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NutLoose
13th Feb 2018, 11:43
click on the poll

https://news.sky.com/story/us-uk-row-over-fate-of-is-beatles-fighters-kotey-and-elsheikh-11248687

charliegolf
13th Feb 2018, 12:44
click on the poll

https://news.sky.com/story/us-uk-row-over-fate-of-is-beatles-fighters-kotey-and-elsheikh-11248687

I didn't vote, but I am in favour of death by lethal (9mm lead) injection without trial even if unlawful'.

CG

nonsense
13th Feb 2018, 12:58
How did they come by their UK citizenship; by birth, by descent, by naturalisation?
I'm not a great fan of cancelling citizenship once granted, particularly where it is acquired by birth or descent or where it is the person's only citizenship.

Given that they are (apparently) currently in custody in Syria, for acts performed in Syria, I would think it is first Syria's call whether to prosecute them before anybody else gets a look-in.

Highway1
13th Feb 2018, 13:19
I agree - they should be tried and found guilty in Syria - after all that is where the individuals decided to go and carry out their crimes.

Nobody forced them to got there.

Sallyann1234
13th Feb 2018, 16:30
However, a Whitehall source said: "The day these barbaric terrorists turned their back on this country in pursuit of an evil agenda of bloodshed and slaughter, they forfeited forever their right to return.
That's all well and good.

But WHY then are all of the others who left here to support ISIS being allowed back into the country to be a permanent burden on our security services?
Travelling to join ISIS should have been a one-way journey.

ORAC
13th Feb 2018, 16:56
You cannot, under international law, revoke the citizenship of someone with no other nationality and render them stateless. You can, however, revoke one nationality if they have another.

One of the two, Korey, was born in London of a Ghanaian father and Greek-Cypriot mother, he therefore also holds the nationality of both parents. The other was born in Sudan of Sudanese parents and moved to the UK with his parents in the 1990s when they claimed asylum. Hence he has Sudanese nationality from both parents.

Hence the UK government, totally legally, revoked both their UK passports and nationality once their activities in Syria became known.

Therefore, both under UK and international law, they have no claim to entry to the UK, to claim British citizenship or to the protection of the British courts. Equally, under UK law, British nationality having been revoked cannot be restored or reacquired.

Saintsman
13th Feb 2018, 17:09
I didn't vote, but I am in favour of death by lethal (9mm lead) injection without trial even if unlawful'.

CG

The trouble with that is its over far too quickly. Even if it costs us, I'd rather they were locked up then kneecapped or something similar that was going to cause them permanent pain for the rest of their lives.

No virgins for them.

ethicalconundrum
13th Feb 2018, 17:29
Over 12,000 votes now, and the 'killed without trial' is leading with 40% of the total. Understandable yet a bit troubling. If the state(any state/govt) is going to go into the business of killing without trials, we have entered a dangerous global arena. This kind of stuff goes all the way back to ancient Rome, where people were proscribed and killed without any kind of trial. Basically, it is one of the major themes that led to the decline of the Roman empire. Tread cautiously.

Golf-Sierra
13th Feb 2018, 17:37
Over 12,000 votes now, and the 'killed without trial' is leading with 40% of the total. Understandable yet a bit troubling. If the state(any state/govt) is going to go into the business of killing without trials, we have entered a dangerous global arena. This kind of stuff goes all the way back to ancient Rome, where people were proscribed and killed without any kind of trial. Basically, it is one of the major themes that led to the decline of the Roman empire. Tread cautiously.

Why give the benefit of a trial to someone who is known to be guilty?


ps. that was sarcasm.

NutLoose
13th Feb 2018, 18:05
Yep, that's why I thought it was an interesting result, the majority wishing to see them topped, personally I would love to see them suffer the fate of some of their victims.

ethicalconundrum
13th Feb 2018, 18:22
I really have no beef with the various punishments side of the equation, but would just like to see it go through a trial by some rules, with an advocate for the accused, and an open hearing in a public forum(fora?). Once that's out of the way, I don't really care how the punishment is meted out.

BTW, should anyone get the idea that as an American I'm in favor of our drone attacks in the ME, I am strongly against that as well. If we are at war, then lets get it over with, and designate some state actor as the oppo. If we are not at war, then stop flying drones into cars/trucks/buildings from 8000 miles away. It is nearly the same as what ISIS is being accused of, except sponsored by upper echelons of the US govt.

MG23
13th Feb 2018, 18:37
It's not really hard to prove treason when someone goes and joins an armed group that is opposed to the UK. Civil trials would just be another gravy-train for the lawyer class.

Give 'em a military court to present their case, and get it over with ASAP.

ethicalconundrum
13th Feb 2018, 18:54
Why would there be a lawsuit or tort? I don't care where a criminal trial is held, just that it be public, with a defender advocate, rules of order, procedure, witness, evidence, etc. Why would anyone want to sue an alleged terrorist/freedom fighter/jihadist? I don't think they have much money, but I could be wrong.

MG23
13th Feb 2018, 19:11
I don't care where a criminal trial is held, just that it be public, with a defender advocate, rules of order, procedure, witness, evidence, etc.

And the lawyer class will drag it out for years, at the taxpayers' expense.

ethicalconundrum
13th Feb 2018, 20:28
And the lawyer class will drag it out for years, at the taxpayers' expense.

Yep, sorry. But the alternative is worse. Read up on Sulla Empire. He got mad at some senators, and legates, and magistrates. Started tossing them off the Tarpian cliffs. Bad mojo. If that's not enough, there is the history of Nero, last of the Claudian dynasty. He was a real piece of work.

Extra-judicial punishment is not the answer. I won't even go to the Nazi well, it's just too obvious.

KelvinD
13th Feb 2018, 22:23
I am not sure the offence of treason still exists in the UK.
Re the earlier post opting for trail in Syria, I believe they are being held in Turkey and I can't see Turkey handing them over to Syria (if indeed they are being held in Turkey).

Highway1
13th Feb 2018, 22:36
Yep, that's why I thought it was an interesting result, the majority wishing to see them topped, personally I would love to see them suffer the fate of some of their victims.

I dont think any civilized country would do to them what they did to their victims

Tankertrashnav
13th Feb 2018, 23:15
A poll resulted in this country leaving the EU (or will do)

A poll resulted in Trump becoming President of the USA

And we are still holding polls on important matters?

Bloody hell!

treadigraph
14th Feb 2018, 07:18
I am not sure the offence of treason still exists in the UK.

It does; it's no longer a capital office but being found guilty may result in a whole life tariff.

MG23
14th Feb 2018, 13:51
If it's that easy, give 'em a fair trial.

Which part of 'the lawyer class will drag it out for years at taxpayers expense' is proving hard to understand?

In most of the West, the legal system has been weaponized to protect criminals from their victims, while making staggering amounts of money for the lawyer class.

It's one of the things which differentiate "them" from "us".

What differentiates them from 'us' is that they want to win, and 'we' want to lose nobly. If this was WWII, you'd be arguing that we shouldn't execute Nazi spies because maybe they had a bad childhood or something.

MG23
14th Feb 2018, 13:53
And we are still holding polls on important matters?

The left really do hate democracy, don't they?