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John_Reid
12th Feb 2018, 12:01
The Masons are calling foul and saying enough is enough by taking out full page adverts in newspapers. They are saying they are discriminated against. Well that maybe so, however they can go a long way towards helping their craft (witch craft?) by:

1/ Lifting the vale of secrecy. It's all very well opening up the Lodges to the public, when not in session. How about letting the public into lodge workings. Anyone can walk into a church or a mosque (except the 2 big mosques in KSA) during worship. Not so into a lodge. Why?

2/ Publish the names of members. They wont, so that is a cause of concern for me also. Some admit being a lodge member and indeed are proud of that fact.

Since the news about lodges at Westminster (what a surprise) two prominent masons have been interviewed on BBC local radio. They were on about the charity work they do and basically what great people they are. All well and good. What disappointed me was they didn't have the courage of their convictions to allow phone calls, on what was essentially a phone in program.

VP959
12th Feb 2018, 12:26
The thing that gets me about Freemasonry is the massive disparity between the official image that they try to put across, and the reality for anyone who has fallen foul of the actions of some of their members.

There is, without a shadow of doubt, a "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours" culture within Freemasonry, that works to give them an advantage over others, or, in my case (from many years ago) to disadvantage someone who is not a Mason.

Sadly, Freemasonry strenuously denies this happens, when there are just far too many people who have experienced it first hand for any denial to be taken seriously.

In my case, I transferred from one research establishment to another in the late 70's, having answered an internal advert for the post, been interviewed etc, before being offered the transfer. The job was associated with anti-submarine warfare, and was quite specific, within my field and good match for both my qualifications and interests. When I moved house and took up the new post, instead of working in the lab, which I'd been shown around during the interview, I was given a stack of work on analysing films, technician work really. I asked when I was going to be able to start the job that I'd been accepted for, and told several different reasons why it wouldn't be that week/month or whatever. Eventually, after about two months, I went to see the head of the lab to ask what was going on. He was pretty abrupt, told me to do the work I'd been given and if I didn't like it, then that was tough. His degree of animosity and anger seemed really odd, so I started asking around. It turned out that the head of the lab had promised the job that I'd transferred to, to the son of a more senior member of his lodge. He had been hoping that there would be no internal applicants for the post, so when it was externally advertised he could arrange to swing the interview in favour of his lodge brothers son.

The plan backfired when I applied for a transfer, and on the interview board of three he wasn't able to stop the other two members making a recommendation that I be offered the job. He then gave me a stack of pretty pointless menial work in the hope that I'd get fed up and leave, so he could have another go an honouring the promise he'd made.

It took me around six months to get all this uncovered, and when I confronted him, saying I knew what he'd been up to, he nearly blew a fuse, giving me a long lecture about the importance of loyalty and honouring promises. The bloke really hadn't thought he'd done anything wrong at all; for him, his loyalty to his lodge brothers superseded his loyalty to his employer. I doubt this is the only time something like this has happened, either, it seems a fairly common story.

It may well be that Freemasonry itself is not to blame for lodge members behaving like this, but it does provide a atmosphere within which this type of culture can flourish, perhaps outside the formal activities of the lodge.

PingDit
12th Feb 2018, 12:33
OP: I can understand why they're doing it. People do tend to discriminate when they aren't told all of the inner workings of such groups. People believe it's a secret society, which its not. It's a society with secrets. If people are so curious about the inner workings, why not buy one of the many books available on the subject to better educate themselves?

Why should their names be published? So they can be ridiculed by others who also don't know what they're talking about?

It seems to me that your only concern is that there are people with values that you have yet to be introduced to.

Dan Dare
12th Feb 2018, 12:44
I heard that programme while driving and remember doing a quick mental calc:

Charitable donations/number of masons = tiny number (I think about £15 per member per year)

I concluded that charity is far from their main purpose.

I must also say, your honour, that I have no knowledge of the masons, no prejudice against them, nothing particularly against community groups - even secret ones. One has to be careful and cautious about such things...

G-CPTN
12th Feb 2018, 13:17
My grandfather was a 'prominent' mason and my father was a mason - but I was never approached.
A couple of decades ago I 'crossed' a mason, and, subsequently became the unwelcome object of pernicious activity, with me ending up in court on trumped-up charges with suspect 'witnesses'.

When he retired, the village bobby confessed that the persecution had been directed by the sergeant despite the constable's 'defence' of me.

sitigeltfel
12th Feb 2018, 13:18
Cronyism, favouritism, back scratching? Look no further.

The Red Princes (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/what-labour-s-red-princes-tell-us-about-britain)

Since that article was published, Carl Sergeants son Jack has "inherited" his fathers seat for Labour.

(New Statesman is a Left leaning publication)

Blacksheep
12th Feb 2018, 13:22
A close friend of mine was a Freemason for decades. On retirement he and his wife bought a shop in a Hampshire village, with a sub-post office. My friend was to run the post office and his wife the shop. Soon after settling back in UK his wife died leaving him in a hard place. He hired a manager for the shop but wasn't making enough profit to keep things together. He had written to the local Lodge to announce his presence in their locality but was ignored. He knew by their names some of the lodge members who came into his sub-post office and gave them the appropriate Masonic distress signs to no effect. In the end he sold the post office and moved north where his remaining savings went further and his cost of living was lower. It seems that in some lodges, charity doesn't even begin at home.

cargosales
12th Feb 2018, 17:29
The thing that gets me about Freemasonry is the massive disparity between the official image that they try to put across, and the reality for anyone who has fallen foul of the actions of some of their members.

