RAF Vulcan Callsigns 1970's.

[GLIDER 90]

Afternoon All

Did the Vulcans back in the 70's apart from trigrapghs use any other different types of callsigns such as they do now for example = TARTAN, etc. Did 27 Sqn Vulcans at Scampton use different callsigns.

Cheers ( Vulcan Nut!! )

Glider90

[MPN11]

Early 80’s it was all trigraphs, as far as Waddington ATC was concerned. I doubt 27 Sqn would have been different.

No idea when the ‘word’ callsigns came in ... after I stopped being an active controller in the mid-80s, for sure! (Apart from the USAF, of course, who had always used them).

[BEagle]

In 1980, routine training in UK used a 3-cipher group, followed by 2 digits.

My last Vulcan sortie was as 49X55 in March 1980. 4:30, of which 3:45 was a boat-spotting bore-ex (MRR)...

[GLIDER 90]

Evening All

Thanks for the reply's, I often wondered what they used.

Cheers
Glider 90

[OldRaven]

On overseas trips we couldn't use Trigraphs, but used RAFAIR callsigns, usually RAFAIR followed by 4 numbers, an example would be RAFAIR 9123.

[H Peacock]

RAFAIR; so much better than that dreadful ASCOT callsign that was inflicted upon us from the bloody AT fleet!

[Tankertrashnav]

You have my sympathy Beagle. I did a couple of MR sorties in 1972 when there was some talk of tankers taking this on as a secondary role. As you imply, quite the most boring flying I ever endured.

[stumblefingers]

Before the RAFAIR callsigns introduced for overseas sorties a 5-letter system was used. They all seemed to start with "M" and 2 of mine on 617 in the very early 70s were MBRAH and MOUSJ.

[BEagle]

I once heard that a Buccaneer (I think) was once allocated Mike Alfa Foxtrot India Alfa for a flight to Cyprus?

I'll bet they had fun with Rome Control!

But I suspect that the tale was a shaggy dog story - surely no-one would have been stupid enough to allocate such a call-sign...:\

[Wensleydale]

surely no-one would have been stupid enough to allocate such a call-sign

Not even 617 who reputedly used the "Dog's Name" callsign on a deployment to the USA....

[GLIDER 90]

Morning All

Thanks, much appreciated did you have to use the full call sign everytime when airborne?



Cheers ( Vulcan Nut!! )

Glider 90

[MPN11]

Full Trigraph on first contact with each ATCO, then first letter + numbers.

So Mike Echo Delta 36 would become Mike 36.

[spekesoftly]

I once heard that a Buccaneer (I think) was once allocated Mike Alfa Foxtrot India Alfa for a flight to Cyprus?

I'll bet they had fun with Rome Control!

I also heard that Rome gave the Bucc "Direct Akrotiri" - an offer they could not refuse!

[212man]

Full Trigraph on first contact with each ATCO, then first letter + numbers.

So Mike Echo Delta 36 would become Mike 36.

First or last? My UAS callsign was WVY121 and this became "yankee 121"

[MPN11]

First or last? My UAS callsign was WVY121 and this became "yankee 121"
I blame aged memory cell, or perhaps the system changed?

My last live controlling was in 1983 ;)

[212man]

I blame aged memory cell, or perhaps the system changed?

My last live controlling was in 1983

possibly the former as this was 1985....

[MPN11]

possibly the former as this was 1985....Most probable!! How weird - I've said it tens of thousands of times over the years, and now it's gone :{

[uffington sb]

Wensleydale.
I was at Marham at the time of the incident. The dog call sign was a formation and also the ops call sign.
A formation using that c/s did an airfield attack at one of the USAF bases, Lakenheath I think, and the dog poo hit the fan.
Senior officers were hauled off to Ramstein for an interview with the USAF commander. The c/s changed to ‘Black Dog’.

[ORAC]

Trigraphs were a crypto thing - daily changing from a SACLANT crypto monthly issue. So you could always look it up and find out the Sqn.

Trigraphs were, or should, have been assigned to every sortie - though generally weren’t.

Missions also used tactical callsigns - especially in AD. Why? BecUse they changed multiple times during a sortie. Let me explain.

A CAP would be assigned a CAP callsign, for example Hotspur, and ideally be manned by @ 4 ship. Aircraft were launched to the CAP using their trigraphs and, on reaching the CAP, assumed the tactical callsign Hotspur 1-4 (assuming they had a 4 ship lead, otherwise we ended up with 2 pairs with different callsigns.)

