Danny recognise this?

[NutLoose]

I took it on Saturday

Reid and Sigrist R.S.3 Desford-R.S.4 Bobsleigh at Spanhoe Lodge.

About it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_and_Sigrist_R.S.3

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4676/40174318782_2f2792151a_c.jpg

[treadigraph]

Has it flown yet Nutty?

[NutLoose]

I never asked, but I don't think so. I made a film on my camera of it running but i'm having problems uploading it.

[[email protected]]

Well it's called a 'Bobsleigh' so take the wings off it and see how a plucky British crew could handle it at the Winter Olympics - it would give the Germans something to think about:)

[treadigraph]

Must be close I hope - be nice to see it. I think it was operated out of Biggin Hill by Kemp's Aerial Surveys for a bit in the 1960s.

[beardy]

I believe that there is a Meteor adapted to be flown in the prone position in the museum at RAF Cosford.

[ian16th]

I believe that there is a Meteor adapted to be flown in the prone position in the museum at RAF Cosford.
It was there in 1982.

[beardy]

It was there in 1982.

Good to see it's been lying around then.

[NutLoose]

Yup well and truly bedded in.

[Herod]

I'm a volunteer at Cosford (dream job?), and I can confirm the prone-Meteor was still there at 16:00 yesterday. ;)

[Danny42C]

Nutloose (#1),

Never seen (or heard of) in my life ! From Wiki I quote: "Aircraft of comparable role, configuration and era ...... Gloster Meteor F8 "Prone Pilot" !!!!! (bit of a difference in power, weight and size, don't you think?)

Many moons ago I floated the idea that there had been a a WWII experiment to have a 4-motor elementary trainer, on the logical grounds that the lad would end up on fours anyway, so he might as well start on one (it was rubbish!)

On that reasoning, this could be a primary for those destined for the Wimpey, Mossie or Beau.

Looks right, so it should fly right.

Danny.

[Lima Juliet]

That’s one fugly aircraft. It looks better in civvy colours...

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0262/1393503-large.jpg

Even better when they hadn’t FUBAR’d the nose...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/R.S.3.jpg

If I was the owner I would try and turn her back to what she should have been.

This reminds me of the Phillips Speed Twin, which I also like:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Phillips_ST2_Speedtwin.jpg/1200px-Phillips_ST2_Speedtwin.jpg

[BEagle]

Danny42C wrote:
Many moons ago I floated the idea that there had been a a WWII experiment to have a 4-motor elementary trainer, on the logical grounds that the lad would end up on fours anyway, so he might as well start on one (it was rubbish!)

Actually there was a half-size 4-engined aircraft; it was fitted with 4 x 90 hp Pobjoy Niagara engines. This was the Short S.31, but it was built as a proof of concept for the Short Stirling rather than as a trainer.

[Nige321]

And, of course, this...

http://theballybomber.com/images/theballybomber_2013_0273.jpg

[spekesoftly]

According to my late father's log books, he made at least six flights in the Bobsleigh (from the prone position, including spinning) between July and September 1951, during his time as a test pilot at Aero Flight, RAE Farnborough.

Perhaps the following extract from his memoirs might be of some interest:-

Later in the year we had another interesting project. For some time there had been thoughts about how to help fighter pilots withstand the high G forces imposed during manoeuvres and it was realised that if they could be lying down rather than in a sitting position they could be subjected to much higher G forces before blacking out. It was therefore decided to investigate the practicalities of piloting an aircraft from a prone position, and a twin engined aircraft the Reid and Sigrist Desford was modified to incorporate a prone piloting position in the nose retaining the normal cockpit with dual controls in the centre fuselage. The special cockpit in the nose accommodated a pilot lying face down on a padded ramp with the flying controls operated by two handles below and ahead of his shoulders. The handles could be pushed forwards and pulled back together to move the elevators, tilted from side to side together to move the ailerons and moved laterally together to operate the rudders. Twin throttle levers to control the engines were mounted on the left side of the cockpit. There was also a padded chin rest to hold the head in a position to look straight ahead through the transparent nose of the aircraft. Our task was to fly the aircraft from the prone position and assess the practicability of this. All flights were made with another pilot in the conventional cockpit to operate the conventional controls when required. I and my colleagues made a number of flights from the prone position and found several major problems. Firstly it was very tiring to stay in the required position and attitude looking forward through the nose. On take off it was very difficult to keep straight along the runway due to lack of any reference point forward of the pilot’s viewpoint although we did find that painting a vertical line in the nose transparency was some help in this respect. The operation of the rudder control by hand was awkward and difficult to co-ordinate with the other controls. I did manage to achieve safe flight from take off to landing without having to fall back on the safety pilot but our general opinion was that this was not a practical way to control an aircraft. The most unnatural and alarming manoeuvre was spinning which involved plunging head first watching the ground below rotating at high speed and unable to apply proper corrective rudder due to the poor mechanical advantage of the hand operated control. This was where the safety pilot was essential!