...

Sadly, Freemasonry strenuously denies this happens, when there are just far too many people who have experienced it first hand for any denial to be taken seriously.
...


I couldn't agree more and my sympathies about what you went through :uhoh:

Many years ago my business went bust and I was almost bankrupted thanks to two charming, delightful and good church-attending Christians who were business partners. But who 'just happened' to be Masons and had asked me to become one too (I have a distinctive middle name).

When I politely declined, that was it .... any pretence of being 'good Christians' went out of the window and they showed their true colours :*

Shame on the Masons for 'hijacking' a religion to hide behind and pretending to be good god-fearing christian people doing good charitable work .. I can't think of any other group that does anything like that in modern times.

Oh, hang on, maybe I can. They're about 4,000 miles away but .... :ouch:

Pontius Navigator
12th Feb 2018, 17:45
I know of masonry only from a very good friend and from members if my club.

The friend was invited, thought it a bit of fun and came back from his white gloved, bare chested, rolled up trouser initiation a changed man. He is now well indoctrinated in its mysteries.

The club members however are more open possibly for a reason. I think you need to apply or make it clear you are interested so they are effectively trawling. One is a member of several Lodges. They talk of oractice sessions learning their lines etc. Almost like overgrown school boys.

I'd rather have a pint in the pub.

Loose rivets
12th Feb 2018, 19:00
Another subject close to my heart. A boss of mine in the 50's was an odd kind of fellow. A bit like a gay Charlie Chaplin. We got to see his little apron with thingies hanging on it and be regaled at how fine it was to be a member.

He used to tell us boys that they all did good work, and he certainly seemed a harmless sort of chap. The old traditional jeweller next door was also a member of the same lodge. He seemed decent enough too. That was my introduction to freemasonry.

In what seems another lifetime, I was at my Essex home when I heard people cutting at the copse at the bottom of the garden. There was almost never anyone in the 2 plus acre garden and I went down to have a look. All I said was, Hey, what are you doing? I was then set-upon by someone that turned out to be a local builder. As he raced at me I slipped on the bank of a little brook and ended up with him sitting on me with his fingers more or less in my eyes. All those years of judo, and I was out in one. Sooooo frustrating. No ref to object. Then his father pulled on one arm and started kicking me in the kidney region - he back off a little when my nine year old son called to them to calm down. Bless him.

While I was on a 999 call I saw the younger man waving a machete at the Rivetess. What possessed her to go out there I don't know, but let's say, what I did next was a bit of an over-reaction.

It was a sustained and witnessed assault. The qualifications for prosecution.

I was told I'd never get them to court. A year later, a year of arguments and swapping solicitors, three lots of police 'investigations' and the most bewildering buckling of one solicitor who had started to make a complaint about police inaction. When he phoned me to say he was pulling out, his formally stern voice was weak and trembling.

After many, many local assaults - some of them quite serious, to this day, he has never been prosecuted.



The other frustrating episode was when I was a police witness against a retired professional man who'd bought himself a BMW and been involved in the most diabolical piece of dangerous driving it would be possible to imagine. After several overtakes on a B road - all cars that were bunched together - he got away with that but then came to my row. In disbelief I saw this thing flash by heading for a blind bend. There was one car ahead of me. As he passed me, a Shell fuel tanker appeared on the bend. The driver did a magnificent job of braking, but 20 tonnes of fuel takes a lot of stopping, especially when going down hill. Suspension shackles snapped on the lorry as boiling white rubber steam jetted from all the forward wheels. Everything came to a standstill. Then the BMW zoomed off.

I was in a manual shift XJ6. My blood was up. 4 headlights on and just about all the gusto I dared let loose and he was still pulling away. I caught him at the small town's crossroads and left him in no doubt he was going to stop.

When he opened his window, he was as cool as James Bond. His SIL sat there with eyes staring in shock.

Long story short.

Shell and about 15 witnesses appeared in a magistrate's court. Two magistrates, one a farmer and my mum's old boss, were presiding. I was the chief witness for the prosecution that seemed so lacklustre that I felt I wanted to jump out of the box and take over. The defence QC made the mistake of wading into me about my ability to see with my peripheral vision. My answer was highly technical a delivered with a determination that surprised even me. He buckled, and then fawned over my 'logical mind'. It didn't matter. The case was decided long before.

The gentleman farmer suddenly stood up and said that he had to go for tea. 'I'm sure my colleague will manage etc.' The man was a tiny dormouse, who delivered the sentence that bought no reaction from a senior police officer who just put his paperwork together as though he was just there to show a uniform.

Guilty of dangerous driving - fined ?? not much, and pause for the big one. No, he kept his licence.

The 'professional man' bowed to the dormouse and left a stunned-silent courtroom.


It got back to me just what had happened, but I really didn't need to have it confirmed. I'm still angry, but I've learned now that I won't change the world.

galaxy flyer
12th Feb 2018, 19:16
Templars Live!