As fighters claimed kills and went “Winchester”, they would recover and everyone would renumber. On an ad HoC basis aircraft would be pulled from other CAPs who were 4 ship/pairs leads to join a formation and unqualified crews sent to other CAPs. It was not unknown for CAPs to “renumber” their tactical callsign’s 6 or more times.

This obviously would be a nightmare when doing post mission reports when sending MISREPS after their sortie, which were therefore required to use their trigraphs which never changed during their mission. Unfortunately many didn’t and endless hours were spent trying to correlate claims and statistics at the end of every exercise day between Sqn/base/CRC int staff....

RAF daily tactical callsigns were also assigned using a STC manual with each Sqn assigned 5-6 callsigns based on historical reasons, e.g. 43 Sqn Rooster, so simultaneous missions could have different callsigns. That was introduced as so many Sqns had previously assigned their own and multiple “red” formations wandered the Sky confusing everyone - and reportedly - leading to multiple erroneous ejections.

[H Peacock]

First or last? My UAS callsign was WVY121 and this became "yankee 121"

I was WVY170 - so Y170 in the circuit at Woodvale. At Cranwell I started as CWN856, which dropped through 756, 656, 556 then 456 as I progressed through the course. The callsign being N456 at Cranwell/Barkston, but C456 at Coningsby, Waddo etc.

Now was it CWN or CWL? So long ago!

[MPN11]

Ah, the added complexity of local training callsigns. Manby/Strubby used J (JP) and V (Varsity) followed by the instructor/student 2-digit personal callsign. If going 'elsewhere' they would use the station trigraph, followed by that number. I guess the SpecN/StaffN Canberras [and later Dominies] used C/D if doing local training, but generally they were going 'away' and would thus use the trigraph!

So ... you used the FIRST letter of the trigraph when 'away'? ... and the LAST when playing at home? Ignoring local peculiarities, I may therefore have been correct in post #12 after all [exempt local flying training activity].

Gawd, what a complex shambles!! :)

[Boeing Jet]

With recently seeing the detachment of B-52's call signs, I wondered what the Vulcans used when in formation on flypasts or exercise's?

Regards

Boeing Jet

[MPN11]

I don’t recall them ever using those types of callsign during my time there in ATC. But then they tended to operate as singletons most of the time.

[Firestreak]

The shortening of the Trigraph was at the discretion of ATC. When I was IND 01, the full trigraph was used on initial contact, ATC then replied with the reduced trigraph they wanted you to use, chosen to avoid any confusion with any other callsign on frequency, usually I 01 but could be D 01 or in extremis retain the full trigraph.

[Barksdale Boy]

I'm pretty sure we used a station trigraph for exercises, as well as for bog-standard BTR trips.

[Cornish Jack]

Callsogns could be problematical - none more so than during the changeover from Mil (Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog etc.) to ICAO phonetic. Coupled with the use of 5 letter registrations, confusion reigned - in one reported case --VSF becoming Victor Sylvester Foxtrot ! ( Sad old wrinklies will understand!)

[GeeRam]

. Coupled with the use of 5 letter registrations, confusion reigned - in one reported case --VSF becoming Victor Sylvester Foxtrot ! ( Sad old wrinklies will understand!)

Haha...... :D:)

[ACW418]

In the 1960's on IX Sqn we used trigraph call signs with I think our own 3 number suffix. This was always shortened to last letter + 3 number after initial contact. At some point the use of the last letter changed to the first letter + number as that was what I used through the 90's and 00's. As a side comment when on BFTS we used our instructors callsign on our first solo and were allocated our own number after that. In my case this caused a minor incident as another instructor played a funny on me as I lined up causing a red very to be fired which in my nervousness I could not remember if that meant abort or something else. Fortunately a switched on controller gave me instructions.

ACW

[Sideshow Bob]

I remember walking into Kinloss Ops one day, for a local Maritime Crew Training sortie, to find we'd been allocated the 3-cipher Sierra Zero Sierra; the Captain obviously requested a change before we left (not that Maritime crews are superstitious about these things or anything lol).

[alamo]

I was at both Scampton and Waddington between 1974 and 1979. Each room had a station trigraph which was changed from time to time. Sorties were allocated a two-figure suffix by the ops clerks. On 44R, a certain captain who had a rapport with the clerks invariably persuaded them to allocate him “69”.

At this time, rangers going west were allocated a RAFAIR callsign whilst those going east were allocated a five letter callsign beginning with M.