[Danny42C]

spekesoftly (#15),

Taking up your Dad's opening remarks: one of the first "mods" which increased a pilot's tolerance to "G" might have been the two-level rudder "stirrup" rudder pedals on the "Spit" (not sure about the Hurricane). With your feet in the top "stirrups", you were in the crouch of a racing jockey, and it helped to minimise the pooling of blood in your legs.

Whether that was the intention is doubtful, but it would certainly have helped in air combat (said he, never having done any!)

Danny.

[treadigraph]

Just re-reading "Fly For Your Life" and while discussing his sampling of a captured 109 at Farnborough, Bob Tuck remarked that the 109 had its rudder pedals set higher which improved G tolerance, and he'd already had his Spitfire pedals extended upwards by about 6" for the same reason.

[Lima Juliet]

30 years later and the F16 is introduced with a 30 degree incline the other way comes in - increases g-tolerance by up to 1G over the previous seats but does give a few neck problems. However, a much better solutions to lay the other way rather than on your front - for comfort and the ability to look into the turn!!

https://www.pacificaviationmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/30-Degree-Seat-Lean-Back.jpg
You can look into the turn with this...

http://www.diseno-art.com/news_content/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Gloster-Meteor-F8-Prone-Pilot-cockpit.jpg
...but not in this unless you dislocate your neck!

[NutLoose]

It was one advantage Bader had, lacking legs he was able to withstand higher G, though I wouldn't recommend the procedure to anyone.

[ORAC]

RAF pilot’s practiced being legless for years. Many on APC, reputedly, even got airborne that way......

[NutLoose]

As did the Engineers..:E


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4696/39541372124_ba2a268d73_c.jpg

I had a reply from a fellow photographer


The Desford has all the CAA paperwork and is ready for flight along with the 2nd Argus, there (Richard Ellingworth owns the Argus that is a flier at this moment in time) He also owns the Nord which will also be returning to flight sometime in the future.

[AirportsEd]

Hi Spekesoftly,
Interesting to read those notes about flying the aircraft.
Did your father publish his memories...are those lines from a book or magazine?
Is there more to read?
Regards,
Ed

[thunderbird7]

Second that. This place can be a mine of interesting tales sometimes.

[jimjim1]

For anyone that hadn't heard of it - such as me,

That B-17 is a 1/3 scale aircraft that has been under construction since 1999.

18 years so far!

Wonder when the first flight is planned - and who is to fly it!

Oops- It has flown.

http://theballybomber.com/videos.html

TheBallyBomber.com | SPECS (http://theballybomber.com/specs.html)

SPECIFICATIONS
Bally's Bomber B-17G, ⅓ Scale

Wing Span: 34 ft. 7 in.
Length: 25 ft.
Tail Height: 6 ft. 10 in.
Power Plant: 240hp
Fuel Capacity: 42 gal.
Empty Weight: 1800 lbs. (Est.)
Cruising Speed: 110 kts. (Est.)
Crew: 1
Number Built: 1

[NutLoose]

Well, while I am here :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4759/38489056160_769b9cec3d_c.jpg

[spekesoftly]

NutLoose,

During your visit to Spanhoe, did you happen to notice if the prone pilot position in the R&S Bobsleigh still has its unique flying controls?

I suspect that they were probably removed when it reverted back to civilian use, but it would be interesting to know. I also wonder what flight instruments, if any, were provided for the prone pilot.

[NutLoose]

I didn't, it has a harness you can see through the window, but in its later life it was used as a camera ship so they may have been removed, did you see AirportsEd's question as he tried to pm you i believe.

[spekesoftly]

Thanks NutLoose.

AirportsEd and t'bird7:-

Thanks for your kind words, and glad you both enjoyed the read.

Ed - My father's memoirs have not been published, either in a book or magazine, as they were written for his family. In fact I didn't even know of their existence until after he had died, when we found them on his computer some ten years ago. There is quite a lot of aviation content, and it's mixed in with many personal and family recollections.