GF

artschool
12th Feb 2018, 19:31
all this stuff is just myth and legend.

its a mens dining club.

Slow Biker
12th Feb 2018, 21:45
Many years ago I was 'approached'. All the good deeds were explained. including that should anything 'happen' to me, my family would be looked after. Not really interested and facetiously I remarked it sounded cheaper than life insurance. Not approached again.

chevvron
12th Feb 2018, 22:00
I lost count of the number of jobs I didn't get in NATS because I didn't return handshakes 'properly' at the interview.

vapilot2004
12th Feb 2018, 22:57
An uncle and grandfather were Masons, with grandpap belonging to the oldest lodge in the nation. While patronage among members was encouraged, the level of control was well short of, say the Mormon church or other religious organizations here in the states.

However, I do suppose any group of organized individuals can certainly play havoc with even the most democratic of societies, and with strong loyalties, things could easily get ugly if common decency or the rule of law are ignored.

racedo
12th Feb 2018, 23:35
Kenneth Noye................ cop killer but it was ok as cop not a mason and the way certain elements in the police did his bidding gives you an idea of some of what is wrong.

As a Catholic, Masons would not interest me but have met some who believe in the charitable bit but also met a lot who saw it as a way of getting one foot up the ladder at someone else's expense.

Relative was married to one 30 plus years ago, struggling in his profesion he got invited to join, sadly relative met an untimely death in an RTA but hubby being on the square never really struggled after becoming a mason.

artschool
12th Feb 2018, 23:46
if being a mason is so great why doesn't everyone join?

John_Reid
13th Feb 2018, 02:19
Art.
Everyone a Mason? Too many black balls for that.
"all this stuff is just myth and legend. its a mens dining club"
Bit more sinister than that, please be assured.

As for advancement, certain countries, it's no lodge, no business.

In the recent past we are reliably informed, the PM Cameron and his side kick the snake oil selling chancellor, slinked off the a Bilderberg meet. An insidious group if ever there was.

VP959
13th Feb 2018, 07:36
if being a mason is so great why doesn't everyone join?

Because you have to be invited, normally. Unless things have changed, they do not normally allow people to put themselves forward for membership.

Some will never get an invite, for a host of reasons. Being catholic is one of them. The selection process for choosing who to invite makes the membership a pretty selective group of society, mostly white, mostly businessmen or people in a position of influence or responsibility.

Krystal n chips
13th Feb 2018, 11:23
Because you have to be invited, normally. Unless things have changed, they do not normally allow people to put themselves forward for membership.

Some will never get an invite, for a host of reasons. Being catholic is one of them. The selection process for choosing who to invite makes the membership a pretty selective group of society, mostly white, mostly businessmen or people in a position of influence or responsibility.

Not always.

About 9 years ago, one was invited to become one, by a master mason no less. The offer was garnished with the allure of "silver service dining ".....alas, as I kindly informed him, one is a Guardian reader and far from disposed towards silver service dining, and then mentioned ones opinion of masons.....this ended the conversation. He was also a BS merchant who liked to inform the world as to his gliding experience ....a grand total of 50 hrs !.....thus came the day when one dropped a few names in from Marham and mentioned ones own hours were around 900.....we never really spoke much after that.

In more recent times, one was amused, and delighted, to see a "terribly important person" ( think a certain Home Guard Capt here ) bedecked in the regalia on one of my heritage railway stations, he being part of the "management ". I always thought this was not permitted, however, there he was in all his finery, thus one, as reverent as always, commented "Nice Bling sunshine ! " .....temperature seemed to drop to about -50C at this point.

The serious bit is that we've all encountered the influences and the protection shown to other members. No matter how much denial is forthcoming in their defence.

Loose rivets
13th Feb 2018, 12:10
All this, and we see frightened and distraught mothers prosecuted for perverting the course of justice with a simple lie, while certain people are clearly above the law.

Years later when my little son was 6'2" and working in a pub, he mentioned the matey bond between one of the investigating officers and my assailants.

Wyler
13th Feb 2018, 12:14
My wife's Uncle is very high up in his Lodge and has just been to the Palace of Westminster for another promotion. He is also a 'big wheel' in his local church. He even wears religious garb at services.
As a Catholic, and a divorcee, he has never really treated me with anything but the minimum of courtesy.
I went to their 40th Wedding Anniversary and the guest list was full of bankers and Coppers.
Say no more.
A bunch of bigots and back-scratchers who hide behind some kind of religious/charitable smoke screen.
Unfortunately, they have some very very high level patronage and that also makes them dangerous.

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Feb 2018, 12:29
if being a mason is so great why doesn't everyone join?
'Cos you have to believe in a magic sky fairy. They don't care which one, but if you don't believe in any at all you don't qualify.

Ex Cargo Clown
13th Feb 2018, 12:47
Masons, pah. Get yourself a Roma girlfriend, I've got 24/7 bodyguard protecton, and get plenty of other benefits.

WilliumMate
13th Feb 2018, 12:48
I've got 24/7 bodyguard protecton

Her sisters?

:E

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Feb 2018, 18:20
Her sisters?
The young Roma girl babysitter we once had kept snakes. And then left to move to Canada as she couldn't get the weapons training she wanted in the UK.

Tankertrashnav
13th Feb 2018, 18:25
As a Catholic, and a divorcee, he has never really treated me with anything but the minimum of courtesy.