I am uncertain about the Round the World pushes which were just fizzling out.

[Avtur]

51 Sqn Nimrods used "Vulcan 51" for non-operational sorties.

[Four Turbo]

OK. Whilst we are talking callsigns can anybody explain why we got 'Sierra' AND 'Zero'. Caused endless confusion when we used 'Sierra' for Standards. So 'Sierra Zero Four' could come back as anything! (Solved by changing to 'Tango). Anybody else had similar problems?

[oldmansquipper]

I was acting as station DI staff at laughing Laarbruch during ‘lion heart’ and listening to the sectors checking in prior to the survival launch. Went something like this CoC “Gold formation check in?” Reply “Gold 1 affirm, Gold 2, affirm, Gold 3....” etc etc

it came to one of the Buccaneer Sqns in Copper sector it was “Copper formation check in?” It became “Copper 1, allo, Copper 2, Allo Allo, Copper 3 Allo, Allo, Allo! ...

oh how we laughed...🤣

[MPN11]

VERY typical Bucc force! And a fine bunch too.

[Doctor Cruces]

I blame aged memory cell, or perhaps the system changed?

My last live controlling was in 1983 ;)
When I was at Leeming in the early days of my career (1976) all of the squadrons used the Trigraph as standard, but each one was also assigned a single letter to use when only local flying, ie with Leeming (Tower, Approach etc) SO, a trigraph of LMG27 could quite easily become Yankee 27 if only local flying. (Instructor in command, odd number, student solo even number IIRC). Perhaps your experience is a similar system. The single letter was permanent when I was there and didn't change with the trigraph. We had lots of them and I can't remember who was who but we had RFS with JPs, METS with Jetstreams, RNEFTS with Bulldogs, AEF with Chipmunks, CFS with Bulldogs and another bunch I can't remember with JPs as well, all with their own single letter so we knew who was who. We had so many aircraft we had to institute a phased flying program because we couldn't get them all on the ASP at once.

[Fortissimo]

The 3-digit suffix for students in the FTS system changed with course progress, as HP pointed out. It was simple but very effective as the first number immediately told you what level of student experience, or competence at (eg) IF, you were dealing with as a QFI or ATCO. 'LOP826' would have been a student from Linton who was flying solo but had not yet passed the Spin/Aeros Check, and 'LOP526' would have them (ISTR) through Basic Handling Test. In practical terms, it meant you could make allowances for unpredictable behaviour in the circuit, especially if it was busy, given that one of the newbies would occasionally throw a circuit so wide it qualified as a navex or perhaps decide to call finals when downwind, just to keep people guessing.

The only time I heard a callsign go badly wrong was on the way to Akrotiri, having bounced off the tanker a couple of times and beaten our way through France, and then the initial contact with Rome . Our formation leader called, in his best fake Italian accent, "Eh! Roma Control, Roma Control..." but then unfortunately followed it with "Uniform 3 Charlie Chequers 1, 2 and 3, FL320" in perfect Epping Forest. The silence was deafening. Several other calls were ignored before we were told to 'Standby', and all subsequent requests for level, heading etc were declined until we got handed on to the next sector. I don't think he tried speaking Italian again.

[Boeing Jet]

Some interesting replies thanks, regarding the B-52's & Vulcan call signs whilst on operations around the world. The RAF call sign system seemed more complex than the USAF from what I have been reading here. Have occasionally heard a trigraph used by the RAF when they are flying over the UK.

When an 4 x Vulcan Scramble was launched eg Waddington Open Days 1970's 1980's did they use trigraph or was it something else?

Thanks

Boeing Jet

[Pontius Navigator]

Some interesting replies thanks, regarding the B-52's & Vulcan call signs whilst on operations around the world. The RAF call sign system seemed more complex than the USAF from what I have been reading here. Have occasionally heard a trigraph used by the RAF when they are flying over the UK.

When an 4 x Vulcan Scramble was launched eg Waddington Open Days 1970's 1980's did they use trigraph or was it something else?

Thanks

Boeing Jet
Trigraphs. The scramble was not a formation thing, more same way same day. They would all have had the same telegraph but the scramble order woukd probably have been addressed to Waddington Combine. As for the numbers, it was just two as there were only 20 odd aircraft on a station.

