To me they are a waste of time but maybe not to others?

Blues&twos
3rd Mar 2018, 15:10
Had my first phone call from my electricity provider telling me they were "mandated by the Government" and that they were phoning to arrange an appointment for installation. Very quick call, ended by me saying I didn't want one and hanging up while the bloke was asking why I didn't want the benefits of a smart meter.
Weasel words to make the consumer believe they are under some sort of legal obligation to accept one, and the apparent lack of choice implied in the 'we need to make an appointment' spiel would be seen as a scam in any other unsolicited phone call.

pulse1
3rd Mar 2018, 16:13
My provider, Green Energy, sent me an e mail asking me to make an appointment to have a smart meter fitted. I opened the e mail and then deleted it. The next e mail said that me opening the first e mail showed that I was interested in having a meter fitted and asking me to make an appointment. That got deleted too. Haven't heard any more yet.

zed3
3rd Mar 2018, 17:52
Great to hear that the movement 'against' is gaining ground here. Big business, with government connivence, should be rightly rejected in this case.

gemma10
3rd Mar 2018, 18:19
There was some woman on breakfast tv last week claiming that the roll out for smart meters was going particularly well. And neither of the presenters asked whether it was a legal requirement or not. So she was just feeding the public with bullsh*t

Pontius Navigator
3rd Mar 2018, 18:30
The first time I heard of a smart meter was on the news where they were in someones house talking to the owner about the benefits of using a smart meter. The next thing they were saying that the smart meter had to be fitted to one of your rooms like a room temperature thermometer. About a year later I got several letters from Eon about having it done and how good these meters were, they came to do mine sometime ago and replaced the old unit in the outside meter cabinet with a new one. To my surprise the smart meter was a small portable unit that could be plugged in at anytime, with only using it a few times have not bothered since. To me they are a waste of time but maybe not to others?
This sounds more like a consumption meter that shows you your consumption and not a meter that is linked back to your supplier. I have had several, a novelty and no real practical benefit. I have one now that can handle 3 tariffs,you input rates and times and it will give you spot consumption, hourly rates, daily and weekly use against targets. More useful but you soon get used to ignoring it.

Donkey497
3rd Mar 2018, 21:40
My smart meter was installed in early October last year.

I have just paid my second estimated bill for gas and received a £180+ rebate against my electricity usage. My smart meter won't talk to my gas meter & I was advised by the chappie installing it that he had reported its lack of chat & in any case it would be investigated if it hadn't reported a usage figure to the supplier by the end of the month.

Two bills in - I'm still waiting for my supplier to get in touch........

I wonder how big the rebate will be as & when my supplier gets a "true "reading. They don't believe the ones I send in on the grounds that everyone else around uses way more than I do. They're mostly housebound pensioners (with good pensions), so they're in 24/7, in a warm house. I'm out at work apart from coming home to sleep with only a fridge & fish tank air pump running when I'm out, but my energy supplier doesn't seem to be able to understand how there might be a difference in our energy usage.

gemma10
28th Mar 2018, 12:44
Just been watching an iplayer account of the House of Lords debating the governments roll out of smart meters. Seems the roll out may have to be extended to 2023 as only a mere 8 million have been installed to date. However I read elsewhere that smart meters are still not compulsory, and I wonder for how long. One of the issues concerning smart meters is the type being fitted. SMETS1 meters apparently are not compatible with all energy suppliers, meaning that if one changes their supplier it could be that the new supplier is unable to read or download effectively any meter readings etc. SMETS2 meters however will have the ability to be effective over all energy suppliers. Only a few of this type of meter have been installed to date.

So if anyone is contemplating a meter then perhaps advice should be obtained as to which variant of meter is going to be installed.

dsc810
28th Mar 2018, 12:49
I would not be averse to a smart meter provided its a Smets2.

If the energy companies have any sense once smets 2 arrive in quantities they will start offering reduced tarrifs where the T&C's require a smart meter to be fitted - much like discounts for no paper bills.
That will improve the take up considerably.

Pontius Navigator
28th Mar 2018, 15:11
I would not be averse to a smart meter provided its a Smets2.