I think that says more about your uncle as a person than as a Freemason. I get really sick of putting people right when they say that Freemasons don't accept Catholics. This may be a misconception dating from when the Roman Catholic Church forbade its members from becoming Freemasons, not the other way around, and in fact although I am a bit rusty regarding the current policy, I think it is likely that the church is still not keen on members joining the craft.

In my own case I was welcomed into our lodge, as was another Catholic, an Italian, who oddly was also a (stone) mason! We also had Jews, and protestants of all types as well, The only ones who could not join were those who could not profess belief in what Gertrude the Wombat rather tiresomely insists on referring to a magic sky fairy. That's another JB cliche which has been flogged to death, along with "huggy fluffy!

TTN - bigot and backscratcher (apparently)

PDR1
13th Feb 2018, 19:43
Clearly hit something of a raw nerve - perhaps you might discuss it with the great architect...


TTN - bigot and backscratcher (apparently)

Well they do say that the first step is recognising you have a problem...

:E

PDR

Um... lifting...
13th Feb 2018, 19:52
From what I have read, the Masons have apparently never had a prohibition on Catholics.

The reverse can not be said, however. Up until 1983, excommunication. Since 1983 it gets more complicated, depending upon what country you're in, who's the bishop, whether you are or aren't involved in the church, level of involvement with Freemasonry, and on and on and on.

Regardless, the Catholic Church pretty clearly doesn't think the Masons are merely a dining and social club.

Dan_Brown
13th Feb 2018, 20:47
I did wonder where was TTN, when you needed him. To my profund disappointment, he only managed to point out a bit of trivia. Interesting but useless information. I thought he was really going to tear us all apart there for moment. You can't defend the indefenceable. Any other breathen on board to refute any of the posts on this thread?

cargosales
13th Feb 2018, 22:24
Regardless, the Catholic Church pretty clearly doesn't think the Masons are merely a dining and social club.

For once I agree with the Catholics, although maybe for different reasons...

A cynic might wonder if they found there was simply too much competition for small boys from an establishment seemingly immune to prosecution and easily able to hang out to dry any of the opposition found to be transgressing or trespassing on others' turf (or kids homes) :uhoh: :yuk: etc etc.

I couldn't possibly say if that was true or not but ....

Tankertrashnav
14th Feb 2018, 00:00
Dan Brown, I rather thought that signing off as a bigot and backscratcher indicated what I felt about that general description. Maybe the irony was lost on some

But lets take another example

Membership lists of the Royal Air Force Club are not available to the general public (ie they are "secret").

I have absolutely no doubt that business deals have been carried out in those rooms at the Club set aside for meetings (by definition these deals would exclude non members)

Does that make the RAF Club a secret society whose members are intent on mutual backscratching? No of course not - but it obviously does go on on occasion. Same could be said of many Masonic lodges.

Regardless, the Catholic Church pretty clearly doesn't think the Masons are merely a dining and social club.

With regard to the Catholic Church's attitude to Freemasonry, there can be little doubt there are, or at least have been, some very sinister branches of Freemasonry in both Italy and Spain, both predominantly Catholic countries and this may well have led to the Church's attitude to Freemasonry in those countries. Upon joining, English Freemasons are advised on which Masonic lodges they may visit or associate with and which they must avoid Many to be avoided are in those countries mentioned, but nearer to home no Freemason is permitted to join or attend meetings of the Orange Order. The fact that this last refers to its members as masons has definitely led to confusion, with some people conflating the two organisations. Nothing could be further than the truth. English Freemasonry has nothing to do with the sectarian organisation known as the Orange Order.

Most of the critical remarks made on here have either been unsupported assertions or anecdotal evidence - absolutely nothing concrete. I could go on but it would get tedious. In any case I am well used to "preaching" to people whose minds are made up and don't want to be confused with facts.

The word "bigots" springs to mind!

VP959
14th Feb 2018, 07:37
Most of the critical remarks made on here have either been unsupported assertions or anecdotal evidence - absolutely nothing concrete.

I can assure you that I had evidence that the actions of my old head of lab were directly related to him being a Mason and trying to honour a promise he'd made to a fellow Mason. When I finally confronted him with what I had been told he admitted it, giving me a lecture about loyalty that was clear confirmation that he felt greater loyalty to his brother Masons than he did to his employer. He saw nothing at all wrong in what he'd done at all.

I'm not saying that Freemasonry itself is the cause of his behaviour, but it does provide an environment where behaviour like this can flourish. I'm sure other clubs may well occasionally have members who use them for their mutual advantage, too, but Freemasonry is both more widespread, and has vows that inherently bind it's members together, in a way that few other organisations do.

I've no idea what efforts the organisation as a whole takes to tackle cronyism and the like, as that also seems secret. There is a general view that the organisation turns a blind eye to the way SOME masons behave, though, and that may well be interpreted by some as it being condoned.

Personally, the actions of one Mason set my career back for a couple of years, something that was officially noted by the chairman of the promotion board I eventually appeared before. He wrote a letter to my head of lab asking why I'd not been put forward to the board earlier. All that did was get me in more hot water as when the bloke received the letter he came and had a rant at me for making him appear incompetent............