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[Pontius Navigator]

I remember walking into Kinloss Ops one day, for a local Maritime Crew Training sortie, to find we'd been allocated the 3-cipher Sierra Zero Sierra; the Captain obviously requested a change before we left (not that Maritime crews are superstitious about these things or anything lol).
I think it was a 4 character callsign. We used the same code book as the navy but in some exercises they encrypted that too. Ark on one exercise had callsign slant slant zero slant //0/ The abbreviation was slant slant.

The callsign book was AMSH1707.

[Sideshow Bob]

I think it was a 4 character callsign. We used the same code book as the navy but in some exercises they encrypted that too. Ark on one exercise had callsign slant slant zero slant //0/ The abbreviation was slant slant.
not in the 2000's , it was 3 characters generated at Northwood.

[Pontius Navigator]

not in the 2000's , it was 3 characters generated at Northwood.
Yes, I think there was a radical change in callsigns in the late 90s. I know the Jag OCU used Tartan as a formation callsign in the 80s. At Coningsby in the 90s we were asked to register sqn and station callsigns. My boss, OC Ops was cheeky and registered Typhoon as we were slated to have the Typhoon OCU. He was surprised when it was approved.

I think one of 29s was Triplex.

[taxydual]

One of 25 Sqn's (Tornado F3's) allocated formation callsigns, in the 80's, was 'TIMID'. They didn't use it.

[Boeing Jet]

Would you have changed call signs if flying abroad and doing a nightstop somewhere?

[Pontius Navigator]

Would you have changed call signs if flying abroad and doing a nightstop somewhere?
No. Overseas flights were under diplomatic clearance procedures. A particular ranger or exercise, say to Offutt AFB would be allocated a particular 4 digit number prefixed RAFAIR.

There were some oddities though. Suppose a number of aircraft were deployed to Malta for walk Sunspot exercise they would be allocated a block of numbers. While in Malta they would use the appropriate callsign rather than the RAFAIR. In return to UK each aircraft wour revert to its original RAFAIR callsign. The oddity however was if an airframe was replaced.

One case would be a new aircraft coming out using a different RAFAIR callsign group number and the old aircraft using the same number returning to UK. The new aircraft woukd then pick up the original callsign.
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[Pontius Navigator]

If you meant an aircraft diverted to a foreign airfield it would probably retain its previous UK campaign so France for instance would see ABD01 arrive and when recovering to UK are it depart.

[Boeing Jet]

Thanks PN much appreciated.

[andrewn]

Yes, I think there was a radical change in callsigns in the late 90s. I know the Jag OCU used Tartan as a formation callsign in the 80s. At Coningsby in the 90s we were asked to register sqn and station callsigns. My boss, OC Ops was cheeky and registered Typhoon as we were slated to have the Typhoon OCU. He was surprised when it was approved.

I think one of 29s was Triplex.

5 - Carbon, Scorpion
29 - Buzzard, Ransack, Triplex
56 - loads including Warlord, Rambo, Horseman, Lucky
OEU - Apollo

[Wensleydale]

Sqn callsigns were used continuously in support of the No-Fly Zone over the Balkans throughout the 1990s. However, on the morning of the first NATO Air strikes after the fall of Srebrenica, some bright spark in CAOC decided to swap around all of the callsigns to "confuse the enemy". All it succeeded in doing was to confuse the Allies and destroy any situational awareness over the battlefield. No-one had a clue where anyone was and where other friendly assets were - especially when looking for Tankers and other support aircraft with aircrew habitually reverting to their usual callsigns. The situation lasted for a day, and normal service was resumed by next morning. Perhaps the most upset by this was the USAF fighter squadron who discovered in the morning tasking signals that they had been allocated the callsign "Faggot" . There were many reports of raised voices in the corridors of CAOC and other HQs with that one.

[andrewn]

I was WVY170 - so Y170 in the circuit at Woodvale. At Cranwell I started as CWN856, which dropped through 756, 656, 556 then 456 as I progressed through the course. The callsign being N456 at Cranwell/Barkston, but C456 at Coningsby, Waddo etc.

Now was it CWN or CWL? So long ago!

Depends, there was a time in the 80's when the suffix could be one of a few, e.g. CWN, CWJ, CWR, I think - might have been type specific but cant remember now. Then at some point in the 90's they just standardised on CWL.

Same applied to other Training bases, e.g. Church Fenton, Chivenor, Shawbury, Valley, Finningley, etc - multiple variations on trigraph until they standardised on CFN, CHV, SYS, VYT and FYY respectively. Then they simplified things even further by closing most of the training bases :)