If the energy companies have any sense once smets 2 arrive in quantities they will start offering reduced tarrifs where the T&C's require a smart meter to be fitted - much like discounts for no paper bills.
That will improve the take up considerably.
Those of an age will remember water meters being introduced. Water was priced against council rates. You could pay for a meter or stick with rates. New build automatically had a metered supply. It soon became apparent that metering was cheaper and meters were offered for free. I think my current water bills are still no more than the old rate bills.

dastocks
28th Mar 2018, 15:19
Those of an age will remember water meters being introduced. Water was priced against council rates. You could pay for a meter or stick with rates. New build automatically had a metered supply. It soon became apparent that metering was cheaper and meters were offered for free. I think my current water bills are still no more than the old rate bills.
I can't have a water meter installed because the supply arrangements to my flat are too complex: it would require at least two meters and access is an issue. The local supplier has therefore changed the basis of charging from the old Rateable Value to an assessed consumption based on there only being one occupant in the flat. This dramatically reduced my water bill.

radeng
28th Mar 2018, 18:07
According to the man from SSE who telephoned me to try and persuade me to have a smart meter, he hadn't heard of SMETS1 and SMETS2 meters!

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Mar 2018, 18:37
Those of an age will remember water meters being introduced. Water was priced against council rates. You could pay for a meter or stick with rates. New build automatically had a metered supply. It soon became apparent that metering was cheaper and meters were offered for free. I think my current water bills are still no more than the old rate bills.
We have two semis knocked together, with water on the meter in one and on the rates in the other. Now that we no longer have three children at home I've had a look at the water bills, and the unmetered supply is costing us around three times as much as the metered supply. However ... we hardly ever use much water in the metered house, so it's entirely plausible that we wouldn't save anything by having a meter put in.

But we've just had a new offer from the water company - a free meter, as before, but if we don't like the bills during the first two years we can revert to unmetered bills.

Tempting ... until you cost in the days off work waiting for workmen who never turn up, and then get it wrong when they do ... if I thought they'd turn up at 0800 one morning and have finished the job right first time by 0900 then I'd also believe in flying pigs, free rainbow coloured unicorns, #brexit, and all sorts of other fairy tales.

ZeBedie
28th Mar 2018, 18:47
If I thought I could get a smart meter put in and they'd turn up at 0800 one morning and have finished the job right first time by 0900 then I'd also believe in flying pigs, free rainbow coloured unicorns, #The EU, and all sorts of other fairy tales. Oh wait, this isn't about leaving the EU, is it?

treadigraph
28th Mar 2018, 18:57
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast..."

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Mar 2018, 20:15
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast..."
No way I'm getting up early enough to have breakfast before 0800. But that's the beauty of having two houses with (deliberately) separate systems - if the water's off in one kitchen I can fill the kettle in the other one. And use the other shower. And use the other loo.

old,not bold
28th Mar 2018, 21:17
The thought we must all hold on to is that the supposed benefits to consumers are a fairy tale; you reduce your bills by consuming less, not by having a smart meter.

The benefits are solely for the supplier. Their costs are reduced and they can cut off any user remotely.

End of story. There's nothing more to it than that. It's a Government backed con.

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Mar 2018, 21:44
The thought we must all hold on to is that the supposed benefits to consumers are a fairy tale; you reduce your bills by consuming less, not by having a smart meter.
A real smart meter, one that was actually useful, would report usage by device (or at least by wall socket). So you could save money by reclaiming some of the cost from your teenager who stays out overnight whilst leaving an entire bedroom full of electronics powered up.

Pontius Navigator
28th Mar 2018, 21:59
GTW, we never even saw the meter being installed. It was on a piece of lawn outside our gate. In most cases in the pavement outside the property.

gemma10
28th Mar 2018, 23:02
GTW, we never even saw the meter being installed. It was on a piece of lawn outside our gate. In most cases in the pavement outside the property.



I don`t understand that. Are you saying your meter is outside the bounds of your property? :confused:

k3k3
28th Mar 2018, 23:33
Mine is outside my boundary by about six inches.

419
28th Mar 2018, 23:46
I don`t understand that. Are you saying your meter is outside the bounds of your property? :confused:

PN is referring to a water meter (I think) and provided it's on the line into the house, there's no problem having it outside of the boundary.

treadigraph
29th Mar 2018, 00:44
No way I'm getting up early enough to have breakfast before 0800.

Breakfast for me tomorrow will be about 1100. Plenty of time for believing a whole cornucopia of impossible things...

But I don't believe I'll get a smart meter.

DON T
29th Mar 2018, 07:51
I received an e mail last week from SSE saying they would be in my area during a certain period fitting smart meters. I haven’t replied.

Yesterday I received another e mail from SSE saying that there app for sending meter readings to them would not be available again after 30 March 2018.

I wonder why?

G-CPTN
29th Mar 2018, 08:01
Yesterday I received another e mail from SSE saying that there app for sending meter readings to them would not be available again after 30 March 2018.