PDR1
14th Feb 2018, 07:39
But lets take another example

Membership lists of the Royal Air Force Club are not available to the general public (ie they are "secret").

I have absolutely no doubt that business deals have been carried out in those rooms at the Club set aside for meetings (by definition these deals would exclude non members)


I have been to business meetings in an RAF Club meeting room, and I am not a member - I was invited as a guest. So your premise falls down at the first challenge.

PDR

bnt
14th Feb 2018, 08:53
Because you have to be invited, normally. Unless things have changed, they do not normally allow people to put themselves forward for membership.
Here in Ireland, the Grand Lodge (http://freemason.ie/about-freemasonry/) says:
Many people assume that to become a Freemason, one must be invited to join. This is not correct. In fact, while members might encourage their friends to join, they do not typically recruit or invite candidates for membership.

A person who is interested in joining is encouraged to simply ask a member. Even if you don’t know a member and wish to join, email us here and a member of Grand Lodge Staff will be happy to deal with your enquiry.Not that I'll be joining any time soon, since I crash head first in to rule #3 in their Laws & Constitution (http://freemason.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/MASONIC-laws-and-constitutions-2011.pdf):
The first condition of admission into, and membership of, the Order is a belief in the Supreme Being. This is essential and admits of no compromise.i.e. "stupid atheists" (their words (http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artoct02/stupid_atheist.htm)) need not apply.

Gault
14th Feb 2018, 09:16
It's a secret club, it can produce any sort of PR bollox it wants too, how can you prove it stands by what it proclaims to do and be?....you can't.
I know a 2 Masons (perhaps more but they havn't de-cloaked), I would describe the character of both of them as controlling and mendacious.

Pontius Navigator
14th Feb 2018, 09:39
I have been to business meetings in an RAF Club meeting room, and I am not a member - I was invited as a guest. So your premise falls down at the first challenge.

PDR

Indeed in the 60s, when lunchtime drinking was the norm, the bar used to be packed with members and earwigging journalists. Chapman Pincher was the primary source of information and the Daily Express the first paper to be read of a morning.

Tankertrashnav
14th Feb 2018, 10:47
I resign

Not from Freemasonry (although in fact I am not an active member and not currently member if a lodge) but from the thread. Banging your head against a brick wall loses its attraction after a while. Meanwhile brother Masons will continue to dress up and perform rather silly rituals just for the fun of it, enjoy convivial meals with a few drinks afterwards, and carry out a lot of charitable works (including £1.3 million donated to air ambulances in the last 10 years). Not a lot different from being in the armed forces really (funny uniforms, symbolic swords, parades and mess nights) but with rather more charity work.

Must get my apron out of the cupboard and check the moths haven't been at it ;)

Worshipful brother TTN

Krystal n chips
14th Feb 2018, 11:47
You keep comparing the armed forces to the Masons but the armed forces is a job. You get paid for it.

I am genuinely interested in what makes people want to go through any of the dressing up etc? Giving to Charity is a good thing but why the need for the secrecy and funny handshakes?

Same goes for Rotary clubs? What are they and what is the point?

In one sense, there is a strong correlation between the military and the masons. The former have long had cadres that are mendacious controlling and duplicitous along with supporting each other when required.

For civilians, the attraction ( in addition to the above traits ) seems to be about social standing and "status". Certainly the ones I am currently aware of are very much controlling, or they try to be, and promote a public faÁade which is always courteous to cover this up.

The beauty of the one I mentioned is, that, he's so obsessed with himself and his "importance " ( along with being basically thick ) he presents endless opportunities to take the proverbial out of being incapable of understanding people are doing so.

Our encounters can be quite entertaining really.....for me..... and others within earshot given he's universally detested.

I can think of one MRO however, who, in effect were presented with an almost wide open opportunity to make a lot of money. Lets just say the "management " were more concerned with social standing and entertaining than maintaining aircraft and guess what happened to the MRO as a result.

Dan_Brown
14th Feb 2018, 11:49
Well tanker, thanks for putting your head adove the pulpit. It's always better to try and fail, than not try at all. :}

PDR1
14th Feb 2018, 11:56
Not that I'll be joining any time soon, since I crash head first in to rule #3 in their Laws & Constitution (http://freemason.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/MASONIC-laws-and-constitutions-2011.pdf):
The first condition of admission into, and membership of, the Order is a belief in the Supreme Being. This is essential and admits of no compromise.


I have no problem with their rule#3 provided that they are happy to accept that the Supreme Being is me (or more probably my wife)

PDR

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Feb 2018, 12:16
Does that make the RAF Club a secret society ...
Not very. If you walk in off the street as a non-member the conversation goes like this:

"I'm here for the such-and-such dinner."
"It's in the such-and-such room, do you know your way?"
"Yes."
"Fine, off you go then."

pulse1
14th Feb 2018, 12:18
Surely the main thing which distinguishes the members of any organisation are the nature of the vows that they have to make in order to join and the seriousness with which they make and keep them. The vows one makes to join the military, to Queen and Country, are extremely serious, and are enforceable by law. The Masonic vows are imposed superstitiously under threat of something horrible happening to you should one break them. Presumably, Lodges are a bit like churches in that some take all that more seriously than others.

Some years ago the Churchwarden of my local Anglican church was a Mason. The vicar tried to persuade him in vain to give up Masonry. As far as I know he was an excellent Warden and supported the Vicar wholeheartedly but remained a Mason. When the vicar left to go to pastures new, his replacement insisted that the Warden had to make a choice, Church or Masonry. He chose the latter and left the church.

VP959
14th Feb 2018, 12:33
I have no problem accepting that many Masons are honest and upright citizens, who contribute to charitable works and never take advantage of their membership to either give themselves an advantage or to disadvantage someone who is not a member.

I do have a problem with the irrefutable fact that SOME Masons don't behave like this, and use their membership of the organisation in order to further their own aims, and some put their loyalty to fellow Masons above their loyalty to their employer, even when that employer is the Crown. It seems that this is an issue that the main organisation that runs Freemasonry in the UK is either unable to, or has little interest in, bring under control or stamp out. If we heard a bit more about Masons that had been thrown out for using their membership as a way to further their own interests then perhaps the organisation as a whole might improve it's public image a bit.

Krystal n chips
14th Feb 2018, 12:36
KnC, you make an interesting point.

Since I lump all these clubs & religions basically in the same pile, I would have no problem in treating any of them the same. If I see a bishop in his robes, a rabbi or a muslim cleric dressed up I feel exactly the same as when I see a freemason, scientologist or morris dancer. To me they are merely adults in clubs dressing up.

I would suggest all these groups have higher level members that feel they are important and are felt to be important by the other members. There does seem to be some that are held in higher esteem than others however even by non-members.

Would I get away with ridiculing all of them publicly? I doubt it.

So what makes some sacred and others fair game?

There's a significant difference between those who display the sartorial aspect of their respective faiths in public and those who dress to conform within a secretive and insular organisation.

Trust me however when I say the one in particular is more than fair game.....and I'm always happy to indulge myself and oblige.

And you can knock morris dancers of the list. My mates one and it's basically dancing followed by, if not sometimes preceded by......an extended visit to a pub .

VP959
14th Feb 2018, 13:00
And you are right about morris dancers, there used to be a competition in the small village in Yorkshire where I grew up. The real ale sales went through the roof that weekend. Not as much as the annual Harley Davidson rally though.

I worked alongside a chap that was a Morris Dancer. During the summer he'd invariably come into work on a Monday morning with a massive hangover. The other "feature" of Morris Dancers is that they seemed to be a bit of a promiscuous lot, if this chap was anything to go by. It wouldn't be at all unusual to hear him complaining about being unable to drink, due to the medication he was taking for one STD or other..............

sitigeltfel
14th Feb 2018, 13:14
The real ale sales went through the roof that weekend. Not as much as the annual Harley Davidson rally though.A local bar and Harley owner has a rally here every year at Pentecost.
He says his booze takings go down that day due to the Police Municipale being just round the corner and tourists being scared off by a tribe of hairy, leather clad bikers.
He is not too worried as the mark up on soft drinks and bottled water is much higher than beer.
In the nine years I have been here I have never heard of any trouble.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18953348_1946996625544732_7450434865664019275_o.jpg?oh=fe0f4 ad476c1473165db20ace9185e1f&oe=5B15D32E

Gault
14th Feb 2018, 13:35
A bit daft being scared of Harley riders these days, most of em are over 50 lawyers, doctors etc or retired old softies

Molemot
14th Feb 2018, 13:36
Mr. Wiggin: ...I see. Well, of course, this is just the sort blinkered philistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. (http://www.montypython.net/sounds/sketches/yeswell.wav)... You sit there on your loathsome spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist. You excrement, (http://www.montypython.net/sounds/sketches/xcrement.wav)... you whining hypocritical toadies (http://www.montypython.net/sounds/sketches/toadies.wav) with your colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding masonic secret handshakes. You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards. Well I wouldn't become a Freemason now if you went down on your lousy stinking knees and begged me.
Client 2: We're sorry you feel that way, but we did want a block of flats, nice though the abattoir is.
Mr. Wiggin: Oh sod the abattoir, that's not important. (He dashes forward and kneels in front of them.) But if any of you could put in a word for me I'd love to be a mason. Masonry opens doors. I'd be very quiet, I was a bit on edge just now but if I were a mason I'd sit at the back and not get in anyone's way.
Client 1: (politely) Thank you.
Mr. Wiggin: ...I've got a second-hand apron.
Client 2: Thank you. (Mr. Wiggin hurries to the door but stops...)
Mr. Wiggin: I nearly got in at Hendon.
Client 1: Thank you.



From Python's "Architect's Sketch"....

Pontius Navigator
14th Feb 2018, 17:13
Same goes for Rotary clubs? What are they and what is the point?
I will rise to the challenge and try and keep it brief.

There are 1.2 million men and women world wide. They actively seek members and people can apply. They support charities and run projects locally and world wide.

As an example they run projects at least one club in the donor country and a club in a receiving country. The latter Rotarians are responsible for delivering the project. The whole, especially financial expenditure, is then monitored by Rotary in Chicago. The funding model has NO OVERHEADS for administration and all monies go to delivery of the project.

It flag ship programme is eradication of Polio.

The point? It brings people with ideas and vision together with others who can deliver the ideal.

racedo
14th Feb 2018, 18:14
But lets take another example

Membership lists of the Royal Air Force Club are not available to the general public (ie they are "secret").