There is a telephone number on the bill which can be used to update any 'readings'.

VP959
29th Mar 2018, 08:27
It's been said here before, but the primary reason for wanting all houses to have smart meters is to be able to introduce short duration tariff rate changes.

The suppliers buy energy in half-hourly chunks, and the price per half hour varies a great deal. The suppliers mitigate their risk by estimating what the mean wholesale rate will be over a longer period, adding their operating cost and profit to this, and using this to set their prices.

What they want to do is remove the risk they currently bear in estimating the mean cost to them on the half-hourly wholesale market, by passing that risk on to the consumer.

One company has already announced it's plans, http://www.energylivenews.com/2018/02/22/want-to-get-paid-to-use-electricity/ with a proposed tariff that varies from being very low at some times of the day but around two to three times the current "normal" tariff rate during peak demand periods, with the peak usually being early evening.

I looked at whether there was any advantage to this for us, and concluded that it would just about double our electricity bill. We use very little electricity during their proposed cheap rate period; almost all our consumption would be during the very high tariff peak period. Partly that's due to our lifestyle pattern, partly is due to having a big array of solar panels on the roof, but even if we didn't have the solar panels we'd need to stop having dinner in the early evening, stop using the TV and PC for a couple of hours or so at the same time, in order to just get our bill back to the figure we currently pay.

When smart meters become mandated (as I am sure they will) then it's likely that all suppliers will switch to tariffs that vary through the day. This will then make comparing suppliers far harder, as you will need to know your pattern of usage through the day to make a fair comparison. The result will probably be more reluctance for people to switch suppliers, because of the complexity that's inherent in smart meter variable tariff charging.

One way around the high peak rate tariffs that are part and parcel of smart meters and variable tariff rates, might be to fit a battery system, so that the battery can be charged at the cheapest tarfiff periods and then used to avoid importing energy during the peak tariff periods. It will be some time before battery prices come down to the point where this is viable though, I think.

mikemmb
29th Mar 2018, 11:29
It’s amazing what a huge con the introduction of smart meters is!

Firstly the government & suppliers make no mention of the real reason for their introduction & secondly most consumers seem to just stick their head in the sand and ignore the obvious?

It will bite us big time very soon!

DON T
29th Mar 2018, 11:48
There is a telephone number on the bill which can be used to update any 'readings'.

Unfortunately your reply does not answer my question. I’m of the opinion that the two emails arriving within a short time have an ulterior motive.

Gertrude the Wombat
29th Mar 2018, 12:23
It will be some time before battery prices come down to the point where this is viable though, I think.
It's viable now at some scales for some applications (think container-sized battery in a spare bit of car park for a company that uses megawatts).

VP959
29th Mar 2018, 12:43
It's viable now at some scales for some applications (think container-sized battery in a spare bit of car park for a company that uses megawatts).

Yes, and the signs are that domestic-scale battery systems are coming down in price. In many ways, peak-shaving the grid with battery storage is a far better solution to the demand-driven wholesale pricing problem than fitting millions of smart meters - it fixes the real problem, by helping to stabilise the grid and reduce the peak-to-trough ratio, which is the real issue.

Grayfly
29th Mar 2018, 13:33
Government strategies are driven by lobby groups, the smart meter group won that battle during the recession when a new industry was required to get people in work. The fact that it wasn't helping energy strategy was irrelevant, it got people off benefits.

Battery storage would indeed help but they need a good lobby group at Westminster to explain the political benefits and help the technically illiterate that always get into power. That goes for all parties, including the Greens.

gemma10
3rd May 2018, 17:20
On Watchdog last night there was a discussion about the safety aspect of installations of some smart meters with the Minister of Energy. She stated that the fitting of smart meters was not compulsory.

Should there have been a "yet" after that statement?

ORAC
31st Jul 2018, 17:08
Daily Telegraph: Smart Meters Will Raise Power Bills at Peak Times

Smart meters will be used to increase energy prices at peak times, the head of of one of Britains’s “Big Six” providers has admitted for the first time. The introduction of surge energy pricing has been predicted by a number of energy experts, but the admission by Scottish Power is the first time a Big Six energy provider has revealed such concrete plans.

Scottish Power told the Daily Telegraphit would introduce new smart meter tariffs as soon as they are approved as early next year, which would see the price of energy fluctuating every half an hour.

Keith Anderson, the firm’s chief executive...... said his firm “would aim to introduce tariffs that offer savings to our customers based on real-time information”.

gemma10
31st Jul 2018, 17:36
And the public are being conned into believing that smart meters are being installed to save us energy.