I have absolutely no doubt that business deals have been carried out in those rooms at the Club set aside for meetings (by definition these deals would exclude non members)

Does that make the RAF Club a secret society whose members are intent on mutual backscratching? No of course not - but it obviously does go on on occasion. Same could be said of many Masonic lodges.


Does requirement of membership of RAFC requires one to have served in RAF ?

ImageGear
14th Feb 2018, 18:24
RAF promotion to Air Rank

Is membership a prerequisite? Word out there is that it may very well be. Anyone care to comment?

IG

BehindBlueEyes
14th Feb 2018, 18:31
And Rotary club members don’t have silly, secret codes and don’t have a problem being publicly known as members and as far as I know, have never used their membership to avoid justice.

True story from 30 years ago. Ex wife’s family were from South Wales. Many of the (male) locals in her town were members. Her uncle, who ran a rural hotel, was a chief wizard or whatever they are called. Late one night whilst we were staying in the place, a car came hurtling around a country lane, misjudged the corner, flipped and came to a halt in a shower of sparks on its roof. We all rushed out to the drivers aid but luckily, he was fine - except, once he had been helped out of the car, it was clear he was so p****d, he could hardly walk, let alone drive a car. A decision was made, to my complete puzzlement, that there was no need to call the emergency services, that the driver was fine and least said about it, the better.

Turns out that this scrote was a leading light in the local Masonic community and that the publicity wouldn’t be good for his business. Sorry, but I’m not for aiding and abetting, even a member of my family, someone that was so [email protected] that they could endanger other road users. Only by the grace of god was no one coming the other way.

That’s why I have no time for the Masons.

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Feb 2018, 18:57
And you can knock morris dancers of the list. My mates one and it's basically dancing followed by, if not sometimes preceded by......an extended visit to a pub .
Wot, Morris dances who actually leave the pub to do their dancing?

Much more sensible is one of our local groups who rehearse in the pub garden, no need to leave the pub at all.

parabellum
15th Feb 2018, 05:35
Same goes for Rotary clubs? What are they and what is the point?


And don't think for a minute that if you were a member of Rotary and turned up for an interview, where members of the panel were also Rotary, it wouldn't enhance you chances over non-Rotary members, you can substitute just about any club or organisation's name for 'Rotary', it is human nature to support a fellow member of an organisation. Not a Mason but my late FinL was and a straighter person you would not ever meet. Because they are a society that has secrets they are most often blamed for what is frequently individual failure, it is just too easy, just say, "Funny handshake" and be immediately absolved of all blame when something like a promotion or job application didn't come off. Always make sure you have someone else to blame!;) Don't think I have ever read so much rubbish in one thread of PPRuNe since I joined twenty years ago.

I16
15th Feb 2018, 07:20
In the mid eighties I was just getting to sleep one night when I could hear the distinctive sound of an RX7 [which lived not far from us] coming home from the Pub out near the airport, mighty revs, great downshifts and then that sound as a car leaves the ground and hits something very hard.
We went to have a look, the driver was OK but his tools of trade - maybe a brickie or stonemason were spread out around the smashed up car. Daughter took one look and said the Mason is a Rotarian.

DaveReidUK
15th Feb 2018, 08:13
Don't think I have ever read so much rubbish in one thread of PPRuNe since I joined twenty years ago.

Well this is Jet Blast, after all. :O

But thank you for your anecdotal evidence that there has been at least one honourable Mason, that swings it for me.

Pontius Navigator
15th Feb 2018, 08:24
Parabellum, I visited one Rotary Club. First off, no need for identity cards etc but there is a subtle form of questioning, much as in any profession to check if you are an imposter.

On your second point, the President had come directly from court where he was a magistrate. He had removed his Rotary pin so as not to suggest any favouritism.

Final point, a Rotarian, a 'very important man' and possibly a Mason, was on a DD charge. He tried to retain his licence as he was a 'very importy person' doing charity work. He got off lightly with a 14 month ban :) (well deserved)

chuks
15th Feb 2018, 08:54
I was surprised once to see a friend suddenly sporting a ring showing membership in the Masons. I asked him what was up with that, since we were both young CFIs, somewhat non-serious, and very much non-joiners of anything such as Kiwanis, Rotary International, or the local bowling club.

My friend just shot a sideways glance at the guy behind the counter, the guy who did the rostering, the guy who decided who upgraded, that sort of thing. Oh, yeah ... he was a Mason, as were several others in middle management! So this must have been just one more way to get ahead, for him, something that "could not hurt."

I had already been mobbed up with the Roman Catholic Church as a young man, something I was trying to get over, so that I thought joining the Masons was out for several good reasons, no matter how much it might have improved my chances at that little job. Dating the boss's daughter ditto; I have to eat with these hands.

On a much more serious note, have you all forgotten about "Propaganda Due" in Italy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

Outlaw biker clubs ... don't get me started. There was a recent case here in Germany against a group of Mongols. (The Mongols self-present as one-percenters, bad-ass bikers in competition with the Hells Angels and the Bandidos for control of drugs and prostitution and all that sort of dubious stuff.) It came out in court testimony that only one of the six Mongols on trial actually had a driving license for motorcycles!

There's a start-up German outlaw club for Turks called Osmanen Germania that has flat skipped the "biker" bit, even though some take them for a biker club: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/4w5ya9/meeting-germanys-newest-gang-the-osmanen-germania-876 You will notice that their Kutten do not have that little square patch reading "MC" for "Motorcycle Club." There's no pretense there of being into biking, which makes a nice change, I suppose.

sitigeltfel
15th Feb 2018, 10:34
I was signed into an RAOB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Antediluvian_Order_of_Buffaloes) Lodge once.

Am I tarnished?

;)

PDR1
15th Feb 2018, 11:42
On a much more serious note, have you all forgotten about "Propaganda Due" in Italy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due


They had a reputation for always being late to routine meetings. Well they used to keep their bankers hanging around, at any rate...

PDR

John_Reid
15th Feb 2018, 12:12
I was signed into an RAOB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Antediluvian_Order_of_Buffaloes) Lodge once.

Am I tarnished?

;)

Did you touch anything or anyone? Were you wearing gloves? Did you receive any knuckle crunching handshakes?

Think you maybe tarnished.

BehindBlueEyes
15th Feb 2018, 12:20
I was signed into an RAOB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Antediluvian_Order_of_Buffaloes) Lodge once.

Am I tarnished?

;)

Me too, but I signed into a TravelLodge. :eek:

I didnít do it to gain any career advantages or get away with a crime though.

PDR1
15th Feb 2018, 12:35
Me too, but I signed into a TravelLodge.

Well that alone gets you a medal for bravery...

PDR

chuks
15th Feb 2018, 13:10
That's not fair to say about P2, that they were always late. That time at Blackfriars Bridge it was the banker who was late; they called him "the late Roberto Calvi" then.

PDR1
15th Feb 2018, 15:40
Badum-tish!

We're playing all week, folks!

PDR

Krystal n chips
15th Feb 2018, 16:29
I was signed into an RAOB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Antediluvian_Order_of_Buffaloes) Lodge once.

Am I tarnished?

;)

Siti...not in the slightest old boy!

All those years pontificating with kindred spirits in the Mess ante-room will have more than sufficed in this respect.

Planemike
15th Feb 2018, 18:04
The problem that they perceive they have, is of their own making..... Do not have much sympathy with them.
My Father was a mason and freemasonry did nothing to improve our relationship. I am sad to say that.

annakm
18th Feb 2018, 13:59
Just curious, and I genuinely donít know this; can or are ethnic minorities able or welcome to join the masons?

Mac the Knife
18th Feb 2018, 14:42
Used to be a time when all the top (i.e. influential) London surgeons were on the square.

If you weren't a traveling man no-way you'd rise in the RCS(Eng.)

Mac

:cool:

racedo
18th Feb 2018, 16:11
Used to be a time when all the top (i.e. influential) London surgeons were on the square.

If you weren't a traveling man no-way you'd rise in the RCS(Eng.)

Mac

:cool:

That was pretty much in construction industry as well, Birmingham was badly infested as an acquaintance once told me.
His attempts to get something built went ok as he used a "local" firm to get planning permission, then he brought an outside North of England business in to do the construction and everything associated with it.
All the quotes from local firms matched very closely, North of England quote was 40% cheaper.

Pretty much every week he had daily visits from Council where everything was under scruitiny, even the most inane things.

Project Manager was an Scottish ex RSM who finally flipped half way through the project and grabbed 2 council guys by throat against a wall. Told them to send message to Lodge to F*** off or I will ensure photos of them accepting money at a specified hotel get published in a left wing newspaper.

No visits for 3 months and then they started again so armed with a video and tape recorder he started to record every visit. They then stayed away for good.

John_Reid
18th Feb 2018, 19:30
Used to be a time when all the top (i.e. influential) London surgeons were on the square.

If you weren't a traveling man no-way you'd rise in the RCS(Eng.)

Mac

:cool:

That chap Jack the Ripper was reputed to be a surgeon and a Mason. They never caught him. How strange and I wonder why?

ExXB
18th Feb 2018, 20:45
Just curious, and I genuinely donít know this; can or are ethnic minorities able or welcome to join the masons?

I suppose it depends on the particular lodge, however I understand the only prohibition is for atheists.

hiflymk3
18th Feb 2018, 21:24
I suppose it depends on the particular lodge, however I understand the only prohibition is for atheists.

Then thank god I'm an atheist and never been invited to join.

My father was invited to join but declined, he was Borough Treasurer on a local council. He was concerned that the masons could try to influence him. He was offered the job as County Treasurer but declined that and took early retirement instead. I wonder if apron strings were attached to that post.

parabellum
18th Feb 2018, 22:01
hiflymk3 - Did it ever occur to you that your father may have been offered the job of County Treasurer because he wasn't a Mason? Doesn't have the same conspiracy ring to it, does it? ;)

hiflymk3
18th Feb 2018, 22:39
hiflymk3 - Did it ever occur to you that your father may have been offered the job of County Treasurer because he wasn't a Mason? Doesn't have the same conspiracy ring to it, does it? ;)

A reasonable point but knowing my father, who enjoyed his work, I was surprised that he didn't take the offer. Maybe he told me he declined because he didn't get past the interview. Nevertheless, he was clear on his views on masonary.