It would be interesting to know what other european governments/electricity companies are doing with regards tarriffs.

G-CPTN
31st Jul 2018, 17:39
And the public are being conned into believing that smart meters are being installed to save us energy.

Note that non of the suppliers are claiming that those with smart meters will save money.

edi_local
31st Jul 2018, 17:51
And the public are being conned into believing that smart meters are being installed to save us energy.

It would be interesting to know what other european governments/electricity companies are doing with regards tarriffs.

No one is saying it will save money or energy at all. It's not a con. It's just letting people see what energy they are using in real time. That's not a con, it's meant to make you realise how much you are spending and try to nudge people towards using less as they can see right in front of them what it's costing. There is obviously no automatic reduction just by getting one installed and that is why they haven't been advertised as such. Anyone who thinks they reduce bills just by having one is an idiot as no one will have told them that.

Personally speaking I love m smart meter. It replaced 2 clunky old meters and I can quickly see what I've spent each month without even needing to log into my account. Had it for over 2 years and not had a single issue with it.

Sallyann1234
31st Jul 2018, 18:05
Note that non of the suppliers are claiming that those with smart meters will save money.
Oh yes they are. There has been a campaign of whole page adverts saying that you will save money*

*with weasel words in tiny print at the bottom.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Jul 2018, 18:49
it's meant to make you realise how much you are spending and try to nudge people towards using less as they can see right in front of them what it's costing
I just look at the annual bill. Could I be arsed to do anything, anything at all, to shave a few percent off the total? Nope. If I had a smart meter I'd never look at it.

Pontius Navigator
31st Jul 2018, 18:58
Actually they can save money if you use a smart appliance. One that shuts down during periods of peak demand. Pricing in 30 minute slots, a freezer can happily shut down for 30 minutes. A washing machine likewise can shut down.

Being smart I expect would mean you could set the maximum price with the washer set lower than the freezer, the iron lower still, and the oven not at all.

Sallyann1234
31st Jul 2018, 19:32
I just look at the annual bill. Could I be arsed to do anything, anything at all, to shave a few percent off the total? Nope. If I had a smart meter I'd never look at it.
Same here.
I use appliances only when I need them. I don't need a meter to tell me they are running, I already know that.

Cpt_Pugwash
31st Jul 2018, 19:43
It’s amazing what a huge con the introduction of smart meters is!

Firstly the government & suppliers make no mention of the real reason for their introduction & secondly most consumers seem to just stick their head in the sand and ignore the obvious?

It will bite us big time very soon!

The third element to the con is that they are still advertising the smart meters as being free, ignoring the fact that everyones tariff has increased to pay for the roll-out. I''d take it up with the ASA if I thought it would achieve anything.

mikemmb
31st Jul 2018, 19:59
The third element to the con is that they are still advertising the smart meters as being free, ignoring the fact that everyones tariff has increased to pay for the roll-out. I''d take it up with the ASA if I thought it would achieve anything.

Ahh yes your statement that "everyones tariff has increased to pay for the roll-out" just reminded me of the fourth element to the con!

There has to be Two Rollouts because the dumbo's in charge of the first phase of the Smart Meter rollout forgot to ensure that a common interface/communication spec was agreed!

VP959
31st Jul 2018, 20:08
Anyone with any common sense has realised from the outset that the introduction of "Smart" meters was a way to reduce the risk suppliers have at present by buying energy at a variable half hourly rate and then selling it as a fixed tariff to consumers. Suppliers take a risk by guessing what the mean price of energy will be over a period and then setting their tariffs accordingly, so they cover their costs and make a profit. They want to offset their risk to the consumer, by passing on the half hourly tariff rate changes to them, so they can operate on a cost-plus profit scheme, with no risk.

This all seems reasonable until you realise that it means that consumers won't have any way to predict future bills, to cap their energy costs with fixed rate deals and won't be able to compare how well one supplier's prices compares with another, as all the prices will be changing every 30 minutes.

The other hidden feature of smart meters is that they enable kVA charging instead of kWH charging, and for a modern house with lots of switched mode supply controlled appliances and lighting that's likely to result in around a 30 to 50% increase in apparent energy use. Things like LED and low energy fluorescent lights tend to operate with a Power Factor of around 0.5 to 0.6, and with a PF of 0.5 their cost if charged using kVA will be double the current price when charged with an ordinary kWh meter. I can see there being a growing market for PF correction systems for domestic properties before too long, not that I inherently disagree with charging by kVA when the PF is way below unity - industry has been charged like this for decades.

Grayfly
31st Jul 2018, 20:17
I can change my smart meter to a dumb one just by changing suppliers. They are the first generation ones which can't be interrogated by other suppliers. So when they start the new tariffs malarky I'll turn it back to a dumb one by changing suppliers. Happy to provide them monthly readings once more.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Jul 2018, 21:11
the iron lower still
I've just bought a new iron (the bloody things only last five minutes). This one knows whether it's being used, and shuts itself down when it hasn't been used for a few minutes. Then heats itself back up in seconds when you pick it up.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Jul 2018, 21:13
I can see there being a growing market for PF correction systems for domestic properties before too long, not that I inherently disagree with charging by kVA when the PF is way below unity - industry has been charged like this for decades.
Indeed - why should the network pay for thicker wires to transport current that the customers aren't paying for.

Pontius Navigator
31st Jul 2018, 21:16
I can change my smart meter to a dumb one just by changing suppliers. They are the first generation ones which can't be interrogated by other suppliers. So when they start the new tariffs malarky I'll turn it back to a dumb one by changing suppliers. Happy to provide them monthly readings once more.
I understand you can change back to your original supplier and it stays dumb.

flash8
31st Jul 2018, 21:16
From the letter I've got:

Disadvantage: having to take time off work to wait for an operative who probably won't turn up.

Advantage: nil.

Guess whether I have responded to the letter.

Advantage to GCHQ: Priceless.

pax britanica
31st Jul 2018, 21:50
If the energy companies think it is a good idea they mean it is a good idea for them to screw around with your tariff.

If the Government thinks its a good idea it is because they get backhanders from the energy companies to stop HMG insisting on proper power generation facilities .

If both parties think it is a good idea it is probably NOT a good idea for you

I have an early model smart meter it is called rotating dials and O Level Physics - dials go fast cost goes up -heat things cost goes up.

Just come back from Portugal-traditionally a backwater of Europe where i was a bit alarmed to see that at times the place looks more modern than the UK . And they produce a huge proportion of renewable energy from Wind, Sun and Hydro . Ok so large scale solar isn really on in the UK , they have the Alentejo region where no one lives and its bloody hot . It is also fairly windy especially on the coast and the high inland plains and on the Douro river a lot of locks/dams colocated with hydro generators.

In UK we have lots and lots of wind (and I know wind turbines are not that efficient ) but do we really exploit the opportunities for hydro that must exist in Wales, the Peaks, Scotland. the Lake District etc -of course this costs a lot of money and we wont have any after Brexit. But then after Brexit we will still get much of our electricity from France via French energy companies in UK and and even bigger proportion of our gas (which goes in large part to generate our power) from Norway and Russia via Germany all of whom can stick the price up as the mood takes them and we have NO alternative sources or are we going to build a 12000 mile feeder cable to New Zealand to pick up spare geothermal generated Amps.

Krystal n chips
1st Aug 2018, 06:16
As this seems to be a rather contentious topic, here's the official stance.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consumers/household-gas-and-electricity-guide/understand-smart-prepayment-and-other-energy-meters/smart-meters-your-rights

Given the expertise on here however, this site offers an opportunity to put that expertise to a wider audience.

I have to say I have no concerns or problems with mine. There again, like others, I only use appliances when needed....which means I can control the gas / electric usage as required. It's not exactly complex power management after all.


https://www.ukpower.co.uk/gas_electricity_news/smart-energy-meters-a-boon-or-a-bane-to-consumers (https://www.ukpower.co.uk/gas_electricity_news/smart-energy-meters-a-boon-or-a-bane-to-consumersP)

Dont Hang Up
1st Aug 2018, 07:32
If the energy companies think it is a good idea they mean it is a good idea for them to screw around with your tariff.

I take a different view. I am not prepared to consider a smart meter until it includes "screwing around" with the tariff. When the power company, via their smart meter, is able to offer me a unit-cost guaranteed for say the next two hours, based on their current load balancing requirements, thus enabling me to decide when is a good time to put a wash on - then is when I will consider getting one.

Pontius Navigator
1st Aug 2018, 08:21
If the energy companies think it is a good idea they mean it is a good idea for them
Like those interminal surveys, how do you think we are doing? We have your best interests . . .

Only so long as you remain a customer or keep off social media.

Doctor Cruces
1st Aug 2018, 19:24
If it's anything like the roll out of Digital TV services it will be a scam and have nothing to do with it!!